Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with the founder and CEO of I Love Being Black and Traveling Black, Kumi Rauf. Kumi sits down with us to talk about both of his companies and their collective vision of documenting black life and positivity. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lovebeingblack/https://www.instagram.com/trvlblk/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ilovebeingblackhttps://twitter.com/TRVLBLKFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lovebeingblack/https://www.facebook.com/TRVLBLK/Find out more about CBE/CBE Week here: https://www.cbeweek.com/Kumi’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kumirauf/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen up. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we spotlight movers and shakers who will be also speaking during CBE Week. Today, we are blessed to have Kumi Rauf. Kumi Rauf is an award-winning businessman with several recognitions under his belt, including being an officer and chair of the National Society of Black Engineers, a recipient of the Urban League Top 40 Under 40 Award, awarded Most Successful App Developer by Novacoast, and collegiate track and field athlete, so he dippin' on y'all. He has shared his knowledge and experience with a diverse mix of audiences via radio appearances, one-on-one seminars, conferences, television, and more. Welcome to the show, Kumi. How are you doing, sir?Kumi: Ah, man, I'm doing great. Thank you for that intro. I think I couldn't have done it better myself. Zach: Well, look, I find that--I find that hard to believe, but I'm also flattered, so thank you very much. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit more about yourself?Kumi: No, I think that was a good summation. My name is Kumi Rauf. I founded the I Love Being Black movement, which I'm sure we're gonna get into in a second, and, you know, everything I do is sort of centered around black positivity. Zach: That's awesome, man. So yeah, let's definitely get into it. So let's talk about I Love Being Black. What was the motivation behind founding that company, and what's your mission with it?Kumi: Okay, okay. So the motivation--I went to school, to college, at a place called the University of California Santa Barbara. They had about 2.7% black people there, and, you know, things would always happen. Like, there were racist occurrences that would happen on campus. Off-campus they had, like, Dress Up Like A Minority parties, things like that. So, you know what, I need to make a statement, and I need to do it in a way that's not tearing down someone else's community but lifting ours up, because what I realized is that I don't think the answer is trying to fix someone else, trying to fix someone else's community. I think the answer is in fixing ourselves and in building ourselves up. So the mission for I Love Being Black is positivity, awareness, and action amongst black people worldwide.Zach: Man, that's beautiful. And it's funny--so you said dress like a minority? So just like in that movie--hold on, don't tell me. It's the movie--Dear White People. Like that movie.Kumi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Zach: That's crazy, and the funny thing is in that movie, at the end, they show pictures of those real parties, and I don't know if UC Santa Barbara was in there, but they showed a lot of pictures. I know they showed SMU and some other colleges that do those. Man, that's crazy. It sounds as if I Love Being Black is all about, like, pouring back into self, self-reliance, and self-affirmation. That's awesome. So somehow, in spite of all of the work that you've been doing with I Love Being Black, you've also founded and you lead Traveling Black. So talk to us about that company and the inspiration behind that one.Kumi: Yeah, yeah. I mean, with I Love Being Black--so it started with just t-shirts, and that, you know, spun into a huge social media enterprise on Facebook. I Love Being Black--we have about 6 million fans on Facebook, I think 140,000 on Instagram, and so we started traveling to a bunch of different places around the world because, you know, most black people don't live in the U.S. They live outside the U.S. So we started, you know, going through the continent, going to Columbia, going to Brazil. Like, you know, even London and Paris and all kinds of other places like that, doing photoshoots and just kind of documenting black life and positivity in these different places, and, you know, we kept hearing, "Hey, you know, I see all these pictures on Facebook and all that, but, like, how can I go with you guys? Because my friends keep flaking. Each time I try to leave the country, X, Y, and Z." So we said, "You know what? Let's do a pilot trip," and we did a trip to Cartagena, Colombia, and just--you know, just to see if I can actually plan travel for people that are outside of my immediate organization, and it worked, you know? It worked out really well, and we kind of kicked it off from there. We did South Africa next, and then we did Cuba, and we just got back from Ghana.Zach: So that's incredible, man, and it's--to your point about most black people not even living in the U.S., you know, let me tell you a story about me being black and traveling while black. My wife and I celebrated our five-year anniversary. We went to Belize this past May, right?Kumi: Okay. Congratulations, brother.Zach: Thank you very much, man. So we go to Belize, and, you know, I'm ignorant. Genuinely, like, there's plenty of stuff I don't know, but when I go to Belize I was so taken aback at just how, like, everybody there was black, right?Kumi: Yeah.Zach: And they look like--they look like black Americans. Like, they don't--you know what I'm saying? But, you know, if you look at, like, the mainstream media, or you look at whatever, you just don't--you don't see us being portrayed front and center like that, and it was amazing to see, like, us being in a position of being, like, the majority. Like, that was crazy to me. A beautiful experience. It was just crazy, and it was--the other thing that was funny about my time when we were in Belize, we saw some other black folks, some of them who were also from my city, Houston, and just from D.C. and California, and we all just linked up, and it was like a family reunion. Like, we got out there, we having a good time, we're traveling, we're doing our thing, and so I guess--and so I guess my question is, you know, how does traveling black encourage exploration and adventure? And I say that because even just in--'cause I haven't been out of the country many times, but any time I go and I see more people that look like me, it just changes the entire dynamic. It feels--it feels different, and so I imagine Traveling Black kind of has a similar vibe. I'm curious, like, how do you all achieve that, and how do you all facilitate and drive that?Kumi: That's a good question, that's a good question. So what we do is typically we want to bring our money that we have over here and put it in the hands of someone else that looks like you somewhere else. So it doesn't make any sense to me to go to, like, a South Africa and do, like, a safari with somebody that's not black and I'm in Africa. That doesn't make any sense, but you're kind of assuming that you're gonna find all of these black people and all kinds of tourism efforts and stuff like that, but you don't, especially in places like South Africa, you know, Brazil, things like that. You have other people sort of telling your story. So I think that's really important to kind of annotate, because a lot of people in this tourism space, even in the black tourism space, they don't do that. You know? They just--you know, "Whoever shows up from the tourism office, or "These people that we contracted to do this thing is who we're gonna give money to," and I'm like, "That doesn't make any sense if over here we're preaching, you know, spend money with black people and black dollars, black hands type of thing, and then when we go abroad we don't, you know, embody that same thing." So that's something we really, really try to make sure that we do. So our guides are black, drivers are black, photographers, everybody. So I say all that to say this experience that we try to create and curate for people around the world, we try to make sure it's authentic, number one. Number two, we want you to learn a bunch of stuff, but number three, we want you to kick it and have fun too. It isn't just like, you know, open up a history book and, "Okay, on your left you see this, and this date and this time," and all that. Nah, we want to--we want to drink some rum and dive in the ocean and, you know what I'm saying, learn how to do the dances and all of this other stuff. We want to learn all of that stuff. Yeah, and then be safe obviously as well.Zach: Of course. There's a certain level of intentionality that you have to have in terms of driving and centering black identity and black experience, like, regardless of where you are, and so I would never--I didn't even think about that, about the fact that, you know, other people telling your story, even if you're in majority-black spaces, and how--but I can say that, man, when we have people that look like us and who share the same--who are part of the same diaspora involved in that, man, like, the experience is way different. There's just a certain level of community and familiarity and just touch, personal connection that is not there otherwise, and so that's incredible.Kumi: Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, there's this whole idea that, like, Africans don't like African-Americans, and I'm like--you know, I don't know where that started from or who started it and all of that, but I know that I've been to 12 different African countries, and I'm considered family in half of those, and people love me and love us in all of those. You know? They're waiting for us to come back and just go there--don't bring the negative aspects of being from the U.S., you know? Don't bring all that stuff with you. You know, all the ignorance and stuff that we may not even know that we embody. Don't bring all of that stuff, and try to have an open mind. You know, try the foods. Learn something about the language. Be genuinely interested about those people, and they're gonna welcome you with open arms every time.Zach: I 100% believe that. I do think it's easy for us to kind of, like, get in our cynical bag, right? And then, like, make assumptions based off of just stereotypes and things that we've seen, and I also think, man, you know, just as a side note, I do think sometimes, man, like, Fake Woke Twitter be messing us up. Like, we end up kind of being a little too negative. It's like, "Let's just give it a try first." 'Cause when I went out to Belize, it was love everywhere I went. I had a phenomenal time. Like, everything [inaudible] was great, right? And I've heard amazing stories from people who also--they'll travel to South Africa, they'll travel to Zambia, they'll travel to Nigeria and Cambodia. Like, they'll travel various places and see us, right? And have a wonderful time. I think that--so that's a great point. So let me ask you this. Where can people learn more about I Love Being Black and Traveling Black?Kumi: Okay. Definitely you can, you know, touch base with our Facebook page for I Love Being Black or Instagram page for I Love Being Black. Just look up--the short tag is just LoveBeingBlack, no spaces. Just @LoveBeingBlack, and same thing with Traveling Black, and then the short tag is @TRVLBLK. So that's TRVLBLK for Traveling Black, and, you know, we try to post up pictures, and we definitely want to inspire people, you know? Just get that sense of wanderlust, but we want to go deeper than that obviously, and we want to take it into those black spaces and these stories that haven't really been told, and, you know, a lot of times there's more we need to unlearn then there is we need to learn, you know? Because if you don't unlearn these certain things, you know, these things that you may not even know--these stereotypes that you have, X, Y, and Z, you're not gonna be able to learn the correct thing in the future. Zach: Nah, that's so true, and it's interesting because of just the way that American society works. A lot of the things that we need to learn anew we won't really fully grasp unless we go and experience it for ourselves, you know what I mean?Kumi: Yeah.Zach: So that's incredible. Well, look, we're gonna make sure that we have all of your--we'll make sure we have all of the information on Traveling Black and I Love Being Black in the show notes, so for everyone listening, make sure you click--you click those links in the show notes to learn more about that. Where can people learn more about what's happening in 2019? Or rather let me ask you this way - what do you have planned in 2019? What's on the horizon? What are you excited about? What are you excited for folks to see, and what are you excited to share? Kumi: We have lists of--we have a great list of trips that we're gonna run down for 2019. Let me--first, in a month we're going to South Africa. We're gonna be there during the Afropunk Festival [inaudible]. So we're doing Johannesberg, Cape Town. Just gonna have a real good time. South Africa is, like, very near and dear to my heart. If I leave--I live in Oakland, California right now. If I leave Oakland, I'm most likely gonna live in Johannesberg. So we're doing that, and then I think three days after I get home we're going to Cuba, on the Experience Cuba trip, in January, wrapped around the Havana jazz festival. We always try to wrap our trips around some sort of event or festival that's, like, a cultural aspect of wherever we are. So let me see. We're going back to South Africa for the Jazz fest in Cape Town in March, and then I think the trip that I'm most excited about for next year is Ghana, because the president of Ghana dedicated 2019 as the year for the diaspora to come back home, and that's huge. Literally the president.Zach: That's crazy. That's crazy.Kumi: Yeah. Yeah, right? I mean, he's like, "Look, this is the year y'all need to come back home." You know, it doesn't have to be come back home to live and blah blah blah, but that is an option, and once you get there and you look at things and you're like, "Oh, wait a minute," and you sort of realize in your head, "This is an option." I've been to Ghana a few times, and each time I see a different opportunity. I'm like, "All right, so not just on cultural level, but for business, you know?" For setting up shop here. For doing something. For leaving your mark in other kinds of ways. So yeah, we're extremely excited about that trip. That's in August, and then we may introduce a new trip next year to Brazil in November. November is Black Consciousness Month in Brazil. They don't do Black History Month. They do Black Consciousness during the whole month of November, and then the day of Black Consciousness is November 20th. There was this really important figure in their history named Zumbi dos Palmares. He basically was like their MLK in terms of popularity, not in terms of what he did. You know, he was a freedom fighter. He helped a lot of people escape slavery into what they called quilombos, runaway enslaved encampments for free Africans. And, you know, he was caught, and he was killed, but they celebrate that on that day, November 20th, and there's a huge parade, and it's all cultural, and there's drumming and music and speeches and Portuguese, and, oh, man, it's amazing.Zach: Wow, that sounds incredible. So I'm gonna definitely, again, make sure to encourage our listeners to check the show notes so you can stay up to date with Traveling While Black--Traveling Black, excuse me, and I Love Being Black. Like, this is amazing. So before we let you go, any parting thoughts, final words, or shout outs?Kumi: Yeah. I will say that--I think most of what we need to do is just a mental shift. Once we shift mentally, everything else sort of--it doesn't automatically fall in line but, you know, it's a lot easier to be attained, right? So if we stop thinking of Africa as one place, that's a mental shift, right? That's a mental shift, because Africa is not one place. It's 54 different places, you know? It's the continent with the most amount of countries in the world, you know what I'm saying? And they have, you know, thousands of languages and customs and all kinds of different stuff. It snows in certain places. It's hot in other places. You'll have greenery in certain places, and there's--you know, there's a desert in other places. It's got every single climate, and, you know, a vast amount of diversity in the types of people and the things that you're gonna find there. If we start thinking of the different places in Africa like that, I think it's gonna open up a lot of different options. If you want to go on some luxury trip or something like that, they have all that, you know? Go to Zanzibar, you know what I mean? The richest square mile in Africa is Sandton, in Johannesberg, right outside of Johannesberg, you know what I mean? So if you want to do that you can. If you want to go on a backpacker thing and save money, you can do that too, you know? So don't only think of Africa as like, "Oh, we need to go on some sort of missionary trip," or, you know, bring some toilet paper to donate to people and this, this, and that. They're doing a bunch of amazing things. They're on blockchain technology. I'm on a team out of Rwanda that's leading the charge called Africa Gen, you know? So they're doing a bunch of stuff, even some stuff that we're not doing. Sometimes I find technologies over that we don't even have here, and I'm like, "Yo." We just need to learn more about each other and just open up that line of communication, you know?Zach: Man, absolutely. Again, what I'm hearing more and more is just go. Experience. Like, that's what I'm hearing. Well, look, this was awesome. Well, look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, a special series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about CBE, check out their website - www.cbeweek.com. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and make sure to follow CBE on Instagram at ExperienceCBE. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you have been listening to Kumi Rauf, CEO and founder of Traveling Black and I Love Being Black. Peace.Kumi: Peace, y'all.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with the woman herself, Angela Johnson, to discuss CBE and its vision to unify and elevate the black community.Find out more about CBE/CBE Week here: https://www.cbeweek.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/experiencecbe/Twitter: https://twitter.com/experiencecbeFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/experienceCBE/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/coalitionofblackexcellence/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing in a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual, week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we spotlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week, and today we have the founder and CEO of the Coalition of Black Excellence, Angela Johnson. Angela, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.Angela: Good. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.Zach: We'll wax a little bit poetic about your organization, its origins, on how we even got connected, because I think all of it comes together and really paints a [picture] into what the Coalition of Black Excellence is all about. Angela: Yeah, absolutely. I love the story of the Coalition of Black Excellence because it is truly a testament of really what happens when individuals work together to uplift the community and use their skills for that purpose. So it kind of all started in 2017 with a desire from a number of employees at different organizations, at black employee resource groups at a number of companies, who really just were looking at their Black History Month planning, and, you know, we have this idea of--it's very simple. What if we work together to sort of amplify our impact and, you know, what can we do to collaborate, to tell a different story that really is uplifting to the black community, highlighting excellence in the black community, and just is something that's really inspirational? So that was sort of the basis of conversation with a number of people, even at Uber Hue, where I work for my day job group, and once we sort of had that idea of--once we had that idea of, you know, "Let's collaborate," it was a really easy conversation to have with other black employee resource groups and diversity and inclusion committees and community organizers across companies in the Bay. So how--after we sort of had this big idea, we were, you know, kind of like, "Okay, well, what does this look like? How does this collaboration come together, and what's the goal?" And so the Week idea really came from--I grew up in the DC area, going to the Congressional Black Caucus and the Legislative Conference in DC, and I was just always inspired by how black professionals across, you know, a number of industries who focus on policy and politics come together to, you know, network, to talk about different ways that they can work together, to address unique issues impacting the black community. So that's where the idea for the Week came from, and, you know, our theory was pretty simple, that if we could kind of concentrate our time to one week, that amplifies the opportunity for us to be in the same room and network and kind of strategize collectively. And then after that it really became a lot of--a lot of people just bringing their expertise and their contributions to the table in different ways, which I think is really where this sort of coalition idea came from. The different companies would basically offer, you know, their expertise or their hosting capabilities or, you know, they had curated an event in a certain area. So some had curated an event in entrepreneurship or [inaudible]. You know, they're willing to open up to the community or open their space up to the community, and so it just became this really beautiful story of sort of everyone coming together to offer their expertise or their talents or their contributions for that week, and then my goal really was just--or my role was really just to kind of organize it all and, you know, ensure that people who had similar ideas worked together. You know, give 'em a day for the week and a time of the week. After the success of this year--so 2018 was our first year. We had 14 events over the course of the week. We did it the last week of February this year as well. Black Joy Parade was another non-profit organization that we got partnered or connected with during sort of our collaboration with a number of companies that was planning a huge parade in Oakland that really was focused on celebrating black culture and black artists, and it was just perfectly aligned to, you know, [ending?] events. You know, all-black companies took the lead of different events that I help facilitate, just their days, but then the Uber Hue team really took charge of the gala. So the gala was on that Saturday of the week, and the goal there was to really, you know, sort of be a more celebratory opportunity for us, to not only celebrate black excellence but to honor trailblazers, and then to give back. So we had six non-profits that we honored as a part of the week, and, you know, we picked a theme. It was non-profits promoting STEM and entrepreneurship in the black community. Once we identified the six non-profits, we featured them as a part of the Week, and then all of the money that we raised as a part of the gala went to those non-profits, because, you know, there was no organization associated with the Coalition of Black Excellence. It was just this conglomerate of black professionals at different companies who were coming together. So we donated all of the money and gave it all away, and then after that it really--just going through all of that process and, you know, figuring out sponsors, and we had a lot of great sponsors contribute to the gala and other events. It made me realize it was really important to formalize the structure to make it easier for people to engage and for us to be able to really, you know, move forth our mission that now is to unify and elevate the black community. So yeah, so it's an exciting path.Zach: It's extremely exciting, and, you know, I'm curious--in season 1 of Living Corporate, there were various guests who may have in their title "black" in some way, and I would always ask them, "Why do you have Black Texas Magazine?" Or "Why do you have Black this or Black that?" So help me understand why it was important for you to call the organization the Coalition of Black Excellence and not just the Coalition of Excellence or the Group of Really Cool People Doing Stuff. Like, what was the--what was the point in specifying or highlighting race within the title of your organization. Angela: Yeah, 'cause I think the--as I mentioned, the [inaudible] aspirations of the group that came together was really planning Black History Month Event, so that was sort of one thing. Like, the group that came together, they were all people who were--in some way, they were personally identified with being a member of the black community or really wanted to address some issue in the black community or highlight something, you know, amazing that's going on in the black community. So all of the people who came together for the founding of the organization were motivated by issues impacting the black community. Me personally, I think for--for me, you know, I identify as a black woman, and, you know, it's a community of people that, you know, I just really want to see come together and work together to amplify, you know, our impact and to address issues that I think are unique to the black community. I mean, it's not that--you know, there are a lot of issues that other communities have as well, but I think that there are some that--sometimes it's helpful to have people who understand some of those issues or have a personal experience that relates to it. And it's a range. It's not necessarily just issues, but just anything impacting the black community. I think sometimes it's helpful to have people who identify with being in that community to be the ones to kind of also help amplify that voice.Zach: What I'm excited about and what I think is important when I look at the Coalition of Black Excellence and I look at the website, I look at the information, I think it highlights the reality that the non-white experience is not monolithic and that the black experience is unique and that it's important, and there's nothing wrong with specifying and really zooming in on black perspectives, black experiences, because the black experience historically is unique, juxtaposed to other non-majority experiences. So that's great. So I'm really excited about the guests that will be a part of the Speaker Series. At a larger level, I'm excited about--of course Living Corporate is just really pumped about being a part of and working with the Coalition of Black Excellence with this. Let me ask you this though - what are you most excited about with CBE Week? Like, you know, what was the first one like? What do you feel like went well there? What are you excited about coming up on this one in 2019?Angela: The thing that I'm excited the most about CBE is I think it's gonna be a great opportunity to really unify black professionals from various backgrounds, generations, from, you know, different industries, and I think--you know, I'm a lawyer. I typically go to a lot of legal conferences for black professionals. I know there's a lot of great black professional conferences for tech, for business, you know, for engineering, for a lot of different areas, but what I think is exciting about CBE is that we're really trying to have sort of a really broad outreach in terms of who we want to reach in the black community, and I don't know if there's--I've never been personally been to a lot of spaces where, you know, in one space you can hear from experts in health and well-being and finance and entrepreneurship and tech and life sciences and music and art and entertainment and education in social impact and government and legal, and you can really--really get the spread of issues that are impacting the black community. It really is about, you know, sort of this 360 professional development experience. So that's one thing I'm really excited about, just to see all of that black excellence in the same room across all of these different perspectives. And to your point that you mentioned earlier, you know, there is--there is a lot of diversity within the black community, and so I think it'll be beautiful to see it all in one space, and then to take it to the next level, for us to start figuring out how to develop organic relationships so that we can start to work together to figure out, you know, how we can address some of the issues that we're seeing impacting the black community. So that's really the Thursday thing that I'm excited about. The Friday of the summit, of the two-day summit--which, I should add, is an addition from what we did last year--so the Friday portion is also exciting because that day to me is really about creating sort of an ecosystem of support, and, you know, it's more about, you know, looking--we have a legal pitch day where we have in-house counsel sitting with outside counsel who are African-American or who identify as being in the black community to engage whether or not there's an opportunity to hire those individuals for work, which I think is a lot--is really important to a lot of companies who are interested in improving their supply diversity programs. And then we have a health and well-being fair where it's gonna give an opportunity for black professionals to really hear from black therapists and black doctors. The vendor showcase and career fair, an opportunity for companies to showcase their products and engage with individuals in the black community, as well as recruiting these, you know, excellent black professionals. So it's exciting to see a day that has such a broad reach across different sectors and just will allow people to, you know, experience black excellence in a different kind of way. Zach: That's just so cool, and I think it really reminds me that the way that we typically, or that we're--I think professionally that we're conditioned to think about our jobs and we think about industries, which is often very siloed and sectored and, "Well, I should only talk to people in this space because I'm in this space" or "I should only talk with people in that space 'cause I'm in that space." We as black professionals can't really afford to adopt that mindset because there's not many of us in any of these individual spaces, and so the more we can be collaborative and cross-functional in how we think, how we operate, how we network, the better. And so what you're describing when you're talking about CBE Week, I agree it's extremely exciting, because we're creating bridges, not only from an inter-generational perspective but also from a professional or industry specialization perspective too. So that's really cool, and it really reminds me CBE Week has some major sponsors. And let me just take a step back. So when you and I first met and I told you, "On the LinkedIn profile I got little pocket squares and stuff, but don't let that fool you. I'm very country," and, like, I don't meet and see a lot of black folks, especially on the coast, 'cause I'm from the South, right? To the point we've both been making, the black experience is extremely diverse, and so it was so interesting when I met you and you were like--you worked for Uber then somebody else, then worked for Facebook and, like, Amazon. Like, all these major names, and again, I work for--I'm in a big firm consulting and everything like that so I'm not trying not to, like poo-poo myself, but I was just looking at all these names and looking at these black folks connected to these very large companies and the sponsorships. And so I'm curious, how were you able to build those relationships and connections?Angela: Yeah, it's really honestly the volunteers. So CBE, I should add, is an all-volunteer-run organization. We probably have 50 to 60 volunteers, and nearly all of them are black professionals at various companies or community organizations or schools, and they're not just in the Bay Area anymore. We have quite a few that have spread throughout the U.S. as well. But yeah, between our advisory board and our volunteers, who are spread throughout, I think it's really a lot of people who get the mission, get what we're trying to do, and support it wholeheartedly. Yeah, to your point earlier about, you know, just the black professionals coming together and using those--you know, using their talents and, you know, not being siloed, I mean, honestly, the CBE story is really that. Like, our marketing lead, for example, does marketing--I think she's the marketing director at Forbes, and, you know, we had a comms person who focused on, you know, our comms work, and, you know, we had tech people from Apple and other companies, and so I feel people who, you know, are at these different companies who have these skill sets, applying them to CBE and, you know, providing their time, which is making it easy for us to sort of move quickly, right? 'Cause--I mean, I'm a lawyer. There's so much I don't know about design, about marketing, about, like, even--honestly, like, the non-profit filings and getting all the non-profit paperwork. Like, that took lawyers too who were interested in, like, the mission and really wanting to--lawyers from Winston & Strawn, [inaudible] Taylor, to, you know, use those skills and, you know, offer them for free for, you know, uplifting the community. So I think we're just really fortunate to have a lot of volunteers who are connected to these companies and who are not only willing to give their time and their energy but are also willing to make the asks, the sponsorship asks, which, you know, at the end of the day is crucial. Zach: Super crucial.Angela: Yeah, to be able to fund all of this, and I think for us it's more crucial because the socio-economic gap that we really want to bridge--I mean, the main story is just access. I think a lot of people don't have access to these really amazing world-class professional development experiences because the cost is just too high, and so we're really aiming to use the sponsorship dollars to, you know, cover all of the costs, and not have to pass those costs down to the individual to attend. So my dream for 2020 is that CBE's summit will be completely free to the community and that it's completed sponsored by, you know, all of our great sponsors and paid for by our great sponsors. 2019 unfortunately we're--you know, we're not quite there, so we're gonna have a modest ticket price, but in the future that's definitely where we're going, and I think it's just so great to have sponsors and donors that get it and, you know, are supportive of it.Zach: No, absolutely. Now, let me ask you this. Where can people learn more about the Coalition of Black Excellence? And then, more specifically, about CBE Week?Angela: Yeah. So they can go to www.CBEWeek.com. Our registration will be opened up tomorrow actually for the summit, for the vendor showcase, for the gala. We'll be keeping it updated with speakers as they come in. You know, we're getting a ton of great speakers, as I'm sure you're aware since you're interviewing them all.Zach: That's right. [laughs]Angela: [laughs] But yeah, so we'll be updating that as well, but yeah, CBEWeek.com, and then you can also follow us on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn, where ExperienceCBE is our handle. Zach: And when is CBE Week? What are the dates for CBE Week?Angela: So CBE Week will take place February 18th to 24th. Monday is gonna be a volunteer day that's gonna focus on a number of volunteer projects throughout the day. Tuesday and Wednesday are gonna be more like 2018, where different companies host events that will be open to the community. The actual CBE summit that covers the different panel topics will happen February 21st and 22nd. The career fair and vendor fair will be that Friday, the 22nd, of the CBE summit. The gala will be on Saturday, the 23rd, and we're partnering with the United Negro College Fund this year for the gala, which should be exciting. Zach: Wow.Angela: Yeah. And then Sunday, again, will be the Black Joy Parade in Oakland. So the CBE summit will take place at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in San Francisco, and then the other events throughout the week will take place throughout the Bay.Zach: This is--this is incredible. So before we get out of here, do you have any parting words or shout outs?Angela: A huge shout out to all of the organizations that are collaborating with us. So that's one thing I forgot to mention, that there's a lot of organizations, community organizations, like Traveling While Black, Our Collective, Toasted Life, Black Joy Parade, UNCF. There's so many organizations that are coming together, which I think is also a beautiful story, because, you know, we could all be competitive and try to fight for time and money, but this is really actually--you know, it's been completely the opposite experience. We've really been super collaborative, and it's been beautiful just to see the different organizations come together and host events throughout the week and, you know, work together in different ways. So yeah, so I think this will be an exciting time, and I hope to see everyone there. Zach: Absolutely. So this is the thing--so Angela, I'm gonna say this on the show. I want you to hear this while our audience hears this. Please don't underestimate the impact that you're making. Your point around access and the level of collaboration that the Coalition of Black Excellence is achieving here and already has achieved is incredible. You're absolutely right in that so often times you can kind of get caught up in competing against one another and trying to, you know, "I want to be Mr. Such-and-Such," or Ms. Such-and-Such, as opposed to really working together for a collective goal to achieve a unified vision, and so that is incredible here, and I'm just honored to be a part of this. I'm honored to have you here. We're gonna drop some air horns right here. Angela: [laughs]Zach: And we're gonna make sure that everyone has all of the information in the show notes, and then, folks, as you're listening to this, make sure that you realize this is the Speaker Series that you're listening to, Angela Johnson, Coalition of Black Excellence, and make sure that you continue to stay tuned with us, folks, because we're gonna continue to spotlight the speakers that are gonna be a part of this. Again, the dates are in February. You'll have all the details in the show notes. Make sure you continue to follow us, and we'll continue to drop information as it's released and updates as the Coalition of Black Excellence makes them. Now, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod. Remember, you can follow the Coalition of Black Excellence on Instagram at ExperienceCBE, and then you can follow them and keep up with all of their organizational updates on their website, www.CBEWeek.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Angela Johnson, CEO and founder of the Coalition of Black Excellence. Peace. Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

On the first installment of Living Corporate’s CBE Week Special Speaker series, we have the pleasure of sitting down with strategist, leader, entrepreneur, educator, and mentor Adamaka Ajaelo to discuss her program, Self-eSTEM, and its vision to provide young women of color strong support models while supporting their pursuit to achieve a successful career in the STEM field.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. , we have the pleasure of sitting down with movers and shakers across the industry to discuss their unique programs and visions. This is a series promoting CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement. CBE Week runs from February 18-24 and will be located in the Bay Area!Find out more about CBE/CBE Week here: https://www.cbeweek.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/experiencecbe/Twitter: https://twitter.com/experiencecbeFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/experienceCBE/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/coalitionofblackexcellence/

In our Season 1 recap episode, we discuss the lessons we've learned over the course of the season, some of our favorite episodes, our Favorite Things, AND tease a little Season 2 content that's coming your way in 2019!Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateChris Price's new EP: https://itunes.apple.com/bz/album/good-evening-ep/1436626656TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to the Season 1 wrap-up. We out here.Ade: Yeah. Yeah, we sure are. So what are we gonna talk about today?Zach: Okay, so we're gonna talk about lessons learned...Ade: Aye.Zach: Some of our favorite episodes...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughing] Okay. Favorite Things...Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay.Ade: I'm just trying to be your hype man here. Like, I really don't understand why you're taking this so hard. Let's go.Zach: It's just funny. I think maybe some of it is, like, cultural differences, right? 'Cause, like, "aye--" I don't know, "aye" is pretty common across the black diaspora.Ade: I feel like in the diaspora you say "aye," and that's, like, a cue for somebody to really--Zach: To get--to get hyper.Ade: To get hyper, yes. I wasn't--I wasn't trying to ruin the rating of our--of our show here, so.Zach: No, no, no. I mean, "aye" is cool, it's just I think--I think a southern "aye"--we can talk about this maybe another time, but I feel as if if you're in the south and you say "aye," and if you're in the--I don't know. I feel like the "ayes" mean different things. Maybe not.Ade: No, I hear you. Now that you say it, I realize that, like, "aye" can also be like, "Okay, bro. You're wilin'."Zach: Aye, yeah. Exactly. So anyway. "Aye" can also be, like, a sound of acknowledgement and appreciation, kind of like how I just did it.Ade: Right.Zach: I don't know. Black language and just--black and brown language frankly is just so deep and rich. It's really cool.Ade: I love it.Zach: Now, where were we? Oh, yes. Okay, so Favorite Things. We definitely want to give out some thank yous, right?Ade: Most definitely, most definitely.Zach: Right, right, right, and then we have a few house-cleaning administrative things that we want to talk to you about as we--as we kind of take this season break and get into season two. So with that being said, lessons learned. Ade, what are some of the--Ade: Oh, I go first?Zach: You go first. What are some of the lessons you've learned in this?Ade: Aye. Oh, they are varied, they are plenty, and some I think I'm still in the midst of learning, but I think my top three takeaways from this whole process of--you know, from ideation, which was largely you--which was mostly Zach--and coming together, building a team and growing as a collective, I think the top three things that I've learned--one is to speak up. Closed mouths do in fact never get fed. Your mouth is closed? You get no bread. See? I tried to rhyme. See? See what I did there?Zach: Bars.Ade: Something-something-something-something. But yeah, if you do not in fact speak up for yourself, and that is in every facet of your life but it's even more important in your professional spaces. If you do not speak up for yourself, if you are not your own best advocate, if you do not find yourselves in the rooms where, you know, they're making those decisions and they're making the plays that you want to be making, and if you're not actively putting yourselves in those spaces and then speaking up about what you need more to grow, what you need more to succeed, it's not--it's not gonna be a great time. A great time will not be had by all, mostly you, and the reason I think for that is because people can't read your mind. People can't help you if you are not willing to, you know, point people at the issues and the places which you could use that assistance. See what I'm saying?Zach: I so agree. I think that, you know, it's not about--and when you said, like, "Closed mouths don't get fed," it's not because there's not food there, it's just that, like, everybody else is focused on eating too. So most times, you're gonna have to open your own mouth to eat. And that whole point around just speaking up and being vocal and putting yourself into comfortable positions, putting yourself out there, is just kind of part and parcel. Like, I don't know if I've ever even seen, like, any project be successful with someone just kind of, like, waiting for everything to come to them.Ade: Right, right. What about you?Zach: I think for me the biggest--one of the biggest lessons learned is that you miss all the shots that you don't take, right? And I know that's very cliche, but it's true. We had some--we had some amazing opportunities to interview some really great guests this past season, and then also just network with a bunch of people that we didn't--that we did not interview on the show but that we shared the idea of Living Corporate with and who they were really receptive too, and we have some things coming in the future, in 2019, that we're really excited about, all because of us just putting ourselves out there. And so, you know, I'm thinking about the Lakers and, you know, LeBron, the GOAT. Yes, that's right. I said it. The GOAT.Ade: I do not disagree. At least the basketball GOAT.Zach: Okay. Yeah, no. Definitely the basketball GOAT, and he's also a super GOAT when it comes to social activism, but regardless, one of my favorite Lakers is actually Kobe, but it's not because I think he's the best Laker. I don't, but I do--what I loved about his game was the fact that he would just shoot it, man, and he would make really ill-advised shots, but his mindset was like, "Look, I'ma shoot it, and I'ma make some and I'ma miss some," and it was the--it was his lack of fear when it comes to failure, right? And I think that often times we don't really look at failure as a genuine growth and development opportunity. I think some of that is because of us as just black and brown people. Failure is not an opportunity to grow. Failure is just failure, 'cause we don't have the same privileges and access to really learn and grow from our failure. When we fail, we just fail, but I think it's important for us in this era, especially as black and brown creatives, to really embrace failing forward, and I know that Matthew Manning with Gumbo, we had him on a couple--just a couple weeks ago, he talked about that too. So yeah, that was a big one for me, and in fact--hold on. Let me not--let me not forget this. We actually got some questions in that I think would be good for us to put in our lessons in this Lessons Learned section from--Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, from social media. We've got some people to ask us some questions.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone said, "What is your biggest takeaway from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate?" So I feel like we can kind of roll that into a Lessons Learned. What was one of your biggest takeaways from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate this season, Ade?Ade: Ooh. There were some amazing ones actually, and I think it's kind of like an aggregate of thoughts, but ultimately it's that you need to be intentional about your career, and I think there's a common thread that kind of ties all of these thoughts together, and I think it is that you need to be intentional. And that is not to say--well, first I want to address--before I get too distracted about answering that question I do want to address something. You were talking about the Kobe Bryant shots. We are not saying you should make ill-advised shots in your career. Don't take risks--don't let your mouth write a check that your skills cannot cash.Zach: Amen. Thank you, yes. Good cleanup on that, yes.Ade: Yeah. Like, don't get up there somewhere and be like, "Yeah, I can totally stand up this project in a week, because Living Corporate told me that I can, and I should say wild things at work." Don't do that. Do not do that, but we are saying that, especially for women, especially for black and brown women, you are so much more qualified than you give yourself credit for, and part of life is in taking the risk. If you are always prepping to be perfect, you are never, ever, ever going to take the shot. So yeah, that's take #1 in response to that. Take #2 I think is to be intentional. Part of being able to take those risks is in knowing that you've done the prep work, right? So I can't just walk in to anybody's office today and be like, "I want to be your CTO." They'll be like, "Who let this person in?" And also, "How quickly can you let her back out?" Not because they want to be cruel, but because they're being realistic.Zach: Yeah, but you're not ready.Ade: Correct, but I do know that in 20 years I am going to be somebody's CTO because I am going to be making all of the steps that I need. Or maybe CEO. We'll see.Zach: Straight up. Speak it. No, real talk.Ade: But the point is that you make all of the decisions now, you prep now, you put all of your ducks in a row essentially so that your life doesn't just happen to you, so that your career doesn't just happen to you. Many of the most successful people that I know made very intentional decisions. Like, for example--I'm gonna use my partner as an example, and I hope she doesn't get mad at me, but by our bedside table she has this framed "What do you want to be when you grow up?" sort of fill in the blanks paper, and on there she has--I think this is from when she was in fourth or fifth grade, and on there she said she wants to be a lawyer like Thurgood Marshall or Johnnie Cochran, and she ordered her steps in such a way that she ended up going to Howard University and University of Laverne, both of which were universities that both of those people attended, right? So it wasn't just that you make decisions about your life and then hope that it happens to you, it's that you work. You put in the effort. You put in all of the time and energy required to get you to those places, and yes, you will of course succeed. Well, God willing, and hopefully capitalism doesn't get in your way, but you succeed because you've thought your life through, you've thought your career through, you've thought your path through, and if what you're looking for is an escape plan, you've thought that through as well so that you're not suffering on the other side of it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and, you know, to your point, it definitely was oversimplification with the Kobe analogy and--like, that was a really, really good cleanup, Shaq. That was great because you--yes.Ade: You're totally welcome.Zach: No, it was--no, it was dope. Because it's funny, in saying that what we also dismiss or rather what we ignore or underplay in that shooting our shot with getting some of the guests that we were able to get, and we're just more than honored and excited about the guests that we have for y'all for season two, is the fact that we spent hours upon hours and weeks upon weeks as a team in really, like, clarifying our mission, our purpose, getting our branding together, our language, the logo work. Like, there was a lot, and there is a lot that goes behind this very, you know, perhaps to a lot of y'all just, like, very simple, like, straight-forward show and concept, and it took time to, like, really build those things, and so there was a lot of preparation that went into it. So before I put an email together to send to DeRay or Beto O'Rourke or J Prince or, you know, a CEO or whoever it may be, there was a lot of things that we had that we could stand on to justify why I'm in this person's inbox or why I'm in this person's DMs. Now I'm gonna sound like I'm actually a Kobe stan, and I'm really not, but really to kind of go back to my initial analogy, Kobe didn't just show up at the game and just shoot those to us seemingly crazy shots. Like, he put up thousands of shots before and after every game, and in practice he's shooting thousands of these shots. He's practicing these shots. So when it's game time, literally when it's game time, and he pulls up a fadeaway over, like, three people, like, to us it looks like he just randomly threw it up, but no, like, he's been practicing that, and so--and actually, kind of to answer the question--kind of to go back to what you were talking about and kind of answering this question that was submitted to us, one of the biggest things I learned from our guests was that a lot of times we'll see--like, we see the glory, but we don't know the story, right? So, like, we see people who are like, "Man--oh, I work with HBO." Like, we spoke with Emily Miethner, who is the CEO of FindSpark, and she was like, "Yeah, we had a partnership," and she named all of these huge brands, but, like, if you just dig, like, a second deeper, you'll find out she's been doing this for, like, a decade. Like, FindSpark is blowing up now, but it's been years in the making of her building this. The same thing like when you talk to Janet Pope, who's the leader of diversity and inclusion and social responsibility for Capgemini, which is a global consulting firm--you know, you'll talk to her. You may see her in France or see her all around the world doing some really fancy stuff, but, like, her career is 12 years in the making, right? There's a lot of work that goes behind that. So yeah, no, for sure on that. We have another question. The next question, which I think is a really good one, is...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm sorry. That's like my go-to. I don't even think about it. It just, like--the "aye" is from--it's from my soul. It, like, spawns directly from...Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. It's good. I like it. So "What is in store for the next season and when can we expect you back?"Ade: Oh, wow. I mean, listen to this episode. Listen all the way to the end. You'll have some answers by the time the episode ends.Zach: For sure. No, for sure. Definitely listen to this episode, listen to it all the way to the end. Don't fast forward to the end 'cause, like, we kind of need the clicks. Like, we definitely want the download data, but, I mean, if you want to fast forward to the end, I mean, I'm not mad at you, but...Ade: And also it hurts my feelings when people skip past me, so.Zach: Who skips past--who skips past you?Ade: Well--so I'm a small person. Okay, [inaudible]--Zach: Oh, I see. Go ahead.Ade: Ooh.Zach: [laughs] No, it's just that it came together quickly when you said that. You were saying literally.Ade: No, no, no. You agreed to that way too quickly. Now I kind of want to fight. What? Wow.Zach: [laughs] Go ahead with your story. Go ahead. I'm listening.Ade: Okay. So I was at a bar, and I ordered a whiskey ginger. I think I actually ordered a Manhattan. No, an old-fashioned. Whatever. A whiskey-based drink, as is my custom, and the bartender just kept giving my drink to other people. I'm, like, watching him, and he walks past me, walks past me again with my drink, 'cause I saw him make it. It was a whiskey ginger. And then he just walks to one end of the bar, gives a person my drink. The first time it happened I was like, "Hm. Maybe--I don't know. Maybe they also ordered a whiskey ginger," but it happened, like, three times. Three. So I essentially was like, "All right, look. I will climb over this bar and fight you if necessary, but I'm gonna need my drink."Zach: Goodness.Ade: So I, like, start jumping up and waving at him, and he's like, "Oh, I didn't see you there." What? What?Zach: Come on. [laughs]Ade: What?Zach: No, no, no. But, like, real talk though. Like, size privilege is a thing, right? Like, there are certain privileges that come from being tall and from being thin. There's certain privileges, you know what I mean?Ade: You know there is. Absolutely.Zach: So that's real. Like, that's super real, and I can say that, like, this is an opportunity for me to practice empathy and not sympathy, 'cause I can't really relate to that.Ade: [laughs]Zach: Right? I can't, 'cause I'm always seen, you know what I mean? Like, you're not gonna not see me. Even if you try to--let's say, you know, you're trying to practice micro-aggressions and act like I'm not there. Like, you're not--like, you can't. You'll look silly. Like, I'ma get in your way. You're gonna have to acknowledge me. So that's real, but no, I was just curious. I mean, I would say that more than a few people have pulled me aside and been like, "Hey, your co-host is great." Like, [inaudible], so I didn't know what you meant about getting passed over.Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs] Yo, so this is what we're gonna do for season two. I'ma tell you what's coming up in season two, it's making me taking that "aye" as a sound bite and putting it on that soundboard, and we'll just play that.Ade: I am tired of [inaudible].Zach: It's ridiculous. Okay. So yeah, definitely listen. We're gonna talk a little bit about season two at the end and what's coming up just after this episode, 'cause we have some things happening after this season one wrap-up episode.Ade: Sure are.Zach: Yep, but what I--what I will say is, you know, please in season two expect--I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say a bit more personality 'cause I do feel as if we showed our personality a lot in season one, but, you know, it was our first season. Like, we're learning our platform. Ade and I did not know each other before we started Living Corporate, so we're certainly learning and growing as just friends in our relationship, so expect more of that, and also expect even more courageous and, like, really intentional content around underrepresented individuals and people groups in Corporate America. Like, I'll even give you an example.Ade: You are giving away the whole ending of the show.Zach: I know. Let me just--I'ma hold off on it, but we have some really great, like, topics that I'm really excited about because the point of this space is to have real talk in a corporate world, right? Like, corporate spaces. Even when you talk about inclusion and diversity, like, it's always masked with, like, other things, right? So, like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, diversity of--I'm like, "Can we be honest?" Like, "Can we just have an honest conversation about, like, intersectionality and how race and gender specifically play a role in shaping the entire planet," right? Like, can we just talk about it from a really honest and genuine perspective? Like, that's our goal. So just expect more of that in season two. When you can expect us back? You can expect us back--you can expect us back, man. We'll talk about that at the end of this episode, but you can expect us back. And maybe I'll drop a--maybe I'll drop a hint.Ade: Oh, we're doing hints now?Zach: I have a dream that you can expect us back soon.Ade: You can't be trusted with no secrets, man. Like, I just want you to know that right now.Zach: [laughs] Okay. All right, all right, all right. Let's see here now. We have one more question. Here we go. "How does one successfully transition out of the corporate world?" This is a good question, and I--you know, I'ma say this. I don't think it's fair for you and I to take this episode to try to walk through and, like, rehash some really great content that Matthew Manning of Gumbo Media and Nick Bailey of Black Texas Magazine have really done a great job at, like, expounding upon when it comes to starting a startup, transitioning from your full-time job and pursuing your dreams, like, wholeheartedly. And also Fenorris Pearson. Like, our first episode, right? He talked about transitioning out of the corporate world and getting into more non-profit work, right? So I think that there are some great episodes, and, like, this is not, like, an excuse, my back answer. Like, we definitely appreciate the question, but my biggest advice would be to go back and run those episodes back AND to look at the show notes because you have the contact information for those people, and I know who sent this question in, so I will actually circle back with them directly. And we'll make sure to--we'll put these questions and the answers, like, within the show notes within this episode, but there have been some really great episodes that we've had around that. What do you think about that question, Ade?Ade: I think, for one, we had so many amazing episodes that I connected to, that are literally just playing in the back of my head whenever I am in situations at work, that help essentially edify me, I think is the term that I'm trying to use. I'm not trying to go to church, but my top three though would have to be the mental health episode because, for all intents and purposes, I laughed my way through that episode and also connected really deeply with so many of the themes. Like, yes you want to hustle, yes you want to grind, but there's nothing to grind for if you lose your mental health in exchange for being in these spaces. And yes, these spaces often--these corporate spaces often do not have you in mind. They didn't have you in mind when they were formulating those spaces, and so now your existence in those spaces is very much revolutionary, and that said, you will often have to carry the burden of being the only, or even worse the only of onlys, in those corporate spaces, and so it 1. made me feel a lot less alone and 2. gave me a lot of very actionable advice, and so that was appreciated. Honorable mention goes to my conversation--it was a B-Side, not an episode, so I couldn't include it, but my conversation with Christa Clarke where we kind of built on that idea of what self-care looks like in corporate spaces. I think she's the first person that--maybe not the first person that I know, but the first person who was just so open about, "Yeah, I took a pay cut because it was what was best for me personally," and she's doing something that makes her happy. She has a creative space. She has everything essentially that you need to have a happy life without the stress, and so she's inspirational, and I'm still waiting to have cocktails with her. Last two. I think the Let Me In conversation with TJ, because--Zach: That was a good one, yeah.Ade: Yeah. You know, in real-time seeing someone who did precisely what I want to do with resources and having the conversations that I needed, and in a lot of ways he was inspirational because he decided he was gonna do this for the kids, you know? He was very much like, "I want to give back to my community, and this is the way that I've identified would benefit my community, but I'm not there yet," and so he took it upon himself to better himself because he knew--he (treated?) himself as a meaningful part of a whole, not necessarily making that career pivot just for himself, which was just a delight to hear. And I think the last one in my top three is Janet Pope. And again, we've had a lot of really amazing episodes, but these three spoke to me. Like, they met me where I was at sort of thing, and, you know, each and every single one of those conversations really came at a really pivotal time for me and a really important time because, for example, the conversation with TJ, it was at a time where I was particularly stressed and thinking, "You know what? Maybe tech isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. Maybe I'm just not good enough." I was really struggling at my former place of employment, and it didn't feel like I was doing any meaningful work, and it felt like I was around places that were just becoming toxic for me, and so it was just really, really good to get these reminders, like, "Hey, it's not in your head, but you can do something about it." Like, these systems exist outside of your control, but here's your locus of control. Here's your internal--you can do this work, and having people who have done the work, who are able to distill the vastness of their experiences into "This is what I did. You can do it too," was priceless for me.Zach: Those were really good choices.Ade: Thank you.Zach: So yeah, you can definitely count B-Sides. Like, B-Sides, they're episodes, so let's make sure we count those. So after I finish mine, if you have some extras that you want to throw in there, please feel free. So favorite episodes. So the first one that sticks out to me has to be Preston Mitchum's B-Side, right? Because it was so unapologetic. Preston Mitchum, he was talking about LGBTQ identity, he was talking about pro-blackness and, like, what that looks like practically in the workplace and as someone who's in a highly political area. He lives in D.C. He's a lawyer. He's an educator. He's an activist. So that one--that one was great.Ade: Yep. All facts, no cap.Zach: All facts, no cap. Listen--so side note, shout out to all these new slang words. I realize that I'm old now 'cause I--my generation as millennials, like older millennials, right? So I'm saying older millennials. I'm 29. We don't come up with all of the dances anymore, and we don't come up with all of the slang, so no cap--Ade: Can I just say something real quick?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: The first time I heard "no cap" I thought they were talking about Captain America, and I was mad confused because I genuinely just didn't get why they were bringing up Captain America in a conversation that had nothing to do with Captain America. I was just kind of like, "Uh..."Zach: "What is "no cap?"" Right? No, I was confused, so I was like, "What is "no cap?"" So "no cap." "Say less" is also hot in these streets, "say less," and then also I've heard of tick. Like, "You got tick." Like, "You got juice," or sauce or influence. You have tick. So that was a new--Ade: You have what?Zach: Tick. Tick. Chance the Rapper--Ade: Like the animals?Zach: Yeah. Like the bug, yeah. It's like the pest. Tick.Ade: Oh, no. I just--there's some things I just can't get with, and that's gonna have to be one of them.Zach: Tick is--yeah, tick is hot in these Chicago and Midwestern streets supposedly, so...Ade: Well, keep them Chicago and Midwest streets [inaudible] because...Zach: Is it not popping in the DMV?Ade: Not only is it cold, y'all not--what? Tick? Nah, that don't even make no sense. Like, what?Zach: [laughs] Goodness gracious. So yeah, so "no cap." [laughing] Going back to the podcast favs. So yes, Preston, and another one was Effective Allyship with Amy C. Waninger. That one was great.Ade: Aye.Zach: Around the same thoughts, because Amy being a white woman, and very white, right? And, like, we talked about that on the episode, 'cause the topic was effective allyship, and she talks about effective--like, she is a very white woman in a very white space, and just her just unapologetic tone around the reality of race and gender and intersectionality, really important. I would have to piggyback on one of your answers though. The Janet Pope episode was very good. I really, really enjoyed that one, and I was excited because I was not on the episode, and I was able just to listen and hear about y'all's journey, hear about just perspectives that I don't--I don't consider, and the fact that it was three black women talking too, which I was really excited and thankful for. Oh, okay, and then so a B-Side was--Latricia and I did an episode on Botham Jean, the man who was murdered by the police in his own home, and I liked that episode because it was not in any way, like, in alignment with our formula at all. Like, it was a--it was very much so, like, a--I don't want to say pop culture, but it was a current events-type episode, and that was probably, like, the maddest y'all will ever hear me on this podcast. Let me not say it. Well, hopefully it will be the maddest you ever hear me, but it was just very frank, and actually, people at my current place of employment heard the episode and reached out to me about it, like, in a very positive and encouraging way, and it helped me extend my network somehow, which was, like, an affirmation that, like, speaking truth to power is, to me, always the right thing to do. Like, you'll never go wrong in that. Like, how you speak truth to power and your method may adjust, but you doing it is not wrong. So that's three. I really enjoyed--I really enjoyed the episode with Deborah Owens about the self-advocacy, strategic networking and self-advocacy, when she was like, "You don't have a career."Ade: Oh, wow. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Zach: [laughing] "I don't want to do anything to mess up my career." "Sis, you don't have a career here." Boy. Goodness.Ade: Oof. A drag.Zach: No, it was--it was very funny, and then my fifth spot is kind of actually a tie between two. One is an episode where you kept on saying the person was tugging on your wig, which was the Professional Reinvention episode with my dad, Edward Nunn. That was pretty good. I liked that episode. It was tied with the B-Side for Professional Reinvention with Angela Shaw, and she's an HR business partner, public speaker, and she's the Austin Human Resource Management Association president, right? And so I really enjoyed--really enjoyed those episodes, but, you know--I don't even want to say honorable mention. I have a ton of others. The J Prince episode, even though it scared the mess out of me, was great. That was terrifying.Ade: [laughing] I remember you talking about that episode. You were freaking out.Zach: I was freaking out. And listen, let me tell you something, y'all. Y'all go back and run that episode back. That was the shortest episode in Living Corporate history. It was very short. I think it was, like, nine minutes. And then of course the DeRay Mckesson episode was phenomenal. I enjoyed that, even though the signal was bad. I appreciate the fact that he took the time to join, and he was really cool, so. You know what time it is? We didn't have it on our last episode, so now we're gonna get into Favorite Things. And this is the last Favorite Things for season one. So, you know, Ade, you typically have, like, seven favorite things. Feel free to drop as many more--Ade: Wow. You are so disrespectful. I just--I want you to know that it is on sight for you.Zach: [laughing] This is the thing. We've got to stop using--we've got to stop using phrases from the early 2000s and late '90s that don't mean what they mean anymore. "On sight" don't mean--Ade: That is what it means.Zach: "On sight," but you don't see anybody anymore, right? Technology is in the way. Now "on sight" don't mean that. "On sight" means that when I see you're green, when you're available on Facebook, it's a problem, you know what I mean? [laughing] Like, we don't see each other like that no more. It's just technology.Ade: [inaudible]. I just want you to know that the way my spirit is moving...Zach: You're moving--you're moving in early 2000s "on sight," that's what you're saying.Ade: The energy that I retain is of DMX fame, and I just want you to know that the minute you step off your plane...Zach: And come to D.C.? It's on sight?Ade: And land in...Zach: And put my two feet on the--Ade: You don't even gotta put both feet.Zach: I'll put one toe, one toe on D.C. ground.Ade: A toenail.Zach: A toenail. It's on sight.Ade: In any of the surrounding zip codes where I reside.Zach: Goodness. In the D, the M, or the V.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: Understood, I appreciate that.Ade: All right, [inaudible]?Zach: All right.Ade: So glad we understand each other.Zach: Great. [laughs]Ade: You're ridiculous. I can't stand you. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Oh, goodness gracious. So yes, please, Ade, commence with your cavalcade of Favorite Things.Ade: I--oh, my God. I can't keep saying that I want to fight you, but I do want to fight you. All right. Okay. So my Favorite Things--I actually don't want to go with books, and here's why I don't want to go with books. We have a list of books, and I would actually love to see if we could, like, get some listener feedback on their favorite books, but we said favorite THINGS, so I don't know. I feel like we should expand our repertoire a bit. So I have three, because I always have a lot. I'm very indecisive in that way. Top favorite thing is goat meat pepper soup.Zach: Oh, that sounds good.Ade: I am making some at the moment, and my house smells like peace, joy, and happiness, and so yeah. I'm partial, but goat meat pepper soup is the GOAT.Zach: Aye.Ade: You see what I did there? You see--you see what I did? You see?Zach: That was clever. Yeah, that was good. [laughs]Ade: And you should try goat meat pepper soup with some rice noodles. It's a delight. It's a delight. I just want to say that. Next favorite thing is Rent the Runway. Now, before I get any judgment from anybody, I just want to say I'm not gonna spend $8,000 on an Oscar de la Renta dress, but I do like Oscar de la Renta's dresses, so I'll spend $300 on renting one. Bloop. That's all I've got to say about that.Zach: Understood.Ade: Thank you for appreciating me, friend. And I think my final thing that I want to just shout out is contact lenses. Now, I just want to wax poetic for a second about contact lenses, 'cause I don't know if everybody knows, but my eyes are purely decorative. Without glasses or contacts, I can't see a thing. I literally see the world like those super out of light--out of focus lights that you see in the distance in Christmas. That's my life when I don't have any glasses or contacts on, and I just want to shout out to God for working way harder than Satan, because I can't tell you the number of bruises I've gotten just because, like, my eyes didn't see fit to notice that there was a corner there.Zach: [laughs] Man, that's real though.Ade: Or how many times I have just busted my whole behind because I didn't have contacts or glasses and missed, you know, the final three rows of stairs.Zach: Yo, that's the--that's the thing. When you miss, like, those steps, like, just one or two, you feel like--like, your life flashes before your eyes. Like, you feel you're about to die.Ade: Listen. Have you ever fallen up stairs?Zach: Trust--have I? Yes, most certainly.Ade: 1. I am disturbed to find that we are united in that experience...Zach: Most certainly.Ade: But also 2., and more importantly--oh, shoot. One second. Also, more importantly, how is it that we've managed to fall UP stairs? Like, I feel like we need to speak to somebody about this.Zach: I don't know. That's the thing though. It's us and, like, millions of other people. Like, plenty of people fall up the stairs. Like, honestly, the internet has brought of course a variety of great things, and one of the best things for me is that it really has helped me feel more comfortable in the fact that I'm a klutz. I'm really clumsy. That's why when I--that's why when I go out places, I don't even be moving around that much. I find, like, one little place to be and I kind of park there, because I know the minute that I move I'ma knock something over, I'ma bump into somebody, I'ma trip.Ade: You know what? That's a really good plan, because I certainly am gonna need something. Something, something. Maybe, like, you know, that bubble. Not, like, because I'm immuno-compromised but because, like, otherwise I'm gonna bump into everything and hurt myself. So yeah, things that you've learned about me today. I'm extremely clumsy.Zach: Most of my friends, close members in my family are very clumsy. Just clumsy. Just clumsy people, and I don't know what that's about. I've heard that there's some tie-in to people being clumsy and being intelligent though. Believe it or not I have, but, you know, that could just be junk science. You know, fake news. Who knows? Okay, so those are your Favorite Things. Hm. So my Favorite Things for the season, as our last entry into Favorite Things--I also will not do books. I too will do Things.Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. So my first Favorite Thing has to be the music that my brother-in-law Chris Price has dropped. He actually dropped an EP, and actually you should be hearing that in the background right now. It's just dope music, and I enjoy it because it's just jazz. Like, it's light jazz via piano, and what I like about it is--so beyond, like, the music itself, which I definitely listen to. It's good study music. It's good just kind of relax music. What I really like about it, the reason why it's a Favorite Thing--Ade: (Aye?) I've really got to stop saying that. It's driving me nuts now.Zach: See? Exactly, but it's cool. It's cool, 'cause I'ma run this back, I'ma cut out that little A, and I'm gonna make that--'cause we have a soundboard for season two. I'm gonna be like--it's gonna be "aye-aye-aye-aye." We're gonna just play it to death.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: That and the air horns. That's gonna be season two sound effects staples. Okay, so anyway, back to this. So what excites me and why it's a Favorite Thing is not just because it's good music, it's because any time I see someone, like, pursue their dream or pursue something and, like, really execute upon something that they have been thinking about or, like, a passion of theirs or something they find really interesting--that excites me, right? So that's why it's a Favorite Thing. So the music that you're hearing, we'll have the information in the show description so you can check it out yourself. Make sure you check it out on iTunes and everywhere that streams music. So that's one. The second thing that's my Favorite Thing has to be, and I'm just gonna come out and say it. I'm gonna come out and say it, man. Vaseline. So Vasel--Ade: What?Zach: Yeah, Vaseline. Like, Vaseline, especially in the melanated community, I think is greatly underused, right? So, you know, we don't talk about it enough, but I'ma talk about it - ashy. Ashiness, okay? So ashiness being the predominance of dry skin or a lack of moisture in your skin, and I think a lot of times--I think big lotion, the big lotion industry if I may, has deluded us into thinking that these very watery lotions are satisfactory for our skin, right? But you've got to realize, like, we don't live in a world that caters to blackness or brownness or anything like that. We live in a world where we are not the default. So that watery lotion, that hotel-level lotion, is not gonna cut it for us, and so I think that Vaseline, petroleum, Vaseline, is a great thing. It's a Favorite Thing of mine. Vaseline has never let me down. It is very cold in Dallas and in Houston--Ade: All of the shea butter in the world though.Zach: Shea butter also. So let me--let me actually amend that. Shea butter, cocoa butter, and Vaseline. And I guess--so under the umbrella of thicker moisture risers and moisture retainers, and it's really--Ade: I'm here to educate you. So shea butter and Vaseline and all of those things, they're not going to moisturize your skin. They're going to lock in moisture.Zach: That's what I said--but I said that--remember when I said [inaudible]--Ade: You said moisturizes first.Zach: Okay, fine, but then I said--Ade: I heard you though.Zach: Okay, cool, but then I said retain--Ade: Okay, but I heard you though.Zach: I said retain too though.Ade: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] They retain the moisture, right? So anyway, it's just important, man. I think, you know, a lot of y'all have--you know, a few folks have come in and emailed us about career advice and how do you do this and how do you do this. Let me tell you something. One thing you can do, anybody can do right now, is be less ashy. That is gonna help you in your career, no matter what you're trying to do.Ade: Um, sir? What?Zach: And so--[laughs] Like, no, really though. Really though, name one person that you've seen on television that's a person of color who's ashy? Malala is always--Malala? She's always moisturized. Michelle Obama? She looks moisturized to death. Her everything. There's not one dry bone on her body. Barack Obama? Same way. Idris Elba? Come on. Like, come on. Like, we know this. Oprah? Oprah never goes out ashy. We need to do--we need to do better so that Nivea--that's right, I'm coming at y'all, Nivea--all these other watery, water-based lotions, they're not for us, y'all. That's right, I'm talking to us right now. That's right. So that's--and look, that's just number two. I got one more. I got one more. Oh, Murray's Hair Grease also goes in that Favorite Things. I'm talking about thick pomades and lotions.Ade: Okay. You know what, sir? I'm gonna send you some shea butter because I can't listen to you crackle and pop over there anymore.Zach: [laughs] I don't crackle and--Ade: Don't claim you're not snapping.Zach: I don't crackle and pop. I don't crackle and pop because I use cocoa butter, shea butter, Murray's, and Vaseline.Ade: In that order?Zach: No, I just those thick--they're thick agents. That's what I use.Ade: I just...Zach: What if I start off by saying my Favorite Thing is thick agents? People will be like, "What are you talking about?"Ade: Okay, almost every time you've said "thick" so far you've said "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick," and sir, I'm very concerned about--about you.Zach: Thick agents. I didn't say--I didn't say "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick."Ade: No, no, no. You're right. You're totally correct. I understand and [inaudible].Zach: Thick agents. Cool. So that's two. Shout out to thick agents of moisture retention. That is my second Favorite Thing, then my third Favorite Thing--my third Favorite Thing is actually going to have to go a GroupMe called Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah, yeah.Ade: You keep that one in. Shout out to BIC.Zach: Shout out to BIC, which is thick with black consultants. How about that?Ade: [sighs]Zach: No?Ade: No.Zach: Okay. Well--JJ, keep it in. Keep it in. Don't take this out. [laughs] So no, really though, I love Blacks In Consulting GroupMe because it's--you know, the numbers, they wax and wane, but they are always well over 5 to 600 people, always, and it's all--it's what it is. It's black folks in consulting, and we share--we have venting sessions, we share knowledge, we share resources. It's a place of affirmation and familiarity, and so it's great. It's really exciting just to be in that space, and it was through Blacks In Consulting that I met the Living Corporate--the people that would eventually comprise the Living Corporate team, and so just shout out to them and shout out to my favorite--that's one of my Favorite Things. My Favorite Thing--so it is the GroupMe, but I guess from a conceptual level it's more about the idea of like-minded people grouping together, not to exclude others, not to rise up against other people or anything like that, but in the name of just being collaborative and practicing a certain level of community along very genuine lines, and I think, you know, it's--you know what I mean? Like, to me that's a beautiful thing. And yeah, we're in there. We'll joke and we'll have fun and stuff like that, but, like, there are genuine moments of collaboration and just affirmation. So those are my Favorite Things. Those are my Favorite Things. Okay, so--Ade: And just to add to loving on BIC real quick, it's been a space where I got career advice, I got--I mean, I got to meet you, Zach, but I also got to meet some really amazing people. I got interview advice, and I found some [inaudible] partners. Not only is it a well-rounded group, but it's super effective, and it's a really great way or it has been a really great way to meet young professionals like myself, and I'm very, very grateful for that space, and you guys should definitely look for Blacks In Consulting and other projects that's coming out of that group.Zach: Ooh, yeah. That's a good point too, yeah. We don't want to give away the sauce, but definitely. In 2019, keep your eyes peeled for Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye. Okay, I need--I need a new catchphrase. Dear God, I'm so tired of "aye."Zach: Well, the first step is awareness, right? So we can--we can workshop some new phrases in 2019. Like, we have plenty of time, and--Ade: No, no, no. Today. We're working new phrases today because every time I hear it come out of my mouth I'm just kind of like, "A what? B? Can you go with another letter? I don't know, Sis. Something." I'm dragging my own self over, like, verbal cues.Zach: [laughs] You've said it like 20 or 30 times this episode. It's okay.Ade: 20 or 30? Oh, my God.Zach: [laughs] Slight exaggeration there. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. So now we're gonna get into Thank Yous, thank yous. What thank yous do you have?Ade: Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind. Okay, tell me you know where that came from.Zach: You said, "Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind."Ade: Yes.Zach: Man, I'm drawing a blank. [inaudible].Ade: [gasps]Zach: You're gonna say it and I'm gonna be like, "Duh." Who? Not Jay-Z. Who?Ade: Yes, Jay-Z. Numb/Encore with Linkin Park.Zach: Okay, cool. My word. Yo. Man, first of all...Ade: [sighs] You disappoint me.Zach: No, no, no. It's crazy that you bring that up because I was just thinking about the Black Album yesterday. I was listening to an episode of The Evening Jones with Bomani Jones, and he was talking--somebody asked, like, "Is the Black Album a classic?" And I was like, "Yes."Ade: Uh, duh.Zach: Like, the Black Album dropped when I was 14. Man, let me tell you, [inaudible]--Ade: When you were how old?Zach: I was 14. I was in eighth grade, yeah.Ade: Oh, boy.Zach: And it's funny, right? Age is--age is not relative in that, like--I mean, come on. Like, they're distinct numbers, but what you think is old and young is relative to the person, right? So on The Right Time, most of the people there were, like, in their--they were older. They're, like, in their thirties and their, you know, maybe early forties, and they're talking about, "Yeah, I remember when I was in high school listening to the Black Album." "I remember when I was just graduating high school and getting into college listening to the Black Album," and [inaudible] I know I shared. I was like, "Man, I was, like, 13, 14 when the Black Album dropped." I think I was 13 actually. And everybody was like, "Dang, you were young," and then you're like, "Nah, I'm old." Like, 'cause how old were you? You were like, what, 9? 10?Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: Yeah, you were mad young, right? So anyway--Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, we're getting to our Thank Yous. Ade, would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?Ade: You go first.Zach: Okay. So first off, a major thank you goes to my wife Candice, who was more than encouraging for me just to get all of this stuff going and getting it kicked off. Like, this was a big deal in just our home because this takes time and energy away from other things, and money of course, right? Just to kind of get things going and getting started. So definitely thank yous to her and just my family, just all the support. My mom, my parents of course, and then my mother and father-in-law for sure. Very encouraging, very supportive in everything that I do, and they're just--they're just great. Like, they're great. So that's just starting with just family and just close--and I'll throw close friends in there too. And then thank yous also go to all of the guests for season one. Like, people responded to us with such excitement to be on the show. Like, we did not have to really beg a lot of people. That was crazy to me. So thank yous to everybody that was a guest. Special shout outs to George Okpamen, who has been super supportive and just over the top--Ade: Sure has.Zach: Right? Very supportive. Amy C. Waninger, who always retweets things. Kyle Mosely. Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. That was actually another favorite episode too, Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. Super cool. Very White Guy. I mean, the list goes on and on, literally every single guest. J Prince too. Just people who are willing just to be on our platform and just be a part. Like, it's amazing. Other thank yous go of course to Sound Man, AKA JJ. JJ, man, please give yourself a round of applause real quick-like please.Ade: Seriously?Zach: 'Cause man, you've been just super instrumental in getting all of these things together. I mean, between the full episodes and the B-Sides and the--I mean, it's crazy. And another thank you goes to actually someone who's very behind the scenes but is super instrumental to everything we do is Aaron. So Aaron is our admin, and so, you know, someone--so someone pulled me aside one time and they were like, you know, "So where are the white guys? Where are the white guys?" Like, "Why are you excluding the white people?" So first of all, we do not exclude white people. We've had white people on Living Corporate, okay, as guests, and Aaron, who's on the team, is white. So there, okay?Ade: You just totally pulled the "we have a white friend" card, and I want you to know that I'm about 30 seconds away from laughing [inaudible].Zach: [laughing] But we don't just have a white friend. We have white friendS, right? We've got Drew.Ade: Plural.Zach: Plural. We have Drew. We have Amy. We have Aaron. Okay?Ade: Okay, I'm gonna need you to not list all of the white people who like us. Thank you.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm not doing this with you, sir. [laughs]Zach: Here's the thing. See, look. It's so funny, right? 'Cause I was about to get defensive and name, like, two more white people, but then it's--like, that's kind of proving your point. But no, in all seriousness, right, like, I just want to thank Aaron. He certainly is our forced diversity hire. The government, the radical left, came and made us hire somebody white, and so that's where we are. [laughs]Ade: [sighs] All right. When we get kicked off of Apple Podcasts, I will just point to this moment.Zach: You know that's what people think though. They think, like--they think, like, the government goes into companies like, "You have to hire--"Ade: Certainly.Zach: You know? It's just ridiculous. So of course we [inaudible]--Ade: But also just point to this second in time. Like, I'm not mad at it. You are spitting facts, however...Zach: The loony left! Nah, but in all seriousness, Aaron is great, and he's been doing wonderful work. And then last but not least, I want to thank the people who are still kind of, like, on the periph--who started off, like, really closely in Living Corporate but now they're kind of more so on the periphery or doing other things, and that's Latricia, Ade--I'm about to say Ade. Latricia, Ola, and Parin, and Hannah. So all of them have had, like, very critical and instrumental parts of Living Corporate and just getting started and us kind of, like, getting some frameworks recognized and developed, and we've been able to continue to move forward, so I want to thank them. And then lastly--I know I said lastly before, but lastly I want to thank Sheneisha White, and she's actually our researcher, and so you'll hear more about her in season two, but yeah. And I'm sure I've missed somebody, but I don't think so. So yeah, those are my Thank Yous.Ade: Those were great, and exhaustive, so I don't have too much more--Zach: Oh, okay. [laughs]Ade: Look. Listen, you did it. I appreciate you taking point on that because I know I would've forgotten somebody that was super integral, and then I'd feel bad for the rest of all my days, so thank you for sparing me the guilt. Personally, I would like to thank my partner, my friends, my family. I feel like I'm at an award show and I should've prepped a speech, but in lieu of that I do want to say my deep, heartfelt thanks to, you know, everybody who has supported this endeavor, everybody who has given us feedback, who has--I'm gonna shout out my friends [inaudible] and [inaudible] just championing and really supporting in ways that I didn't even expect. I didn't expect my friends--in a lot of ways, they were the very first to recognize, "Hey, this is a really dope thing, and you guys should keep doing it." Not only was that useful for us and helpful for us, but it was just empowering in ways that I don't think they know, and I hope that I'm only a quarter as good of a friend as you guys have been to me. Shout out to [inaudible] as well. Shout out to [inaudible] as well, but I really appreciate all of you, and I've gotten more than one comment about how beautiful my voice is, and I have never been so self-conscious about it before, but I really appreciate that people appreciate my voice, so there's that. Yeah. In all, I'm really grateful that the most expensive thing that you can be given is someone's time and that you guys have come back time and time again to spend your time with us and listen to what we have to say and the content that we are producing is just--it's a humbling thing, and I really appreciate all of you. And finally, I really want to thank you, Zach, because you've poured your heart and soul into this project, into this platform, and I think everyone who knows you knows the amount of time and effort that you put into this project. Up to 3:00 a.m. mornings when we're both up and we're like, "Why are you up?" "Living Corporate. Why are you up?" "Insomnia." So... [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Ade: Yeah. I just really want you to know that I've never met anybody with your work ethic, with your passion, with your drive, and your humility. All of those things are important because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to like you very much because I'd be like, "Who's this guy outperforming me? How dare you?" You've really defined leadership for me in a lot of ways, and I appreciate you.Zach: Man, first of all, thank you, Ade. Like, none of this was scripted at all so I wasn't expecting that, but I definitely appreciate it, and I appreciate you. One of these seasons we're gonna have to talk about, like, your journey, right? Like, this--like, over the past, you know, seven, eight months, and the growth that you've shown--Ade: I don't know if I can put that on a public platform. [laughs] Wait.Zach: [laughs] But no, just the growth that you've shown and the obstacles that you've overcome and the resilience that you've demonstrated, and just all of the--just the development. I mean, there's just so much there, so I'm inspired by you, and I'm excited to be here with you and to continue forward with you on and through Living Corporate. So cool, enough of that 'cause I'm not gonna cry. Let's talk about some house-cleaning and just kind of, like, what's next for Living Corporate, right? So you guys--I'm sorry, I don't want to be so hetero-normative in my language. You all should know or should be hearing this around Thanksgiving, right? So we're recording this in mid-November. You all should be hearing this on the 23rd or the weekend of the 23rd around Thanksgiving. The regularly scheduled programming of Friday Living Corporate episodes, either full episodes or B-Sides, will be on pause until early 2019, which will be sometime in mid-January or so, okay? So that's when we're gonna be coming back. We will be back in mid-January, and that's gonna be, like, our formal, full episodes. Like, that's when those will come back, but in the meantime we actually have a really exciting partnership that we want to announce for you guys, for you all.Ade: Sure do.Zach: And that's what with the Coalition of Black Excellence. So the Coalition of Black Excellence is a non-profit genuinely focused on the uplifting and professional development through networking, through education, of black professionals. They're based in California, and they have a really big, major event called CBE Week that's gonna be happening in early 2019, and so we actually have a partnership with them to really feature a lot of the speakers for that event as special co-branded, co-facilitated learning series that we will be airing through this platform, through the Living Corporate podcast, up and leading to--up and leading to CBE Week, okay? So you'll be hearing those on Mondays, okay? Those will be starting up soon. So if you heard this on a Friday, really you'll likely hear that content--the first episode for that particular learning series will be dropping that following Monday, okay? So make sure you stay tuned for that. We're really excited about that, really thankful for the opportunity to work with the Coalition of Black Excellence in this regard, and we actually have even more content that we're gonna share with you around the CBE Week as it gets closer, but we're gonna hold some of those jewels back for ourselves. So we're excited about that for sure.Ade: Definitely.Zach: What else, Ade, housekeeping-wise? What else do we need to talk about?Ade: While we're gone, please keep sending us your letters if you want to vent, if you want to write, if you want to ask questions. We're on hiatus, but we can certainly--maybe get on Live and answer a couple questions.Zach: Ooh, that's a--what a good idea, yeah. I agree with that. No, we should definitely do that. That's a great idea.Ade: Thanks.Zach: Yeah, and then also--listen. Now, look, I'm not gonna share all of the--all of our download data 'cause I don't--you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to give away the sauce, but look, we have thousands--we have thousands upon thousands of downloads every month, right? And I share this to say I need y'all to give us five stars on iTunes, okay? Please. That would be a great holiday gift for us. Give us five stars. Like, right now I think we're around, like, 115 or so. I need to check again. I know that, like, they come in kind of in delays, but let's see if we can get to 200 before January. Can we do that? Can y'all get on and just give us five stars real fast? It don't take too much time, and I know y'all not some haters 'cause y'all listen to the show. Like, there's plenty of people--thousands of people listen to the show every month, so just go ahead and do that for us. The last thing is to make sure that you run back some episodes. I know that we publish on a weekly clip, and some people have commented like, "Man, y'all are really putting out a lot of content. It's hard for me to keep up." Like, thankfully it's a podcast, so you don't have to even quote-unquote keep up. Now you can just go back and listen to 'em. You have a little bit of a break. So make sure you check out some episodes if you missed anything. We have some really great content, really proud of it, and yeah. Okay. Well, if that's it--Ade, is there anything else you're thinking about?Ade: As y'all go into the holidays, I hope that you have a peaceful, blessed time. If you get to spend your time with your loved ones, I hope that you hold them close, you hold them tight, you have wonderful, wonderful memories--you make wonderful, wonderful memories, and if you are not around your loved ones or your chosen family, if you have to spend time in uncomfortable spaces in this holiday period, I pray for peace for you as well. I pray for ease for you as well, and, you know, make sure that you prioritize your mental health. The downside to a lot of the holidays is that you're sometimes surrounded by people who trigger you, people who put you in unhealthy situations, and I want you all to choose yourselves first. Take time off work because those people will replace you in a heartbeat if necessary. So as important as it is to build your brand, build yourself, like we were saying earlier, make sure you make time, you make space for healthy habits. I think that's all I have to say. Oh, see y'all next year. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, yeah, so we definitely will. And, man, echoing everything you just said, Ade. That's dope. That's super agreed. Hit us with the wisdom. I'm over here trying to rush out the door. Yeah. So you will hear other Living Corporate content, but as far as the Living Corporate regular season goes, you will hear us as a duo next year. So with that being said, you've been listening to Living Corporate. My name is Zach.Ade: I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Zach: [scat singing]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with Mentor + Mentees Founder, public speaker, entrepreneur, community leader, social influencer and Living Corporate ambassador Tim Salau again to talk about his journey in landing amazing jobs and his perspective on the gig economy.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a B-Side. We've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but everyone's episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are less structured and somehow even more lit--that's right, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. You don't believe me? Sound Man, I want you to go ahead and drop the air horns right HERE.[Sound Man complies]Zach: Okay, now listen. These B-Sides, we switch 'em up, y'all. Right? Sometimes we have a host conversation between myself and Latricia or Ade and Ola or Ola and Latricia. You get the point. Sometimes they're monologues just with your boy or with Latricia or one of the hosts, and then sometimes they're one-on-one interviews. And you can probably hear our guest laughing in the background, because we have such a guest and such an interview today. In fact, the only person to make two appearances in the same season, Tim Salau. [Sound Man throws in the cheers]Tim: I'm here. I'm here, man.Zach: Tim, what's going on, man? How you doin'?Tim: I'm doing well, man. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me again.Zach: No, no, no. Thank you for being here again. Now, look. For those who don't know you or didn't meet you the first time, I'm gonna ask you a few rapid-fire questions for the audience so they can kind of get to know you or get to re-know you. Are you ready?Tim: I'm ready.Zach: Okay. Where are you from and what degree did you graduate with, undergrad and grad school?Tim: I am from Houston, Texas. I graduated with a psychology degree from Texas Tech University and a Master's in Information Studies at the University of Texas in Austin.Zach: How many LinkedIn certifications do you have?Tim: I have over 200+ probably. [laughs]Zach: And what is your tech area of expertise?Tim: And my tech area of expertise is in artificial intelligence and user experience design.Zach: What are your primary initiatives these days?Tim: Primary initiatives is growing the Mentors and Mentees community and creating content that can help people in their career paths.Zach: What companies have you worked for in the past five years?Tim: I've worked for Facebook, Google, will be working for Microsoft. I've worked for the University of Texas in Austin, and I've worked for Living Corporate as a brand ambassador too. So I've worked for a lot of different companies. Oh, and Waze Carpool. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. Now, folks, y'all heard those companies that he name-dropped, right? Tim, how did you land those gigs?Tim: Honestly the hustle, really putting myself in the right position and being proactive in who I reached out to and sharing my value as much as possible, even when people ain't looking.Zach: So today we're talking about landing the job of your dreams. Now, Tim, what are some myths around getting a job that young people and definitely minorities need to understand?Tim: #1 myth I think I often see and see people follow is "I've just got to apply and I've got to chill." Not at all. You can--like, putting your application through an application tracking system and just expecting something to happen for you [isn't how?] you go about it now. Now you have to have a presence. You actually have to have a marketing strategy, some sort of approach in how you get your next job, which requires you to have an online profile, whether it be on LinkedIn or whatever profile, whatever online channel that aligns the next position you want to get, and then also offline networking, right? So really that myth that you just apply and you wait, and you apply to multiple companies and wait, are kind of like just shoot and pray. That's a myth. That's the #1 myth I've seen.Zach: So you've had multiple amazing jobs. [laughs] My question here is why did you leave any of them? Like, what was the--what was the reason for transitioning from one to the other and, you know, what is your long-term goal?Tim: So I'm a gig worker, and I'm glad you asked that because I think there needs to be more visibility on what gig work looks like. A lot of the work I've done in the past has been either from a partnership standpoint, and really the reason I've left is that, you know, whether it be the internships I've had or, you know, kind of like looking for a new opportunity to grow my skills and my perspective, but just kind of in search of understanding how I can go grow my skills to be the best community builder I can be. So I usually tell people I'm a full-time community builder, but, you know, I have skills and expertise in a lot of other different verticals, but my long-term mission is to be in a position to build communities. And, you know, that doesn't really--you know, I already have the title that I want. It's not to be a CEO or something like that. I'm, you know, kind of executing on what I want to practice every single day, but in order to do that I have to have a collective, you know, breadth of experiences that allow me to build a skill set, and being in front of the right people that will kind of, like, fire my vision, right? So, I mean, I've had a lot of great experiences, a lot of great jobs, but it's been a matter of, like, growth. Finding opportunities to grow in a new area and kind of, like, start puzzle pieces together on where I want my future to be like. Zach: See, what's interesting about this and what energizes me about your career story is it's like you have this ultimate mission that you're driving towards, and the brands and things that are associated with you driving towards your mission are just that, they're associations tied to this mission that you have. So talk to us a little bit more about being a gig worker and really how you see that playing a part in the future of how we all do work, right? Because I do believe, right, that the era of me saying, "Well, I work at Insert Company Here, and that's what I do. I do X," and you do that for 10, 20 years, whatever, that those days are coming to a close, right? I think that your approach on how you're one structuring your career and how you're navigating these spaces is really gonna be a larger framework for how millennials and Gen Y, how we work. So can you talk to us a little bit more about what you mean by being a gig worker, what you mean by, you know, being a community builder, and how that mentally helps you navigate these spaces?Tim: I love what you mentioned. So being a gig worker, I think there's a huge misconception around what a gig worker is. A lot of people think it has to do with freelance work or freelancers, but really it's a matter of--honestly, man, the way I put it is, like, you a hustler, right? I grew up in an environment where, you know, my dad was working multiple jobs. My mom was working multiple jobs. The people that we--the neighborhoods that we lived in, there--you know, there were families there, and the dad and the mom were working multiple jobs. So it's like this really had me--but understanding that, you know, you're working to survive, but at the same time being a gig worker is a matter of, like, choosing what your career path looks like but aligning it to the purpose, in terms of, like, the purpose of why you exist, of why you want to work for a living, and I think for me it's really a matter of having people understand that gig work isn't just a manner of contractual work, but it's understanding what are the opportunities I can pick up, paid or unpaid, that will strengthen my career, right? That will allow me to build skills in verticals, whether it be to become more technical or to build my social aptitude or my emotional intelligence, and see how that aligns to what your end goal is. So for me I actually don't have an end goal, and that usually surprises people because I tell people I have a purpose. So my purpose is the fact that I want to strengthen the bonds that people share with compassion and empathic action. In terms of the position I claim and I usually want people to kind of see me as is that I'm a community builder. So I put myself in positions to strengthen bonds, right? Whether it be hosting an event, me organizing a function, me creating a community or me educating someone. I do that actively. Now, I'm not necessarily always thinking about ways to get paid doing this. I'm thinking about ways to put myself in the position to follow my purpose. So when it comes to goals and long-term achievements, that might change, right? I can't say I'm gonna do this by 2025. The world is gonna be really, really different by 2025, right? Like, a lot of things are gonna change. So I can't necessarily say this is gonna be my exact goal. I think a lot of people do that, but for me it's easier to kind of follow my purpose, being a gig worker, and seeing how I can pick the opportunities, the jobs, the roles that allow me to kind of further my purpose. So where I see the modern workforce going is that a lot of people are gonna start doing more purposeful work, and it's due to the fact that it's so accessible now to start your business, to start your own initiative, to partner up, right? To really use the technical tools at your disposal, to really say, "Okay, I want to do this. How do I do this," right? "And how do I find the people that will help me do this?" But better yet, how do I build the skills, right? If education is more accessible, you know, the ability for Gen Z millennials or people who are currently in the workforce right now to say, "I want to learn this so I can create this," whether it be for the people that I want to serve, will only continue to get easier. So I expect that, you know, this is gonna be a cultural pattern, and we're already seeing it, right? You have young influencers who haven't even, you know, reached the workforce yet who are creating presence, right? They have their own brand. They're working with large brands such as Louis Vuitton, Microsoft, who are doing all these great things, and their entire business is on social media. They don't even have a--they've never seen a corporate office in their life. They're selling e-courses. They're using their presence to commoditize, you know, who they are and whatever their purpose is in, you know, the community that they serve. So this trend is--I mean, it's all part of this whole notion of the digital transformation that we've seen happening in every sector, and especially from a consumer end as well.Zach: So it's so funny, right, because--the reason I'm at a pause is because, you know, the topic of this show that we're doing a B-Side on was around landing the job of your dreams, right? But the conversation we're having right now, I think having the premise of landing a job of your dreams--you know, if you try to find the job of your dreams, dreams and goals change all the time, but your purpose doesn't necessarily--doesn't change. Isn't as fluid, right? Your purpose is something that is fairly solid because your purpose is who you are, right? So it doesn't mean that--again, that doesn't mean that your purpose won't shift. It might change, but the degree by which your purpose changes and the degree by which your dream job changes are completely different.Tim: Absolutely, and I think it's a matter of creating the job of your dreams.Zach: Hm. You know what? I think that's gonna be the title of this B-Side, Creating the Job of Your Dreams. I like that. [laughs]Tim: [laughs] Creating the job of your dreams. Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, straight up. This is good. Okay, look. Tim, this has been a great conversation, man. Before we get out of here, any shout outs you have? Any parting words?Tim: I want to shout out to the Mentors and Mentees community. Shout out Living Corporate. You all are doing great things, man. The resources y'all are providing for people who are coming into Corporate America, who have been in Corporate America or who are trying to exit Corporate America is magnificent. Keep doing what y'all are doing.Zach: Man, I appreciate that. Now, look, that does it for us, folks. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with Tim Salau. Peace.Tim: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with career coach and resume writer Tristan Layfield to discuss what goes into landing the job of your dreams and how to achieve that goal.Find out more about Tristan here: https://layfieldresume.com/about/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach.Ade: And you're listening to Living Corporate. So Zach...Zach: What's up?Ade: So we have another B-Side, but this is the last full episode before our Wrap Up episode this month. Zach: Sheesh, already?Ade: Yeah, man. It's been such a wild ride. Can you believe it's only been seven months since we got started? In that very, very short time, we've had some dope conversations, some amazing guests, and more than a few funny moments.Zach: [laughing] For sure, but you know what? We'll talk all about that in our Season Wrap Up episode in a couple weeks.Ade: We sure are.Zach: That's right, but today, we're gonna talk about landing the job of your dreams.Ade: The job of your dreams? That reminds me of that lottery that got over a billion dollars.Zach: A billion dollars. Oh, yeah. What would you do if you had all that money?Ade: Who are you kidding? I wouldn't do just one thing. I would open a restaurant, travel the world, open free clinics and schools all around the world. Pretty much whatever my heart could possibly desire. I think that's the definition of a dream job, something that you would do if money wasn't a concern. What's your dream job?Zach: So I have to start with my passion, right? So my passion is people and creating platforms that amplify the voices and experiences of underrepresented people, so a lot of really what Living Corporate is doing. So my dream job would have to heavily involve Living Corporate for sure.Ade: Ayyyy. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone like a career coach, but not just any career coach. Maybe a public speaker, someone with professional resume writing experience, an educator. Someone who's been featured in a variety of publications. Let's throw maybe black enterprise in there, and maybe he focuses his work on underrepresented people, especially millennials worldwide but also around his hometown of Detroit, Michigan.Zach: Hm. Oh, wait. You mean like our guest Tristan Layfield?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Look--Sound Man, look. We are so many episodes in. Go ahead and give me those air horns right HERE.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Yeah, shout out to J.J.Zach: [laughing] Shout out to J.J., hey, A.K.A. Sound Man. We'll talk about that more too. [laughing] Anyway, so next what we're gonna do is get into our interview with our guest, Tristan Layfield. Hope you all enjoy. And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Tristan Layfield on the show. Tristan, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Tristan: Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. It's a little rainy here today, but I'm feeling good.Zach: Hey, man, I hear you. For those of us who don't know you though, tell us a little bit about yourself.Tristan: Yeah. So like you said, my name is Tristan Layfield. I'm based in the Metro Detroit area, and I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development with my clients by combining their personal branding with their career field through strategic coaching, the development of resumes, cover letters and LinkedIn profiles that really help my clients stand out. Zach: So today we're talking about landing the job of your dreams. That kind of assumes though that you know what your dreams are. What advice do you have for professionals who really don't know what they want, and how do they find that out?Tristan: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think this is a problem that plagues a lot of us. And first, I think it's having an understanding of what you really want to do, and when I say that, I don't mean the thing that everyone has been telling you that you should do since you were young but the thing that you actually like, right? So I've noticed in talking with a lot of my clients and a lot of people I work with that we've been forced to pick what we wanted to do or wanted to be since we were young, and then most of us go to college where we're forced to pick a major well before we even know what we're interested in. So then we graduate with everybody else's dreams on us instead of focusing on our own. I always suggest the way to get out of that is to sort of start by doing what I call an interest alignment activity. So essentially, you make four different lists, and the first one is you list things that are high-skill for you and high-interest, meaning those are skills that you're good at and skills that you like to do. The second list is high-skill and low-interest. So those are skills that you're good at, but you really just don't like to do. And these are the things that cause burnout, right? And then the third list is low-skill, low-interest. These are the things you want to work on or develop. You're very interested in doing those things. And then the last one is low-skill and low-interest, and these are red flag areas. These are things that you don't enjoy and you're not good at, right? So once you make those lists, from there you're able to utilize those skills in that first and third section to build what your ideal job description would be, and you're also able to identify jobs that are heavy in the things that you listed in the second and fourth sections because you'll be able to better identify those roles that aren't a good fit for you because they are, you know, those skills that you're not interested in or those skills that you just really aren't good at and have no interest in overall. So, you know, doing that type of exercise gives you a baseline upon which you're able to assess all of the jobs you're looking at to understand that the position may be a fit for you and your expertise. So that's one of the things that I suggest to really try to narrow down the jobs that you're looking at, is to have something to compare it to, and that's how I sort of get to it with my clients.Zach: So does a--let me ask you this. Does a dream job mean a permanent job? Are dreams allowed to change?Tristan: [laughing] Yeah, that's a great question. So dream jobs can mean a permanent job for some people, but more often than not that's not always the case, because typically, as we grow and change as people, what we want, or our dream or our vision of things, typically changes over time. So to simply answer your question, "Are dreams allowed to change," yes, dreams are allowed to change, and I actually recently was working with a client who grew up knowing that she wanted to be a lawyer. And she went to law school, and she had been practicing law for over 20 years, but recently realized that she wanted to make a pivot into the non-profit sector as she had been working--doing a little bit of that work. So she found out that she loved it, and she came to me to figure out how to pivot her career, right? This woman's been in her career for well over 20 years, and now her dream has changed, and I see that very often, and I see that as a common thing, simply because, like I said earlier, we typically leave college or leave school with other people's dreams on us. Typically that's what we're trying to fulfill. We're not trying to fulfill our own dreams, right? So yeah, I definitely think they're allowed to change. Does it mean a permanent job? It can, and sometimes it runs its course. It was fun. You got the skills you needed, and now you need to move on.Zach: So, you know, I talk to people, especially, like, millennial professionals, and there's kind of, like, this divide, right? So there's a large contingency of us who will say, "Look, man. You've got to figure out where you just need to figure out where you stay and you can get locked in so you can get promoted, you can grow, you can climb the ladder," so and so forth. There's another group of people--and I probably fall more in this camp--of, like, "Look, man. You've got to kind of keep it moving," right? Like, "You need to figure out," you know, every three, four, every really 18, 24 months, you need to really be doing a hard assessment of, like, where you're at and if you need to make some transitions, either internally or externally or whatever the case may be. Where would you draw the line in-between looking for a genuine change and just being fickle or indecisive?Tristan: You know, I think it really depends on you as a person. Like you just said, there's sort of two different camps of people, the people who want to get into a company and want to be loyal to that company and move up through that company, and then there's the people who, unfortunately like many of us millennials, we sort of came out--we came out of school in a recession period, right? There weren't a lot of jobs, this that and the other, so we really had a foot--we were a foot behind everyone when it came to jobs or pay or whatever the case may be, and that has required us to sort of go on what I call a get rich quick scheme, you know? We're trying to catch up with everybody, and sometimes that requires us to move every two years to get that 10% raise in pay or whatever the case may be. So I think it is--it really depends on the person, but for me, where I think--excuse me, where I draw the line between genuine change and just being fickle and indecisive is when you're switching jobs or industries very frequently, like every one to two years, without actually sitting down and conducting a thorough analysis of why you're doing it, right? Most people who are looking for genuine change take the time to think through where they want to go and what they want to do or why this situation is not working for them, and they also provide enough time for them to get into the new area and learn and apply those things that they learn to practice. And that takes time, and sometimes that period can be difficult simply because you're learning and adjusting, and that is where people who are fickle or indecisive tend to jump ship, right? Change isn't easy, and those who are genuinely seeking it tend to understand that this is a process, and those who aren't genuinely seeking it or just being fickle and indecisive are just moving because of one little thing, you know, rubbed them the wrong way. Most of the time.Zach: Okay. So let me ask you this. I'm thinking through this as you're giving me this answer. If you had to give millennials and just working professionals of color advice when it comes to career navigation and finding what's going on for you--what would you say are some of the main challenges that you see with people that look like us when it comes to career navigation and finding that sweet spot for us?Tristan: Ooh, that is a loaded question. Right? [laughs] Well, first, I think--I think we all need to sit down and assess what we're really interested in and what we want to do. We have to make peace with the fact that what we had majored in in college may not be what we actually end up doing in life, and that is okay, and you have to realize that the majority of people are in that place. And then once you get into a place where you do like it, you need to understand sort of what the--what the pathway forward is inside of that company or inside of this industry, right? What are the next steps? How do you get there? What skills do you currently have, and what skills are you missing? And you identify those through a skills gap analysis, and sometimes you can identify, "Okay, this company is gonna allow me to get this skill set, but they don't have anything that's gonna allow me to get this other skill set to get to that ultimate position that I want to be in." So sometimes that means, you know, switching jobs, switching companies, switching industries to get that other skill set, and I think we have to be open about that and open and honest with ourselves that, you know, it's gonna be a process. It takes time. It takes dedication and, you know, no one really becomes successful without actually sitting down and putting in the work to figure out where they want to go, and often times what I find is we try to do all of that alone, and unfortunately that's not always everyone's zone of genius. So reach out and get help, whether that be me, like, a career coach and resume writer, or whether that be a friend that you see in the field doing the work, you know, talking to them, or whether that be getting informational interviews. You really have to be your biggest advocate in your own career search, and I think that's one of the biggest things I think people struggle with, is being their own advocate, and it's typically because they haven't done the work to figure out what they're actually interested in and how to actually attain it.Zach: That's a great last point too around being your own advocate. We just recently had Deborah Owens, who is the CEO of Corporate Alley Cat, and we had a whole episode around self-advocacy and strategic networking, and that was a main point too. So that was more from the context of navigating internally for the sake of your career, but your point also resonates because regardless if you're looking--irrespective of if you're looking for a change internally or you're looking for a change externally, you have to be your biggest advocate. Like, no one's gonna care more about you than you.Tristan: You have to be your own biggest advocate. No one knows your experience better than you, no one knows where your expertise lies better than you, and no one knows what you are able to actually go in and do and learn and put on the table, and so sometimes you just really need to show people that, and you really need to exemplify that, and the only way you're gonna do it is if you advocate for yourself.Zach: Absolutely. Well, look, this has been great, Tristan. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about you and your company? Tristan: Yeah, this has been amazing, and I appreciate it. People can check us out at my website, which is www.layfieldresume.com, and for those of you guys who don't know how to spell it, it's L-A-Y-F as in Frank-I-E-L-D-R-E-S-U-M-E dot com, or you can follow me on Instagram @LayfieldResume or connect with me on LinkedIn at TristanLayfield. Zach: Awesome, man. You know we'll make sure to have all of that information in our show notes so they can--our audience can check it out. Any parting words or shout outs before we let you go?Tristan: Yeah. You know, I just want to shout out my tribe. I always like to shout them out. My friends, my best friend, you know, my grandma. Everybody who's been supporting me along this journey, I just really appreciate them. I just want to thank you so much, Zach, for having me on the show. The conversations you're having are just so important for us to be discussing, and I'm just glad to be a part of it.Zach: Man, I'm honored by that. And you know what? Shout out to the word tribe. I gotta start using this word, man. [laughing]Tristan: [laughing] It takes a village, okay?Zach: It takes a village, man. Listen, man. I'm noticing--I'm noticing, man, all of my melanated working professionals who are building things are using this language, tribe. I've heard that from Deun Ivory. I've heard that from--I've just heard that from a few different guests. Tye Miles said it. Okay, anyway. Now I'm on a tangent. [laughs] Tristan, it's been a pleasure. God bless. This has been a great time. Hope to have you back, and appreciate your time, man. Tristan: I appreciate you having me on, man. Have a great one.Zach: Peace. Ade: Yo, we're back. Bomb interview as always, Zach. Excited that we were able to get Tristan on the show, and listening to that discussion reminds me that your resume is only one part of your journey in landing a dream job and that your dreams sometimes change, and that's okay too.Zach: For sure. Now, look, I have some bad news for y'all.Ade: No!Zach: No Fave Things this week, but that doesn't mean you can't check out our Fave Things on our website, right?Ade: [makes the "womp-womp" sound] I'm really nailing our sound effects today.Zach: You're doing a great job with the sound effects actually today. In fact, Sound Man, go ahead and drop, like, a small round of applause for Ade for her sound effects today. She came in very strongly on the "whaaaat?" Actually it wasn't raspy at all.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Ayy. Sir, are you coming for me?Zach: Then the womp-womp was very full, so it was good.Ade: Thank you.Zach: No, it was good. But no, really, our Favorite Things section, we've called out--the books, all of the books that we've talked about on the show, they're on that list. DeRay Mckesson's book, J Prince's book, Amy Waninger's book. They're all on this list of Favorite Things. You can go check out some of our favorite foods. I've got the Capital City Mambo Sauce on there. That's right, Capital City--this is not a paid ad. Capital City Mambo Sauce is fire. I ordered two gallons of the sauce about six months ago.Ade: [laughing] You are ridiculous.Zach: [laughing] But anyway, no Favorite Things this week. However, in a couple weeks when we do our Season 1 Wrap Up show, it's gonna essentially be all of this. It's gonna be me and Ade just talking, having a good time, and we'll talk about a variety of Favorite Things, from our favorite episodes to our favorite things on our list, and we'll actually make one last season update to our Favorite Things list, okay?Ade: Yep.Zach: Okay? So there's that, there's that. But we will have it back. Ade: Okay. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well.Zach: That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down and talk about Black Texas Magazine with Founder, Editor & Chief Nickholas Bailey.Learn about Black Texas Magazine here:https://www.blacktexasmag.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is what? That's right, somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows that we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow--that's right, you even guessed it--it's more lit. That's right. So there's lit. This is more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they're extended monologues from just one particular host like myself or Ola or Latricia or Ade, or sometimes, yes, maybe even sometimes, maybe even most times, they're a special chat with a special guest. Today, we have a special guest - Nickholas Bailey. Nick Bailey is the editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine, a media outlet that is dedicated to enriching the lives of people of color across the state and beyond by connecting on a personal level through a passion for leading fulfilling lives. Welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Nick: I'm doing well, how are you?Zach: I'm doing good, man. Look, let's talk about Black Texas Magazine. Where did it start, why the name, and what are y'all trying to achieve?Nick: Well, Black Texas started kind of as a jumping point for me because prior to this, or about--oh, I guess about a year prior to this I was the online editor for a publication called Texas Lifestyle Magazine. Great publication. They've done a lot of great stuff, but as I--as I got further into it, I started to recognize that there was a disconnect between my perspective and the perspective that they were--that they were creating. You know, like, I live a very different lifestyle than the people that they target, you know? I'm not accustomed to paying $300 for a charcuterie board or paying, you know, $1,000 for, you know, a grill set. It just wasn't really my--it wasn't really my thing, and I was pushing for some more relatable content for the average Texan, and it just wasn't--there was a disconnect there, and so after a lot of thinking and a lot of planning I decided to make the jump and create a publication for black people that was essentially the same thing in some ways. Like, I don't want to say that we just copied and pasted the formula because, you know, unfortunately I created a lot of the formula for Texas Lifestyle once I came on, but I would say that our goal is to enrich the life of black Texans and really Texans of all colors by exposing them to new brands, new opportunities, and new experiences that they may not have previously known about or they may not have previously felt like were open to them, you know? So I know for a lot of--for a lot of black people in the community, we--we almost self-segregate with a lot of things, you know? We look at things as, "Oh, that's white people stuff. We don't really--we don't really mess with that," whether it be, you know, simple stuff or the wild stuff like bungee jumping or skydiving, which I'm still kind of on the fence on. Like, they might be able to keep those. [laughs] But even things like, you know, eating at different restaurants or trying different festivals and experiences. Just really making it more palatable for--you know, for the black community, because there are plenty of people in the black community that say, "Hey, I want to live life. I've only got one life. I want to enjoy it while I'm here," and finding the opportunities for them that will enhance their lives is really the big overarching goal for us, but also highlighting the black businesses that are trying that as well along the way.Zach: So it's interesting, right? So I looked at the platform, and, you know, I think what I was taken most aback by was the amount of content, right? Like, you guys--it seems like you guys are publishing something every single day, and so talk to me a little bit about y'all’s challenges in getting this started up and, you know, what goes into managing a digital magazine. How do you juggle--it seems that there's a lot of hats to juggle. It seems that there's a lot of things to do, and I understand that you're also working full-time still.Nick: Yes.Zach: So how do you manage all of that?Nick: I manage that with a lot of stress--a lot of stress, not a lot of sleep, and an overdose of patience, because we do have a small team. We're always looking--like, we're always looking for new writers to bring on-board, but right now we do have a small team, and it's really just a matter of balancing everyone's talents and abilities. Like, for the time being I take on the burden--I take on the bulk of the burden by handling a lot of the administrative tasks. So, like, making sure that content is up on the website, proofreading the content, gathering all of the materials. So that might be, like, getting the photos in order, sorting it--like, sorting our files and documents online. So I do a lot of that stuff, and so I have the writers, and I say, "Hey, I want you to focus on writing," and the plan that I have right now is really to kind of spread that load across--across the team so no one person is having to do all of the writing. 'Cause everybody--like, to my knowledge, everybody else is working full-time somewhere as well. So what I would rather them do is each person write, you know, one or two things a month, and we could be able to keep a steady flow than expecting one person to churn out, you know, a new article every week, you know? And with balancing it with working--like, I work full-time, and for me it's kind of difficult 'cause I work 12-hour shifts. So a lot of my work is done--I guess done at night, so I'm usually up until about 1:00 in the morning making sure that content is looking good, there's no errors and we're gonna be good to go.Zach: So I have another question as a follow-up, right, really to the title of Black Texas Magazine. Has anyone run up on you with, "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that would be racist?"Nick: Not that directly, but it's been one of those side--like, side-swiped questions. Like, "Hm, why is it just for black people?" And kind of insinuating that, and to that I would say, to be honest, most of the public--like, most of the Texas-based publications we have are catered to a white audience. And, you know, I'm not opposed to--I'm not opposed to acknowledging that it may seem--it may come off as a bit contentious to say, "This is a publication for black people," you know, but at the same time it's never been a situation of, you know, "No whites allowed," you know? We've had--we've had white contributors to our publication. We have a lot of white readers. We have readers all over the world, and most of those aren't, you know, nations of color. And so I would say if they want--if they asked the question or they posed the question or the statement "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that'd be racist," I would tell them, "Well, let's go read Texas Highways. Let's go read Texas Monthly. Let's go read Texas Lifestyle." The list could go on. Most publications are catering to a white audience. Like, they may not be as blatant as to say it, but it's one of those--I would say it's one of those underlying things of once you see the subject matter you--there are ways of siphoning out certain groups by the content.Zach: Right. And, you know, it's funny because I think it's easy to forget that white is the default, right? Like, it's--like, you don't have to call something for it to be--the majority of the country is white, so most of the content out there in any type of media is largely going to be white, right? So you don't have to call--I don't have to call something white, something anything, but you do call things--you know, if there is other underrepresented groups, black, XYZ, or Asian-this or Latin-X or Hispanic-this because we're trying to highlight the fact that this is not the default, right? It's not what you immediately consider when you think about whatever audience or population that you're gonna be engaging. Okay, so let me ask you this. You know, you guys landed J Prince recently, [inaudible] J Prince, but how did that happen for you guys? Like, how did it work, and what was that experience like?Nick: For me, honestly, it was an amazing experience. I lucked into it because I got--I got an email from the city of Austin about an event that they were co-hosting. It was just an evening with J Prince where he was just hearing Austin talking about his life, and I went, and I was like--I didn't know what to expect, and I was just like, "Man, I just want to see this guy in person, see, you know, really what he's about and just kind of, you know, measure him up instead of just looking through a screen," and it was a cool event. The event went off really well, and at the end there was a line to, like, you know, take a picture with him and stuff, and I was like, "Okay, cool." You know, "I don't mind getting a picture with J Prince. That'd be kinda cool," and so I get in line, and as always they're trying to sell the book or sell merchandise and stuff like that, and just out of, you know, the spur of the moment I'm like, "I'll buy the book," and so I get the book, and when it's my turn he autographs the book and everything, and I ask him a question, and the question I asked him is, you know, "Hey--" Like, he talks about--he talked a lot about, you know, replacing IGs with OGs in terms of, you know, getting off of social media and really linking up with people that have done what we do before us and really gaining some knowledge from them, especially, like, in different entertainment avenues. A lot of the OGs that we came up with came up through nefarious ways, you know? They sold drugs, they robbed people. They committed crimes to get the assets that they needed, and so I asked him, you know, "How can we look up to these OGs and get advice from them when we're at a age where we don't want to take those penitentiary chances to make it into the industry?" And I think it kind of--it kind of put him on the spot, and he stopped and he said, "You know what? Talk to me after the show."Zach: You asked him--you asked him that in front of a bunch of people?Nick: No, it was--like, it was a one-on-one thing. I asked him, like, face-to-face, maybe two feet away from him.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Well, shout out to you for asking J Prince such a very pointed question to his face.Nick: You can't get the answers you don't ask for.Zach: [laughs] That's a good point.Nick: You know? 'Cause I would love to be in different indust--like, involved in different industries, but I don't wanna have to go sell coke to get the money for it.Zach: Straight up, yeah.Nick: But at the same time, trying to save money from a regular 9-to-5 is a very slow process.Zach: And this is the thing I think people forget, like, man, the blessing of an--you cannot, you cannot undervalue initial capital, man. Like--so you know, like, even when you talk about Jay-Z's album, the last album he dropped right, and he was talking about how I flipped this, and it's like, "Well, Jay-Z, man, you started off with, like, 400 racks. You had $400,000 from the coke game, so you say." So it's like, "Okay, yeah." If you--if you gave a very ambitious, you know, entrepreneurial person of color $400,000, man, that's gonna--yeah, they could flip that into something too. I'm not saying--they might not flip it into a billion, but they can flip it into something because they have the initial capital. So to your point, like, how--that just was such a good question because, like, okay, I'ma talk--if I talked to Jay-Z for an hour, people would say, "I'd love to talk to Jay-Z for an hour 'cause then I would learn how to be a billionaire." It's like, "Well, Jay-Z's gonna be like, "Well, I had initial capital of $400,000 because I sold drugs, and it was tax free. So I basically started with a 400--" Like, most black people don't have seed money, hundred thousand dollar seed money. They have a little bit of change here and there that they scrounge up, like you said. Like, that they hold over from their full-time job after paying off this and paying off that and whatever debt they have, and they have, you know, a little bit of change, not enough money to build an empire. You know what I'm saying?Nick: Absolutely, and that was--and after listening to Jay-Z's album, that was one of the things that I kind of left with. I was like, you know, "He talks a lot about, you know, these amazing ways to do better," and it's one of those things of "If you knew better, you'd do better." And that's cool. Like, I would love to buy a piece of art that's worth, you know, 1 million, hold it until it's worth 2 million, sell it when it's worth 10 million. That's cool. I would love to be able to give that to my children, but I gotta get that first million.Zach: Right. [laughs]Nick: It's easy--it's easy to compound wealth once you have it, and a lot of rappers talk about that part, but they don't really tell us how we can get the money, how we can get started without selling drugs, without robbing people. That's--like, that's the link they never give us, and I think that unfortunately that's because a lot of them don't have the answer for that, aside from "Sell drugs. Rob people." And that's an unfortunate truth. Like, I get it, that's the environment they came up in, but if we're trying to do better now we need new lessons.Zach: Right, right. So let me ask--let me ask you this. What advice would you have for black and brown folks trying to get, you know, multi-effort ventures off of the ground? So you have a full-time job. You've launched a magazine. It takes multiple hands, driving it and grinding it. It clearly--like you said earlier, it's stress. It's late nights. What are you--what advice would you have for folks who look like us trying to do similar things?Nick: The strongest advice I would give is work together. In college I ran a midterm program, and one of the things I taught was the idea of collective development. You know, especially if you're starting off with little to no capital. You're--like, you're working at a point where you're not getting paid. You need to find a team of people who are willing to work with you to build something up that benefits everybody, you know? Like, Black Texas isn't just me. It's not the Nick Bailey show, you know? My byline comes up very little. For me, I look at it as a plat--as I'm creating a platform to advance the careers of other people, you know? Because as we gain our audience and as we, you know, get that brand retention, that brand recognition, people start coming to the website looking for other people. They're not looking for me, you know? They're looking to see, "Oh, let's see what's up with these movie reviews. Let's see what's up with these fashion tips. Let's see what's up with these house-keeping tips." You know, "What events are coming up?" I want--I want people looking for the thoughts and ideas of other people, and for me in my particular situation I can say, "Hey, I can't pay you to write right now, but what I can give you is an opportunity to grow your name," because not everybody has the money to start up a website, you know? Even the cheapest websites that aren't free aren't cheap. Once you get past the, you know, this is BrandXYZ.WordPress.com and you get to just Brand.com, it becomes a different--a different financial burden, and not everybody--not everybody is willing to take that risk, and I've gotten to a point where I took that risk to--ideally to make it easier for other people. So I would say, you know, one, be willing to work together. Understand the vision. Don't just work for anybody, but understand the vision. Understand what it means for you personally and how it's going to benefit you personally, and then you give it your all, you know? Like, that's the truest thing that I can tell anyone, and also set ego aside, you know? Not everybody's going to be #1, and not everybody needs to be #1. You can easily do amazing as a strong #2, and what I mean by that is not everybody has to be a CEO. Not everybody has to be the founder, the president. You know? Like, I don't introduce myself as the founder or CEO of Black Texas because that's not important to me, you know? I want this to be something much bigger than myself. I'm the editor-in-chief, which is just to say I'm the guy steering the ship right now, you know? Like, I don't look at the--I don't look at the Dallas Cowboys and think of who the owner is, I look at the Cowboys and think of who are their star players, you know? Who are the people who made the team breathe? And that's how I look at--that's how I look at Black Texas and really any business, you know? We know--we know who Mark Zuckerberg is. That's cool. He made it that way. He's not the one looking at all this Russia info. He's not the one making sure that you wind up in Facebook jail for some post, [laughs] and those people may not have the fame, but they're getting us all a paycheck.Zach: Right. Right, right. Man, this has been dope, man. Do you have any shout outs for us?Nick: I did not think of shout outs. Let's see. If there are people I'd shout out, honestly I would just give shout outs to my team. It's been--like, we launched this year mid-January, and it's been a wild ride along the way. I've taken risks. I've asked them to follow me, and they have, and we really--we really made a lot of strides this year, and I'm proud to see the work they're putting in and what we're able to accomplish when we work together, you know? This is the first time that I've really steered a team like this, and to see them, you know, putting up the hard work is honestly amazing. I would want to give a shout out to my family, you know? Like, I love my daughters, but most importantly, like, my parents. They have been a well of support for me. They've encouraged me to, you know, chase my dreams. They've helped me when I--like, when I wasn't sure about myself, and, you know, my grandma's been my day one, and she's helped me in life as well, but I don't know. I would say--if I had to give a specific shout out it would be to my father, and that's because he gave me the capital to get this magazine started, you know? 'Cause, like, every year he'll give--like, he'll give a gift for Christmas, which really isn't a gift to me, it's more of a "Hey, here's some money from me. Get gifts for the girls," because he doesn't really--he doesn't really celebrate Christmas. Different religion. That's not really his thing, and so I get it, but this last year he gave me a little more than usual, and he said, you know, "Take this and do what, you know, you feel you need to do with it," and I was just at a loss, and I thought and I thought about it. I strategized, and I prayed over it, and I said, "You know, I have to be willing to take that jump," you know? It called me back to a quote from Steve Harvey talking about getting to success, and he said, you know, "You have to be willing to jump. You can't be successful on the ledge," and so I went for it. And so, you know, I've got to give it my all because I can't--I can't let folks down. That's not my thing.Zach: Awesome, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You have been listening to Nick Bailey, editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with creator Matthew Manning to discuss his entrepreneurial journey in launching Gumbo Media.Learn about Gumbo here: https://gumbomedia.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, every episode is someone's first episode, so for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Today, we have a special guest - Matthew Manning. Matthew is the co-founder and [inaudible] director of Gumbo Media, a trans-media storytelling platform of curated content and experiences to expand the narrative of black life through various programs, services, and content platforms. Gumbo is amplifying new nuance and more humanity into our stories, creating pipelines that encourage us to speak for ourselves. Today, Gumbo is a coalition of over 60 artists, activists, entrepreneurs, and allies committed to a collective vision of inclusive representation. Matthew, welcome to the show, man.Matthew: Hey, thank you, man. I really appreciate it.Zach: Hey, man, I appreciate you being here, man. Now, look, today we're talking about starting a startup. Talk to us a little bit about your history and how Gumbo started.Matthew: Yeah. I think there are a few ways to tell this story, but to keep it simple, Gumbo, which was formally Royal Media, really emerged from a gap. It was a gap that my co-founder and I, Courtney Phillips, felt--to be honest on a personal level, but it translated into some of the professional. Representation was lacking, even in our jobs, in our classes. You know, anywhere we went that was professional or academic, educational, just social, it felt like we were often wearing a mask, or perhaps more aptly like we were living half of ourselves. And when the deaths of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling happened in the same week a few days apart, it was a difficult week for us. They were killed, and we instantly felt this shift that we couldn't come back from. And this had been already--this had already been happening with the deaths of black [inaudible] by the police force and kind of the growth of racial discord, but this heightened those feelings. We were forever changed, and we knew that our work in some way had to reflect it. One of the things that we were saying at the time was, you know, we really feel our tide shifting. And so what we did was we ideated and thought about what is a platform that we can build that allows these stories to be better heard, that allows us to feel like that representation is present in our own spaces? You know, kind of a cross-culture, and so essentially we built a squad of creatives who felt the same way, and then we asked ourselves, you know, how we can build--how we can build a platform and use content and storytelling in unique ways to really amplify the underrepresented, if you will. So additionally, how can we ensure that the voices of everyday people aren't swallowed or silenced by, you know, silencing forces, including sometimes those that are intra-communal, those that are within our own community. And lastly, we thought about how do we ensure that this becomes an equitable platform where others can engage and tell their stories, not merely a stage where we yell out the answers? You know? We don't want to speak for people. We want to create a pipeline and a platform that allows for people to speak for themselves, and that's really where the--you know, where the secret sauce is for us, if you will. We're all exploring, learning, and growing together, and black being has bound us, and so we really wanted to create a space that honors this truth that is consciously committed to amplifying all of its nuances and all of its complexities, especially by offering up space to the creatives among us who really do their thing and allow those expressions to be seen and heard around the world.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So I'm curious, right? So in starting any startup, building any company, you're gonna take your Ls along the way, right? So I'm curious, what were some of the biggest Ls--and I'ma call those Ls lessons, folks--that you've taken in starting a startup?Matthew: Well, this is my second go around, and so a lot of them I gathered from the first and used as kind of fuel for the second, and so some of the things that I think I've really learned are--and I'll speak more to the lesson portion of it. One is strip away your ego, especially as men. I think it's ingrained that, you know, we're kind of conditioned to feel like we know and we have all the authority and the agency and our voice, and so I think it's important to strip away our ego and to understand if we're doing what we're doing for ourselves or for others. I think it's okay to be both, but others should be a part of it, at least if it's something that's socially-minded, right? And for us it's more important that we get content right or that we tell the story in the--in the right way, that we are as inclusive as we can be, than that it is that I'm right, and so I think that's something that has been to remind ourselves of, all of us, but for me that starts with me, especially as kind of a leader in the company along with a few other folks. It's important that I try to be as prideless and egoless as I can be. We can be proud of our work. We can have confidence in our voice, but those voices can't be silencing of other people. Another one is just don't be afraid to fail. In fact, I've learned to really embrace it. Not in the sense that I'm encouraging or that I'm seeking out failure, but in a way I--I suppose in a way I actually am, you know? In a sense that I want to succeed, but I also know and recognize that failing fast and failing forward is one of the fastest ways to grow, you know? It's important to seek out growth. It's important to seek out criticism even, to better understand how we can refine our own processes and things of that nature. So failing, especially as an entrepreneur, allows you to really be the best version of yourself and to implement those lessons moving forward. Beyond that, it's really about doing it for the love, you know? Passion is, I think, the only fuel that's really strong enough to push us through some of these experiences. Being an entrepreneur is hard, man. As you know, it's hard work. You and your team are grinding every day. You're building. When you look at something that you admire, like a company, a movement, a platform, whatever it might be, and you say, "Okay, I want to get there," like, that's a--that's a large question. How do you get from nothing to...Zach: Something.Matthew: Everything that you admire. To something, exactly. It's a hard thing, and so if you're not doing it for the passion, if you're not doing it for the love, then, you know, then I just don't know that you're gonna have enough fuel, enough motivation to push you through all those little moments, all those difficult questions, all those shortcomings, because those are inevitable parts of the journey, and they're actually part of what makes the journey so beautiful. So valuing every step of that journey is a lot easier the second time around, granted, but those are all valuable things to keep in mind for me. Those have been big lessons.Zach: Man, that's a great point. And it's funny because, you know, you and I connected back--initially back when, you know, Gumbo was Royal, and I was working on another--on another nonprofit, and, you know, definitely--this is also my second go around with Living Corporate, right, and trying to figure out and take the lessons learned from my past venture to this, and it's like, okay. You're absolutely right. Like, failing forward, right? And, like, to your point around being passionate and letting that passion drive you, 'cause I can tell you--I mean, I completely vibe with you on the whole "It's a lot of work," and it has to be something you're passionate about because, you know, it's gonna be long days and long nights, and if you don't really, really care, like really care about what you're doing, you know, you'll end up taking time off, you know? Your content gets delayed. You get delayed, and then out of nowhere you look up and you haven't moved anything in a month, right? And a month in an entrepreneur's--a month of no activity in an entrepreneur's world is like a year, right? Like, you've got to keep it going. So--Matthew: Then there's also the comparative sense too, right? Which is that if you don't really care, there's always somebody out there that does care and that cares more and that is putting in that work, and so if you really want to make it, if you want to, you know, make what you're doing a success, if not for yourself then for the others that you're serving, then, you know, you need to put in that--you need to put in that work to get there and be smart about it.Zach: Right. And it's funny, right? So it's--and of course there's a duality in, like, not being so comparative that you end up robbing yourself of your own journey and your own development and driving your thing, but there's still the reality of, like, "Look, there's two people, Matthew, sitting down right now talking about something similar to what you and I are talking about and grinding," right? And there's always somebody else out there trying to--and if the goal is for your platform to grow and get out there, no one's gonna cry for you, right? You have to go, and you have to go get it, and I think--because I'm a Type A in that particular way and I'm a driver that really resonates with me, but like I said earlier, I think you have to kind of balance it between not going to the far end where you end up sapping yourself of the joy of even what you got into it for, you know what I mean?Matthew: Absolutely, I agree.Zach: So let me ask you this. What was the--what was the final push? Let's talk about Gumbo. Let's talk about Gumbo. What was the final push for you to pursue and commit to growing Gumbo full-time? And what all are you working on these days?Matthew: Yeah. So the final push was--I mean, it was interesting, right? 'Cause sometimes I say and think often that, you know, life is like water. I think I heard Will Smith say this someday, and it's just kind of laws of attraction, right? Like, you put in--the energy you put in comes back to you, and life in a lot of ways is kind of like water in that way in that if you make a decision, if you decide what you want to do and you start moving, it'll get out of the way. It'll make a path for you, even if it's masked under something else, right? So when we started at the time what was Royal Media, which our language at the time was celebrating the complexity of black life, which we're still doing, but it's now more embedded in what we're doing, I actually was laid off my full-time job. I was a nonprofit consulting. The company--I won't mention the company, but they've grown. I was part of, you know, an 8-person team that had grown to about 16 people, and then they laid off about three quarters of the workforce in a matter of months, and I was on the front end of that. So it wasn't just me, but I think likely part of the energy I was putting into that job was something that was lackluster. I was doing my job, I was being professional, but I also recognized that what I really wanted to do was this work over here. What I really wanted to do was commit to telling the stories and building the pipelines that allow black folks to really celebrate and honor themselves and each other, and that was passion to me, and I think that was felt, but I also think that was felt, you know, kind of cosmically, in a cosmic sense if you will. And so that was kind of a forced push, but at that time I recognized that, "All right. Well, if I'm already in this space, if I've already kind of taken the jump, even forcibly, maybe it's wise that I use the time that I have here to commit to growing this company as much as I can," especially as one of its co-founders. That's an unfair weight to put on other people, you know? When it's not paid work yet, when it's something that's scaling. It's, like, early, early, early stages of startup life. Maybe I'm the right person to do that, and so I did, and I've kind of continued to grind on that. It hasn't been easy by any--you know, any stretch of the word, but it was simple, right? I think there's a difference between simplicity and [inaudible], and I think we often conflate the two. It's a choice. The choice is simple - do it or don't. The path can be very difficult, and the path has been difficult, but the choice was simple. I knew what I wanted to do and I committed to doing it, and, you know, (tried it?) to say after some time we built enough--Gumbo's essentially an umbrella brand, and so it has other subsidiary groups and companies, and one of them is a creative consultancy, and now I'm one of the full-time consultants in that group. So now I'm starting to pay myself through business revenue to do work that ultimately feeds my soul, feeds my passion, and is a company that I started, and that feels great. And so it's taken some time, but it's becoming sustainable work now for me. And so it was kind of a forcible thing, but it was also energy that I put out there that came back at me and said, "You know what? You're ready for this."Zach: So for those--for those who say they can't afford to pursue their startup full-time, like, what would you say? Right? And if I may ask, like, how did you make it work before you were able to pay yourself?Matthew: Right. It's difficult. I would say that there are--one person I really admire who's hustling in this space, and you guys admire them as well, is John Henry.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout out to John Henry, straight up.Matthew: Yeah, shout out to John Henry from Harlem Capital. He's doing some amazing work. One thing that he says often is, you know, you can work two things, but the moment that the new thing that you're building is losing money by not committing full-time, that's the moment to transition, and so I think if you have the capacity and you have kind of the agency to be at a job that you can enjoy, that you can continue to grind at while you're building your venture on the side, I think that is a wise choice if you have that--if the energy's there, right? If it fits, until there's a moment, and you'll know when that moment comes. Like, you'll know when you're actually being a detriment to your venture because you'll feel that your energy is the most valuable asset you have, and so there will come a shifting moment where you can make that shift and take that plunge. Beyond that though, I would say it's really about thinking creatively about your capacity and about what you're able to do, you know? Especially as creatives. A lot of us have skills that are accessible and valuable as freelancers. I mean, we've started this consultancy, and I know that this is a part of what's paying us now, but the valuable feedback that I recognized in that--you know, stepping back for a moment is that we have a pool of creatives who are looking for work, and a whole lot of business is coming to us asking for work to be done. So there is work out there ready to be accomplished. There are people who are requesting services, and so there are ways to kind of creatively find, you know, services to help pay you and support you while you're building what you're doing. Maybe it's about living a life that's a little bit more--a little bit more frugal, living a life that's a little bit more reserved, you know? But you can make it kind of on a part-time basis depending on what your expenses are and what you're doing to buy yourself that time so that you can open up as much flexibility and time as possible during the day. You know, I didn't think about how much of a privilege it was that I could have a meeting any literally time of the day, you know? If I'm working 9-to-5, a lot of people don't want to meet--a lot of business people specifically, new partners, potential investors, they don't want to meet after 5:00, they don't want to meet on the weekends, and, like, I don't know what my solution would be to that apart from taking off time from work if I had a full-time job. So I do think there is a moment when you know that a plunge is necessary to take that next step, you know? Businesses are all about plateaus. Well, they're all about growth, but every growth curve has a plateau unless you make another shift, unless you, you know, invite new kind of breath, new life, new wind into the company, and for me I recognize that in order to take this to the next level, I need to take a step, and I need to do this for myself passion-wise and joy-wise, but also for the team in terms of the work that we're doing. So it's just about being creative, and that's kind of what I did. So I did some graphic design, I did some editing, content creation, things of that nature, you know? But I'd be lying if I said it was easy. It was not easy. It was one of the harder things I've ever done, but it paid off.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, before we let you go, do you have any shout outs or any parting words?Matthew: Yeah. I mean, I would love to shout out the squad always. Courtney, Andre, [inaudible], Amir, Asia, Mike, John, [inaudible]...Zach: Let's get some air horns for the team, for the squad.[Sound Man throws 'em in]Matthew: Yeah. I mean, we do it all collectively, you know? And I feel blessed to call these people my family. I guess what I would say is to get yourself a squad, you know? Failure, I think, is easier when it's shared. Triumphs are more fun when they're collective, but also strategy becomes easier, I think, for a startup to fill. Like, when you're filling an asset map, when you're filling all of the things that you're capable of doing, it's easy when you have a team. It's more enjoyable, and I think it's a great way to understand that, you know, my skills may not be in finance per se, but I'm great at this [inaudible] stuff. I'm great at people. I'm great at programs. This person's great at event curation. This person's great at content. So once you start building and assembling that, that's really where it's kind of the shortcut--there are no shortcuts, but it's the faster route, I guess, to finding a more equitable and well-rounded form of success for whatever your business might be, and so that would be my parting words. Those people I love, I'm fortunate to call them family, and I encourage you to get you some of your own.Zach: That's so dope, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.livingcorporate.com. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're gonna just cut all that out. So let me ask--oh, we're gonna cut this 'cause I want to make sure you plug Gumbo, like--Matthew: Oh, yeah.Zach: So I know you gave your parting words, Matthew, but man, we didn't even plug Gumbo. Like, where can people find out more about the platform? Like, plug all your stuff, man. Drop some air horns for Matthew real quick, and then let's go ahead and plug your stuff, brother. Where you at?[Sound Man complies]Matthew: [laughs] Yeah, appreciate that. You know, the best way to find us across the board is GumboMedia.com. We were lucky to get a solid domain, excited about that since we kind of rebranded and relaunched a lot of our mission, and so everything is housed there. You'll find access to all of our content, all of our social, all of that stuff at GumboMedia.com. You can find us on Gumbo Media just by searching really any platform. So yeah, we're--you know, we're out here. We're creating. We're always inviting collaboration, innovation, so reach out, you know? Get involved if you're interested. We have about 60 creatives that we're working with and a core team of about 6 or 7, but we're scaling and building and always looking to build, so hit us up.Zach: Awesome. Well, look, that does it for us, folks. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question that you would like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with Matthew Manning, founder of Gumbo Media. Peace.Matthew: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We speak with Black Girl Ventures founder Shelly Bell about the lack of diversity and inclusion within the venture capital space and the ways we can work to combat the issue.Find out more about Black Girl Ventures: https://www.blackgirlventures.org/Learn about Bumble Bizz here: https://bumble.com/bizzConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: "The fact that African-American founders have limited access to investment has been well-documented, but you might not know that that problem is replicated in the venture capital world too. In recent years, several black-owned or directed VC funds and firms have opened their doors with a focus on minority and women-owned businesses, but as it turns out, many VCs are hitting the same obstacles as the founders they're trying to invest in - access to capital. According to PitchBook, American VC funds raised approximately $40.6 billion in 2016, with this year on course to make 2017 the fourth consecutive year with more than $40 billion raised. But with less than 3% of VC funds employing black [inaudible] investment professionals, only a small fraction of that sum will find its way to businesses owned or run by people of color." This excerpt is from Barry A. Williams' article "One Reason Black Founders Don't Get Enough Funding - Black VCs Don't Either." It explains the methods that entrepreneurs of color employ to support their startups, none of them nearly as effective as their white counterparts. The data doesn't lie. Less than 3% of all VC funding goes to entrepreneurs of color. In a world that is more empowered now than ever before to pursue entrepreneurial ventures, what can people of color do to garner the financial support they need? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: [singing] Money, money, money... money! Ade: Child, what? [laughs] What are you talking about?Zach: [laughing] What? Listen, today is all about the lack of diversity in venture capital, specifically the reality that there's a huge disparity in the distribution of funds between white and brown and black entrepreneurs. So it comes down to...Ade: Oh, right. Money. Okay, all right. Capital. I'm with you now. Well, you're right. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society. We need money to do anything, so money is the life of startups.Zach: Yep, and you know what? I have an excerpt from an article I want to share. This is from Megan Rose Dickey of TechCrunch called "Venture Capital's Diversity Disaster." Here we go. Quote, "Just 1% of venture capitalists are Latinx. Only 3% are black. White people, unsurprisingly, make up 70% of the venture capital industry, according to a recent analysis by Richard Kerby, a partner at Equal Ventures. Compared to Kerby's 2016 analysis, women now make up 18% of the VC industry versus just 11% back then. At an intersectional level, black and Latinx women make zero percent of the venture capital industry," end quote. So this is talking about the industry, whereas your initial commentary was about VC recipients. But I would contend that the lack of diversity within the industry supports the disparate funding between white and ethnic minorities, especially women of color. Ade: Right. And to be clear, minorities are out here. Like, we are out here pursuing entrepreneurship, and we do seek funding for our startups. I know we've been sharing articles throughout the show, but I have another one. This excerpt is from a Forbes article written by Daniel Applewhite called "Founders in Venture Capital: Racism Is Costing Us Billions." So it says, "In 2016, the Center for Global Policy Solutions reported that, due to discriminatory financing practices and a bias towards companies primarily operated by white males, America is losing out on over 1.1 million minority-owned businesses, and as a result forgoing over 9 million potential jobs and $300 billion in collective national income. Less than 1% of American venture capital-backed founders are black, and the percentage of blacks in decision-making roles within venture capital isn't much better. Pattern recognition has enabled VCs to mitigate risks, but has also limited their profit potential and created an inherent funding bias. This bias stems from barriers to early stage capital, a lack of representation in the investing space, and is perpetuated by systems of racism that destroy opportunities within communities of color." So having read all that, wouldn't it be great if we could get someone, maybe a person of color--a woman of color, even, who has created a non-profit organization specifically built to acquire VC for ethnic minority-owned businesses? That's very, very specific, but, I mean, if we can get J Prince on here, if we can get DeRay Mckesson on here, I feel like, you know, big things poppin'. We can be a little picky. What you feel?Zach: I feel you, and I think you mean our guest, owner of Black Girl Ventures, Shelly Bell. Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on. Drop 'em on in there. Let's go.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, all right. Still extra. Next up, we're gonna get into our interview with our guest Shelly Bell. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Shelly Bell, founder of Black Girl Ventures. Shelly, welcome to the show. How are you?Shelly: Hi, thank you. I'm good. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really good. So look, I feel as if you have one of the most straight-forward organization names out there, but talk to us about how Black Girl Ventures came about and what was the inspiration behind it.Shelly: So with Black Girl Ventures, we work to create access to capital for black and brown women entrepreneurs. It started because I'm an entrepreneur myself. I have a couple of my own ventures. My mom invested in me, and I really hit the ground running in building my t-shirt line called Made By A Black Woman, which fed into me actually starting my own print shop called Misprint USA, and I was grinding so hard at that, but I realized that during the process of me being on my grind I didn't have a community. And so I'm an artist. I've done performance poetry, and so through that I had done a lot of community building. So I'm like, "Hey, you know what? I know how to build community. I know how to bring people together. Why don't we just throw everybody together and give the money away?" 'Cause at this time, a lot of the news was coming out about women not having access to capital. And I'm like, "All right. This is a simple solution." So when I started it, it was really just a matter of bringing people together, everybody throwing some money into the pot, and then us creating, you know, some capital for women entrepreneurs. The first one, I barely even marketed it. We had about 30 women in a house in southeast D.C. We got together. I cooked all the food myself, which I will never do again. [laughs] Yeah, we had about four women pitch. We voted with, like, marbles and coffee cups. Like, I put each person's, like, name in a coffee cup, and then after they did their pitch, we had everybody in the audience ask questions and then vote by using their marble. So we just gave the money right back out in cash at that time. Like, I wasn't even thinking that it would be as huge as it's become. Now here we are two years later, over 20,000 people in our audience. We're in three states - D.C., Philly, and Balt--I'm sorry, in three--in three--yeah, three states, but three cities - D.C., Baltimore, and Philly. We're about to do--in the fall we have Chicago, Atlanta, and then another D.C., and we're in conversation with a lot of the small- to mid-sized cities about coming there next year. We're talking to people in Kansas City. We're talking to people in Durham, in Memphis, New Orleans, Albuquerque, Salt Lake City, because the larger cities we found are some really great, like, validators to say, "Oh, we did New York, we did Chicago, we did D.C., we did Atlanta," but really we're looking at, like, where do people have the most need with the least, like, activity that is culturally censored for them?Zach: That's amazing, and again, I'm just so excited that you're here. You know, I'm curious, what are some of the common misconceptions about venture capital that Black Girl Ventures seeks to clarify?Shelly: Yeah. So common misconceptions about venture capital. Huh. I'm not--like, I'm not exactly sure that I would say there's common misconceptions about venture capital per se. Maybe that it's, like--venture capital has become very sexy, and I think that people just don't understand who should get it, why they give it. Like, venture capitalists want to make money. Like, that's it. Like, the center of the day, the center of the round, how can your thing bring return? And if you are not so hardcore about that on your business, then you're gonna have a long road to go with venture capital. It's not grant capital. It's not a loan. Well, I mean, there's different kinds of deals that can be what you call a convertible note, which is basically a loan and [inaudible] and some other investment jargon, but ultimately you should just know that it's about the returns. Like, can you give return on investment? And fairly quick, you know? But quick in this sense means, you know, five years, three to five years. Like, it's a long game too, but the people want to see that the potential for returns are there. Zach: So in building out Black Girl Ventures, at what point did you realize, like, "Wow, this is a--this is really significant." Like, "This has some serious traction to it?"Shelly: Probably I would say at the beginning of 2017. I had a volunteer team of seven people where we decided to do it quarterly, and the first one we did, it was in March of 2017, and we started getting in applications at that time, and so we got a nice amount of applications with a low amount of marketing. 'Cause again, like, I'm just kind of throwing it out there, my network and the word of mouth being spread. Over the course of the year, just seeing it move and grow and grow and grow and then winning Entrepreneur of the Year for 2017 for [inaudible] D.C. and the people who voted for that. I mean, just like, I think the reaction from the women we serve is really what was caused me to be like, "Wow." Like, "We're really doing something." Like, our Baltimore winner from October of 2017, when she won, she cried. We did South by Southwest, and the girl who won, she cried for, like, 5 minutes, and they're--and the things that they're saying to me is that sometimes this is maybe their first win, is coming into a place where a group of people are supporting you, and, like, a group of people are just there to support you, a space that is created [inaudible] and then an audience of people who are there to support you. So I think, like, as the--as the audience has grown and as our traction has grown and the feedback that we're getting back, I'm just like, "Wow, okay. So we're not stopping this." Like, we're gonna keep going. Yeah, just seeing the reaction from the audience, seeing the reaction from the people that are pitching has been the thing.Zach: So how important--how important would you say resilience is for those who are seeking venture capital and really seeking to engage that space? People who are seeking to gain capital.Shelly: It's everything. I mean, resilience is it. Like, there's nothing else. [laughs] Because you've got to keep pushing. You want to keep refining your idea or your business to get to know where those returns are coming back, and venture capital is not for everybody. So, you know, you could be the person that needs to crowdfund. You could be the person who needs a loan. You could be the person that needs to focus on customer acquisition. Venture capital may or may not be the thing for you. I think it's--again, it's become sexy now because you can get a large amount of money at once, but at the same time, you know, you're building a relationship where you have to--you have to make sure that you're getting ret--that the returns are coming back. So, I mean, the resilience comes when you get a no, you know? Like, a "No, that's not gonna work for me," or a "No, I don't think that idea is gonna bring returns, or "No--" Nos are kind of hard to get when you're in need. So when you're, like, really wanting, needing the money to get to a certain place and you feel like you just can't get it, when you're focused on venture capital in particular, it can be hard, and especially because, like, there's a lot of translation work that needs to be done. There's a lot of cultural misunderstanding between, like, VCs and entrepreneurs. There's still a lot of work to be done on, like, you know, women getting invested in and women of color getting invested in and, like, diversity and inclusion when it comes to people's portfolios, because the pattern that has been consistently matched is white male who can sleep on couches for months and, you know, not eat to build a business, and so people, you know, venture capitalists have traditionally said, "Okay, this is the model for who builds successful companies." I think we're seeing that shift a little bit with the rise in investment in the beauty industry for black women in particular. I think we're gonna see a shift more as more people start pushing out that, like, "Hey, these industries," and even black and brown folks that own tech companies can also be invested in and show returns and that, like, the only pattern--I think we're gonna start seeing or showcasing a new pattern to match. This is one of the things that we at Black Girl Ventures are passionate about, is saying like, "Hey, yes, the white guy that sleeps on couches for months, goes home and just doesn't eat and builds a major tech company, yes, that's one pattern and that has worked, but also it's the, you know, black woman straight out of college who has been working on her idea the entire time. Also it's the, you know, woman of color in general who has, you know, pulled together as much money as she can from her family and her community to put into her idea and is now seeing, you know, 3X, 5X, 10X returns. Like, also it's the beauty business--the beauty industry, also it's the feminine care industry, also--you know, also it's the hair industry. Also it's the child care ind--you know, I think that as we--the health care industry. You know, I think that as we--as many people as we can push out into the open that are doing different kinds of businesses that also can show returns, that also can match up to what VCs are looking for, we can start to create a new pattern for people to match.Zach: So, you know, I wanted to ask this a little bit earlier, but I don't want to end this interview without asking now. So I--what really caught my eye about making sure that we wanted to have you on this show was a blog post that you wrote on Medium where someone reached out to you and said, "Okay, yeah. Black Girl Ventures. How would you feel if it was White Male Ventures?" Would you mind talking about the blog that you wrote in response to that? And I believe it got a ton of traction. Would you mind just talking a little bit more about that particular piece?Shelly: Yeah. So I was on Bumble, the dating app, looking for dates, and I swiped this white guy right, he swipes me right. On Bumble, you know, women have to do the initial greeting, so I greet him, and then he comes back and says, "Oh, well, if I started a company called White Male Ventures, you would go ape[shit?]," and my response to him was, "No, that would be venture capital. Have you seen who's getting it?" And he said some other rude things, but not before I could get it--he deleted the thread, but not before I could get a screenshot of the message. And so I was just--something was just, like, [inaudible] about it, so I did. I went to Medium, wrote the article, posted [inaudible], and then instead of having, like, an emotional response towards him or, like, racism or, you know, all of these kind of discrimination, diversity and inclusion type stuff, I decided to just use it to talk about what we are doing and the work that we do want to see in the world and the work that all of these amazing women's organizations are doing, and I listed the women's organizations in the article. And so I just--I pushed it to Twitter, you know, like any other Medium post that you write, and I didn't--I didn't think twice about it. So I noticed that people--you know, I was getting some traction on it, and Bumble actually tweeted me back, you know? But I'm thinking, "Oh, okay." You know how sometimes if you tweet things, people will say, like, "Oh, thank you," or, you know, "Thank you for your mention," or "We're sorry you went through that," or something like that, so I'm just thinking it's just a regular post. I didn't even look at it at first, and then something was just telling me to look at the post, so I looked at the post, and it is one of the content editors, and she's just like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry you went through this, but we love what you're doing, you know? Send me an inbox message." So I DM'd her my email. We end up--she emails me and says, you know, "We don't stand for this kind of thing on our platform. We're sorry that you had to go through this. We're a woman-owned company, and we see that you're a woman-owned company, and we love what you're doing. We want to figure out how we can get involved with what you're doing. Can we sponsor a pitch competition? Can we see if we can offer mentors? Whatever you want. The ball is in your court." So from there, I'm just--I see the email and I'm almost in tears because I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, one, my journey as building this movement, like, I'm constantly figuring out and pressing for corporate sponsors, and, like, now I'm looking at engaging, like, employee resource groups as well because we learned that, through Black Girl Ventures being on internal calendars and being shared internally, that it's actually activating black and brown employees to be able to, like, feel like they can be a part of the community and what other community work they can do. So then I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, I've been really saying, like, if we could just start with one really great corporate sponsor, we could push into some different directions to improve some of the cases that we want. So we've been in conversation with them ever since then, and that was about three months ago. So now Bumble is actually--and this will be my first announcement of it, Bumble is our--one of our official sponsors right now for three pitch competitions. They're sponsoring us for the Chicago, Atlanta, and the next D.C. competition, which are all coming up in October. Atlanta is October 12th, Chicago is October 19th, and D.C. will be October 26th. Bumble has a Bumble Bizz side, so on Bumble you can look for people you want to date, you can look for people just for friends, and then you can look for professionals. And so we're being sponsored by Bumble Bizz, which is the professional side, and the awesome thing about it is we're gonna make it so that people can find each other at the event by using their proximity. So they can register for the Bumble Bizz app, and then you'll be able to actually connect with people in the room. It will be the official app for the [inaudible] pitch competitions and hopefully beyond because it's such a great tool, and you can find people that you want to hire, you can find people to mentor you, you can find people who are doing the work that you're doing just to ask questions of. So it's a powerful business, actual professional app on that side.Zach: That's incredible, and definitely shout out to Bumble Bizz. Air horns for that, and you know what? Also, Shelly, what's really incredible is that--what I'm hearing is the fact that you took the time to speak truth to power and not kind of shrink away from one, a frustrating and insulting moment, and you used it for a platform to speak to what you actually, to your point, are doing, so that's amazing. Where can people learn more about Black Girl Ventures?Shelly: Yeah. You can find us at BlackGirlVentures.org. You can also follow us on Instagram @BlackGirlVentures, you can follow us on Twitter @BGirlVentures, and on Facebook it's Facebook.com/BlackGirlVentures.Zach: Okay, that's great. So we're gonna make sure that we have all of that in the show notes as well as the Medium link to that amazing post, and we'll make sure to have the Bumble Bizz info in there as well. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words?Shelly: Yeah. I wanted to just--I wanted to just mention a couple of our BGV alum who are killing it right now. We have Brittany Young, who has--the name of her company is B-360 Baltimore. B-360 works with kids who ride dirt bikes, 'cause dirt bikes are typically illegal to ride on the street, and she transforms them into engineers by helping them learn how to actually fix their dirt bikes and, like, actually, like, create 3D helmets and some really cool things. She is now an Echoing Green fellow and was just featured on the Afropunk stage for their solution session. We have Miracle Olatunji, who just--the name of her app is OpportuniME, and she's 18 years old. She placed third in our competition. Her web app helps students find opportunities for scholarships and internships, and she just made it into the Y Combinator virtual startup school, which is major. Y Combinator puts out--their incubator, that's where Twitter came from and a couple of others, like Airbnb. Like, your huge apps that are out right now. So I just wanted to mention them 'cause they are, like, doing such great work. And, I mean, there is a ton of other women that we work with and serve that I'm super proud of and rallying for, so shout out to all the BGV alum, and check us out. We'll be coming to a city near you soon.Zach: Shelly, this has been amazing. I just want to thank you again for taking the time to be on the show. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod, and we can't wait to have you back.Shelly: Thank you. This was great. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: No problem. I'll talk to you soon. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Wow, so shout out to Shelly and Black Girl Ventures. They're addressing such a need.Zach: Yeah, and she has so much going on. We really appreciated her being on the show. Like, make sure y'all check out the show notes to learn more about Shelly and everything happening over at Black Girl Ventures.Ade: Exactly. Well, look, up next we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Join us.Zach: So my favorite thing right now has to be Jamaican food. Sheesh. Let me tell y'all, so good. Rice and beans. Like, just rice and beans. [laughing] Why is it so good? I did not know something so straight-forward could taste so delicious, but it does.Ade: So I have this theory. Stick with me here.Zach: Okay. All right.Ade: That, hands down, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, taste bud for taste bud, the Diaspora has the most flavorful food in the world. Like, the entire African Diaspora put together just, like, will punch you in your taste buds every single time.Zach: I just--I really agree with that, right? I mean, 'cause my two other favorite dishes are Thai food and Indian food. Now, I don't know where they land in the Diaspora, but I know they're brown, right? Ade: Bloop.Zach: Yeah, no, it's delicious, and so shout out to all my real Jamaicans. That's right, shout out to my Jamaicans. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] As opposed to fake ones? Zach: [laughing] As opposed to fake Jamaicans. Shout out to my real Jamaicans out there. Would it be offensive to add some air horns right here?Ade: I do not know. Let's, like, move on from the Rachel Dolezal section. [laughing] But I'm gonna go ahead and oblige your need for your air horns.Zach: Thank you. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns specifically for jerked chicken, rice and beans, beef patties, salt fish. You know what? I'm 'bout to name the whole menu. Sound Man! Just drop the air horns.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, okay. Just don't run off to Jamaica on me, because I will join you and never leave the beach. All right, so my favorite thing right now actually is a book called So Long A Letter by Mariama Ba. It is one of the very first novels written by a Senegalese woman in French, and it is a seminal work in African literature, particularly written by a woman. It is an account of one woman writing to another--they're both widows--written within the context of Muslim women in mourning, one writing to the other and trying to kind of talk her through this extremely patriarchal process of grief and trauma, and it is--it is a story of sisterhood, it is a story of anxiety, of motherhood, of grief, of independence, of women sustaining each other, and obviously this is something--maybe not obviously, but it's something that appeals to me as a feminist and as a woman who one day hopes to raise strong women and who hopes to, you know, hold my sisters up in the same way. So I'm gonna use the term woes, as much as I dislike the originator there, but I'm certainly gonna get a hard copy of So Long A Letter for all my woes. It is very much a book that lends itself to having a conversation about what it means to have a sisterhood. So that's my favorite thing. [laughing] You went from this high of "Let's eat, I'm 'bout it," and I was like, "Let me tell you about how solid we need to be right now."Zach: [laughing] No, but the juxtaposition is what makes us great. We're like the PB and jelly sandwich of podcasting. I don't want to say of all podcasts.Ade: Okay, but first--but first, I need to know - what kind of jelly are you? This will make or break our relationship. I want you to know this right now.Zach: #JellyBandit. I love jelly, but let's figure it out.Ade: Wow. You think you know someone. Goodness.Zach: [laughs] I love jelly. Jelly is great. Actually in Houston, there's a jalapeno jelly, jalapeno strawberry jelly, and it is amazing.Ade: [air horns going off] #StrawberryJelly. #StrawberryPreserves. #--you are just not [inaudible]. Like, I don't--I don't--Zach: So that is my--that is my favorite jelly though. Like, what is your favorite?Ade: I feel like I'm about to get kicked out the gang for this, but I like fig preserves. Now, hear me out.Zach: Fig preserves are good. I like fig preserves.Ade: Okay, and just like that, you saved our friendship. Okay.Zach: [laughs] That's very funny. Fig preserves are great.Ade: Fig preserves. I have--I made a cornbread once with goat cheese, rosemary and fig preserves, and I know somebody is going to say something along the lines of, "Die, you monster," and I want you to know that it was delicious and I'm willing to take that. I'm going to die on that particular hill. Great. Preserves are great.Zach: So anyway, I do feel as if--again, I feel as if it's this type of repertoire, right? This tit-for-tat, as it were, that makes us special, so I appreciate you.Ade: Oh, okay. [inaudible]. Appreciate you too.Zach: Anyway, [laughs] thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Check us out--Ade: You're--Zach: [laughing] All right. Make sure to check us out on Patreon as well. Again, we're Living Corporate, so just pull us up anywhere and you'll find us. That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with FindSpark CEO, public speaker and educator Emily Miethner to share her journey and share tips for young professionals seeking to build their professional network.Learn more about Emily hereLearn more about FindSpark hereTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that's right, more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. If you don't know what I'm talking about when I say more lit, watch this. Sound Man gonna give me some air horns right... here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: And then the beat's gonna change and drop right... here. Now, look, this particular episode we have a very special guest, okay? This guest is named Emily Miethner. Emily is a public speaker, a networker, social media subject matter expert, a consultant, and perhaps most notably she is the CEO of FindSpark, a certified women’s-owned business enterprise that connects employees to top diverse early-career talent and has produced more than 250 career programs and cultivated an online and active community of over 30,000--that's right, three zero, 000--young professionals and top employers including HBO, BuzzFeed, NBC Universal, L'Oreal, Showtime, Grey, Bustle, Ralph Lauren, and Univision, inspiring career optimism in diverse young professionals around the world and empowering them with actionable career changing tips and tools. Now, listen folks, before I even get Emily on the show, you heard me say all those names. You know I'm gonna get at least a couple of those names with Living Corporate. This is crazy. You see these names? Y'all hear these names? Anyway, Emily, welcome to the show. How are you?Emily: I'm doing really well. It's Friday, so I can't complain too much. Zach: That's right. Now Emily, talk to us about FindSpark. Where did the name come from and how did y'all begin?Emily: Absolutely. So we actually went through a name change. So our initial name used to be NY Creative Interns way, way back in the day, but that gives a little sneak peek into the inspiration behind starting it. So I was a creative young student myself at one point, and really during my college years is when I realized that there really weren't a lot of great career resources out there, especially ones that focused on networking and building relationships. And I found that to be immensely powerful and important in my own career even just starting out looking for internships and my first jobs, and so I knew that I wanted to create something that really emphasizes the importance of creating a strong network for yourself early on and also to create actually fun and enjoyable experiences in ways for employers to connect with talent and doing it in a very inclusive way where everyone can feel welcome, whether it was their, you know, first time networking or millionth time networking. And so I took the skills that I had in then planning and social media, and that's what I really used to start FindSpark and create these experience for people of all different backgrounds to get a better understanding of all the different types of career opportunities that are out there and get, you know, better access to them, regardless of, you know, where their starting point is.Zach: That's amazing. So as I mentioned in your introduction, and I hyped it up, but I don't really think it was hype. You've been able to connect with some fairly major names. So first off, major props to you and air horns are gonna be placed right... here [Sound Man throws 'em in] because of all these crazy amazing brands, but secondly, how did you do it? And wait, before you answer the second question, my third question is how can you hook up Living Corporate with some of these amazing names? 'Cause these names are crazy. Emily: Well, you know, I think the best place to start when you're building anything is, you know, with whatever semblance of a network that you do have. And so, you know, really I--when I was starting FindSpark, I talked to as many folks as I could that I already knew - friends, mostly friends from college, the people that I had met at events, you know? As you could guess, I'm a big event geek and I really--you know, really, really love events and personally go to many of them, and so I'm pretty--I was always putting myself out there, and when I had the idea for FindSpark I would just really talk to as many people as I could about it, and I think that's something that a lot of people get wrong when they're trying to start something is they think, "Well, I don't want to talk about it yet," or "It's not perfect yet," or "I don't want somebody to steal my idea," and things of that nature, and I think it's good to talk to as many people as possible because you never know how they might be able to help you. And so I really started by doing small events, inviting people that I knew or just inviting people that I found through my own research online, and, you know, when you have a really awesome mission of, you know, taking something that's usually really crappy, which is networking, and, you know, saying that, like, "Hey, this is actually gonna be enjoyable. It's gonna be a really great group, and you're gonna connect with folks who maybe are outside of your normal network." It's a pretty carrot to put in front of people, and by always--by always creating a very welcoming and inclusive environment from day one, we've just built an extremely diverse crowd and, you know, in the broadest sense. You know, not just gender and ethnicity, and so that really got the attention of employers, in addition to employers seeing that, like, "Wow, they're creating these really fun ways to connect with these candidates," and when I started it was I would say definitely more of a--it was harder to get jobs when I started FindSpark, you know? It was, like, right around--you know, off of, like, the 2008 tough times when it was hard for really anyone to get a job, but now it's really switched I think to be more of a candidate's marketplace, and so, you know, employers need to be competitive in terms of, you know, showing candidates why they're at the best place to work and have the best opportunities and opportunities for growth. And so that's--you know, that's what they really come to us for is to show that they're, you know, investing in, you know, new and different ways to connect with talent and not just going to, you know, the same top ten colleges and posting on their job board and, you know, getting referrals from people that, you know, they're going above and beyond to create experiences and opportunities for talent to connect with them.Zach: Was there ever a moment while building FindSpark that you said, "Wow, this is pretty special?"Emily: You know--well, I would say going back to, you know, all of these great partners that we've been able to work with, these great employers, I mean, I think every time we get to do something incredible--and, you know, whether or not it's a huge employer like, you know, Grey Advertising or NBC Universal, I mean, even the smaller companies where, you know, you probably haven't heard of them because they're not a consumer-facing name, but we know that they have incredible opportunities. And, you know, those moments where we are building something that's going to connect folks to, you know, a career or a life-changing, you know, opportunity or connection. I mean, those are always the best moments, and luckily they happen fairly often. So those are--yeah, I would say those moments where we're, you know, building these partnerships, getting them off the ground, and then also just, you know, the positive aftermath of them when, you know, you get the follow-ups of folks who have made positive connections and who you've had an impact on. I have a very wonderful starred inbox full of folks who, you know, have shared their successes, and that's always really, really exciting and rewarding.Zach: I bet. So, you know, you made mention earlier about making connections, right? You said it's a candidate's market and how, you know, employers are seeking to really--to get and acquire true talent. So I'm curious, what advice would you give organizations who are seeking to be more inclusive and diverse by hiring ethnically diverse millennial talent? And what have you seen work?Emily: Well, you know, I think one important thing is to realize the difference between diversity and inclusion, right? They're often paired together, and we even talk about--you know, at FindSpark we talk about how we support diversity and inclusion, but they are two different things, and so, you know, for us, our ideal clients and for the employers we're working with, we really want to make sure that they have the inclusion side down before they start partnering with us in an external way that's more focused on diversity. And we also do DNI consulting, and we'll work internally as, like, an adviser as well if they're at that, you know, internal stage because there's no point in attracting diverse talent or talent that might not be representative of, like, how your company make-up is as a whole if you're gonna get them in the door and then not be providing the support they need to thrive and to grow, because then they're just gonna leave. So, you know, doing those internal sort of audits first of what is the, you know, climate of inclusivity. Are your hiring practices or your interview practices and your onboarding practices as inclusive as they can be? You know, and really getting all of that back-end structure set up first before going on the external side. And if you have all of that, you know, internal stuff, you know, set up and you have that going, then in terms of the external side I would say, you know, of course it's inserting yourself into communities and places where there is--where there is diverse talent or talent that's not coming from the most obvious places. You know, FindSpark is a great partner because we have so many different schools represented in our community, and we focus on what we call early-career talent, so that's folks with about zero to five years of experience. So you're either (in repping?) current attendants of different schools or, you know, have graduated from them, but, you know, it can be easy to focus on just a few schools with, you know, a few top programs and that sort of thing, but, you know, you have to think beyond the obvious. And I would say the other thing is to give opportunities to folks on your team, to a diverse range of folks on your team, when it comes to thought leadership, when it comes to creating content, when it comes to having a say in what sort of partnerships or recruiting practices that you are doing because that's really important too for people to see externally that folks who are in your company already from diverse backgrounds are elevated and have the opportunity to, you know, make significant contributions and that sort of thing.Zach: No, absolutely. It's funny that you--it's interesting that you bring that up because, you know, to your point, it's not just about having black and brown folks in the audience. It's like, "Okay, well, who actually has the decision-making authority and power," right?Emily: Right, mm-hmm.Zach: So if you see a bunch of--I mean, not to be--like, not to be too crass, right, but, like, if you look at in the 1800s, like, plantations were very diverse, but they weren't inclusive, right? Like, you had black folks everywhere, but there was only so many--there was a certain group of people who were only in power, right? So it's like, how do you figure out and how do you include and make sure that people who are--who are not necessarily the majority still feel involved and empowered with the decision-making of what's really happening around? So to your point around the thought leadership and actually being able to say, "Look, I was able to contribute to something. I was actually able to point to something and say I actually had a hand in driving that." That's so important. So as you know, Living Corporate focuses on the experiences of under-represented people and groups in the workplace. In my experience, so much of networking is built off of who you know. Like, if you're a first-generation immigrant or if you're a black or Latinx person or et cetera, your social circles are drastically smaller than your white counterparts. What advice have you or influencers within FindSpark's network given to people of color as they seek to grow their network and navigate their careers?Emily: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I also--in addition to FindSpark, I'm also an adjunct professor at a couple of colleges, and I teach career and social media courses. And they're different courses, different types of students. One is senior computer animation students at SVA. Another is a mix of different types of students at FIT, different grade levels, but an assignment that I give to both of them is to reach out and--reach out using only social media and the internet to get an informational interview with someone who you admire, and it's so simple, and as, you know, older folks, you and I--not too old, of course--but, you know, we understand that concept and that it's important and that you can do that, but younger people, especially younger people who might be coming from families who don't understand what they want to do or have, you know, no connections in the world where they want to go, it's not obvious that "Oh, I can just find someone whose work I admire and say hi and, like, ask them for their time?" Like, "What? I didn't even--what?" Like, "Really? Are you sure?" You know, especially younger--you know, at FIT a lot of my students are on the younger side. They may be, like, freshmen or sophomores, and, you know, they don't learn that kind of thing in high school. Like, they're not teaching the importance of networking. They're learning, like, how to take an SAT test and that kind of thing, and so they don't realize, like, how important it is to learn from other people and how open people are. And they're used to using social media for joking around with their friends and, like, being doofuses, and, you know--which I think is another misnomer that older people have, like "Oh, young people, they know all about how to use social media to do anything that they want," and yes, it's true that younger people are more--they are more digital natives in a sense. They know how to use the tools, like, logistically. Like, they would, like, more intuitively understand how to use different apps and Snapchat and all that kind of stuff, but that doesn't mean that they understand how they can use it professionally. And, you know, they have this whole other layer of--you know, a complete additional layer or many different layers of etiquette that they have to deal with. Like, "How do I present myself on all these different platforms to my professors, to my peers, to potential employers or mentors?" Et cetera, et cetera, and so just really empowering them that yes, you can use the internet, which is so amazing that you can reach out to so many different types of people so easily to connect with folks and really take ownership of building a network and getting them into the mindset that, you know, most people will not respond to them as well.Zach: Right.Emily: Because I--which, you know, I'm not just like, "Yes, the internet is magic, and you can get all of the people you want in your network so easily, and it's no big deal." Like, no. You know, I teach them it's possible, but it takes a lot of effort and it takes time, and of course you want to be creating great work on your own and show them that you're someone worth investing their time in because of, you know, your work ethic and things that you've created and done and that sort of thing, but that, you know, yes, a lot of people--most people will not respond to you or not get back to you, and that's okay, but the important thing is you try and you try in an authentic way, you know? By reaching out to people who you truly admire, you're gonna send better notes, you're gonna have better meetings because, you know, you truly admire them versus, like, "I'm gonna send the same message to 20 different people at Viacom 'cause I just want to take any job at Viacom," right? Like, that's not gonna work. So again, especially if you're not coming into a career with a built-in family network or a strong network from college, because maybe your campus is not one that companies come to and that sort of thing. Just knowing that there are so many people out there who want to help you and guide you and support you, and so it's just a matter of finding those people, you know? Looking across different platforms, and focus on people who have already shown an interest in helping others. You know, so those would be like people with podcasts or people who have blogs or people who are actively posting on social media or people who put their emails in their social media bios.Zach: Right. They do that for a reason.Emily: Yeah, and still people will be hesitant to reach out, you know? So focus on those types of people, people who do speaking engagements, who have written books. You know, there's different levels of that sort of thing, but those people are just more likely to be responsive as well. And so if you are someone who is from an underrepresented background as well, I would say, you know, it's important--well, really for anyone to just make yourself accessible to folks as well as being able to pay it forward.Zach: So again, I'm not trying to be a fan or too starstruck, but I see those names you've been able to connect with. How much of that has to do with you stepping out of your comfort zone and just putting yourself out there?Emily: Yeah. Well, I think it's huge, and I think what makes it easier is really knowing and having--knowing that you have something of value to offer, and also just really understanding why it will be valuable to, you know, the company or the person because, you know, at the end of the day everybody's got their own problems, and they want to look good, and they want to help their company grow. So, you know, when you're approaching anyone, whether it's for a partnership or you're just a person, like, looking for a job, you know, it's really understanding what their needs are and how you can help with that need and help solve that problem and, you know, ultimately make the person who vouched for you--again, whether that's the talent acquisition person or the person who's, you know, bringing on your company as a partner--you know, making them look good. Like, making them be like, "Wow, I'm so happy that I made this happen, that I brought this person on," or, you know, brought this partnership to life.Zach: Okay, so I don't want the interview to get too far away from us before I ask about what FindSpark has planned in 2019 and you letting us know where we can learn more about your organization and why professionals and employers alike should engage your platform.Emily: Awesome, of course. So, I mean, in terms of our plans, like, we have created so many incredible programs over the last year and are gonna be doing more and more in 2019, so, you know, we're doing a lot of custom partnerships with employers. One of my favorite recent examples is we worked with Grey Advertising to create a free eight-week portfolio school for aspiring creatives who have not already been through some sort of formal advertising program, whether through an official portfolio school or a well-known advertising college or university. So we brought a really, really diverse group of students who all had to apply to attend--apply to be a part of it. It was very competitive, and they had access to this incredible education from top creatives at Grey. They got to present final projects, their final campaign projects, to the chief worldwide creative officer at Grey. I mean, like, this was an incredibly, like, career and life-changing opportunity for those selected. So doing more and more programs like that where we are able to create these really meaningful connections and educational opportunities as well, and also we're doing more to support the inclusion side of employers and their initiatives as well. So our NBC Universal partnership we just did, not only did we bring in--create an event where we brought in 40 curated FindSpark members and candidates essentially, but the event also--they invited 40 folks from their young professionals network at NBC to come to this event as well and hear from this panel of incredible ad sales professionals at NBC Universal. So, you know, not only was it a great way to build a pipeline of potential candidates to bring into NBC, but for--you know, NBC has tons of employees with tons of potential too, and so curating, you know, a great group of those folks to also learn and network with the folks we brought in was really exciting. So again, doing more programs that also support that internal--like, we talked about, like, inclusion and providing opportunities for underrepresented talent inside and outside of the organization to excel and grow is, you know, what we're doing more and more of. And so in terms of where folks can learn more, definitely follow us on Instagram, and I know that's how we connected, so gotta give some shout out to the gram.Zach: That's right, shout out to the gram.Emily: We're at FindSpark on Instagram and every platform, [inaudible] make your Instagram feed a little bit more productive. But so fun, and then if you go to FindSpark.com/newsletter, if you're a young professional, an early-career professional, you can sign up to hear all about our opportunities, and FindSpark.com/employers is where you can learn more about partnering with us to connect with our [inaudible].Zach: That's awesome. Now, look, before we go, do you have any shout outs or final words?Emily: I would say always be connecting with people who you find interesting, and do it in a genuine way. And don't just connect with them, but always make sure that you're also creating time to maintain those relationships by practicing what I like to call unforced follow-up, which is, you know, when you see something, whether it's an Instagram post or an email or an article and you think--and you think of someone in your network, most people do that and they just think about them but then they move on with their day. If you take a couple of minutes when that happens to actually take the time to send it to that person or tag them in the post, send them an email with no intention other than just saying, "Hey, I thought of you," "This is the thing that made me think of you," that sort of thing will really help you maintain your network as well, which is super, super important.Zach: Always be connecting. I like that. We might have found the subtitle for this podcast, 'cause see, I think the episode--and tell me how you feel about the title of this podcast. This episode is gonna be Finding That Spark with Emily Miethner. Emily: I love it. Perfect.Zach: Okay. All right. Well, look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Emily Miethner, CEO of FindSpark. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We speak with Corporate Alley Cat founder and CEO Deborah T. Owens about the importance of strategic networking and self-advocacy within the workplace.Find out more about Corporate Alley Cat: https://corporatealleycat.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: President and CEO Shari Runner of the Chicago Urban League once said, "Speaking truth to power means believing deeply in what you say and fighting every day to have that heard. It may not be popular. It means taking a risk. It means standing for something." The context of the term "speaking truth to power" originates from the Quakers of the 1850s, who spoke out against institutional oppression to people who hold power, specifically, in their case, of American slavery to the government. Today, speaking truth to power means the same, and there are several institutions to which we could speak power. However, I believe there's also value in speaking truth to yourself, because sometimes we can be our biggest barriers to walking in the power we don't even know we have. I'd go as far to say that the day we speak up in affirmation of our own talents, our own voice and our own desires, is the day we step into levels of freedom that were previously unknown. The question is, "What does it mean to be an advocate for one's self? And what, if any role, does networking factor into it?" My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about being strategic in how we speak up for ourselves.Ade: Super excited to discuss this topic. I believe us people of color, especially for women of color, it's easy to default to not speaking up for much at all, be it wanting more responsibility on the job, dealing with a difficult colleague or challenging your boss, all in the name of not messing up the bag, being seen as problematic or as some sort of rabble-rouser.Zach: And let's be real, we've had these concerns for a real reason. I mean, it kind of reminds us of our episode about salary negotiation in the sense that, in my experience, I'm often told by folks who look like me to "just keep my head down and stack my checks." Like, that advice has really held up as wisdom. I really don't believe that's a sustainable way of managing your career though, for practical development reasons or for your own mental wellness.Ade: Definitely agree. I mean, I've seen more than a few folks who are in places in their career that don't necessarily align where I think their skill set is, and every now and then I'll ask them how they got where they are.Zach: And what do they say?Ade: They nearly always include some story about them asking for more opportunities for leadership or requesting a new project or manager or career counselor. Closed mouths don't get fed.Zach: And it's funny, 'cause when I talk to folks who look like us, those same reasons--not having the right opportunity, being on the wrong project, having the wrong manager, a lack of support--all is reasons why they quit or, even worse, didn't progress.Ade: You know what? The thing is it's 2018, bruh. Don't get me wrong. I don't think today is a wholly different time than any time before us. If anything, we have more resources to tell us how to be, just maybe not the culture that teaches us that we have the right to do so.Zach: No, I agree, and all of us are not all slouches in Corporate America, but, you know, that same energy that we have on social media of speaking up, calling out the shenanigans, canceling folks as need be, why can't we take some of that same energy and apply it in the workplace?Ade: To be honest, it comes right down to exposure and practice. People of color haven't had to be in Corporate America at this number before. Like, you said it yourself, you're one of the first in your family to be in Corporate America, and it's 2018. I believe as more of us inhabit these spaces, in time the culture around us will change, but that could still be decades. We need help right now.Zach: Yeah. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone who was a corporate executive and has experience speaking truth to power in the name of their own career. Someone who's maybe launched a company that really is the spiritual godmother of Living Corporate and that they provide advice and resources for professionals of all colors to best manage and advocate for their careers.Ade: Hm. You mean like our guest Deborah T. Owens?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, listen, you don't even have to ask anymore. We're like--Ade, we're, like, almost done with the first season, so Sound Man, go ahead and give 'em to me.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's what I'm talking about.Ade: Thank God I was not hoarse that time.Zach: No, that went very well. No, it was a very moi--I don't want to say moist, but it was--[laughs]Ade: [laughs] I hate that word. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Deborah T. Owens. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed, we have Deborah Owens. Deborah, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you?Deborah: I'm great, Zach, and thanks for having me on.Zach: No problem. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Deborah: My name is Deborah Owens. I am the founder and CEO of The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy, and we are an organization that focuses on helping professionals of color advance their careers. And we do this by helping them navigate the corporate environment with the goal of shortening the learning curve and accelerating success in the workplace.Zach: So let's talk a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat. Real quick, where did the name come from? I love the tagline, by the way. "'Cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy." I like that.Deborah: You know what's so funny? People always ask me about how I came up with the name, and what's interesting is my inspiration for the name actually came from Congressman Maxine Waters. Many, many years ago, probably over 20 years ago, I saw a 60 Minutes interview she did, and I think it was Mike Wallace asked her about being an African-American woman in Congress and working with all of these men, and she said something to the effect that "That's not a problem for me 'cause I have a little alley cat in me," and I was like, "I've got some alley cat in me too." So it just came to me, Corporate Alley Cat, because you really do have to be scrappy. It is not a place for the faint of heart. You have to use your voice, you have to ask for what you want, and you can't be scared to tussle sometimes.Zach: So when you say tussle--what do you mean by tussle?Deborah: So what I mean by tussle is sometimes you have got to use your voice to say, "Hey, this is not right," "Hey, I need some clarity around this." You can't always be scared to escalate. We have to get rid of this fear of rocking the boat, because sometimes when people say "rocking the boat" it just means that they don't want to get out of their comfort zone, right? So say getting scrappy, you have to be willing to hold yourself accountable, but also to hold others accountable. You have to know your value, and more importantly, Zach, you have got to honor who you are in the workplace, otherwise you will become bitter and resentful, and you will turn into a victim, and so I always encourage people, you know, as a Corporate Alley Cat, to lead from a position of strength and knowing who you are and not from one of fear and uncertainty.Zach: You've launched Corporate Alley Cat, and it's been growing, and it's been moving forward. What has happened since you've launched Corporate Alley Cat that's affirmed for you that this is the right path and a viable space and the right thing to be doing?Deborah: Oh, yeah. So one, we are very engaged with our audience. I talk to my audience in some form or fashion almost every day, so I get lots of notes, letters. I talk to a lot of people who have shared with me their stories and their challenges and also their opportunities in Corporate America, and they often share with me how they've used the information we've shared to make a change or to help them better have a conversation or to help them get a promotion. Since we've launched, we've started a membership community where people can come and have direct access to all of our webinars, many courses, an Ask Me Anything form, and just a lot of resources to help them navigate on a daily basis in their corporate environment. I did a video on LinkedIn that told the story of how I started The Corporate Alley Cat, and can I tell you--I think it was in less than two weeks we got over 30,000 views. I can't tell how you how many people said, "This is my story too, but I didn't know what to do." So every day I get notes from people sharing their experiences, encouraging me--you know, on LinkedIn I get a lot of notes who just say, "Hey, I follow you. I watch all of your information. Keep doing what you're doing. It's needed." We are now working with corporate organizations who have also tapped into the power of The Corporate Alley Cat, and so we are sharing our resources with them. So we've grown from, you know, two years ago to not having much of an audience to having an audience of over 14,000 in less than two years. We have a very robust community online. Our email community is very large. So people have really responded to this, and I can tell you that all of our presenters who are corporate leaders, they've all said, "Absolutely I want to be a part of this." So I've never had anybody--let me knock on wood--to say no. They all support the vision, and they want to give back, and so it's been a really positive experience for us. It's more than a business for me, Zach. It really is my passion, and it's a culmination of stuff that I've been doing throughout my entire career.Zach: Absolutely. And it's so interesting that you say that. You know, I was talking to someone else who started a platform around black and brown experiences, but from--not just from a corporate perspective, but just in representation across a variety of lifestyle platforms and areas. And it's curious, you know? Any time you're doing any type of work that's really focused on uplifting and affirming black and brown identities or black identities or brown identities exclusively or just underrepresented identities, it has to be the type of work that you truly care about because it's not easy work, and it's hard work, right? So it can't just be a job for you or a side gig for you. It has to really be a part of, you know, your heart strings. It has to really be caught up in who you are, and I definitely see that within The Corporate Alley Cat, and it's really--again, just really encouraging for us. As you know, today we're talking about strategic networking and self-advocacy. Can you talk to us about how these elements in career management come together and why they matter?Deborah: I would say what I've learned over the last two years is that most of the professionals of color who are part of our community--and these are people with advanced degrees and lots of experience--the biggest issue that they have is they don't have strategic relationships in the workplace. The notion that you can just come to work and work hard and move through the organization is a myth. It doesn't operate like that. Often times we come into work, we're [smart about?] the technical side, but we don't have the relationship side. And often times we view the networking and the going to drinks with people after work and the informal conversations as an extra part of their job. I've heard people say, "I don't have the time to do all of that," you know? "I'm working." Well, what I want to share with people is it's not extra. That is a part of your job, to build those relationships, to build your network, because the bigger network your is and the more strategic it is, the better access you have to get things done in the organization. I'll give you an example. Somebody called me recently, and they were very upset about a review they got. And I said, "All right. Well, tell me a little bit about your performance." "The performance was great, but a lot of people didn't know what they were doing." I said, "Well, who do you know in the organization?" They said, "Well, what do you mean?" "Who do you have relationships with? What leaders do you have relationships with? Who can you go to that will advocate for you?" And they'd been in the organization seven years, and they were like, "Well, I don't--I don't really know anybody." I said, "Well, that's part of the problem. No one knows you, and when people don't know you, they're not gonna speak on your behalf. If people don't know you, when they are positioning people for future and current roles your name isn't gonna come up, and if your name does come up there's nobody to vouch for you." So building strategic relationships is really more than networking. It's a very intentional process where you want to identify people where you both can bring value to the relationship. And the other thing is it's a long-term relationship. It's not one of those relationships that you build overnight, right? And the other part that I find with professionals of color is that for those who do have the relationships, they're scared to leverage them. And what do I mean by that? They're scared to go to somebody and say, "Listen," you know, "I'm interested in this director role. Will you support me?" "I'm interested in this. Will you help facilitate some conversations?" "I'm interested in doing XYZ. I'd love to get together with you and figure out how we can create some opportunities here," or "Hey, I'd like to get on this project. I know you're leading it up. I want to be a part of this. Let's talk about how we can make that happen." Often times even if we do have the relationships, we don't leverage them.Zach: And why do you think that is though?Deborah: I think a lot of it, to be perfectly honest, comes down to confidence. I think that's the number one thing, and I understand that. I think a lot of it is fear. "What if I'm rejected?" I think a lot of it is people aren't certain about what they can ask for and what they can't ask for. They don't know what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And often times--listen, we haven't had models in terms of how to navigate the corporate arena. Now, both of my parents are professionals, but my dad is an attorney. My mom was an elementary school principal. They were both, like, the kings and queens of their domain, right? So this whole idea about how you navigate and how you get mentors, and more importantly advocates, it's new, and often times you don't know what you don't know, and that's really at the heart of why we created The Corporate Alley Cat. So we spend a lot of time talking about how to build those strategic relationships, but more importantly giving people the information about the how-to's, how to build, how to maintain, how to nurture, and more importantly how to leverage those relationships for career advancement and career success.Zach: You talked earlier about the fact that you said--you said sometimes you gotta get a little scrappy. Can you talk to us about how getting a little scrappy and having those strategic relationships come into play?Deborah: Sure. The best example I can give you, Zach, would be to tell you my story. Many years ago, I found myself in a situation where there was discrimination. I was a high performer, never had a bad evaluation, had had a very successful career, particularly if you look at trajectory, and I found myself in a situation where none of that seemed to matter. This was a really difficult situation for me. It was really--I like to use the word horrific 'cause that's what it was. I've shared openly that I lost 20 pounds, my hair was falling out, and it took me about three months to recognize that it was discrimination because I didn't want it to be discrimination. And I didn't know what to do, and if it was discrimination, what the heck do you do? I don't know. You need me to build a business plan? Got it. You need me to exceed this or navigate that, analyze this? Got it, but how do you handle workplace discrimination? I haven't a clue. So once I realized that that was the situation, I began documenting and sharing the information with the person who was doing the discrimination, and when I wasn't getting the kind of results I needed, I put together a letter. It was a very clear, concise, and firm letter, and I sent it to the president of the company. I didn't get bogged down in HR. I went right to the person that I knew could make a decision on this, and I basically said in my opening line, you know, "I'm being treated differently, I'm in a hostile work environment, and my boss is engaging in constructive discharge." So I didn't--you know, I didn't put any flowery language in it, and then I closed it with "I am requesting immediate resolution."Zach: Can I pause you right there? And let me ask you something for our listeners, but could you please explain what constructive discharge is?Deborah: Constructive discharge is when you feel like your boss is trying to get you to quit. Is that accurate? 'Cause you're HR.Zach: It is. Yes, it is when your employer creates an environment, through often times passive-aggressive means, to make it so uncomfortable for you that you really have no choice but to resign.Deborah: Right, and so I felt very much that he was trying to do that. And I wasn't gonna allow that to happen, and the reason why is because I hadn't done anything wrong. He'd never given me any constructive feedback, and I was not going to be a part of this. I was not going to acquiesce. I was not gonna go away quietly. If I'm gonna be uncomfortable, then you're gonna be uncomfortable, meaning the organization, because I was [attacking this?] head on. And listen, I had my moments where I was very--I had a couple months there where I became kind of a shell of who I was, and then I had this moment where I was like, "What the heck are you doing? This is not who you are," and then I got my bearings again, but I knew that I was not going to leave the organization unless they forced me to, and if they didn't have anything then I would escalate that as well, but what happened was I sent the letter in. A week later, the president of the company called me, and I kid you not, in 20 minutes the situation was resolved. So what does that mean? That means that he called. He apologized. He said they should've intervened sooner. He said, you know, "I pulled together the leadership team, and we had a--we discussed this," which, as you know, is your worst nightmare come true, that the leadership team has gathered to discuss you, and that [inaudible] me. And he said, "Unanimously we want you to be with this organization. We want to support you," and so what happened is I took on another role, a more senior role, and I continued to grow with the organization and take on leadership positions. And more importantly--and this is the second phase of the "get scrappy"--when I got into my new position, I became determined that I didn't want anybody else to go through this alone, so I became this very vocal, diverse in inclusion person in my organization, and I think I was very instrumental in making some significant changes. So again, I didn't come out of this situation and sit in the corner and just be quiet and be happy. It let me keep my job. I came in there saying, "We've got to change some things, and I'm gonna be part of that," and so we did. And so that's what I mean by being scrappy, you know? You've gotta be scrappy to advocate for yourself, but you also have to be scrappy and advocate for others, those people who are coming behind you. One of the reasons that I was really clear about making sure I did a lot of documentation is because I said, "If this happens to somebody else, I want to make sure that this organization cannot say they didn't know." So again, having that foresight and thinking about other people who are coming behind you, and getting scrappy is getting out of your comfort zone. Do you think it was easy for me to write the letter? You know, my finger was shaking when I sent that--you know, hit the Send button, right? Because you never know what's gonna happen, right? But that's getting scrappy, getting out of your comfort zone and saying, "I will not stand for this. This is not right. I'm not gonna be a part of this. I'm going to address it. I'm going to honor who I am and what I am," and you take those actions, and I think often times a characteristic that's undervalued is you have to have courage. You have to have courage. If you are a person of color in the workplace, at some point you're gonna have to really get out of your comfort zone and be courageous, and do it even though it feels uncomfortable. Do it, and you'll be surprised by the results you get. And for me it was a game changer because not only was I able to make even more significant contributions to my organization and understand the work I did on diversity and inclusion was not my part--was not my job. I wasn't a diversity and inclusion person. It was kind of my side gig at the job, right? So if it's something you're passionate about, use your voice. And what I say to people all the time, Zach, is you can advocate where you are. You don't have to be in a senior leadership position to advocate, to make changes in the organization. You just need a voice and passion.Zach: Would you mind talking a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat and classes you all have around to encourage and build the confidence around networking and self-advocacy and things of this nature? And I ask that explicitly and ask you to plug that beyond the fact that it's a wonderful platform and you're here and we want you to talk about it, but also because, you know, when you talk about being courageous and you talk about, you know, us not having the history and background to really know these things, I just--that resonates so true with me, and I can tell you, Deborah, as someone who is a millennial and who is still, you know, a younger professional, that it's so--it's so common, even within our space, even as social media and--I would say that, you know, we're becoming a little bit more conscious about things in the world around us, even within the corporate space. There's still an overwhelming narrative of, "Look, just put your head down. Stack your coins. Don't say anything." So, you know, what resources would you point our listeners to when it comes to really building up these competencies and learning more about this?Deborah: Sure. And Zach, before I answer that question, can I go back to my story? Because there's two key points I want to make about my story. So I was able to resolve that situation, not on my own. So one of the things that I had to do was I had to reach out to people, and I had to say, "Listen, here's what's going on. I'm not sure how to handle this. I don't know if they're trying to fire me. I really don't know. I have no documentation. Nobody's talking to me. I don't even really know what's going on here." So the first thing I want to say is you've got to reach out to your community, and this is where your strategic networks come into play. When I tell you there were many people working behind the scenes in my situation to support me, I had at least two very, very strong advocates in leadership, and I had many more advocates in other positions, and more than the letter, that's probably what helped resolve my situation. Because people knew me. This narrative didn't fit. They supported me. They knew my performance record. So I want to encourage people to ask for help, and ask for help, as I always say, early and often. In the age of social media that you just mentioned, Zach, Instagram, Twitter, we're all putting on this facade at times that we want people to think we have it all together, right? And some of us are barely hanging on on the inside. Get rid of that shame. There is no shame in asking for help. The real tragedy is when people don't ask for help and they allow their careers to be derailed unnecessarily. So build your community, and I like to use the word community versus network because I believe as people of color, we are born into a community. This community wants to support your entire being. It's beyond what a lot of people think is networking and that transactional type of process, right? These are people who care for you, support you. These are people who are alums from your high school, your college, your church family, your close family, your friends, your friends' friends. I honestly believe that everybody has everybody they need already in their network if they would just reach out to them, but most people don't reach out. So that's the first thing I want to say, ask for help. And then secondly I want to say nobody does it by themselves. If you are spending time struggling to figure out something by yourself, you're wasting precious, valuable time and energy. Ask for help. There's always somebody who knows more than you and who can make it easier for you to navigate those situations. So build those strategic relationships, reach out to them when you need them, and ask for help. And don't be scared to rock the boat, because I say rocking the boat is a good thing. Because think about it, Zach. If you're in a boat, and you rock it, that's how you get momentum, right? If you don't--if you don't rock the boat, what happens?Zach: You're not going anywhere.Deborah: You're not going anywhere. So when people say to me, "Well, I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to ruin my career," often times one of the things I ask people--I'm like, "Well, it doesn't look like you have a career here."Zach: Come on, now. That's what I'm talking about. See? Come on now, Deborah. Yes. [laughs]Deborah: Like, what are you trying to--you know, they've already said this to you. They've already done this. You've already got a bad review. You don't have a career here. What little bit you have is about to go away, right? So that's really--I want people to get away from using that as an excuse to get out of their comfort zone. All right, enough. Enough. I'm getting off my soapbox, Zach.Zach: [laughing] No, this is good. Yeah, so where can people learn more about--where can people learn more about The Corporate Alley Cat? And where can people engage more with this content? This was a wonderful--been a wonderful dialogue. I want to make sure that people know where they can go.Deborah: So you can go CorporateAlleyCat.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn under Corporate Alley Cat. You can join our Professionals of Color Facebook group. We share a lot of good information there. It's on Facebook. Professionals of Color. We're on Instagram, CorporateAlleyCat, and on Twitter, CorpAlleyCat. In addition, on our website we have blogs, so you can get a lot of free information there. At least once a month, we have a free webinar with corporate leaders. So all people need to do is go to our website and sign up for that. We have courses. So we have two summits that are available for purchase. One is called the negotiation summit, and one is called the performance review summit. They both walk you through those processes. We also have career coaches that are available to help you, and I want to say this is really significant because the corporate coaches that we have available to you are people who have been very successful in their career, and they have led HR or employer relationships departments, and so they can give you the real strategy, right? So we approach it from "Let me tell you how the organization is gonna look at the situation." "Here's what the organization's gonna say, here's what they're gonna do, and then here's what you're gonna do." Often times, people don't have access to that strategy. They're just reacting, and what we do is we help people map out that strategy and how they execute it, which is invaluable. We also have a membership community, and we are opening it up for enrollment in September, and that's where you have access to all of our webinars, and that's over 30. You have access to many courses. You have access to our monthly Ask Me Anything form. You have have access to our resource library. So there's a lot of great information there, and I also do work with organizations, so if you are a corporation out there or you lead a corporation and you want to make sure that you are not just recruiting--'cause I think organizations spend so much time on recruiting they forget about retaining and developing that diverse pipeline. What are the things that your talent needs to know to be able to successfully navigate that corporate arena? And that's a win-win for everybody. So there are a lot of ways that you can reach out to us, and we have--we are planning a conference upcoming, so stay tuned for that. But it's not your traditional conference. It's actually gonna be called The Corporate Alley Cat Experience.Zach: When that is coming up to date, keep us in the loop, Deborah, and we'll make sure to let the folks know about that as well.Deborah: Yeah, and the other thing I want to say about our webinars is we do the webinars so people can expand their network. We bring in people that you normally wouldn't have this type of access to, and all of our folks are open to linking in with you. We have people who share their cell phone numbers, personal emails, right? These are people who truly want to support you, but you've got to ask for the help. You've got to allow yourself to be a little vulnerable sometimes.Zach: Absolutely, and Deborah, this has been a wonderful conversation. You know, we definitely want to have you back. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs for us?Deborah: Absolutely. I always want to give a shout out to the Corporate Alley Cat community 'cause they are bar none the best. The best. They are scrappy. If you've ever gotten on our webinars, they are engaging. I want to shout out to our Corporate Alley Cat leaders and presenters because, listen, our webinars--Zach, have you ever been on one of our webinars?Zach: I've been on one webinar.Deborah: Okay, and I--if you've been on, you know they're not for the faint of heart.Zach: They're not. No, it's real talk.Deborah: We are real talk, and I always open it up by saying we treat you like family. We're gonna be honest with you. You might have your feelings hurt, but we are coming at it from a position of love, and we are vested in your success. So I want to give a shout out to--there are too many people to shout to who support The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause no one does it alone, Zach. No one does it alone, and that's--if I could leave any parting message that's what it would be, is nobody does it alone, you don't have to be alone, and that there is a community out there that wants to support you and help you achieve your career goals, whatever they may be.Zach: Amen. Deborah, thank you so much for joining us today. Again, your words, your passion, your energy around this are more than encouraging and invigorating. They've definitely encouraged me, even in this conversation, and I know that they're gonna be definitely a blessing to everyone who hears it. So thank you again for your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Deborah: All right, Zach. Stay scrappy.Zach: Absolutely. I'ma stay scrappy. [laughs] You too. Peace.Deborah: [laughing] All right, thank you.Ade: And we're back. I loved that interview, and I am excited to join the Corporate Alley Cat community and check out one of those chats.Zach: Yeah, I've checked it out a few times, and I've enjoyed them every time.Ade: So let me ask you this. What did you take away most from y'all's discussion?Zach: Honestly, I took away that your career is what you make of it, right? So to Deborah's language, we gotta stay scrappy. It doesn't mean that it's some combative, negative, or violently confrontational thing. In fact, you know, it reminds me of the conversation we had earlier this season with DeRay. He was talking about his book, but we were also talking about how you push up against these systems, and he was saying, "Look, everything doesn't have to be so negative," right? But it is about being direct and demonstrating courage. So how did you feel about it?Ade: Very similarly, to be honest. At one point I felt quite attacked, to be frank with you. She was talking about people she was coaching and that they'd say, "Well, I'm gonna hurt my career," and she'd reply with, "Well, sis, you don't have a career here," and I felt dragged. I felt persecuted, frankly.Zach: [laughing] She was knocking on your door?Ade: What? She had kicked my door in, slammed some receipts on my--on my table. You know that Iyanla gif? "Not on my watch." That was precisely what she was doing. [laughs]Zach: Not on my watch. [inaudible] She was shaking your table?Ade: And I was sitting right on the table too. Like, the table she was shaking had my whole career on top of it. So yeah, I really appreciated the approach that she was taking 'cause it was very, very relatable.Zach: You know what? Sound Man, go ahead and drop one of those flex bombs for that, because when she said--when she said you don't have a career? Boom.[Sound Man drops the bomb]Ade: Wow. [laughs] Wow, really?Zach: I literally--in my mind I was like, "Wow, this is, like, one of those [makes boom]." Like, goodness gracious.Ade: Yeah, yeah. It also reminded me of that famous quote from Alice Walker. "The common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." And for the record, we're not victim blaming here. We're never about that. What we are saying is that we are in the business of pushing up against systems, spaces, and cultures that were not created with us in mind, and that means that sometimes you have to be willing to advocate for yourself. And yes, it's uncomfortable, and yes, it's absolutely challenging, but like you said, your career is what you make of it.Zach: For sure, and we'll make sure to have info in the podcast for everyone who has access to learn more about Corporate Alley Cat.Ade: Beautiful. Well, yeah. Awesome. Cool beans. Up next, we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Hope you guys enjoy the segment.Zach: So my favorite thing right now is Marc Lamont Hill's book "Nobody: Casualties of America's War on the Vulnerable, from Ferguson, Flint, and Beyond." It's a powerful, gripping read, and it pairs analysis of the stories we see on the news with emotional authenticity. It's been out for some months, but I still really enjoy it.Ade: Awesome. Continuing in that amazing literary tradition that we've set, my favorite thing right now is--actually I have two. One's gonna be fun and one's gonna be more scholarly. My scholarly one is--it's called "Just Mercy" by Bryan Stevenson. It's a book about the American criminal justice system, and anyone who knows me knows that I have a thing for the idea of grace, and it was right in line with, you know, just the conversation about how there is such a dearth of it in the American criminal justice system. So if you're ever interested in picking up a book--it's heavy sometimes, but I recommend that everyone reads it. My second thing--it's a little bit lighter. My favorite thing this week is a purple bag of Doritos. Sweet Spicy Chili. Try it out. You will not be disappointed. I love me some Doritos. [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Well, shout out to the book recommendation, and also shout out to Doritos. This is not a paid ad. Ade just likes to eat.Ade: Okay. Well, sir, don't we all? [laughs]Zach: Right? We've gotta survive. [laughs]Ade: That felt--that felt a little bit like an attack. [laughs] But yes, they're quite delicious.Zach: Well, dope. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with social influencer, entrepreneur, community builder, public speaker, blerd, and AI subject matter expert Tim Salau to discuss his journey into tech.Learn about Tim Salau here:http://www.timsalau.org/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, of course we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that's right, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have, sometimes they're extended monologues, or sometimes they're, like, a one-on-one chat with a special guest. Today we have a very special guest, Tim Salau. Now, this is from Kathryn LeBlanc, who did a profile on Tim. "Tim Salau is an ex-Googler, UX wiz, and LinkedIn video creator extraordinaire. Tim somehow manages to spare enough time to run a Facebook group called Mentors and Mentees. The group provides high-quality advice for young professionals looking to launch or level up their careers. Tim is also a LinkedIn campus editor and recently just began his journey with Microsoft as an artificial intelligence product manager, AND on top of all of that, Tim is Living Corporate's first brand ambassador. Tim, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Tim: [laughs] I'm doing well, man. You boosted me a lot there. I appreciate it.Zach: Okay, look. So today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. Talk to us about your journey into tech.Tim: Man, my journey into tech was very, very interesting. So my background is in psychology. I went to Texas Tech University to get my psychology degree, and then from there I started learning a little bit about digital media as well as, you know, how psychology can apply a lot to technology. Around my junior year I realized I really wanted to get into UX as a vertical, and since UX is really big in the tech arena I decided that I wanted to go make a career out of that because I really enjoyed an internship I had that junior year, the summer before my senior year. So from there I decided I wanted to go to grad school at the University of Texas in Austin and study something called a Master's of Information of Studies, which would allow me to develop kind of a deeper understanding of UX and kind of the psychological principles of how information and people work together. And, I mean, from there I've just been pretty much practicing and learning as much as I can in the field, whether it be on my own accord or at school or, you know, going to any kind of event that will allow me to just soak up as much knowledge as possible. And now I find myself really focused on artificial intelligence, and I think I was able to break in by just talking to the right people, man, and kind of being in the right spaces at the right time.Zach: So, you know, you talked about--just now you talked about how you're leaning into and learning as much as you can. So you and I have joked about this, but you have, like, I don't know 70 bajillion LinkedIn training certifications, right?Tim: [laughs] Yeah, man. I'm working. I'm working. I think learning is--learning is the easy part. Applying it all is the hard part, right? But I think some people find it hard to start learning and find the sources, but I think we're in an information age where it's incredibly accessible.Zach: Right. And let's continue down the path of being self-taught, right? So I think it's easy to assume that being self-taught is easy because you're creating your own rules to follow. Like, there isn't a pace, and the content is there for you to stay engaged how you like. For some though that's more immobilizing than anything else. What advice would you have for folks who are struggling with the idea or just the anxiety of that type of learning?Tim: I think find out what learning methods work for you. Being self-taught, for me I found that it's a--it's not just one learning method I use. I go from watching YouTube, LinkedIn learning videos, to, you know, finding hands-on ways to apply what I've learned, to talking to people who are the experts and just kind of getting their perspective on the field and, you know, seeing what they've gone through. I think for people--usually they think that they have to go straight to being experts. They have to go straight to really, like, being able to--like, for example, let's say create some sort of machine learning model, right? Like, it would scare you because you're like, "What the hell? A machine learning model?" Like, "How do I get started doing it? That seems like such a hard thing to do." So, like, the initial thought is that "Oh, man." Like, "I can't do this," but if you literally go on YouTube and search "how to," right, there's a five-minute video, I guarantee you, that will kind of walk you through it step by step, right? And you may not even master it after you watch that video, so what you do then is--okay, you go ahead and you go apply that knowledge, right? And you may not even master it after that, but what you do after that is you go to talk to someone that's actually done it, right? And let them know, "This has been my experience," and I think it's really a matter of making experience of learning, right? Put yourself in a position to either, you know, go offline and visit one of the events or wherever this knowledge is being shared, and really put yourself in this mindset that learning isn't one-dimensional. It's not monolithic. It's just not me, you know, just watching someone do it, it's me making an experience of it.Zach: So let's talk about Mentors and Mentees, right? So what and how--what is it, and how does it fit into your other work in tech?Tim: So Mentors and Mentees, about a year ago I was--I mean, a lot of people were reaching out to me about career advice and, you know, kind of my career path and everything, and I've always been into mentorship. I've actively mentored many people, probably too many people, because I always have--I have an executive board of mentors myself, so I understand how valuable it is. So I created Mentors and Mentees, a community group for people who are interested in kind of finding different perspectives, to help them kind of nurture their career paths and whatever problems that they may have. So right now the group is on Facebook, and I have plans to kind of create more around it in the future, and it's essentially a resource for anyone that is kind of confused on whether it be their job search, right? You know, whether it be salary negotiations or how to--how to transition from a different position into a new one within the same organization in a totally new industry. So the whole notion of Mentors and Mentees was just to create that space, that community, and it was actually something that was missing not only on Facebook but at large, right? Kind of, like, this very democratized space where you get an international audience and a wide variety of different perspectives to kind of, like, come to the table and share their experiences. So it was just a passion project, but now it's growing into a brand for me, man, and, you know, I have a lot of work that I have to do to continue to grow it. Zach: So continuing on that path talking about just working. So I know, you know, recently you announced, and you've been celebrating--again, congratulations again--around the placement with Microsoft.Tim: Thank you, brother.Zach: Yeah, no, you're welcome. In your IG story, you talked about being--like, just being an African kid and, like coming from the mud so to speak, right? And building this path for yourself. So what advice do you have for minorities who come from all sorts of backgrounds and see tech as, like, this far off, distant, mythical--like, it's too obscure to even grasp. Like, what advice would you have for them?Tim: I think first thing is a change of perspective. Tech permeates everything. I think a lot of people see tech as only a centralized thing, but more so see it as a--technology as a distributed kind of vehicle to a lot of different change, whether it be in the health sector, in the transportation sector, in the education sector, right? So change your perspective. It's not just like--everyone says "I'm trying to get into tech." Really in whatever capacity you're working in or whatever field that interests you, you will be affected by tech in some, you know, way or form, right? So it's a matter of understanding, "Well, if I really want to build my technical aptitude," or "If I really want to get into this field, how do I apply tech to a problem I want to solve? How do I apply tech to where I'm going next? How do I bring in the knowledge that's being shared, whether it be in the space of artificial intelligence, in the space of bot design, in the space of UX, how do I bring that to the work that I do as someone who wants to be a health practitioner or someone that wants to go into journalism, right? So I think changing that perspective is the #1 thing I encourage someone who wants to get into tech, quote-unquote, to do, right? See how they can apply it to a problem they want to solve and they where they want to go next. And once you make kind of that change of mindset, once you set that stance to change your mindset, you'll start to see that, "Okay, wow." Like, [inaudible] tech. It's a component of tools that I could use to really actually do better, not necessarily in my job function and role but also within my community. What really got me into tech is the fact that I was obsessed. I was really obsessed with the fact that one, UX and psychology was a way where we could create digital experiences that people would understand, and it would follow them throughout their day, throughout their life, and it could be shared, and as I grew and developed my passion, I developed a deeper obsession with this whole notion of community, right? How does technology really integrate into our communities? How do we build that digital aptitude, that digital literacy, and how does it extend beyond just, you know, one person being able to do it to multiple people and then an organization and so on forth? And I think me being really obsessed with community but being obsessed with the topics, I found ways where, "Okay, there's a lot of different ways I can use tech to scale what I'm trying to do, the problem that I'm trying to solve." The fact that, you know, I don't think a lot of people have that, you know, digital aptitude to really maybe start their own business or find themselves successful in that first role after their job, right? How do I one break down that education block, right? And how do I use tech to scale my solution. So changing your perspective and then seeing how you can use the tools that you have across the tech landscape, whatever it is that you're interested in to kind of scale your solution, is the best way to go about it. Zach: Man, this has been awesome, man. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs, any other parting words?Tim: Man, I think that you gotta stay hungry. [laughs] You have to stay hungry and really find your obsession, find what you really are interested in and the problems that you want to solve. Zach: Now, where can people who want to learn more about Tim Salau--where can they engage you?Tim: Well, [laughs] I'm not a great [omni-channel?] presence, so you can find me on my Facebook page and profile at TimSalau, on Instagram at TimSalau as well, and especially on LinkedIn, one of my favorite platforms, at TimSalau as well. Feel free to connect with me, send me an [in?] mail, let me know if I can be of help to you in anything, as well as join the Mentors and Mentees community if you're a professional and you have a perspective to share and you have a story to share. The community is for you, and it's a great membership base for you to learn from others as well. So definitely join our Mentors and Mentees community.Zach: So a couple of things. First of all, yes, definitely. We're gonna put some air horns right here for Mentors and Mentees. [Sound Man complies]Zach: But also, Tim has been super gracious as I've been jacking up his last name this entire conversation. He hasn't corrected me one time, so shout out to you for being gracious. So air horns to Tim on that as well.[Sound Man complies again]Zach: So for the audience one more time, can you pronounce your name? The first and last name so we all have it right.Tim: Tim Salau. So it's T-I-M, my first name, and my last name is S-A-L-A-U. Tim Salau.Zach: I've been saying straight up Salu this whole time. You did not correct me one time. The humility is so real. All right.Tim: [laughs] It's okay.Zach: All right, so to be clear, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with Tim Salau. Peace.Tim: Yeah. [laughs]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with TJ and talk about his path to joining the tech industry and what people of color can do to engage it further.Learn more about tech: ROOTsTechnology.infoConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: I'm sure many of our listeners can relate to the concept of familial pressure, and as many immigrant or first-generation young adults may know, the career path for us is often limited to that of a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. I chose the path of a lawyer when I was younger. However, as I've evolved as a person so have my interests, and I'm not alone in this. Many of us have seen leaps in technology that have piqued interest in previously unexplored fields. So with that in mind, it should be of no surprise that it is one of the fastest growing industries in the world with revenue within the industry projected to reach $351 billion. It also makes it an inviting field for groups that have been underrepresented in this industry until now. The question is what does it look like to make the pivot? My name is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. [intro]Ade: So today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. As many of you may know, this would resonate with me. I've shared at least two or three times this season, but for those of you who are new, I'm actively making the career pivot into software engineering, which was not my focus in college. The journey so far has included some extremely long hours, some late nights, a ton of mistakes, a couple of wins--a couple of little wins--and many, many failures. Zach: Yeah. You know, we could've done a better job promoting your journey through Living Corporate's Instagram because your IG stories are great. Like, I'll see you posting pictures of your laptop screen with a bunch of code on it, you being in all these all-day workshops, books you're digging in to help build your technical chops. It's been inspiring to see.Ade: Thanks. Thank you. Part of what I am interested in is making tech more accessible. It's all around us, and engaging in tech means often--more than just being a coder. Being a coder is awesome, but there is so much more to tech than that.Zach: Right. I mean, to your point, because there's technology in everything that we do, there's a myriad of ways to work in tech. As an example, I'm a change management consultant in technology. I don't know how to code a thing, yet, but I'm still actively engaged in the industry because I bring other skills to the table to help implementations and things of that nature to be more successful.Ade: Right, and along that train of thought, there's space for all of us at the table--word to Solange--but it comes down to exposure and engagement. For me, I had two primary barriers. One, I didn't know what tech meant. It seemed like this vague, really nebulous space, and that was scary. I like when words mean things, and I like when I understand what those words mean. And the second big barrier for me was that I did not know how to get there. I had no road map. I had graduated from college, and there was no counselor, adviser who was like, "Take these classes and you'll get there," and "These are the steps." I had to figure it out for myself, but in figuring it out for myself I came to understand that the tech space is made up of people, some really amazing people, and therefore completely accessible. Just like you are a person, they are people, and so this is a space that you can absolutely find your way in. Zach: Right, and as you alluded to in the intro, professionals of color as well-served to seek entry into industries that are growing and positioned to be on or around the top, but it would be great if we could speak to someone more about this topic, right? Someone who--maybe they're, like, a first-generation American who changed their career, made a career pivot after college and got into tech, but not only that, they leveraged their passion and network to teach other ethnic minorities skills to get them into the tech space as well.Ade: Wait, you mean like our guest TJ Oyeniyi?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaat?Zach: Sound Man! [makes air horn noises] Come on, drop 'em in. You know it. Just put 'em right in there. Let's go. Ade: [laughs] All right. So next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, TJ. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. TJ, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for joining us.TJ: Thank you. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: Hey, no problem, man. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?TJ: Yeah. So my name is Tolu Oyeniyi, and most people know me as TJ, which I completely made up while watching Smart Guy one day. I was born in Nigeria, [inaudible], and I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I did my undergrad at UT Austin and grad school at Arizona State, and I am currently in the second year of my career switch as a software engineer. Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. Before you got into technology or the tech space explicitly, what were you doing? And what spurred your interest in the tech space?TJ: Ah, what was I doing? So I was working as a business analyst at a small health tech company in Austin at the time, and I was also a really big volunteer in Austin. Like, when I moved back to Austin from Dallas for work, I told myself, like, "Anything black," like, just anything dealing with underrepresented groups, I wanted to volunteer time to just help and, you know, just try to, like, give back any way possible. And I ended up, like, volunteering for a host of different events 'til I stumbled upon this one event called <div>hackathon at Huston-Tillotson University, which is an HBCU and actually the first higher education institute in Austin during South By, and the purpose of the <div>hackathon was to basically introduce black and brown students to tech, and I volunteered as a mentor to basically help students flesh out their ideas and, you know, ultimately try to build, like, a working product at the end of those two days for the hackathon. And what, like, really triggered the idea of, like, learning to code or just teaching people how to code was when I parked in front of this, like, brand new house across from, like, HT in east Austin, which, you know, used to be, like, an old black neighborhood in Austin. And, you know, this house was a reminder that this area was being gentrified, largely by a lot of people that are--that come into Austin because of tech, and just kind of, like, thinking, "Man," like, "All these black and brown kids," and just, like, families in these areas are being priced out of here because they don't really have access into this industry and don't really know, like, the basics, you know, to even be able to try to, like, you know, have a chance to, like, try in this industry. And that kind of frustrated me a bit, and I thought one day, "You know what? It would be real impactful if somebody was teaching these kids to code," and I just, like, jokingly mentioned to a friend--you know, to my friend at the event, like, "Bruh, you know, I think I'm gonna mess around and learn how to code so I can teach these kids to code."Zach: Wow. [laughs]TJ: The guy I was talking to was a software engineer for IBM. He was like, "Oh, really? Can you code?" I was like, "I do," but I didn't know anything about coding, bruh. I worked as a business analyst. I did, like, design software, but I don't actually build it. But yeah, I had the crazy idea of learning to code so that I could learn to teach black and brown kids to code. And I didn't really learn to, like, make a career switch. I just wanted to basically help other people, like, break into the industry. And I did that for about a year until I basically got this useless promotion at work. [laughs]Zach: Why was it useless? [laughs]TJ: It was useless, man. I was--I was working as a business analyst, making--you know, for a health tech company, making 37,500 in Austin--Zach: Wow. Wow, that's really low.TJ: Ooh. Man, you said wow and it just--it brought back all the pain from those days. [laughs] Oh, God. But yeah, and I had gotten a promotion to senior business analyst, right? You know, big time. I'm thinking big time. Everything got a promotion [inaudible]. My [inaudible] got a promotion, my responsibilities. Everything but my salary.Zach: Oh, no. But that's really what happens though.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Hold on, bruh." [laughs] "Hold on, bruh. Wait, what's going on?" 'Cause my, you know, coworkers got a raise. Why in the world did I not get one? So I started having this, like, back-and-forth with my manager like, "Hey, man. You know, I've been doing all this," you know? "My output is looking really good," et cetera, et cetera. Like, I've been here for over a year, you know? What's up? And I just got promoted. So he eventually went to bat for me with the CEO, and they got me a promotion. Like, I--man, I remember that day well. He came into the office and we had a meeting, and he was so happy to, like, announce to me that I had gotten a raise. I was like, "Okay. What's that money looking like, bruh?" He's like, "Yeah. So TJ, we're gonna take you from $37,500 to $39,998."Zach: Oh, no.TJ: I was like, "Hey, bruh. You guys really couldn't have added a couple dollars more?" [laughs] You know, to at least make it 40K, bruh. Really? I was--I was like, "Okay, wow. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it." I mean, I went back to my desk with this look like, "I'm leaving." I was, like, mid-twenties, just thinking, "Man, I'm not gonna be fighting for 40K." Like, "I'm not trying to build my life and career off of that," 'cause--you know, 'cause the question then was how long 'til I reach, like, 60K?Zach: Right. No, it's a real question. Right.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Bruh." Man...Zach: God forbid six figures, right? Like, come on. Right, yeah.TJ: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, "Jeez, I'ma be, like, 40 to 50 years old before I see any kind of money where, you know, I can just kind of be at peace?" Basically, right? 'Cause I had, like, a lot of loans coming from grad school 'cause I also did grad school out of state. But yeah, so I was very, like, frustrated by that, and by this time I had been learning to code for about a year and, like, you know, teaching it as well, but at that time I basically just knew the basics of building, like, web pages and websites. You know, just simple HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Bootstrap. You know, that type of stuff. But I went home and I was just like, "You know what, man? I'm not gonna be here fighting to try to make 40-something K." Like, my financial goals were way bigger than that, and I was like, "I have to make a change," and all of my software engineer friends are banking, and, you know, so far this stuff seems pretty straightforward. So I basically went to this event or something at IBM I think, and I saw this printout of a job posting for an engineer role at IBM, and it had all these skills and requirements. You know, just basically all this stuff on there, and I basically used that posting to update the curriculum that I was using to teach.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah.TJ: This happened, like--man, I think this happened around June or July 2016, and I basically took that job posting and I put it, like, right next to my desk in my room, and I put a date on there. Like, December 2016 was how long I gave myself. I was like, "By December 2016 latest, I should be working as a software engineer. Period." Zach: Let's go. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.TJ: So yeah, basically that is what kind of spurred me making that career change, and it's just crazy how it all started, how I actually only started learning to code so that I could teach other people so they could break into the industry and make more money when I was over here broke. [laughs] Maybe I should make the switch.Zach: Right. You know, I'll say this. It's funny. I truly believe any time you attach your purpose with people you're going to see rewards on the other side, right? TJ: Oh, yeah.Zach: Right? So your whole angle, your whole mission was "How can I serve someone else?" And then as you were building to serve others, the fates came together to make sure that you were taken care of. So that's really exciting, and I think something else that I hope our listeners are picking up on is that you were tenacious about it, right? So the information was out there, you did your own research, you put yourself out there, you were willing to be uncomfortable, and you drove to get there. Let me ask you something about this program that you started to teach other folks, specifically youth, how to code. What is the program, and why do you believe coding is so important? Why do you do it today? Like, why do you continue to do it today?TJ: Well, so the program was called ROOTs Technology, and I was basically teaching classes on Saturdays at the time in, like, a lower income part of Austin. Yeah, and for me, at the time I thought it was, like, a really good chance to provide an opportunity for kids that were already interested in tech somehow to just learn more of the hard skills to try to, like, pick up the chance to try to break into the industry or to ultimately start, like, their own stuff on the side in terms of, like, building websites for people or just, like, building--or just building their own app ideas [inaudible] actually. So yeah, I mean, that--man, teaching is hard, bruh. Teaching is very hard. I always knew that our teachers were undervalued, underpaid and underappreciated, but that, like, knowledge took a different form when I actually, like, experienced being in the shoes of a teacher for just, like, a couple hours once a week, because there were some students in my class that they didn't know where they were going to eat unless they came to my class because Subway, like, sponsored lunches. You know? So it was like--there were so many, like, hurdles outside of the actual class that basically made it hard for students to retain information and to basically achieve the goal that they set out to achieve. So yeah, that was tough, and I ultimately had to, like, pull back on the program. So now I have the curriculum online, and it is open to any and everybody to use, and I just make myself available as a mentor to help people to get unstuck as they are working through the curriculum, you know? Because everything is online and self-paced, so.Zach: So let's make sure that we'll--we'll make sure to put those resources in the show notes because I think that's amazing. I think--you know, certain people--for me as an example, right, I'm a good Googler. Like, I don't have an issue looking something up and figuring out or, you know, reaching out and talking to people, but that isn't always--that's not everyone's strong suit. Having a place where all of that information is consolidated and available I think is a big deal, and there's plenty of people out there that really see tech as, like, this big, just amorphous thing that you can't really wrap your arms around or that it's only for super, super quantitative math geniuses and things of that nature. So let me ask you this. If you could give people, especially minorities, who don't have a tech background but want to get into the space three tips, what would they be?TJ: One, decide what you want to do, and if you don't already know what you want to do in this industry or you just don't know anything about tech, just start looking for local tech meet-ups in your area and start attending and just--just ask questions. Like, you will always find people that are willing to just, like, answer questions and at least help you and point you in the right direction. And two, like, find people that want--once you figure out what you want to do, find people in this industry that are where you want to be and approach them to basically help you come up with a plan to get there. And then three, you have to really, like, sacrifice and grind. Like, set a timeline and let other people know to basically help to keep you accountable to your goals and get to work, you know? Like, this--this, like, took me over a year and a half of just, like, teaching myself and just grinding, and my last, like, five months, I actually--like, once I decided that I wanted to make the switch into being an engineer, I think I spent about, like, seven months of just, like, really sacrificing and grinding. No more happy hours. No more brunch. Dollar mimosas, and God knows I love, like, dollar mimosas. Like, I--Zach: Dollar mimosas, yeah. [laughs]TJ: You know? I basically I had to give, like, so much up. Like, I was working full-time and coming home, and basically from 6:00 P.M. to, like, 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. I was just studying. Seven days a week. Just grinding and sacrificing. The only people that saw me on a regular basis were my coworkers and my sister 'cause she lives with me, but that was it, you know? I basically went into a hole to, you know, try to put in the work to achieve my goals, and I basically showed up with a brand new software engineering job a few months later.Zach: Well, see--that's just so inspirational, right? Because, again, I think we talk a lot about things we say that we want to do, but the reality is it takes work. It takes sacrifice. Anything that you want to really build that's gonna be sustainable, not a fad or not something passing in any way, it takes time, and it takes actual work. And it's funny because, you know, you didn't pull those hours out of nowhere. You had to give up some comfort so that you could eventually get where you wanted to go. So that's--that's just amazing. I'm really encouraged by this story. This has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, TJ, do you have any shout outs?TJ: Man, I have a lot of shout outs.Zach: Go ahead. Get it going.TJ: [laughs] So yeah, first shout outs will be to Dara Oke and Sammy [inaudible]. They were my engineering friends at the time that basically helped point me in the right direction when I was coming up with this self-paced curriculum to, you know, teach people, and then after that, shout out to Yusuf [inaudible] and the African-American Youth Harvest Foundation, which is where the classes for ROOTs Technology were at, and Yusuf was another engineer at the time that basically started learning to code back then like I did and wanted to make the switch over, and he would actually volunteer with me to help teach the class as well. And yeah, again, he achieved it as well. He has been working as a software engineer for the past two years. And also shout out to [inaudible] for just being, like, a really big support--just a really good friend and mentor in this, like, tech journey. Like, E is an engineer. He's worked at IBM on the Watson project, DO doing, like, [inaudible] stuff, and now he's over at GitHub, and he always does a very good job of just, you know, trying to help lift as he's climbing, and I was, you know, one of those people that he, like, really helped along the way in my own journey. And also a big shout out to my fiance Queen and my sister [inaudible], who gave me a place to live while I was--while I didn't have my own place for a few months. And just a really big shout out to all of my family and friends that were there to support me and to, like, push me on throughout this whole journey.Zach: Man, that's beautiful, man, and again, we thank you for your time. We love your story. We definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope to have you back, man.TJ: Awesome. Awesome, sir. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: All right, man. Peace.Ade: And we're back. I can tell that you and TJ had a lot of fun on that one, and to be frank, I was incredibly energized by his story. It was really motivating to hear because he's out of the old, so to speak. I'm definitely still in "stay low and build" mode, but hearing his story is encouraging, and it's motivating, and it lets me know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Zach: Yeah. I think his story comes down to the power of execution. He made up his mind to do something, and he didn't use any excuse. He researched, he studied, he prepared, and then he went for it, and he didn't take years and years. It's really--frankly, it's been a super short journey for him, and I'm happy for him because I know he's just getting started.Ade: For sure. We'll definitely need to make sure to list all of those resources and contacts in the show notes because, like you said, there are so many of us out here who are interested in a genuine approach to the industry but aren't necessarily sure where to start. We'll have a starting line for you.Zach: Absolutely. Well, with that being said, we're gonna be right back with our Favorite Things. Can't wait to share.Ade: Awesome.Zach: And we're back with our Favorite Things. So folk who know me know that I am a blerd, or a black nerd. Two amazing games dropped this month. One was 2K19. Yes, like many younger black men, I loves my 2K, my NBA 2K. For those who are not in the know, NBA 2K is a basketball simulation game. This isn't even an ad. I really enjoy 2K, especially My Career, where you take a player--you make one, you create one, you take him through the journey of being a rookie to a Hall of Famer. And Spider-Man dropped. Both for PS4, so I'm really--I'm enjoying myself.Ade: 2K, huh? Okay. So what's your style? Are you a shot-creating slasher? A playmaker? What's up?Zach: I'm actually a slashing, shot-creating small forward. I'm 6'10" on there, and so if you want to catch a body, you want to be put on a poster, you find me at the park. My gamertag is RevNunn, R-E-V-N-U-N-N. I'll see you out there.Ade: RevNunn gonna put you on a poster. All right. This week my favorite thing is a book called Weapons of Math Destruction. Yes, I did say math. It's a book that came out in, I believe, 2016, and it just examines the societal impact of algorithms and big data. We tend to think of--kind of following in the conversation we were having about tech spaces, but we tend to think of data and tech and science, the STEM space, as a relatively bias-free zone because it's presented to us that way. However, this book just talks about those spaces can actually--and that work, the creation of algorithms, actually can be used to reinforce pre-existing inequality and systemic inequality. I love it. It's by a mathematician known as Cathy O'Neil, and she talks about, you know, the reinforcement of discrimination using systems that we would otherwise consider or would otherwise hope are unbiased. So it's been a fun read. Okay, maybe not fun. Fun is definitely not the term I'm looking for, but it's been a very illuminating, insightful read, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. Oh, that reminds me. Before we go, we are actually going to be opening up our Favorite Things to you, our listeners. So if you have a favorite thing, please get at us. DM us through IG or hit us up at our email address, which we'll list later on at the end of this show. You can also contact us through the website or Twitter, and we'll make sure to shout you out.Zach: Dope. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. You know what? Also, we actually bought a bunch of other domains. That's right. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's right. We bought livingcorporate.co., livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org. We are everywhere except livingcorporate.com. So if you type in Living Corporate you will find us, okay? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on the show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with community leaders and social impact entrepreneurs Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport to learn about their work to achieve social justice, racial partnership and improve social and emotional intelligence.Learn about Project Curate TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Now listen, for Living Corporate these are the types of folks that we really enjoy talking to - social impact entrepreneurs, educators, folks actively involved in the corporate space in a diversity and inclusion perspective and ethnically diverse leaders within the corporate space, and today we have two special guests, Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport. Secunda and Jessica are activists, writers, public speakers, and social impact entrepreneurs dedicated to racial justice. Working with Project Curate, they seek to build social and intellectual communities that can address civic challenges and work towards intersectional justice. Welcome to the show, y'all. How are you doing?Secunda: We're good. Thank you for having us so much, Zach.Jessica: Glad to be here.Zach: Hey, no problem. Now look, for those of us who don't know y'all, can y'all tell us a little bit about yourself?Secunda: Well, yeah. My name is Secunda Joseph. I am from H-Town by the way of South Louisiana, [inaudible], and yeah, I am--I have been working in spaces that relate to, like, media, digital media, organizing and activism on the half of black life, and that's what I do. I'm a servant and a lover of my people, to sum it up.Jessica: And I'm Jessica. I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, but I've been in Houston for about eight years now and have really fell in love with the city. I am a full-time student, but in addition to that I also do work with an organization called Project Curate but also [inaudible], which does lots of work in the community around critical dialogue and creativity in the arts to push folks towards thinking about ideas of racial justice and building more transformative communities. Zach: That's amazing. So today we're gonna be talking about a particular program that will be coming really soon. So can you talk to us a little bit about the program, the title of it, what inspired it, all of that?Jessica: Sure. Secunda and I both work with an organization called Project Curate that has been hosting conversations here in the city around race, religion, and social justice. This semester we're gonna be starting a curriculum that we're offering to the community. We're asking folks to come out and join us over the course of several months--we'll meet once a month on Saturdays--to work through a book called Emergent Strategy. This book has really--a lot of us have read it, those folks who are really interested in building community and doing justice work, but this book is a little different than the usual kind of social justice how-to or the activist how-to. It's not a manual for how to do that. It actually asks folks to sort of stop and pause and ask themselves how they can shift their own practices, their own personal interactions, their own behaviors, do small-scale things in order to have big impacts, in order to shift the world. So that's what we're gonna be working through. The course is called Frequencies because what we're trying to do is to get people to think about how to create a kind of synergy, a relationship between other people, to think about their engagements with other people, to think about their relationships with themselves, and to think how those small-scale things, those small-scale relationships, can get us to think about how to build more transformative communities with one another. So we're asking folks to come out and join us once a month, and we can say a little bit more as we go throughout the show and share a little bit about how people can find more information, but that's kind of the gist of it, of what we're up to.Zach: That's really cool. Now who do you believe that this class is catered for? Who do you believe this class will help?Secunda: This class would help, you know, show [inaudible] towards folks who are in the corporate world, and, you know, when I think about the black and brown folks that walk into this space and how they--you know, sometimes you have to--you know, you come (on?) with a new face, put the things that you may be--the solutions, the systems, the understandings that you have, that you were taught sort of at home aside as you walk into this space, but I think this opportunity helps you to, like, think about ways that you can bring in creative solutions and build a new way to do things much better. I think that's [inaudible] for yourself and any organization. It's also for folks who are activists or organizers who are frankly wore out, you know? And they're tired of like, "Let me get 200 people in here, and maybe 50 of them will stand up, and we need 1,000 people at this rally," who are thinking very linear to get things accomplished, and a lot of times that really snatches the [inaudible] out of us. One of the things that I say, I tell people often, is that one of the things that this book does is it gives you a lot of examples of what--kind of what happens in nature. It talks about fractals and these small patterns that we consistently that really moves our world. So just, you know, it speaks to many people who really want to move (with?) the world and just need more intention on how to do that in a practical and a [inaudible] way.Zach: That's beautiful. And, you know, when you were talking about--as you both were talking about Frequencies and really the course itself and how it really focuses on being intentional with the little things, quote unquote, that you do and the people that you engage with, it kind of reminds me of a topic that we've discussed on the show around just being socially and emotionally intelligent, right? So being cognizant of who you are, being cognizant of your own emotions as well as how you're coming off and reading the social cues of others and just being intentional and purposeful with your time. So I believe there's a lot of relevance and intersection from that perspective as well. I'm curious now, who else would you say--when you kind of talked about Frequencies, you talked about Project Curate--who would you say that inspires this work for you all? Who would you say really, really is someone that you would point to and say, "Wow, this is why we do what we're doing."Jessica: You know, someone for me that came to mind is someone who was talked about a lot in this book that we're working through, and that's Octavia Butler, who was actually a writer, a novelist, and was a specialist in what people now know of as science fiction writing, believe it or not. So what I think what's really dope about Octavia Butler is what she asks us to do is imagine a world beyond the one that we see right now, and that that world that we want is actually possible. We can create that, that the structures that are in place now, that are unjust structures, those can be rethought, but it's--one way to go about that is to, you know, work for kind of large-scale change and to do the activist work and to hold up the signs, but another way to do it is to think about how to build community with one another, how to be in relationship with one another. And so when I think about her work and I think about her writing and I think about her thinking, she laid out a blueprint for us to think about how to do this in a way that is more holistic, more just to ourselves, because I think what we were recognizing is that a lot of folks who are in this fight for justice or a lot of folks who are trying to make a change on their jobs, whether that's in the corporate world or elsewhere, feel like they have to take on a lot and do a lot, and that's true. I mean, they do have to do that, but what would it mean for us to scale it back and think about these just--starting with your relationships, starting with the relationship with yourself, right, and making sure that you are doing justice to yourself. Those kind of questions will come into play, and when you say who inspires us, I think definitely Octavia Butler's writing is definitely a part of that.Secunda: And I also think of--and one of our team members brought this up about those folks who are excited about, you know, shifting our world or shifting our systems, and to--I think about folks who would have an opportunity to start off with a clean slate, right? So there are those of us who have been practicing in a way, you know, corporate tells you. You know, the way you learn in school, the way you learn to organize or do something just in a corporate structure, and then there are those who are just getting their feet wet, and they come in with a clean slate, and they have an opportunity to create something from a more holistic perspective, right? Instead of watching all this--you know, somebody like myself, there's a lot of things I had to unlearn, right, and put into practice, but a person who's new to this, our young people, our younger students who this is their first opportunity to do something, to ignite other people, right? To move themselves and the people around them and to really have the tools to do that in a way that is beneficial for themselves and the people around them. Like, it is--you know, it's like you look at a--in our organizing work, like, we move in a non-linear structure. Like, we are a (leadership-full?) group, and, you know, as we've done this coursework and as we've had these different conversations, we encourage that and we've, you know, taught that in a sense. I hate using the word teach, but we've created space for that. But this takes what we've done--it's like looking at a cell and then breaking it down to an atom. This takes what we've done and just breaks it down in a very easy to sort of easy to ingest--not easy to ingest. [laughs] Way. Yeah, you want to?Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. A lot of the conversation around, you know, how to--how to bring change, again, is we think--we think big, and we think large-scale, and we think how do we organize? This is kind of what (Sec?) said earlier. You know, "We need 100 people to come up in this space," or, you know, "If we want to make a change in the corporate world, we need, you know, 50 employees to help us to sign whatever petition," or whatever, but what this asks us to do is to kind of break that down on a smaller scale and say, "How do we engage--" Let's just start with how we engage with one another. How do we shift--how do we shift the culture of a place, right? How do we shift--yeah, how do we shift our engagements? How do we shift our thinking? It may not mean us meeting, you know, every Saturday to do some kind of direct action, but it can mean me agreeing with myself to say, "When I walk into this space, there's a particular type of energy that I want to bring into this space," or "When I engage with Secunda, I'm gonna make sure that--" You know, if I know that I have a very strong personality, I'm gonna step back and make sure that the way--if I want, you know, to have equality and equity in the world, well, maybe I need to figure out how to have equality and equity in my relationship with Secunda first, right? So that means I need to step back a little bit or think about the ways that I may take up all the air in the space in a room, and then think about how that can--those small-scale things can lead to a sort of cultural shift in how we engage with one another.Zach: This has been an incredible discussion, and I want to make sure, before we get too much further, that folks can know where they can learn more about the program. So would you mind sharing the information for that?Jessica: Yeah. They can go to Project Curate.org. That's our website, and they can go--there's a little Events link there that they can go and visit, and that has a list of our--of the curriculums that we're offering this semester. They will find Frequencies there, and they can register there on the site. Our kickoff is going to be Friday night, September 7th, and that's just gonna be a gathering for folks who have registered and who want to participate with us. We'll have a, you know, small kind of eat food, you know, kind of greet thing happening [inaudible], then kind of introduce everybody, and then our very first session, when we begin to get into the work, will be Saturday, September 22nd, and we'll have more information on the website about locations and that kind of thing.Zach: This is really cool, and so what I want to make sure is we'll have the information, Project Curate.org, that website, in our show notes so folks can direct from there, and then we'll make sure to encourage our folks to check it out, especially if they're in Houston, right? If they're in Houston to check it out and to engage with it. So it's really exciting. So before we go, any shout outs or parting words?Secunda: Parting words? Just thank you for having us on, and I just want to encourage people to just begin doing the move of just doing a little research on [inaudible] and some of the conversations that are available on [inaudible], and I think of where, like, you'll be really intrigued, if you're not able to attend the class, just to start the conversations at home with yourself.Jessica: Yeah, and I'll add--you know, what's a beautiful thing about this is all of the material that we're using is really written and produced by black women, and so it's a really beautiful thing to think about how this presents an opportunity for us to really, I don't know, mind the beauty that's there of our culture and what people are producing and the new [inaudible] that people are putting out, and so shout outs to all the black women who are doing innovative work out there, and we hope that this space will really encourage folks to sink deeper into the work that's there.Zach: Absolutely. I'm so excited and thankful that you guys were here, so thank you, thank you both. Excuse me, I said you guys. I should be more inclusive with my language. I'm so thankful that you both were able to join us, and I think when you talk about--when you talk about the community and the relationship aspect, that's so relevant for Corporate America because so often when we talk about inclusion and diversity or we talk about creating some type of change we talk about it at this high level, almost like top-down approach, where as really if it's a people-driven thing, then the focus should be the people, and it's not really ever going to--you're not really gonna see any major transformation organizationally, socially, politically, whatever domain you're operating in, until you're able to actually operate and start at a people--person-to-person perspective, and I think this course, and really Project Curate as a non-profit social impact organization, really reinforces that, and so I just want to thank you both again. And that does it for us on the show, so thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport, members of Project Curate. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, we discuss the practical importance of self-awareness with international coach, public speaker and entrepreneur, Tye Miles.Learn about Tye Miles here:https://www.tyemiles.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, yall? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to another B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that's right, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: There we go. That's what I'm talking about. Now, often times we have a special guest, and this episode is no different. We have Tyeisha Miles. Tyeisha is an international coach, public speaker, writer, and entrepreneur. Her company, The Inner Work, trains women, leaders, and service providers with a desire to make a greater impact ready to create their own success, know their worth, and craft realistic plans to achieve their goals so they can manifest their full potential with the fulfillment of serving others with their gifts. Tyeisha, Tye, welcome to the show. How are you?Tye: I am absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for having me speak to your tribe today. I'm really excited about this.Zach: Come on, now. My tribe? I like that language. Now, [laughs] today we're talking about social intelligence. So, you know, as I introduced you--you are a coach. How do you, as a coach, leverage social intelligence?Tye: Oh, my goodness. Social intelligence, it's incredible. It has such a huge impact on an individual's life, their personal success and their professional success cannot exceed their ability to really deal with this. As a coach, I leverage it in a way to either tap into their pain or their pride to get them to their desired results. For example--this is a very easy example that I think everybody can really get. I have a client right now who desires a physical transformation. She wants to lose weight. She's tried to lose weight. She's tried to lose weight several times in the past. And so with this social intelligence, I tap into her pride because--you know, I let her know, "You're not a quitter. You're loyal to yourself. You're competitive, and you're diligent. That's the reason you're here talking with me after you have tried XYZ in the past. You're still at it. You still want your goal, and so I used that by knowing her, you know, hearing her pain, I used that to help her get to her desired results.Zach: Can you talk to us a little bit about your story and how being able to effectively manage your own emotions while reading the emotions of others was so important for you?Tye: Absolutely. So a little bit about my story. I am a mother. I became a mother at the age of 16. Happily married for 17 years now. I have three incredible children, and I believe in being transparent. That's what makes me a (big?) coach, so I'm gonna be tastefully transparent here with you all today. [laughs] So I like to, like, draw a comparison 'cause I think people can really get it. For me, I grew up in the projects. Had my first baby at 16. I was sexually abused as a child by someone I trusted, and even sexually harassed on the job, and so I'm sharing those few things to kind of share, you know, my thinking before because of these experiences, and a lot of us in our adult life, you know, these things are showing up, you know, really blocking our success personally and professionally. So for instance, before I really understood what emotional and social intelligence is and how important, you know, that piece of the puzzle made in my life, me growing up in the projects, I had the mentality that I wasn't good enough, that I was always gonna be a part of the status quo. You know, me being sexually abused as a child, I had the understanding that I can't trust people, even the people that are closest to me because they're always looking out to serve themselves, you know? Being sexually harassed at work, it made me intimidated by men in authority. Being a teenaged mom, becoming a teenaged mom, I was a straight A student. I became known as the sneaky smart girl, and that made me, like, sort of over-correct for my past mistakes, always seeking the approval of others to a fault. And so all of these things show up in my adulthood. It wasn't really until about 7 years ago I was like, "Okay, I can't continue to live my life like this. What am I gonna do different?" Of course they showed up in different scenarios. So since taking the time to really understand and get to know myself, I've been able to first acknowledge where that mindset, that habit, that pattern of thinking came from and how it was showing up in my life. I had to acknowledge it, but then I also was able to say when these types of situations of happen, when I'm in the board room with a male, I know from my past usually it makes me intimidated and I take myself out the [inaudible], just letting men lead, but because I'm aware of how my past responses were due to that emotion, I'm able to intellectually change. I'm able to be aware of that and change and adjust my response, like, in real-time, based on what I know about myself. And so it's literally transformed my life. It's literally transformed my life, and it's so very important. I really believe that the most neglected relationship on earth is a person's relationship with their self. We do not take the time to get to know ourselves. We become adults who allow stuff to crowd out our lives, and we never come back to really understanding who we are. Zach: That's so--that's just so profound, right? And it's just so interesting, your point around the fact--you said the biggest relationship we don't develop or pour into is the one with ourselves, because [inaudible]--so I'm a consultant. There's people I meet every day and I work with, I'm like, "Are you not aware of the way that you're behaving?" Like, I'm not a psychologist, but it's like, "Are you--like, where are you right now? Why would you do that? Why would you say that in this context, in this particular scenario?" And it's--to me, it speaks to, to your point, a lack of just self-awareness, but when you say self-awareness I think of it in a much more just intentional and deeper way, self-awareness kind of being like okay, where are you in where you're standing and making sure you don't trip over something. Off the tails of what you were just speaking to, I'm talking about genuinely understanding and knowing yourself and how valuable that is and how you interact and engage with others, so that's just so profound. I'm curious, when you talk about, you know, your experiences and how you've transitioned into being a coach and a public speaker and an entrepreneur, what were some of the biggest challenges with that? Especially as a black woman. What are some of the things that you've had to navigate and manage through?Tye: I think the biggest things for me--two big things that just stand out the most to me. One, there is a lack of munity in our community. I'm sure it affects all of us, but we really, as black people and as black women in a category of our own, we tear ourselves down. We tear one another down. And the second thing, we have to learn how to honor differences. These are the two biggest challenges. How to get along with someone, how to come together collectively to fulfill and achieve an overall goal, and honoring differences. We can work together, although we do not think alike, you know? So for instance, I found that in my transition, interestingly, men allow me to come in. Men, male professionals, allow me to come in and own my awesomeness. They allow me to come in and be the bold, vibrant, energetic Tye doing her thing whenever I work a project, whereas I've found, as a black woman around black women, there is this sense of--this sense of heightened insecurities, or they feel threatened. I have a presence. I'm a 6 feet tall black woman, you know? I have short [inaudible] hair, and I'm very confident. I had to learn how to be very confident, and these things I've found--not all women, but a lot of women, they want me to dim my light. They want to keep me in this box because they don't want me to show them up, and that's not my intention to show them up, it's because of an insecurity. I strongly believe that, you know, as a coach, as I'm in my public speaking atmosphere, when I'm going into trainings, when I'm looking to collaborate and co-create with individuals, you know, we have to understand that it's--you know, we're only as strong as the weakest link and that when you surround yourselves with strong individuals, you yourself--you're pushed up as a strong individual yourself. It doesn't take away from who you are. It actually adds credibility and value to who you are, to your organization and what you're doing, and so, you know, those are the two biggest challenges, just really navigating--you know, how can I go in and not step on toes but reach the goal? You know, use what I have and take what they have to reach a common goal, and then just understanding how to have effective communication in a way that honors the differences, you know? We succeed and achieve what we set out to do.Zach: You know, what advice would you give younger professionals who are trying to navigate this corporate space as it pertains to social and emotional intelligence?Tye: Oh, gosh. This is so good. One, I believe and I have found that your dollar is in your difference, and what I mean by that--in a corporate space it can be highly competitive. There's several people that may be doing what you're doing, and so in that you need to master your craft, you know? Don't just go in being okay building your skill set to the status quo. No, go in and learn everything you can learn. Do the things that other people don't want to do. Don't always go in with the mindset of a paycheck. Go in with the mindset of "How can I best use what I'm learning through a certain experience to maximize my potential?" And then be authentic. Be yourself, you know? Like I said, the skill set--they can go get anyone to complete a role or to do a certain duty, to fulfill a task, but they can't get you. They can't get your personality. So the two of those alone, which to say is your dollar is in your difference. My dollar is in my difference. I defined that. I determined that by mastering my craft, taking what I do seriously, and being myself. And then the second thing I would say is just really to know your worth, independent of the opinion and approval of others. Know your worth. Don't allow what other people think about you--don't allow your title, their title, your money, the knowledge of their money, their description of their role, to make you feel any less. Know your worth independent of anything else, and then when you're able to do that, when you can just build your confidence to the place where it doesn't matter what another person thinks about you, your confidence is on 100, you become unstoppable. Confidence is attractive. It is a virtue that every young individual needs in the corporate climate. It's attractive. Naturally you're gonna be happier, naturally you're gonna get your job done easier. You're gonna be able to make friends while at work. You're gonna be able to get things done without rubbing people the wrong way unnecessarily. Zach: We talked about the fact that you're a coach and that you have a variety of clients and that, you know, you've been doing this for a couple of years. Now, where can people learn more about you?Tye: Absolutely. You can find me on social media - Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram at @thetyemiles, and I'll spell that out. T-H-E-T-Y-E-M-I-L-E-S. That's on all social media platforms, or you can just go over to my website at tyemiles.com. Zach: Awesome. Well, we'll make sure to put that in the show notes so that folks can engage that further. Now, this has been a great conversation. Before we wrap though, do you have any shout outs?Tye: I just want to send some love to you for having me on. Speaking to your tribe has been a pleasure. To my husband, who has been an absolute tremendous support through all of my different phases, and to my children. To my children. So thank you again for this amazing opportunity just to share my raw thoughts.Zach: This has been awesome. Now, look, guys. That does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so you can spare a dollar a month--I know you can, I hope you can--spare a dollar a month to support content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America. Show us some love. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Zach. You have been listening to Tyeisha Miles. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with full time day trader, Teri Ijeoma to talk about her journey and get her tips pertaining to building financial independence through investing.Learn About Teri here:https://investwithteri.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now yes--of course yes, we're late into the first season--we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow more lit--that's right, more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions with the hosts we have, extended monologues, or maybe just a chat with a special guest. Today we have another great special guest, Teri Ijeoma. Teri is an educator turned real estate agent turned NPO executive turned educator again turned real estate agent again turned full-time investor. That's a lot of switches. Today, Teri travels the world and invests from the comfort somewhere near the last postcard that you got.Teri: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Teri, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Teri: I'm great. How are you? Thanks for having me.Zach: Thank you for being here. So I know you love traveling. What are some of your favorite cities?Teri: Oh, man. I think my biggest surprises have been Seoul, South Korea. I thought Korea would be something totally different than it is, but it's just so beautiful. And then Tel Aviv is real. It's like a mix between Chicago and Miami. It's gorgeous. It's beautiful.Zach: That sounds incredible. So today we're talking about financial freedom. I know I set you up in your intro, but what does financial freedom mean to you? And what have you done to move closer to achieving it for yourself?Teri: Wonderful question. For me, financial freedom means not having a boss. My testimony is that I've worked so hard to help other people's dreams come true. I was always the first one in the office, the last one to leave, but then I realized, like, I was helping everyone else's dreams just get bigger, but not my own. And I'd have my own passions on the side, so I'd be doing real estate and helping other people on the side and investing on the side while I was spending most of my time helping other people's dreams come true. So for me, financial freedom is being able to have the money to do what you love when you want to, and that's why I started trading and investing, so that I could trade and travel. Zach: So speaking about investing, what would you say are some of the common misconceptions that are associated with being an investor or actively being engaged in active investing? What would you say are some of the common misconceptions?Teri: A lot of people feel like they're just not smart enough, like they have to be some math major or know numbers to be able to invest, but really you just need to be able to see companies that you like and see trends and go for it. Another big misconception is that you have to have a lot of money, but I think that you should learn the skill when you don't have money so that as you do get more income then you can learn how to make it multiply as it comes in. Those are probably the two biggest ones that I see a lot, people just being scared or thinking they don't have enough money to start.Zach: Okay. Now, I'm not trying to give your sauce away, right? But if you had to give three tips for how folks interested in investing should get started, what would they be?Teri: Of course I'd tell people to take my class because I think taking classes is important.Zach: Yes. [laughs]Teri: I've been trading eight years. In the first seven years,I can honestly say I was just trying to do it on my own and losing money. It wasn't until I took classes and went to school that it actually started--like, started growing and becoming something that I could truly live off of. So I think education is important. Another thing is pick good companies. A lot of people want to invest in penny stocks and things that aren't really that good of a company. You really make money when you invest in valued companies that can give you good returns, and we do have a class on that too, like, how to pick good companies. And then I think the next part is being able to protect your portfolio. I hear so many stories of people who blew up their accounts because they made this big investment that they thought would be the best thing, and then it went down and now they don't have any money left. So I think you need to learn how to protect your portfolio. Like, did you know you can actually put orders in that will get you out of a trade if it goes down? Like, you can automate that so that you can go to work and don't have to think about it. So I think being able to protect your portfolio is important too.Zach: Well, see, this is the thing about when it comes to investing for me. I'm pretty risk-averse when it comes to that space, and so for me I know that I would really benefit from going to some sort of class to formally learn because when I think about day trading, I think about investing, I think about, like, Wolf of Wall Street, or, you know, if I want to go old school, like, Trading Places. I think about, like, very volatile, risky activities, right? So, like, you know, my investments really center around my Roth IRA, my 401K and longer-terms (holes?) that I have, so I definitely believe when it comes to--when it comes to being a little more engaged in that space, I have plenty of--a ways to go, and I would actually venture that a lot of folks who are listening in have a ways to go as well. So, you know, where can people learn more about you? And if I wanted to learn from you about trading, how could I do that?Teri: Sure, great question. So we have a website called Invest With Teri. So investwithteri, T-E-R-I--and that's all one word--dot com. If you go to my website, you can put in your email address, and we'll send you updates of our new fall enrollment. We actually have online self-paced classes, and then for advanced students I have actually one-on-one coaching to help them invest. So I think that's a great place to start. And then just in your comment about, like, 401Ks, I think that's always great to invest in retirement, but a lot of those are only giving you, like, 2%-5% returns, where as the market last year was up 25%. So there was a lot of upside that you missed out on if you weren't actually looking at companies for yourself. So I think we just don't get taught that kind of stuff, and we should be. Zach: No, I absolutely--I agree, and I think, to your point, we don't think about that, right? We're like, "Okay, look. We got this job. Let's just hold on to what we have." We're not necessarily trying to put ourselves out there and really over-extend or expose ourselves more than we feel like we need to, but to your point earlier when you were talking about financial freedom and really being in a position to not have to work for somebody else, what you're talking about speaks to a certain level of intentionality, right? And effort, because it's easy, right--again, I have a 401K and I have a Roth IRA. I'm not shaming people who are in that bucket who are like, "I'm just gonna invest in these spaces." It's just that to really get to that next level of financial independence it's gonna take a certain level of intentionality on an individual level, right?Teri: Exactly, exactly.Zach: So this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words of wisdom?Teri: Thank you so much for letting me come on the show. I just help people to take risks. Like, you won't be able to get to a higher level if you never take risks. So invest. Like, invest in anything, just something. Take a risk, and you'll do better.Zach: [laughs] This has been great. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna make sure that we have all of your information in the show notes, and we'll shout you out to make sure folks sign up. Guys, people, if you're listening to this, make sure you at least give Teri's info a look. She has great resources, great information, and I am positive that you will be happy with what you see, okay? So that does it for us. Thank you for listening and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Teri Ijeoma. Peace. [winding down sound effect]Zach: Yay. [laughs] Teri: [laughs]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We break from our normal formatted shows to share our feelings on the killing of Botham Jean by police.Information on the killing of Botham JeanBotham Jean Go-Fund-MeCampaign ZeroTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach.Latricia: And this is Latricia.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. We've said it a few times before, but I want to reiterate - Living Corporate is not a current events podcast. Our content has been consistently evergreen, however that isn't the goal to itself, right? Like, we started Living Corporate to have authentic, courageous discussions around topics that explore the perspectives of folks that are often ignored in the workplace. So we're gonna break from our typical format and talk about Botham Jean, but at a larger level, black death at the hands of police, the effect it has on black observers--particularly those in the workplace--and what companies at large can do, and what professionals can do, and not do, to promote empathy and allyship. Latricia, can you talk about how you felt when you heard the news of Botham Jean?Latricia: Yeah, it was really tough. It's been a day now, and I'm still processing everything. But yeah, it was a normal Friday for me. Woke up, got on client calls, different meetings, and I didn't really have enough time to open my phone and check Instagram 'cause I was so busy that morning, and then maybe around noon I check Instagram and I see very--it seemed like a very familiar face all over my IG, and I'm kind of confused as to what's going on, and I read the story, I see that another black man has been shot down by the police, and it's someone basically in my own backyard. We live in the same city. We're actually previous coworkers, and it was just unbelievable. I just remember the articles over and over again and hoping, you know, maybe he was shot but he's not dead because I just could not--I just couldn't believe it. It was tough, and I will--I wasn't able to focus at work at all. I just shut down. And, you know, I know I had, like, different things that I needed to get done for the day, but in that moment I was just like, "I can't." Like, I'm sitting here, like, trying to work, but I'm still on Instagram, still--you know, I have the TV on, I'm watching the news, I'm--you know, I have different people reaching out to me, and I just couldn't focus, and so that day I just had to shut down early, yesterday. How about you, Zach? How'd you feel when you heard the news?Zach: Yeah. So--so at first I just--like, I saw it because--I was in the middle of my work day, so I saw it, and it didn't--it didn't resonate to me as to what was going on, right? So I was like, "Okay, what is this? So you're saying he was in his apartment, and he opened up the door and he was killed in his own apartment by the police?" And there was--like, for me, my initial feeling was just complete just--again, just--I don't--I don't want to say shocked, but I--somehow I was shocked, I guess because as many times as we've seen this happen before, this one seemed to be just so, if somehow possible, even more egregious and indefensible than all these others indefensible moments, right? This man was just exi--looking at the story, it's like he was just existing in his home. He opens the door and he was murdered, and for me it--then I went from being, like, just shocked and confused to being, like, angry because of the way that the story is being shared, which is "So a police officer thought it was their apartment and then shot the person who opened the door because they thought it was an intruder?" And it's like--it's like, look, I try not to be overly arrogant, but, like, don't insult my intelligence. That statement in itself doesn't even make any sense. Like, that's the--I'm calling shenanigans on that. That's ridiculous. So then--so then it went from just disbelief, shock, to anger, to then just mournful, right? And, you know, all these deaths are close to home. You know, they could be my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my friends. They could be you. They could be me. And I know we've talked about this on the mental wellness episode, but this one was jarring because our profiles are so similar. Black man. Minister. Super close to his mom, and he's in consulting. And, you know, I had to step away and just allow myself a few tears before I kind of got back to work 'cause I was working with others, and, you know, other people, they heard about the news and it was kind of like, "Oh. Hm, okay," but, you know, on my flight back home, you know, I had a window seat, and man, I just put on some music and I wept. I wept. I cried really hard. You know, Latricia, you and I, we exchanged a lot of text messages about this. You know, do you feel as if you have the emotional liberty to, like, mourn these things at work?Latricia: Yeah. It's interesting because we were in two different settings when this happened, right? You were actually physically in the workplace around other people. Every Friday I work from home, and so like you did on your flight back home, I wept. I cried and cried, and the tears just came out, you know, here and there. And, you know, being in my own home, right, I can do that. I have this space. I feel like I'm protected in my own home to do those types of things, but to be honest with you, no. I feel like when I'm in the workplace I just have to work through it, and it sucks because I don't feel like it's a reason--I don't feel like it's reasonable to other people when I mention things like this and how it affects me mentally. Even yesterday, you know, I contemplated over and over again, like, "Do I tell a coworker how I'm feeling right now?" And if I do that, you know, will they think--will, like, they understand where I'm coming from? Will this be a valid reason to grieve in their mind? But surprisingly I did--you know, I've learned to be a lot more open. I think the Living Corporate podcast has helped me build up a lot more courage to speak about some of these things, and I did have a conversation with some coworkers on Friday, and I let them know, like, "Hey, I don't know if you saw this in the news, but it's really bothering me," and, you know, we exchanged a couple of text messages, and they were very understanding, and so, I mean, I was very fortunate that, you know, I'm really close with my coworkers and they tend to be open-minded people, but it was difficult, right? It's just not natural for me to have those types of conversations with my coworkers.Zach: Yeah. No, I feel the same way, and so, you know, multiple studies have shown that witnessing death or hearing about the death of black people can produce PTSD-like symptoms for black people. So to your point, like, consider feeling like that, but everyone around you who doesn't look like you is just continuing on like life is normal, right? So emotionally, like, you're on an island, and you feel stuck. You're confused. You're mad. You may be scared, and you're ignored, right? So it's like I already feel--I already feel like this. So then compounded by respectability politics, and to your point around, like, feeling as if, you know, I won't be seen as reasonable, or I may be seen as out of control or just emotionally unstable, which then could affect my financial well-being, you know? It's just--you feel even more isolated, and I guess for me historically that's always been the case. Like, so starting from, like, Trayvon Martin, which I recognize was a police-involved murder of a black person, but Mike Brown, right? So every--each one of these situations. If there's ever a situation where a black person was killed on camera by the state, you know, I would have coworkers--never once has anyone been like--one, just keep your opinions to yourself. There's always some type of opinion being shared, and it's always, it's consistently been "Well, we need to know all the facts." "Well, you know, it seems as if they had a criminal record," and, you know, "It seems as if though they should've just been complying." And so I'm in the middle of hearing all of this. I am a black person. I'm hearing my coworkers--who I'm gonna have to work with, and my job, my livelihood, is built upon and dependent upon me working with them--hear them make these statements. Meanwhile, I'm mourning, right? And so it's just tough. Like, you just feel stuck.Latricia: Yeah, it is. It's so interesting some of the different things that you bring up, like respectability politics and how they always insert themselves into situations like this, and they're often used to completely reject the validity behind some of our concerns around police brutality. And it's even tough for me to say this, but this situation with Botham Jean is very interesting because we know that he worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers. That's literally in almost every single headline in the news. He was extremely intelligent, went to, you know, Harding University, recognized by chancellors and, you know, obviously very smart if you work at a very competitive firm. And so now it's kind of interesting, right? Like, I feel like a lot more people are kind of engaging in the conversation. Granted we don't know all the facts, and I've still heard the "we don't know all the facts" commentary, but it's interesting though, Zach. Like, I don't know if you--I don't know if this is gonna be what wakes people up, and if it is it's unfortunate that, you know, this is what it takes - more black men dying, more black women dying, but I feel like a lot more people are starting to somewhat engage in this conversation, a lot more people that don't look like us. Zach: Yeah, no. And to be clear, right, like, there'd be--there are times when I've talked to people, you know, who don't care about black and brown folks dying at the hands of police, and I've told them in confidence--I say--and it's always professional, but it's very direct, and I say, "Look, recognize that you have--you have coworkers that look like the people that are being killed in the media, so there should be a level of empathy from you because it could easily be a coworker," and to your point about the fact that you used to work at this company, he was a coworker to thousands of people, to so many people, and regardless of--regardless of the fact that if he wasn't intelligent, which he was, if he wasn't a minister--and everyone is saying he was a community servant and of course very engaged and loving with his family. If he was none of those things, he was still a human being. But it compounds the fact that he was someone--he was someone on this earth that was, quote unquote, doing the right thing, simply existing, and now he's gone. And so now people are hopefully, to your point, paying attention and having these discussions, but it goes beyond just having discussions about it after the fact. It's about being present and empathetic and aware, generally speaking, just, like, every day. And, you know, what's gonna frustrate me but I'm sure it's gonna be part of the narrative is "Oh, he was one of the good ones." It's like, "Look, all of these people are human beings, and none of these people deserved to die." It's frustrating that people have to--like, stuff has to be brought to your front door before you can empathize. And, like, he shouldn't have--he shouldn't have been murdered senselessly liked this for people to open their eyes. There's been fifty-'leven deaths of black people. I mean, we'll talk about this later in the show, but we're gonna--we'll point you to resources and research that shows the amount of death and trauma that black folks have been going through by the hands--at the hands of police, right? And, like, this is not new. I'm just--and I'm frustrated. Like, you know, this might be the only show where everyone's really hearing me, like, genuinely upset. Right? Like, I'm hurt. Let's keep it going. So I known that we've come together, and we have a list of some things that we wanted to talk about, so why don't you go ahead and talk about that, Latricia?Latricia: Yeah. So, you know, what can we do when it comes to how we address these things in the workplace? We don't have all the answers. You know, I brainstorm about these things all the time, and I think from, you know, the C-Suite level, you know, what can we do? These corporations have so much power and influence and, you know, the list is so long, but I still get stuck. Like, I start to think about, you know, coalitions that can be built and, you know, voting and things like that, but then I just wonder, like, how is this really gonna impact the day-to-day experiences of black and brown people? And so I thought about it, and I was like, "Okay, well, let's just--" I thought about it and I said, "Let's just scale this back a bit and look at this at a more micro level. What can we do in the workplace as coworkers to address situations like this when they come up?" And unfortunately it's happening way too often, and so Zach and I were kind of thinking about it, and there's three things that, you know, we think are really important to remember at times like this. One is to not ignore pain. And so we talked about our pain throughout this episode. We've both been very open and honest about how this has affected us, you know? It's been 48 hours now, and it's important to be able to grieve, right? It's a human response to tragedy, and so when it comes to, you know, being able to mourn or grieve, you do need the support from your coworkers. One thing that we talked about on a past episode related to mental wellness when I interviewed Dr. Tobi Odunsi was the concept of calling in black, you know? It may sound funny, but it's real. If you need to tell your manager or your coworker or, you know, staff that you manage that you need time to grieve in a situation like this, allow yourself that time. Don't--you know, be reason--I mean, obviously, you know, if you have things that have to get done, you know, figure out a plan to get it done, or if you don't have the time to figure out a plan don't, you know? Take the time out for yourself to grieve and, you know, as a coworker it's important to be understanding when someone needs that time. Zach: So two is empathy, and so--you know, empathy means putting yourself in that person's shoes, but, like, let me just be really frank, right, about, like, just a practical definition of empathy. When a black person is dealing with, or you know that--you can tell. You ask them or they bring it up or if you see something in the news of someone dying at the hands of police and they happen to be a black person, just pause and imagine if that person was white, right? So how would you feel if that person was white? Okay. So then those feelings, just apply them to that situation and then you have empathy, right? So empathy is regarding someone else's situation as your own. Empathy is imagining and positioning yourself to think about that situation practically affecting you. I think it's just so easy. I remember--during the Ferguson protests, I remember--I was at work. I just remember coworkers being like, "Okay, yeah, we get it. He died. Okay, we get it. All right." Like, "What's the big deal? People die every day," or "They're going about it the wrong way," or whatever. And even more recently the kneeling, the protests against systemic injustice and police brutality and systemic racism, right? People talking about "That's just the wrong way to do it," "That's the wrong platform," "This is disrespectful," "I don't understand what they're talking about," "The real issue is black-on-black crime," and whatever else other talking points you want to have. Like, just imagine that it was a white person going through whatever it is that that black person is going through. Just put a white person--just replace the black person with a white person. We know that empathy exists. Like, I've seen people practice empathy with others. I've seen it. There was a situation when, like, that kid was bullied. He was bullied, and he was, like, an elementary school kid. He was bullied, and they raised like a hundred something thousand dollars for that kid, right? Because he was being bullied, and it was--so they decided to empathize by supporting that child and family financially, right? So it's not as if we can't empathize, it's about making a choice to empathize by viewing that person as equal to you and a part of your community, and I do believe that we're more similar than we are different.Latricia: And the third thing is to be authentic during situations like this. So this really does piggyback off of showing that empathy, and I can give an example of authenticity. So the great thing that I really do enjoy about my job is the opportunity to travel. It can suck sometimes with personal life, but it has afforded me the opportunity to meet people from all walks of life, and so a young Nigerian girl from Dallas, Texas, is not as likely to come across, you know, a 40-year-old Egyptian man from Boston, Massachusetts and call him her friend. I've had that opportunity to meet all different types of people, and I was really surprised on Friday when multiple coworkers reached out to me just to check on me and see how I was doing, and none of them were black. They were different races, different sexualities, different age groups, young and older, and I really did appreciate that, and I appreciated it because they were being authentic. I know for some people they may feel like, you know, a black person dies and so you have to text the only black person you know or you have to text the first black person you can think of. And, you know, that can make some people uncomfortable, and I completely understand that, and I've felt uncomfortable in situations like that before as well, but when I know it's authentic and it's coming from a true place of just, you know, someone caring and someone trying to be understanding and making sure that I'm doing okay, that really makes this job so much better. I think, you know, as Corporate America becomes more and more diverse, we have the opportunity to get to know more people on an authentic level, not just, you know, as your coworker who you manage or they manage you, but just a person and as people. So I will say, like, that really did help me cope yesterday when I received all of those heartwarming messages from my coworkers, and like I said before, it really does help.Zach: I mean, 'cause in these moments--and I think--what I really think that people don't recognize is that in these moments when--when you kill someone, when you murder somebody, you're making a statement about your position on their humanity. And so when someone is killed, someone is murdered, someone dies at the hand of someone else, especially when they did nothing wrong, and it's ignored or there's some kind of, like, off-handed, back-handed comment made about it, whether you recognize it or not, you're dehumanizing that person who died and, to a certain extent, you're dehumanizing yourself because we're all supposed to be a part of the same community, right? Like, the colorblind people or all these folks. Like, there's only one race, the human race. Okay, so then if there's only one race, the human race, how can you be so dismissive of someone else's pain? How can you not empathize? And how can you not practice authenticity here? They're a human being. And so I know for me, to your point, like, I had a couple of friends--I had some white colleagues and friends who reached out to me as well, and those moments mean a lot for me as well because there's so many times in those situations where I just want to--I just want someone just to encourage me and the fact that I'm a--I'm a human being. If you go back and you look at the civil rights protests, men were walking around with signs that just said, "I am a man." Like, "I'm a man." That was the statement, and I think that it's easy if you're in the majority class to dismiss or undervalue how powerful it is just for someone to acknowledge and affirm your humanity, but it goes so far. It goes so far. Living Corporate, we exist to push against systems and norms that were not created with people of color in mind, and so while I don't know--and Latricia, we don't know, like, the perfect answer here. I do know that voting to change laws and measures of accountability is an actionable step. Latricia: Yep. I totally agree, and I know voting can be intimidating when we start to talk about voting at a more local level, but there are a lot of really great resources out there that can help you to stay informed and stay engaged in the voting system.Zach: Yeah, and so let's do this before we wrap up. We want to point folks to resources to mobilize them for action, so one of my favorites and the one that we're gonna be linking in this show is JoinCampaignZero.org. So they're all about ending police brutality of black and brown people in America. It's not rhetoric though. Like, they have resources and tools to help you engage critically and civically to let your voice be heard. So we all have that information in the show notes. Latricia, before we go, any other thoughts?Latricia: I'm just glad that we used this space to have this conversation. That's really why we created Living Corporate, and as Zach mentioned, this is not our typical format for the show, and we just really wanted to have this--take this time out to just express how we feel, and we hope that everyone that's listening is encouraged to be more open about these conversations. If we just keep it all within ourselves and we don't allow ourselves to have those conversations, then we're not gonna be able to push forward.Zach: Absolutely. And that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Latricia: And this is Latricia.Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with facilitator, instructional designer, meeting host and leadership consultant David Foster of Capgemini to talk about the importance of social and emotional intelligence.David's LinkedInTRANSCRIPTAde: “EQ is our ability to manage ourselves and our emotions. In the workplace, this means acting and reacting to events appropriately, such as maintaining your composer and ability to perform under pressure. However, as important as EQ is, it is also necessary but not sufficient for success. Confidence in navigating the workplace culture, high SQ, is the major obstacle for women and minorities. Culture is largely shaped by the dominant group, which for most workplaces is straight white men. This is not a conspiracy or a plot. We all tend to befriend people who are similar to us or with whom we have the most common. We take work breaks with our buddy. We grab a quick lunch with our friend. Women do this. Minorities do this. Straight white men do this. For the latter group however, this often results in power begetting power. Women and minorities in particular need to have high SQs. They need to be perceptive, vigilant, and deliberate in how they navigate the workplace culture. Not being automatically part of the workplace power club is a given for women and minorities. We can bemoan that fact, or we can take action. Taking offense or feeling hurt keeps us stuck. Successfully navigating the workplace culture--demonstrating high SQ--is the key to career growth and success.” The excerpt I just read from Smart Is Not Enough: Why Social Intelligence (SQ) may be the key to career success for women and minorities by Phyllis Levinson challenges what being good enough looks like in the working world, and social and emotional intelligences are the secret sauces to climbing the corporate ladder. How do people groups with lesser social capital and access thrive in these highly competitive spaces? This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. So today we're talking about social and emotional intelligence.Zach: Yeah. So I know you gave the definitions in your intro, but when I think of definitions for these terms, I think of it as emotional intelligence being your ability to understand and manage yourself where as social intelligence is your ability to understand and manage the relationships around you. Ade: That's about right. And I think it's interesting because I would argue that by the nature of black and brown folks being the minority, minorities in the workplace have some of the highest emotional intelligence, right? I mean, I know I'm always thinking about how I'm going to come across, how to speak, how to phrase my questions both in email and in person, and, you know, not live up or down to some stereotypes and come across as angry. And I'd say that's pretty common. I think that code-switching speaks to this phenomenon the most. The fact that we change our voices with the hopes of being accepted and making others feel more comfortable with us speaks to a certain level of emotional intelligence, no?Zach: No, I absolutely agree. And look, I don't think we're saying that minorities don't need help in better developing and honing their emotional intelligence, but it is me saying that you don't often see minorities in the corporate workplace with emotional, like, outbursts. In your experience, how many times have you seen someone that was not white just completely lose control at work, Ade?Ade: Never, and I definitely get your point. Your point is well-taken, but to me the social intelligence part is a huge hurdle. So the article you referenced earlier is interesting because I posit that if power resides with the majority group and people of color don't heavily engage with the majority--like you were saying, people tend to associate with people who are most like them--how do we learn how to navigate those spaces?Zach: It kind of--it actually kind of throws the whole idea or the term of social intelligence into question, right? Because it's not particularly an issue of mental capacity or capability as it is access. Like, I don't know how to manage this particular relationship in the workplace, not because I'm inept but because I don't have access to these relationships in the same ways as folks who don't look like me are. I mean, am I--am I tripping? Am I onto something?Ade: I do think you're onto something. It reminds me of our very first episode with Fenorris when he was talking about the white executive giving him the real talk in that plane, which by the way, side note, I know y'all have been rocking with us for a while, but if you haven't listened to our very first episode with Fenorris Pearson you definitely should go give it a listen. Back to reality. Fenorris was saying that it is essentially obvious when his black colleagues were trying to mimic behavior and mimic a culture that isn't necessarily theirs, and it built more distrust than not ironically. You might also remember this conversation about authenticity in our episode with Janet Pope essentially saying that people who find themselves in the minority, particularly folks of color, often put on personas that we believe mirrors that of the majority when in actuality the people around us who we're trying to mirror don't recognize themselves and they recognize that lack of authenticity.Zach: Right, and that's not really our fault. Like I said before, we don't have access because historically we haven't been allowed access. We're just now really engaging in these spaces [inaudible]. It's only been what, like, 50 years since the last civil rights bill was passed? So it's been, like, a pretty short line. The point is because of the way that Corporate America is set up, we have to have skills that extend beyond the X's and O's. It's not just critical for our growth, it's really needed for our corporate survival.Ade: Right. And you know, it would be great if we could at some point, I mean, over the course of this season, be able to speak to someone who is a bit of a subject matter expert on social and emotional intelligence. Maybe someone with outstanding communication, conflict resolution and interpersonal skills, and I would feel really comfortable, even more comfortable, maybe if they had maybe 20 years of experience as an instructional designer, a corporate facilitator and [inaudible]. And just to put some nice little icing on top, if they were actually responsible for the coaching and professional development of executives for an international consulting firm, I might just faint.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest David Foster?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, you know what it is. Put 'em right there. Let's go. Ade: That's never gonna fail to make me laugh. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Mr. David Foster. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said, we have David Foster on the show. David, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?David: Hey. I'm doing great, Zach. Thanks for inviting me. A real pleasure.Zach: Absolutely, man. So look, as you know, today we're talking about the importance of emotional intelligence in the workplace. Can you talk to us about what emotional intelligence is and how it comes into play with how you do your job?David: Yeah. So a couple things, you know? I work as a facilitator in Capgemini's Accelerated Solutions Environment. You know, despite the fact that we're a technology company we're really in the people business, and, you know, what we specialize in in the ASE is helping people getting aligned really quickly, helping them making decisions, and helping them come up with really innovative solutions to really wicked, challenging problems, and that's not something that you can do without having a high degree of emotional intelligence. You know, as a facilitator I'm typically at the front of the room, and for me it's not really about presenting myself as an expert as much as it is shepherding people through our process. So emotional intelligence for me is something that I have to pay real close attention to. You know, when I think about it, there are a couple of pieces to emotional intelligence. You've got the idea of just perceiving emotions, and so for me, you know, when I'm in front of an audience or a client group, it's about trying to understand where they are emotionally. And a lot of times we're dealing with really charged topics, so understanding what position they are on that rollercoaster is really important, you know? And that's the other part of it is, like, understanding emotions. So you can perceive them and you can feel them, but you have to be able to interpret them a little bit, a lot of bit, you know? That helps you decide what questions you need to ask or helps you decide how you might shift the focus of a session or how you might even capitalize on the emotions that you're perceiving. You know, for me and my position, it's about managing that emotion sometimes, and I'm speaking not only about the client and about the audience, but I'm speaking about myself as a facilitator. Look, we're all human. You know that, Zach. Right? Like, we're all human beings, and when you're standing up in front of a group or even if it's one-on-one, the emotion that comes off of someone or someones, you feel that, right? And so sometimes it's about not only managing the emotion that's coming from folks--maybe it's questioning, you know, the origin of it or where it's coming from, but it's also understanding what it's doing to you, you know? Because it can certainly either trigger your emotions--it might put you in a position where you end up feeling some emotions, you know, based on empathy with a group, but managing those emotions is key. And then it's really about using emotions. So if I think about those four things, like perceiving, understanding, managing and then using--and when I say using, it's not--you're not trying to take advantage of folks in terms of using emotion, but you're looking at and perceiving those emotions, understanding them and trying to figure out, "Okay, how best can we tap into this to help us achieve our goals?" So if there's energy and intent to do something, you know, how do we make sure that we put people in the position so that they can do that? Emotional intelligence is essential, you know? And it's not just in my role. I think it's in every role in our corporate environment, you know? Because like I said, we're a people business, and people have emotions, you know? We are emotional, sentient beings, and so if you think that just your IQ is enough, I think you're sadly mistaken. So that's--in a nutshell, I think, you know, the synopsis of how I think about EQ and how I think about emotional intelligence and it impacts me when it comes to how I do my job as a facilitator. Now, I can extend that even further, you know? There are lots of touch points where I'm not only interacting with colleagues or I'm interacting with clients in different ways, you know? And emotional intelligence extends beyond just when you're in front of the room. It has to do with your interpersonal relationships in terms of how you work with others, you know, how you contribute to a team and how you ultimately can add value to an organization, so.Zach: See, that's so intriguing. So have you had any situations--rather, have you had any situations where you've seen business relationships completely be broken by a lack of emotional intelligence? And if so, would you mind sharing a story?David: Yeah. You know what? Broken is, like, the end, but I think there's a continuum. If you're not keen on or at least focused on emotional intelligence, you can fracture relationships, you can damage relationships. So there's a whole lot that you can do outside of just breaking them. I just did a session this weekend that's really interesting. The guy that was one of the main sponsors of our session, the CIO, you know, he's taken the DiSC profile, and I have my own opinions about assessments. I think they're all information, you know? I don't know if that truly defines who you are and how you are as much as it just gives you information to help you decide how you might proceed in terms of your relationships or in terms of your preferences. And this guy, you know, he had taken the DiSC profile, and so he characterizes himself as a driver, you know? "I'm just a high D. I'm a high D." And it's almost like he uses that as his lead into any sort of conversation, you know? Not to mention that he's also a lawyer by trade, you know? And he's got a penchant for, you know, winning arguments no matter the cost, and he has a penchant for arguing and driving people very, very hard no matter the cost. So here we are in this ASE session, and, you know, the way we work is we have large-group stuff and then we get into breakouts, and I always talk to my sponsors about, you know, when you get into these breakouts you want your people to do the work, and you want to almost sit back, and you want to ask more questions than give more answers, and you don't want to stand up and pontificate. Well, he took this opportunity--they were sharing some information about a particular work stream, and he took this opportunity in front of, you know, a small group of folks to run up one side of this person and down the other, basically asking a lot of pointed questions, creating an argument, trying to win an argument about why certain work hadn't been done, right? And what I saw happen was not only did that change the tone and the tenor of the breakout, but it also changed the tone and tenor of their relationship for the rest of the session, where this person who had been on the receiving end of these very pointed and very argumentative sort of interjections, you know, almost shut down, right? And you don't want to do that, and I think about that, specifically in the session seeing that, but I was wondering, "Man, what is it like every day to work with this person if that's what you have to deal with?" And I actually pulled her aside to check on her and said, you know, "Are you doing okay?" And she said, "That's my everyday." And so when you think about that--you know, here you have this leader who is, you know, putting out front the idea that because "I'm a D, because I'm a high driver, I almost don't have to pay attention to how or what I do and how or what I say impacts the folks that I'm saying it to," because he can hold that shield up in front. And like I said, those assessments and those types of things are really only information, and the fact that he took that opportunity to basically confront this person, you know, not really understanding--well, it's not even not that--he understood what we were doing, but not being sensitive enough or being aware enough to know, you know, what those actions could possibly do to that person within our session. You know, that indicated a pretty severe lack of emotional intelligence. Now, whether or not he's able to repair that relationship I think is up to him. You know, Zach, I've got--and we've talked before about leadership, and we've talked before about, you know, how to lead and different styles of leadership, and I think EQ is, like, a really important arrow in the quiver. It's just one thing, you know? And having a high degree of emotional intelligence allows you to not only be self-aware, but it also allows you to be flexible, right? If you're--if you're focused not only on the things that are triggers for you, your own emotions, you know, that's part of it. You have to pay attention to the other emotions, and you almost have to--you have to be flexible, and you have to be able to adapt your approach, and you have to be able to adapt how you communicate based on the emotions of the other folk in the room, you know? Not just yours, but others, and it was obviously--it was a pretty charged conversation. He had some things he wanted to get out, but there's a way of communicating that so that you don't, like you said, break or damage your relationship. And just to extend the story further, you know, I had a confrontation with him. He wanted to--we have this thing in the ASE called proposals where, you know, people put proposals in front of a group of judges to--you know, what does the way forward look like? Take your best shot, right? So we have--we have the judges, and, you know, he wanted to be a judge, and I told him--I said, "I don't know if that's a good idea." I said, "Based on your closeness to the problem, based on your position in the organization, and based on what I observed," you know, based on how his interactions could change the tone and tenor of conversations, I advised him against it. And he didn't push too hard on that, and he said, "Well, how do the judges work?" I said, "Well, they develop criteria," and he said, "I want to be part of that conversation." And I stopped him and I said, you know, "What's your interest?" Right? And he said, "I want to make sure that my opinions are represented," and I proceeded to lay it out for him. I said, "Look, you know, ASE sessions are a chance for you to let the people in the room own the work, and it's a great chance for leaders to watch their people work. You know, you've got some smart folks here, you know? And you almost have to trust that they're gonna come up with the right criteria," et cetera, et cetera, and Zach, we went back and forth.Zach: Really?David: And talk about emotional intelligence. You know, at that point I have to know what my triggers are, right? So I could've gotten into this back-and-forth argument, but I have to remember my role. My role is a facilitator, right? I can't really hold a position. And I told him that. I said, "I'm not gonna hold a position. As a matter of fact, I'm not gonna argue with you." I said, "I've laid out the risks. I've told you what could happen if you involve yourself in this conversation. Ultimately it's up to you to make the choice, and I'm not gonna stand in your way, but you can't come back to me and look at me and say, "That didn't go the way I thought it would," because I cautioned you and I warned you," and I said, "I'm basically done arguing with you because it's obvious that you want to win this argument. So, you know, if you want to be part of this criteria development, have at it." And so we walked away from each other. Relationship wasn't broken. You know, still respected me as a facilitator, and as we're getting back into the main space--'cause we were pulling people together to get them ready to do this assignment--he stops me and he says, "You know, I've changed my mind. I'm not gonna be part of it." I said, "Okay," and so I proceeded to set up the assignment, send people out, and then I found him and I said, "Would you mind telling me what changed your mind?" And he said it was ego. He said, "That conversation between you and I was all about ego," and he said, "I have to be better about managing my emotions, and I have to be better about managing my ego, and sometimes I need to exercise a bit more humility." And he actually went back to the other conversation. He said, "You know, I had a situation where I went at somebody on my team pretty hard, and that wasn't a good thing. And I did the same thing to you, and that wasn't a good thing." So in that small little microcosm you had somebody who was on the one end, you know, really not aware. Like, self--maybe self-aware, you know, using the DiSC assessment as his form of awareness, but not aware of how he was behaving would impact others, right? Really not understanding the emotions that he was generating based on how he was interacting, and he actually--the pendulum actually swung for him, you know? So I don't know when it happened, how it happened. I don't know if I had anything to do with it. You know, maybe it was just the switch flipped, and he was--you know, all of a sudden he had the ability to say, "You know what? I really need to take a step back and look at how my behavior and how I'm managing my emotions and how I'm using my emotions is actually impacting others," you know? And I think that's an important point, and I'm sorry to just prattle on, but, you know, emotional intelligence is a skill. It's something that you can develop. It's something that you can learn, and a lot of times one of the ways we learn is by reflecting, self-reflection, on the situations that we've been presented with, how we've responded, how we've behaved, and how we might change or how we might do things differently.Zach: As you know, our show focuses on people of color in the workplace, like their experiences and perspectives and really having authentic discussions around that idea and around that identity. So I would posit minorities have more pressure to be self-aware by the nature of them just being minorities, by the nature of them being--David: [inaudible].Zach: Right? The smallest group in the space. There's pressure, or there's an expectation that we just need to be more self-aware. So what advice would you give to a people group who's already aware that they are the minority when it comes to growing and developing emotional intelligence?David: Yeah. You know what? We could--how much time do we have? Man, [laughs] because--so I think about that a lot, and maybe some historic context here. This idea that we, because we have been so excluded as people of color from institutions of--I mean, call it whatever. Learning. Institutions of earning. You know, social institutions. We've always been in positions where we've had to extend the olive branch, or if I think about the middle ground, we're always crossing that middle ground, do you know what I mean? Like, we're always expected to reach further and reach farther because these institutions have been established before us, and they weren't designed with us in mind, right? And it's--you know, if we want entry into them, you know, we're the ones that have to make the choices and decisions about how to interact with people. It's almost like we have to present ourselves in ways that make it okay for people to accept us, right? Which is an emotionally charged conversation, and again, we could spend, you know, four, five, eight podcasts. It's an ongoing conversation, right? So I don't disagree with you. I think we have to be, as people of color and as a minority group within, you have to be extremely self-aware, number one about your emotions, because there's a lot that could trigger you, you know? And understanding what your triggers are and understanding intent behind what people say or how they interact with you, being able to manage your emotions. It's a skill you have to have, you know? I would almost say forget about excelling, right? Forget about the idea of being promoted or moving up in an organization. I mean, talk just surviving, right? So think about being on projects. Think about being part of teams. How do you, as someone coming to this already in a position where, you know, people have perceptions of you whether or not we're welcome, whether or not we're able to perform at the same level. How do you manage that and then still do your job? I think emotional intelligence is something that you absolutely have to have. Without that, you know, this business will chew you up and basically spit you out. And it's not just EQ, Zach. You know, it's not just emotional intelligence. It's almost like you have to have some social awareness, you know what I mean? Like, you have to--you have to have a bit of empathy, a lot of empathy. You've got to really understand, you know, the organization, you know what I mean? You really have to know where you're working and who you're working for, and in that self-management, you know, how to be--how to control yourself in what can be emotionally charged situations. It's critical, you know? The only way that you're gonna succeed, you know, is if you have a strong sense of, you know, social EQ or social IQ and emotional intelligence. I read something--you know, this guy Daniel Goleman, which--I mean, his model of emotional intelligence is one that's been around for a really long time, you know? He said, "IQ is only 20% of it." Right? EQ is 80%, and I would--I'd offer that social IQ is key. So I don't know if I answered the question completely. You know, I'll get back to the advice. The advice I would--I would give to folks is, you know, you want to position yourself with mentors who have been successful navigating this organization, you know? They haven't moved up into leadership positions by accident. There's something that they're doing right, and whether it's, you know, that they have a highly evolved sense of self or they have a really highly evolved ability to perceive social and emotional situations, you know, you want to find mentors who can actually coach you on how to navigate some of these situations 'cause they're gonna repeat themselves, you know? And if you get good at handling them, you know, I think that is what positions you to do well in this organization. Now, that doesn't change the fact that there's some messed up stuff that goes on out there, right? I mean, let's just be real. You know, we have to deal, as people as color, as the minority group in an organization, there are some folks who, you know, quite frankly may not care whether we succeed or not, right? And that's just the reality, and part of what we deal with I think is, you know, our ability to understand who's in the room. You know, maybe the position that they're holding in terms of, you know, does this person care about me as person or not? Does it matter, right? And then what do I do with that, right? So that's my emotional intelligence, right? My ability to be reflective, you know? My ability to notice my emotional self within a work situation, you know? My ability to evaluate those situations and really begin to notice patterns, right? And then if you notice the patterns, you might start to see some opportunities for you to do something different.Zach: So you've given advice around what people of color and underrepresented groups in Corporate America can do to really develop or continue to sharpen their emotional intelligence and their social IQ. I'm curious, what advice would you give to the C-Suite regarding emotional intelligence and those who seek to be more ethnically inclusive and more welcoming so that they can actually acquire or procure the talent that they're looking for from these ethnically diverse spaces?David: Yeah. That's a multifaceted conversation, right? I think, you know, leaders that are looking to be more inclusive, first of all you have to have a high degree of EQ, right? Your sense of self needs to be very, very strong. You also have to--and within that sense of self, I think it's understanding your intent. Like, what's my intention? You know, is it checking a box? Do I really believe that involving and having a diverse workforce is gonna be advantageous, not only to the things that I touch but to the broader organization? You know, that sense of self is critical, and I would offer something else. It's not just emotional intelligence, it's not just social intelligence, but there's this thing. I don't know if you've heard of this, but the empathy quotient too. Like, your ability to put yourself in the shoes of others, right? Your ability to really walk a mile in the shoes of somebody else, you know? That whole idea of active listening and understanding the intent with which someone is communicating to you, you know? What's the message behind the words? I think--you know, I'm not part of the C-Suite, you know? And I think anything that I'm offering is really just what I've observed in terms of what's really been successful for people looking to be more inclusive. You know, you've got to be awesome at problem solving, and I think the combination of those three things--you know, the social intelligence, the emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient--helps you solve problems, you know? You've got to provide and be a supportive communicator. I think you have to be able to be flexible and be able to communicate with different types of folk. That's just the bottom line. You've got to be confident, you know, truly in empowering people, you know? A to B is always gonna be A to B, but the road may look completely different than you thought, and when you're involving diverse populations in a workforce, you know, you have to believe that the road to get from A to B may be something different just based on the types of people that you get involved, you know? And, I mean, I think in terms of attracting folks to work in a situation, you know, where we work, in this corporate environment, you know, you have to do your best to provide an opportunity and to provide and create an environment where people can contribute and add value, and the only way that you can do that I think is if you have a high degree of not only how you lead, right, but the environment that you want to create, and you have to model that behavior, right? You've got to make sure that no matter what it is, whether it's problem solving, whether it's managing conflict, whether it's how you empower others, whether it's how you communicate, whether it's how you motivate people, you know, I think as a leader, modeling that kind of behavior, that inclusive behavior, and modeling the fact that you need to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, a high degree of social intelligence, a high empathy quotient, you know, that's what makes people want to work with you, right? You know this, Zach. People don't leave jobs. They leave people, right? So the work that you can do on yourself, you know, to become more self-aware, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, right? The work that you do to become and increase your emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient, your social IQ, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, and people are gonna want to work with you, you know? They're gonna want to be part of an organization, you know, especially if you're modeling that behavior.Zach: Man. David, this has been a great conversation, man. Before we wrap up, do you have any parting words and/or any shout outs?David: Wow, shout outs? You know what? Here's the thing. I want to give a big shout out to the A3 posse at Capgemini. Doing incredible work, and a shout out and an apology, right, that I am not more involved. It's one of my goals this year to make myself, as part of the senior leadership of the organization, a bit more present, but I notice and I pay attention, and it's a potent group. Anybody out there who's listening who's not part of A3, you definitely want to get involved because they are doing great things to not only represent within this broader organization but it's a great resource, and it's just nice to be able to have conversations at times with people who speak the same language, who are going through the same things, you know, as we are as people of color trying to navigate, you know, this corporate environment. And I also want to thank you, Zach. I think Living Corporate is a step in the right direction, you know? The more that we can start talking about these things, the more that we can start to talk about the stuff that matters to us as people of color, especially in this day and age, without getting too political. You know, we recognize the times that we live in, and so it's extremely important that we hunker down and that we empower ourselves, right? With the tools that we need, with the kind of support that we need. You know, surround ourselves with the mentors that we need so that we can succeed, you know? And so that we can thrive, and ultimately so that we can definitely survive. So thank you, Zach. I can't--you're doing great work, brother. I want you to keep it up.Zach: Man, I appreciate it, David. And absolutely, man. Shout out for those who are listening. A Cubed is an African-American employee resource group at Capgemini, a great resource for black folks to come together and really, to David's point, really a strong point of relation and community within the community. So definitely shout out to A3, shout out to A Cubed. Shout out to Janet Pope, who was on the show before. I know that she leads that group. And David, man, thank you again for the love, man. We want to make sure to have you back, and we appreciate it, dude. We'll talk to you soon.David: All right. Zach, thank you very much.Zach: All right, man. Peace.David: Peace.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. I really appreciated his candid tone and vulnerability. I also really appreciated his stories around facilitating and managing personalities as well. I'm just out here trying to manage myself [inaudible].Zach: Right. In my experience in working with David, it's amazing to even just see it in action. I appreciated his points around being reflective and being able to interpret emotions and move accordingly.Ade: Well, he talked about emotional and social intelligence being what helps you solve problems. That really resonated with me because in my own head I get really, really nervous about dealing with people or being at work and having the right answer, and I've been noticing that when I take a breath and think through how I feel as well as those around me, beyond the X's and O's, the zeroes and ones, I'm able to arrive at a solution that actually works. To me, that's the simplest hook for the why behind why emotional and social intelligence might be a focus. They help you solve problems, and who doesn't want to be good at solving problems? With that being said, unless you have any further thoughts, let's get into our Favorite Things. How do you feel?Zach: No, that's awesome. Let's do it. So my favorite thing right now has to be DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom. I was really excited when he announced the fact that he was--he was almost finished with it, and so I preordered it, and I've been waiting, and it dropped on my birthday, September 4th. So I'm, like--I'm just excited to read it. I haven't really gotten fully into it yet, but I finished the intro, and I'm loving what I'm reading so far, and I can tell already that it's a favorite.Ade: So I'm confused. You said September 4th. Do you mean Beyonce's birthday? [Sound Man throws in car slamming on its brakes effect]Ade: Beyonce? Her birthday?Zach: I mean my birthday, and listen, I've been on this earth long enough now to realize that, yes, it's B Day. I get it, but, you know, it's my birthday too, okay? Beyonce does not own the day.[car slams on its brakes again]Ade: She does, because as you said, it's B Day, not Z Day. Which, you know, cool. You can have, like, September 5th or something, but September 4th is B Day. So, like, I guess you can rent September 4th. It's fine. It's fine. We'll be nice.Zach: [laughs] Okay. We might have to subtitle this show (B?) Happy Z Day. That would be kind of funny. We might do that.[again]Ade: Why not B Day?Zach: [sighs] Why don't we go ahead and go to your favorite things? How about that?Ade: All right. All right, okay. I'm gonna stop frustrating you. All right, so my current favorite thing is this book called The Storied Life of A.J. Fikry. Now, it is purely a work of fiction. It is comedy and it is drama and it is a tragedy, and if you're the sort of person who likes an emotional rollercoaster with your literary works I certainly recommend that book. My second favorite thing, because I can never choose just one, is this, like, nifty invention called a water bottle. I've been training for a marathon again, and I don't know how much you know about training for marathons, but they suck. The training sucks, the marathon sucks. I don't know why I'm doing this. Somebody help me. But water bottles have been saving my life so far, so there's that upside. Yay.Zach: [laughs] Okay. Well, yeah, definitely shout out to the book, and shout out to water bottles, you know? My wife, she just recently toured Route 66.Ade: Aye!Zach: Yeah, and one thing I remember I told her--I was like, "Listen, make sure you have water," and she said, "I will in my water bottle." So yes, shout out to water and shout out to Favorite Things, and as a reminder, to see all of our favorite things, go to our website, living-corporate.com, and click Faves. You'll see all of our favorite things for the season right there. Make sure you go check it out.Ade: Yep. And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We're Living Corporate everywhere! That does it for us on this show. My name is Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with activist, educator, public speaker and host of Crooked Media's Pod Save the People DeRay Mckesson to talk about working while woke and his first book, "The Other Side of Freedom" that is available 9/4/18!About DeRayOrder DeRay's book herePod Save The PeopleCrooked MediaTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. It's Monday, September 3rd, the day before a few things drop. One, Beyonce's birthday. Two, my birthday. Three, Black Panther on Netflix, and last but certainly not least is DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom: The Case for Hope. About the book, Henry Louis Gates Jr. says "On the Other Side of Freedom reveals the mind and motivations of a young man who has risen to the foray of millennial activism through study, discipline, and conviction. His belief in a world that can be made better one act at a time powers his narratives and opens up a new view on the cost, consequences, and rewards of leading a movement. Now, I feel as if you've gotten to know the Living Corporate team this season. For those who know me, they know I'm a genuine admirer of DeRay's work. I love his podcast on Crooked Media called Pod Save the People. So shout out to Brittany, Sam, and Clint Smith III, or Clint Smith "Aye-aye-aye." For me and many folks in my generation, DeRay was the face of a new type of activism that was mobilized through social media. The honesty and, by direct correlation, courageousness of speaking truth to power on such accessible platforms was a major point of inspiration for Living Corporate. Because of this, I'm excited to tell y'all we actually got him on the show to talk about working as a socially-conscious person of color in Corporate America and about his journey in writing his book, The Other Side of Freedom: The Case of Hope. So what you're gonna hear next is an interview I had with DeRay. His book is also one of our Favorite Things, so make sure you check out the links on the show notes and our website, and make sure you preorder it. So while you're jamming to B-Day you could also be reading this book. See y'all on Friday. Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed before the break, we have DeRay Mckesson. DeRay, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?[Sound Man throws in cheers]DeRay: It's good to be here. I'm good. I'm good.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling a little bit about yourself?DeRay: Yeah. My name is DeRay Mckesson. I'm an activist, and I have a podcast called Pod Save the People. I used to be a teacher, and I'm committed to the work of social justice. Zach: I follow you on IG. You don't follow me, but it's cool. I get it. I saw a post you made about a note that you got from the FBI after they visited your home in 2016. Can you talk to us about the biggest impacts that purposed activism has had in your life?DeRay: Yeah, I think that--I think that one of the most powerful things about the protests for sure, and I think about when we were all on the street in 2014 in the early days of Ferguson and everything since is that it's helped empower [people who] didn't believe they had power before. I never would've [inaudible] before then. I just, like, didn't--I didn't think about that as a way to sort of force [inaudible], and now I would check on [inaudible] our government only exists [inaudible]--and we've seen over the last three years is people [inaudible] protest [inaudible] how the world can be better and what their role can be in making it better.Zach: So you're not a stranger in these federal or social media streets. In fact, you and I connected some time ago. I believe that we were able to make that connection because you're able to engage in topics around social equity in really courageous but still very approachable ways. You've mentioned in the past your work with Campaign Zero and of course the work that you're doing with Pod Save the People. Wonderful podcast. One of my--my favorite podcasts actually. And the things that you touch and that you curate, I think that--I think they have so much impact because they're so practical and they challenge people of color as well as non-people of color to engage and be part of the solution. Think about Living Corporate--and our audience is primarily people of color in the working world--are there any things that you believe middle-class or affluent people of color are not doing in mass but that could be done to support the movement and the work?DeRay: I don't know [inaudible]--and I'm gonna start from, like, a place of lack, but I think that where can all grow, especially as somebody who used to work in [inaudible] the school system of Baltimore, you know, which was one of the chiefs in my 50-people team and, you know, it's a billion-dollar organization is that always remembering that confrontation doesn't always look one way. So there are ways to show up in rooms where things happen that aren't about equity, aren't about justice, aren't really about our community, that don't focus on us and don't center us but should, and we can push and challenge, but it doesn't have to be a sit-down. It doesn't have to be a storm out of the room. It doesn't have to be a yell. I think about some of the meetings where I've been really successful it's, like, asking the really awful question, right? It's, like, not letting people off the hook and making them to do the cognitive work as approached to preaching to them. Like, those are things that we can do in all settings that are really powerful. The second is that the systems and structures are designed to drown out individuals and, like, make individuals believe they don't have power. That is, like, how the game is set up. What we can do is, like, remember that, like, people have a lot of--like, individuals, individuals who come together to form collectives like [inaudible]. Think about one parent who emailed in at the beginning of the school year when I was the chief human capitol who requested something very specific. She was the only parent we heard from. She was right, and if not for her email we wouldn't have redone this whole plan, but, like, she emailed it, and it was perfect, right? It wasn't about volume. It was about, like, the content, and people just don't know that. They don't realize that systems often take the feedback, but one of the reasons why they don't tell you they take the feedback is 'cause they don't want to deal with 10,000 of you. So that's that, and the third is that, like, you can learn all of these issues too. So I would say to most people, like, find an issue that matters to you that you believe in. Like, try to learn as much about it as possible because that will actually set you up to, like, think about problems and structures in people's lives and really in a powerful way.Zach: So continuing a little bit--'cause I want to talk a little bit more about people of color in these places, right? So I count myself as somewhat socially conscious. At the same time though I still work in structures that really weren't built for me, so let me ask you this. Do you think that there's a way to challenge the systems we're pushing up while still climbing within them? I ask because it seems counter-intuitive on its face to me. I say this as someone, like I said, in the work. I've had very explicit conversations with colleagues who respect Living Corporate's mission, but they're afraid to even kind of publicly support it because they think it's gonna mess their bag up 'cause they don't want to necessarily talk about those things. Like, what would you say to that?DeRay: Yeah. I don't know if I have anything new to say besides, like, knowing that confrontation doesn't always [inaudible]. Like I said, people often think about challenge as, like, some dramatic thing, but I've been in rooms with people I really--you know, I made a decision when somebody came in. I was like, "Even if you say no, can we talk this out and, like, think through it this way?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's talk it out," and, like, "Oh, I didn't see it that way." Like, I think that sometimes we think about challenging in the workplace as some grand statement. It just doesn't have to be like that. The outcome--we just need the outcome to be the outcome. So there are some meetings that are like--I just wouldn't let the question go. So I knew it was the wrong decision, but if I came out and said, like, "I think that you're making a dumb decision," the person would respond in a way that just was not--I wouldn't get the outcome. I would feel better, but I wouldn't get the outcome. So what I can do is say, like, "Hey, what if we play with this option? What if we do this option? Can we talk about options today?" Like, that's actually a way for me to push the thinking and, like, get to where I want, where there are some meetings where you just have to say, like, "No, we're not doing that," right? And, like, if you want to do it that way, then we need to go talk to this person. So, like, just knowing that there are ways to push and challenge, and everything doesn't have to look the same. Zach: You know, I've had some coworkers who will run up on me and show me a Facebook post or a racist article or something--the latest thing the president said and go, "Zach, that's so racist. That's so bad," or they'll even brag about, like, the latest protest they were a part of, but at the same time some of those same people might not necessarily feel comfortable speaking up when [inaudible] morning meetings or cursed out or disrespected in other ways. So certainly you have experience in building meaningful coalitions. What advice would you give to the everyday perhaps well-meaning, aspiring ally on how they can put empathy and allyship into practice?DeRay: Yeah. Whiteness is a shield, and they should use that shield in a way that, like, serves people. So, you know, it often [inaudible]. A lot of white people don't realize that. Like, you and I both know what it's like [to not be listened to and not be heard?]Zach: Right.DeRay: A lot of white people just, like, don't know. Like, they don't know what it's like to, like, literally not be listened to and not be heard. That's, like, a new thing. They aren't, like, ignored, right? So some of it is, like, helping people just see, you know? In classrooms, one of the things that we do is we sit in the back of classrooms and, like, we can tally up the number of positive to negative things that the teacher says, and that gives a sense of what's going on in the classroom. Same thing in board rooms and in meetings. We can tally, like, who gets called or [inaudible] power is working in a given space. So you've got to step into the discomfort, and there are moments when, like, you know that something's off, and again, like, confrontation doesn't always have to look the same. 'Cause you can say, like, "Oh, no, I wanted to hear you first." Like, you can share your space. You can share power. You can create space. You can create power. Like, I think there are a host of things that people can do that don't have to feel like that or even actually be [inaudible]. The impact is really powerful.Zach: No, I agree with that, and it's something that you've--again, you've reiterated it a few times, but I do think when we talk about the work or we talk about, again, kind of pushing up again these systems and things like that, we often think about something really combative or antagonistic, and it doesn't always have to be like that. That's something that kind of reminds me--like, a common thread in the things that you say, especially on Pod Save the People, that just the human element of it, right? Like, actually being able to build that connection. Like you said, giving up space for that person. "Hey, I wanted you to talk first." You're doing a lot there without you having to necessarily be in any way negative, quote unquote. So let's do this. Let's talk about The Other Side of Freedom. It happens on Beyonce and I's birthday, September 4th. So air horns for that.[Sound Man obliges]Zach: But why a book? Why now? And what do you want people to take from it?DeRay: Yeah. So I was--you know, I've been reflecting on all of the places I've been, and I wanted to share them because I've been to a lot of places. I've been in the street in a lot of cities. I've been a teacher. [inaudible]. I think about, like, what are the lessons? Like, what are the [themes?] This was my attempt to look at all of the stories and then say, "Here are the tools that I took out of them." [inaudible] is, like, a sermon that's called [inaudible] Story. I loved the title, but I didn't know what it meant, and I listened to it, and he talks about sometimes you can tell your story [inaudible] so all you see is the pain not the purpose. I'm at a point now where I can think about the big lessons and themes that I got. [inaudible]Zach: So it seems like book writing is a lot of work, right? Like, I've seen your posts. You know, I've seen your posts on Instagram. You've posted the various edits and revisions that the book went through, and then you went to the copying center, and it just seemed like a lot to do. In your journey of writing your book, is there anything you learned about yourself?DeRay: I learned a ton of things. You know, some things--I spend most of my time writing online. Like, writing on Twitter. [inaudible] all the way out, you know, in essay for the reader and the writer, and I needed to process a lot of things, so it was important to me about writing [inaudible], and I had to process a lot of feelings and emotions. And writing about my mother. I talk about my mother a lot, but I've never written about in this way so I needed to do--like, I was pushed in my own personal space. So that was really healthy. And, like, things about the essay on the police. It's, like, there's a lot of research we [never put anywhere?] I want it put somewhere. So yeah, the book was really a growing experience.Zach: DeRay, this has been a great discussion, man, and I want to thank you again for coming to the show. Before we again, do you have any shout outs?DeRay: Please buy the book. I'm excited. Have conversations with people about the book, and we have a lot more to do. Zach: Absolutely, yeah. So the book is called The Other Side of Freedom. DeRay, we'll make sure that we put it in the show notes, and then we'll also be listing it on our website as a Favorite Thing so people can make sure that they have no excuse not to get it. Thank you so much for your time, man.DeRay: Thank you so much.Zach: All right, peace.DeRay: Bye-bye.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with Rod, 1/2 of The Black Guy Who Tips to talk about his experiences as a black man in Corporate America and hear his advice for engaging your own creative outlets.Length: 19:31Host: ZachThe Black Guy Who Tipshttp://www.theblackguywhotips.com/Rodhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeKarenhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, look, yes, we've talked about B-Sides before, but remember, every episode is somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random, looser shows in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--yes, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. If you wanna know what I mean by more lit, Sound Man gon' drop some air horns right here. Sound Man, give 'em to me. [Sound Man obliges]Zach: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Now, listen, sometimes, you know, we have discussions as a follow-up to the regular full-time shows just with the hosts. Sometimes it's one host having an extended monologue, and sometimes we actually have a special guest. Yes, that's right, a special guest, and today is no different. We actually have Rod, A.K.A. half of the show from The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: Hey, thanks for having me, man.Zach: Hey, man, thank you. Man, thank you for being here. Now, look--look, look, look. Rod is an entrepreneur, a comedian, writer, and most prominently half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Rod, along with his lovely wife Karen Morrow, A.K.A. SayDatAgain on social media, record out of North Carolina where they talk about everything you want to hear about. With that being said, welcome to the show, Rod. How you doin', man?Rod: Hey, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you reaching out.Zach: Man, I appreciate you responding, bro. And it's funny, you talk about Twitter fame--you talk about celebrity and, like, being famous, right? And I was about to make, like, a "you famous" joke, but I recognize that some people have various levels of sensitivity about that, so. [laughs] For those of us who don't know you, man, explain the title of The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: The Black Guy Who Tips is a comedy podcast. The title basically started from--there's so much anti-blackness in the service industry towards black, like, people as patrons, and my wife and I, we both co-host this podcast. My wife and I, we both used to be waiters as well. During all this time as waiters and stuff, you know, we faced--we were on the other side. We got to see what waiters and companies think of black patrons, and it's not cool, you know? And a lot of 'em have racist attitudes, and then they go "Black people don't tip," you know? They treat us like trash and they expect us to not just tip but basically to overtip to compensate for the fact that we're black. Now, the original title is from a blog I used to write. It was a comedy blog, and I called myself The Black Guy Who Tips because I was like, "I'm sick of people saying black people don't tip." So if you're saying that, you know at least one black person who tips if you read my blog. It's me, and I know I'm not--I know I'm not alone. I'm not--you know, I'm not the only one.Zach: Absolutely not, man. Listen, I also tip, okay? And I always at least tip 15%, okay? Now--Rod: Yeah. I overtip, and I wish I could get that out of my system because--I overtip mostly because I used to be a server, but part of it is the black thing that hangs over all black people where we feel like we're always representing everyone, and it's not fair that--you know, 'cause I've done--I've been in situations where I'm like, "Man, this guy was terrible. What a horrible waiter. I'm only gonna give him 20% because I am sick--" You know? Like, I should just not tip this dude. Like, he was terrible, but for some reason--I hope I get over that hang-up one day, man.Zach: It's funny, right, because I actually have a friend, and he worked at a Pappadeaux's out here in Houston, and so--and he's a white brother. So what he would do is--he said when people would come in and they'd be black people, they wouldn't say, "Oh, we got black people over there," they would use code language. Rod, you wanna know what the code language they used to say, "Oh, we got some black folks over here?"Rod: I hope it wasn't Canadians.Zach: It was Canadians, dawg.Rod: Aw! See? I've been on the other side. I've dealt with it. It's the worst. Zach: [laughs] Yes, man. They be like, "Yeah, we got some Canadians over there." I'm curious, before you started The Black Guy Who Tips Live and before you started doing that full-time, did you have any moments, while you working in Corporate America, that you were like, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before," and I ask because we're coming off a full episode with Michael Williams, who's a financial banking executive, and he was talking about his stories and his experiences in Corporate America, and I'm just curious, man, do you have any similar stories about like, "Wow, it's clear that you have just never worked with a black man before."Rod: Uh, yeah. I have a few. You know, I worked in Corporate America for--oh, man, since I was 16 I think. I was doing internships and also during the summer working as a waiter and stuff. So yeah, I have plenty of stories. One quick one, I had a manager later in my career, like, one of the last managers I ever had. I had a manager who was a white dude from, like, New Jersey. Pretty--you know, a guy that you would see generally as a pretty progressive white man for an older white man. Like, I never felt he was overtly racist, but he was very, like, liberal racist.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Rod: And so he would do this thing where we'd get in a meeting and--I don't know if you've ever been in a meeting like this, but some white dudes, like, really dramatize their anger. Like, anger is their thing at work.Zach: Yeah.Rod: You know, he wasn't angry towards anyone in the room. He was never rude or mean to anyone. I never saw him snap, but he would do stuff like be angry at a situation. So he'd be like, "Oh, and this," you know, "F-word." Not the slur, but, like, you know.Zach: Right, right, right.Rod: "This mother F-word would do this, and this son of a B would do that," and I'm like, "Okay." So he's angry, right, and he's frustrated, and he has that room to do that, and so we'd be at a meeting and then, like, if I were to be like, "Well, you know, I was working with this vendor, and they did this, and I just don't understand why they would do that because essentially it's gonna cost them extra money, and I'm trying to convince them to do blank, and it'll help everyone out." He would, like, put his hand on my shoulder like, "Calm down, Rod. It's okay." You know? "Don't be too upset." I'm like, "I'm not upset." He's like, "Yeah. It's okay, big fella." I'm like, "What is happening right now?" Like, I'm gonna get upset, and it took a few of those meetings before I realized, "Oh, he's kind of, like, afraid of me in a way that's not--" Like, it makes me uncomfortable because it puts--he's my manager, but he's putting me in a position where I'm, like, an aggressor and I'm not, yet he walks around all day spouting off, you know, cuss words and all this stuff and it's okay. So yeah, I was like, "This guy just doesn't know black people, I guess."Zach: Man--so look, let's trade a couple stories until we run out. Let's see how awkward we can get with some of these stories about just working while black, okay? So here I--so I heard yours, so I'ma match yours with this one. So this was before I got into consulting, right? And I was working--I was working in the energy space. It was my birthday. So my boss wasn't there for my birthday, and to your point, she was also a very liberal white woman. She would--I think by all other accounts you would consider her progressive, right? So I walk into my cubicle, and I see, like, this shadow. Like, I see, like, a shadow, like, in my cubicle. I'm like, "Who is sitting at my desk?" Now, Rod, I then walk into my cubicle, and I see this big, inflated, light-skinned monkey in my chair.Rod: No way.Zach: Yes way. So then I see the monkey, and I'm like, "What is this?" So then I turn the monkey around, and it has a little--like, a little necklace thing on it, like a lanyard, and it says "Happy birthday, Zach."Rod: Wow. Dude, that's--that's insane.Zach: So I look at it, and I'm like, "What?" So then I take it and--so, you know, again, my boss isn't there, so first--of course I take a picture. I gotta take a picture. I send it to my parents, and then I take it and I put the monkey at her desk 'cause she's not there. So then the next day, right, she goes, "Hey, did you see my monkey?" "Did you see the monkey yet? Did you see your birthday present?" And I said, "I did. Yeah, that was really disappointing and inappropriate," right? So, not that it would be a surprise to you at all, I then got turned into I have the attitude problem, I'm overly sensitive--Rod: Mm-hmm.Zach: Right? She starts crying, tearing up. I'm like, "What is going on? You put a monkey at my desk, right?" And it's just like, "Wow." Like, "You clearly never considered," you know? And, you know, she came out later and was like, "You know, I like monkeys." Like, "Monkey is, like, my favorite animal," blah blah blah blah, and I'm like, "Okay." I mean, that's fine for you personally, right? But for you to then give that to somebody, and such a big one too, right? It wasn't even like a small gesture, dawg. It was huge. It was--so I'm 6'2", so it wasn't as big as me, but it was a big monkey, man. Like, it was big enough to when I walked around the corner I thought--I thought someone was sitting at my desk. It was crazy, man. So let me ask you something, 'cause, you know, I know you--what would you have done in that situation? I just want to--like, off the cuff, what would've been your reaction?Rod: Well, see, here's the thing. I'm not very reactionary, and I'm probably, believe it or not, one of the more patient people most people know. I probably would've not been too moved to anger or offense or shock, but I would've taken that monkey out of my cubicle for sure, put it somewhere, like, in a car or something, like, somewhere away from me, and then I would've pulled her to the side and been like, "Listen, I don't know how this goes with you and other black people, but don't do that again towards me, and you probably should never do that again with another black person because my assumption is you're not aware but this can be perceived as racist, and this is why," you know? And, you know, my general responses that I've had from checking white people on racism has not been one of too much animosity, but mostly because I'm just not--I'm very rarely triggered to anger, so for the most part I haven't had to deal with a fragile white person breaking down crying and stuff, but yeah, I mean, you did the right--there's nothing you did wrong, and there's nothing--you know, like I said, I can only hope that that would be the response is that they'd be like, "My bad," you know what I mean? 'Cause--I mean, what else do I want at that point? If I don't want you fired, then I just want a "My fault, playa. Won't do it again," and then I'm cool. It'll become a funny story that I remember and tell people or whatever, but yeah, I don't--you know, I probably would handle it pretty even-keel, probably wouldn't have went to HR even though I would've had every right to. I'm just not that kind of person really.Zach: You transitioned from, you know, working for somebody else to really building--so I don't want to be hyperbolic and say an empire, right? Or a dynasty and be corny, but you've built something for yourself. Like, you and your wife of course, with the help of your wife, and shout out to the wives out there. I mean, my wife, she's not on my podcast, but she definitely supports me and helps me and holds me down as I'm doing all of this stuff, but, you know, what advice would you give to people who are actively in Corporate America, black and brown folks who are trying to navigate, especially if they're trying to navigate and they're thinking about ways to find another avenue outside of working a 9-to-5.Rod: Yeah, okay. Man, there's so much I can say. I'll start with--first, in my Corporate America stint where I got laid off twice in the span of the, like, four years I was doing the podcast while working--and maybe it was 5, but either way--the podcast I always treated like I would treat if I had a second job. Like, I made sure to make the time and the preparation, and I treated it in many ways like a full-time job before it was a full-time job, so by that I mean it was not a hobby. Now, there's nothing wrong with a podcast as a hobby. There's nothing wrong with anything as a hobby. We need--especially as black people, we need outlets outside of corporate structures, specifically corporate structures that are encapsulated, white spaces. So, you know, you always have these voices inside that might not get out, and you need to feed that voice 'cause it'll die if you let it. Zach: Right.Rod: So for me I'll say look, work on your craft as if you're already doing it full-time to a certain extent. Be professional, you know? Think about your sound quality. Think about the time commitment. Consistency is key. These are all boring things I'm telling you, but the boring things are what--the boring things is basically Mr. Miyagi making you wash his car and sand his bench, but then when you become--when you make that transition into trying to monetize it, you already know, you know, wax on wax off, and that's what keeps it working. That's what makes it easy, the basics. So yeah, learn your craft, learn your tools, right? You learn your microphones that you use, how to get the best sound out of it. Your internet setup, how to get your best communication when you want to have guests. You're gonna have to learn, you know, your equipment and internet hosting things, you know? Like, what are the differences on sites? All that stuff. Everything is so Google-able at this point. YouTube has so many tutorials. I use Audacity to record. It's a basic, free software. I still use it to this day.Zach: Same here, yeah. For sure.Rod: Right, and I know people that would pay, like, hundreds and thousands of dollars for rigs, and you're like--then they hit me up, "How'd you get that sound?" I'm like, "Oh, Audacity," and they hit up--you know? So yeah, there's plenty of ways, plenty of paths, and then the most thing that I would want you to remember from coming from a Corporate America background where they really do a job on our brains of trying to smush us all into these cubicles and these boxes and this linear thinking of "All of us should think the same way. Don't think outside of the box. Don't be too creative," right? When you're in your personal space and you're creating something from scratch for yourself, make it for you. Make it as personal as you would like. I made the podcast I would love to have heard when I was working. I made the podcast that was gonna be with me five days a week and talk about topics that were random but could be comedic, could be serious. I made the podcast that was gonna, like, make me not feel like a crazy person in a corporate structure where you go to work and some of your people that you work with voted for Trump. Some of the people you work with, you know, you may be the only black person they know, you know? But I wanted to make a show for black and brown people all over the globe where they didn't feel alone for a couple hours a day or whatever, so they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, so you saw that too, and that was crazy to you as well. Yeah, okay, cool. You know, this is like sitting at the lunch table again," and many podcasts have done that for me as well as a listener, working and working for myself. Those are, like, the basic things I would say.Zach: Man, that's dope, Rod. I appreciate it, man. I'm curious, man, before we wrap up--first of all, I have a random, unrelated question. Do you see yourself creating another video on social media that has as much vitriol as that Kit Kat video?Rod: [laughs] I don't think I could do that if I tried. I don't even know--I have no idea what goes viral. There's another video of me eating (Talenti?) where I smoked it like a heroin spoon.Zach: Yeah, I saw that. [laughs]Rod: Yeah, and now--and for some reason that never one goes truly viral, but I'm like, "That's the most creative one I ever did."Zach: That one was wonderful.Rod: Yeah. The Kit Kat one was just me being--I just thought it would be funny, and I have several other videos of--I had one where I tried to--I can't remember. Oh, I tried to--[laughs] I'm sorry. I tried to snort candy corn.Zach: [laughs]Rod: [laughs] It was so ridiculous, but that one didn't get picked up. So hey, man, I have no idea what will make people mad. I'm not trying to make 'em mad, but boy, did that one make 'em mad. Zach: So beyond the implication of, like, you, like, actually, like, harming yourself, it'd be really funny if you melted down a Hershey's bar and, like, injected it between your toes.Rod: Right. [laughs] You should've heard the idea board that I've just thrown at my wife over the, like--"You know what I should do? I should take a Kit Kat, and I'ma put it in some soup or something," and she's just like, "Don't do that." I'm like, "You right. You right."Zach: [laughs] Man, I shared that video with my wife. I shared that video of the Kit Kat with my wife. She was like, "Oh, I'm just so offended." Dawg, she was so mad. [laughs]Rod: People were watching it like I, like, hurt a small child or something like that. They're like *gasps* "Why would you do that?" I'm like, "It's just a candy bar. You can eat it how you want."Zach: You also dunked on 'em at the end when you said, "Are you mad?" [laughs]Rod: [laughs] And they were mad. Who knew? They were really mad, man. I thought we'd all have a laugh, but we did not.Zach: Any shout outs? Any at all. Any shout outs you have at all.Rod: I mean--well, you know, obviously my wife Karen. Could not do The Black Guy Who Tips without her.Zach: Yes, shout out to Karen. Air horns for Karen, yes.Rod: Ironically, like, honestly, the show would not be named The Black Guy Who Tips, but she did not--she was not sure she would make a good co-host, which anybody that has listened to our show is like, "What?"Zach: That's crazy, straight up.Rod: Like, I don't feel--like, I don't even take it as offense anymore. It's like, "I know nobody comes for me. They're coming for Karen, and then I'm just out there throwing alley-oops and letting her dunk over people." So yeah, it's that, but it would be probably The Rod & Karen Show, which may not be nearly as--would have gotten it the same traction, so maybe it helped out even though she wasn't trying to. Yeah, that would be the--obviously all the podcasts I listen to and all the podcast friends and family that we've established over the years, and black podcasters, podcasters of color in general, you know? We out here. Our voices are important. Don't give up, man. Just keep making the show for you. Don't look at other people's race. Run your race, and, you know, try to be better every time you take the mic. That's the best, realest advice I can give.Zach: Man, Rod, we appreciate it. That does it for us here on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so if you can spare a dollar a month--yes, just a dollar--to support content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America, show us some love. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Zach. You've been listening to Rod, A.K.A. Rodimus Prime, A.K.A. half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Go ahead, shout 'em out one last time, Rod.Rod: TheBlackGuyWhoTips.com. Find us, okay? You can go on Twitter at TBGWT. You can follow me on Twitter at RodimusPrime, and drop the air horns right now.[Sound Man drops 'em]Zach: There it is. [laughs] Peace. Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this B-Side, Ade sits down with Christa Clarke, entrepreneur, public speaker, project manager and event hostess about the #MyMentalMatters episode.To connect with Christa:instagram.com/heychristaclarkewww.freeingshe.comTo learn more about Cubicles to Cocktailsinstagram.com/cubiclestococktailswww.cubiclestococktails.comRelated blog posts Christa referenced and/or wrote:www.freeingshe.com/blog/positive-affirmations-dont-work-for-everyonehttps://itsallyouboo.com/escaping-a-toxic-work-environment/Mandela Dixon's Mental Health + Workplace Instagram Posthttps://www.instagram.com/p/BmDhNTrgZs3/?taken-by=mandelash TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, y'all? This is Ade with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a B-Side. So if you've been here for a while you might know what a B-Side is, but in case this is your first episode I'm going to give you a quick intro. So for our new folks listening, B-Sides are much more informal shows that we have in-between our larger episodes. These are much less structured and often more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're conversations between us, the hosts. Sometimes they're extended monologues--I'm looking at you, Zach--or sometimes they're a chat with a special guest, and today we have a really special guest with us, Christa Clarke. Now, Christa is the founder and chief creator of FreeingShe, which is her lifestyle blog, as well as Cubicles and Cocktails event series. Christa's also a project manager in the health care industry and a wife based out of Houston. She's a self-confessed blerd y'all I know rock with who loves technology and health sciences. She also happens to be a huge lover of hand-crafted cocktails, (which?) shout out to you, and a wine enthusiast, pairing wine to fit her food and her mood. You sounded like my kind of lady. Christa, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Christa: [laughs] I'm doing great. How are you?Ade: I am wonderfully cramped. [laughs] Hanging out in my closet. Okay, guys. For those of you listening, I happen to be recording from my closet today so that I can increase the audio quality of Living Corporate. Never say I've never done anything outside of my comfort zone. So Christa, I'm here with my cup of coffee, and I just want to know - did you listen to our latest episode? What'd you think?Christa: I did, yeah. So, like, the latest episode, I thought it was, like, a very great discussion, and also an excellent resource for communities of color when it comes to starting on a mental health wellness journey. One of the things that, like, particularly stood out to me in the conversation too was Evelyn from the Internets' "Calling In While Black." [laughs]Ade: Yep. Oh, God. [laughs]Christa: I thought the video, like, was so funny, but it was so truthful. I know, like, after Trump was elected I honestly did not want to go to work. [laughs] And then also, you know, just when new cases of police brutality, you know, pop up, like, I just--it just, you know, causes me deep distress, as well as, like, a lot of community members. And so, like, I totally related to the video. I know one of the things that I do in particular though when cases of police brutality or anything that's, like, systemic racism or sexism against marginalized communities pop up, I try not to share the videos, and I don't watch the videos because as a person of color myself, as a woman of color, I don't feel that I need to actually, like, do that in order for me to action and just--the viewing for me actually causes deep trauma, and so I just avoid viewing, but I just--you know, I just go ahead and take the action anyway. So that's one of the things that I do encourage people of color to not do is to not share those videos or watch them if it does cause you intense pain.Ade: Yeah. So I hear you about, you know, not sharing those videos because--I think I made a very intentional decision, particularly after the Walter Scott shooting, and I remember very, very clearly sitting and making the decision not to watch it because I had watched every video before that, and it had seemed as though bearing witness was the least I could do for these people, but after each video I realized--I even listened to the 911 recordings in the Trayvon Martin case, and I realized that it wasn't doing me any good. Being in that space, being in that mental space, just was not helpful. It wasn't helping me. It wasn't helping my community. It wasn't helping anybody around me, and so I had to take responsibility and take ownership of the course of my mental health, and that was the overarching theme of that conversation for me. And I take my mental hygiene seriously, so much so that I wrote a list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday to be really intentional about my self-care in this new chapter of my life. Allow me to ask you this. What intentional decisions have you made for the sake of your mental wellness?Christa: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I will say, like, you know, just--some of, like, the easier things to talk about is that I--you know, I participate in yoga. I do yoga and I meditate. I actually meditate in an office. I have a sign where it's like, "Meditation In Progress," and I tape that to my door so that I'm not disturbed. And, you know, I also read devotionals and have some scriptures that are my favorite, so they're, like, easy to refer back to. I use scriptures in place of affirmations because personally for me a lot of affirmations--I feel like they just don't work, and sometimes they make me feel worse. Like, there's actually, like, research out there that shows that affirmations don't work for everybody and that there's--you know, there's a process you should go through in order to get to the point where, you know, looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, "I am a confident, beautiful black woman," you know? [laughs] Like, actually like [inaudible], and you actually believe it. And so for me I just--I wrote a blog post about it called I Thought Affirmations Were A Key To Success - I Was Wrong, and that just explains, like, my whole thought process behind why I personally don't use affirmations and why I personally lean on biblical scriptures. I also avoid caffeine, and for caffeine I find that caffeine triggers anxiety in me, especially when I'm dehydrated, which, you know, when I'm too--when I'm too busy, sometimes I do forget to drink water, and so I--that's really hard 'cause, you know, in Corporate America, I feel like caffeine and corporate environments, like, they just go hand-in-hand, right? You know, your mid-afternoon coffee break. Ade: Right.Christa: So I don't have those, but I would say, like, the biggest thing for me was actually, like, leaving what I considered personally a toxic work environment. Mandela Dixon--she started Founder's Gym--she posted recently on Instagram about her experience having anxiety attacks in her office and her workplace, and she said through reflection she realized that her growth was, like--she felt that her growth was being stunted, her creativity was blocked, and that her value was being taken for granted, and when I read those words, like, I totally related to that. At a previous job, I really felt very, very truly that all three of those things were happening to me, and it was causing a lot of tension at home with my husband, a lot of--by the end of my time, by the end of my tenureship there, I was feeling sick all of the time. Like, GI issues, bad sleep, and--and, you know, just, like, bouts where sometimes I would just come home and cry or I'd come home and be really fatigued. I know I've had a few anxiety attacks actually in that workplace, and mainly I feel like it came from a place of me trying to be strong and trying to, you know, just continue to work and deliver great quality work and not putting myself first, and so I ended up contacting EAP, which is Employee Assistance Program, after one incident that just left me emotionally disturbed, to find a therapist and get connected to a therapist. And so from there, you know, we kind of explored, like, what are my options? Do I learn coping mechanisms to not let the stress get to me and let it drive me to the point where I'm, like, in the office feeling like--literally feeling like I'm dying, like I can't breathe, you know? I'm so nauseated and dizzy. Or is my--is my option, best choice for myself, is for me to leave the environment? And for me the decision was to leave. So I--you know, I got really serious about my job search, and I just, you know, kept on praying. I really enjoyed the work that I was doing at my old position, but, you know, for me, I just kept on praying, "God, I just want a better environment. God, I just want to feel as if I'm working for a boss who values me and wants to see me succeed," and I didn't talk to him about what the job would be. I didn't talk to him about the compensation. And so finally when a door was opened, I was looking at entering a brand new field in the health care industry that I've never touched. Like, I've done entrepreneurship, I've done clinical operations, and this is, like, you know, academia now for medical school. So I was also looking at a pay cut. [laughs] So I wasn't expecting that, and so that was a very--you know, a very difficult decision to make, but, you know, no amount of money--and I know this sounds so cliche, but no amount of money is, like, worth your mental health and worth your sanity. And so, you know, I took that leap of faith and I left, and the first--the entire first week of my new job, I was actually having anxiety attacks in that office. So that's, like, how much toxicity, like, has built up in my system. My body was, like, still expelling that in the new office. And at first I thought it was just the fluorescent lights causing me to be, you know, dizzy and nauseous in the workplace, but now they don't bother me. And so, like, in reflection I realize, "Wow, that was just, like, me having [inaudible] episodes of anxiety that was being triggered from that old workplace," and how [inaudible], but yeah. I think that was, like--you know, that was definitely the biggest decision that I've ever made in terms of protecting my mental wellness.Ade: Yeah. That is huge. I think the idea of putting yourself first, of centering your whole self, your mental health especially, is just such a huge deal because I know so many people who are hustlers. Like, it's never going to be about "Well, what is most important to me is my mental health, and everything else comes second," right? It's "All right, but who's gonna pay these bills though?" Right? And I think part of those difficult decisions and the difficult conversations that we have to have in our professional communities as people of color is that the world won't end if you take that pay cut. The world won't end if you opt to walk away from people, places, and things that don't serve you, right? And if you are honestly in search for what your best self is, what your greatest good is, then it can never be positions and places or people, bosses in particular who reduce you, who shrink you, who are just in general not good for your mental health. But with all that said, I just want to pivot quickly to talk about FreeingShe, your lifestyle blog, and Cubicles to Cocktails because--I mean, I'm interested. I mean, I know that I'm in D.C., but if you're ever coming out this way I just want you to know that I need a ticket. [laughs]Christa: For sure. [laughs] Awesome. So yeah, FreeingShe is my lifestyle blog. I started FreeingShe back in--around November, December 2016, and it started, once again, from a place of--I just felt that my creativity was blocked. I felt so blah around that, you know, that [inaudible] of my life, and I wanted a place where I could express my creativity, or actually to restart exercising my creativity, as well as provide career resources and career perspectives on how to be--how to be success-minded, but how to also be well behind--how to stay well behind your ambition for women of color. And so I started the blog as well as a meet-up group, and so we were meeting monthly, me and the women who would come out, and we were having just really great conversations, Q&A sessions. We would talk about books and articles that we read and just--you know, we had just really formed that community, but the meet-up group eventually started morphing and transforming into something bigger where now it's, like, full-fledged events. So bringing in panelists, having wellness days where we can go do yoga and then have girl talk afterwards instead of partaking, for instance, in Black Friday festivities. So let's do something productive for ourselves. And so one day I'm at happy hour, and I'm, like, thinking to myself, "Wow, I really enjoy cocktails," but I'm also, like, very career-driven, and when I'm at happy hour I, like, really feel like I'm at this equilibrium. I'm, like, being the most authentic. Even if the conversation is about career, I'm still completely enjoying it. And so, you know, as women, especially women of color, we're often--if we're in a traditional workplace in Corporate America, the environment is sometimes sterile, often times sterile. It's very white, very masculine, and it can even be hostile towards us. And so we kind of, like, find ourselves shrinking away from being able to express ourselves in a way that we feel is authentic. We find that there is, like, a lack of outlets for us to have authentic conversations or even conversations that are a little bit more intimate as far as being able to move forward in the career--up the career ladder or being able to connect in a way that we feel is genuine to our coworkers. And so, you know, Cubicles to Cocktails came from a place of intention where I wanted to create an environment where women of color are able to, like--[inaudible]--let me dial back some. Like, imagine drinking a glass of wine or enjoying a very, very well-crafted hand-crafted cocktail. Your sensory--it's, like, a full sensory experience. What are you listening to? Who are you talking to? What does your environment around you look like? How does the drink look? How does it smell? How does the glass feel in your hand? You know? And so I kind of come from planning those events where I want it to be a full sensory experience of us being authentic, being able to be boldly ambitious, being able to embrace what makes us unique as well as being able to invest in our careers and our lives. And so the Cubicles to Cocktails series is just really fun, but it's, like, a really fun way to come back and to just embrace the fact that you're a success-minded career woman of color.Ade: Can I just say that, number one, you are a perfectionist. I can hear it in the level of detail and the level of attention you paid to that entire experience, and I love it. [laughs] Like, I love the passion behind it, and I just can tell that you enjoy what you do. You enjoy one cocktails, but two also owning every aspect of your life, and I think that's a beautiful thing. But before we get out of here, do you have any final shout outs? Any parting words? Any words for the people? How you feelin'?Christa: Yes, right. Definitely. So I just want to give major shout outs and props to you and the Living Corporate team. I think--you know, I listen to NPR and public radio all of the time, and there was definitely a lack of this narrative surrounding minority communities or marginalized communities in traditional workplaces, so Corporate America and more corporate-like environments, and so just to hear our point of view being reflected out there is just such an incredible thing, and it makes me so happy, and so I'm really excited to see the growth of Living Corporate.Ade: Thank you.Christa: Yeah, you're welcome. And as far as final words, you know, people can connect with me over on Instagram. I'm pretty active on Instagram. My Instagram name is HeyChristaClarke, and to follow the event series Cubicles to Cocktails they could also connect on Instagram @CubiclestoCocktails. But thank you so much, Ade, for having me. Ade: Awesome. Most certainly, and please pop up with, like, an event in D.C. Know that I'll be there rocking out. Christa: Nice. [laughs]Ade: [laughs] Well, that does it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram at Living Corporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so if you can spare a dollar a month to sponsor content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America, go ahead and show us some love. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show or some experiences you'd like to share, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Ade, and you've been here listening to Christa, founder of FreeingShe and Cubicles to Cocktails. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, we discuss the topic of Mental Wellness in Corporate America and it's particular impact within black and brown professionals. Dr. Tobi Odunsi and PhD Candidate, Nonye Nwosu-Kanu.Dr. Tobi Odunsi:https://www.instagram.com/whereistobi/Nonye Nwosu-KanuReferenced research during the show:Calling in Blackhttps://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/black-pain-gone-viral-racism-graphic-videos-can-create-ptsd-like-traumahttps://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/minority-mental-health-statistics_us_57a4c099e4b021fd98787185https://www.stress.org/workplace-stress/http://neurocosmopolitanism.com/neurodiversity-some-basic-terms-definitions/http://fortune.com/2014/12/16/brain-differences-autism-workplace-diversity/https://www.fastcompany.com/40421510/what-is-neurodiversity-and-why-companies-should-embrace-itMental Wellness Resources:Open Path Therapy Initiative http://www.apa.org/http://www.abpsi.org/Insight Timer Mental Health First AidMental Wellness Podcasts:Therapy for black girlsWith that being saidThe Affirm PodcastBlack in Therapy PodcastMelanin and Mental HealthBlack Girl in OmMental Matters PodcastTRANSCRIPTLatricia: At the time of this recording, we received recent news that handbag designer Kate Spade and celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain both committed apparent suicide. These tragic deaths have increased awareness and open conversations about the risk associated with mental health illnesses. The CDC says suicide rates have gone up in almost every state since 1999. Suicide is one of the top causes of death in the United States, and a majority of those who died by suicide didn't have a mental health condition but suffered from things like relationships, financial stress, physical and mental health problems, as well as substance abuse. If we dig a little further into the details and look at people of color, we find that mental health illnesses among people of color are similar with those in the general population. However, disparities exist in regard to mental health care services that contribute to people of color not receiving proper support or treatment in order to feel better. Researchers found that black and Hispanic young people are less able to get mental health services than white children and young adults. This happens despite the fact that rates of mental health illnesses are generally consistent across ethnicity, according to a report from Kaiser Health. 62% of non-Hispanic black individuals will experience a major depressive episode, but only a small percentage will actually seek mental health care. Suicide rates among Native-American women have nearly doubled within the last decade. First and second-generation Hispanics are significantly more likely to exhibit symptoms of depression than other immigrants. Additionally, Latino adolescents who experience discrimination related to stress are more likely to experience anxiety, depression, and issues with sleep, according to research conducted by faculty members at New York University. Black and Latinos are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, even though they show symptoms at the same rate as white people. Undiagnosed ADHD on the other hand, particularly its high association with risky behavior, drug use, and depression, can even be deadly. All of these data points about mental health disparities experienced by people of color are only compounded by the reality that the workplace is also a source of stress for a majority of Americans according to multiple studies, such as the American Institute of Stress. So if people of color are generally less likely to have access to quality mental health care services and are also in environments where the average person is often stressed, what can be done to better support mental wellness? My name is Latricia, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about mental wellness in the workplace and what it looks like for people of color to pursue and maintain mental wellness.Latricia: This is such an important topic. A common theme that I found while doing some of the research on this topic is that we start to see racial and ethnic disparities when it comes to access to mental health as early as adolescence, and these disparities often become exacerbated over time, so it's no surprise when people of color transition into adulthood and there are significant disparities in the severity of their mental health condition that impact their experiences in the workplace.Zach: It's interesting that you bring up adolescence. I had never really thought about the impact of untreated conditions people are usually diagnosed with during childhood, such as autism and ADHD.Latricia: Right. When we do actually talk about mental health, which isn't often enough, we primarily focus on psychiatric conditions such as anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and we often leave out neurodevelopmental conditions such as ASD, which stands for autism spectrum disorder, and ADHD. Zach: I think it's important for us to discuss a broad spectrum of mental health conditions so that we can raise awareness and understanding about the diversity of mental health conditions and ways we can be more inclusive when it comes to making sure everyone has access to the care that they need to manage their mental well-being, you know?Latricia: I totally agree, and on the topic of access, as we were doing some of the research and planning for the show I thought about my own engagement with mental health resources, and I realized that I haven't really been as engaged in this space as I could have been. I mean, I'm working in Corporate America. I have access to quality care, but when I do go through those bouts of depression or anxiety, I kind of just work through it and assume, you know, "This is just gonna go away." I've never thought, "Maybe this is the time for me to seek a mental health provider and find out, you know, are there other ways for me to cope besides working it off or, you know, just putting it off?" And so just going through some of the statistics, I'm seeing that this is actually very common amongst people of color. I don't know if you remember this viral tweet that went out. An employee actually reached out to their CEO and said, "I need to take a day off of work for my mental health," and the CEO responded applauding her for taking a day off for mental health. And I've never really thought about that before. Like, taking off work for mental health. I'll take off work if I'm really, really sick. Like, throwing up or something. TMI. [laughs] But I don't take it off just to, like, settle myself mentally.Zach: Yeah. I remember when that went viral, and I can tell you I've never even thought to do that. Never with that type of intention, you know? And it's just interesting to me because I've definitely been very stressed out at work, but my default is just to push through it. Like, I'm stressed, but that's work. You know, I'll grind. And, you know, we're consultants, so it's not out of the ordinary for us to work 65+-hour weeks, including weekends. Whatever. There's a certain pride to it though, to be honest. Like, to say, "Yeah, I'm working." "Oh, yeah, no. I'm working." "I'm working." "I'm working," and it's almost like--I don't know. Out of nowhere, you start just feeling down or really exhausted mentally. I'm just more prone to be frustrated or annoyed at stuff that doesn't matter during these times. It's almost like I'm borrowing against credit, but that credit is my personal wellness, because all those extra hours, awkward exchanges, crazy deadlines, tone-deaf comments from my boss, they all just come rushing back.Latricia: Hm. That's an interesting analogy. So when you say credit, basically you're saying your account's in the negative once you're trying to work through some of the mental conditions that you're dealing with.Zach: Right. And my point is I definitely understand that mental health matters and mental wellness matters. Of course we have the common points around how mental care in the black and brown communities are ostracized and how we're told to pray it away and stuff like that.Latricia: Yeah, that's also the case in the Nigerian community. Some of y'all may not know I'm Nigerian-American, and having conversations about mental health and depression, it's very taboo. If you're dealing with some of those things, then you're crazy or you're possessed or it's some type of juju, as we say, and there's a lot of stigma when it comes to going to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. And so it's just something--growing up, I wasn't exposed to this idea of seeking access to mental health care.Zach: Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because on the promo trailer for Living Corporate we talked about the fact that we won't always have all the answers, right? And this is a situation where we definitely don't have, you know, any answers really, you know?Latricia: Yeah, I totally agree. We really don't, and it would be great if we could bring a guest who is a mental health expert, like a person of color who has graduated from medical school and is currently in a residency program at a top five program for psychiatry in the nation. Or perhaps we have a little bonus this episode and bring an additional guest, someone who is a Ph.D candidate in developmental neuropsychology whose research focuses on autism spectrum disorder and its impact on people of color?Zach: Oh, you mean like our two guests, Dr. Tobi Odunsi and Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu? Zach and Latricia: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns] Come on, Sound Man. Drop 'em, and give me some extras 'cause we got an extra guest on the show. Come on.[Sound Man obliges]Latricia: All right. So next we're going to go into our interviews with our guests, Dr. Tobi Odunsi and Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu. Hey, y'all. This is Latricia, and today we're talking about a really important topic, which is mental health in the workplace. We're really excited to have two guests on the show today. We have Dr. Tobi Odunsi, who is a resident physician in psychiatry, and we also have Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu, who studies neurodevelopmental and cognitive psychology in children. So we're really excited to have a conversation about mental health and self-care and how you can make sure that you're managing issues such as depression and anxiety and stress, but we also want to expand the conversation a little bit more and talk about this concept of neurodiversity, and so we're just gonna go ahead and jump right in. Tobi, it's so nice to have you on the show. She's gonna kick us off, and she's gonna talk to us a little bit more about psychiatry. So Tobi, could you go ahead and introduce yourself?Tobi: Yeah. Thanks, Latricia. Like Latricia said, my name is Tobi Odunsi. I'm really excited for what you guys are doing on this show. I'm so excited to talk about mental health today with you guys. I am a second-year psychiatry resident, and I study psychiatry, which is a branch of medicine that focuses on diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of mental, emotional, and behavioral disorders, things that range from anxiety and depression all the way to autism, ADHD, and PTSD. So I'm really excited.Latricia: Cool, cool. So, as you know, this conversation today is about mental wellness in Corporate America, and really within the context of underrepresented groups. Also, we're expanding it again--like I said, different neurological presentations and developmental presentations and kind of how mental health is intersection across all of those identities, and earlier in the show we shared some statistics around some of those disparities that we talked about, specifically some racial disparities that we see in mental health and mental health practices. So let me ask you this. You know, being an ethnic minority, what inspired you to go into mental health? Were there some disparities that kind of sparked your interest and you wanted to study?Tobi: This is a very, very good question. I get this a lot actually. So my interest in psychiatry actually started before I went into medical school. It's three--I'm gonna go with it's three different things that got me interested in psychiatry. I noticed that I am really, really interested in why human beings behave the way that they do, so that interest was there. The second thing was that I have a brother who is on the autism spectrum, and I was just interested in seeing what--you know, how do these mental health workers work with that? And third thing was I noticed that there was an under-representation of black or African--'cause I'm Nigerian--psychiatrists in the field, and I wanted to be able to be a part of that, and I also felt like if I was going to be in medicine I would make the most difference by being in psychiatry. So just a short, brief version of why I decided to go into psychiatry. So all of those things together were the reason. My brother, just general interest, and where I could--I felt like I could make the most difference in medicine.Latricia: Definitely, and--you know, some of those statistics that we shared earlier in the show, they're--it's really frustrating, and it's hard to really grasp because we see a lot of--we see a high prevalence of mental health issues in black and brown communities specifically, but we're not seeing a lot of people going and getting help and counseling and therapy. So can you talk a little bit about the stigma that's associated with mental health in black and brown communities?Tobi: Yeah. And a lot of this is gonna be more, like, personal opinion and maybe some research to it, but I believe a lot of black and brown communities, the way we are raised or the way our culture is we believe in, I want to say, saving face sometimes, and also, you know, very religious backgrounds, and so there is that stigma to mental health issues. I remember, you know, a couple years ago actually, one of my family members said, "Nigerians are not depressed," and, you know, I think that is a huge myth. Actually, there are statistics that show that, you know, blacks or African-Americans, about 20% of them are likely to have more serious mental health issues because they don't get help until they're, like, critically ill, and I think a lot of that is because of the stigma behind it. A lot of people think you can pray things away and, you know, mental health stuff isn't real. "This is not something that affects us. We don't talk to other people about our issues. We just pray to God," and so I'm unclear exactly where this stems from, but I think it's just the way our culture is, and we're very religious, and it's just kind of things go with us.Latricia: Yeah, I totally agree. I can relate to that as well, being Nigerian, and it's just not something that people are very comfortable talking about. Depression--again, you can just pray these things away, but one of my questions is, you know, we understand kind of what some of those core values are in some of those communities. What is the mental health community doing to make sure that they're able to reach those groups? So if their values are prayer, or if there's issues with, you know, just being comfortable and being open, like, what is the mental health community doing now to try to reach out and address the stigma?Tobi: Hm, let me think about this one for a little bit. Psychiatrists get together and have meetings. They're putting together different documents or data, you know, about underrepresented minorities in the country, and, you know, the mental health disparities in those countries, and kind of--in those groups I mean, and putting out data to inform people. And I think this could vary depending on the psychiatrist, but educating yourself a lot about the community, putting yourself out there educating people, because I think the problem and the thing with stigma is people are not educated enough. And so people holding, you know, different--what do you call those things? Not stereotypes. What do you call those things? Like, [inaudible]? Yeah, a health fair. You know, going to churches, 'cause there's a guy in my residency program who goes to a church and talks to people in the church about mental health situations because a lot of black people are in the church. So going to the church, talking about depression, PTSD, trauma, racial-based trauma. Going to the communities where, you know, minorities gather is a way to kind of reach out to them and let them know that, you know, you have this struggle, this is normal, and there's ways for you to get these things treated.Latricia: For myself personally, I have a master's degree in public health. I consider myself to be pretty well-educated, went to really good schools, but I'm still even a little I guess unfamiliar with the mental health community, and based on conversations that I've had with people, one of the common I guess issues that a lot of minorities face when they get into Corporate America is this idea that you're the only one so you need to make sure you go above and beyond to prove that you deserve to be there. And it causes a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress, and you'll see a lot of minorities tend to burn out early because they don't know how to deal with that stress. And these are communities that are typically more highly-educated. So my question for you is can you address this idea that you have to overwork? And more so, could you focus on kind of like the impact that can have on your body, on your health, on your mental wellness? 'Cause I don't think we really, truly understand that this can really cause psychological, physiological damage to your health, but we're so focused on overworking, proving ourselves. So could you speak a little bit on maybe what you've seen with clients or just maybe what could be the physiological impact of that?Tobi: Good question. So I'd like to say--and I kind of agree, you know, being a minority in a workplace, you often feel like you have to work twice as hard to get what your other counterparts get in the workplace, and that can be very, very stressful on your body. A lot of times we say, you know, the things that are important are you getting good sleep, exercise and eating well, and if these things aren't in tune you start to get some stress on your body because, you know, you have a cortisol dump or a cortisol overload and you're stressed out.Latricia: You're right. You do need the support from your family, your friends, your network, and your employers in a sense. So it's important to know about your diagnosis. It's important to understand, you know, what this means for you moving forward and how you're going to continue to live a normal life at work and just in your personal life. And so I guess that leads me to my last question, which is really just about maintenance long-term. So some of these diagnoses can be long-term from my understanding. Like, you could be diagnosed with bipolar, and it's probably something that you're gonna have to deal with for the rest of your life. So could you talk a little bit more about just that long-term maintenance and establishing, you know, a state where you are mentally healthy? Or maybe somebody may call mental health happiness. Just talking about how you just maintain.Tobi: Yeah. That's a very, very good question, and a lot of times when I'm speaking with patients or just people in general I often like to compare mental health issues with diabetes. They're both chronic illnesses, and a lot of times not only is a patient dealing with that, their family members are dealing with that. And so in order to be successful, you need to continue to follow up with your mental health providers. You need to keep taking your medications. You need to engage in activities that make you happy or provide some type of benefit for you mentally, like exercising or meditation or some type of hobby. I always tell people, just because, you know, you checked your sugars today, when you have diabetes, and they're great, that doesn't mean you're gonna stop taking your insulin. The same thing applies with mental health issues. Just because you're having a good day or you had several amount of weeks where you're doing well, that doesn't mean you're gonna stop going to see your mental health provider or stop taking your medicine or stop engaging in all of those activities that you've been doing to make sure you keep a normal, healthy life, you know? You need to keep doing those things every day so that you're able to continue to be functional in society. Stress with the body, you know, can increase your cortisol level, which is a stress hormone. You know, either waking or not sleeping well and overall just not feeling good at all, and so what I try to talk to patients about or work with patients on is ways to cope with that stress. So there's different things that you can do without necessarily getting into medication. Exercise. I know a lot of people are like, "What? Exercise?" There's been studies that actually show that exercise works just as well as SSRIs, which are the first line for a lot of depressive and anxiety disorders. So exercising can make a huge difference in how you're feeling or dealing with stress. Also sleep, which a lot of times when you're under stress you're not sleeping so well, but being able to get a good amount of sleep can help with whatever stress issues you have. Now, let's say you're not the exercise type or you just have poor sleeping habits. What can you do? Well, meditation. One app that I use is called Insight Timer, and I recommend this to a lot of people because it has different kinds of meditations that you can use, and just being able to take a 5-minute break when you're at work when you feel like everything is overwhelming, everyone is coming to you making you do all of these things, just go to the app, put in, you know, "work break," and it has a little bit of a meditation. 5 to 10 minutes. It can kind of calm your hormones down, get your stress levels a little bit down, and you can get back into the workplace and do what you gotta do.Latricia: Yeah, those are all really important things. Making sure you're getting your exercise, you're getting your sleep, you're taking those mini-breaks in order to prevent, you know, exacerbating the issue like you said. Cortisol levels, all this science stuff, but it can really lead to a more serious condition if you're not taking care of yourself and allowing yourself to just overwork and overstress. So my next question for you is when do you know that you may need to see a mental health provider?Tobi: Good question. I get this question a lot from a lot of people. And so mental health--I'd like to start with that--ranges, like we said in the beginning of the podcast, from anxiety to ADHD to autism to PTSD. Depending on what you are experiencing, things become a problem when they start to affect your daily life, they start to affect your functioning, they start to affect you being able to go to work, being able to hang out with friends. That's one of the big signs, I would say, of when you need to get help. So I would start with, like, depression because a lot of people tend to relate to this or understand this. Sadness is a normal emotion. Just like you can be happy, you can be angry, you can be sad. It is normal. Now, when does it start to get into depression? Depression is when you feel like this is lingering. With sadness, for example, let's say you got into an argument with a friend and you feel sad about it. That can maybe last for an hour during that day, maybe you think about it the next day, the day after, and it kind of goes away, but with depression that kind of lingers. That sadness stays there. You suddenly don't feel like doing things that you like to do anymore. You suddenly don't feel like you want to be around people. Maybe in some situations you start to feel like life isn't worth living. A lot of times when you start to notice those signs you start to think to yourself, "Maybe I need to see somebody." So there's the normal stuff, like the sadness, and there's the stuff that is kind of far away from the norm where you're not being yourself. So you're withdrawn from people and you're starting to think it might be better if you're not alive anymore. Usually that's when I would say, "Okay, you need to go see somebody," and sometimes maybe the feeling of sadness might linger for a week, but if it's going on a little bit more than a week I would suggest, okay, going to talk to somebody, and they could kind of evaluate you or kind of go through some of those things that you're thinking and see if there's maybe some type of depression or anxiety of something causing you to feel the way that you feel.Latricia: I think using depression as an example is really good. I think a lot of people can definitely relate to that, a lot of people in our audience as well. You know, when you're in your 20s, that's typically when people experiences sometimes their first psychotic break, so it's very important to be aware for some of those signs that you mentioned and actually take action to see a health care provider. So my next question is how do you select a health care provider? I know for me--I've done my research just trying to look for a mental health provider, and I still haven't been able to find one yet. I have decent insurance through my job, and I've been looking for a Ph.D, an MD psychologist or psychiatrist that I can go see, but I'm also looking for one that's a person of color and, like, as you mentioned before, you don't see a lot of people of color in that field. So could you talk a little bit more about, like, strategies on how to find somebody that you could relate to? I know there's other levels of psychology. Master's and other forms. Like, could you just explain that breakdown?Tobi: Yes. This is actually one of my favorite things to talk about. There's so many people that could provide mental health services. Like Latricia was saying, you have your psychiatrists, which is a medical doctor. Goes to medical school, does a psychiatry residency. They provide, you know, medication treatment, and they also provide therapy services. And then you have your clinical psychologists, a lot of them whom have a Ph.D in clinical psychology, or some people have a, you know, Ph.D in education with maybe a concentration in some therapy services. You have your licensed professional counselors. You have your social workers, a lot of them with masters in that and have training in therapy, and you also have your nurses or nurse practitioners that also do that kind of stuff. There's different ways to find people. The American Psychiatric Association has a Find A Provider tab where you can look up psychiatrists in your area I believe by zip code, and you can find a provider on there. Same with the American Psychological Association. You can go on there and find that. Some friends we've worked on looking at, I believe it's the Black Psychologists Association. I can't remember the exact one, but if you looked up, like--yeah, ABPsi, and they have a Find A Provider tab, and you can find people on there actually if you're more particular about what your person looks like. Also, recently I stumbled upon something called the Open Path Therapy Initiative, which is a nation-wide--so it's a non-profit organization that has partnered with different mental health providers in all 50 states, and it's--this is mostly for people with no insurance or are under-insured, and if you go on there, you pay a one-time $49 fee, and you can find many providers in your area by just putting in your zip code. I actually know somebody that's used this service and told me when she looked it up she found, like, six black therapists in her area. And so that is something that appears to be very legit in finding a provider. I know it's very, very difficult to find a psychiatrist or psychologist without, you know, asking someone else who's used those services before, but another thing that people can do if you have insurance and you often use your insurance is your insurance has a list of providers that provide services for you, and so if your insurance covers behavioral health services, you should be able to find mental health providers that accept your insurance if they do so. And for those that don't accept insurance, you know, you can also Google and find some providers, but those resources I mentioned earlier are pretty legit in terms of, you know, providers that are out there that can provide mental health services for you, and in my opinion, and this is not, like, a science-based type of thing, all of these people are trained and have to take exams to be licensed to do therapy or provide, you know, mental health services to people, and so whether you pick a psychiatrist versus a psychologist or a social worker or a professional counselor, you're going to get good service.Latricia: That's all--that's good stuff, so we'll make sure we list all of those resources in the description of this podcast as well as on our show notes online so everyone that's listening can go and check that out. And I'm glad you made that clarification. I've been looking for doctorates not knowing that, you know, a master's degree level social worker, an LPC, could provide those same services if I'm looking for therapy or counseling, and that really does expand your options, and so that's also really important. Once you do go through that process of working with a mental health provider, you may be diagnosed with some type of mental health issue. Can you talk a little bit about what that's like?Tobi: Our job as a provider is to be supportive and to educate the patient on what their mental health disorder is, what does this mean for you. As a provider, what I often tend to do--especially if they have no experience in this--is explain "What does this mean to me?" So discussing with them what does depression mean or anxiety mean or bipolar disorder mean or borderline personality disorder mean, and how does it affect, you know, my life moving forward is what I try to do for them. Latricia: So on the topic of being the only one at work or the other at work, that brings me to this video that our college classmate put out about two years ago. Some of y'all that are listening in right now, you may know Evelyn from the Internets, and if you don't know Evelyn from the Internets, I don't know, like, where you've been, but you need to maybe even pause the pod--you need to maybe even pause the podcast and look up Evelyn from the Internets. She is hilarious. So maybe about two years ago, Evelyn put out a video, and it was after a series of videos that went viral about black death. So we remember Trayvon Martin. We remember Alton Sterling, and we remember seeing lots of images online and lots of debates online, and if I go back to that time--and even today we're still seeing it. I try to stay away and not even click on it sometimes, but when I go back to those moments, I remember just feeling down and going back to work and no one's talking about it, and if they are talking about it it's--they're seeing it from a perspective that is very narrow-minded, and so Evelyn put out a video called Calling In Black. So on those days where you just feel like "This is a lot. This is a lot to deal with. This is a lot for me to process right now. I'm going through--" sometimes going through trauma or PTSD, and "I don't think I can function at work today. I don't think I want to be around people who don't care about this issue," and so the video was about calling in black. And we'll drop a little clip. So Sound Man, drop a little clip so they can hear what we're talking about.Evelyn: Sometimes I need a minute, okay? And that's where calling in black would be so clutch. "Oh, no, no. It's not contagious. I need a solid day to reaffirm my humanity to myself, so I'll see you tomorrow." "Oh, no, no. It's not allergies, it's just I just watched the police choke somebody to death and I know they're not gonna go to jail for it, so I'll see you at 11." "I have a slight fever... boiling with the rage of the police killing my people." Latricia: So Tobi, that video--it's funny, right? Evelyn, she's hilarious. So, I mean, what do you think about that? This idea of calling in black and doing that to preserve your mental health.Tobi: Honestly, like, I might not necessarily call it "calling in black," but--you know, there's a reason they give you guys days off or, you know, sick days, and if you need to take a mental health day I am all for it. I totally believe that in order to function 100% your mind has to be right. I always tell people if your mind isn't right, you don't sleep well, you don't eat, you don't do well. Mind isn't right, physical body isn't right? You can't function at work, and so if there is something that affects your mental health and you feel like you just can't function, take that day off. I mean, there's all of those days there. What are you gonna do by going to work if you don't feel great and, you know, you're sitting there in your cubicle or whatever it is, office space, sitting there angry, broiling, you know, about the situation, and there's no one you can talk to. Go home, or stay home, and take that day off. Get yourself right because in order for you to be 100% where you need to be, you need to take that break. Go hang out with other black people and talk to somebody about the situation. Go talk to your therapist about it. Go work out. I am totally for taking those days off. As a matter of fact, you know, I know I don't have that many days to take off, but I try to take, you know, one day off at least a month just to give myself a break because in order for your physical body to be good, your mental health has to be good. If you're not mentally right--and I know I've said this multiple times--you're not able to do anything else. So I'm all for it. I agree with Evelyn. I will call in black whenever I need to and take the time that I need to whenever I have to.Latricia: I agree. I mean, working in Corporate America, it's such a fast-paced and competitive environment, and I am guilty of not using my PTO. Like, I will max out my PTO and never use it, but I do have those days where I'm at work and I'm like, "I'm not functioning right. I should've just taken off and taken a break." And so--yes, we're gonna let y'all know, everyone that's listening, if you need to just take a mental health day, whether you have a diagnosis or you don't have a diagnosis, take that time for yourself. You have your sick days, your PTO, for a reason. Take the time off. It's not good for your health to put yourself in very stressful environments when, you know, you need time to cope. You need time to sit and just, you know, deal with what you're going through. So thank you for that, thank you for that. All right. Yes, that's so important, just maintaining your mental health and maintaining what's happiness to you is gonna be very important for you to be sustainable, especially in a corporate and fast-paced environment. You need to make sure that you're performing at your best and you're at full health. And so thank you so much, Tobi, for just talking to us about mental health and just making it very easy to comprehend and understand, 'cause I know for a lot of people it's foreign territory, whether they're educated or not. It's foreign to so many people, especially underrepresented groups, and so I really do appreciate you for taking your time out. I know residency life is no joke. I know y'all work crazy hours, so I'm so grateful that you had the time to sit with us, and we're gonna make sure we leave all of your contact information below. But before we let you go, Tobi, do you have any shout outs that you'd like to give? Like, if you want to shout out your YouTube channel, your Instagram, let them know.Tobi: Oh, yes. Okay, yes. So I'd like to share my Instagram page with you guys. It is @WhereIsTobi, where is T-O-B-I, and from time to time I will share either mental health facts or do some mental health trivia. In the long term, I'm working on creating a mental health page where we can talk about everything mental health, whether it's bipolar disorder or autism or schizophrenia, whatever it is you'd like to be. I'm all about educating people on mental health because, like Latricia said, a lot of people don't understand it, and I think, you know, what you don't know can actually hurt you. So I will be working on that, but in the meantime y'all can follow my personal Instagram page WhereIsTobi. Thank you.Latricia: Thank you so much, Tobi. That was such a great interview. It was really good to just, at a high level, understand mental health. How do you find a practitioner? If you do become diagnosed with a mental health illness, you know, this is what you can do to make sure that you maintain your health long-term, which is really important. So we're doing something a little different. We have our second interviewer, Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu, and she's gonna talk to us a little bit more about this concept of neurodiversity. So before we dive into that, Nonye, could you just introduce yourself and let us know your background?Nonye: Hi. Okay, I'm Nonye Nwosu. I am a Ph.D, a doctoral candidate, in developmental psychology. I will be obtaining my Ph.D at Georgia State University, and my research [inaudible] are in early development. Early child development, language development, the role of parental responsivity and essentially early childhood experiences and intervention and ramifications that that has long-term. And so I have always had a great passion centered around mental health, psychology. Psychology has been a passion for a very long time. I've always known I wanted to be a psychologist, and focus on talking with people, interacting with people. I've always really enjoyed learning about people's experiences and kind of, on my own, mapping what that means into how they present themselves and who they become. So the topic today is really close to my heart and very important.Latricia: Yes, I totally agree. I think when we talk about mental health--when we do talk about it, which is not very often, a lot of the times the focus is on depression and anxiety, bipolar disorder, and we're not always bringing into the conversation other forms of maybe neurological disorders or conditions that can also impact your experiences in the workplace, and I've been reading a lot about this new concept of neurodiversity, which talks about the diversity in neurological abilities of people, and so we see those that are so-called neurotypical, and then those that are neuroatypical, so people with autism or ADHD or autism spectrum disorder, and, you know, we don't really talk a lot about how those conditions impact your experiences in the workplace. And so, Nonye, could you just talk a little bit more about neurodiversity? What is the movement all about?Nonye: Right. So that's a good question, and I think I failed to mention that autism spectrum disorder is really the central part of my research work and my passion, and autism is--it's a condition that has really come to the forefront, especially within society, that we have more awareness of and more acknowledgment of and more discussions surrounding, and interestingly enough the research is kind of lagging behind and putting enough information out there regarding the transitionary period. So early adulthood, late adulthood, many people don't get diagnosed until much later. So it's not that the research is scant, but there's a lot of inform--we've got gaps in the literature and in the science regarding what this topic around autism, neurodiversity, means, but neurodiversity kind of more globally. And I think--so I think that it's something we're, again, put more acknowledgment and focus on and understanding the promises and the good fortune of appreciating that we can put people--people are really different. People have got a varying spectrum of ability and disability, but more so kind of ability, and they've got a varying degree of things that they can bring to all kinds of fields, and figuring out how we can utilize people's skills and talents. So I see neurodiversity as really being this hedge, this torch-bearer for how we're going to really move forward and trudge through the trenches and get to the bottom of how we can be more inclusive and more appreciative of the things that people are bringing to the table. A lot of the things that we talk about within my field are how to get--you know, it kind of make me think of, like, Solange's album A Seat at the Table. We want to be able to give everyone an opportunity to have a seat at the table, you know? A place in the workforce, and to be useful, and I talk about autism a lot because it is my research area, but one number that I hear quite often--I hear the number 80%, and I've heard around 60-80%. 60-80% of functional individuals who are on the spectrum are unemployed and seen as being unemployable, and that is essentially because we haven't acknowledged or entirely appreciated this topic of neurodiversity, being able to see individuals as neurodivergent, and what we say there is essentially that we have this idea of how people should be thinking, how people should be talking, how people should be presenting themselves across fields, across jobs, across vocations, and perhaps we shouldn't be so stringent with our guidelines, and we can appreciate that, okay, just because this person doesn't have strengths in interpersonal social communication or, you know, isn't the best at giving research presentations, well, perhaps maybe we can--we can utilize the fact that they're excellent coders. They can pay great attention to detail. They can sit endlessly for hours and bang out numbers and provide us with all kinds of statistics instead of just assuming that, well, because they don't want to be talking at the water cooler with everybody or because at lunch they sit by themselves that they're kind of worthless or that they make people uncomfortable because they're, you know, socially withdrawn, but more so neurodiversity acknowledges that everybody can have a place in the workforce, a seat at the table, and we can make them a part of the team and utilize their skill sets and perhaps even our deficits in our skill sets as well.Latricia: That's all really important, and you used a lot of terminology that everyone may not totally be familiar with, so could you kind of break down what some of the language means? So what does it mean to be neurodivergent or neurodiverse or neurotypical? Could you kind of break that down for us?Nonye: Okay, so--yeah, that's a very important point. We don't want to get too--we can't not acknowledge that jargon is being used here. So I think--for me, my understanding of neurodiversity is this movement--excuse me, this theoretical framework, this belief that individuals come to the table with a varying amount of cognitive ability, cognitive skill, and fluency and behavior, and--again, it centers really around cognitive ability. So this notion, if you break it down--you know, neuro being, you know, brain, biologically brain, and diversity being different, that we've got a varying amount of skill and deficits in different areas, and it's not just the people who have got these labels or who are termed with biological disorders that have things that are different about them or quote unquote wrong with them. So acknowledging that we've all got things, and it can mean anything, really. Neurodivergent, what I'm talking about there is this--you know, taking from anything. So when you've got this kind of baseline or this blueprint for how things are supposed to be typically--so we talk about neurotypicality, individuals who are essentially--and this is really rudimentary and really rough because, as Tobi has talked about, Dr. Odunsi's talked about, like, there is a varying amount of I guess ability. One of the things that you often mention with mental health or mental illness is, you know, you're considering something a mental illness when it's become--it's leading to distress or dysfunction or disability, right? So I've always had a hard time understanding neurotypicality because while people are presenting themselves to be functional, it doesn't entirely mean that they are, right? I guess essentially the literature recognizes--the society recognizes neurotypicality as people who are essentially just normal, maybe people who are not on the spectrum. People who don't have these tangible or visible illnesses or disabilities that disallow them to participate in everyday life. And then neurodivergent being related to the neurotypicality in that they're essentially--they're essentially diverging from that framework or that blueprint that you have in understanding what is normal. So when we talk a lot in my field about development, we look at it as being typical or atypical, and I see neurodivergency as being something atypical that's kind of moving away from how we see neurotypicality. So an individual who's on the spectrum may be considered neurodivergent because they may have a very unique way of approaching problems or a very unique approach to working, and we may consider them to be neurodivergent.Latricia: Could you also list some of the--Nonye: Individuals who may be considered neurodivergent, yeah, may present with, you know, ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Individuals who, you know, maybe even have generalized anxiety disorders, they'll be the people who kind of have a global, pervasive, impairing weight. Like, anxiety is really impairing to them, across circumstances, events, situations. I would see people who have Down syndrome as well being involved in kind of adding to that neurodivergency, people who are Fragile X, and if you think more about when people who maybe we're not talking about, neurodevelopmental or a neurobiological disorder. People who--neurodivergency can--it can be seen in, like I said, generalized anxiety disorders. You can see it in people perhaps who have OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. People who just have a different approach, I believe, in seeing things and thinking about things.Latricia: Great. Thank you so much for just kind of explaining to us some of these terms and the different ways that people may present themselves cognitively in society and obviously in the workplace as well. I think it's important for everyone that's listening in--whether you identify or would be classified as neurotypical or neuroatypical or neurodivergent, it's important to be aware of these things because we talk a lot in Corporate America about diversity and inclusion, and, you know, race and gender and sexuality, those tend to be the biggest focus point, and neurodiversity, with it being quote unquote a newer movement, it's not something that we talk about a lot, and these conversations can be very difficult because we're having to--we're having to look at work differently, and we're having to really focus in now on people's strengths and how we can--how we can tap into those strengths and improve our businesses, because as you were mentioning before, you may be neuroatypical, but you're a really good coder, or you can sit for--like, sit for hours and crunch numbers, but, you know, you may have language issues. You may, you know, stutter, or other forms of things that are cognitively impaired, but a lot of times we write you off because of that, and we're not truly maximizing everyone's potential in the workplace, and there is a true business case for maximizing potential obviously, right? So could you talk a little bit about workplace relationships? 'Cause I think everyone needs to hear this. Based on your experience, you know, and your research or with your clients that you've worked with, how has the transition into the workplace been for those who are maybe neuroatypical? Do you see increased social anxiety? Do you see those people tend to be outcasted by employers or by other employees? What have you seen just in your research? 'Cause I think it's important for us to talk about this and have a better understanding.Nonye: So much of existing within the corporate stratosphere and the workforce has to do with how you can promote yourself, interact with people and just exist, right? And not even just exist. Essentially it's just how you're kind of able to relate to people, and so for these individuals we've seen lots of things with--and especially when you're having a much more difficult time than those who could be just as similar as you, but on the appearance level, color level, not look exactly similar to you. So a lot of my interest has been in minority populations as well, and so I kind of consume myself with that literature, and--Latricia: Right. I totally agree when you talk a little bit about the culture of Corporate America. Of course every company is different and every company has its own I guess cultural fit, but there are some standards I guess in Corporate America, and I'm not saying standard by meaning "This is the best practice," but there are certain ways that we operate in Corporate America. And again, talking about diversity and inclusion, you know, what are we doing to kind of rethink some of our cultural norms and think about who's being excluded and what talent are we missing out on because we've created a culture that makes certain people feel uncomfortable? And we talk about race, we talk about gender. You know, what other social norms are making other populations uncomfortable, and what can we do in Corporate America to make the place more inclusive? So that leads me to my next question about just creating environments that people who are neurodivergent can feel comfortable in. So could you speak a little bit about what is happening right now that you've maybe come across in your research to make the workplace more inclusive to those who are neurodivergent? Nonye: Right. That's--I think we're--again, like I've said, science, the world, society, can be behind in getting with the times if you will, but I see promise and initiatives and efforts that are being made. One thing--there's a couple things that jump to mind, and you do happen to see this in bigger cities kind of where you've got a big university or organizational presence and maybe more non-profits, but I have participated in something called the LEND Fellowship, Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental Disabilities Fellowship, twice, and more recently one that I participated in was helmed by the Center for Leadership and Disability at Georgia State University where they task themselves--they're taking very seriously hiring, employing, and getting what we call self-advocates, individual advocates out there to talk about their experiences. One thing I heard a lot about was getting a seat at the table and not just having representatives come in and talk about your experience when you have the very right ability to talk about your experience yourself. So you see that a lot happening in more educational settings and maybe more scientific organizations and agencies as well, where they're trying to make efforts to employ, to get people in councils, who represent the issues that they're discussing. Parents have been really, really excellent in not only advocating for their children within school settings and systems and more in their communities but on the legislative level in Congress and Capitol Hill as well, and I think--another thing that jumps to mind too is universities who have--like, Georgia Tech has, like, the Excel Program. People who are really trying to promote and prioritize not even just bringing individuals to have a seat at the table and talk about their experiences but presenting them with very structured opportunities and experiences where they can matriculate into the workforce and into areas of which that they feel successful in, and not even just workforce, but Excel for example having these inclusive environments where you're making them a part of the university, the campus life atmosphere, and having them be a part of discussions that are being had around not just what's going on with them but broader discussions, and politics and workplace life and exercise. That's one thing that I liked about that program as well. So these are for individuals [inaudible], and what I also appreciate about this is--this is a range, a spectrum of ability, and less about kind of I.Q. but more about adaptive kind of daily living, functioning. So not just how well you're doing in your classes, but shifting the emphasis to things like, "Are you able to get up in the morning, brush your teeth, put your clothes on, and go to classes?" Or "Are you able to"--if you can do all those things, you know, if you're highly academically intelligent, "Are you able to be organized, keep a schedule, and show up to work on time?" These kinds of things, and if not we can help you. And including the community within that. So again, I think about Excel, but they've done things where they've got, you know, [inaudible], and there are a number of companies who have the--who are [inaudible], like Delta, Chick-fil-A, and talking to these individuals, seeing what they're interested in, seeing what they're good at, and giving them opportunities to be a part of these bigger organizations and contribute what they can contribute. Like I said, these are happening in bigger cities, and so that can be a little bit--that doesn't essentially entirely promote this idea of inclusivity, but efforts are being made, and I think it starts with acknowledgement and understanding things like what this podcast is doing and recognizing the varying spectrum of ability and contribution. [inaudible] yourself if you can [inaudible] that person. I met a man out here who is the district manager for a Chick-fil-A. He owns two Chick-fil-A franchises and makes an important focus on hiring individuals who have disabilities and who, if they can't be at the front register interacting with individuals, giving them something to do, and these individuals want to work. They want to be a part, and they usually do not take for granted the fact that someone has given them some kind of opportunity and someone is willing to work with them. And sometimes they may require extra effort. Maybe someone who's gonna spend a little bit more time training them, who could look out for them and watch out for them, but I think it can be acknowledged that if the story has been they can't contribute to the workforce or they can't contribute to life and we're not seeing that, then things can and should change.Latricia: That's great. You listed off a lot of really good resources, and again, in addition to what Tobi listed off, we will list all of those resources in our show notes so people can go in and see, you know, what's being done out there to create more inclusive environments, what's going on in our community. You know, do we have access to universities that we can partner with that we can learn from? Because this is a topic that if you're not--you know, if you don't have someone close to you that may be affected by this it's not really on a lot of people's radars, and I really liked some of those stories that you shared, just to know that, you know, we're trying to work on creating a more open culture. So having people who may present with some of these neuroatypical disorders to speak out and be open about their experiences and having, you know, more advocacy is all gonna be really important because the awareness is where I personally I feel we're lacking. I haven't heard a lot of conversations about this in my experience in over three years now in Corporate America. It's not something that we've really talked about in the diversity and inclusion discussion. So again, you know, it's great to hear that, you know, there are organizations out there that are trying to push this forward, and we really want to get this message out to our audience so that they can go back to their organizations and start to really think about how we can create a more open culture, how can we raise more awareness, and what can we do structurally to help make sure that everyone feels welcome? Like, what can we do with our workspaces? What can we do in terms of, like, how we socialize, and how can we be more aware? So thank you so much for educating it us on this topic. I know you come from a Ph.D background. Like, you can go into all the science and stuff like that, but you were able to present it in a way that's easily digestible, and hopefully everyone was able to take something away from this discussion. So great. Well, thank you so much again, Nonye. It was so nice to have you on the show. Again, you and Dr. Odunsi, very busy people, so it's really great that y'all are taking time to give back and talk to people about this very important issue.Nonye: Thank you so much for having us, Latricia, and I'm appreciative too for any opportunity to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly honestly, and to figure out how we can find a place and--[inaudible] like you said, the most important aspect is awareness, and, you know, awareness does not exist without dialogue and discussion and the ability to be vulnerable and have discussions and learn from that.Latricia: I totally agree. So before we let you go, do you have any shout outs?Nonye: I want to give a shout out to Living Corporate because this is a big deal. [both laugh]Latricia: Thank you.Nonye: What you guys are doing is very--I mean, it's a very unique approach that you're taking to having a very important discussion and really capitalizing, I think, on a number of kind of different zeitgeists that are happening. I will give a shout out to the Green Light [inaudible], to my people, the culture, just for my appreciation for understanding so much. So much of, like, who I am is related to--as a child developmental psychologist, right? So much of I think who I am and the way I see the world is related to what I've learned from the people around me, from my neighborhoods, from my networks, from my friends, over time. I also think I want to give a really big shout out to my mentor at the CDC, Dr. Marshall [inaudible], who is, you know, a maverick who's a pioneer in leading the Autism and Developmental Disabilities monitoring network who has just spearheaded essentially a really big--people who put out our prevalence numbers, the research that goes into having a better understanding of prevalence, of a number of neurodevelopmental disabilities, and from that they're also getting--there's been so much more effort to understand ethnic and racial differences within these developmental disabilities, and they're finding a lot of things and saying that we need to target that and to charge that as well. And to Dr. Odunsi for being a hero.Latricia: Thanks so much. We'll definitely--any of those shout outs that you would like for us to share, we'll put that in there as well. So thanks again for joining the show. It was a really great conversation with Dr. Odunsi and future Dr. Nonye Nwosu. So thanks again, and that's all we have. Zach: And we're back. Latricia, that was a great interview. I feel like I learned a lot, and I have some additional tools in my toolkit to deal with anxiety, self-care, and really leveraging my own resources. I know for me, I need to be more intentional with my own care and how I manage myself. Just looking at the statistics, they're eye-opening, but they honestly weren't that shocking. How did you feel about the interview?Latricia: I agree. The statistics really aren't that shocking when you take a moment and really self-reflect on your own experiences with mental health in the workplace. Another really important takeaway for me was the importance of expanding the diversity and inclusion conversation to also be more inclusive of the varieties and the diversities of mental health abilities and understanding that we all bring different strengths to the table, so what can we do in the corporate space to be more open and understanding of that concept? Of that very important concept.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and when you talk about diversity and inclusion, again, like it really matters, and it comes into play with everything in our society. That doesn't mean that we're making it about race. That doesn't mean that we're trying to create a new narrative or whatever else the other buzz phrases are. It's about being honest and really thinking through how people of color have to live and move in this society. And I think it's really gonna be important that we list all of the different resources and references that were made during the interview, that we put those in the show notes as well, you know?Latricia: Certainly. We'll make sure that everything is listed in the show notes so that you can get access to those resources related to how to find a mental health provider or other mental health institutions that are out there that can help you deal with some of your mental health concerns. And I also want to give a shout out to a couple of other podcasts that really are centered around this topic of mental health that our audience may find interesting. There's Therapy for Black Girls, the Affirmed podcast, Black and Therapy podcast, With That Being Said podcast, and Melanin and Mental Health. And we'll link these in the description as well.Zach: Those are great shout outs, and I definitely want to actually include Deun Ivory's Black Girl In Om and Lauren Ash's Black Girl In Om podcast. I know we just had 'em on the B-Side, but they're actually really good and they fit into this niche well around mental wellness, therapy, self-care. So it's really good. Now, with that being said, let's get into Favorite Things, okay? And I'm gonna go ahead and kick it off. My favorite thing right now is yet another book, but it's not an aggressive book title this time, okay? It's called Real Food: What to Eat and Why. As many of you know, diet plays an important role in mental health, so knowing what to fuel your body with is important. Latricia, what is your favorite thing right now?Latricia: So I know I give Amazon a shout out all the time, so, you know, we do need to pitch to Amazon for sponsorship [laughs] because I'm always giving them shout outs, but Amazon, it's so clutch. So kind of again on that topic of mental health, I've really been working on trying to get on my work out grind, 'cause Dr. Odunsi said in the interview, exercise is a great way to cope with different mental health illnesses or conditions that you're dealing with, and as a consultant, again, we travel a lot and sometimes work very odd hours, so I may not leave the client site before the gym closes. And so I'm trying to find more ways to work out in my hotel room, so I've really been enjoying some of the different products that I've purchased from Amazon's travel equipment, travel work out equipment. And so I'll link some of the work out equipment that I use on a daily basis.Zach: Awesome. And look, guys, remember - the favorite things that we talk about on the show are also listed on the website, so check those out. And I think that's gonna do it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you for joining the show. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And I think that does it for us on the show. My name is Zach.Latricia: And I'm Latricia.Latricia and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this B-side, we sit down with educator, HR Business Partner, public speaker, and Austin Human Resource Management Association (AHRMA) president elect Angela Shaw to discuss her journey of professional reinvention. #AHRMA #ProfessionalDevelopment #PublicSpeaking #Hardworkpaysoff #HumanResourcesAngela Shaw's LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/angelalshaw/Austin Human Resource Management Association (AHRMA)https://www.austinhumanresource.orgTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you’re listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we’ve introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is someone’s first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between the larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit. Now, listen. I know, the regular shows are lit, but these are somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they’re discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they’re extended monologues, or maybe they’re even a chat with a special guest. Today we have such a guest. Her name is Ms. Angela Shaw. Angela is a public speaker, educator, and has functioned as an HR business partner for both the private and public sector. She is the president-elect of the Austin Human Resource Management Association, a not-for-profit association of over 800 resource professionals in the greater Austin area representing more than 500 businesses. Angela, welcome to the show. [Sound Man throws in children’s applause] Angela: Thank you so much, Zach. I’m excited to be here. And thank you for that intro. That was wonderful. Zach: No problem, no problem. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Angela: So I am a professional who started a little late getting serious about her career, and not that that’s a bad thing--I certainly don’t feel bad about it, and I’m proud to say now, in my mid-forties, I’m finally on a career path that I want to be on. So just a little more about that. It was about probably ten years ago that I really became focused on my career and serious about setting a path. I was very intentional about going into HR. In the beginning, I was in administrative roles. I was in a small organization, and through attrition I became responsible for some HR training duties, and I have to say that was the point for me. I remember the very first training I conducted for staff, and the feeling of accomplishment that I had from that, it was like no other feeling, and I knew then and there that I wanted to go fully into HR. And so I began looking for a job in HR, and I found one, and I have not looked back since. I feel like at this point it’s important to say, noteworthy to mention, that I am the only person in my immediate family of parents and siblings of seven people to graduate from college, and while they were supportive, sometimes the understanding of why I just have continued to push myself into staying busy professionally hasn’t always been there. And I love my family because they’re an integral part of who I am and my base of where I come from, but I didn’t wanna let where I came from define where I was going. So once I got into an HR job I began to really learn and practice HR, and what I found was that I wasn’t gonna be able to move forward without credentials. So my experience and my smile wasn’t going to be enough. So by then I had a few years of HR experience under my belt. I had also gone through a major life change, which was a divorce, and that was the true catalyst of my reinvention. So early 30s, I learned through that divorce that nothing was guaranteed, and I learned that it was up to me to be able to take care of myself into retirement and that me, myself, and I were gonna be all the identity that I actually needed. So it took me a few years, but literally I had to physically, emotionally, and spiritually recover from the divorce, and that’s when I set out on deciding what my career path would be in HR. So by this time I was certified in HR, I knew I wanted to stay in HR, and so I started working towards getting my Bachelor’s degree. I took my first college course at the age of 30, and it took me eight years to finish, but when I tell you that that was probably the biggest accomplishment of my life, that is certainly the truth. I graduated with a degree in business administration and a minor in my love of HR. So by the time I completed my Bachelor’s degree, I was in an HR management position, I was leading staff, and I had become a strategic business partner in a growing organization. So I had really accomplished something that up until then had only been a dream of mine and that I didn’t even know I could actually do, but soon after completing that degree--then I started to really sit down and chart what my continued success would look like. So I wanted to be a chief HR officer. I still want to be a chief HR officer. And what does that path look like for me? I thought about what other professional accomplishments I could achieve that would help me on this track to being a chief HR officer. I also thought about how I could reach back and help others. So everyone, but particularly people who come from under-represented groups that I identify with. So women, people of color, people over the age of 40, you know? That was in December of 2012. So since then I have really been able to grow my career in multiple ways by being intentional. So I’ve held leadership positions in HR in different organizations because I really wanted to get different industry experience. I’ve held multiple volunteer leadership positions in several organizations, and as you mentioned, I’m currently president-elect of AHRMA. I also teach a class as an adjunct professor at Austin Community College, so I teach an Essentials of HR class, and this year I really began public speaking on HR topics, but the one closest to my heart being diversity and inclusion-- Zach: So talk to me about that though. Talk to me about how you were able to--first of all, thank you so much ‘cause you’re giving me a lot, even in, like, just the introduction of who you are, and you actually answered a couple of my questions, but I want to pause you really quick because I really want to hear more about the transition, how you pivoted--’cause you explained the pivot in your early 30s to really being a more focused HR professional, but talk to us please a little bit more about how you pivoted from that or in that to being in public speaking. I’d love to hear that. Angela: So I feel like in my journey there’s been a lot of denials based on things that I was not able to change about myself, these unconscious biases. That’s a phrase that we hear a lot, you know? I feel like I received a lot of denials in my life, whether it was trying to get a job I felt like I deserved or being promoted, or someone even deciding that I just--you know, I wasn’t worthy of them hearing what I had to say. That was the pivot for me when it came to speaking, public speaking, and as I had volunteer leadership roles they kind of naturally provide a platform for you to be able to speak about different things, but I intentionally sent a proposal to speak at an event. So DisruptHR is a movement that is sweeping the world, and they had an event in Austin, and I saw something about it, and I sent a proposal, not knowing whether or not I would actually get it, but I find that if you want something to happen, obviously you speak it into existence, but then you follow that up with action, and that’s what I did by submitting the proposal. And they picked me, and I spoke at this DisruptHR event in Austin, and I was so proud, but it was the feedback that I received afterwards that was so pivotal for me. So if you public speak and people come up to you afterwards and they say, “Oh, you did a great job, and I really enjoyed that,” I’m sure it’s true, but that’s very subjective. But if somebody comes up to you afterwards and they want to engage with you in conversation to follow up what you talked about, that’s how you know you’re doing what you’re supposed to do. You said what you were supposed to say. You touched somebody. You want to move somebody to action, and so that’s what the public speaking has become for me, that opportunity to reach one and teach one. Every person that I get to touch that wants to take action means that I’m successful, so that’s really where the public speaking piece comes from, giving a voice and a platform to everybody who’s been denied or under-represented groups who feel like they don’t have a voice. That’s where it comes from. Zach: That’s awesome. And so, you know, you’ve mentioned your age, and you’ve mentioned just the--I think that’s a critical part of your journey and your story, right? So what advice would you have for older, more seasoned professionals who may feel like it’s too late for them, considering that there is a perception that this current era is dominated by millennials and that really if you’re not with a certain age bracket, you don’t count or you won’t be heard as much. I’m curious because, you know, a lot of our listeners are younger professionals. However, we have professionals who are Gen X and who are even baby boomers, right? So, you know, when I listen to your story, I’m encouraged because it reminds me that there’s no point in your life where it’s too late to try something different or to even reinvigorate yourself, and so I’m curious - do you have any advice for the 30-something, even the 40 or 50-something out there who’s looking to make a transition, who may have some questions or anxiety around how to go about doing that? Angela: I do. So I love to use my personal story as an example as hard work pays off and that no matter what doors are closed or how many glass ceilings you feel like there are, everybody has the opportunity set a goal and then work towards that goal. I would tell them--so I rep Gen X all the way, that’s what I am, but I have a couple of millennial traits, and I feel like I have some baby boomer traits also. So I would tell them to make sure they’re setting their personal goals, and make their goals about them. It’s not about anybody else. They can’t compare themselves to other people. What they can do is put in that work and then let their path continue in its own time and own way the way it should. I would also tell them it’s never too late, never. Every day that you wake up is an opportunity to get better. I love to say that. So that’s an opportunity every day to actively work towards a goal that you might have for yourself. So that would be my advice that I would give to anybody. Keep at it. Set your goals and keep at it, and don’t compare yourself to other people because everybody’s path is different.  Zach: Well, that’s amazing, and I appreciate that, and I’m sure our listeners appreciate that as well. So before we go, do you have any final shout outs? Any more words of wisdom that you’d like to share in part for us? Angela: I do. So I’ll start with the final words before I give the shout out. I stopped keeping track of how many denials I received. So I think anybody who’s in an under-represented group knows what I’m talking about when it comes to these denials that are real, but I stopped keeping track of the denials, and instead I started keeping track of my successes that I’ve had in my journey. And so my final words of wisdom to anybody is to do that. No one’s stopping you but you, so stop keeping track of those denials and start keeping track of your successes. And as my final shout out, I want to shout out anybody out there who is working towards a goal and feels like you’re alone. You are not alone, and your hard work is not in vain. Hard work pays off, and I’m a prime example of that. And lastly, Zach, I just want to thank you for giving me some time to tell my story. I hope--if there’s at least one person out there who hears this story and feels in any kind of way inspired then we did our part. I also want to tell you I’m a fan of yours. I wish you success in everything that you do and everything that you want for yourself, and I will always be a supporter. Zach: Angela, first of all, thank you so much for the love. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. It’s a wonderful story, and it’s a story that needs to be told because I believe that we live in a time today where, you know, social media and just the way that we consume content, it’s easy just to think that, you know, only a select few can be successful, right? But to your point, it’s about working hard. It’s about being intentional. It’s about being consistent, and it’s about being true to who you are and true to your own story, right? So you epitomize that, and I’m really just thankful to have you here. I definitely want to shout you out. I want to shout out the Austin Human Resource Management Association, and I want to make sure that we have you back on the show. Angela: Absolutely. Thank you, Zach. Zach: Awesome. Well, look. That does it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at @LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget - we also have a Patreon. So if you’d like to support us through Patreon, make sure to check out the links and information in the show notes below. My name is Zach. You’ve been talking with Angela Shaw. Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.