On the eighth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, helpfully informs us of one technique to use in our interviews to ensure that we have a great one - turning them into business meetings.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. If you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you are in the right place. I'm here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking about one technique to use in your interview to have a bomb in-ter-view. The number one challenge I see with people doing well in the interview is not being confident. Lack of confidence will have you in an interview sweating, nervous, looking unprepared, just looking like you're not ready and you're not a good fit for the job. If you are not confident in yourself and in your abilities, why would you think the interviewer would be confident? You can have a bomb resume - I'm talking about with MBA here, Master's degree here, you know, years of experience, all of these skills and qualifications, you've led teams, but if you go into this interview and you are acting scared [laughs] or you're shy or you're timid, that interview is not going to go over well. I have so many clients and people that reach out to me every day. If you've been listening to this podcast, then you know I'm a career coach. I have so many folks that reach out to me because they're like, "I don't know why I'm not getting the job. I'm getting the interview. My resume is great," but then we actually do interview coaching and they're nervous, and I'm like, "Wait, what happened to this person with all of this great experience on paper?" And when we talk to you in person it's completely, completely different. You cannot walk into these interviews acting shy or scared or timid. You have to be confident, you have to be bold, and you have to walk in there like you know what the hell you're doing. So how can you do this? And this kind of brings me to the tip I wanted to share today. Start turning the interview into a normal business meeting. That starts with being solutions-focused and also showcasing or demonstrating that you are a problem solver. I had one of my client students, she was interviewing for an internal role - now, it will be a little easier to do something like this if you are interviewing for an internal role, but you can still do it if you're new to that company. So she works in learning and development for--excuse me, she is an instructional designer for a university, and she was interviewing for a promotion, and she went into the interview, she turned it into a normal business meeting, and by the end of it she asked, "So what are our next steps in the interview process?" And the interviewer looked at her and said, "Oh, my gosh. I forgot this was an interview." Y'all, this is a really positive and great thing, so I wanted to provide just some quick tips on how you can start to do this, and I want you all to think about how you actually plan and prepare and facilitate meetings in your current job. #1, you go into this meeting with an agenda. What is your agenda? What are the topics of discussion, right? What are those things that you need to know? Things about the company, things about the position, things about the person that you are talking to. I'd say the most important thing with an agenda is having an actual purpose, right? So what is the purpose of you going into this interview? And don't think, "Okay, it's to get the job." No, no, no. The purpose of you going into the interview is to present yourself as the best possible candidate for this role, and you want to think through how to do that. Of course you will need to review the job description in detail. What I recommend is going through the job description line by line by line, and for each responsibility you need to have some clear examples in your current or previous experience in how you demonstrated and how you demonstrated those responsibilities. What else do you do? You need to understand the challenges. Again, you need to make sure you are solutions-focused. Make sure you're solutions-focused in this interview, and that will come with understanding that team's challenges, understanding that company's challenges. You can turn it into a meeting by making it a conversation and asking questions throughout the interview and not asking questions like, "Well, tell me about the day-to-day here," or, you know, "What is the culture like?" Ask some hard-hitting questions, such as "Tell me about the biggest challenges your team is facing right now as it relates to X, Y, and Z. Tell me about some of the challenges that you all are having as you implement these new technologies, as you all are going through this merger and acquisition, as you all are working with these clients in this particular industry?" Ask very specific questions. So understand those challenges. Ask what they have tried in the past. So they will tell you what their challenges are. [laughs] I've never--in my days as a recruiter, if someone were to ask me, I never had an issue with speaking to that 'cause, like, you know, when we have these challenges at work and you give us a chance to talk about it and complain a little bit, you know? Now, if you are interviewing with someone and they're like, "Oh, everything's perfect. We don't have any challenges here." Run. Just run. [laughs] Just run. So understand the challenges. Ask what they have tried in the past. Provide recommendations. Now, this is where you're going to come in as the best candidate for the job, because you are going to be able to ask questions such as "Have you all tried X, Y, and Z?" Right? But you need to actually go into this meeting already kind of knowing what those challenges are. If this is your second interview, your third interview, your fourth interview, best believe you have got to carry forward those conversations that you had in that first, second, or third round interview, because by the time you get to the last round or those couple last rounds, you gotta go in there like you are already on the team. Like, "Put me in the game, Coach. Seriously." So providing these recommendations, this is where your research comes in. You should be researching information about the company online, asking questions, networking--talking to people that work at that company internally, and it would be great if you knew someone on that team specifically. If you don't know anyone at the company, you should still try to have these conversations with folks that are in that industry that are in that particular role, even at another company. So this is where networking will come in handy. You have to make sure that you are getting to know professionals that are in your industry, particularly professionals with the job title of the positions that you are going after, and it also would be great to know some leaders and executives in that industry as well. They typically have been around a lot longer. They can tell you some of the trends, things to be mindful of as it relates to the challenges, as it relates to solutions and recommendations on how to move, you know, the team forward that you can use in that interview. So come into the interview with a 30-, 60-day, 90-day plan and get their thoughts on it. You have to completely own it. And, with that being said, I'll give you all an example. So I am a former recruiter. I spent some years managing recruiting for a public accounting firm headquartered in Charlotte, and I managed recruiting for two offices in Charlotte - an office in New York, an office in Jacksonville, Florida and Tampa, Florida, and I had about seven universities that I managed recruiting for. Now, I'll tell you all my full story one day of how I got this position. [laughs] I'm gonna save that for another episode because it was by--mm--luck. I don't even want to say luck. It was because I had proven myself, but I had one particular person that was rooting for me, and that was literally all I needed. But I actually came from the public accounting industry. I was an audit for a Big Four firm. So I didn't know that much about recruiting, I'll be honest with y'all. [laughs] I can say that now since I did get the job and I'm not, you know, doing that anymore, but I went into that interview with a whole recruiting strategy, with a whole recruiting plan. I asked very specific questions around "Tell me about your metrics. How do you all measure the success of your recruiting efforts here? How are those metrics being tracked? Who's tracking those? How is leadership staying engaged with what's going on as it relates to recruiting? Who is the person responsible for updating leadership? What are some of the loopholes in communications? What are some of the communication challenges with the candidates that you all are recruiting. What are the challenges as it relates to the universities that you are recruiting at?" So by the time I got this information, I would go into the next interview and I would bring up those very same things, but I would bring it up with solutions and ideas and, you know, recruiting ideas and different ways to keep leadership engaged, different ways to keep the universities engaged that will keep the firm at top of mind. So by the time I left those interviews, I literally got a call probably about--I was still in the car. I was still in the car leaving that interview, probably going back to my other job, when I had got the call that said, "Yes, you got the offer." That's because I went in there and I owned it and I was confident and I used my network. I talked to a lot of other recruiters, so I knew what it would take to actually be a very strong recruiter and how to add value. So if you're going into these interviews a little shy and timid, "Well, I don't know, I just hope I prove myself, and I hope I do a good job, and I don't want to say anything too crazy," you know, that, to me, is going to be a lack of confidence. Now, I get it, we want to be humble. We want to show humility, but when you go into that interview, like I said before, you gotta act like you're already on the team. So what else do you do after the business meeting? You follow up. So follow up as you would a business meeting, you know? "Points that we talked about. Here are some of the challenges we talked about. Here are some of the solutions we talked about, and here are the next steps," right? And then sometimes we will ask, "Well, can you tell me what the next steps are?" Look, you could say, "Hey, based on what we've talked about today, I think these should be our next steps. If I were to step into this role, these are some of the things that I would like to do." Now, this also needs to come with an agreement, so as you're giving your recommendations, solutions, ideas, et cetera, you want to make sure that other person--you know, you're getting that buy-in, so you kind of have to manage or, you know, respond to them based on how they're responding to you, right? So if you make a recommendation and they say, "Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, we should--I like that," right? That needs to be the main point in your follow-up. So I hope this was helpful. You know, try to restructure these interviews as business meetings. Like I said, be confident. Be bold. Walk in there like you know what you're doing. Have an agenda. Understand their challenges. Understand what they've tried in the past. Provide recommendations. Create a 30-, 60-, 90-day plan and get their thoughts on it. Completely own that interview, and then follow-up. So I hope this all was helpful today. Again, thank you for listening. My name is Latesha Byrd with Living Corporate, and you can find me on social media, Instagram and Twitter, at Latesha, L-A-T-E-S-H-A, underscore Byrd, B-Y-R-D. That's all we have, and I will talk to you all next week.

On the thirty-second entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield helps us to determine the length of our resumes. With the average job posting getting 200+ applicants and recruiters scanning resumes for 6 seconds on average, getting to the point is definitely necessary, but he thinks that there is another factor we need to take into consideration - relevancy.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What is going on, y'all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week let’s talk about the length of your resume.Have you ever been told that your resume has to be 1-page? I get so many questions during my consultations on how long can their resume be. I think getting your resume to one page is definitely a good goal but I also understand that sometimes that’s just not possible.I definitely understand the logic behind a 1 page resume. With the average job posting getting 200+ applicants and recruiters scanning resumes for 6 seconds on average, getting to the point is definitely necessary, but I think there is another factor we need to take into consideration and that’s relevancy.I always tell my clients that there are a two things you want to consider before adding a second page. First, when it comes to things older roles, awards, certifications, and more try to be honest with yourself, are these things adding skills or experience that aren’t already represented by more recent roles OR are you holding on to it due to an emotional attachment. If it’s adding value, then keep it. But if you want it there because you think it brings you some sort of clout then I would reconsider keeping it on your resume because it may land you in the no pile. The second thing you should ask yourself is can you fill an entire page. I’m by no means a 1-page advocate but I do believe that if you are going to use a second page it needs to be filled with relevant content. If you have anything less than three quarters of a page, I would suggest you try to figure out a way to condense. While I can definitely see the benefit of a second page, I don’t recommend adding pages beyond that. Remember, this advice is for resumes. If you have a CV, that’s a little bit of a different story.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, twitter, and facebook at @layfieldresume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn!

Zach speaks with the founders of Dipper, Jacinta Mathis and Netta Jenkins, about the value of your personal voice. They also share their journeys that led them to create Dipper and talk about their plans for the platform in 2020.Connect with Jacinta and Netta on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know how we do, right? We come on, I say something like "What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate," and then I maybe remind y'all that we're a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, right? You should get the drift now. We're at, like, episode a hundred and something. Now, as you also should know by now, I'm bringing to y'all some more fire for ya head top, some dope guests. Now, this is really only the second time in the history of Living Corporate that we've interviewed two people at the same time, so, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to us for that, and I'm just really excited 'cause we're getting--I don't want to say two for the price of one 'cause that's kind of cheesy, right? But I'm saying we have two incredible guests, Netta Jenkins and Jacinta Mathis. Jacinta: Hey.Netta: Woo-hoo!Zach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, we're just gonna get straight into it. I'm not even gonna go through the whole intros 'cause y'alls bios, if I was to try to do it, you know what I'm saying, I'ma take up all the time. [Jacinta and Netta laugh] So for those of us who don't know y'all, please share a little bit about yourselves.Netta: Yeah. Jacinta, would you like me to start off? Or--Jacinta: Go for it, girl. Go for it.Netta: Okay. Well, I guess I'll start off with something fun. So I'm an Afrobeats living room dancer. Love Afrobeats.Zach: Oh, turn up. Come on, Afrobeats.Netta: [laughs] But aside from that, I'm the author of Self-Advocacy & Confidence for a Fearless Career, a Liberian-American woman. I'm a wife, a mom to a four-month-old baby boy and a six-year-old, and I'm also co-founder of Dipper. You know, by night, and vice president of global inclusion for Mosaic Group and Ask Applications by day in a full-time capacity. And I'd say, you know, in my full-time role I focus heavily on breaking systemic gaps and publicly challenging the notion of simply adding diversity doesn't equate to an inclusive and equitable work environment. And I'm just really excited about our Dipper platform that, you know, helps guide professionals to a better workplace, whether good, bad, or indifferent, and we're really, you know, giving people of color a voice, and we're holding companies accountable and helping them to be improved at the same time.Zach: Well, come on now, Mrs. Jenkins. I appreciate you.Netta: Hey, hey, hey. [laughs]Zach: Come on, now. Wait a minute, now. Let me give us this Flex bomb. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That was incredible.Jacinta: That was well-deserved. Well-deserved.Zach: Well-earned, absolutely. Okay, now go on, Jacinta. You got it.Jacinta: Yeah, so I am Jacinta Mathis. I am a Floridian who's stuck in New York. I've been here for about 11 years, and I don't think I'm leaving any time soon. I'm a data-driven performance marketer. I also focus on product growth and really feel like that's my specialty. And, you know, I'm working on building amazing products and then telling people about them. That's a lot of what I do. I'm also an evolving executive at an amazing tech company and co-founder of Dipper with Netta that we feel is revolutionary in providing this digital safe space for people of color that we have, you know, formed ourselves, with our own network. We're just making it something that can exist at scale and reach millions of people. And also I am, you know, a life partner and a mother to my amazing little family.Zach: Wait a minute, now. [Cardi B "ow" sfx] You know what I'm saying? [all laugh] So let's do this, let's do this. You talked a bit about who you are, but what's been y'all's journey, right, in becoming the entrepreneurs, public speakers, educators, corporate leaders, you know, and advocates that y'all are today? Like, how did y'all get to this place where y'all came together to really create Dipper? 'Cause I want to talk about Dipper as we talk about really, like, the value of your personal voice, but, like, how did we get here?Jacinta: Yeah. I think this is how Netta and I connected, because we were both raised--like, somebody nurtured us, watered us, so that we could become the sisters we are today, and really I think our legacy and what has happened before we even existed really helped mold the journey that we live today. And so, you know, I moved to New York to be a writer, and I ended up working at interning--when you could intern for free and it was legal--at PR agencies. I also worked in a restaurant, and I also had a gig at Target, and through working in a restaurant I met someone who was a media seller and kind of told me how ad agencies in the city work and really helped mentor me into a role at an ad agency, and that was kind of how my media buying, kind of advertising and marketing career really kicked off. And then when everything became digital I kind of literally fell into a tech company that ended up not being successful, but then I ended up at a really successful one where I met Netta and really helped build my career. And I think from there I realized, you know, tech would be a big part of everything that I did, and really this kind of experience and providing a safe place was something that I looked for everywhere I worked, and so when--just talking to Netta, it was like, "We have to make this a thing." Like, "It's something we have to do together."Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, when I start thinking of the journey, it dates back to when I was much younger, and so, you know, my African parents, they really stressed the importance of education and confidence at a very young age. So while kids were on their summer vacation or playing outside, I was the one reading books and creating goals. And I read a lot. I asked a lot of questions. Sometimes teachers were a little overwhelmed. Like, "Damn, she's asking too many questions." And then also being able to hear my parents tell me, "Listen, you have the ability to create change," really gave me the confidence to do anything that I had set my mind to. And so it started off by me becoming president of the freshmen class, where I was one of only three black people in the school at that time, to heading off to college, graduating in three years instead of four. Just, like, really being ambitious in all of my goals and then starting a casting company in college, and really that was to create a safe space for women to model and act in the entertainment industry. Because obviously it's very--it's, like, predominantly male-driven when it comes to, you know, the clients. And then business led me to Boston, where I completed my MBA, and off I was after that to New York, because predominantly a large amount of my clients were located in New York. But unfortunately there came a point where, you know, my business that I had grown in college and had expanded was no longer sustainable, and so I started looking at technology recruiting contract opportunities because I just couldn't see myself in a full-time opportunity immediately after owning my own business. I'm like, "How am I gonna be able to report to somebody?" So that whole concept in my head, I just couldn't wrap my head around that, but I've always been passionate about technology like Jacinta, and data, and specifically providing opportunities for people. Love seeing people win, and that led me into my contract recruiter role with the current company that I'm with today. That turned into a full-time opportunity, and I was able to jump from level to level in a matter of four years, and now at a VP level--[cha-ching sfx]--uh-oh. Cha-ching. [both laugh] But, you know, I think what it is is there's a lot of people that ask me, like, "Netta, how were you able to get to the level that you're at so quickly?" And it's really about building meaningful relationships. I think executives were able to trust me. Executives saw that the employees trusted me. They liked the boldness, sort of the non-sugarcoating attitude in "We're not gonna have quotas here." You know, "We really have to dig deep and deal with some of these systemic gaps." And then just simply the ability to empower employees to create change, and I always say that the key to success has been persistence, working smart, and really never quitting, and I'm really, really excited that I'm working alongside with Jacinta. We worked together at the same organization for many years, and she's phenomenal. So to be able to have, you know, a teammate that you can learn from every single day is truly inspiring, and so I'm happy that we're in this place where we're at now.Zach: Well, come on, then. You know, I just--this is dope, and you've already kind of touched on it a little bit, but you said earlier about, like, using technology to help people. I'm really curious about, you know, your passion around that, because there's been multiple studies shown that even though the world is becoming more and more technically advanced and we're seeing--like, we're seeing opportunities open up within these tech spaces, [but] we're not necessarily seeing opportunities for black and brown people growing at an equal rate, right? Like, we're still seeing a bit of like, "Hm." I don't want to say segregation. We're not seeing, like, any type of uptick when it comes to opportunities and employment and progression and succession, and so I think that's really awesome that we have people in these spaces who are advocating for those voices and those people. So check this out. Today we're talking about--I said all of that as a digression in this mug. Okay, so now, today we're talking about the value of your personal voice. So, like, when did each of you realize that your voices mattered, especially within the workplace? Like, was there ever a moment where you were like, "Man, wait a minute. I can actually speak up and it mean something."Jacinta: Netta, do you want to go first? Or do you want me to? [both laugh]Netta: No, you go for it.Jacinta: I think--I feel like it's fortunate and unfortunate it took other people recognizing it before I really recognized it. I think Netta kind of touched on this a little bit too. Like, people will talk about you when you're not in the room, right? And hopefully those people are sponsors and will advocate for you, and I think it really became a point where it was like, "Oh, Jacinta should be here." Like, literally getting grabbed and brought into a meeting, you know? Or someone saying, "Oh, we think we should run with this product change. What does Jacinta think?" Or, you know, really wanting to understand your input and value, and then when you present something seeing people jump into action or, you know, really seeing change happen. I think that's when I realized--I was like, "Oh, wait. People hear me. Like, they're really listening to me, and they're really taking what comes out of my mouth as word and that it's something that we should do," and I think sometimes, especially as a black woman in a corporate space, you may tell yourself to, like, mute your voice a little bit, but I was finding that what is kind of the stereotype was what people wanted me to embrace in my own way, especially--'cause sometimes you're in a room and nobody's saying "This is wrong." So they're like, "Oh, we know Jacinta will call it a spade," you know? [both laugh] So it's really having people around me that helped empower me to realize, like, my voice mattered and that people were hearing me, and then I just got more--you get more comfortable in that, and then having your network--like, I had Netta, and sometimes we would talk to each other, and I would bounce an idea off of her or show her a presentation before it went before the executive team or the board, just because I was like, "Well, what do you think about this?" And that helped me strengthen my voice too in the workplace.Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think Jacinta's spot on with that. It's really about, you know, being able to lean on those people within the organization that you trust that empower you to have that voice, you know, to be bold, to speak up for yourself, to advocate for yourself and advocate for others. And so, you know, Jacinta was definitely that sounding block for me, and she still is even as business partners. We're always bouncing ideas off of each other, work-related situations like, "Hey, how should we get through this? How should we handle this?" And it's easier that way, right? It's harder when you're alone, and that's how come I think Jacinta and I both use the line "It really takes a village to create change and to get things moving." And Jacinta is my village, [laughs] so I'm thankful for that. I also feel early on as well I started noticing that I had a little voice and my voice mattered somewhat. Like I mentioned before, I was one of three in high school, and in middle school I was, like, one of two black people, and I remember just, you know, a whole bunch of racial slurs said. We were the only black family in that neighborhood at the time. It was a pretty, like, affluent neighborhood, and I remember going home to my mom and crying about some of the things that were said to me, and the one pivotal thing that my mom said to me is, "I didn't bring you on this earth to cry. I brought you here to create change." And I kid you not, that has been the most powerful line for me throughout my life, 'cause I always think about that. I'm like, "Wait, hold on. My mom brought me on this earth to create change." You know? And so when I got into high school, that's the reason why I ran for president of the freshmen class, because I wanted to create change. I knew of, you know, the inequities and the challenges that were going on. I was tired of them just putting up a picture of Martin Luther King and thinking like, "All right, we're done with Black History Month!" And then that's it, you know? I was really ready to challenge that, and I did, and I think that really prepared me for the work that I do now.Zach: So then let's talk a little bit about the work, right, that y'all are doing now, and about Dipper, right? And, like, by the way, the website is super fire. I very much so enjoyed the layout. I liked it a lot. But, like, how did this passion that y'all have and this realization, this self-realization of your voice and it mattering, play into the creation of Dipper?Jacinta: Yeah. It's so weird. I feel like every answer we're gonna be talking about our parents, right? [both laugh]Zach: That's fine.Jacinta: Yeah. So my dad was a chief diversity and inclusion officer for--I would say in the early '90s, before, like, diversity and inclusion was a thing--Zach: Your dad?Jacinta: Yeah, my father.Zach: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. So you said your father was a chief inclusion and diversity officer in the '90s? [record scratch sfx, all laugh]Jacinta: You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." Yeah. And so, like, before it was really a thing. He was a Fortune 500 company and pushing them to make strides to create these more inclusive workplaces, not only for their employees but also for their vendors, and just seeing a lot of those, like, conversations happen at our dinner table--my mother was an attorney at a law firm, and I think she was one of the only black attorneys, and she was also a female. And so just kind of--these are the conversations that you would come home to for dinner, and just hearing about the things that they were dealing with and how, you know, how they would get through it and how they would grow and maybe even how they decided to exit, you know? And then working with Netta and really seeing how we built this village and this corporate space to talk to each other about raises, promotions, breastfeeding advice, whatever, you know? We were leaning--although it's important to lean in, sometimes you also have to lean on somebody, [and i oop sfx] and so we had to lean on each other, you know? So we met--I think it was lunch. I don't want to be cliche and say it was brunch. And we were just, you know, articulating how this needed to become something that other people could participate in, and with our backgrounds in tech it just seemed like the right path. It seemed like the thing that we should do. And I think in my heart I wanted Netta to be like, "That was a horrible idea," [laughs] but she was like, "Girl, yes. We have to do this," and, you know, immediately we connected with a company that we knew--he actually went to college with me and is an alpha, and [I'm an AK?], and so I reached out to him immediately and was like, "We need a dope website," and they were able to work with us to create that. And I really feel like it's been, like, this catalyst that has helped us launch and helped us reach so many people. Zach: Well, shout-out to the Divine Nine, you know what I'm saying? [they laugh] I respect how you slipped that in there. You know, I'm a [?], but I always respect my--Jacinta: [laughing] It was not intentional.Zach: No, no, no, but it just comes out, you know?Jacinta: This is true. It just leaps out, yes. [laughs]Zach: Can you--I know we're gonna get to Netta's side, but I just want to pause really fast. I'm gonna respectfully ask that you tell your sister, Kamala Harris, to promote this episode when it comes out. We won't use any type of logos, so don't sue us please. But if you could just--[all laughing]Jacinta: I will [?] her right now. I will slide in her DMs. [laughs]Zach: Please. If you could. We'll even--I was about to joke and say we'll even put, like, some [?]--but I don't want any type of [Law and Order sfx], you know? No issues.Jacinta: Yes, I respect that.Zach: Okay. Well, cool, I appreciate the answer. Netta, please go ahead.Netta: Yeah, no, I--oh, my gosh. I don't have much to add other than Jacinta was definitely spot on. That's exactly how it happened, and we're really excited about this--you know, overall excited about this platform because it gives people a chance to really share their experiences, and also it gives us a chance to hold companies accountable if they are not doing it right. It gives us a chance to guide professionals of color in the right direction. It's funny - I'm a part of, you know, many different Slack channels. One in particular, Black Tech Women, and just today there were a couple of people that were just talking about, "Hey, I wish I could gain insight on this particular company," or "Do you guys know what's happening to this technology company?" You know, "How's the culture there for people of color?" And I'm like, "Listen, head to ourdipper.com, because we definitely provide that type of insight." So there's a lot more people that's looking for that. They don't want to waste their time in organizations that aren't going to value them, and we're really excited to be, you know, launching something like this that can push professionals of color in the right direction.Zach: I know we're kind of talking, like, around it. Like, we're saying, like, you know, at a high level what it is, but, like, from what we talked about, Netta, in our conversation--like, help me understand. If we were to, like, kind of compare it to something, is it almost like Glassdoor but, like, for the black people? And brown people?Netta: I don't want to say Glassdoor, right? We could say maybe, like, if Glassdoor, Yelp, and Black Lives Matter had a baby. Zach: Oh, snap. Okay, got you. I got you.Jacinta: That was good.Netta: Can I get a boom or a bang?Zach: Oh, hold on. Hold on, I apologize. Hold on, hold on, hold on. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? I got y'all. I got y'all. I was gonna make, like, a really bad joke and say, like, "Is it like Vibraniumdoor?" Jacinta: [laughs] And it's really focused--I think Netta and I--and this is all based on the type of people you have in your network, but, like, I know with my girls, like, you can complain--we can complain to each other. We can vent, but after you're done talking, they're gonna be like, "So what are you doing?" Like, "What are you doing? What are we doing? What are you doing different?" Like, "Are you gonna make a move?" And I think that's where we saw the gap. It's like, "Yes, we want you to vent, we want you to have a safe space," but we also think it is time and there needs to be a space for someone to ask an organization, "What are you doing? "What are you doing to fix it?" "What are you doing to make this better?" "What are you doing to retain these talented people who are exiting, and they all happen to be brown?" You know, just really addressing critical issues and making that information, you know, accessible to them but within reason. Accessible and actionable, you know? 'Cause this is a safe place, and it is an anonymous platform, you know? And that is the key. We want people to feel protected, because they are, and I think a lot of times we don't speak out. And Netta often talks to me about this, like, "People aren't speaking out because they don't feel safe." And so that was very important to us, that this community is our top priority, and, like, that is where we want our goal to be.Zach: So it kind of sounds--again, while keeping people safe, it's like you really got receipts on people. So let's just say, like, if--I don't know, I ain't tryna mess up my sponsorship dollars so I'm not gonna say a company, but let's just say Insert Company Here was like, "We're mad inclusive," and y'all come back with the receipts looking like [haha sfx]. Like, "No, you're not," you know what I'm saying? We got all these people saying there's some issues you need to shape up. But we also talked about the fact that, like, it's not just for airing organizations out. It also can be a place where people are also giving positive feedback and stories, right?Netta: Right.Jacinta: Absolutely.Netta: And overall, we want these companies improved, you know? If they're not doing well, we want to be able to provide them with the solutions to solve that issue. We're not leaving them high and dry, and, you know, I think that's the difference with other platforms or a Glassdoor or a Yelp. ["stupid" sfx plays in the background] We're looking to improve these companies. Jacinta: Mm-hmm. And you want to know where--like, you want to know if some place is a good place for you to go to, and we get--just as many bad reviews as we get we get good ones, and, you know, we get people who are like, "I've had a great experience here. I've been able to grow. I've been developed. I have an amazing mentor. I want more people who are brown and more people of color to come here. I don't want to be the only one." You know? So I want to see them here more and know about the opportunities here. Zach: No, it's really cool, and I do hear your point around, like, you're not just gathering the data just to gather the data. Like, there's a consulting play to it too, right? Where you then say, "Look, this is what people are saying good and bad. Here are our recommendations," and then you're able to actually come alongside them to your point and actually, like, be a partner. And I think it's interesting because there's so many organizations out there, even as we have these group meetings and Slacks and folks are venting and stuff, [and] there really has yet to be one central location where we'll be like, "Mm-mm. Dawg, don't go over there. Mm-mm." You know what I'm saying? But it should be like that. Like, you know, the Lion King remake came out. People want to act like the Lion King remake wasn't fire. I thought it was great, but whatever. So remember, like, when Mufasa was, like, looking over the cliff, right, and he was talking to Simba, and he was like, "Everything the light touches is your kingdom," and Simba was like, "Oh, snap. What about over there?" He said, "That is the elephant graveyard. You don't ever go over there. Relax." That's pretty much like--you know, that's an opportunity for Dipper too, but, like, we don't really have that. We don't have a collective, you know, Pride Land overview of the workplace as it were.Netta: Yeah, and companies--I believe it was last year, McKinsey and Company did a study, and, like, companies are spending more than $8 billion on diversity and inclusion efforts. And we're like, "Who is that benefiting?" Zach: It ain't benefiting nobody. We've still got blackface on company pencils.Jacinta: Exactly. We're not on your board of directors. Few and far between of us are CEOs of the Fortune 500, 1000 companies, and, you know, we get pings--Netta and I get pings all of the time, especially in, like, the VC world, of people saying, "Do you know somebody who could be my chief of operations? Do you know somebody who could be my chief of people?" And we're like, "Absolutely." Like, I will respond to people with a list, LinkedIn profiles connected, you know? Because we feel we are here, we exist, and there just really needs to be this space for us. And there are people also who have done this before us, you know? There are people who may have been peers to my father [kids applause sfx] and they have a lot of insights to share, but they don't have a place to share them, you know? So it's kind of like we can't all go to the conference, we can't all go to the talk, but you could participate in our website and go to ourdipper.com.Netta: Right, and I think companies definitely have this warped perception of that "Okay, well, if we have a few black and brown faces, we've won," you know? "Let's put out the PR," and obviously it's much deeper than that like Jacinta was saying. There's the equity piece. Are we giving people the access and the exposure to not only move up but to have a voice and are able to lead, you know, in their own way? A lot of the times, when we hear about black and brown folks' experiences that are in high-level positions, they're still kind of oppressed, right? They really don't have that power to lead and that confidence. So, you know, those are key data points that we definitely want to bring out and share, again so that these companies are improved.Zach: Man, you said a lot right there, you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to, like, wear out the Flex bomb, so I'ma just give it a little break. [all laugh] And you know--this is the thing, right? There is a--I don't know. I feel like sometimes, you know, these companies, they think they've just done SO much when they put, like, two black people in charge, you know what I'm saying? And we're like, "Yeah, but there's nobody else." And then these two--like you just said, these two black people, like, they're not really doing anything, or you just kind of shuffle 'em out there and they just kind of say some canned message that you wanted them to say. They're not really moving the needle in no kind of way. You talk to 'em and they're looking back at you--you know, they're looking back at you like that blank face on Get Out, you know what I'm saying? You go in for the dap, they grab your fist. You're like, "What happened?" Like, what's going on, you know what I'm saying? So--Jacinta: Or they sometimes don't have the support. They really don't have that support, so they're feeling alone, you know? Even if there's just two, two of you, it's like you may not have that guidance that you need to feel confident to really make those moves that you may want to make, and I think that happens with a lot of people.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. 'Cause I'ma tell you for me, like, you know, I'm in a position--and often times I'm one of the only ones in these spaces, but if I see one--if I see somebody that looks like me but maybe is, like, I don't know, my dad's age, I'm like, "Oh, snap, what's going on?" And they don't say anything back to me or they kind of give me some, you know, guarded response, I go--now, outside I'm smiling, but on the inside I'm like [damn, damn, damn sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just, like, what's going on?Jacinta: Yeah, and that's--and I wonder too, like, how many times are we, in these leadership roles and scared, you know, to--'cause I know I've walked in meetings, and this is me jokingly, like, you know, if there are more than three of us gathered, I'm gonna make an announcement. [laughs]Zach: What you gonna announce?Jacinta: Like, if we're at work and I walk in a meeting and there's three of us, I'm like, "Oh, we're meeting." You know, "This is happening." You know, I'm excited about it, but I do think there's definitely a category of people who are kind of working in fear, but part of that is just--like we were talking about earlier, knowing your voice, feeling confident and being able to use your voice, and that's part of it. Like, you're just at a place where you don't feel like it's safe enough for you to even have a voice.Netta: Right. I mean, I've even had people say to me they've been nervous to connect with, you know, another black or brown person in the workspace because they didn't want others to feel like they were trying to take over, right? So it would be--like, they would do a little silent text, like, "Meet me outside," and I'm like, "What?" You know? And so that happens a lot too. Zach: No, it does, and I think--how much of that, I wonder, is, like, also generational though? 'Cause, like, it gets to a certain point--and what excites me about Dipper and what I'm hearing is it kind of, like, removes the excuse of white gaze, right? Like, I'm not--white GAZE. G-A-Z-E, y'all. Gaze, you know what I'm saying? White gaze. Yeah, so just the idea of, you know, you needing to kind of, like, be performative in some way or hide a part of who you are, right? Because, you know, come on. Like, really? I mean, you know, we was kings and stuff, but I'm saying, like, two of us can't take over an entire Fortune 50 company. Like, come on now. Like, I should be able to have a conversation with you in the elevator without, you know, y'all thinking we plotting the revolution, right? Stokely Carmichael is not in here. Huey P. Newton is not here.Jacinta: I'm also like, "So what if we are?" [all laugh]Zach: I'm saying. I'm looking back at them like [Cardi B hehe sfx], you know what I'm saying?Jacinta: Because some of it is part--you know, what I think I have kind of lived by in the workplace is if I'm exceeding my performance metrics, if I am busting my tail to, like, meet goals, is there really a boundary? I mean, if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, is there a boundary? Now, sometimes there are hurdles for you being able to successfully do what you're doing, and that needs to be addressed, but, you know, I think if you have a team full of people who are brown, but they're the top team in the company, nobody--people see green, you know? And nobody is going to say anything. I think the problem is when there's a board seat available, people see their friends in their immediate network, and those people all look alike, and so it's like, "How do we get into that flow?" And really we have to do it working together, you know? It can't just be the one person. It really is going to take a lot of us working together. 'Cause who's gonna tell you--like, wh's gonna give you the heads up that, like, "Oh, I know that's your salary, but every other president in the company is making five times that." [laughs] You know? Like, you're going to need those types of insights, and sometimes you're not going to know that if you don't have [?]--Netta: [? drive that?].Jacinta: Yeah, exactly. Zach: So let's talk a little about 2020, right? Like, what are y'all most excited about that Dipper is gonna be doing, like, in 2020? Like, what has y'all, like, really going?Jacinta: Mm-hmm. For me, because I love tech and I love data, that's what I think about almost every night, and I think in 2020 our product is really going to evolve. You know, right now we have the ability to go onto our site, write a review, share their experience, and in 2020 it'll be even so much greater and so much more, and that is something that really excites me about what's to come. You know, the more people who are joining our community, the more in-depth we can make that community experience, and the things that we want to do to provide people with insights on, you know, like we said, salary, available jobs, are just really exciting to me, and all of that data and information that people will have at their fingertips just makes me really looking forward to the new year.Zach: So this has been a dope conversation and we appreciate both of y'all being here. Again, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to everything that y'all are doing. Shout-out to Dipper, you know what I'm saying? I really enjoyed this conversation. I've enjoyed the soundbites. Have y'all enjoyed the soundbites? I've enjoyed my own soundbites - have y'all enjoyed the soundbites?Netta: Yes.Jacinta: Absolutely.Zach: Okay, great. You know what we haven't done, you know what I'm saying, we have not really given y'all the respect of, you know, these air horns, so Sound Man, go ahead and put these air horns right HERE. [air horns sfx] You know, it's just a compliment. It's a thing that we do. It's customary, you know what I mean? It's been over--it's almost, like, two years, and we've been playing these air horns for the good guests. Now, we haven't had any bad guests, but I'm just saying, sometimes we play the air horns just a little bit louder, you know what I mean? And y'all are on the louder side, so we appreciate y'all. Before we go, any shout-outs or parting words?Netta: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having us on this platform. This was awesome. We're really excited about, you know, the partnerships, the meaningful relationships that we're creating, you know, with different organizations, and we're really excited about our full dynamic platform that's gonna be revealed to the world. This is truly gonna be game-changing and helpful for people of color that are really looking to be guided in the right direction.Jacinta: Absolutely, and I mirror that sentiment exactly. We're so thankful for this opportunity and to be able to speak with you and your audience, and, you know, really just shout-out everybody, all of you who have left a review, who have sent us your feedback and cheering us on, patting us on the back, and even those of you that have challenged us--and maybe even shaded us a little bit--you know, it's all fuel.Zach: Big up to our haters one time.Jacinta: [laughs] We love it, yeah. You can't live without 'em, and, you know, it's been an amazing ride, and it's just the beginning, and, you know, we're just incredibly thankful.Zach: Well, first of all, look, we appreciate y'all. And look, y'all, if you're listening to this--I want everybody to stop, okay? If you're in your car, you know what I'm saying, pull over to the side of the road, okay? Put your hazards on and go to ourdipper.com. This is not even an ad. It's just for the love, you know what I mean? Like, y'all didn't pay us nothing, you know what I mean? It's just off the muscle. So go to ourdipper.com. And you go ahead and just scroll down, you know what I mean, and at the bottom what you're gonna see is--it's gonna say "Need advice? Please take a few moments to provide some insights about your current workplace and experience." Now, look, some of y'all know that Kathy in accounting has been getting on your nerves, okay? Some of y'all know y'all ain't been getting that raise that you need, and some of y'all know you're not having a great experience. Take the time. Go on ourdipper.com. Provide the input. You're not only helping yourself, you're helping everybody that looks like you. And maybe some folks that don't look like you, you know what I'm saying? But lift as you climb. Okay, now, look, this has been a dope episode. Y'all know you've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out anywhere on LivingCorporate--we're on all the platforms. iHeartRadio, Spotify, Soundcloud, YouTube, you know, Pandora. What's another streaming--Google Play, you know what I'm saying? We out here is my point. We active, you know what I mean? Jacinta, 'cause you said you were an [fraternity/sorority], right? [all laugh] We active, you know what I'm saying? You know, we ain't just show up on Homecoming Week, you know what I'm saying, giving people problems. Like, we actually--Jacinta: No t-shirt wearing. [laughs]Zach: Exactly. We're not no [?], you know what I'm saying? We earned ours, you know what I'm saying? We went through the [?]. Don't play with us. [both laugh] So the point is, you know, we appreciate y'all. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. If you have any questions you want to email us, you know what I'm saying, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also just DM us if you have any questions and you want to shout us out. If you want us to shout somebody out for y'all, hit us up. Let's see. Website? Living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, you also could do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates, y'all... we don't have livingcorporate.com, though. Not yet. Not yet.Jacinta: Soon come.Zach: Soon come, hey. [both laugh] Let's see here. That's it. You've been listening to Zach, and of course you've been listening to Netta and Jacinta, co-founders and movers and shakers of Dipper and Edge Snatchers. Peace.

On the seventh entry of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, graciously shares ten pieces of advice regarding changing your mindset to stop settling in your career. We have to stop doubting that we're good enough for the jobs that we ultimately desire!Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. If you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you're in the right place. I'm here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking about changing your mindset to stop settling in your career. If you all have been listening to the previous episodes, you know that I am a career coach. I've worked with hundreds of professionals over the past few years, just helping them identify what their dream careers are and how to actually go out and secure them, and one thing that I have realized over the course of being a coach is that a lot of us really struggle with changing our mindset around what we deserve and knowing what we truly deserve and not settling in our career. If you are settling in your career and you know it, this podcast is for you. There's a few tips that I have on how I want you all to think about what your life would look like if you were actually doing something that you truly loved. The main thing that you'll hear when you tell someone that you are looking for a new job is "All right, you've got to get your resume together, make sure you get your LinkedIn together, and go and reach out to these recruiters," right? Like, that's the advice we typically hear, but no one truly talks about your mindset and being mentally prepared to actually think about looking for a new job, going about the job search, thinking about and putting energy and effort and time into figuring out what it is you want to do. Then on top of that you have to go and talk to people, you've got to apply to these jobs, sit around and wait for interviews. I mean, it is a whole thing. It's not just as easy as "Boom, get my resume done. Boom, get my LinkedIn done." Right? And one thing that I've heard a lot of people say recently, and my clients have said this before--and they know I will always get on you if you say this--"I'm hoping this job will give me a chance." If you've ever said that before, this is for you. I want you to change your mindset around that. You have so much more control over your career than you give yourself credit for. So instead of asking yourself or telling yourself "I hope this job will give me a chance," ask yourself "Do I want to give them a chance?" Okay? Again, you went to school for your degree, your Master's degree. You have the qualifications. You have skills. You have experience. No one can take that away from you, you know? It is yours, and we have to stop doubting that we're good enough for this career that we ultimately desire. We are quick to talk ourselves out of applying to jobs if we don't meet all of the requirements. You know, we talk ourselves out of things that we deserve, and we spend over a third of our lives at work. So we have to make sure that we are operating at our highest, highest power. This I have seen more with women, and it has been, you know, statistically proven that women will actually not apply to positions--or I will say they are less likely to apply to positions if they don't meet all of the requirements, where as men are more inclined to apply to positions, whether they meet, you know, 50% or 60% of them. So again, just know that you have so much more control over your career than you're giving yourself credit for. So I just have ten tips that will help you with just changing your mindset. One is know that this whole thing is bigger than you. I ended up leaving corporate to--and I was a recruiter--but I ended up leaving to focus on, you know, leading and growing my career consulting agency, because I realized that I could make much more of an impact if I were out, you know, doing this on my own than being held back by that position that I was in. I thought about who would not be helped or who would not be impacted if I didn't take that leap of faith. So just know that, you know, your career, what you are set to do, is so much bigger than you. It is also about the lives that you will change, you know, the difference that you will make. So ask yourself. If staying in that role that you feel is holding you back won't get you to actually make that difference that you are meant to do. The other thing as well is if you are, you know, a parent, or if you have children, if you have people that are looking up to you and looking to you for guidance and looking to you for support, are you--by not doing something that you love in your career, is that affecting how you operate at home as a wife, as a husband, as a mother or father? So just know that if you are actually doing something that you love, that will--and your professional life is going well--that may in turn create a more advantageous lifestyle, personal lifestyle, and will allow you to show up and show up for others much more differently and also healthier. Number two. I hear this a lot. "I don't know what my passion is." Right? And so that one thing might keep you a little bit stagnant. Just know that a lot of us don't really figure it out until later in life. Don't beat yourself up about not knowing your passion, but think about the things that you daydream about. Think about the things that you do outside of work, you know? Think about where your mind goes, and start paying attention to your thinking patterns at work. Where do you see yourself really being in your zone, you know? What do your coworkers always compliment you on for doing a great job at, you know? What do your family and friends come to you for for help? Even outside of work. You may not know what your passion is just yet, but that doesn't mean that it's not out there. It just hasn't yet been discovered, but we are still, you know, growing, even throughout our 20s, throughout our 30s, so your passion may change over time. But don't let that hold you back from settling in your career. Number three - envision the life that you want. What would your ideal day look like if you were doing something that you loved? You know, we don't allow ourselves the opportunities to dream anymore, you know? Dreaming was something we did as children I guess, right? And then we graduate and start working, and corporate America just beats us down and--[laughs]--we kind of forget to dream and just get excited about our future and our career. So this is something that I have all of my clients do is write a vision statement down. Envision that life that you want. What would be your ideal day? This is going to sound a little cheesy, but visualization exercises are great. Close your eyes. Think about who you would be with, what you would be doing, who you would be working with. Who would you be doing it for, right? And really push yourself to get out of your comfort zone as you're thinking about this, and write down what you see. I had a career coach that I had been working with, and we recently got reconnected earlier this year, and he actually asked me to do this while were on the phone. And I kind of laughed and was like, "What? I'm not closing my eyes and dreaming. What are you talking about?" He was like, "Girl, just do it." [laughs] So it kind of took me a few seconds to get into it, but then, as I started to really allow myself to dream, I saw myself speaking in front of hundreds of thousands of people internationally and, you know, to be honest, that's something that I've always wanted, but because I haven't really dreamed, I've been so stuck in the just day-to-day of the work and just trying to run the business, you know? I haven't really dreamed about what I want for my life, you know, a year or months down the road. And ever since I envisioned that, one I've been more intentional about, you know, getting speaking opportunities, and I'm starting to get so much more nowadays. So visualize that. Write it down, okay? Number four. Write down what you want in your next job. This is something that I have all of my clients do as well. I call it your career values. Just do [?] a list of what you want in your next job. What type of benefits do you want? Do you want a flex schedule? Do you want to work remote? Do you want to travel 50% of the time? Do you want to lead a team? You know, do you want to--if you don't want to lead a team, do you want to be a sole contributor, you know? But write down what you want in your next job. That will allow you to make sure that you're asking the right questions and you're being very intentional about the companies, the jobs that you're focused on, but think about what you really want, you know? If you are just applying to jobs that you think, you know, "Well, I meet the qualifications. Let me just apply without really taking into consideration if that job is right for [me]," that may allow you to settle again. So think about what it is that you want. I have all of my clients do this, and they all kind of struggle with it, you know, at first, because no one really asks you, like, "What is it that you want," you know? So I love to hear what are some of those things that you come up with, and if you can get that list up to 30 or 40, that would be awesome. Number five: practice bragging out loud and get confident in that. Men do this all of the time, [laughs] particularly white men. So practice bragging out loud, but first do an inventory. Do an inventory of all of your accomplishments over your career. You know, start tracking that, you know, every single week or every single month throughout your career. I call it a brag sheet. And if you ever start doubting your greatness or who you are and what you deserve, you can always go back and reference that brag sheet. That will allow you to just increase your confidence so that you know, "Look, I did all of this stuff right here. I'm definitely much, much deserving of my dream job." Think about the barriers that are holding you back. This is number six. Think about the barriers that are holding you back, and when I say holding you back I mean holding you back from going after your next job, going after your dream job, that's holding you back and keeping you in that position of settling, keeping you stagnant. I will hear this from my clients [?]. "They promised me a promotion six months down the road, twelve months down the road." Just think about what you could be missing out on, what you could have already gotten, if you were to step out and try something new, a new role. Let's say--it's September now, right, and you're waiting on a bonus in December. If that bonus is $5,000, I promise you when you are going after your next job, negotiate. Tell them, "Hey, I really want to work here. However, my current job is giving me a bonus. I'm expecting to receive it in December. It's $5,000. What can we all do here to compensate for this bonus that I will be missing out on?" Right? Problem solved. So write down what those barriers are, and if you can write down those barriers, you can start to identify some solutions. Number seven: practice doing some things out of your comfort zone unrelated to your career. And sometimes I'll just tell my clients like, "Hey, just drive a different way home from work. Go to a new restaurant. Go to a new park. Try a new hobby." You know? "Go to a meet-up." Do something out of your comfort zone so that you can get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Another thing you can do is get clear on another area of your life. Maybe it's finances, you know? Getting clear on your finances, getting in control of that. Maybe you're needing to clean up your space, your living space. What are those other areas of life not tied to professional goals where you could use some organization, you could use some control? And that may help you to kind of clear your mind when it comes to your career. Number eight: communicate what you want and what you're looking for when you're networking. Think about your career values, as you're going to write down, and just know that, and tell people, like, "This is the type of job that I want. I want to be able to travel. I need a remote environment. I need a flex schedule." Right? Like, just be bold and state your needs. Be clear and specific. And the other thing that I would say here too is if you don't know what you want, you're closer to figuring out what you do want. Number nine: know that doing it with fear is better than not doing it at all. You don't want to live with regrets in your career, and if you have been regretting, you know, staying in this job for so long and not looking at something new, then do it afraid. Number ten is the last thing here. It's work with a career coach that focuses on mindset. Now that I have been coaching for quite some time, I have added a mindset component into my program because I'm realizing that we have to get our mindsets all the way together first, because that is essentially the thing that will keep us stagnant and settling. So, you know, work with a coach. Shameless plug. [laughs] But you do need to really think about your mindset, knowing that you deserve it. We all doubt ourselves. I have clients that earn well over six figures. They have Master's degrees. They have Ph.Ds in this and that, and they still struggle with this doubt, with impostor syndrome, with feeling like they're settling. So you need someone that's gonna help to pull that out of you and help you to step into your greatness. So I hope this was helpful. Feel free to reach out to me. I would love to hear feedback on this. And if you are going to take any of these tips, if you try 'em out, you know, just let me know. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter @Latesha_Byrd, L-A-T-E-S-H-A underscore Byrd. So hit me up. I would love to hear how it goes. So that is all that I have for today, so thank you all for listening, and I will see you next time. 

On the thirty-first installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield shares a couple of things you can do to set yourself up to have a great first week on the new job. The first week of work can be an exciting and fun time, but it can also be anxiety-inducing. Hopefully these tips help ease the transition into your new role!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What is going on, y' all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week let’s talk about a couple of things you can do to set yourself up to have a great first week on the new job.The first week of work can be an exciting and fun time but it can also be anxiety-inducing. A new place to navigate, new people to remember, and a whole new set of responsibilities to learn. There are a few things that I’ve done each time I’ve started a new job that have made my transition a little easier, and I hope they can help you kill it on your first week.Take notes, in fact, keep a small notebook near you as much as possible. During the first week on the job so much information is thrown at you that it’s difficult to remember it all. Onboarding tasks, names, meetings, new processes, and so much more. The more you document, the more you’ll have to refer back to later.Take some time to get familiar with the office. There’s nothing worse than the sudden panic when you have a meeting in a minute but you don’t know where the conference room is. Take the time in the first couple of days to feel out the space and learn where your team typically meets.If you can, find an office buddy. Pairing up with someone who’s been in the office and is at or around your level of seniority, will help you acclimated and help get your questions answered.Last, but definitely not least try to learn the names and positions of the people you see or interact with often. It’s the worst when people greet you by name and you don’t have a clue who they are or what they do. Committing this info to memory not only makes the office feel more like home, but it reduces anxiety and helps you figure out who to go to when you need help with certain things.Hopefully these tips help ease the transition into your new role.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, twitter, and facebook at @layfieldresume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn!

Zach sits down with award-winning author and race and gender empowerment expert Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever to talk about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Dr. Avis also shares some advice for black and brown women who are still struggling to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work.Connect with Avis on her website and through social media! Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInCheck out her book, How Exceptional Black Women Lead, on Amazon!Read her piece on NBC BLK! Black Women, Work and the Normalcy of DisrespectTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every episode we try to bring y'all something special, right? We either have an influencer, an educator, a speaker, an author, you know, a mover, a shaker, you know? And today we're actually blessed to have all of those things and more with our guest, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever. Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever is an Award-Winning Author, International Speaker, Political Commentator, and Race & Gender Empowerment Expert. As a serial entrepreneur, Dr. Avis is the founder of the Washington DC Boutique Consulting Firm, Incite Unlimited, along with The Exceptional Leadership Institute and World Changers Media, LLC. Dr. Avis’ organizations offer leadership, diversity & inclusion, entrepreneurship and media training along with communications strategy development and the implementation of impactful research. Her clients include major corporations, non-profit organizations and governmental entities based both domestically and abroad. So that's everywhere, okay? Now, look, some of y'all probably have already seen Dr. DeWeever 'cause she's had--she's been seen on a variety of platforms, including CNN, Fox News, PBS, C-SPAN, TV One, BET, BBC, NPR, Sirius XM Radio--come on, now--the Washington Post, the Atlantic, Essence, Ebony, and many, many more. She currently serves as a Contributor to The Huffington Post, Black Enterprise and NBC BLK. Now, look here. I gotta get something for that. [Cardi B "ow" sfx]. Okay, now look, Dr. Avis also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the Voter Participation Center, Women’s Voices. Women’s Vote, and the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation. In addition, she’s the Sr. Public Policy Advisor to the Black Women’s Roundtable, an Affiliated Scholar to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and a member of the Closing the Racial Wealth Gap Initiative. But in her most important role, she serves as a mother to two magnificent young men who will one day, undoubtedly, change the world. Dr. DeWeever, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Avis: I am doing [laughs]--I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.Zach: Oh, no, thank you for being here. Now look, I've got all these questions for you, but the first question, which I recognize has to be the question on top of everybody's mind... which one of these sandwiches is better? Is it the Chick-fil-A sandwich or is it the Popeyes sandwich?Avis: [laughs] Okay. Well, you know, everybody was talking about the whole Popeyes thing, so I just had to try it 'cause, you know, I'm just like, "What is all the commotion about?" Zach: Of course, of course.Avis: And I'm not a big Chick-fil-A person either, so--I have to be honest, I've never even tasted Chick-fil-A’s sandwich 'cause I'm not really that much into chicken sandwiches. I don't really get the purpose of putting the chicken in-between two pieces of bread.Zach: [horrified] Oh, no...Avis: I don't know. To me, the Popeyes chicken--okay, unpopular opinion, it was so darn crunchy I didn't really hardly get a taste. All I tasted was the outside.Zach: Oh, the skin.Avis: I try to stay away from fried stuff anyway, so.Zach: Well, good for you for taking care of yourself. You've got to manage your temple. Avis: Exactly.Zach: You know, it's a long-term investment.Avis: You ain't lying there. [both laugh] Hey, listen. If I would've had--if I had the metabolism I had 20 years ago, I'd be all the way in on a chicken sandwich. Since I don't, I'm leaving it alone, right?Zach: [laughs] Hey, I definitely understand. Now, I have yet to try it--well, let me take it a step back. I've yet to try the Popeyes sandwich, but I just--I don't know, man. It's hard. And this is not an ad, you know, and of course Chick-fil-A has their own problematic points of view as well, but I don't know. I just don't know, Doc. I don't know if I can get with that Popeyes. I don't know, but, you know, it's the total experience. Anyway, look, let's--all jokes aside, [both laugh] today we're talking about--we're talking about a few things, 'cause you have so much to offer, right? So we're gonna talk about a few things. We're talking about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Now, you've written a number of works that encapsulate perspectives and frustrations of black folks, specifically black women. Can you speak a bit about some of the works that you've written and how those challenges don't stop when you get to work?Avis: Absolutely. So I think probably my most significant work in this area is my book, "How Exceptional Black Women Lead," and with that I interviewed over 70 black women across the nation who--and some internationally--who are absolutely extraordinary in what they do, have ascended to amazing levels in terms of leadership success across a variety of different career platforms--or areas I guess is a better way of saying it--and I have to say, still all of them faced the double whammy, the double barrier, of being black and being a woman and having to sort of navigate the intersections of that all along the way to get to where they were, and I think the bottom line is that we all face, no matter where we are, no matter what industry we're in, whether we're corporate, whether we're non-profit, you know, whether we're entrepreneurs, those same--there are different rules that seem to be in play when it comes to us as compared to the other guys, and the bottom line is that we just--we recognize that as the reality, but we cannot let those bumps in the road become road blocks. We have to figure out how to navigate around them, and so what I've found inspiring by speaking with these amazing women is that they found a way to break through those road blocks, to get over those humps and bumps, and still make a way to the top. And if they can do it, other people can do it too.Zach: No, 100%, and it's so interesting too. I think that, you know, it's so easy--well, on my side, 'cause I'm a man, so I participate in patriarchy and male privilege, and I think about the more and more that I talk to--of course my mother as I've just gotten older and just, like, kind of think back about times when I was a child and some of the things she experienced at work, as well as just my black female colleagues. When I talk to them, just the amount of trauma and abuse and disrespect that, like, y'all endure and just casually put up with, right?Avis: Yeah. Oh, God.Zach: Right? And it's--like, every time I meet a black woman at work, she always has at least one extra degree more than I do, right? You know, you and I were having this conversation on Black Women's Equal Pay Day, and it just--there's a pattern here of black women being underpaid and overeducated, overqualified for the roles, and underpromoted, right? Undersponsored. You know, just to the point you're looking at 'em like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know? Just, like, "What's going on?" [both laugh]Avis: Oh, my god. That was perfect. [both laugh] Oh, it's so true. And in fact, you know, actually I wrote a piece for NBC BLK called Black Women and the Normalcy of Disrespect, and it talks exactly about this issue. Everything that you mentioned, plus on top of that the issue of often times having your brilliance basically gentrified by other people in the workplace, right? So doing the hard work, not getting the credit, seeing other people that you basically trained leapfrog over you, it has in many ways become normal, and I think--and that also is related to another fact, that black women are the leading demographic in the nation just to say "Bump this," and start their own businesses, right? Because I think many of us come to the realization that "If my brilliance is not gonna be respected here, why am I giving away my pearls for this? To this?" Right? "Why not cast my pearls in my own favor?" And so a lot of us are making that transition to entrepreneurship because we understand that the work that we do in the workplace often times is disrespected, is not--does not really lead to the same sort of outcomes that other people face, and so because of that we think about, well, we don't want to spend our lives in that situation. Why not see what we can do in terms of turning our intellectual capital into a good--not just for somebody else, but for ourselves.Zach: Amen, Dr. Avis. And look, those little Biblical references, you're not sleeping on me. I heard you. I got one for you too - 'cause sometimes you gotta just, you know, shake the dust from your feet, you know what I mean?Avis: Exactly. [laughs]Zach: So you just gotta make it happen, you know? But no, you're absolutely right, and I think there's also--so I'd love for you and I to talk about this in a separate conversation, but, you know, Living Corporate, what we're really trying to do right now is do some research to talk about and connect the reality of work trauma, work-related trauma, with--like, the mental health impacts of work-related trauma to black and brown folks at work, because there's something that I believe--and again, I don't have a Ph.D, okay? I'm not out here hanging out with Roland Martin like you, Dr. DeWeever, but I do believe--[both laugh]--I do believe that there's some mental--I do believe it impacts your mental health to be the person who's putting all the thought leadership in, but then someone comes in, quote unquote cleans it up, and then they get all of the credit for it, right? I think that that's--that does something to you over time.Avis: It can be traumatic, and dealing with a daily sort of barrage of microaggressions and macroaggressions and not seeing other people sort of stand up and acknowledge what it is and call a thing a thing is also traumatic. I just had a conversation with a client last night who is a tenured professor at a university, went to an event at her university where there was a guest speaker, and apparently the guest speaker--white--used the N-word, and--[record scratch sfx] And she was shocked. She was insulted. And just as much as she was shocked and insulted, she was also hurt that none of her white colleagues said anything. Zach: No, that's terrible. That's terrible.Avis: So in essence she felt betrayed, right? So, you know, it is traumatic. It can be traumatic to continue to suffer those indignities every day, which is basically a coded behavior in our society that says that--that tries to tell us the lie, basically, that we don't belong, that we are not important, that we're not valued, and I think a lot of the work that I do, whether it be through my writing, whether it be through my sort of coaching with women around these issues, is really about saving our souls from that daily assault that we face in the workplace and figuring out strategies to navigate it in a way that maintains our self-dignity and allows us to put ourselves in situations where we do garner respect, whether or not that means navigating those spaces within that environment in a way that changes that dynamic so that you are treated with the respect that you deserve, or in some situations it may mean finding a better environment that is healthier for you, because it does not do you any good to stay in a workplace that is constantly assaulting your dignity. It will impact your health. It will impact your peace of mind. And let me tell you, no check is worth that.Zach: Oh--listen, hold on. Hold on. [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Listen, 'cause--and this is the thing. I think we're in a really interesting intersection of increased awareness--if I'm gonna go by social media, and if I look at, like, the wellness trends today, especially within, like, the black and brown community, we're in an interesting intersection of millennials being more and more prominent in the workplace and mental health being, like, more and more openly discussed, and I think that, you know, we've seen trends now that people--like, my generation will leave. You know, they're talking about "This ain't working?" You know what I'm saying? They'll say, "Well, you know, if you're not gonna be able to work these crazy hours and be treated like this, you're gonna have to find a new job." We'll be like [Shannon Sharpe "that ain't no problem" sfx]--it's not a problem. Like, we will transition, you know? [both laugh]Avis: I would be like, "Deuces!"Zach: Deuces. Like, goodbye.Avis: But you know what? That in and of it self is a good strategy. You know, I think we need to acknowledge the wisdom of that in a couple of different ways. I mean, not only are you saving your soul from those stressors that, as I mentioned, impact your physical health and your mental health, quite frankly your strongest point of negotiation when it comes to salary is when you have a new job opportunity. So moving to that next opportunity and that next opportunity and that next opportunity in a relatively short period of time helps you to be able to exponentially grow your earning power a lot more than individuals often times who choose to spend long periods of time in one place and get stuck and have a hard time moving up that ladder. [cha-ching sfx] So I think often times people talk about millennials in very disparaging ways, and I think in many ways some of those folks need to sit back and watch y'all and learn from what you're doing, because that makes nothing but sense to me.Zach: Oh, listen. If you look at my little LinkedIn--and I'm not leaving a job every couple months, don't get me wrong, but I've zig-zagged. I've got a little positive zig-zag action going on, and you just gotta keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll show up to a whole new job talking about [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx] Like, I will leave. Like, I will--boy. Anyway, [both laugh] let's keep it going. You know what? And this is the thing, Dr. DeWeever. You're making me laugh more, so then I'm using more of these sound effects, but that's fine. I appreciate the encouragement. Let's talk about the role that intersectionality plays in the work that you do, right? And so Incite Unlimited, you know, you're a D&I expert--you're a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. What does it look like to discuss race and gender and engage white women, who may assume that your challenges and lived experiences are either if not the same highly similar?Avis: That's a problem. [both laugh, haha sfx] That's a huge problem. But in all seriousness, honestly, these days, I'm so frustrated with where we are in the D&I space period, DE&I space. I'm frustrated because many companies--and I talk about this a bit in my book--for years now, actually, have made the decision--they've made the calculated decision to preference gender diversity over racial diversity in their efforts and in their focus and programming as it relates to looking at DE&I and how it is lived out in their companies. And as I show in my book, what we've seen--and it's interesting, 'cause this dates back to 2008--we start to see a shift in who gets promoted to leadership positions in corporations, and it's interesting. It's as if there was this collective decision among corporations that "Okay, there's a black president, so black people have made it, so let's stop focusing on black folk." Right?Zach: Yes.Avis: And so what we see, if you look at the data about who actually gets promoted to management positions, is we see an exponential increase in the number of white women who get those positions, and at the same time we've seen a mirrored effect of a decrease in the number of people of color of both genders who get those positions. So now, even though we're in a time right now where corporations are, you know, every time, you know, you see them, any time you hear anything around corporations around this issue of diversity, a lot of them have a good, you know, shtick to sell. All of them know what to say. They always talk about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but when you actually look at the numbers, you actually have corporations that are getting whiter and whiter, even though they tend to tout the language of diversity, but they're just checking that box with white women instead of with people of color. So in many organizations you end up having what I call an organizational apartheid, where the leadership structures now are increasingly white, even though now you have more of those leaders wearing skirts than you did in years past. But you have even more whiteness at the top now than you did, say, 10 years ago.Zach: Listen, I had a--I was on the job, and I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about diverse the group was. And I was like, "The group is all white women." What do you mean "diverse?" Like, diverse in what way? Diverse in, like, that they're all not blonde? Or--like, what is this? And you're 100% right, and I--so look, this is the thing, right? So I am in--I'm actively in corporate America, right? Like, I'm in this space. I work for a large consulting firm. And it's increasingly frustrating, because you're absolutely--I 100% agree with you. I'm looking at the content and I'm looking at the way that things are framed, and they are often framed in very binary terms, right? They're framed in very, like, "men versus women," and it's like, "You're really going--" Like, it's insulting. Like, it's not only just ahistorical, right? It's an intellectually dishonest discussion. Avis: Absolutely.Zach: Right? It's intellectually dishonest, because in 1865, in 1845, all men were not doing the same things, okay?Avis: Absolutely not.Zach: Right? And all women were not doing the same things. And so it's like, "Okay, what does it look like to have an honest conversation about this?" You know, we actually had Lionel Lee, who--he's an inclusion lead for the Zillow Group, and I asked him, I said--like, we're just now getting to talking about black women from time to time, and we've yet to--I haven't really been a part of a lot of programs that explicitly talk about black male experiences, right? And I'm like--and look, I don't even do it and D&I is a large part of my job. I don't even do it because I recognize that I need to use my platform and my privilege to help my sisters, and--not but--and at the same time I'm like, "Dang, why don't we ever talk about the reality and nuanced experience of black men?" Like, yes, we benefit from patriarchy, and yes, we have--we have privileges that black women do not have. We're also seen as a threat at work. We're also often times patronized in a way, and it's a unique--but we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And you're right--Avis: You're exactly right, and I would say you also suffer wage gaps. Zach: Right.Avis: People talk about wage gaps as if it's just a gender thing. It's not. It's a race and a gender thing. So just as, you know, black women, for example, suffer a double wage gap as compared to white men--which, as you mentioned, we're recording this on Black Women's Equal Pay Day. You know, black men have a pay gap with white men of similar educational backgrounds, and so black men aren't paid fairly either. And then if you look within the women's population, black women suffer a wage gap as compared to white women. Right? So no one really talks about these realities. It's not as simple as just a gender dynamic. You're exactly right. In this nation, race, color, is--no pun intended--everything. Everything. Yet, you know, there is only a sense of urgency around talking about this issue of gender at work and addressing those issues. And, you know, my theory behind that is, you know, it--let's just be real. I mean, this white men who stand at the top of the hierarchy in these spaces have white mothers. They have white wives. They have white daughters. So there is a natural alliance there that they tend to be more sensitive to than they are to black male issues, black female issues, or issues of any people of color. And so, you know, I think it's important that we acknowledge that reality, and until DE&I becomes serious about taking off the blinders and having an honest conversation around--and not just conversation, honest actions around really creating equity at work through both a race and gender lens, it will really be nothing in many ways but a farce in many organizations, where they can do a little something, have a few programs on a few special days, but when it comes to really making [?] change they cower, much like the rest of this culture. It's very hard--I wouldn't say it's hard. The normalcy of white privilege in our society creates a situation where whiteness does not want to take responsibility for its actions. As we're recording this, not only is it Black Women's Equal Pay Day, I'm actually in Hampton right now about to attend [?] activities around the 400th anniversary of the first Africans who came to America. In slave ships. I'll put it like that. And we still--you see what happened when the New York Times published the 1619 piece, where you have all of these supposedly legitimate, quote unquote, voices on the right come out, and they simply deny the reality of the history of this nation. Yeah, so we have a relatively easy time in America at least acknowledging issues of sexism. Like, we don't deny facts when it comes to, like, you know, the history of sexism, right? But to have people act like the reality and the brutality of what slavery was, to call that propaganda, to me, serves as a great example of the level of dysfunction that we are in this nation when it comes to really being honest around the oppressive nature of racism, not just in the past. We can't even cop up to what happened 400 years ago. That really puts a spotlight on why it's so important and why it's so hard for people to cop up to what's happening right here in the here and now.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Had to give you a Flex bomb. You're absolutely right. You're dropping straight facts. Now, look, I want to respect your time, so let's keep going. One topic that Living Corporate has discussed in the past has been respectability politics. Now, I'm a firm believer that respectability still shapes a large amount of the ways that we, as black and brown folks, show up in any space. What has been your experience with respectability politics in the realms that you engage?Avis: Yeah. I mean, that is--it's a big thing. It's a big thing, where people have to make the choice, in many ways, like, how do you navigate situations at work where there are sensitivities around institutionalized racism. Do you sort of call it out at the moment, or do you try to play the game and hope that it will make--you know, things will improve over time? I really think--I personally have a problem with respectability politics, and it may just be that I'm a rebel--[both laugh]--but really, logically I'm thinking, "What are you really gaining when you're sacrificing your soul?" Really, what are you gaining? And then what are you changing, right? What you're doing is you're legitimizing the unfair behavior when you contort yourself in a way in which you have to minimize who you are in order to be accepted. I'll give you a brief example. When I--you know, I've had my locks. I have locks, and I've padlocked my locks now for well over 20 years. I started them when I was in graduate school, well before it became cool, okay? [Cardi B "ow" sfx, both laugh] And so when I started my locks, I remember my mom told me at the time, "Oh, my God. You'll never get a job," you know? But at the time I told her, and it has borne out to be true, that, you know, if someone does not want to hire me because of what's on my head versus what's in my head, then that's some place I don't want to work, right? Because that tells you something about that environment, right? And so to me that's just an example of respectability politics. If I have to change who I am to fit in with you, then I don't need you, boo-boo. I don't need that. You're not the only place on earth. Really.Zach: Absolutely not. [laughs]Avis: And that goes for relationships too, but that's a whole 'nother story.Zach: Oh, my goodness. You're gonna have to come back for that one. You're 100% right though. Okay, so now--[both laugh]--do you believe that respectability has increased or decreased in this era of Trump? And I'm gonna say era of Trump because come on, now. First of all, this is my podcast. I'll say what I want to say. But two, it's the reality of, like, the fact that we live in an era that is, in certain ways--so I'm not one of the people that thinks like, "Oh, it's so much more racist now." America has been racist since its inception. However, or with that being said, there is a certain level or spirit of boldness that is in the atmosphere that is, I would say, unique to this time, but not exclusive to this time. With all of those different exceptions we said at the top, do you believe respectability has increased or decreased in the era of Trump, and what role do you predict it playing for the next generation of black and brown folks at work?Avis: Mm-hmm. I think respectability has decreased in the era of Trump, precisely because of what you previously mentioned. I mean, in this time we are seeing a space where, even though racism has always been around, it's not been new to America, it's been here from the very beginning, we are experiencing a moment where there is greater social acceptability, or at least perceived social acceptability, for overt racist acts, right? And so because of that, people are engaging in more racist actions in broader society, which includes in the workplace, okay? And I think that it's also created sort of a counter-reaction, where people are also becoming more activists in terms of resisting those behaviors. Now, people find different ways to fight back, but I do think that where there is an action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and in this moment, while we're seeing a rise in hate crimes, a rise in hate groups all across the nation, we're also seeing [?] and activism to fight against it. And so if there is, hopefully, a silver lining that we might find behind this moment, it is my hope that what it has done is it has awakened people who maybe had been lulled into a sense of false security under the Obama administration to say, "You know what? We haven't gotten as far as I thought we've gotten. In fact, we're starting to move backwards." And I just can't go along to get along anymore. The time has now come to fight back, and I'm hoping that's what more and more people are doing, and from what I see that seems to be the case.Zach: I 100% agree with you. 'Cause, you know, as an example, Dr. Jones-DeWeever--so I used to kind of, like, take a break--you know, like, let's say, like, in Obama's time, you know, I would walk outside, just take a nice little stroll, but see, now, in the era of Trump, I feel extra black. So I take--I got my menthols, and I just smoke right outside. Maybe I take some Black and Milds. You know, it's nothing, right? I might even put on a durag, because I'm like, you know? You ain't about to stop me.Avis: Put on one black glove.Zach: I put on one black glove as I roll a Newport, okay? [both laugh]Avis: Boy. Man, you'll be scaring folks.Zach: At my desk. While listening to "Strange Fruit" in the background. Listen--[both laugh] I'ma let you go. We're almost done, I promise. Here we go. Your voice is a critical part of everything you do, right? So you're a writer. You're an advocate. You're an activist. You're an educator. You're also a speaker, and you're a political commentator in major mainstream media and independent media. What advice would you give to black and brown women who still struggle to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work?Avis: That is such an excellent question and such an important question, and I think it's first critical--it's interesting. I had a conversation with a client about this today. First of all, you have to realize that you do have a voice. It's there. No one has the right or the ability to take away you, what's inside of you and what's for you, right? And so I think just acknowledging that your voice is there and that your voice has value is the first critical step that every black woman has to take. And then you have to say, "How can I best use this to create better outcomes for me?" Right? It's about speaking up when someone takes your idea and tries to pass it off as their own. It's about making sure that you negotiate when that offer is made to you and you don't just take the first number that's thrown your way, you know? It's about speaking up in that meeting and making sure that your perspective is heard. So it's about not shrinking in those moments, and it's then remembering the powerful being that you are and that you deserve to be there and that, 9 times out of 10, you're probably more qualified than everybody else in that room, so lean into that. And that's the only situation where I would ever use the term "lean in," because I will say that, generally speaking, we all know that black women have been leaning in forever, right? But what I really want us to do is understand our power and to vocalize that power and to not feel ashamed about vocalizing it. And if you do get to a situation where you feel that the environment that you're in does not respect you, does not want your contribution, tries to minimize you or silence you, then I think you should definitely look at other opportunities, because this world is replete with opportunities, other job opportunities and opportunities that you can create independently for yourself. And so lean into the beauty of the brilliance within you, and don't let anyone else convince you that it's not there.Zach: Y'all, let me just go ahead and give some air horns for that real fast. [air horns sfx] 'Cause those were all big facts. My goodness gracious. Okay, look, this has been a great conversation. I've had a wonderful time. I also believe--I'm not trying to impose--I believe you've also had a wonderful time, and--Avis: I have! This has been great. Thank you.Zach: Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Avis: I just want some more sound effects, that's all. I'm just, like, really all about the sound effects.Zach: We're right here. Listen, I got 'em all. Look, me and Aaron--I'll listen to something on YouTube and I'll be like, "Aaron, go ahead and take that and drop it in the Dropbox." He's over here--he'll take them little downloads and put 'em in our little folder like [Cardi B "bratbratbrat" sfx] You know, we got all kinds of content, okay? So we're ready. [both laugh, Cardi B "hehe" sfx]Avis: I love it. [laughs]Zach: All right. Okay, listen, y'all. Thank you so much for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, we're everywhere. I used to say all of the little places that we're at, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, but I don't do that anymore. I just say "Google us" at this point, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause God has enlarged our territory, okay? We are continuing to expand and grow, okay? And so if you just Google "Living Corporate," you will find us, okay? We're on every streaming platform. You can check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate and look for us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, okay? We're out here. If you want to listen and make sure that you actually can check out all of Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever's books and speaking engagements and where you can contact her more, check out the show notes. We got 'em all right there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You have been listening to Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, speaker, educator, activist, mother of two, and all-around dope person. Catch y'all later. Peace.

On the sixth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, shares five signs that tell us it's time to leave our job, and she lets us know that the right opportunity is out there for us - we just cannot settle.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. So if you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you're in the right place. I am here with Living Corporate, and today we are talking about "Make a Move: 5 Signs That It's Time to Leave Your Job." This is an extremely important topic, because as a career coach, I talk to people every single day that are extremely unhappy with their jobs. Either they're not passionate about the work that they're doing, they feel that they are not in the best environment that suits, you know, their own professional needs, maybe they don't like their boss. It really just comes down to they don't like the work. They don't like the work they're doing. They don't like the company they work for. And that can present a lot of challenges, not just in the professional life, but also in the personal, especially for those that are working in fields where they feel like their life is just passing them by and they're just going with the day-to-day. That's not healthy, you know? That's not okay, and I want you all to know that the right opportunity is out there for you. You just cannot settle. We spend, on average, over 90,000 hours at work. That is a long time. I mean, that's a lot of hours, and we spend a third of our lives at work, right? There's 24 hours in a day. If we're working 8 hours a day, okay, that's one-third. A lot of us don't even work just 8 hours a day. So essentially you probably are spending more time at work than you are with friends, than you are with spouses, with your children. And if you're unhappy with your career and the way that it's going, that's going to spill over into your personal life, into your relationships with your spouse, with your children, with your friends. I see it every day. I have a lot of folks that I have spoken with where their unhappiness at work has led to anxiety, it's led to depression. Again, you're never stuck, all right? So if you have been on the fence about looking for a job, if you're not sure if you're doing what you are destined to do, I'm gonna give you some things to think about today so you can actually go out and realize that "You know what? Maybe it's time for me to make a move." I've been there. If you have followed my story or if you've heard anything about my past, I did not just jump into entrepreneurship. I did not just become a career coach and have been doing that forever. In my former life, I was in accounting. I worked in auditing for a public accounting firm, a Big Four public accounting firm. No shade to anyone that is in public accounting or working with the Big Four. It really is a wonderful, wonderful industry to be in with a lot of opportunity. It just wasn't for me. As an auditor, you know, I kind of felt like the IRS, you know? My clients didn't love seeing me. Whenever I asked them for some type of documentation, they were like, "What do you need this for? Why do you need it?" You know? [laughs] So it was not just that. It was just a challenge for me, because I am a people person. I love helping people, and I felt that every time I talked to my clients I felt like I was just bothering them, you know? And then on top of that, you know, looking on my computer, looking at numbers all day, like, my brain would literally be fried. Now, I'm so thankful for that experience, because, you know, I do believe that accounting is the language of business, so it has allowed me to be very numbers, metrics-focused. That just has helped me so much in my career, even in working through helping my clients think about tangible results and many, many, many other things. So again, just know that everything that you've done up to this point in your career, I'm sure that it has a purpose and a meaning and it's going to be a part of your story and your testimony one day, but you are not stuck. You are never stuck, and it really saddens me that I see so many talented individuals that, you know, are unhappy. You have so much potential. You have so much life. You have so much purpose within you that not only are you setting yourself back by saying or feeling stuck, but think about the many lives that you could impact and that you could change if you were to step out on faith, all right, and really offer those contributions to the world that you're meant to based on your passion, your skills, the things that you care about, the things that you love. So let's go ahead and get into some of the things to think about when it is time to make a move. #1 - you aren't feeling challenged by the work at your job. You aren't feeling challenged by the work at your job. Simply put, you're bored. [laughs] You're bored. Maybe the work is too easy. Again, you want to make sure that you are in a position where you're able to do your job well, but not to the point where you are just kind of twiddling your thumbs and you're uninterested in the work. Being challenged at work is healthy, just from a mental perspective. Now, when I say challenged, I mean challenged to the point where, you know, you are excited to learn something new. You're excited to develop a particular skill set or to learn more about a particular topic - with the adequate training though. I don't mean challenge meaning that you are set to do something that is literally impossible, but having a good balance or a healthy level of challenge is definitely going to just allow you to grow professionally. #2 - if you are unsatisfied with your company's work environment, it's time to make a move. If you are in a toxic environment, meaning that, you know, people are yelling at each other, you have been yelled at at work, you've been called names. There's a lot of gossip going around. People don't respect you. They don't respect each other. The other thing you want to think about too is all right, maybe no one is saying anything to your face, but if you are around a bunch of other coworkers that are talking about each other to you, I promise you they're probably talking about you, just not to your face. So I could go on and on and on about this, because I know we have all dealt with some type of toxic work environment. I just want you to know that that's not normal, that that's not healthy, and that's not safe. When you are in a toxic work environment, that can lead to anxiety. That can lead to depression. That can feel like you aren't good enough, when it's really not you, it's them making you feel that way, and if you stay in that type of environment for long enough you may start to internalize some of the messaging that you are receiving. If you're getting blamed for things that you have no control over, that you are not a part of, again, that is a toxic work environment. #3 - if you aren't satisfied with your salary or your pay, it's time to make a move. We don't have time to, you know, just sit around, hoping that more money's gonna fall out of the sky. Now, let's say that you have had conversations with your manager, right? And that's what I recommend. Let's say you're not satisfied, okay? So you talk to management and you say, "Hey, look, I have been working my ass off here." You know, you go run them through your brag sheet. You tell them how you've been able to add value and that you're looking for--you'd like to discuss the opportunity for a raise or a promotion, and that conversation was a year ago or two years ago and you haven't heard anything, and whenever you do bring it up again they kind of brush it off like, "Okay, let's talk in the next six months." "Oh, well, we have a lot of things going on here internally at the company, so let's hold that thought." Again, listen, that money is not going to fall out of the sky, so you may want to look for a job that's actually going to pay you what you deserve. The cost of living is not going down, right? But your skills, your experience, your expertise, that value is going to continue to go up as you continue to work and lead new projects and work with new initiatives and new clients. So you need to make sure that you are being compensated fairly and adequately for what you are offering back to them. This kind of goes along--#4 kind of goes along with #3. If there are no opportunities to move up in your company, it may be time to make a move. Now, again, let's say that you've had these conversations with your manager about wanting to move up, and they brush you off, right? Or let's say you don't even have a level or a position at your current company that you aspire to. Maybe you do see some folks that are in a management role, but you don't want that. You don't want that type of management role. It's going to take you realizing that, "Okay, I don't want to move up here," but you want to continue to move up in your field. You've got to get out. Try another company, all right? #5 - oh, and the other thing I want to say about #4, [laughs]--I had a friend I had reach out to me about this, but she had a conversation with her manager, and her manager--well, she told the manager, like, "Hey, what does my future look like here at this company?" And the manager said, "Oh, just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, just keep right on. Keep doing that thing." That is a sign that you need to make a move, because if your company is not invested in your growth or not invested with your future moving up in that company, then you gotta go, you know? And the other thing that I would say too--'cause I have some clients that are going through this right now--maybe there's not an opportunity for you to move up at the company, but you still want to just kind of diversity your skill set a little bit as you continue to look for opportunities. Maybe try a lateral move. Maybe try a transition into a new group, a new department, something new, just to, again, make sure you are being challenged, stimulated professionally from a mental perspective as you continue to look for opportunities. #5 - let's say the company's values are unaligned with your own. It is time to make a move. If your company is doing some type of unethical practices--maybe they're treating consumers, clients, even employees ways that you think are a little bit unfair and you have this uneasy feeling about it. You may want to think about making a move. I just did a presentation on working with millennials in Generation Z in the workplace, and through my research I've found that that is something that millennials and Gen Z really look for, is finding a company that has strong ethical practices and that they have values that are aligned with their own. Think about that. Think about that, because the company that you work for, that is most definitely a part of your brand, and if you don't feel comfortable, you know, really repping for your company, that just is definitely something to think about. Why would you want to continue to stay there to help that company grow when you aren't sure that they are, you know, doing work in an ethical fashion? So those are my five things. I could go on and on and on about this, but the other thing I wanted to say here is just trust your gut. Trust your gut. You are not stuck. Don't play it safe. That is self-defeat. There are a lot of other companies that would be more than happy to hire you. Again, you are skilled, you are qualified, and the other thing is that it doesn't hurt. Like, it really doesn't hurt to just look and see what's out there, you know? It doesn't hurt to apply and interview every six months just to kind of see "Do I still got it?" You know, just to kind of see what these other companies have to offer you. The grass may not always be greener on the other side, but you won't know unless you jump the fence or unless you peek through the gate, right? And I kind of see staying in a not-so-great work environment the same way that we talk about staying in a relationship. It can be emotionally, even physically, abusive, right? You might be losing sleep over not loving your job. Sometimes, you know, in those relationships, your partner may have you thinking, "You're not gonna find anything better than me. You're gonna be single forever," right? I'm not saying that companies are saying that, but I'm sure you all can relate to hearing something or thinking something very similar or even witnessing that. So again, don't let that self-defeat take over. Just see what's out there. Just because you're looking at jobs, just because you're applying, doesn't mean that the company's gonna call you tomorrow and say, "Hey, we got this offer for you, and we're ready for you to start. Can you start right now?" That's not how it works. It definitely takes time, but you're gonna have to push yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone to get there. So I hope that these tips are helpful. I want you all to be happy and passionate and just love the work that you do every day. I know I do, and I wish everyone in the world could feel that feeling that I feel. So if you have any other questions for me, feel free to reach out to me. I am on Instagram and Twitter @Latesha_Byrd - L-A-T-E-S-H-A underscore Byrd, B-Y-R-D. So hit me up. I hope these tips were helpful, and I want you all to just have a great day. Thanks.

In this special episode, Liz Sweigart sits down with Noah, a Latinx trans man, who brings us an incredible story of survivorship. He graciously shares the variety of experiences he's had over time and talks about how his identity over the years has impacted and influenced his family.TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, y'all? Welcome back to Living Corporate. My name is Ade. So today, this conversation is going to be between Liz and Noah. We beg your patience - the audio quality is not the greatest, but it is an incredibly important conversation, and we hope you give it a listen. The conversation today is between Liz, who many of you are familiar with, and Noah, who is a Latinx trans man, and Noah spends some time exploring his different experiences over time, and Liz has a great conversation with Noah about what it means to be a first-gen trans man as, you know, he did not originally begin his interactions in corporate spaces as simply a queer person. His transition followed the course of his career. His transition happened concurrently with his career. It's an important conversation. I think it's an interesting one to listen in on, and I think it's also important for anyone who identifies as an ally to understand what life is like and what it means to exist at all of these different intersectionalities or all of these different intersections of identity and how that might affect your work experience. In particular, Noah illustrates his point with several anecdotes about his experience in the workplace and juxtaposes his experience with, you know, what others might have experienced or what they did experience in comparison to what the reaction was to his behavior in the workplace. And I think it's so important that as we--particularly for folks who manage others--that as we function within corporate spaces that we understand what it means to hold space for others, what it means to be allies, what it means to manage others responsibly. And with that, I'm gonna let Liz and Noah take it away. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Please send any questions or comments our way. We would love to hear from you. Thank you for listening. This is Living Corporate.Liz: Thanks for joining the podcast. I'm here today with Noah. Noah brings us an incredible story of survivorship. We've talked about how being labeled, being boxed in, and finding your place on the spectrum [?]--his story is so rich in terms of [it crosses?] race and gender and ethnicity that come together and create [an environment?] that is particularly challenging to navigate, and so I'm really happy for you to introduce yourself, please, to the group.Noah: Awesome. Well, first of all it's an honor. Yeah, I'm excited to [?]--you know, I always forget that [?] others' experiences, because it's inevitably [?] every person out there. So yeah, thanks again for having me. My name is Noah. Full disclaimer: Liz and I met in [college.] We did go to Rice University together way back in the day, right? [both laugh] So I'm originally from--I was born to Mexican immigrants, born and raised in Houston. Obviously did university there at Rice, and yeah, I feel like I've lived three lifetimes [in the time that I've] been on this earth. Went from, you know, coming out as queer in college to eventually moving across the country. I'm now in [?], and I am in my late thirties. I started my medical transition just a few years ago. I consider myself a female-to-male transgender man, and yeah, I moved up [?] for graduate school, and yeah, I've had a whirlwind of an experience the last few years.Liz: Yeah, "whirlwind" is probably the right [term]. [Over] your life you've had a diversity of career experiences. I mean, you're an educator as well as a scholar. You have--you know, you've done so many different things over the course of your career. How have you found that your expression of self has changed in terms of presentation across those different environments?Noah: It really, really has changed over the years. Yeah, I began my professional life--during college, after, we're talking the mid-2000s, and I was at the time out as a lesbian, and when I was working in a certain job--I actually started my career in the corporate world, before I became an educator, and, you know, I was seen as a quote-unquote "butch lesbian." I [tend to] dress in more masculine clothing. That's how I've always felt comfortable. But also because of the way that I would be looked at by bosses and supervisors, you know? I felt very uncomfortable even just trying to dress and present as myself. When I began teaching middle school and high school, my presentation didn't change. I was also out at that time as genderqueer. I was very afraid of students and their parents Googling me and, you know, finding articles about my gender identity, gender queerness, and how that would impact me at work. I, you know, obviously wasn't at the point of, you know, wearing ties to my job, but, you know, [?] or khakis and a dress shirt--when a feminine person wears them versus when a person who isn't feminine wears them, you know, it really does change, you know, the way you carry yourself if you're looked at as the capital O "other." But I have medically transitioned. I'm pretty much cisgender-passing, and I'm currently looking for work--I feel like the way that I dress professionally, you wouldn't blink an eye at me, where it used to be this just huge, huge deal. And I have a really funny story about a temporary job I had right out of college. I was working for a software company, and--I was doing data entry and data analysis for the sales department, and I was pulled, you know, from my little cubicle and asked to speak to the manager for a moment, and he went into this really long spiel about my presentation, about dress code, and--he [used?] the feminine words. He was like, you know, "You're a very colorful person. You are very visible." I mean, these are quotes I will never forget, and then finally, at the end of that conversation, I said, "Well, sir, what would you like me to do?" And I was thinking to myself [?]. And he said, "Well, could you take that extra earring out?" I asked him, "What exactly do you want out of this?" You know, I had an extra earring back in my, you know, cartilage [?] part of the ear. So I took that out and said, "Okay, are we done here? Can I go back to work?" And he said okay. I think I just made him nervous about what it was really about, you know? So yeah, that's a very interesting question, because obviously I've been through this really [straining?] gamut of experiences just for wearing collared shirts and slacks to work.Liz: And, you know, it seems like the most mundane thing, right? Putting on pants and a shirt to go to the office. Noah: Literally putting [?], yeah.Liz: And it's so fraught for people in our community, and it's something I think about as well in terms of "How do I express my own identity?" I've always--you know, I've always identified as a woman. I've always identified femme [at center?], but certainly an aspect of my identity has been that I'm not high-femme. And it's so interesting to see how we navigate this impression management [?] and, in some senses, for ourselves. There was a period of time certainly, [?] in my early 20s, where I know that I was dressing for me because I was trying to--I was trying to do something to feel like I belonged, because instead I was spending a lot of energy fitting in, and it was not working for me.Noah: Understandably, yeah.Liz: So, you know, I find it really interesting that you now, as you say, you really pass a cisgender male, and if anyone were to pass you on the street they wouldn't give you the second glance. Because you do present certainly masculine [at center?] I'm curious, you know, as somebody who was--you know, had a genderqueer identity, somebody who has always had the ability to appreciate and revere the benefits of the feminine--not necessarily identify with the feminine, but certainly to embrace the feminine. Do you feel that you're in any way now boxed in by the way in which you're read, or have you achieved--Noah: Interesting question. Yes, [?]--when I come out to people, you know, [?] the non-binary--I don't want to say the center, because that's--you know, outside the realm of, you know, the binary ones and zeroes. I do feel sometimes pigeon-holed as to, you know, what people expect of me. Do I [?], even in professional settings, to wear your typical masculine clothing? Of course, you know, but in my day-to-day life, you know, to be super restricted--not that I certainly want to wear, you know, hyper-feminine clothing earlier, but restricted as to what is masculine, what is feminine, you know, it brings to mind a lot of, you know, past experiences on what is acceptable of the feminine person to wear versus the masculine when you look at the same articles of clothing. And it's interesting that our conversation has already kind of developed over to just clothing, but, I mean, it's a very visible part of our community, and so it's a huge part of our expression. I'll give you another great firsthand example. When I was an educator, I one day went into the teacher's lounge to make some copies as, you know, we were often doing, and I was teaching summer school, and I was wearing, you know, simple khakis, collared shirt, and a pair of, you know, Converse sneakers. It was summertime and, you know, we weren't dressed as hyper-professionally as usually. I had noticed during the week that one of the female-identifying teachers was wearing a nice skirt and blouse with some matching Converse, which I thought was an adorable look, and that was no big deal. I wear, you know, a very similar outfit on the masculine end of the spectrum, and as I am making copies this day, the school director walks in, stands next to me, puts his hands in his pockets, looks down at my feet, and just stands there until I noticed him - which is a very typical managerial tactic in corporate or in any organization to let the employee know what you think without saying anything, which I've always found very strange. You know, he just stared at my shoes until I looked at them and looked at him, and he noticed I acknowledged what he was looking at and walked away. And I thought, "Well, this is so strange." The same simple article of clothing is okay for a woman to wear at work, but because at the time, you know, I was presenting as a masculine woman, there was a different reaction. And to this day I just find that so very strange and wonder, you know, now that we've progressed a little bit as a society, would that still have been a big deal today, you know? So again, that's just, you know, one [?] example, but should I today--let's say I, you know, end up teaching high school again for example. If I were to walk in, now that I'm cis-passing, with the standard male--you know, masculine professional outfit, if I wore [?] mascara and eyeliner, for example, because I felt comfortable doing that that day, would that be acceptable, or would that also cause, you know, [?]? I don't know.Liz: I think that's such a fair question, and I think it's one that many people are grappling with as they come to identify and find their gender expression as not fitting one of society's particularly rigid rules. Noah: Right. And again, we're just talking clothing so far. You know, we haven't even gotten into what it would be like to change your hair style or, you know, to do the makeup thing, whether you are a male-identified person or--you know, there's so many different factors at play when it comes to gender presentation, and that's just, again, gender presentation. We haven't even gotten into queer identity. There's so many factors at play that we could go into, so I'll let you guide the conversation. [laughs]Liz: Well, I so appreciate you bringing that up though, 'cause that's--that really to me is at the heart of our conversation, the incredible richness of the experience, but also all of the nuance and all of the texture. And the [?] of it--I mean, again, I'm gonna go back to the clothing, because I think one of the areas that I know I have seen--frankly I've seen bias is around clothing, and clothing that [?] to be worn by, you know, [?], right? Like, I've seen--I've certainly seen stereotypes played out, and it is a form--[?] What I'm interested in is your perspective on, you know, [a] son of immigrants, having a very strong Latinx identity yourself, one that I know you're very proud of for good reason, and wanting to express yourself, not just in terms of your gender identity but also in terms of your cultural identity. How do you see the interplay of those two things? Because for me it seems like an incredible challenge, particularly in communities of black and brown folk who are battling, you know, multiple biases and stereotypes around presentation of their queerness. And so I'm curious what you think and feel about that.Noah: Right. [?] A specific example of that intersectionality would be our hair, you know? Which has become a hot-button issue, even in the news recently, you know? You've got, you know, black folks who have dreads, and in certain companies or school districts or businesses [they're] told that they have to cut off their hair, which is a clearly, clearly racist request of them, you know? And so the intersectionality of being a black and brown person and, you know, presenting in a way in which, you know, you're proud of your own race and who you are on top of being queer just makes things, you know, 1,000 times more difficult. You know, when--for example, if a masculine lesbian was to, you know, have longer hair and then cut it after, you know, having been employed for a while by the organization, you know, that's something that I feel is still an issue depending on the part of the country that you're in. You know, to be a woman [that?] can take on a masculine hairstyle and to be a woman of color definitely affects the way that that person is gonna be perceived at work, as well as--you know, again, because I had the previous identity of a quote-unquote "lesbian" who had short hair, depending on how my hair was done, I would get different reactions from my bosses, whether it was in corporate America or in education, you know? If my hair reflected my black and brown culture--[I love to go to?] a barbershop, get my edges done, you know? These are things that people of color, you know, love to do, when we have short hair and we're, you know, masculine at center. Those kinds of hairstyles would, you know, make a manager or boss's eyebrow pop up, and I feel that those are those subconscious racial biases that a lot of folks don't realize that they have, you know? And like I said, you have that happening, plus it's a person of queer identity. You know, at that point--again, depending on [where?] you are, it [?] a can of worms with a lot of people's unconscious biases.Liz: I'm totally with you on unconscious bias around hair, and you talked about makeup and clothing, presentation, especially, as you said, as it pertains to those in the communities of color, because, again, you're in a heavily--typically a heavily white-dominated environment, and there is not necessarily a whole lot of tolerance for the other, and that is something where I think it's particularly striking to me when, you know, you Google, you know, "unprofessional hair," and you see pictures pop up, again, of dreads and braids, and--some of the most beautiful people I've ever seen, and yet the comfort of the majority requires the silence and suppression of the minority.Noah: Absolutely.Liz: So one of the things that you've never been shy about is your activism. [both laugh] And it's one of the things that I've always admired most about you, and, you know, I think [?] you've always looked for ways to really bring your story out and to make things very personal, and it goes back, I think, to something that--I think it was a joint class we might have been in together, and one of the underlying themes was that when you're trying to convince people of something, right, when you're trying to change behavior, the way to do it is to get people to believe in stories and to get them connect with people, to get them to connect with facts. And so, you know, when I think of your personal story and how much of your story you've put out there, I'm curious, you know, as the son of--as the son of immigrants, as a first-generation American, how comfortable has your family become with, you know, the part, in a sense, that they play in your activism? They may not--you know, it's not necessarily active with signs in the street, but they certainly are a huge part of your life and a huge part of who you are and how you express who you are. So can you talk a little bit about how your identity over the years has impacted and influenced your family?Noah: Absolutely. My folks are really, really amazing people. Shout-out to Mom and Dad. My mom especially has been my biggest supporter. Everything that I've done, you know, both professionally and socially, I--you know, I feel like a part of my activism, besides literally going into the streets and holding up signs at certain protests, has always been just to educate. I'm one of those people that strongly believes educating the masses has got to be the foundation of any activism. We're not gonna get anywhere without teaching people about who we are. I hate to use this word, but sadly personal connection trumps facts sometimes. If you know a queer person, if you know a trans person of color, if you know lesbians next door, all of a sudden, you know, you see a lot of cishet people realize that these issues are important because they affect real, real people. But yeah, when I came out to my parents--obviously I came out a couple of times, initially as queer at 19 in college, and, you know, my dad's initial reaction, verbatim, was "Whatever you do, don't let this ruin your life," and I thought that was a very strange phrase for him to use. And, you know, I talked to my mom about it later, and I realized what he meant by it was to not allow my identity be something that affects me at work or be something that, you know, causes me to be hurt by someone or to become depressed. Unfortunately, while that was a very well-meaning thing to say, it did impact me in all of those ways, you know? My father's brother, my uncle Ezekiel, was gay himself in a very small town in Mexico. He died just a few years ago, about seven years ago, of alcohol-related illnesses, which I believe was partially because of him being queer in a very, very small town in rural Mexico, you know? So my father was very aware of the impact socially that being queer could have on someone, you know? So he's been a big part in just kind of being protective. He's fully accepting of my identity, but again, he's a very practical man and has always been concerned about how my identity will impact me scholastically, at work, in just general society. My mom, on the other hand, has always had more of a--not necessarily a hands-on approach to supporting the activist part in me, but I'll give you a great example. I was interviewed about my genderqueer identity back in maybe 2006, 2007, and this was in one of the local papers. And she went to the grocery store to pick up a couple of them, and, you know, one of my friends was on the cover of this magazine--this newspaper was just, you know, walking out of Kroger, picking up these newspapers, and she said someone looked at her really funny, because the title, you know, was very obviously a queer article. And she [?] this person, and she said that--she said, "Well, my child is in this magazine," and just, you know, picked up a bunch more and walked away. Little things like that that show support, you know, socially, which I think--you know, little things like that make a huge impact, you know? Whoever was looking at her, [?] at her or picking up this particular magazine, probably changed their mind a little bit. You know, like, "Oh, gosh, I didn't realize." Like, "That's the reason why this woman was picking up a bunch of these newspapers." [?] in this article. That's a big thing, you know? And to this day, you know, whatever I'm doing regarding, you know, school stuff, [inaudible] graduation, getting back into the workforce. You know, my mom has been very scared for me as well as very proud. You know, as you know, I recently, you know, survived a traumatic brain injury, and speaking to my mom about that in person, you know, she was really very scared, you know? Her family was very impacted by that. To this day we don't know if it was a hate crime or not. You know, there was no video evidence. All of this was investigated by local police to narrow down any suspects and arrest anyone. So, you know, this assault is just gonna be part of my history that is--you know, it's gonna be this horrible mystery of "Who may have done this?" But on the other hand, you know, I'm so grateful to be here, to, you know, tell that story, to be able to, you know, teach my parents what it's like to be a queer person in a [?] world and to see them grow and change, [to?] grow and be [?] accepting and be, you know, just the model of [trans?] parents. I think it's what keeps me optimistic. At the end of the day, [?]--today for example. I'm, you know, never again gonna be in the closet. I'm never again want to work for an organization [that doesn't?], you know, go out of the way to make sure, you know, queer folks at this organization or place of employment feel safe, feel just as valued and a part of the team. You know, I don't see myself doing anything different. I can't even imagine, you know, being employed again at any place where I'd have to be in the closet or hide who I am, 'cause all that does is, you know, hurt not only myself, but it hurts the rest of the community, you know? Anyone in our community not able to be visible, you know, that reverberates out into the rest of the community. We feel that.Liz: Absolutely. And again, you know, I'm always struck by the passion with which you speak, because I know that 1. it just comes from so deep within you, but also I know how much you have loved other people who have had similar--you know, similar challenges. Maybe they did not necessarily have supportive families the way that you did and they struggled with, you know, academics, they struggled to find employment. And again, I'm grateful and appreciative to you for bringing up your [?], and I'm so sorry that you had to go through that experience. I am curious, having had that experience and knowing what the statistics are like for--[?] frankly around the world for violence against trans persons, [?] particular trans people of color--what do you think needs to happen from a societal mindset shift and change? What is the--what is going to be the tipping point when you think this will really be [battled?] in society?Noah: I think it's--the solution has--[because?] people of color in general, you know, sadly [?] part of those statistics, which, you know, infuriated me, but at the same time, you know, once I was well enough to rationalize things mentally, I was not that surprised. So I think the solution has to be at least two-fold. Trans women of color, especially black trans women, are the most statistically likely, and some of them are sex workers, because it is very difficult in this society to be a trans person of color--again, especially a black trans woman--and look for gainful employment without the discrimination that's rampant out there, so some people turn to sex work as part of a way to combat poverty. You know, it's a survival tactic, so we've got to look at poverty. We've got to look at systemic racism and transphobia in the workplace, how that impacts queer and trans folk--especially queer and trans folk of color--and their ability to just simply go out, work, and making a living? So we're looking at, you know, the need for--in my opinion, we've got to have a federal equality legislation put in. It can't be just state-to-state anymore. There's got to be a federal bill outlawing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity in the workplace, and that in and of itself will be huge in helping, like I said, trans folk of color working. You know, having [?] and helping with poverty. And on the other hand, you know, we've got to keep educating society, and keeping queer and trans folk in the history books, keeping queer and trans folk in mind when you're teaching anything, from musical history to, you know, American history, we've got to keep queer and trans folk in mind, not only in, you know, traditional high school, college education, but also, you know, in the workplace. Are we, you know, not only having these--I think the word "diversity" lately, but are we having, you know, diversity or educational workshops in our organizations? You know, are we teaching teachers, for example, to better understand their trans and queer students? You know, so it's got to be--you've got to have a nuanced approach to solving the issue, but at the end of the day it all starts with legislation and education. Liz: That is a very powerful statement, and I so am with you in terms of the issues with poverty and lack of accessibility of gainful employment and job opportunities. Because when you take away the opportunities for people to pursue legitimate work, then you literally leave them with no other options, and that is--I mean, that's just an untenable position in which to place people as a civilization, as a civilized society.Noah: Right. Now, you said the word legitimate, and I just want to emphasize that, you know, sex work is also work. I am pro-sex worker rights, and I think that should also be legalized in order to help people who are in sex work and don't want to be in it anymore, be able to get out of it freely, and also for people that are victims of sex trafficking, to be able to go to authorities and say what's going on without fear of being arrested for sex work. So that's a whole other issue, but it is, you know, unfortunately very, very related to trans folk who are in poverty and go that route. Does that make sense?Liz: That totally makes sense, and that's actually--I really [admire?] you calling [me out on that]. Help me. How should I draw the contrast? How else can I describe it?Noah: I mean, I think it's simply a matter of people finding the work that they really [?] to do. You know, if somebody wants to be a sex worker in the realm of, let's say, [?], being part of [?] or, you know, even--you know, if it's [?] boudoir photography. There are many, many different things that are sex work besides prostitution, so we have to look at it, you know, again, in a [?] way, and, you know, just look at things in the matter of "Why do people sometimes end up in jobs they don't like?" Well, it's not just--it's not just sex work obviously. Some of us end up in cubicles doing hum-drum, super monotonous things just because we want to have some sort of income to pay the [light bill?], you know? So just looking at it more broadly, I just feel like sex work as a whole needs to be destigmatized and looked at it as, again, something that some people do because they absolutely want to and something that others do, just like any other job, because they're just trying to find a source of income. So looking at it in a way that takes the shame out of it. Does that make sense?Liz: That totally makes sense, and thank you for that and for educating me on that. You've talked about your own search for employment. I mean, I know now you recently finished your graduate degree and very unfortunately, tragically, your next steps were put on hold by your assault and your injury, but now you are getting yourself back out there and you are looking for and pursuing new opportunities. You talked a little bit earlier about how you are specifically, you know, looking for organizations where you can be yourself, where you [?], because that's--you're out of the closet. And so I'm curious, how have you been evaluating potential places of work? Is that a privilege--is being able to do that a privilege? Going back to the topic that we were just on.Noah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, great question. I do take into account the fact that I do have privilege in certain areas. I have educational privilege that I know a lot of my peers, you know, just weren't able to have, either because of their grades in high school, not being able to go to college, or financially not being able to even, you know, get to the college they were accepted to. Graduate school, that obviously makes me, you know, hyper-privileged as far as education is concerned. So I'm very, very grateful to have been able to attain these things in my life. Again, I currently live in New England. I'm in Massachusetts, and another piece of my privilege that a lot of people don't have is the ability to decide if I'm gonna go home, back to my home state of Texas, and work, or if I'm gonna stay in this particular state. Right now my journey is keeping me here in Massachusetts #1, first and foremost, because, you know, ironically enough, I feel safer here, despite the TBI. I feel safer as far as [?] treated at a place of employment, whether I end up at an organization or end up at an institution of higher learning or back in public education. We just passed Proposition 3, which was legislation--going back to legislation being important. Massachusetts now has it in the books that it is illegal to discriminate in public spaces. If someone's gender identity or sexual orientation, military status, or so many factors--any of those things, all of those things, are now protected under Massachusetts law regarding, again, public accommodations, as well as employment. So as far as that goes, I'd feel safer if I were to work up here in Massachusetts, versus Texas where--and people forget this--you can still be fired for being gay. You can still be fired for being queer, being bisexual, transgender. You can still be fired in Texas [for those]. So that's been a huge part of my decision-making as far as geographically where I'm gonna stay. And also looking at, you know, different organizations. I've been looking at nonprofits, [?], and, you know, again, I'm blessed that most [employment?] where I could [?] are much more progressive, as far as, you know, treatment of employees. Not to say that New England is perfect by any means, you know? We've got our issues up here that we're constantly dealing with, hence, you know, continued activism and literally getting out on the streets and protesting, you know, awful things when they happen, but, yeah, like you said, I do consider my privilege. Also, now that I'm cis-passing, you know, I go to an interview now, [and] people listen to me rather than kind of look away like they used to when I was a masculine at center presenting woman versus now. And that's an entirely different conversation, the difference of how I get received and how much more people listen when you have a male voice versus what it was before.Liz: Yes. I think the patriarchy is an entirely different conversation.Noah: Oh, absolutely. [laughs] An entirely different one.Liz: So Noah, looking toward the future and thinking about, you know, your legacy and what, you know, what you want to create and [?] in this world and what, you know, what the imprint that you're going to make is, where do you see--the arc of your career, your activism, your journey--where do you see that going, and what is your--what's your hope for the future and for those listening who are still not able to be living their fully authentic selves in the place that they're in? What words of encouragement do you have?Noah: That's such a beautiful question. I do want to have children at some point. You know, when you said the word "legacy," I immediately thought of not just the physical things that I'll leave behind and not just, you know, words I'll leave behind, but I actually do want to have children at some point, and, as corny as it sounds, leave them with a better world than what I came in with, you know? A school I used to teach at, we had this statement - we'd always leave a place better than we found it, and I would teach the kids--usually just me walking into the cafeteria and, you know, picking up trash, or, you know, going on a field trip and making sure to wipe your shoes before you walk in and step on carpet. You know, it's more than just that. It's literally "let's leave this entire planet better than we found it," and so I've kept that as a mantra with me. So, you know, as far as that goes, I would love to--I have one book I've written of short stories that I'm seeking to get published. I want to leave some writing behind. I've been debating on whether or not to write a memoir or whether or not that would be--if I would be doing it for the right reasons or being visible for the sake of others and not ego, then I may pursue that in the future, but I want my personal legacy to be education [?], whether it's, you know, just teaching students, high school and college level, and impacting their lives in that way, or whether it's through my writing or through my activism. I want to leave more knowledge behind and more visibility for queer and trans folk. As far as, you know, this next generation, I'm actually so super hopeful when I look at Generation Z, which I think is what they want to be called. I'm not sure.Liz: We'll let them self-identity.Noah: We'll let them self-identity. Exactly. [laughs] Where we come, what I call the "Oregon Trail" generation, you know, growing up, we experienced so many beautiful things after Stonewall, but we weren't there yet regarding, you know, certain things, like marriage equality. Okay, we've got marriage equality. What's the next step? Well, we're looking at, again, you know, having a federal anti-discrimination bill that includes gender identity and sexual orientation. You know, it's been 50 years since Stonewall. I don't want it to take another 50 years for me to be--and my words of encouragement, you know, folks that are still in the closet and for the younger folk coming out as queer, trans, non-binary, keep fighting the good fight. There's so much left to be done, despite all of the things that we've accomplished. We can't stop. We can't get comfortable. That's when things regress. So we've got to keep fighting the good fight, and again, we need legislation [and] we need education.Liz: Well, I [?] on that. When I hear the word "fight," I definitely think of you and carrying the fight forward, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willing to be so open and candid and authentic with me and with our listeners on this podcast and for really sharing so many of your stories, because that is how we are going to really get to know each other, and when we do that we'll actually really see each other.Noah: Thank you so much for having me. It really is an honor. Liz: Thanks so much.

Zach sits down with Cedric Chambers, the founder and CEO of JUMP Recruits, to discuss the definition of the term "diversity" and the concept of diversity of thought. Cedric also offers a few recommendations to CEOs and chief HR officers who want to see their organization become more diverse.Check out JUMP Recruits and connect with Cedric on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and today is another day, another dope interview. Y'all know how we do, okay? So this is not--okay, like, we're coming up on--shoot, actually, let me say this. By the time this episode drops, we might be past 100 episodes, you know what I'm saying? Might have already hit the century mark. In fact, let me go ahead and hit these air horns just--you know, just in case we hit it already by the time this one drops, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] You know, for those who don't know, Living Corporate amplifies the voices of black and brown folks at work. We interview executives, influencers, creatives, movers and shakers, the next folks up. You know, the real ones, you know what I'm saying? Come on. Like, all skin folk ain't kinfolk, okay? That's another podcast from the day. Those who know know what I'm saying. But we interview the real ones, okay? And today is no different with Cedric Chambers. Cedric is dedicated to enhancing the presence of diversity and inclusion in the workplace one client at a time. As the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, Cedric partners with talented professionals and leading employers to diversify and improve the workforce culture within leading industries and growing sectors. Sound Man, you know what? We gotta drop some more air horns for Cedric. Come on, now. [air horns sfx] And I gotta add one of these Cardi B "ow"s, you know what I'm saying? ["ow" sfx] Just because. Cedric, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Cedric: I'm doing wonderful, Zach. Man, you are amazing. That was the best intro I probably ever heard. [both laugh]Zach: Man, I know I gave you a little intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Cedric: Yes. Well, look, to give kind of the full but be quick about it--so I'm originally from Georgia. Not Atlanta, Columbus, Georgia. And so--actually a little small town about two hours southwest of Atlanta. Grew up, played football, went to college, did my undergrad playing football, graduated from Savannah State with a business degree. I did a little work, you know, in the industry for about a year or so, went back and got my master's at THE Ohio State University, majored in labor and human resources, but then immediately after I got my degree I went into corporate America, spending almost 10 years in HR in various areas in a few different industries, including aviation, medical device, life sciences, pharma. You know, I've had the--over that time I've had the pleasure of traveling all over the world, and I've had opportunities to live in a few different places across the Midwest and Northeast of the United States, and so, you know, what I do and the experiences I bring, right, I believe are one of the values that I hold. I have a wonderful family, a beautiful wife of five years and two incredible kids. And as you mentioned, I am the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, and so just to give a brief, Jump Recruits is a full-service diversity and inclusion technology start-up, and it's dedicated to and about inclusion, opportunity, and successful career outcomes for diverse professionals and employers seeking quality diverse talent. And I've been on this journey for almost three years, actually three years, and like Charles Dickens said, "It's been the best of times, it's been the worst of times," but to be honest, through it all, I wouldn't change anything.Zach: First of all, man, you were talking about I gave one of the best intros. That was one of the best, you know what I'm saying, guest intros. It was just--it was, you know, comprehensive, right? You gave a little bit of the sensitive side with the family tip. You gave some of your vulnerable side on the journey with Jump Recruits, and then you gave a bit of, like, just the history of kind of where you're from and what you did. As a side-note, shout-out to the Georgia boys. I was actually born in Rome, Georgia.Cedric: There you go. Look there, you're country too, man. [laughs]Zach: Oh, listen, with a K. [both laugh]Cedric: And that's the one thing--look, we can talk about it as we get into it, right, but I've been in different environments and, you know, traveling across, and I have a deep Southern dialect, and when I go into different places people immediately, you know, hear that. And so we'll probably get into that a little bit later, but, you know, it's all good, right? Embrace where you come from and just be authentic.Zach: Oh, no doubt, man. And, you know, it's just interesting because for me--just because of my exposure. So I went to--I was in Georgia, and then I went to Dallas, and then I went to Minnesota. So, like, my accent kind of comes and goes, or the drawl of my Southern--like, my Southern drawl kind of will recede or kind of extend during--just depending on the situation, right? But at the same time it don't matter about that part. I tell people all the time. I say, "Listen, don't let this pocket square fool you, okay? I'm very country. Don't play with me." [both laugh] Cedric: I'm with you.Zach: Yeah, man. So look, we're talking today about diversity. It's a super common term, right? And honestly a lot of folks use the term "diversity and inclusion" in a broad swath of ways, right? So, like, for you though, what does diversity mean?Cedric: Yes, great question. So, you know, I would say that, you know, when I think about diversity and the term, right, to me, what I pull from it is uniqueness in every way. You know, whether that be race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, perspective, et cetera. You know, when I think about diversity, I think about the setting and context in which it's being applied and the term, because diversity can have different meanings in different places depending on where you're applying it, right? And so, you know, I've lived around. And so living in Atlanta, diversity can be different than living in Wisconsin, where I've lived, can be different than living in Boston, where I've lived, can be different than living in Ohio, where I've lived, but that commonality that I think of is uniqueness and what are you bringing that's unique, what are you bringing that is one yourself authentic as I said before, but I always think about that is when we want to use this word "diversity" and think about "Yes, things are different," but in a different way, you know, how are you unique, and how are you bringing that uniqueness, you know, to everything that you're doing?Zach: You know, and it's interesting, right? Because a lot of times when we talk about diversity I think, like you just said, it's, like, uniqueness in every way. In every way, right? Checking a variety of boxes, right? Just what does it look to be non-standard or non-default? And so with that being said, I'm curious, do you have any particular thoughts around the concept of diversity of thought, and have you ever gotten that pushback in your work with Jump Recruits--they'll be like, "Okay, I see you have all of these, you know--" "You know, ethnic diversity is the only diversity. [?]. Diversity of thought." Like, what do you--[both laugh] When you hear that, like, what is your response?Cedric: Oh, man. I'm not gonna make it through this interview. [both laugh]Zach: Nah, I'ma keep it a bean with you. I'ma keep it a bean with you, right? Because when people say "diversity of thought" to me--I don't know how long you've been rocking with the Living Corporate podcast, and I'm actually surprised we didn't get canceled off of this joke, [Cedric laughs] but one time--and I'ma say it again so y'all have the opportunity to cancel me again. I said that white people made diversity of thought in the same lab they made crack. [both laugh] So you know--so now you know the Living Corporate official position, and yes--look, there's nobody y'all can complain to. Y'all listening to the podcast, if y'all got a problem the emails are gonna come to me and Ade, okay? So be mad, all right? Anyway, back to this interview. So Cedric, what your thoughts on diversity of thought, man? [laughs]Cedric: Look, and perspectives, right? You know, I hear a lot of things, and perspective, right, you've got to understand people's perspective, right? And even what you said, like, you know, I can see the perspective, right, and that's the one thing. You've got to come with an open mind and an open heart into situations, but, you know, thinking about diversity of thought--so, you know, unfortunately I have heard "diversity of thought" and have, you know, seen it used as a pushback, and when I hear it it's typically used in the context of either/or, and what I mean is when I'm having these discussions, and, you know, we could be talking about, you know, diversity, we could be talking about ethnicity and these things, and they bring up diversity of thought. They're saying that either I focus on having diversity of race, gender, sexuality, or I focus on having diversity of thought, which is not the way it should be looked at, right? And so it should be viewed as an and, meaning, like, yes, you should value diversity of thought, and then addition value diversity of background," i.e. race, gender, sexuality, et cetera. But so many people take that position of, you know, "I can't value both, and so I'ma go with the safest way out and say I value diversity of thought as a whole," and depending on how long you let those people talk, right, you can get down into the rabbit holes of, you know, the common terms of "I don't see color," X, Y, and Z, right? So, you know, that's a whole podcast by itself. [both laugh] But, you know, when I've encountered it as a pushback, you know, whether it be clients, prospects, or just in general casual conversations, I usually approach it from the perspective of "Hey, look, you're right. Diversity of thought is important and critical to the success of the team, organization, and relationships," but then I always follow up in that discussion with the question of "Well, then how do you acquire diversity of thought?" Because how a person thinks is heavily based on experiences and backgrounds, and if you aren't pulling from different pools and different backgrounds which have different experiences, then how do you achieve this goal of diversity of thought you're ultimately looking for? And I typically at this point get blank stares, [both laugh] which is great for me because now the real conversation can start, and we can start on even ground to say, "Okay, now let's talk through it and work this out."Zach: Man, you know, that's a great answer, and, you know, I'll tell you what I typically say, right? So, for background, right, I'm in change management. Like, I'm a consultant, so, like, I'm having these conversations where people say "diversity of thought," I'll say something like, "Well, you're absolutely right. Diversity of thought is important, and it directly intersects or it is correlated with diversity of race, gender, sexuality, so on and so forth." Those things are not mutually exclusive, right? On the outside they're giving me the blank stares that they give you, but on the inside I know they're doing a [“and I oop” sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh] They trying to figure out like, "Okay, what do I do?" You know what I'm saying? So I definitely get that. So let's do this then. What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard organizations give as to why they don't have black and brown folks in their organizations? I'm talking black and brown disabled people, black and brown LGBTQ people, black and brown immigrants, black and brown--like, just why? Why is that? What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard?Cedric: You know, I'd probably go with the biggest that I've heard, seen, and I think everybody kind of rallies around, but the biggest is that there's an issue with the pipeline and that there isn't enough qualified black and brown talent for those companies to pull from. Which is totally false, right? Zach: Yeah, man.Cedric: And it's like--I'm not gonna go into why do we keep listening to that lie, [both laugh] so--Zach: Well, I think--let me shoot you some bell, right? I think for me it's challenging because it's like--one, I don't think people, like, really examine or really have examined how offensive and insulting that is, right?Cedric: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Like, fam, come on, man. Like, we've been here. Like, so--Cedric: It's like you're doing what you can do, you're pushing out the best, and then someone says, "Well, I still don't see you."Zach: Come on, man.Cedric: And that's where it's coming from. Like, it's like we got so many great, you know, whether it be engineers graduating, you've got so many great doctors, you've got so many great scientists, right? We're doing so many things in the news, and it's still, like, this message of "I still don't see you."Zach: And we're all over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? Like, God. Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And look, I won't be naive to think that there are as many people of color as there are non-people of color, so I won't bet that, but for instance, like, we know that, for a fact, there are less black and brown engineers that graduate for college every year than their counterparts, and the National Society of Black Engineers have done a lot of great research in this area, and they actually have campaigns going on now to increase that number of black engineers graduating every year, black and brown. But what we also know is that from having these discussions daily with corporate leaders as I do, these same organizations are not going to the places and communities where black and brown people are, and they are not effectively attracting and hiring the great talent that's already in the market today. And if I could provide an illustration for you real quick - look at it like this. If I want to go catch a fish, I can't possibly do that by casting my line on land. I must cast in the water where the fish are, and that's what is happening today. Many companies--not all, and I will say not all, but many are casting in the wrong places, and as I see this conversation over and over and I hear this excuse, the question that I often ask myself or that, you know, we must ask is "Are companies knowingly casting in the wrong places because they don't want black and brown talent, or are they misinformed on where to cast?" And honestly I think it's both.Zach: That's a--hold on, hold on. Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] That's a Flex bomb. Yeah, no, you're right. I think it's both. I don't think it's one or the other, and I think really when you talk about these topics, it's often a case of both/and, right? It's rarely ever one versus the other. Because I've had conversations, and I'm--look, I have a nuanced opinion on this, right? Like, when you talk about sourcing candidates--and so, like, you know, you'll hear organizations say, "We're gonna just recruit at all HBCUs." Okay. Yes, you should definitely recruit at the HBCUs, but there's also black and brown folks at the PWIs too, man. [both laugh] Like, all of the black people--like, man all of the black people are not just flocking to HBCUs. HBCUs are expensive. Like, I love me some HBCUs. Ayo, please, y'all, do not cancel me. We love y'all. PV, I see you. Okay? Prairie View, we see you, okay? Texas Southern, we see you. Cedric: Savannah State. Let's go. [laughs]Zach: Savannah State, we see you. Morehouse. Listen, we love y'all, okay? I'm just saying I went to a PWI, and there were many black and brown folks in my space who did not know what they was doing when they graduated, right? So there's talent there. They're in the same rooms with Becky and Keith and whoever else. Like, it's both, man, and I don't know why, but when I hear, like, "pipeline strategies," I hear--I hear--when we talk about minority talent, ethnic minority talent, it's like we're not even trying to think about how we plug into the PWIs. We just say, "Oh, we're just gonna go with the HBCUs." It's like, "You can do both. You can plug into the HBCUs and then look for and look at the student programs," 'cause every PWI has one, right? Every PWI has some program where the black and brown folks have huddled together to say, "Pick us." [laughs] So, like, you just gotta plug in.Cedric: You know, that's right, and it's--the word I'm going to say, for lack of better terms, is laziness. That's what it is, and it's the--you know, being in corporate, right, I've done HBCUs, I've done the PWI. There is a stark difference between the two as far as the resources and opportunities between the two, where I was in a career fair at, you know, HBCUs to where you're talking 20 to 30 companies, a lot of 'em banks and local banks, a lot of 'em militaries--the military is trying to recruit, but then go to PWI, and, like, you're talking about 200 of the Fortune 500 companies in here vying for spots, right? So the opportunity and resources--and then on top of that, when you engage with HBCUs and HSIs and the communities--and let's say this quickly--it's that it's more than money. That's what happened. It's "Hey, let's go give scholarships. Hey, let's go out and let's see, you know, what we can do from a recruiting effort." It's just transactional the entire time, and when you think about big schools, right, to where--whether it's the PWIs, and you think about some of these big companies. One of the biggest differences--if you want to come to an HBCU or an HSI, I need you to look at this long-term, and I need you to look at this and say, "We're talking about money, but not just money, we're talking about resources," i.e. training and development, and there are many institutions--predominantly white--where large companies are staples on their campuses, teaching them the skills and knowledge needed to be successful, not only today but in the future. I mean, these companies have offices in their career development office, right, and they're talking about data analytics, A.I., machine learning. And these companies even have--some of their senior officers are subject matter experts at these campuses teaching the classes. Zach: Man, they be in there. They be hitting up--they tapping every avenue of that relationship like [Cardi B "brat" sfx]. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? They light that thing up.Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And so when you think about all of those resources, then you turn around and say, "Well, look, let's give a scholarship to somebody," or "Let's go out and let's go to this career fair," and then they don't see you again for another 12 months. It's how d you expect to build that pipeline? How do you expect to build that relationship, that brand and all of the little things that come along with it, if you're not invested? Now, I'ma say this, that's not all, but there's definitely a lot that's [?].Zach: Man, you're 100%. So look, I'm also gonna say something else. Cedric, I don't know, man, what [it is] about this interview, but I just feel like I gotta keep it a buck today. We keep it a buck on Living Corporate generally speaking. Like, don't get me wrong. We be dropping heat on here, okay? Hold on. Wait a second. Shout-out to my team, 'cause, like, we really be doing this, you know what I'm saying? [Kawhi "what it do baby" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here, okay? [both laugh] But this is my biggest thing. This is another personal pain point, right, is like we gotta make sure that when black and brown folks--like, when we go out to these HBCUs and, like, we're doing this stuff, like, we have to also bring this thought leadership and take it to the folks who are in charge, right? So, like, we gotta be talking to the recruitment teams, 'cause a lot of times--I'll say in consulting, right? I'm not gonna say the firm. I've been at a few. So I was at a firm, and, like, there was this common narrative that there was an HBCU that we did not hire for, like, the client-facing stuff. We only hired them for the technical stuff, and the reason was because they don't really have the skill set, right? And, like, we would, like--I'm saying, like, the black folks, like, we would lean into that narrative, like, "Yeah, they don't have the skill set. They're just not really--" And it's like, "Okay, first of all, what are you doing? Like, why would you--don't parrot that out loud." Like, let's figure out ways we can help our people. And then two let's, like, just ask the deeper why and think critically about "Well, why don't we believe they have that skill set, and what can we do to help develop that skill set?" And all of the things that you're talking about are 100% facts, but I think it takes a--it's gonna take a joint effort, right? And I 100% agree with you. So let's do this, 'cause I know we're coming up on time. So multiple whitepapers state that before organizations can seek to diversify their organizations, they should seek to diversify leadership and build an inclusive culture. What's your point of view on that, and what does it practically look like for you to help organizations be more inclusive at the leadership level before you start bringing in, like, the campus level undergrad, direct hire talent?Cedric: Oh, man, great question. I think--let's see if I can get both of these. So when it comes to diversity and inclusion, my perspective and point of view is that they have to have it at the same time, and I think that there are different levels at which they happen at. Like, you could float heavy to inclusion but then still do diversity and recruitment and things of that nature and vice versa, but it depends on the organization in which you're in, the culture and what's going on. And I start with inclusion first just to kind of go into it and say, "Let's think this for a second and say, "How do you build an inclusive culture if you don't have any representation, i.e. diversity, from the groups in which you're aiming to affect?" And so--and without this representation, this means that there's nobody from these groups that are able to input on the design of this diversity and inclusion strategy. And so when you talk about this inclusive culture, you have less than 1% of [?] in the organization, you know, less than 20%, you know, women in your organization, how are you gonna go and effectively--and on a leadership level it's definitely not there--how are you gonna go in and actually do this if the representation is not there? And so when you think about diversity, you gotta "Okay, are we bringing leadership in at the same of building that inclusive culture and doing those things at the top and then pushing it down?" As it relates to leadership, look, I would agree, but it goes back to representation, right? How can you effectively have a diversity and inclusion strategy driven from the top down when the top has no representation from the diverse groups in which you're designing for? And so I also say this. We surveyed candidates that had been hired and had received offers from companies. 87% of those candidates that we surveyed say that one of the first things they do when researching the company they're interviewing with is go to the leadership page and see who on the page looks like them. And then--Zach: Keep going, keep going. Preach.Cedric: And of that, 60% of that group say that that was a major factor on whether they accepted the job or not. And if you'll allow me to go just a step further, one of the things we do in our consulting area looks at, like, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and when you think about the top of that pyramid, and we get to self-actualization, the definition of self-actualization is "the realization of one's full potential." So let's think about this. How can I realize my full potential within an organization when I go to the corporate leadership page and I see no one that looks like me? And then how can that help me see myself as rising my career aspirations when I can't see myself on the website, I can't see myself in leadership, you know? I didn't see myself in the interview process with the people that I interviewed with. How can I actually see myself thriving in this organization? I can't.Zach: [straight up sfx, both laugh] No, you can't. Cedric, man, it's so funny. So what I've been doing--'cause I'm coming up on 30, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever.Cedric: Big time.Zach: Man, listen. It's different, man. Things creaking now, you know what I'm saying? Knees be sore for no reason. It's weird.Cedric: I know. It starts raining and your knee hurts, right?Zach: Right. It's like, "What's going on?" Cedric: Yeah, it's coming. It's coming.Zach: [both laugh] But you're 100% right. Like, lately when I do--like, when I interview, right, when I have the opportunity and people reach out, whatever, I'll always ask, like, "How imperative is your inclusion and diversity strategy at your organization?" They'll say, "Oh, it's very imperative. It's super important. Blah blah blah blah," and I'm like, "Okay, cool." So then I go, you know what I'm saying, I go to the little executive page, right, and, you know, the board looks like--you know, the first, you know, seven, eight presidents like [haha sfx]. I'm like, "Come on, man. Y'all not seeing this, man? This is crazy. This looks like a bunch of dollar bills up here." Like, this is crazy.Cedric: [laughs] Exactly, but that's representation, and so that's diversity, you know, from a recruitment aspect, adding them to the mix, and then inclusion is working on the other hand, trying to make it work. And so you're trying to do both, right? It's almost like--you know, in some cases, right--I mean, I'm from the country, right? And so there's certain cases and certain things where you need to mix and you need to pour stuff in at the same time to get that evenly distributed, and that's the diversity, right, man? You pour the diversity in while you're stirring the inclusion, and you're doing it at the same time, with both hands, because you need for it to evenly get into the mix so that when you look at the cake mix and batter it's something that you can go in and move forward with, right? It's not clumped up. It's not over here. It's not--I'm not gonna say segregated or whatever the case may be, right? You know, things are mixed in together, but they still have their identity, man. So it's--you know, it's interesting.Zach: Let me go ahead and saute on that metaphor, that analogy you got right there. So it's interesting, because even when you make a cake--'cause honestly I thought you were gonna go with, like, a sweet tea analogy, but either way, with sweet tea or cake, right, you gotta make sure you add heat to that jaunt so that way it actually, like, actually comes together, because--and even though that heat might be uncomfortable or may seem uncomfortable, you've got to put on some gloves or whatever and you've got to put it in the oven. You've got to wait, but it's gonna all congeal for the cake--or you gotta turn up the dial on the stove to make sure it gets hot enough so everything can come together, so it can actually merge into one thing that you can actually consume, that you can actually enjoy. It's the same thing, man. In that mixing process, you've got to add some heat to that. That heat might be, you know, accountable conversations, you know? True planning around how we're actually gonna make all this happen, how we're gonna mobilize our inclusion strategy, what does it mean to, like, really build a culture of sponsorship for your organization, and then that creates that culture that you're talking about.Cedric: There you go, there you go. I'm with it. I'm with it. [laughs]Zach: Now, look, let me respect your time. I got one more question for you.Cedric: Go for it, man. I'm here.Zach: What recommendations would give to the average white executive/power holder who wants their organization to be more diverse but isn't getting the talent they're looking for--they're not seeing the talent, you know, at the executive level?Cedric: Oh, man. That's a loaded question. You said white executive/power holder. [both laugh] I'll say this, and I'll say this for all senior executives, not just white--and I'ma primarily speak to CEOs and chief HR officers on this one--look, if you've decided that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the success of your organization, then I think you need to take this approach. First, go out and hire you a chief diversity officer. That's step one. Step two: for the first five to seven years on this journey, that chief diversity officer needs to report directly to the CEO. Not HR, not strategy, not social responsibility or impact. Have them reporting directly to the CEO. This not only will have a visual impact, but it will solidify that just like finance, just like strategy, just like engineering, just like HR, that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the business and it has a direct line to the highest of the high. And I believe it was Steve Jobs that said this, and he said it in the context of design. It's that "If a part of your business is so important to the CEO, it must report to the CEO," because then only can that organization place the same importance on it as the CEO does, and so you're going out and you're saying, "Hey, we believe in diversity," but then the diversity officer is four layers down in the organization [train?] and doesn't have any say-so, power, or ability to go make things happen. But now when that person reports directly to the CEO, and we're talking top-down--they say, "Hey, this is the move, and this is where we're going," and that person is right there, direct communication can get things signed off, accomplished, done quick. That puts you in a better position to be able to accomplish that goal.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's interesting because I think that kind of transitions--that transitions that D&I space from being just, like, another thing that's, like, in the compliance piece into something that becomes, like, a strategy imperative for the enterprise, right? A lot of times when we think about diversity we're just thinking about ways to avoid, you know, this sound, right? [Law and Order sfx] You know, just trying to make sure you don't get in trouble, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Cedric: Oh, man. And also, look--so I was in HR, right? In every organization that I supported, you got the business leader, you got the HR person, you got the finance person, you got quality, you got engineers, but they're in that organization. And so HR is in every organization. Finance is in every organization, right? And so diversity is in every organization. The same way you look at diversity of people, you should be looking at diversity of suppliers. The same way you're looking at diversity of marketing, the way you're looking at diversity and how you're looking at your strategy, where you're going--like, diversity is embedded in every one of those, and if it doesn't have that same vertical as the strategy/HR/finance organization, then how can it have the horizontal piece to where it cuts across all to be able to have that impact and show up in the every day workings and doings of how people act and how they work and how they do their jobs?Zach: No, 100%, man. You know what? You've been dropping bar-bar-bars, man. Like, just [Mario coin sfx x2]. You know what I'm saying?Cedric: [laughs] I love it, man. I love it.Zach: Man, I love it. Now, this has been a dope conversation. Before we go, do you have any shout-outs or parting words?Cedric: Oh, man. Look, I would say one, you know, shout-out to Jump Recruits, right? You can go find more information at JumpRecruits.com. Look, you know, the team, shout-out to my family and my wife, and look, I would say shout-out to all of the leaders, the employees, the janitors, whoever it may be that's out there actively pushing diversity, out there actively pushing inclusion, whether it be in your small circle and you're influencing those around you or whether it's at a large, large scale. Congrats, and I thank you, and I ask you to continue, to continue to push and continue to be--you don't have to be an activist, but you do have to be active. And so, look, continue to do great things, and I just--I love it.Zach: Wow, man. Yo, shout-out--man, round of applause, man, for Cedric, man. [applause sfx] My goodness gracious, man. This has been great, man. Thank you, and thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, you know what I'm saying? Look, we've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate. all of 'em except livingcorporate.com, Cedric, believe it or not, 'cause Australia's still got livingcorporate.com, and I'm like, "Man." So I don't know what we gotta do--Cedric: All of that. We're coming to talk to you, Australia. We're gonna have a conversation. 20/20. We need that. We need that.Zach: We need that. We need that. Look, man, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Cedric Chambers, CEO and founder of Jump Recruits. Peace.

Sheneisha speaks with Dr. Kennetth Joseph about what it's like to be a first-generation American or immigrant working in corporate America right now. He shares his unique insight and experiences with us and more.Connect with Kennetth on LinkedIn and IG!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: What's going on, family? It's Sheneisha of Living Corporate, and today we're gonna have that conversation. We're gonna have that conversation of "What is it like to be a first time/generation American or immigrant in America right now working in corporate?" "What is it like to have a seat at the table?" And not only have a seat at the table as a person of color, but to have a seat at the table carrying the torch for your family, for your generation - being the first to do it. What are those experiences like? And today we have Dr. Kennetth Joseph, who is a pharmacist--a strategic pharmacist working for one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in America right now. Kennetth is going to share his insight on what it's like to be the first, what has been his experience, what has he been exposed to, and his outlook on being the first-generation American within his family to work at a corporate capacity. And if you guys haven't already--I don't know why you haven't, but--go ahead and give us 5 stars for the podcast, as well as follow us on Instagram. I hope you guys enjoy the conversation that is being had between Kennetth and myself, and just stay tuned. All right, Ken. So how do you identify yourself? We're speaking on first-generation American immigrant in corporate America. How does Kennetth--Dr. Kennetth Joseph--identify himself?Kennetth: Great question. I mean, first and foremost I feel like being "the famous first," as what my family likes to call it, it's just a blessing and an honor, and if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have made it this far, because they [?] me along the way. Now, in regards to how I identify myself, I am a Haitian-American. You know, my parents came here in the '80s from Haiti, and the rest is history.Sheneisha: All right, all right. I hear you. [?] '80s. All right. [laughs] Okay, so as a first-generation Haitian-American, how do you identify yourself in corporate America? Do you still identify yourself as a Haitian-American, or are you just black American, American--like, how do you identify yourself in corporate?Kennetth: Yeah. Good color and clarity to the question, because it's still the same. I make a good point at work, even in a corporate capacity, to make sure folks know that I am Haitian-American. Everybody knows I'm from South Florida. There's palm trees on my desk. Everyone knows I'm Haitian first and then American. I speak Creole. You know, at the times we play music at work I play some kompa (konpa), so I really try to embrace my culture and not let corporate America dictate who I am as a person and where I came from.Sheneisha: I definitely think that's major. I know a lot of times we can have the whole identity crisis in corporate America, trying to conform to what they would like us to be or what they would assume that we should be in that capacity. It's almost as if you identify as anything else outside of just black, African-American, then it's almost as if you're challenging the culture. Or am I a little bit too far off to the left?Kennetth: Well, I'll say yes [?], right? So when you think about [?], that's a bucket of everyone with more pigmentation to their skin, right? Some folks even put the darker-toned Indians or Mexicans under the bucket of "black" just because it's a color, right? The reason why I call out Haitian-America is because that's my culture, you know? Toussaint Louverture led the rebellion in the Caribbean that led to the rebellion in America by way of the Louisiana Purchase. So there's a lot of rich history and culture, so I use that to anchor myself, because it's that courage that I use, [?] my ancestors fought, that I continue to fight and, you know, kind of pave the way for the legacy I'm trying to leave on this earth. Sheneisha: That's real, that's real. Do you feel challenged by this when you're at work? Do you feel challenged when you walk the halls or sit at your desk or sit in a conference room?Kennetth: I do, honestly, to a degree. I'll say that, you know, working in corporate America, especially in pharma, you know, I have a [?]--I am a pharmacist by trade, but I'm the only pharmacist in my division. I'm the only black male in my division, and I'm the only Haitian [?], you know? So there's a lot of layers that I feel like I have to make sure I'm cognizant of, but I also try to [?] others within, you know, the layers of me, you know? Because being of a diverse background in a majority-white capacity, or majority Caucasian, for lack of a better word, you know, you must take it upon yourself to educate the masses. I feel like, you know, ignorance is a state of unawareness, right? So we use any opportunity to educate folks about our culture, be it African-American, be it Haitian-American, Jamaican-American, or even [pure?] thereof. That's why I really make a point of it. So if you asked anybody from the VP all the way down to the janitors, they all know I'm Haitian-American. Sheneisha: And then a first-generation American. So what influence does this have on your day-to-day interactions with your colleagues, being a first-generation Haitian-American? What influence do you think this has?Kennetth: I think it gives a greater sense of urgency. You know, like I said, my parents came to the states in the '80s. I'm the youngest of five. My parents actually had two kids that were in Haiti. Before they left, the kids were of age. They made the decision--my oldest siblings, my oldest brother and sister, they made the decision to stay in Haiti, so my mom and my dad came to South Florida. Once they got packing, made it to the area, and had to my two older brothers--excuse me, my older brother and my older sister and myself, for a total of five, that's when it really hit me, you know? Every time I think back to it. Like, "I'm my mom's last hope. I'm my dad's last hope." And, you know, it's funny when you go from the first--excuse me, from the last to the first. So that's why, you know, my family, they have the [notion of?] "the famous first," you know? So now I segue into being the first in my company as a first-generation Haitian-American, being the first black pharmacist on my team. It's a lot of newness, so it's--I don't know. It boggles my mind, but it also fuels me, and I think that knowing that I'm the first I have to continue to fight. So going back to that sense of courage, because, you know, walking into work every day when you're the only one that looks like you, walking into work every day where no one truly understands or sometimes even appreciates your background, but, you know, you take pride in it because that's your identity, that's who you are. So once again, that's why I try to educate folks, and any opportunity I have, you know, stopping by the bathroom, you know, walking to the bathroom or a quick drink of coffee, you know, having lunch, I always try to insert a little bit about my background, about my heritage, to better edify folks so they understand who I am, not just as an employer or coworker but as a person.Sheneisha: That's deep, that's deep. So you said before, and you mentioned I think, like, twice, about having to fight. What exactly are you fighting in corporate America as a first-generation American or immigrant? Like, what are you fighting against?Kennetth: Well, I guess I used the term fight because that's what life is, right? Life is a battlefield, and, you know, I have a competitive spirit, and I think [?] unlocks that competitive spirit when I use that type of word choice. So I'm very meticulous when it comes to word choice, 'cause words are the precursor to actions, but the fight itself is really just trying to understand how to navigate, you know? I'm big on mentorship as well, because I've been mentored throughout my entire life, throughout my matriculation in the College of Pharmacy and even thereafter, and I, you know, gave back in the same sense. So, you know, I'm a mentor to, you know, pharmacy students, business students, just folks across the nation either directly, by way of my alma mater [?], or folks just reaching out on LinkedIn. We hit it off, and they continue to come to me for insight and guidance, but the fight comes when, you know, the story changes, right? There's different phases in life, so growing up it was easy to get that guidance because there was always somebody willing to help, right? Call it more of a community-type ideal, right? It takes a village. So there's always somebody in the village that's willing to help, but that village you come from is people that look like you, come from the same backgrounds as you, have the same type of fight in themselves as you. You know, if it's an older individual, you know, they try to live vicariously through you, so they want to see you succeed. In corporate America, you know, it's more--it's almost like a lonely fight, you know, because since there's so little folks that look like you, let alone any [?] depend upon, you know, the division, the capacity, so on and so forth. You know, you may not interact with anybody who looks like you or understands you to that degree on a day-to-day. So for me it is a different sense of urgency and a fight, if you will, because it's a battle, right? And being the quote-unquote "famous first" in my family, I choose to fight. It's a noble fight, you know, because I came from a long legacy of fighters, going all the way back to the Haitian-American culture and heritage of Touissant Louverture, who led that rebellion once again. You know, I always make mention of that because it reminds me to rebel against the norm, you know? It's not every day that you see a first-generation Haitian-American go and get a terminal degree, leave South Florida, which is a comfort zone, you know, for my heritage and my background, go to Chicago where--although Chicago was actually founded by a Haitian Frenchman, there's not much Haitians in Chicago. So it's a neverending fight, but like I said, I use that term to kind of trigger myself to have that sense of courage and perseverance. Sheneisha: You mentioned about mentorship and being in corporate America and having a mentor. I want to do a shameless plug and talk about your Manhood on the Go foundation, where you are mentoring others as well--which I know you mentioned pharmacy students, business students, and those who reached out to you on LinkedIn. How did you come about being a part of Manhood on the Go? I want to do that brief segue. So how did you get into doing Manhood on the Go? Was it inspired, again, by you being a first-generation American?Kennetth: Yeah, and I would say because the actual founder is Iman Sandifer, a good friend of mine from South Florida as well. He is not Haitian. He is African-American, but it's once again that commonality of being from South Florida, being a first-generation, you know--I'll save his story for another day. Maybe he can share it through this platform, but it's that commonality when you're in the village, being that he came from where I came from. We had a lot of similar thoughts, you know? We were like-minded individuals trying to obtain that common goal. That common goal was, you know, breaking the barriers of the past and making sure that we're capitalizing on the opportunities of life. So I met Iman on the campus of Florida A&M University, and we just hit it off, you know? One of our greatest passions was mentorship, and I actually first met him while we were mentoring for a research program that was funded by Florida State University that had a research product that they were, you know, trying [?] comparative analysis on "at-risk youth," is what they call it, but it was basically kids that grew up like him and I grew up. So when he started the foundation and, you know, asked me to a part of it, you know, it didn't take much for me to just jump in full-heartedly and give it my all, because that's one of the places where we mesh well and we have that same goal. So now we just want to help folks that came from where we came from and are trying to head to, you know, bigger and better things like we are.Sheneisha: Look, that's powerful, to get out there and share what you've been given and to make sure that you're encouraging others to do the same and to go after things and having that passion and that drive. I think that's dope. That's dope. That's super dope.Kennetth: Yeah. I mean, it's reach as we climb, and each one teach one, right? So [?] came up with that name, Manhood on the Go. It's like--as a young black man in America myself, you know, I'm Haitian-American, himself a young African-American, but once again [?] is the notion of a black man, you know? We're always grinding, right? You know, we have that saying, [?], you know? It starts off in the village, if you will, and then once you go into your--whatever [?] you take but for others [?], right? So I remember I was going to class and class and then going to the extracurricular organizations, being in a fraternity, [?], myself being on a wrestling team, being a part of all of these different organizations on-campus, off-campus and the community. Always on the go, always on the go, but one of the things that we do is we put manhood first, because that's one of the biggest things for us, because we want to make sure that we keep that spirit up because there are [?] men looking at us. You know, there's qualities in him and I that other young men are looking for mentorship on, you know? So we always make sure that we're cognizant of that. You know, you never know who's looking at you. You never know who's aspiring to be like you, and, you know, folks may not always reach out for help, but you'd be surprised how much of an influence you could have, both indirectly and directly. So, you know, when folks reach out, it's a humbling experience for myself and for them, because, you know, that's how that connection is made, but even for those individuals who are just looking from afar, you know, that's that indirect influence that we're still keen on.Sheneisha: So speaking on influence, how do your culture impact your work ethic? Your work ethic, your relationships. Let's talk about that. How does your culture impact that?Kennetth: All right, we're going there. [laughs]Sheneisha: [laughs] Let's go all the way. Since we're here, let's go all the way.Kennetth: [laughs] I'll start off with work ethic. So, you know, both of my parents are, you know, extremely hard-working individuals. You know, going back to my upbringing, they have--well, I guess society would call it a blue-collar background, right? And I just remember my dad working tirelessly throughout the days, 'cause he was in construction. Like, it's a different beast when you have to wake up at 3:00 in the morning, be at work at 4:00, and you're not getting off until 7:00, you know? My mom worked at a hotel, and I remember growing up--while we were at school she was at home, and then while we were at home she was at work. So she'd work the evening shift because, you know, there's not much jobs for refugees so you have to get it how you live. And I remember her walking, you know, 10 miles to get to work during the hot sun, at the peak of the hot sun, and then walking home at night, you know, [through] crazy areas of South Florida. So it's a different--it's a different bite, if you will. You know, you gotta have that bite. I feel like I take those same work ethics with me to corporate America. You know, I'm not afraid to go in extra early, to leave extra late, just to make sure that I'm giving it my all, you know? I consider myself a subject matter expert in the area that I work in, and it's because I put in those hours that once I got to that point where I had that confidence to be considered a subject matter expert, that's when I put that knowledge to work, you know? It's always taking things to the next level. So to answer your question more directly, I think that's what my culture is as far as my work ethic. It's that grind, you know? No matter what your capacity is, because [?] a white-collar worker, but having that blue-collar background, that's what really feels--to me is the best part of being who I am, because it's a dangerous combination, but in a good way. Now, relationships... culturally? I mean, Creole is a combination of French and African dialects, so it's a combination of languages, and I feel like that French side of the culture is where the relationship aspect comes from, because, I mean, my parents were--my parents were lovers, you know? My dad was a lover and a provider. My mom was a lover and a nurser, and myself, I consider myself [?], you know? But I think that passion transcends into relationships as well. So I love hard, you know? Going back to that fight, you know, I'm always in a sense of the battle, right? Like I said, it's word choice. It's a play on words to kind of trigger myself to make sure I'm doing my best and my due diligence, but even in relationships, you know, I don't waste time fearlessly, you know, going out on dates and meeting folks. I take relationships seriously, because once again it goes back to the legacy I'm trying to leave, right? And knowing that, coming from where I came from and being where I am today, it's a blessing, you know? It's a powerful opportunity to maximize on this thing called life and all of the blessings that come with it. Sheneisha: Okay, okay. So how does that transcend your work relationships with your management, with higher-ups, with your colleagues. Those work relationships, how does your culture impact them as well?Kennetth: I think it's a good impact because my work relationships are strong, you know, industry-wide and within my company. In my previous capacities, when I was working for one of the largest pharmacy chains in America, I had more of a client-facing role. In my current role on the pharma side I'm more on an in-house capacity, but my previous role is where I built my industry relationships. You know, I was in a national position. I traveled all over the country, and now going to the pharma capacity, coming from the pharmacy world, it's a newfound appreciation for true pharmacy operations. And all the relationships that I built is based off my credibility and ability to be that subject matter expert. So they're confident in me and what I bring to the table, so building that relationship is natural. Also, you know, they often rely on me as, like, the consultant when it comes to things that fall under my niche, which is [?] pharmacy. So to answer your question more directly, 'cause I know I get to it roundabout sometimes, I feel like my culture, and just coming from that hard work ethic background, really provided me the opportunity to do my due diligence on the front end early in my career that allowed me to more easily establish relationships, you know, on the clock and off the clock. So I'm a genuine person. It doesn't matter the parameters or the confines or the time of the day, you know? Ken that you meet between the hours of 9-5 is the same Ken that you're gonna meet between the hours of 5-9, so.Sheneisha: Yeah, I definitely believe you should always, you know, be yourself regardless. I know it's kind of hard sometimes in that setting to be you when you're hard-pressed on every side and they want you to conform to the culture or what they have built and created, but going into that, you know, when does the switch happen? You know, when does the switch happen for you? I know sometimes they say we have the voice that we put on when we're at work or when we're around our colleagues, but when does the switch happen for Ken? To be you or to be who they want you to be in the work setting?Kennetth: Hm. So I'll share a funny story with you. When I graduated and got an opportunity to relocate to Chicago from Florida and work in a corporate capacity at the pharmacy headquarters, that's when the switch happened, because it--you know, I didn't always have this confidence in myself professionally. I didn't always have this confidence in my ability to [?] and, you know, try to edify folks with my culture, my background. It was a shock, you know? I grew up in South Florida, went to Florida A&M University [?]. HBCU, so, you know, came from a diverse set of people in South Florida. You know, HBCUs are known for being diverse with rich black cultures, you know, of all types. And then I moved to the suburbs of Chicago, where it was zero--and I looked it up on Wikipedia--it was 0.03 black.Sheneisha: Oh, wow.Kennetth: It was a shock, you know? It was one of the greatest learning lessons of my life, because it was at that time I had to make that decision - you know, do I switch to something new, or do I switch up the [swag?] of what folks do in that capacity. You know, black folks being surrounded by people who don't look like them, and try to conform to the environment. I chose to stay true to myself, you know? I call it my [enrollment campaign?]. Transform, not conform, and I made sure that I transformed into a new version of myself but stayed true to who I was at the core, and then that just continued on throughout the rest of my career up to date and hopefully until, you know, the end.Sheneisha: That's real, that's real. 'Cause I know a lot of times we get into the whole "impostor syndrome" or when you answer the phone, you know, in my environment, it goes from--if one of my friends calls me, "Hey, yo, what's up?" to if one of my colleagues call me, "Hi. Yes, you've reached Sheneisha." You know? [laughs] "Sheneisha speaking. How may I help you?" It's difficult, it's difficult, but I definitely believe you should always be who you are. And I love what you said. You know, transcend or conform to switch up the swag of who you are in this setting, to do it a different way and still be real authentic and what we call "keeping it 100," right? Keeping it a hunned. [laughs]Kennetth: Absolutely. And I will say, you know, there's a time and place for everything, right? So if I'm presenting different things of that nature, I will probably, you know, pull out some thesaurus words or--[laughs] the better jargon, if you will. Like I said, I'm myself to the core, and I feel like that genuine spirit is what has been the greatest precursor and potentiator of everything that has happened since leaving the highs of Florida A&M University.Sheneisha: That's real, that's real. So you're in Chicago now. You're working for Big Pharma, right? What has been your experience as a first-generation immigrant in corporate America?Kennetth: What has been my experience?Sheneisha: Yes. What has been your experience thus far? First-generation.Kennetth: I would say it's been amazing, you know? It hasn't all been sunshine and rainbows, [?] and cream, but like I said, when you have that thought process of that fight, that noble fight, and also that bite, that due diligence bite--that's my South Florida coming out--you can maximize on the opportunity and have not just the faith but the optimistic spirit [mustard seed?], you know? So I'm not hard to please, you know? Like I said, I came from humble beginnings. I'm not used to making the money I'm making today. I'm not used to [having] a lot of access to certain things and just the ability to have the opportunities that I have today. I'm not used to it, you know? So I thank God for it through it all, and my experience has been remarkable, you know? I feel like it's a breath of fresh air because--they say it's lonely at the top, right, and I'm nowhere near the top mind you, but as I continue to try to climb this ladder of life, you know, I just thank God for all of the people that's in my life, you know? Surrounding me with great friends, a family that supports me more than anybody that I can ever imagine. You know, my family goes above and beyond in making sure that I feel whole, making sure that I feel loved, making sure that I don't let the stressors of back home preclude me and my progress in life. So I would say that the experience has been amazing, you know? Like I said, there's been ups and downs, but during those downtimes it's real minor compared to what it could be, you know? It's very humbling when you really reflect on situations, and you're looking at--you know, you could be complaining about something that seems so big to you in the moment, but when you really pause and consider and think about where you came from, going back to my heritage, to think about if I didn't make the decision to go off to college, if I didn't make the decision to pursue that pharmacy degree, if I didn't make the decision to leave the nest of Florida and come to Chicago for a new challenge, my complaints would be waaaay worse and probably more [?]. So even in my haste to continue to grow into the person that God called me to be, you know, life is good through it all, you know? I praise Him, I worship Him, and I give Him honor, because clearly I feel like I'm walking down the righteous path that was predestined for me. So that's why things seem to be working easier and easier as time goes along, but I continue to fight through it all, that way if, you know, somebody could throw a curveball, you know, the enemy tries to come after me, I will persevere through whatever case is thrown [because] it's just in me to do so.Sheneisha: Speaking of, [for] you to do so, having that fight, being in corporate America now as a first-generation American, what challenges do you face? I mean, we all have that upside, but then there's times too where we have the not-so-up, right? So what challenges do you face, and then how do you overcome or navigate those challenges, being a first-generation American in corporate?Kennetth: Got you. So one of my biggest challenges at times in corporate America is corresponding through the phone. I have a very notably deep, black voice, [laughs] and for folks who aren't used to receiving that type of baritone voice on the other side of the line for certain requests and, you know, for certain actual--what's the word, given directives as well, it becomes a challenge. You know, I've been--what's the word? I've been a telemarketer at times. You know, folks be like, "Wrong number," hang up. I'm like, "Uh, it's Ken from the other building." "Oh, oh, oh! Sorry about that. I thought--hey, what's going on?" [laughs] You know? Yeah, so it's--and that's kind of living experience in itself because, you know, no matter how far you go, no matter what you look like on paper, if you're a black male or female in America, that's who you are, you know? And then, once again, that's the bucket of everything that falls under black, myself being Haitian-American. You know, folks don't even know about your culture, so that's a challenging conversation at times. But like I said, I force that challenging conversation so folks can be receptive to it. So when May 18th comes, Haitian Flag Day, Haitian Independence Day, you know, folks know why I'm wearing red, white, and blue, and it's not because of the American flag. It's because of the Haitian flag. But that's a minor challenge if anything, but, you know, at the beginning it was kind of a slap in the face because it's like, "Okay, when is this gonna stop? When are folks gonna realize that you don't have to have that voice?" That notably Caucasian voice. You don't have to put on your Caucasian voice. There's a movie that I reference a lot called "Sorry to Bother You," where the guy in the movie, he had to put on his what they call "the white voice" in order to appease customers, and ironically enough he was a telemarketer. [laughs] But, you know, I just feel like it's 2019, you know? There's no need to do that anymore. A lot of ignorance, ignorance being a state of unawareness, as it pertains to black culture and even Haitian-American culture is being debunked because of, you know, small efforts of mine, when you just talk about yourself, talk about your background. And I don't force my background on folks, and I don't force my history on folks. I use that as a conversational starter, and then I ask them about theirs, 'cause, you know, there's a lot of time we jump to judgment that, you know, the white person in front of me is just white. They could be from France, you know? And that gives us a commonality right there. They could be from Russia, you know? They could have some Asian descent, but, you know, watered down throughout the years and through the generations, and you'll never know until you have that conversation with them. So the same energy I give in trying to edify folks and educate folks, I try to learn more as well about different individuals. I don't put them in that same bucket that it seems like society likes to put, you know, all people of black descent.Sheneisha: That's real, that's real. Education and enlightening is very much needed. I'm gonna navigate to asking this last question to you, and hopefully you can shed some light on this and encourage and empower the other first-generation Americans, but what advice do you have to give them? For the first-generation Americans listening, young, the first in their families to do it--as you said with "the famous"--what was it? Kennetth: "The famous first."Sheneisha: "The famous first." What advice do you give to the famous firsts or first-generation Americans or immigrants who are listening right now?Kennetth: The advice I would give--the first advice I would give is connect, right? We're in 2019. There is no reason why you should feel like the first and the only in any way, shape or form. You know, LinkedIn, social media. I mean, I can't really plug Instagram and Facebook as much, as I would say LinkedIn is the best--from a professional perspective anyway. I would say connect yourself, you know? If you're working in pharma and you feel or you are the only black person within your organization, your company or whatever the case may be, or one of few, connect with others like you within your company and outside of your company, in different companies, because it's important, you know? It takes a village, right? I feel like as we grow through life sometimes we lose that "village" mindset and think "Oh, we made it," or "Oh, we can take it from here," but it's a neverending thing, you know? There's always gonna be somebody that is in need of help, and there's always gonna be somebody that's willing to help. So whichever, you know, arm you fall under, be that person. So if you need help, search for it. If you're willing to help, help those who need it from you. That would be my biggest advice. Words of encouragement? Just [keep up the good grind?], you know? [Keep fighting?] the noble fight, because being the first, it's not--there shouldn't be a moment of contentment, because the moment you feel content is the moment you start growing, and I'm a firm believer that like God put the seeds on this earth, he put us on this earth to grow, so we have to continue to fight, continue to grow and reach new heights, and if that moment ever comes where we stop growing up, that's where we start growing out and supplying the world with new seeds, and that's where that mentor spirit comes. So for every question that you edify, help, and just guide along the way, they'll pay it forward, and that'll be a cascade in the right direction. So those are my words of encouragement and advice.Sheneisha: Thank you so much, Ken. Thank you so much. Listen though, guys, this was Dr. Ken Joe and myself, Sheneisha White, giving you the advice that we have here for first-generation Americans in corporate. I hope that you found this to be enlightening and that you can take this and add to yourself, but Ken, thank you so much for your time. I know you're super-duper busy, and you're so Florida. [laughs] So thank you so much for just speaking to us today and just giving us some enlightenment on being a first-generation American in corporate. Thank you.Kennetth: No pressure, and thank you guys for the opportunity. Hopefully it encourages somebody else or opens somebody else's eyes and that positive energy just comes through.Sheneisha: And Ken, can we go ahead here--we're gonna put your LinkedIn information down below, but how can people reach out to you if they would like to know more about Manhood on the Go, being a first-generation American in corporate--shout-out some of your information here and your businesses so people can reach out to you.Kennetth: Well, you know, I grew up in a generation that used to listen to Mike Jones, and he did something bold. He just threw his number out there, because, you know, some people may call and hang up, and some people may call and actually use it. So [feel free?]. The best way to reach me is area code 561-503-[?]500. I may not pick up the first or second time. I may not pick up at all. [laughs] But I definitely want to be [?]. Like I said, I'm willing to help within the confines of my schedule. I do get busy, so if you don't hear back from me right away just know I'll return your call, I'll return your text, or just try again, you know? Don't stop until you get it.Sheneisha: How about your LinkedIn and Insta?Kennetth: My LinkedIn you can search Kennetth Joseph PharmD, and that's Kennetth with two Ts. So funny story behind that, there is two Ts in my first name. It's not a typo. And what was the other?Sheneisha: And your Instagram.Kennetth: Not really on it, but it's still out there. So K3nJo3y with 3s for the Es. So K3nJo3y. That's K3nJo3y with a 3 for the Es. Sheneisha: All right, K3nJo3y with the 3 for Es. Thank you very much. We're signing out.Kennetth: All right, no problem. Thank you.

On the thirtieth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield talks about how you can make the case for something we're pretty sure all of us want - a raise. Take the time out to really build your case before marching up to your boss and demanding more coins.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on, y'all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week let’s talk about how you can make the case for something I’m pretty sure all of us want - a raise.Have you ever been in a job and felt like you deserved a raise? Well, you can’t just ask for a raise because you feel like you deserve one, you have more bills, or you’re just in a financial bind. If it was that easy we’d all be making bank. In order to persuade your boss that they should give you more money, you have to make your case, and to do that, you have to keep track of the things you’re doing or have done in your role. If you’re sort of lost on where to start with that, check out Episode 96 for my 25th tip on this podcast, Living Corporate, called “Keeping a Career Journal.”Now let’s discuss a few ways you can make your case to get more coins.Has your job grown beyond the job description you signed up for but it hasn’t been defined as part of your duties? In the project management realm, we call that scope creep. It’s a very common factor in why many of us think we need a raise. We get into a role, we become really good at things outlined for our position, and then we begin to take on other things to help the team, help our boss, or help the overall business. While all that is great and definitely things you should seek to do, you should also be compensated accordingly. Now, I’m not talking about the random one-off tasks your boss asks you to do as those are probably going to be covered under the “other duties as assigned” portion of your job description. I’m talking about the consistent recurring tasks that you’ve taken on that are outside of the scope of your role. When using this route, make sure to clearly identify and showcase the differences between your original job description and what you are currently doing to your manager to make your case.Have you exceeded your sales goals every month? Have you driven your projects to completion early and under budget? Did you streamline processes that generated more revenue or other business results? These are great examples of adding value to your company, and they are also great points to make when requesting a raise. When companies consider giving you a raise, they want to know how you have directly contributed to their overarching organizational mission. Document these accomplishments and how they relate to the larger company goals to show your manager the value that you’ve added to the company.This last option is a bit risky, and I would only use it as a last resort. Test your value in the market, and what I mean by that is apply to other roles, interview, and try to get an offer. If you land an offer that is higher than your current salary, use that as leverage with your employer to negotiate. Depending on your delivery, this could leave a bad taste in your employer’s mouth or your employer could decide not to budge at all. This is why I call this option risky, but I’ve also worked for companies that wouldn’t even consider giving you a raise until showed them another offer proving your expertise was worth more elsewhere. Sidenote: If your company is like that, you might want to just accept the new offer.Making the ask for a raise can be difficult, especially if you don’t arm yourself with the reasons why you deserve the raise. Take the time out to really build your case before marching into your boss’ office demanding more coins.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach speaks with Jennifer Brown, founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, and they take a deep dive into exploring what diversity and inclusion means. They also talk about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and Jennifer shares a bit about her latest two books. Check out Jennifer's books! They're titled "Inclusion" and "How to Be an Inclusive Leader."Connect with Jennifer on the following platforms: Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInPut your name on the mailing list at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know what we do, man. [laughs] Y'all know. Listen, man, we try to drop--come on, Sound Man. Give me them air horns right here. [air horns sfx]. More fire for your head top, and look, today is no different. I ain't even gonna get into a huge, long kind of, like, intro before I get into the interview, 'cause our interview was kind of long, but I really want y'all to hear all of it. I interviewed someone who is a strong--seriously, like, one of the leaders within the D&I space when you talk about, like, presenting content around intersectionality, diversity, inclusion. Her name is Jennifer Brown. She's a facilitator. She's a public speaker. She's a consultant. She's an educator. She has a background in change management, so there's a lot of symbiosis between the both of us, and we had a really dope discussion just about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and then we had a conversation--like, kind of a meta discussion about the D&I space as an industry. If y'all remember--this was, like, way back in Season 1--we had Amy C. Waninger, and then we had Drew, A.K.A. Very White Guy, on the show, and Drew talked a little bit about the--, like, D&I as a business, right, and kind of, like, the capitalistic or corporate nature of D&I and, like, what that looks like, and we had a conversation about that too. It was really interesting. So anyway, what you're gonna hear next is the discussion between Jennifer Brown and myself. She's great people, definitely can't wait to have her back on the show. Make sure y'all check out the show notes. You can look and see all of her information, including her latest two books, okay? So make sure y'all check it out, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.[pause]Zach: Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Jennifer: Oh, thanks. I'm doing great. Trying to stay cool in this July.Zach: Man, it is hot out here.Jennifer: Yeah. Global warming. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] For real. Look, I gave a brief intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Jennifer: Of course, yeah. I--let's see. I'm an author. I'm a keynoter. I'm a CEO and an owner of a consulting business, all of which is focused on building more inclusive workplaces for all kinds of talent to thrive, and it's a passionate, personal mission that I have because I've been out since I was 22, and I'm in my 40s now, but the workplace was a place where I couldn't really bring my full self to work. And I want to say it wasn't just being LGBTQ. I mean, the workplace has all sorts of inclusiveness problems when it comes to people like, you know, us, and, you know, most people actually. Anyone that's not a certain mold, and so as somebody who has--I have a master's degree in opera, believe it or not. I came to New York to be an opera singer, and that did not work out.Zach: Wow.Jennifer: Yeah, I know. [laughs] It's crazy. Luckily I reinvented as a corporate trainer, because it's all this--it's like being on the stage, you know, and connecting with audiences. It's just the topic is different. So I reinvented into that field, which remains really my field to this day. So we're really--we're a strategy and training company, and we're working across the Fortune 1,000, I would say, on a daily basis. My team is all over the country. They're amazing. They're so talented at what they do. They have a lot more patience for client work than I do. [laughs] And yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but I've been a consultant in the trenches for a long time, and I'm actually really thrilled now to kind of be more living the keynote and author life. I just--I like it a lot. I love performing. I love big audiences. I like the challenge of thinking on my feet. I like having to write books on this topic and figure out, like, "What does the world need me to write next, and how do I take what I hear and learn and put it in a way that's digestible for people?" Because it's really--it's kind of, like, a life-or-death situation from an inclusion perspective, and I deeply feel that, for myself and many, many others.Zach: Wow. Well, thank you for that. Awesome. I'm already--like, my shoulders are kind of bouncing up and down. This is gonna be a dope conversation.Jennifer: Woo! Yeah. [both laugh]Zach: So today we're talking about inclusive leadership, and before we get too deep into it, can we get some definitions on these terms? Like, from your point of view. Diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. 'Cause in a lot--in your content and in your IP, both written and your presentations, like, you use these terms a lot, and frankly your content is centered around these terms. For our audience, I'd love it if we could just, like, level-set what these things actually mean.Jennifer: Yes, and you need to consider the history of the conversation. So in the corporate and workplace context, diversity is really--has been traditionally the "who," right? The demographics, the representation in your workforce. Typically it's [counted with?] gender, right? Which is where it started, and race and ethnicity. It wants to count LGBTQ and people with disabilities, but, you know, a lot of those folks can hide who they are, right? We are very good at hiding who we are and not checking boxes. So diversity has really been that representation, the mix, the complexion of the workplace [with a small C?]. And then inclusion really is the "how." So "How do I make that mix work?" You know? "If diversity is the "who" in the mix, how do I make the mix work?" To quote my friend Tyrone Studemeyer, who is, like, a great chief diversity officer. He always uses that example. In fact, he brings a glass of milk on stage and pours in chocolate sauce, and then he stirs it, and he has this bit that he does. So it's making the mix work, and honestly's that's really where behaviors come into play. And so it's how--once you have that talent around the table, how do you make them want to stay? How do you include them, and how do you make them feel that they're valued? And so inclusion is the how and the behaviors. And then intersectionality, something totally different. It is the mix, I guess, of diverse identities that make some of us who we are and kind of present unique challenges. Traditionally defined by Kimberle Crenshaw, of course, it's the mix of multiple stigmatized identities that one person may carry. So why that's important is that I think, you know, anyone who looks at gender issues, for example, as a white women's topic, is not taking into consideration how women of color are impacted differently, how being an LGBTQ woman may mean that you're not only dealing with your gender and all the headwinds that come along with that, but you're dealing with the headwinds relating to sexual orientation. Or say you have, you know, a non-binary gender expression, or you are a woman of color and some of those things at the same time, or a woman with a disability. So it just goes on and on, and that's a very helpful thing for the rest of the world, I think, to help people understand the levels of--and I would use privilege with a small P. I know that word sets some people off, you know, but I think we have to be realistic about some of us walking through the world feeling a lot safer and a lot more protected, a lot more supported. You know, right? Like, a lot more--that others are more comfortable with us because they're relatively more familiar with us, and the sort of further you get away from I guess the straight white male norm that is, like it or not, the whole of the top leadership in the business world. The further you get from that, I think the more difficulty you have in kind of seeing yourself in workplaces, in being supported, grown, invested in, welcomed, proactively fostered. You know, all of the things that really, like, pull you up in an organization. So, you know, when you're different in multiple ways, it's kind of difficult to ever feel that you're in that--in the place you should be in the machine that is the workplace. So, you know, this is where people fall out. They quit. They can't stand it anymore. [laughs] You know, they go and become entrepreneurs, which is great, you know, but sad for corporations and large employers because, of course, you know, you're bleeding out all of your diverse talent because your culture is sort of something that people can't stand. That's a problem. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] No, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting, right, because I was just having a conversation with a couple of close friends this morning, and I was talking about the fact that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about D&I in the most common contexts, it almost feels like some--like, really a competition between white men and [white women] for number one, and then kind of everybody else falls to the wayside. Right? Like, we don't necessarily have, like--I don't know if I'm necessarily always hearing, like, truly intersectional discussions around identity. I don't know, and I don't know if black women are often centered in those discussions. Of course in the past couple years we've seen, like, more and more content come out about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but at the same time--Jennifer: [laughs] But you're right.Zach: [laughs] I mean, here's a great example, right? So I think it was--yep, Indeed. So Indeed just dropped a commercial, and there was a--the setting was, like, a board room, right, and in the board room, a white man was in the front and he was getting a promotion, right? And, like, the boss was shaking his hand, and everybody was clapping, and then there was a white woman, and she was just kind of standing there, and it was clearly--like, by the framing, right, of the commercial, that she was passed over for this promotion and that the white man got the promotion over her, right? And I was like, "Okay." And so then she looks down at her phone, and she kind of smirks because she gets a notification she's getting an interview, you know, somewhere else, right?Jennifer: [laughs] Oh, my gosh.Zach: Right? So she's like, "I'm leaving," and then it said, "Indeed." You know? I was like, "Okay, cool." So great commercial, but what's interesting about that commercial was behind the white woman--and I don't believe they did this intentionally, but maybe they did--and if they did, yo, they are super cold--but there was a black woman and a black man out of focus right behind them. And so it was, like, super interesting.Jennifer: [sighs] Oh, goodness. Wow. Oh, somebody needs to give that feedback. I'm sure they've heard about it already. [both laugh]Zach: But, like, the idea that a lot of times we talk about D&I, right, it's often centered around gender. We're not having really authentic discussions outside of that. And so a question for you - you know, in your book "Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change," you discussed the nuances of privilege. And you just talked about lower-case privilege, lower-case P privilege. And to make an effort not to vilify white men who have, quote, "seemingly won the privilege lottery." Is it possible to manage the egos of leaders who are in the majority while also having frank and accountable discussions about empowering black and brown professionals or just non-white professionals in the workplace? You know, in your work, what does that process look like? To establish trust for those discussions.Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, that is really the work, and it's--I think it's, like, the third rail, honestly. It's funny - being in the LGBTQ community, there's a level of--strangely, a level of comfort and acceptance of talking about being "I'm a proud ally," you know, or putting that rainbow sticker on your desk or in your email signature. And it's fascinating to me because--by the way, the LGBTQ conversation is also not properly intersectional, right? So there's privileged dynamics playing out in my--this community. I was going to say "my" community. One of my communities, you know, that women's voices aren't well-heard. People of color and the LGBTQ community, trans people, are not well-heard and are not represented in leadership positions in the workplace when it comes to affinity groups and things. So each community has its kind of diversity within its diversity challenges. [laughs] So I just wanted to make that point, because--I often say, "Just because you carry a marginalized identity, or even two, does not make you an inclusive leader."Zach: That's so true.Jennifer: Like, I wish it were true, but it's not, and it's been proven to me over and over again that, you know, I've made that assumption, and I've kind of been wrong. Like, I've been shocked by what people say. So, like, these--like, a lack of that intersectional lens and that inclusive lens can live in all of us, by the way. Elitism and, you know, that blindness and bias. Unchecked. Anyway, that's one point I wanted to make. So how do we center more black and brown voices when the leadership of so many companies--and when you say they are the majority, we always have to clarify. I say majority in leadership positions, because if you look at the aggregate in most companies, of course, women are the majority. Zach: That's absolutely correct, yeah.Jennifer: Right, and then a lot of ethnic diversity lives in different functional areas of the business and, you know, whatever, right? But it just totally thins out, like, when you go up the org chart, right? So the problem is all the power lies with a sort of very homogeneous group, and so the onus is on that group to acknowledge that the world is more and more black and brown, right? That they have to build that confidence and cross those bridges of understanding, and they have to know how to build trust with their workforce. Both current and future, by the way, which is most likely not going to look like them. And then they've got to do it in such a way that they--that then their employee and their leadership base looks like the world that they serve, which is increasingly female, right? Think about the buying decisions. Think about the exploding buying power of the black community. The LGBTQ community is now a trillion-dollar buying power. I mean, it's massive. So any brand that's worth anything, and any leader that's worth anything, must look at this, should look at this, and say, you know, "My demographic group--maybe it was okay for me not to understand what keeps people in the organization I'm a part of or keeps people on my team or how to be a good colleague and sort of step out of my shoes and think about what the other person's experience is like, but I better search and pay attention to this." So my argument is always I throw the business case to people, the demographic argument to people. Sometimes it's a moral argument. Sometimes somebody, you know, has kids of a different race than they are. Sometimes they have lots of daughters. Like, sometimes, you know, they have a unique view on all of this, and so when you, you know, [see?] somebody that looks like a white, straight guy, you know, you just never know what their diversity story might be, and I've been just shocked and reminded that, you know, I can--I can walk in a room and people assume I know nothing about this topic, you know? And that's happened to me. I've been on the receiving end of that. And there are things I don't know, for sure, but I desperately want people to listen to me and somehow kind of wedge my way in and make them listen and convince them and all of those things. So being LGBTQ helps with that. So I'm this interesting hybrid of, you know, being of an identity that people are more comfortable with, like, based on maybe what they see, but then coming out and challenging them to the point where, like, you can hear a pin drop when I do that, and that's kind of--let me tell you, it's pretty uncomfortable when you're standing there in front of, like, 1,000 mostly men in, like, light blue shirts and khakis. You're like, "How is this gonna go?" [laughs] So it takes--for all of us, you know, I think it takes bravery to show ourselves. For some of us with invisible aspects of diversity, it takes kind of a unique kind of bravery to be like, "No." Like, "Make no mistake, this is actually who I am." And particularly if it's a vulnerable aspect of who you are. It can feel really risky. That could include, like, divulging about a disability or, you know, mental health and addiction issues, or age, you know? There's just this, like, widespread hesitation to bring our full selves to work on so many counts, but when you are black and brown of course the issue can be "I can't opt not to show who I am." Like, "Who I am is often visible," and it will trigger the biases if those are there, right? And so it's a conversation we always have about--it's not the pain Olympics, and that's so important to remember. Like, that it's not--it's not a race to the--through the oppression hierarchy to say--Zach: Right.Jennifer: Right? Because that's a useless conversation. I think we have to think about, like, what are the--what's the damage that happens when, you know, we feel shame, or we feel compelled to downplay who we are, even if it's very visible to others? And how can we support each other's voices and create that safety for each other? And that's what I think about every day. Like, if I have been given some kind of privilege with a small P [in] several ways that has been totally unearned by me--my obsession is, like, what responsibility and opportunity does that come with? Which is interesting, because I'm in the LGBTQ community, which is so used to needing that allyship, right? We think about--we struggle to bring our full selves and be comfortable, and we hide, you know? And so allies really bring us out, you know? They stand alongside us and say, "Hey, I'll tell your story. I'll be next to you. I'll have your back." It feels amazing to have that, and I know what that feeling feels like, and so I am turning around and, like, trying to do that for others with my people, which often is my lovely, often good-hearted, you know, white, straight male executive clients, you know, to say, "How can we help you bridge to the future?" Because opting out is not--that's not an option, you know? I think--and the more clued-in ones know this, and I think people are mostly feeling just, like, really--like, wanting to do more, very awkward, very afraid. I know in the light of MeToo, just purely a gender conversation, the--you know, that lean-in research that came out a couple months ago that says that, like, male leaders are, like, even more afraid now to be in these one-on-one scenarios with female mentees or colleagues, and it's really discouraging, and it's definitely going in the wrong direction, but I think that fear is probably bigger than just cross-gender. I think that it's just kind of any moves you might make to say, "Hey, I want to be an inclusive leader. I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say the right thing. I really, really want to be better, but how am I gonna learn this thing that I'm gonna get wrong, and where am I gonna learn it? And how am I gonna know that I'm getting it wrong? And then how am I going to be given a chance to develop better skills?" And that's a very legitimate question. So I think we've got to all kind of give each other a lot of berth and also proactive support these days to learn, and we've got to do that in partnership with each other, because otherwise we're learning in a vacuum, and that's hard to do.Zach: It's so complex though, right? Because it's like--like, there has to be space for grace, and then there also has to--like, on both sides, because there's grace for you to learn--there's grace for me to give you space to learn, but then there's also--there has to be humility for you to receive that learning, right? And then there needs to be empathy on the person who is learning for their teacher in that there is a level of emotional labor, right, that goes into me even talking to you about this at all, right? I had a conversation with some colleagues, like, about a month or so ago, and I was like, "Look." Like, something happened, and, you know, it was an educational discussion, and in part of my conversation I said, "Hey, you know, I don't talk about this because it's exhausting." I said, "But being in these majority-white spaces--just me being here is exhausting," and I explained that to them, and I said, "It's not just me. It's exhausting in some way or form or shape for someone in a minority to engage in majority spaces." Like, it is, and so, like, for the people that are doing the work to educate and train and teach or even partner--like, that's--like, there needs to be some empathy on that part, you know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah. Well, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue, and I think that--and then us being asked to step forward and represent an entire community and their experience, which you and I know is never gonna be accurate. You're just one person talking about your experience. Zach: Right. Not [?], right.Jennifer: Right, but what you're talking about is something--what I say in my next book, right, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader," is that you need to do 80% of the emotional labor yourself before you ask someone to help you on your journey. Zach: Oh, I love that.Jennifer: It's so important, yes. And so for me, what that looks like is I intentionally consume certain media, for example. I listen to certain podcasts. I watch certain films. I acquaint myself with cultural norms across communities that are not mine, right? And in some cases it's a struggle through some of that media, because that media is not built for you. It's not a conversation for you, right? [both laugh] And I've had white friends, and I talk about, like, a podcast we may love. Like, one I love called "Still Processing." I don't know if you know it.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. "Still Processing" is fire. Shout-out to y'all, yes.Jennifer: Oh, it's so good. So good. And they're queer too. Like, I just love them. I mean, talk about intersectional. They're brilliant. And anyway, I sometimes have a hard time keeping up with it, but also getting all of the cultural references--and sometimes even I will feel, "Gosh, I'm such an outsider, and this is so uncomfortable for me, to try to hang in with the conversation." And then I say to myself--and this is what I say to leaders--"Notice the discomfort, because this is what other people feel every single day in majority-white spaces." Every day of their lives, right? Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, you're uncomfortable for one second, right? Like, get used to it. Like, you should be putting yourself in this discomfort all of the time, because this is the competency. Like, this is the skill that you need to learn so that you get some iota of empathy for what it feels like every single day for other people. The other thing I wanted to say is we just had an LGBTQ--we called it LBTQ. It was just for women actually, so we dropped the G. [laughs] Which was--you know, people can have issues with it, but we dropped the G. It was just meant for Q-identified women. And we had this big conference, and we asked--we had a TON of diversity on the stage, which was my commitment, and we had a couple activists that were trans women of color, and they said, "I will come, but I want you to know, like, Pride is exhausting for me." It was in June. "It's exhausting for me. It's exhausting for me to walk into corporate spaces, to educate, to be that voice on stage, and I'm sort of doing this, but I want you to know it's, like, a lot of labor for me," and I want I guess for all of us that put panels together, for all of us that are speakers and on panels--it was such a learning for me to understand that when you ask someone, you're trying to be inclusive, but it is so seen through this lens of "Oh, I can take the day and go speak at this conference 'cause I work for myself," or, you know, "I'm an activist or an advocate." Like, an activist doesn't always look the same or have the same level of privilege or income. What is the lost income from taking a day out to go into a space you're not comfortable in and educate people about your experience? Like, it was really humbling. And what we ended up doing, by the way--and this may be helpful advice--is for all the speakers, that day we had 30 speakers, we really want to intend that we take up--we have a stipend and honorarium for people who take the time out to come into that space. There's a question of real money, you know, to offset that time and that labor. And again, this was another kind of learning for a lot of privileged people of the privilege that allows them to come in and speak all of the time on things that have a full-time job, you know, that have benefits, you know, that aren't witnessing, you know, the really, really painful reality of certain parts of our community every day. I just thought it was a really interesting demonstration within a marginalized community of sort of the gulf in our experiences, right, even within LBTQ women. So I think being mindful of intersectionality all of the time, it's incumbent--it's incumbent on anybody who has that platform, that voice, that comfort to whatever degree, to ensure spaces are diverse, to ensure voices are elevated, to center stories that aren't our own, and to make sure that those stories are given the proper platform and that people aren't overly requested to give up their time and education. But that means that each white person, each man, you know, when they support gender equality, I would ask, like, "What are you reading? What research do you have under your belt?" Like, "How are you exercising your muscle to show up in allyship, and what are you doing?" And then, and only then, can you ask for tweaks and feedback from people in affected communities. You know, "Did what I say resonate?" "Did the story--did I do this justice?" "Did I use my voice in the right way?" "What more could I have done?" Like, "What feedback would you have for me?" That can be asked, but so much has to be done and earned before that. And then--you know, and then bring somebody in to give you that feedback and make you better, because, you know, without that feedback I can promise you people aren't gonna get better, and they're just gonna keep stumbling, and stumbling is not good for anyone. [laughs] It's humiliating.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. [laughs] The thing about it is there's nothing--so I think the only thing worse than being loud and wrong is being really polished and wrong, right?Jennifer: Ooh, that's interesting.Zach: Right? It's like, you know, you're talking, you got the presentation, and, you know, you got your little clicker, and you got your three points and your--[both laugh] And your pantsuit looks great, but you are wrong.Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. It's in the corporate speak.Zach: Right, it's in the corporate speak, but--Jennifer: People can see through it.Zach: But you're absolutely wrong. And your earlier point about Pride, yeah, and, like, this past year was so big because it was the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and it's interesting 'cause you talked about--you were talking just a bit about, like, the dissonance there and, like, the emotional labor for everyone who is a minority, but then specifically we're talking about trans activists, and it was so interesting because--I believe it was on the 30th. Like, right at the end of Pride there was a situation at Stonewall Inn where, you know, there was a desire from a trans women to speak up. She wanted to talk a little bit about the day and just reflect, and she was shouted down.Jennifer: No.Zach: Yeah, by gay men who were there in names of, "Hey, we just want to party. We don't want to hear all of that," and then eventually she was able to speak, and she spoke for about 12 minutes, but it was just really interesting. She read the names of the black trans women who died and facts and the disproportionate abuse and oppression that black trans women have and continue to face, and so you're absolutely right. Like, and I think it's incredible. I have yet to have the privilege to directly interview a black trans activist. Like, that's actually a serious [goal] of mine.Jennifer: I can hook you up.Zach: Well, let's do it. Let's talk about that after the interview. For sure.Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it's been such a learning for me. And this is why I feel so--the ally energy in me these days, even in the LGBTQ community technically that I'm in, I feel so activated as an--and I don't even want to say, like, "I am an ally," because we're only allies when others give us that--give us that name and that honor, right? But I'll tell you, whether it's me as a cis woman--you know, I spend my time on the keynote stage asking people in the audience, "How many of you know what I mean by sharing our pronouns and why it's important? And how many of you know what cisgender means?" And sharing my identity and coming out as cisgender so that--and sharing my pronouns so that I'm not acting like heterosexuality and cisgenderness is normal, you know? We have to make it visible in order to even point out to people that this--we shouldn't be assuming this is normal, and you shouldn't be walking around every day assuming everybody shares your identity. Like, and we've that. I mean, so many of us have been so comfortable and--you know, I'll share it. You know this statistic probably, but it's so startling that 1 out of every 5 people under 34 is non-cis and non-straight. So 1 out of 5. So as you walk around your life, as you hire people, as you work with teams, as you meet customers, 1 out of 5, and yet the chances are that they're hiding that from you and they're not comfortable for you. So what can you do to say, "Hey, this is a safe place. I am someone that you can bring your whole self to me, around me, and I will see you, and I will be not only just open to it, but I will be embracing of it, and I won't assume that you're like me." You know, "I will give you the chance to self-identify," and I will self-identify. I will be brave in doing that, because, like, I'm not gonna put all the burden on you to talk about your experience, but I'm not gonna remain silent and not talk about mine." It's funny, because I get a lot of questions afterwards. People come up to me and say, "How do I start that conversation with someone?" To say, "Hey, I'm doing my work. I'm trying to learn. I want you to feel comfortable. What would you like me to know?" And we sort of walk through, like, "How do I even start that conversation?" Because people are really--they just don't know how to begin, and they don't know whether it will come across as authentic, and they're worried they're gonna be out of their depth really fast. [laughs] Which, by the way, they will be. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] You're absolutely right, but I think it's the internal getting yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable and being comfortable with being ignorant, and ignorant truly meaning just not knowing, and seeking to learn, right? Like, MLK Jr. talked about this. Like, he was quoted saying something like, "White people, as part of their superiority, think that they have so very little to learn when it comes to--" Like, just race, matters of race, and I think that can be extended and expanded, right? That if you're a part of a majority, a part of a privileged class, it's easy for you to think that you just--you don't need to learn, but being curious, right, and seeking to understand is, like, one of the greatest signs of humility, and really it's endearing. Like, the right people, in my experience--when I come to people and I say, "Hey, I really just want to understand. I want to learn from you. I genuinely want to learn." Those discussions go well, because they--Jennifer: They do.Zach: Right? They go well, because you're humbling yourself to listen and to receive. You talked about the statistics, about 1 in 5 today, [and] I think that really leads me well into the next question. So a good deal of your book discusses the future of work and the role inclusion will play. What are your predictions on how organizations will need to adapt to attract future diverse talent in the next 10 years?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, they're all, like, woefully behind already and have been. [laughs] It's like the ostrich with its head in the sand. I think, you know, when business is good and the economy is good, it covers--it's like high tide, you know? It covers up a lot of things that low tide reveals. And I think a lot of people are too comfortable. You know, I just think that business leaders in particular--and to your point that you just made, right? If life is working out for me, like economically I'm comfortable, I'm not afraid of, you know, being pulled over, you know, as I'm driving. I'm not afraid for my child in the world. You know, all of those things that are blind spots for some people. You can kind of sail on through life and through your work in being a leader, believe it or not, and not really be held accountable for a lot of these things. People deny that it's an urgent situation, but I see it as a really urgent situation, that the fact that, you know, the number of women and people of color at certain levels in companies--which I'm kind of obsessed with the mid-level, because the mid-level is where people--they're really tired of hanging on, like, white-knuckling it up the pipeline, trying to, you know, get supported, get promoted, get--you know, have somebody take an interest in them, have somebody run interference for them. You know, when you're undermentored and undersupported, and then you're underrepresented as well, and you look around, and you look up, and you don't see anyone that--you know, we say "you've got to see it to be it." You know, you get tired, and it's no wonder to me that the numbers and the representation of anyone who's not a straight white male have been kind of really flatlined, you know? And even the best and most progressive companies are really struggling to hold onto people, to raise them up to the level where I want to see them, right? Which is the executive level, because then they can make all--a whole world of difference, you know? An executive leader can, with one signature, you know, create a policy or address the pay gap, you know? They have so much power. Or hold a customer accountable, or take a stance on a political issue in social media. And so if people can't make up there, and we decide to bail out because it just proves too arduous and we're just, like, physically tired, and we're emotionally tired, and the compassion and fatigue and the emotional labor and all of it, being the spokesperson for an entire community. It becomes too much, and, you know, then we leave and we create our own businesses, which is a great solution, which was, you know, the thing I did. [both laugh] You know, 'cause I was like, "This is not gonna work for me." But that's a loss, because not everybody is set up to be an entrepreneur. You know, you need a lot of capital. You need--we talked about privilege. You know, you need certain things in place in order to make that work, and it's just not tenable for most people. So workplaces have to work for people, for all of us. So the future of work, you know, I get asked a lot about quotas and targets. I personally--I hesitate to say this, like, super publicly because companies are really twitchy about requirements and quotas, and you get a lot of pushback, but I'm honestly--I'm at a point where I feel like if people are left to their own devices change doesn't happen, and if change does happen it's slow and it's not widespread, and it's too slow to make a meaningful difference in the short amount of time we have to really see change.Zach: Absolutely.Jennifer: I mean, I think the house is on fire. [laughs] You know, I think economically people are falling behind. They're not getting promoted. They're therefore missing out on economic growth and opportunity and wealth, and, you know, I'm just not seeing it, when the world is changing so fast and companies are not keeping up with it. And so is the bottom line impacted? Is ROI measured? You know, we really--we have to have, like, an honest conversation about losing customers and clients and people leaving the organization, and companies have to wake up and say, you know, "If we don't do something really serious about this, we're gonna be sitting in the same exact place in 10 years." So, you know, I'm all for the more radical solutions. You know, I think--honestly, I think slates, interview slates, need to have a required number of women on them and a required number of people with diverse ethnicities. LGBTQ is tough because we don't disclose. So the companies I work with struggle with something called self-identification. We don't trust our companies--and this just speaks volumes--we don't trust our companies enough to check a box about who we really are, so we can't be counted. [laughs] So we--so, you know, there has to be, like, faith that we exist in organizations upwards of maybe 10% of the population, because we're only--on paper, we're only recorded at, like, 1%.Zach: Yeah, and that's just not accurate, right?Jennifer: No, it's not accurate, but we're doing that because we're terrified, you know? We're terrified of losing our job. We're just--even in the best companies. And that's true for people with disabilities too, but I think [some] companies have to [?], and I think they're gonna get pushed back. If they roll things out like this, they're gonna get a lot of pushback. People are gonna say, "I don't want to be forced to--" You know, "I believe in a meritocracy, and I want to hire the best person for the job, and you can't force me to hire a candidate that's less than," and my answer to that is if you did a good job of having enough of a pipeline of all kinds of talent, it wouldn't just be one candidate you're looking at and you're feeling like somebody, you know, is forcing you, holding your feet to the fire to hire them. You would have lots of choices. And so we've got to do a better job of filling that pipeline, keeping people in the pipeline, not letting them leave, and investing in them so that they feel they can thrive at a company long-term instead of wanting to bail out because they can't stand it out anymore, you know? That's just a sad commentary on workplace culture, but unfortunately I think it's the experience of tons of people that I talk to.Zach: The thing about it is the challenge with it is like--your earlier point around change, like, not--you know, that if left to its own devices will happen so incrementally, so small, that it won't be--it won't have--Jennifer: So slowly. It won't be meaningful. It won't even be big enough, yeah.Zach: And I think when you look at American history and you look at the history of civil rights in this country, it's really--I don't know if we have, like, a tangible example of truly radical sustained change from a culture perspective in this country. I think when you look across--especially when you look at, like, this current presidency, it's actually forced a lot of people to really, like, look at the history of race relations in America, especially if you want to examine, like, the past 55, 60 years, and you look at--and if you look at, like, the economic positioning of blacks today versus blacks in 1967, you know, you don't see the needle moving much at all. In fact, in a lot of areas you see the needle moving down. So it's interesting, so I 100% agree with you that there needs to be some genuinely radical--I'm gonna use the word again, radical--change in thought in terms of just what it's gonna look like, because--and we talked about this in another interview too. We talked about the future of work and we talked about the future of learning and education. You know, as the economy shifts and changes and more and more folks are not going to school, because school is going to continue to get more expensive and--like, all of that, it's gonna create a completely new environment that I don't know if we're really taking the time to really examine and consider. Jennifer: I know. We're still having the conversation with managers to say, "Hey, don't hire from the school you went to. That's bias." Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: You know, literally that's where we are. But you're talking about, like, the 3.0, which is literally that people are not gonna have these traditional college degrees or any degree. They'll go to trade school or whatever it is. Like, they're gonna have completely non-traditional backgrounds. They will have been, you know, previously incarcerated. They will be, you know, of different statuses, and we have to figure out--like, workplaces need all the talent they can get, and yet they're completely behind in terms of how they seek that talent, where they look. People, like, throw their hands up so too easily, you know? They just say, "Oh, we just couldn't find anyone." [laughs] You know, it's just, like, endless, the stories I hear. And I don't know. It's laziness. It's--I don't even know. I mean, it depends on the day, like, how cynical I am about it all, but I don't know. [laughs] I just am like, "Really?" Like, if you really wanted to find people, they're there, and I--believe me, 'cause I'm on Twitter, and, like, Black Twitter is on fire. Like, you know, the number of angel investment groups, the number of VCs, the number of start-ups, the number of black girls who code. Like, there's such a great community to recruit from, and I just--I wonder, like, what is it--what is it that people aren't doing or won't do? Like, what is the hold up?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. You know what, Jennifer? I'ma say this. Hold on. You know what? You're a real one. I appreciate you. That's a really good call-out, 'cause you're absolutely right. Like, Black Twitter is poppin,', and, like, there's so much--there are so many pools, right, of talent for you to engage in. There's Black Code Collective, like, in D.C. Like, there's all types of stuff. Like, there are people--and, like, to your point around, like, how people are learning today, there are people who went to culinary school and then, like, are now learning how to code, and, like, they're good at it, right? There are communities now that will welcome you in for free. You will--you can learn, and you can genuinely understand and learn how to code. And so there's plenty of opportunity to deepen your pipeline, so yeah, that's a really good point. There are things that people either aren't doing or are choosing not to do, but the talent is definitely out there. You know, you talked about cynicism. I think that really leads to my next question. Like, can we take a step back and just talk about, like, D&I, or I&D, as an industry, right? Jennifer: Oh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Jennifer: Speaking of cynicism, I think I know where you're going with this. I'm ready to go there with you too, so I think I know. [both laugh]Zach: So there's a growing sentiment, right, that the largest voices who are advocating for diversity and inclusion in highly-visible or corporate/corporatized spaces are themselves members of the majority and, by relation, have some inherent blind spots within the subject matter that they espouse expertise in. Do you find any merit to that concern? And, like, what have you done to challenge your own blind spots? You spoke to this a little bit earlier, but I'd love for you to expound on that and if you have any other advice you would give to others.Jennifer: Hm, that is such an interesting observation. It's funny, because I could make the counter-argument that I think we're in a time--like, you ask any white diversity leader right now, and their credibility is questioned on a daily basis to be in the role they're in. Like, that is the truth. In fact, they get, like, threats.Zach: Really?Jennifer: Yeah. I've seen some people get some serious heat just for having the audacity of even having the position or accepting the position.Zach: Oh, wow.Jennifer: Yeah. So there's many stories, right, on all sides of this issue, and like I said, I think--I don't know if I said it earlier, but when you're a marginalized community, it also doesn't mean that you're a great leader on inclusion necessarily. Zach: That's true, yeah.Jennifer: Because I've seen plenty of--you know, like, we were talking about white gay men at Stonewall who were--you know, can be, like, very misogynistic, very racist, very--and so, you know, that can carry forward into a diversity leader role, but that doesn't mean that all of them are totally, you know, not effective practitioners, and it also doesn't mean because you're a person of color that you're an effective practitioner, right?Zach: That's right.Jennifer: So to me--and you respect this--it's a skill set, you know? It is a skill set, but it is also your identity, right? And it's how you deal with your identity in the world, and it's how you integrate those two things that makes you an effective voice. But also you've got to be an incredibly savvy change agent to have these roles. I mean, they're very difficult roles. They're some of the most complex roles that exist, I think, in business, because it's part influencing, it's part executive, you know, believability, credibility. It's passion. It's change agility. It is storytelling, right, and being, like--but incredibly data-oriented and, you know, convincing, and knowing the business so that you can make the business case, right? So you need to know the business you're in in order to make the argument for D&I, and you've got to be able to do all of those things. And by the way, you're probably part of a marginalized community, and you're dealing with all of the biases personally, like, that you're getting, at the same time as you're leading an entire institution, like, through this morass, you know? Through these really difficult, tense, and, you know, complex times. So it's really, like, one of the toughest roles, and I have so much respect--I worry about our practicioner community, both on the consulting side but really our internal--my internal clients, 'cause they're just--they're holding up, you know, this planet, you know, these giant organizations. Anyway, but to answer your question [of] "Who's allowed and who has permission to do this work?" It's a very good question. I mean, I've even questioned--you know, 'cause somebody hasn't dug into who I am and has judged me just based on what I look like, and that's okay. I mean, I would say, you know, it hurts me, but whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. It's most important, I think, for us not to judge each other, I think for us to look at the skill set objectively, but I do think the optics of people in these roles are important. You have to be, like, a really amazing, humble leader. Like, you have to be--you have to be really deep in the work, I think, to take on that role as a majority identity. If you're a--say you're a white guy. I don't know a lot of white straight guys in these roles. I do know white gay guys, and they--every day their privilege is pointed out to them. Every day. Nobody lets them forget, you know, that they are--that they have an enormous responsibility in that role and that, like, they have a lot of work to do. And if you talk to any of them--and I know some of my clients are of that identity, and it's a tough lift for them. I know some straight white women, and again, they are pretty enlightened people, and they're very humble, and they're very, like--they've been studying this for a long time. Some of them have sort of really personal relationships. I know a lot of gay white women actually in these roles, and they--and sometimes I know gay women of color in these roles, and they're amazing. I mean, amazing amazing. Like, and the intersectionality they can bring to it is deep, and I find--not to say, you know, certain combinations of identities are, like, more important, but to be able to speak to so many different identities in your workforce in a direct way, you know, there's kind of--that's a wonderful shortcut, to be able to do that and on top of that be, like, somebody who's, like, been in HR for 20 years, you know, and is super savvy about playing the politics and all of the other things you need for the role, but I would like to think that we can all--we all have a role to play, and some companies are more embracing of--I will tell you some inside baseball. Sometimes I get asked to send, you know, a white man to a consulting engagement, and--that is true, you know, and talk to anyone in the work that I do, and they'll tell you that's [?]. And we will push back. We will say, you know, "We're not sure that's the right answer," and "Let's talk about it," and, you know, sometimes strangely it is the right answer for certain groups who have been really, really recalcitrant and resistant, and the messenger matters sometimes more than the message. Like, certain people can be heard in certain ways, and we know this is true. So we--that's why we have such tremendous diversity on our consulting team, because we just--we have to get creative sometimes and make sure that we build a pairing, for example, that's gonna be in front of a room that maybe the client is really, really struggling to be heard in front of this business unit or this team or this, you know, office in a certain region in the country, and we'll need to switch it out. You know, we'll need to put a different voice in front of people to see, you know, and sadly the messenger is something that needs to be considered. And I wouldn't let it rest, and I wouldn't not challenge it, but I do think we--we've got to use every change tool in our arsenal, particularly with those who are really resistant and really stuck and I think experiencing a lot of bias per the messenger that they're hearing the message from. And it's funny. You know, I have to be really careful. I can't be the angry--I have to be careful to not be the angry woman and the angry gay person, and I can't imagine what it would be like delivering that truthful message that I do and also being a person of color, right? I'm very aware that I have a lot more latitude for my quote-unquote passion to come through, right, and to be--and not to have it seen as being threatening, you know? Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, your point around, like, changing up the messenger and mixing it up, it's really interesting because in the work that I have done, I have a similar strategy--and it's interesting, because I do that without even being asked. Like, I'll just be like, "Look, I know that for this I just need to have a really approachable white face to deliver this message," and they're partners for me in that. And honestly, Jennifer, I do that even just at work. Like, if I have a big meeting--Jennifer: Of course. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] If I have a big meeting or, like, you know, there's just something going on and it's like, "Okay, I really want to share this thing, but I know that if I say it, then it's gonna get an eye roll or it's not gonna be heard, so let me go ahead and mobilize this white woman or this white guy."Jennifer: Your allies.Zach: Yes, and then I'll have them say it, or I will let them know that I'm about to say it. Jennifer: I wish that weren't true.Zach: Say that again?Jennifer: I just wish it weren't true, like, that you have to do that, and to me that's, like, the extra tax that we pay. You know, that's extra labor. You have to literally not only have the brilliant idea, but you have to, like, strategize about who is, like, sitting next to you or, you know, backing you up when you have a brilliant idea, or who's gonna echo your--you know, women deal with this, and we all know this is, like, a fact of life. But I appreciate what you're bringing up, that it's a universal experience for so many of us, and it's just--if we look at it on the bright side--let's, like, look at it as a glass half-full, which I always do. [laughs] You know, I think this all makes us really savvy, like, very emotionally intelligent, right? Because as limited as our audience might be in terms of seeing us, doesn't this make us--it sort of sharpens our saw. I mean, I think when you have to think about "How am I gonna get this group over the finish line?" Like, how am I going to get them to listen to me, to believe in what I say and to give me the credibility when I'm walking in the room and I know what they're thinking about me?" You know, "How am I gonna do that?" And to me it's, like, a--you know, it's a brain twister, but it makes you be very creative. And by the way, I hope in enlisting those allies that they know why they're being enlisted and that it really raises their awareness [of] the permutations that so many of us go through in the workplace to be heard. You know, that's--I hope that they're noticing that. Like, that's a really important learning, to be approached by someone--to say, "Hey, would you have my [back?] in this meeting? I'm gonna bring this up," and, you know, to me that is, like, such a sad commentary, and at the same time it's such a demonstration of how far we have to go for people to be heard and the space that we have to learn to hold for each other. Like, we've got to do that--you know what? We need to do that without being asked. That's where I really want to get, right? So that if I'm in this meeting and I hear you bring up this brilliant idea, you don't even need to ask me to have your back. Like, I am gonna instinctively know if you're talked over or if somebody steals your idea or somebody poo-poos it that I'm gonna intervene, and I'm gonna know what's going on, and that to me, that would be sort of nirvana in the workplace, that those pre-conversations, that pre-planning that you just described doesn't even need to happen because everyone knows it's an issue and everyone's on guard for it. Like, can you imagine? Like, if we were all like, "Oh, no, no." You know, "She is not gonna be talked over," or "His idea is not going to be dismissed," you know? "And I'm gonna quote it, and I'm gonna bring the attention back to him and, you know, his idea." It's like the women in the Obama cabinet. I love that story, where they literally decided, like, that this was not gonna happen anymore, and they all banded together and made the plan.Zach: Yes, I loved that.Jennifer: And then they went into--I know. And then they went into the meeting, and they all, like, echoed each other's ideas and mentioned each other by name and made eye contact with other women in the room. So they sort of redirected everybody's attention. I'm still--believe it or not, if I go into a meeting with my male colleague, they will talk to him. Like, it still happens to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm a CEO, and he works for me, you know? [both laugh] So yeah, it's still a thing. And he's really good, because he'll, like, redirect back to me. Zach: "Um, actually, Ms. Brown, what do you think?" [laughs]Jennifer: Yes. Well, he'll say, "Well, as Jennifer always says," right? "As somebody who is an acknowledged expert." I love that. [laughs] But yeah, we need to do that [?], and that would be nirvana. So I really talk about that a lot in my book. Like, the emotional labor of having to ask for help, I really, really wish more of us would know that help is needed. Like, we would know the data. We would know the research. You know, for God's sake, like, read the McKenzie report on women that they do every year. Zach: Oh, it's so good.Jennifer: Yeah, it's so good, and you'll realize that women of color have different headwinds than white women. Just that, you know? And if you go into meetings and you see this dynamic and you have any level of privilege, any level of positional power where you're listened to in a different way, you need to activate that so that you change those numbers and those outcomes. Like, you must do that. And it's such a small thing. This takes two seconds. Like, that's the thing when people are like, "Ugh, inclusion takes so much time, and I'm so busy, and I don't know how--it competes with the business priorities, and I have a long list, and, like, I'm already strapped for time." All of that--I don't think this takes a lot of time. It just takes a moment of attention to [bias?] your own others, a quick conversation to check in with somebody, a request for feedback, a "Hey, you know, I wanted to follow up with you after that meeting." Like, "I really thought your idea was great. I want to support you. How can do I do more of that?" That, like, takes two seconds to say, and like you said earlier, it's so welcome. Like, I think that's the--people are like, "I don't know how to start that conversation." [laughs] It's like, "Most of these conversations are, like, a gift to so many people who are never asked these questions to begin with," right? So please approach me. Ask me how can you support me more differently. What could you say in a meeting? What could you say after a meeting to someone when I'm not around? You know, I think that's the other piece, right? Like, give feedback to people that look like you. Like, I always say, you know, "Men listen to other men in a very different way." And so, you know, if you've got the privilege of being listened to. You know, the messenger, not just the message, and you can take the burden off of my shoulders to have a hard conversation with somebody, to say, "Hey, that joke made me uncomfortable." Like, that's a very risky move for me to do, 'cause I--you know, that is drawing attention to my difference. I have no idea how that person is going to react. And so I really--as a woman, I really appreciate men who proactively are like, "What can I do to--" Really it's kind of protect you in a way, and it's not protect in a sort of damsel-in-distress kind of way. It is literally--like, it could be protecting an idea. It could be making sure you don't fall victim to politics in the office. It could be that I represent you when you're not in the room and I talk about how brilliant you are, you know? It's that kind of thing, because otherwise we're sort of hanging out in the wind. And one of the things I always say is diverse talent is undermentored and very undersponsored, which means that we're not--we literally aren't looked after, like, informally. We are not--like, somebody's not like, "Well, let me have that career conversation with her to make sure that she's up for that role, so that she has P&L experience, so that she's then positioned so she can get that promotion," because there's all of these, like, unspoken and unwritten rules that we're not privy to when you're not in the power structure. So I often task people I speak to, like, "Look at the people you mentor. Look at the people you sponsor. Do they look like you?" You know, if they do, and you are a certain demographic, like, you must remedy that. Like, you've got to be mentoring across difference, sponsoring across difference, and--by the way, it should be reverse mentoring as well. It should be mutual so that you're learning--to your point earlier, like, how are you getting your learning about cultural differences? It's in the context of these really, really important one-on-one relationships. So wherever you can power share, wherever you can be influenced or learn somebody's experience, as a senior executive, your biggest risk is that you're isolated from all of this, and therefore you're not an effective leader. You're not positioning yourself for the future. You're harming your company, because you're setting this vision every day, but you--there's so much you don't know. So, you know, I think that's a good wake-up call for people usually. And if that doesn't work, [laughs] I don't know. I give up.Zach: [laughs] I don't know.Jennifer: I'm like, "I've given you now two books to read." You know, 63 podcast episodes. You know? Come on. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "What more do you want more from me?"Jennifer: What more do you need? It's writing on the wall. Wake up, you know? Get with--get on the train, you know, and be willing to make mistakes as we were talking about earlier, and, you know, even know how to do a good apology, 'cause, you know, I think there is a real art to a real apology. I think you said earlier [that] there's nothing worse than somebody who, like, says all the right things but, like, in this really authentic kind of faux, polished way.Zach: Yes. You know what? We're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the topic of apologizing [?]. Like, for real.Jennifer: Yeah, right? I love that apology. I mean, I love that topic. Sorry.Zach: No, no, you're good.Jennifer: But a good apology can make up for everything, and it's almost like a required skill set, particularly for those in the majority, because things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna mess it up. You are. And so being comfortable with uncomfortable, comfortable with hard feedback, and, to me, not slinking away into the corner but saying, "Thank you so much for that, and I'm gonna try it again, and I'm gonna do it differently." Like, wouldn't that resilience be really neat to hear and see in our leaders?Zach: It would. It would be great, and I think--you know, believe it or not I'm actually a little bit encouraged coming out of this conversation. This has been really good.Jennifer: [laughs] Really?Zach: Yeah, I am.Jennifer: Oh, that's good, 'cause we talked about some cynical stuff. [laughs]Zach: We did, we did, but it was real though.Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's such a mixed bag, but like you said earlier, like, we're living in really interesting times of awakening, and you're right--like, I think ever since the 2016 election I would say is when so many people and so many companies were like, "Oh, my goodness," you know? MLK Jr., "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." One of my favorite quotes, but guess what? We have to bend the arc. Like, the arc, it ain't gonna bend itself.Zach: Right? It don't just bend by itself. Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, that's the thing. So to me we've got to take that and bend it, and I think what we've realized is it's not this destiny, you know? Things aren't gonna happen without--and they aren't gonna happen because of good intentions. They're not gonna happen because we have maybe progressive values. They're not gonna happen because "Oh, I'm a male leader and I have daughters, so therefore, like, I am an expert on gender equality." No. Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: No. Like, you have to do something, and you have to do something publicly, consistently, constantly. I used an example in a book of Marc Benioff, who is the CEO of Salesforce, who discovered he had a huge pay gap and literally wrote a check for $3 million, like, right away and was like, "I'm gonna gross up pay for people, because I'm not gonna let this stand another day, then we're gonna do the harder work," right? Which is rooting out, like, why did this happen in the first place. And then as he's done this--he does it every year now--they've discovered, by the way, pay gap--not just gender but ethnicity pay gaps. Not surprising.Zach: Right.Jennifer: And then they've acquired so many 10s of companies that also had pay gaps as Salesforce acquired them, and they had to do a new audit, you know, and to look at their pay gaps and, you know, gross it up. So, you know, literally there are people that are--that are just being relentless on this, because under their watch they're not gonna let this persist. And so I do see a lot of courage amongst leaders, and that leaves me really hopeful. I wish I saw it more, and I wish I saw it more publicly. I think there's a lot of really interesting conversations going on with privately with lawyers and, you know, the board and, you know, sometimes I'm privy to those, and I'm really, really heartened by the interest I see in the C-Suite. I have to say, people are getting it, and I think their question now is "How do we change it?" And that's a much harder question to answer when you're dealing with a giant organization that does business all over the world and has to contend with laws in various parts of the world, and, you know, it's hard to know where to start, and I think that's where people are at, that they want to start, and that's a relief to me. I mean, it makes my job easier because I'm not fighting the "Why is this important?" battle all of the time. I am now able to--we're able to, like, roll up our sleeves and consider, you know, "Okay, let's get started." And it doesn't need to be perfect. We're not gonna accomplish everything in the first year. I love that you want gender parity, you know, next year, [both laugh] but please don't shout that from the rooftops and promise it to your board, 'cause, you know, you have some problems, and you don't just want to fix things cosmetically. You really want to build it to last, you know? So I am hopeful too. I mean, otherwise I wouldn't be in this space. It'd be just too damn frustrating. [laughs]Zach: No doubt. Jennifer, this has been an amazing conversation, and I feel like we could keep on going, but before we go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, can I give people the info about where to find me and my work?Zach: Do your thing. All of that. Let it go. Jennifer: Awesome. Awesome, awesome. Okay, so my new book is coming out August, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader." That's my second book. My first book is called "Inclusion," and it came out, as I said, in 2016. Good timing, at the end of the year. My podcast is called The Will to Change, and--I call it True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion. I've had some really amazing people on there. And on Twitter I'm @jenniferbrown. Yes, I've been on Twitter for ten years. I got my own name. It's pretty awesome. And I love--I love Twitter. I learned--like we talked about earlier--learned so much, so much, from those long threads where everybody's arguing about things. Like, read them, study them, listen a lot. You know, start to study your language and get ideas for how you should approach things. Twitter is great for that. And disturbing for all of the reasons that we know. @JenniferBrownSpeaks on Instagram, and then Facebook and LinkedIn I think I'm Jennifer Brown Consulting, but, you know, if people are interested in getting on our mailing list, please go to JenniferBrownSpeaks.com, and right on the homepage you can join. And please pick up a copy of the second book, which is really about the conversation that we had today. It's honestly about folks who are kind of sitting on the sidelines. How can you get into the fray, but in a thoughtful way, in a way that doesn't cause more labor for others? How do you get ready to apologize, because you probably will need to? [both laugh] But get in to the game, you know, even if it's in a very small way, even if it's in a private way. You know, just begin, and I think that if I could have more leaders sort of be less intimidated about the whole process and show a way forward--it's like, "Come in, the water's warm. You won't get--" "I hope you won't get hurt." [laughs] I know there might be some high feelings, but everyone is needed because the task is enormous. And so that's my goal, to kind of make it more comfortable for people to do more.Zach: So Jennifer, first of all, two things--we're gonna make sure we have all of the information in the show notes, so we'll make sure everybody goes there, and then we also on the website have our Favorite Things, and we'll make sure to have both of your looks listed as Favorite Things. So we got you. Jennifer: Oh, you're the best. Thank you.Zach: Yeah. Okay, well, Jennifer, we definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we can't wait to have you back. We'll talk soon. Jennifer: Count me in. Always. Thank you.Zach: All right. Peace.Jennifer: Peace.

On the fifth entry of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, touches on the subject of job search fatigue. Is it a real thing? The answer is yes. She shares a handful of helpful tips to keep your stamina up while job searching and more. Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. So if you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you are in the right place. I'm here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking all about job search fatigue. Is it a real thing? The answer is yes. Job search fatigue is real - so, so, so real. So I want to give you all some tips on how to keep your stamina up during the job search. Some of you may be in the midst of looking for a job right now, and I'm sure you may be ti-red. After filling out 100 job applications, you finally get that one interview--and yes, it may take 100+ applications to get that one interview. And then check this out - by the time you finally get that interview, you're already worn down and tired and have no energy for the freaking interview. [laughs] Has anyone been there before? I know that I have. So job search fatigue is most definitely a real thing, and unfortunately it happens to the best of us. You can be extremely educated, qualified, great skill set, and still have to put in application on top of application on top of application just to get one interview. I really, really wish that this process was easier for all of us, but I think it is important to find healthy ways to cope with handling the job search and to understand that for some of us it takes a shorter time to find a job and for others it takes longer. As a career coach, I've had clients that have landed jobs in just a couple weeks to one month to even six months. So the first thing that I want you all to think about, especially if you are looking at jobs or applying to jobs right now, is identify what's causing that fatigue. Where is it coming from? Can you pinpoint the issue? Maybe, just maybe, it's the time of day you're applying. You know, if you're working a 9-to-5, and you come home from work and you just jump right into applying for jobs, you're probably tired from work and not really taking a break from getting off of work to going home and relaxing a bit before jumping into it. Or are you laying in bed, you know, up until midnight, 1:00, 2:00 in the morning, just scrolling the job boards on your phone? So that's something to think about. What is the time of day that you're applying? Can you maybe apply to jobs before you go to work? Or maybe, you know, during your lunch break. Not at your desk. [laughs] I know how some of y'all do. Y'all be right at the office, at your desk, applying to jobs. [laughs] Maybe you're spending too much time. Maybe you're spending too much time applying to jobs. Yes, there is a thing as spending too much time applying to jobs. I'll talk about that in just a few moments. Maybe you're getting a lot of no's, you know? Maybe you're getting really discouraged and that's what's causing that fatigue. You're getting no after no. Sometimes you're not hearing anything back, or maybe you're hearing back from a job you applied to 2,000 years ago, right? And that can be extremely disheartening and discouraging. So I want to give you all some tips, just a few tips, on how to make this process just a little more easier. The first thing you want to do is you want to get organized in your job search. So when you're ready to start looking for jobs, when you have decided "You know what? I'm tired of this job that I have right now. I'm ready for something new, so let's do this thing," what is the first thing you do? Is the first thing you do go on these job boards and start looking at jobs and putting in applications? No. [laughs] The answer is no. You have to get organized first. When I say get organized first, I mean making sure you have the basics, right? Like, the basics that you have to submit for your application. That is your resume. If you need a cover letter--I do recommend cover letters as a career coach. It doesn't hurt to include one. They're not going to not give you the job if you don't include a cover letter, but most definitely the resume. You'll need to make sure your LinkedIn profile is updated, and you need to have an elevator speech, or what I like to call your career brand, identity, or story. Who are you? What about your experience makes you stick out amongst all the other candidates that are likely applying to the same job as you? But this is the most important thing you can do before you really jump right into the job search - know what jobs you actually want to apply to, and get specific. Get specific. For example, if you are in the, you know, finance industry, there is a million to one different types of jobs that fall under finance. [laughs] So it's important to know specifically what type of jobs that you're interested in, because if you just put in the keyword search "finance jobs," okay, you're gonna be getting a little bit of everything. So can you get more specific? Financial analyst. Maybe there's a specific type of financial analyst. Maybe you want to do financial planning, financial reporting. So it's important to think specifically about those job titles and those key words that you want to search for. If you want to even get more specific, maybe there's specific industries that you want to focus on. So if you can narrow it down, it's going to be super important. And another example is if you're in HR, there's a million in one jobs in HR as well. So do you want to be an HR generalist? Do you want to be in diversity, inclusion, and equity? Do you want to mostly focus on compensation and benefits? You know, these are things that are really important to know. How specific can you get? So once you get organized, you want to stay organized. What I mean by that is keeping up with your job search, with the jobs you're applying to, keeping track of your progress. One thing that I have my clients utilize during their job search is a job search tracker. Essentially, that is a spreadsheet--who doesn't love a good spreadsheet? [laughs] A job search tracker is a spreadsheet--or maybe you could use, you know, Google Docs or Microsoft Word or, you know, just something that will help you to keep up with the jobs you're applying to. The type of information that you will want to keep up with is the job title, the company name, the date you applied. You need to actually save the job description down, you know, like, in your own files. Copy and paste it into a Google Doc, a Microsoft Word document or something. Don't just bookmark the job description, because--and I may have mentioned this already, but what could happen is--let's say, you know, a company's only taking up to 100 applicants. Once they get that 100 applicants, they may close the job board and the job posting is down. So make sure you save it in a separate--in a separate file or folder for yourself. Anyways, in that job search tracker you'll have company, job title, date you applied. If you know the recruiter's contact information, keep up with that as much as possible, because what you don't want to happen is the recruiter calls you and says, "Hey, Joe. You know, I'm a recruiter with Such-and-such, and we're calling you about this job that you applied to," and then you've already applied to, like, 50+ jobs in the past day, so you may be on the phone like, "Uh, wait... who is this? What company? Can you tell me the job again?" [laughs] Right? That is definitely a turn-off to a recruiter. I'm a former recruiter, so I know. And that could be a sign of lack of interest if you don't remember. And I get it. Sometimes we're just out here applying to jobs because we just need a job, but you do definitely want to stay organized. You know, the other thing that you'll want to keep up with is your contacts, your relationships. Think about who's in your network, and go directly to the decision-makers, recruiters, the hiring managers, folks in HR that maybe know the recruiter. Or if you have a good referral at a company, that's great as well, but definitely start to keep track of, who you're talking to, what company they work for, what they do. Did they say they would put you in touch directly with someone? Do you need to follow up with them in a week or in a couple of weeks? The accountability is on you. It's not on your referral. So you definitely want to just know who you're talking to when you're talking to them and keep up with when you need to reach out and follow up again. You know, maybe you could include a reminder on your calendar to say, "Okay, let me make sure I touch base with Such-and-such at this company on this day." Put it in your calendar, right? So after you stay organized, or as you continue to stay organized, I want to talk about utilizing job boards. You don't need to use 10 different job boards. I promise you they may all have the same jobs. If you see that you're looking at the same jobs over and over and over again, it could be a few different things. Do you need to look at Indeed, Monster, Career Builder, Glassdoor, all of these sites? Do you need to look at all of them, or can you narrow it down to maybe two or three job boards? My personal favorite--well, I have two personal favorites, but my first personal favorite is Google. This is a new job board tool that they rolled out maybe just over a couple of years, where you can actually search in your Google Search bar the job title, the city, and it essentially will pull jobs from various job boards, that way you're not spending all of your time looking at multiple job boards. Google's great, and of course I love, love, love LinkedIn, because on LinkedIn it's going to connect you or show you who you can connect with who works at that company. So now that we've talked about utilizing the job boards, let's talk about alerts. Do you need to set up daily alerts, or do you need to set up weekly alerts? I promise you that these jobs are not going to grow legs and run away. Setting up daily alerts, especially if you're using multiple job boards, can be a little bit overwhelming, so maybe you set up daily alerts on just one or two job boards and maybe weekly on another, just to make sure that you're not missing anything. But just be mindful of that. The other thing with job boards is that you can search usually by two methods. You can search by relevance, and you can also search by date posted. If you find yourselves seeing the same jobs over and over and over again, maybe change your search from relevance to actually date posted. Depending on the job board that you're looking at, you can also search by jobs posted in the last 24 hours or in the last 48 hours. So that's something to think about. Next is find a hobby or launch a side project or learn a new skill. Just do something else outside of solely searching for jobs, or you will drive yourself crazy. It is important to have balance in this process, so find something that you actually enjoy doing that will allow you to take your mind off of the search just for a little bit, maybe even if it's volunteering. And get off of the computer. Go meet some folks in person. Do you ever sit in the house too long? I know that I do that, especially being an entrepreneur where I can work from wherever I want and I don't feel like going into the office. I may work from home three or four days in a row, and then I start to feel crazy because I need to be around people or I need some sunlight. [laughs] So get off the computer. Go meet folks in person. Get out of the house. Set boundaries with yourself. Give yourself certain times to apply to jobs. You don't need to look at jobs every second of the hour, and you can become obsessed with this to a point where it is unhealthy. Maybe there are certain locations in your home that you do not search for jobs in. I know for me I try really hard--[laughs] key word is try, but I try really hard to not work if I'm dead. You know, so when I get up, I make my bed, and--especially when I'm working from home, you know, I'll get dressed. I'll sit at my desk or at my table, and that is where I will work. So definitely set those boundaries with yourself. And then most importantly here is days. Take some days off. Like I said, these jobs aren't growing legs and running away from you. I guarantee you if you take one day off, even two or three days off, you won't be missing out on a job. Now, if a company is really posting a job and they take it down in 24 hours or in 48 hours, that probably wasn't the best job for you, but I promise you most of these companies out here are not putting jobs up that quick and taking them down. The only time where I've seen where companies have put up a job like that is because they have to do it for compliance reasonings and they may already know who they actually want to give the role to. So set those boundaries with yourself, as well as with those days. Make sure you take mental health days. Give yourself time to recharge, re-energize, refresh. Don't rush the process or stress yourself out. I promise you your job is coming, and when that job comes, you will know. So please be patient, be strategic, and--most importantly--stay positive. So that is all I have for today. Hope you all enjoyed it. If there's ever anything that you want me to talk about on here, from anything--career development, professional development, personal branding-related, feel free to reach out to me. You can find me on social media at @Latesha_Byrd. That is L-A-T-E-S-H-A underscore Byrd. Well, thank you all, and again, this is The Link Up with Latesha and with Living Corporate. We'll see you next time. Thanks.

On the twenty-ninth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield walks us through why LinkedIn is such an important platform for the modern professional and anyone trying to get into or grow within their field. He also shares a handful of statistics that help illustrate that fact.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on, y' all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week let’s talk about why LinkedIn is so important. Over my time doing this work, I’ve noticed that prior to working with me, many of my clients never fully understood LinkedIn and how it can help them. But if you talk to any career coach or resume writer they are going to tell you that you not only HAVE to be on LinkedIn but you have to have a BOMB profile and engage throughout the platform. So let’s walk through a few of the reasons why LinkedIn is so important. LinkedIn is the largest professional networking site on the internet boasting around 610 million members with around 121 million of those members using the site daily. According to a UMass Dartmouth study, 92% of Fortune 500 companies use LinkedIn. And LinkedIn states that there are around 90 million senior-level influencers and 63 million decision makers that use the platform. Based on those stats alone, I think it’s pretty clear that LinkedIn is a great place to not only grow your network, but your overall brand and thought leadership. No matter what company you want to work for, there is more than likely someone on the platform that works there or has worked there and that person could be a resource for you during your quest to land a job.To take this a little bit further, according to Jobvite, 77% of recruiters use LinkedIn for their social media–based recruitment efforts. While that number is down from 92% in 2017, that is still a TON of recruiters who are scouring the platform to find the perfect candidate for the jobs they’re trying to fill. You can easily miss out on all of those opportunities if you aren’t on the platform or if your profile isn’t updated often! Now, the last point I’m going to make is that LinkedIn is not only a networking site but it has its own job posting board with over 20 million jobs. There are also job search filters you can take advantage of to narrow your search by industry, function and experience. LinkedIn can also help you discover new jobs with instant job notifications, job title highlights and salary tools. Not to mention, quite a few jobs allow you to apply using your LinkedIn profile so you can say goodbye to all those crazy long job applications! Another great feature that many people aren’t aware of are the job seeking settings that LinkedIn has that allow you to let recruiters know you’re open to opportunities in various ways. I know I’ve thrown a lot at you, but these are only a handful of the reasons why LinkedIn is an important platform for the modern professional and anyone trying to get into or grow within their field. If you want to discuss how you can make your LinkedIn profile work for you, book a free consultation with me and let’s chat! This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @layfieldresume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn!

Zach speaks with Tamara Fields, the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture. She details her career journey to this point and offers her perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive.Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, I've got some good news, I've got some great news, then I've got some sad news, okay? So if you didn't know, Living Corporate has been partnering with Accenture to present to y'all a leadership series, okay? These are the most experienced North American black and brown managing directors, okay? This is what I'm saying. If you look at North America for Accenture, and you were to say "Hm, where are all the executive leaders who are black and brown and, like, who is the most senior in that group, and what are their stories?" Living Corporate would be able to say, "Oh, you mean these people right here? We got 'em." So that's the good news. That's the great news. The sad news is this is the last entry for now of this leadership series, okay? And my hope is that you--first of all of course you listen to this one, but [that] you'll listen to all of them, because we've been honored to have some amazing guests, and our last guest is no less amazing - Tamara Fields. Tamara Fields is the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture, where she is responsible for bringing innovation to clients, recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthening Accenture’s relationship with the community. She has over 20 years of experience in the health and public service sector, driving creative, strategic, and transformative solutions for federal and state government clients via multilateral project management, contract management and HR and financial transformation. My goodness, gracious. Sound Man, give me the Flex bomb. Just give it to me right here. [Flex bomb gets dropped] My goodness, gracious. An advocate for inclusion and diversity, Tamara serves as the U.S. co-lead for Accenture’s women’s employee resource group and the inclusion and diversity lead for the Accenture office in Austin. Tamara also serves as a coach and mentor in and outside of Accenture, helping people find their voice and preparing them for career advancement. She speaks at conferences and summits, like Culturati and Texas Conference for Women, and was recognized with the 2018 Central Texas DiversityFIRST award for her commitment to I&D. She is Accenture’s executive recruiting sponsor for her alma mater, the University of Texas, and sits on the Red McCombs School of Business Advisory Council as well as the boards for the Texas Conference for Women and Paul Quinn College, a historically black college in Dallas. So shout-out to our historically black colleges in Dallas. So I'ma go ahead and put the air horns right here [they drop], and I'ma give you that Cardi B "ow" right here as well [Cardi B “ow”], because shout-out to y'all. Love y'all. Now, look, with that being said, the next thing you're gonna be hearing is the interview that I had with Tamara Fields.[pause]Zach: Tamara, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Tamara: I'm doing great. Thanks very much. I appreciate being on.Zach: Oh, yeah. No, no problem. Look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Tamara: Of course. I'm just a Texas girl. Born and raised in Austin, Texas, which I feel like [?] is a unicorn--[both laugh]--with how Austin has grown, but yeah, I'm from Austin, Texas, and I currently work for Accenture. I am our Austin office managing director, so I'm responsible for our Austin office, and I'm also a key executive and managing director in our health and public service practice. So that means I spend quite a lot of work working with non-profits and higher education and with states. I went to the University of Texas at Austin, so I am a Longhorn - to all those proud Longhorns out there. And I think that's probably my quick summary on myself.Zach: Well, you know I gotta go ahead and give you some air horns for all of that, 'cause that's an amazing profile. [I drop 'em]Tamara: Ooh, I like the air horns. Can we have more?Zach: Oh, yeah.Tamara: [?]Zach: Oh, I got way more sound effects. I was trying to say--'cause this is what I'm trying to do. So as a side-note, Tamara--so, you know, Living Corporate has been around for a little over a year, and we add sound effects on the backend, but what I'm trying to do--we've got a soundboard now, so I'm over here trying to, you know, mix it up, add a little pizzazz. I was telling Rah that the last interview [that I was], you know, just trying a few different things out. So, you know, you may hear a few different things as they are appropriate in this conversation, okay?Tamara: Well, appropriate is always very important, so I appreciate that.Zach: Timing is everything.Tamara: And I will not be alarmed by your sounds, all right? Because I believe in disruptive innovation, so let's see what we can do.Zach: Oh, look at you. Look at you flexing. I see you now. Okay, all right. All right, now I'm activated. I appreciate that. [both laugh] So you've been with Accenture for over 20 years. Two sets of 10. Two.Tamara: Yeah. Are you trying to make me feel old? What exactly--[laughs] Yes, yes. Two sets of 10. Thank you, Zach. [both laugh]Zach: No. Well, the reason I bring it up--not to make you feel old. Can we talk a little bit about your journey and what it's looked like for you not just to survive but thrive in consulting, right? Because I've seen--in my experience in consulting and outside of consulting, black professionals--black and brown professionals, a lot of times they will get right up to either that manager or senior manager level and just kind of stay there for a while, and so it's rare--that I've seen, in my experience--many of us break into, like, the true executive-level leadership, and so--you know, it just seems like such a hyper-political space. I'd love just to hear about what your path has been.Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's very interesting. I mean, I think one of the very first reasons why I came to work for Accenture, which at the time was interested in consulting when I graduated, was because I saw people who looked like me. It's really that simple. I initially had a marketing background, so I wasn't even in the technology space at all, or the consulting space. I wasn't focused on that. And one of my friends signed me up, and I went to an interview, and as I was going through the interview process, I started to run into individuals and greeters that they had there, and a couple of people who were friends of mine, who had graduated a couple of years before, were like, "Come on, Tamara. Come try this out." So I did, and it's been interesting to me, because I think that that aspect is what's really helped my career. I think that consulting can be intimidating. There's a lot of work associated with it. You're always having to spend time to stay up on trends and skills and capabilities and technology, and you're always in learning mode at the same time as you're guiding your clients, but what I found most intriguing about it is the fact that it's not a product, it's about people, and it's a team-based activity, and I think, for me, that was important, because I like connection with people. And so I think what's really helped me navigate my career, to be honest with you, has been relationships, right? It's a diverse world, and I think you have a lot of opportunity to own your path and own your career, but you have to do that with having the right people with the right opportunities with your right skill set, and those three things have to match up, and early in my career I didn't really understand that. I thought if you just worked hard, surely you're gonna get patted on the back and get promoted. [laughs] So very quickly you realize that's not the case, and so I really had to learn a couple of key points that I'll share. One is advocacy. It is important, right? And understanding your contribution and what you bring to the table and being able to articulate that, not in a boastful way, but in a way that helps everybody understand the work that you're performing and how you're contributing. That's important, and that was [anti?] to my culture and my world, right? I was raised in a very--in a background that believed in servant leadership. You know, if you do a good job, that's good enough, right? And so it was really hard for me to advocate and really to tell my story and be able to represent my story. And the second thing that was important is you need relationships at all levels - those that work for you and above you, and understanding the ecosystem that you work in, the organization structure that you work in and understanding the key players in that are important, and you need to take the time to understand where you work, how you work, who you're working with. You need to understand how they contribute and leverage that network, and I know people utilize "network" very freely, but it's exceptionally important. Like, you have to have sponsors or a key sponsor, and that sponsor is only a sponsor if they are well-positioned in the company to be able to advocate on your behalf. So that goes back to that first statement of advocacy, and so I had to learn how to navigate that, and I had to learn how to navigate that with individuals who didn't look like me, right? Because when I first came into the company there were a lot of African-American females, and even now, right, that's something that we're committed to, and I'm really thankful to work for a company that's committed to inclusion and diversity, but overall in the technology space, the percentages of African-Americans or Hispanics or women, right, that's still a number that has to grow, right? And so the reality of that means I have to have mentors and sponsors who may not be my makeup, but they're still committed to my success, and I had to learn how to get past my own unconscious bias to reach out and to leverage them and leverage those relationships in telling my story to navigate my career to success. And that was hard for me on multiple levels, one because we all suffer from impostor syndrome at some time. We all doubt ourselves. I wasn't used to talking about myself in that way. Learning how to establish relationships differently, at different levels and in different ways, and so I really had to embrace that in order for me to see, you know, my career path grow.Zach: Wow. So look, you know, it's been a theme, right? I've been talking to y'all, and when I say y'all I'm talking about y'all Accenture MDs. And so I keep on dropping this Flex bomb, but I gotta do it again. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? 'Cause golly. You're dropping real stuff. But, you know, jokes aside, it all boils down to vulnerability, and that's hard, right?Tamara: So hard. [both laugh]Zach: It's hard to practice vulnerability with folks that look like you, let alone folks that don't look like you, especially if you've been burned a couple times by some of those folks who don't look like you. Then it's like, "Well, dang, okay. Not only are my feelings kind of hurt, I also need to figure out a way to preserve myself. So what does it look like for me to just exist here," you know what I mean? So I definitely understand, 100% agree, with every point you made, and I just--[coin sfx]--you know, I just want to--I really do appreciate you sharing those points, because it is true that a lot of times, like, we--I'll speak for myself, 'cause your point around servant leadership resonated with me. That's definitely, like, my background as well. It's, like, the whole just "Okay, look, lead with humility. Look out for those before you look out for yourself," and that framework, while I'm not saying it isn't--I still believe in it, but it creates challenges in spaces where everyone is so very much so looking out for themselves. So what does it look like to practice servant leadership, but at the same time tactfully, professionally, honestly advocate for yourself? Like, those are--that's a hard balance to find, you know what I mean?Tamara: It is, and I think what we think is sometimes they have to be mutually exclusive, and that's not the case, right? What I had to learn was--and I was actually coached on this. And this was hard, right? I was very used to always saying "we did this," and "we did this," and "we did that." What they really want to understand [is] "What did you do, Tamara, as part of this collective," you know, success or project that you're talking about. Because they understand that you didn't deliver the project by yourself. [both laugh] [?] leadership, right? What they're trying to understand is what piece of the pie did you have, and how did you influence that? What ingredients did you add into that pay to help that pie taste wonderful, right? And so I had to learn how to use the word "I," which was hard, and at the same time use the word "team." So I would have to say things like, you know, "I directed the team to do this, and this is how the team executed this." You know, "We set up this collaboration method or this design session," you know, and "I facilitated that, and the team came up with some really innovative ideas. I helped the team work through how to deliver that." You know, "I delivered these pieces of the effort, and I honed this client relationship, and I helped the client interact with these team members in this way." But it was really about making sure that we clarified how I personally contribute, and then at the same time also talk to the team objective. So you can do both, and I don't--and I think that's where people miss, right? It's not to negate what the team does, but that team is working for you. [coin sfx] They're helping you be high-performing. Absolutely give them credit for that, and you need to definitely talk about that, but you're a part of that team. You're directing that team. You're providing leadership to that team. Those aspects of what you're doing shouldn't be ignored, and you can share that and still share in that team's success, because your success is the team's success and vice versa. And so recognizing that fact I think was key in my ability to start understanding how to speak to how I contributed and how the team contributed and how we did it together.Zach: Amen. Come on, now. You know what? And something else can we talk about for a second is--'cause you talked about using the word "I" and, like, what it is you did. Can we talk a little bit about--in terms of looking to progress and thrive in these corporate spaces as a leader, as a person of color, as a--let me be more specific, because sidenote--and we're gonna get to this later in the questions--Tamara, does it ever annoy you when people use, like, the term "person of color," like, as a catch-all as opposed to being more explicit and saying, like, "black and brown?" And it's okay if--I'm just curious.Tamara: That doesn't bother me so much. I just think that what--what probably bothers me even more than that is I think that people should not be afraid to use terms, right? I am an African-American, and if you're concerned about what to ask, then ask me what my preferred term is and I'll share it, right? Because I think it's important to put out. It's just in the same way that when people say "I don't see color." I don't understand what that means, right? Because the reality is I am a person of color. I am an African-American, I am a woman, and I don't want to ignore these facts. They bring uniqueness to my personality, being a female, being an African-American, being a Texan, being a UT grad. They're all just aspects and characteristics that I bring to the table that I think is unique, and that's what brings that innovation to the conversation. So you don't need to ignore it, and a lot of times, if I'm presenting at an I&D conference or any type of meeting, I will say that just right off the bat, because sometimes you just need to take out the concern, the tension, the fear around these conversation points. I think it goes back to being authentic. You know, early in my career, it was hard for me to fully embrace some of these topics courageously, right? And I had to come to my own place of "This is who I am at 100%," and I had to represent me, and if I'm going to be an authentic leader--and I really think when I made that shift is when I actually started to see a lot more success a lot faster in my career, because I fully embraced who I was. And that doesn't mean everybody has to like it, but they need to respect it and understand what I bring to the table. And so I thin kit's really about the fact that you need to know who you are, fully accept who you are, bring that fully all-in from an authentic point of view, and you're gonna have success when you do that.Zach: I love it. So I paused and asked you a side question before I got to my real question. So my real question is can we talk a little bit about, as a leader, why it's important to make sure you're doing the right kind of work, and I share that because for me--I'm a newer manager. I've been a manager, like, maybe two years or so. I think this will be my second year just being a manager. I was coming from another firm. Now I'm at a new firm as a manager, and coming into this new firm, I've been--I've got the feedback that, like, "Look, Zach, as a manager--as a leader, your job is not to quote-unquote get things done. Your job is to actually lead the team." And so I know for me, I think just the way that I--maybe just my background, how I've been coached, I've felt like there's always been a pressure to prove myself and show that I'm actually doing something, as opposed to what does it look like to actually facilitate the team and drive results through the team that I'm leading. Can you talk a little bit about, like, your journey in pivoting from being, like, a person who just got a lot of tasks done very well to really influencing and driving results for a group of people?Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've had-- I think I've had two major what I would call crossroad points where that occurred, right? So just like you, when you, you know, made that point, from consultant to manager, you're--you know, and those are terms we utilize in my Accenture consulting world. It's that difference of you're part of the team and you're doing the work to you need to direct what the work and strategic vision needs to be, and you need to own that and direct the team and manage that, and manage the deadlines, the deliverables, et cetera. And I think really what that is about is understanding that you can't do all things and you need to prioritize your time and be effective, and it's hard for you to provide proper oversight to the team and manage the quality deliverables they're generating if you don't do that. What really helped me is, you know, we have various trainings, right? And we talk about what it really means--what are the expectations of a manager versus a team member, right? And I think that a lot of times we get these promotions, we don't always spend the time to understand what are the requirements and the new expectations for that new role. And so the first thing I would tell people is you need to just be straight up with your boss. "Help me understand what you expect." [laughs] "What do you expect me to do?" And when you start to write that down, then you've got to th ink about how you're gonna deliver that, and if you start to deliver that and you're at 80 hours a week, then you know somewhere there's a problem.Zach: You're absolutely right.Tamara: It's that practical at times, right? The other thing I would say is you--I believe in this mentorship concept and having people above you who can see how you're working and what you're doing, because sometimes we don't see, and you need to constantly be getting the 360 feedback, right? I believe in the 30/30, right? 30 days and 30 minutes, right? And you need to ask your leadership, right, "Am I operating at the level you expect? Where do you see those changes? What do you want me to do less of and more of," right? And you need to be asking those questions on a regular basis so that you're learning through that, and then you need to observe those above you, what they're doing, how they're doing it, and how they're working, right? It's a natural inflection point that when you switch to leadership you've got to delegate more. You've got to trust your team, and you've got to be able to balance when you dig in and when you don't, and you need to have the time available to dig in on the real issues and ignore the rest, and you can't do that if you're not at that right level of ownership, oversight, and digging in, right? But if you're always in the weeds you can never see--you know, if you're always in the trees you can never see the forest, right? And so you have to work on that strategic view. The second inflection point, which was really a bigger one for me, was really when I switched to becoming a managing director, and what was interesting about that was not so much about the work, because as a senior manager at Accenture, you're already managing pretty large teams and pretty large efforts, and they did a good job in giving us trainings. We even have special inclusion and diversity trainings for African-Americans and Hispanics. You know, we're very committed to that, and so, you know, I felt like I had plenty of exposure and understanding and coaching and development and leadership training, right? What I hadn't always understood is that [soft?] skill change that has to happen as you move up that ladder, right? [laughs] By nature I'm very direct, and, you know, how you have conversations at one level versus how you have to the conversation when you are truly in charge, leading an entire portfolio or a set of work or a set of people's shifts, and sometimes you do need to be more sensitive about how you share and communicate information and how you interact with individuals, because there's an expectation there of leadership that comes with that. And so, you know, when I first kind of made that transition, I was still somewhat operating in my previous, you know, method of operation. And I had a sponsor come set up a meeting with me, and I didn't know what--I thought we were gonna talk about this one thing and he was like, "Hey, Tamara, I've noticed something," and what was good about that is we already had the relationship. We already had the relationship, so he already knew he could setup the meeting. And because we had the relationship and because he was one of my sponsors, he just really wants me to be successful, and he knew--and because we had that established relationship, he knew he could have a direct conversation and say, "Hey, I don't think you handled this meeting correctly. You're now X. This is how I would expect you to handle the meeting. You need to think about that." And it was really hard, it was really impacting, but it was right, and so it really helped me to make that soft skill adjustment that I didn't even realize needed to happen. And when you have the right people in your world, and the right relationship with them, they're gonna help you be successful in that way.Zach: No, I love it. And it goes right back to what you were saying at the top, right, about relationships and trust and vulnerability, right? Like, if there wasn't a focus--if there wasn't that time spent in the beginning building those and practicing vulnerability and building those relationships, then you may not have had that conversation.Tamara: That's exactly right, and I think that hurts a lot of people because vulnerability is important, and you have to be willing to be humble. You have to be willing to be [?], to receive constructive feedback, and you have to have the kind of relationships where you are allowed and able to do that exchange. You know, I think that what people would say about me is honesty and authenticity matters to me 100%, and I tell them from the get-go, like, "I want to know. I can take it. I want to hear. Help me to understand, help me to grow, help me to be better," because the reality is I don't know all the answers. I don't know how to execute always and always in all positions, and I don't [?]. I need to still--you should always be in learning mode, and you should always recognize there's someone to learn from and something to learn about.Zach: Absolutely. So I think this is actually a really good transition point to my next question. You know, in your Essence Magazine feature--[Cardi B "ow" sfx]--you share a bit about how you've made it a part of your role to champion diversity.Tamara: Oh, yeah.Zach: Okay. So now, Tamara, so--you know, you don't know me, I don't really know you like that, but I'ma tell you - I'm a pretty gregarious person, and in a part of that gregariousness comes an ability to build relationships and have a lot of real talk sessions with black and brown senior leaders, right? So I've spoken to quite a few of them, and they're nervous about championing diversity because they don't want to be pegged as the "black person whisperer," or pigeon-holed in a space that is like, you know, away from business. So what are your thoughts on that, and how do you combat that perception?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a fair concern, and I think you always have to [?] for the company you're in. You know, for myself--let me just tell you straight up that I am passionate about inclusion and diversity period, and it doesn't matter what everybody thinks about it or how they--you know, if there's gonna be a negative or positive perception. I think that you have to do what is right for you and what is your moral code, and I believe that I have that responsibility, right? I was the, you know, first African-American female to be an OMD, right? The first female to be an OMD in the Austin office, right? I was one of the first black females to be promoted in Texas even, into a managing director role. I absolutely have a responsibility to represent and push I&D so that other people can see me, and if I'm not out there, you know, present for them to see, then they may not believe that that's an opportunity in this company, and I want them to know that it is, right? Because if I can get there, so can you. And so I just feel like--I feel very passionate about that. I'm not blind to that concern, right? And so I think the difference for me is I am in the business, right? I'm still managing a large portion of our business. I have a responsibility for a large, you know, P&L revenue responsibility, profitability responsibility, and I feel like I can do that job and still manage my career success and be committed to inclusion and diversity. Now, I will say that it's easier for me because I work at a company that is committed to I&D period, right? We were the first company to publish our numbers out there in the market in our space, and that was a pretty big deal. So we believe in it. We have accountability around it. You know, I have a CEO for North America who is female who has made a commitment to, you know, gender parity across our industry groups, right? I work in an industry group where we've already hit gender parity, in health and public service within the U.S., and that's a big deal. So this is not something they shy away from. It's a part of our responsibilities as managing directors, right? We have accountability for it, and so I feel that. So I feel like I am in a position to champion something that's important to me and at the same time deliver on the business, but I think you've got to do both. In the same token, right, I have an I&D role in my public service entity group, because I want people to know that this is important to me and I feel I need to represent that conversation. Equally however, I have just as many conversations about the business, my skill areas, around my clients, around technology trends. So people know me for an expert in so many different ways that I'm not just I&D. That's never going to be the conversation for Tamara, because Tamara has put herself out there around innovation and back office and front office and public service and--do you know what I mean? So my thing is you need to have more than just that dialogue. You need to have multiple dialogues absolutely, but you can do that. Incidentally though, there was a role that was offered to me that I chose to not take that was a +1 role in I&D, because I said, "You know what? We need to give back to someone else, 'cause I'm going to be doing I&D no matter what," right? I'm going [?]--I used to be the [?] sponsor of special, you know, trainings and learnings. I'm gonna show up at the conferences I think I need to show up. I will do that. I will make the extra time in my schedule to do that 'cause I'm passionate about it. Let's make sure other people are going down that path. I wasn't interested in being an I&D practitioner, 'cause that's not that I believe my role was. I wanted to be a managing director in the business, and I did that. [laughs] And so now that I've done that, I see it as an opportunity to be a strong influencer about where we move in that space, how we move in that space, how we're successful in that space, and I can influence that on my teams and in every way and be courageous enough to have those conversations. And I believe we have to be courageous about what's important, because the reality is we don't have enough brown and black people, so to speak, in this space, in technology. I want to change that, right? And so, you know, that's a decision I made. I think you have to make personal decisions. But what I would challenge people is, you know, "Why would you want someone else's path to be harder or more difficult than your own path? You should want it to be better and easier."Zach: Right. No, you're absolutely right, and, you know, I love your point around the fact that having multiple specialties--you know, not that you're gonna be a jack of all trades and a master of nothing, but if you have a handful of things that you're very, very skilled at--because let's say if you are passionate about I&D, and then you also have these other specialties, well, then you can then weave I&D into your domain, because I&D is ultimately focused on making sure that everyone feels involved, included, and empowered, and whatever you're talking about, especially in the tech space, is gonna involve people. So it's--I&D really isn't, like, sequestered over to something on the side. If you have a specialty, some type of depth of knowledge in something else, it's easy to then infuse that with I&D.Tamara: That's correct. I think that's right, and I think that you can have a huge impact on this space by just getting to a place of leadership, right? You can have a huge impact on the conversations that are being had and making sure that, you know, the right decisions are being made and the right opportunities are being offered for all people. At the end of the day, what we believe in is inclusion, right? We have this "Inclusion Starts With I" video that I absolutely love, 'cause it's not just about gender and ethnicity. It's about so many different aspects. It's about everyone having a voice at the table, and I think that's what's most important.Zach: Absolutely, and that's, again, a really good segue. So last year you were featured on The Daily Texan, where you gave your perspective on gender equality. Now, taking a step back, what I often see is when we look at--we really do look at gender in, like, binary terms, right? We don't really consider race as an intersect between gender, and we don't often include trans identities in these discussions. What is your perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive?Tamara: Oh, absolutely. So I'm a huge fan of employee resource groups. [laughs] So we have a--so it's interesting that you say that, right? So again, it's about your personal choice to get involved, but I'm the co-lead for our United States Women employee resource group for all of the United States, and it's an awesome opportunity, right? 'Cause it really gives me a landscape to do so many different, interesting things, and I have a full team underneath me as the executive sponsor. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, because this year we talked about "What are the topics out there that we want to have," right? And one of them was around this concept of intersectionality with various groups and topics that don't come up, and interestingly, like, we just scheduled a Women of Color Voices of Leadership call in July, right? And I'm gonna sit down with our North American inclusion and diversity lead, and we're gonna talk about some of the metrics that we see women of color in corporate America and what does that mean. What does that mean, and how do we address some of the gaps that we see in corporate America? What are the key concerns that are impacting them that might be different from other groups? And what can we do about it? How do we help everybody be successful? And so I think it's really about leveraging your employee resource groups to bring the conversation to the table, whether you're doing that through a national kind of Voices of Leadership call or whether you're doing that individually in your cities, 'cause we're fortunate in that we also have employee resource groups at every city location. And so we have them dial into the sessions. Sometimes they host their own sessions. We do leadership panels around these topics, and we've done them around all of these dimensions that you're talking about. And, you know, we have LGBTQ employee resource groups. We have men's. We have military. And people are really active in them, and they're very important. We do cross-pollination across our employee resource groups, with our African-American one and our Women one, because we think that's important, to have this dialogue and talk about what it means. You know, there was some really interesting national-scale stories going on last year that were impacting people, and we will do calls on them. And they're voluntary. People don't have to join in. And we can talk about "How are people feeling about that? What did it mean to come to work when that news story broke last night? How are you feeling?" Right? We think it's important to have courageous conversations and put that dialogue out there, and we do that through the employee resource groups so that 1. you recognize there's legal and HR concerns and you want to do that appropriately--excuse me--but it's the right forum, because that's where the people are and that's where the conversation should occur.Zach: No, 100%. And to your point around--I believe you're talking about some stories--you're alluding to death by police of black people and other, like, stories around--just tragedy and loss regarding black and brown folk in the media?Tamara: Yeah. Like Black Lives Matter or things around immigration, right? These are things that impact certain cultures in a very strong way and impact, you know, how they feel about--because we can act like we can completely ignore that, but we bring our whole selves to work, right? And we don't know what people are dealing with in relation to that, no different than when we talk about those who are having to provide elderly care, right? Or they're the main provider for their children, or, you know, they're dealing with sickness or illness, right? All of these matter--all of these things matter, and so we think it's important that those conversations be out there to deal with, because that helps people cope, and that's important.Zach: It is. It's really important, and I think one thing I'm really curious about--I'm certain that some organization is going to do some research and make it, like, a formal report, but there's a certain level of just emotional labor that goes into being a non--a member of the non-majority, right, in the workplace. Like, there's--you know, we've [seen], you know, on The Root and other articles in the past. We've called it, like, "Calling In Black," and we've kind it made it, like, a joke, but also there's a lot of realness behind that in that just existing in some of these spaces, existing as you are, seeing some of the things on the news, interacting in these spaces where you're one of few can be exhausting. And so I 100% agree that ERGs are a really strong help, and then also having leadership that looks like you is a help, but I'm also really just--I'm personally curious, like, just from a health perspective, what the mental toll is for black and brown folks in the workplace, because it's a--when you see some of these things in the media, folks that look like you or that remind you of a family member or remind you of yourself, that has to have some type of impact on you, you know what I mean?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think that all of us have these additional +1 emotional labor situations, emotional things, but I think that for myself, right--I feel like this has been our world before I even came into corporate America. So I feel like, right or wrong, people can think what they think about it. I believe this additional layer that you're speaking to, this additional burden, however you want to call it--that extra understanding that comes when you are the non-majority in a world. And I especially feel that in Austin, because--you know, African-Americans in Austin right now is, like, 6%, right? [laughs] So it's a very small percentage, and so, you know, I always went to, you know, schools that did not look like me, and I was the only one. And so, you know, and then the conflicts of that versus my weekend world with my family and my church that might be all-majority African-American, for example. I think that we always have that emotional toll, and, you know, just like anything, I leverage my family and my friends to manage against that, right? And what I have to be careful with is to make sure I'm reading situations correctly and not putting something in there that isn't, and then sometimes it really is what I think it is and how to best navigate that with either courageous conversations or raising it up through the chain, right? And we have to do that, and we can't be afraid to do that.Zach: 100%. No, 100%. Okay, so I've got a couple more questions for you. This has actually gone really well. I appreciate you. This is one of our longer conversations in this series, and this has been great. A large part of your role involves talent recruitment. Can you share your predictions about what organizations will need to do to attract talent in the next 10 to 15 years?Tamara: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, I think--for one thing, if they haven't already, they should be spending time--there's a lot of new companies out there that consult around the new generations and what's important to them, so the millennial generation, Generation Z, Generation Y, and what's important to them and how they operate and how they make decisions around company culture, and we've already done a lot of adjustments, and we're still doing that. I mean, we're pretty fortunate in that we're a consulting firm, so it's our nature to disrupt and understand trends for the future, right? We do that with [?] trends and our technology vision, but what we have found--and we've already gotten--I've gotten a lot of training around this already, but some of the ideologies, for example, for the millennial generation is very different than a baby boomer generation or even a Generation X, and so people need to spend time in understanding that. So for example, millennials are very civic-oriented, right? The percentage that they give, whether in time or money, is a lot higher, right? Sometimes they're more concerned with short-term versus long-term benefits. So example, in the past, right, if you were talking to a baby boomer generation, you would have spent a lot of time talking about pensions or talking about retirement and profit sharing or matching and all those things. Those same type of conversations don't immediately appeal to millennials. They really want to understand how they're gonna be valued, how they're going to move through the organization. They also want to know how the organization is giving back. They want to understand the corporate culture of the organization. And that's new, right? In the past, you didn't really spend so much time talking about corporate culture, culture fit or culture add, right, but these are terminologies that are gonna be utilized today, and so, you know, that organization has to spend time figuring out what is their culture, and what is the key messaging that they're presenting in that, so that people can make an interpretation of whether or not that's a good fit for them. You know, they're gonna want to see that that company is moving and changing with the world, you know? I think--when we presented as part of--a couple of years back, our technology vision that every company was a digital company, people were like, "What? What are you talking about?" Right? But the reality of today, I think everybody understands every company--it doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, from oil and gas to higher education, you're digital, right? Because people interact today from a digital point of view in every regard, from payroll to, you know, those who are in the service industry to those who are not, right? And so you have to have a presence socially. You have to have a presence from a web perspective. You have to have an internal presence for how you communicate, chat, with individuals. So every aspect matters, so companies have to understand that. They're gonna have to take a strong perspective on their work schedule and their flex schedules, you know? We have fully embraced truly human at Accenture, and I think that that's important, right? It's important for us to have flex schedules. It's important for us to have paternity leave. It's important that we have, you know, extended [?] maternity leave considerations. These things matter to the millennial generation, and they ask. They want to know, as a company, what are we sponsoring at a national level from a corporate perspective? What are we doing on the local level from a corporate perspective? They want to understand how you're going to train them and keep them up to date on skills, and so what are you offering around that? So I think, like, companies today have to be exceptionally dynamic. They're gonna have to spend time leveraging profiles, and again, what's gonna be a good profile that would fit and learn and do well in their environment. You're already seeing that with artificial intelligence. You're already seeing people trying to leverage AI as a way to do screenings initially on what is the right candidate pool for a company. So they have to adapt digitally, right? Because it's already starting, and that's going to be the path longer-term, right? So just--and having a really strong, you know, recruitment cycle from where they're pulling in and how it goes through that automated process. The time frames by which people get through the cycle has to be faster, because people aren't gonna wait, and the market is really demanding right now. What are they gonna concentrate on from a higher institution? What's the type of profile? So, you know, I think today companies really have to be on it. It's really competitive, and it's really hard, but my recommendation is they need to spend some time at first just studying who it is they're hiring. The largest work generation today is the millennial generation already, right? And so they need to understand that profile.Zach: All right, now, companies. Y'all hearing Tamara talking to y'all, okay? And we gave this to y'all for free. Y'all gonna be over there trying to get everything--y'all gonna be out here thinking y'all's company is all set up, you know, that y'all got everything going on, y'all got the latest and greatest, you know, DOS computer, and us millennials, we're looking at you like [haha sfx]. You know, you need to pay attention. That's all I'm trying to say. Tamara, this has been great. This has been great. My heartfelt thanks goes to you for just being here.Tamara: Oh, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to have my voice out there on stuff that I'm really passionate about. I really appreciate that.Zach: Oh, no, no. This is dope, and I know the people, they're gonna love this. Before we go--and you've been dropping jewels this entire conversation, but I want to just give you one more spot to wax poetic if you need to. Any parting words or shout-outs?Tamara: Yeah. You know, what I would tell y'all out there is to be you and fully accept who you are, and spend some time knowing who you are. You know, early in my career I spent so much time on my insecurities, and I allowed that to direct my actions, my communication, my lack of communication with people. If people didn't invite me to lunch, I just sat there being depressed versus being like, "Hey, do you want to go to lunch with me?" Right? And a lot of that centered around impostor syndrome and being uncomfortable in a space because it didn't look like me and with people who didn't look like me. When I really embraced who I was and that I was proud of who I am and what I represent and really understood what I brought to the table, then I recognized I can control that dialogue. I can control the stories that are out there about me, and I want to own those stories, and that, you know, fully embrace you. Be your authentic self and be all of you, from your hair to your clothes into the environment into the story, into the conversation, and do that unapologetically, at the same time with a spirit of humility and respect.Zach: [straight up sfx] Tamara, this has been incredible. We consider you a friend of the show. Again, we thank you for your time, and we hope to have you back.Tamara: I would love to come back, absolutely.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon.Tamara: Thank you.Zach: Peace.

On the fourth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, talks about the importance of salary negotiation - get your coins, sis/sir! She dispels a couple salary negotiation myths and offers up a few tips of her own to help you get what you ask for, not what you deserve.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. If you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you're in the right place. I am here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking about salary negotiation. Get what you ask for, not what you deserve. Also, get your coins, sis or sir. I know we have some male listeners, but this is a special episode because this past week we celebrated a holiday--well, I don't know if it's, like, a celebration or if it's more so of a recognition type deal, but this past week there was Black Women Equal Pay Day. Very, very important day, just to really bring awareness to this gender diversity pay gap. Listeners, this is not a drill. Black women make 65 cents on a dollar what a white man earns in a year, and white women bring home 81 cents. This epidemic is so real that this Black Women Equal Pay Day was launched really so that everyone could recognize some of the challenges that black women are facing as it relates to getting our coins. To break it down even further, it would have taken us working the whole entire year of 2018 and then some--like, up to this past week in August of 2019--to make the same amount as a white man in 2018. So I want to say that again - we can let it marinate a little bit. So essentially, for black women, we would have had to work all of 2018, plus up to this week of August 2019, to make the same amount that a white man made solely in 2018. Ladies, we are overworked, we're underpaid, and we're tired. We deserve more. That's why this Black Women Equal Pay Day is so important and also why I wanted to talk about salary negotiation, so we can really get our coins. Let's normalize salary negotiation. That's something that I think is really a normal part of the application or the hiring process that, especially for women, is seen--it can be seen as intimidating. So studies show that women actually negotiate less than men. The majority of women accept their salary on the first offer, while studies show that men are less likely to accept on the first offer. If you've been listening each week, you know my background. I've spent some years in recruiting, and I always noticed how men were so much more confident when negotiating their salary offer when the women that negotiated seemed very, very nervous. And the other thing that I noticed as well is that it was always men that would ask for more money. Even when they weren't, you know, fully-qualified to deserve, they would just ask just to ask, whereas women, I mean, we have degrees on top of degrees, we have all the experience, we have all of the qualifications, you know, yet we are less likely to negotiate. I even made this mistake very early on in my career. So I was--I'm not gonna name any companies [laughs], but I actually was really ready to leave this company, like, desperately ready to leave, and I interviewed, and I got through the final phase, knocked it out the park, it went really, really well, and about a week after that interview the recruiter called me. Completely, completely off-guard. I was at a conference. I was changing real quick to go to a session, not even really thinking about, "Oh, okay, what if the recruiter calls me?" And she just randomly called me, and she said, "Hey, we want to give you this offer, and this is what we're paying. So yay, we're so excited. Welcome to the team. What do you say?" Man, when I tell y'all I was just so damn happy--like, so happy to be getting out of my job, and I felt really pressured because she was just like, "Yeah, sis." Like, "What's good?" Like, she was like, "Here it is. What are you gonna do about it?" So I was like, "Okay, yes. I accept. I am so excited. Thank you." Whoo, when I tell y'all I realized that my colleague who actually kind of referred to me was making more than me, whoo... I learned my lesson. And of course now I coach a lot of professionals on how to negotiate for what they--for what they deserve, for what they desire, and just never do that. Please don't do that. Don't make the same mistake that I did, and just know that recruiters will call you at any time of the day and they will give you that job offer, and they will try to pressure you into "Hey, what do you say?" You know, "We're excited." No matter how desperate you feel, no matter how excited, even excited, you are about the actual offer, don't ever accept on the spot. You always want to say, "Hey, I really appreciate this offer. Thank you so much. I would actually like to see the full compensation package so I can look at everything that's being offered," and even if you want to throw, you know, this little tidbit in, for those who do have families and it is likely important to say, "Hey, I would like to see the full compensation package, and I would like to actually go over this or talk through this with my family," you know? Or "with my husband" or "with my wife," you know? But don't ever accept on the spot, and always, always, always ask 1. to see it in writing, and then 2. to see the full compensation package. So I have some salary negotiation myths that I wanted to share with you all. 1. You should ask for less to get in the door and work your way up. I hope that you out there listening are like, "Ooh, no." [laughs] That is the right answer. You should never ask for less to get in the door and work your way up, and here's the reason why. When you are accepting an offer that is lower than what it is you know you deserve based on your qualifications and your experience, that's actually hindering or holding you back from getting more money later down the road. That's literally limiting your future earning potential, because as you all know, when you get with a company, your promotions, your raises, all of that is based on your current pay. So if you already go in at a lower salary, and you didn't ask for more money, you just accept what they give you on the spot. Yeah, they may be giving you raises or bumps, you know, year over year, but that little 3% raise that you're getting each year could be a lot more if you had asked for that 10%, that 20%, that 5% increase to what they originally offered you. So you never want to accept less just to get in the door. The second myth? "Companies will be offended if you ask." This is not true. Like I said earlier, negotiating your salary or just, you know, negotiating for a better package, it's really a part--it should be a part of the conversation. It's just another step in the process. And most recruiters and companies are actually prepared to have that conversation with you, so they may be expecting you to ask for more money. That's why they're kind of going in at a lower offer, so that you can negotiate your way up to what it is that you should get. Companies literally save millions of dollars each year because we are not asking for more money. Next myth? "Compensation and salary are one in the same." Hey, these are different. These are different. So salary is one part of this negotiation. I know we talk about salary negotiation, but it probably would be better to think of it in terms of compensation negotiation or full package or full benefits package compensation negotiation. There is so much that you can negotiate outside of salary. You can negotiate for a signing bonus. You can negotiate for a performance bonus. You can negotiate for relocation, you know, better benefits--insurance benefits, dental, vision, all of that. More PTO, professional development. If you want remote--the option to work remotely or a flexible work schedule--let's say you have children, you know? And that standard 9-to-5 won't really work for you because you have to pick your kids up when they get out of school around 3. These are things that you can ask for. Lay it all out on the table and really think about the type of lifestyle that you want to live and how this new position can help to actually benefit you and to allow you to live that lifestyle that you want. So another myth--well, I'm just gonna throw out a fact. It doesn't matter what you made before. Now, depending on where you live, you will want to look into this law where in some states it is actually illegal for a recruiter to ask you what you've made in your last role. I live in North Carolina unfortunately. [laughs] It is very much so legal here, but depending on where you live, this is totally something worth looking into. I want to break this down a little bit more. So let's imagine that you are going to the dealership to buy a new car, and you want to trade in your car. You want to trade in your car. When you are trading in your car, they're not thinking about what you paid for this car when you first bought it. They're looking at the fair market value, meaning what that car is currently worth. I know we have some finance, accounting, consulting listeners out here, so we all know about depreciating value, right, of assets. So, you know, typically the value of the car goes down, right, as soon as you take it off the lot, but keep this in mind - they're looking at the market value of that car, not what you paid for it. The difference here is that as you, you know, matriculate throughout your career, your value is going to increase. So what your pay should be based on is your current market value of your experience, of your education, of your certifications, of your skills, of your leadership. Just, like, the bomb, dope person that you are now, that's what they're paying for. So that's why it doesn't matter what you made in your most previous role. So I want you to think about that. Also, you will want to do some research. Definitely do research on what salaries are being offered for the type of jobs that you are going for. My favorite resource is Glassdoor. LinkedIn, if you have a LinkedIn Premium account--which I highly recommend--you can also see some salary details. There is also PayScale. There's Salary.com. So check those out. They may not be extremely accurate, like, right on the dot, but at least it gives you some type of basis so you can kind of gauge what the pay would be. You also would want to look by location as well, because of course, you know, my cost of living here in North Carolina is much, much, much lower than the Bay, you know? Or much lower than New York. So that's important to keep in mind, but before you really start this interviewing process, you will want to know what type of salaries are being offered for your experience, for that job title, in your location, because not only will recruiters ask you what you're looking for, they may even ask you this in the very first conversation. This happens much more than it actually used to, so be prepared to have that salary discussion even on the first call. All right? So my advice for that, if you are asked, is to not give a range, you know? Some sources say that you should give a range. I've never really understood that, because of course if you give a range, they may come back and just offer you a salary at the lower range that you give. My thought is to have three numbers in mind, all right? That top number will be your dream salary. Like, you would be ballin' out of control if you could get this salary. That is a salary that you would love to get. That second number is--this is what you actually would want. [laughs] Maybe a little more realistic, but, like, that's the salary that you want, and then that third number is your settle number. Like, "If I had to." Maybe you just love the job, you love the environment. Maybe it's in an industry where the pay's a little bit lower but the culture is great, there's a lot of room for, you know, potential, and you know that they're just not bringing in as much money, like working for a non-profit versus working for a for-profit, you know? So just think about that settling number. So those are the three numbers that you have in mind, that way if they throw out a number you won't get thrown off by them 'cause you will already have those numbers in mind of what you want. And you won't want to ask for that number that you truly want. You'll want to ask for something that is much, much, much higher so that you can kind of negotiate down if need be. But, like, let's say you want 75,000, right? Like, you don 't want to tell the recruiter, "Oh, I'm really looking for $75,000," because they may come back and say, "Well, here's 65," right? So actually ask for 85, you know? Ask for 90. Then they can--you know, maybe they'll throw out "Okay, we can't do that. We can do 70," and you can kind of work up to that 75 figure. When you're asking for the salary--well, the other thing I'll say is try to ask--try to get a number from them first. I actually had a client who used this method, and she said that she asked the recruiter--and this is a question that you ask. You ask the recruiter, "What would you typically offer for someone with my experience and my skill set for this particular role?" And see what they say. Just ask, you know? Sometimes they may not want to tell you, or they may kind of seem like, "Um, can't really say. You've just gotta give us a number first," and at that moment you'll just have to kind of give them a number. But, you know, just throw the question out there. My client did this, and she said that her mouth dropped to the floor because what she actually was going to ask for was significantly lower than the number that recruiter gave her. So put the ask out there. If not, you have your numbers in mind. You want to make sure that you're confident. You want to make sure that you're confident, and you want to back up this by facts, factual actuals [laughs] of your experience, of your skills, of what it is you bring to the table and how you can add value, not your personal circumstances. Like, "Oh, I've just got so many bills to pay, and I've got these kids to feed, and I gotta take care of my family, you know? My parents are sick and I'm helping." Like, no. No, no, no. No personal circumstances. Trust me. You have the experience, you have the qualifications to back it up. So you get what you ask for, not what you deserve. I just want to make sure that you guys--if you don't take anything else away from this, just know that ask--just put the ask out there or you may live with regret. Trust me, I've been there. My clients have been there. Ask for the amount. You deserve it. So that's all I have for today. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions, thoughts or comments, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter @Latesha_Byrd, L-A-T-E-S-H-A underscore Byrd. Thanks for listening to The Link Up with Latesha with Living Corporate. I am your host Latesha Byrd, and until next time--and also repeat after me - you get what you ask for, not what you deserve. Bye.

On the twenty-eighth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield speaks about having an effective networking follow-up strategy and introduces us to the four-step approach he personally uses. Implementing these tips will surely help foster more valuable connections from your networking experiences!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, we're gonna talk about having a networking follow-up strategy. We've all gone to really cool networking events, connected with a few people, and ended up exchanging business cards, then we go home and toss them in the ever-growing pile of rectangular paper and move on with our lives. If this how you approach networking, you probably haven't made too many fruitful connections. If we want to build a solid network to lean on when we need them, then it's gonna take a bit more than crossing our fingers and hoping they reach out to us. We have to be proactive and take the first steps to connect outside of the event we met them at. Now, there are many ways to follow-up after an event, but I utilize a four-step follow-up strategy that I'd like to introduce you to that has proven to be quite effective for me. First, send them an email within 24 hours of the event. Remind them of who you are, where you met, and something you all spoke about. Tie it all together by asking them to grab a coffee or lunch, and even sweeten the deal by making it your treat. Number two, connect with them on LinkedIn directly after sending your email. This helps them remember who you are by attaching a face to the name. Number three, find a way to be a service to them. This can happen in the email if you've identified some ways while you connected at the event, or it can happen after you've met up. Remember, networking isn't just about what they can do for you, so no matter which route you go, be sure to lead by giving and initially expecting nothing in return. The fourth, and quite possibly the most essential, of the steps is to maintain the relationship by setting reminders on your calendar to catch up. This might sound silly, but otherwise you might not do it, and that network connection becomes what we call a "cold connection," meaning if you reached out to ask for something, it would seem like it's coming out of left field and that you're simply trying to use that person. Implementing this proven follow-up strategy will surely help foster more valuable connections from your networking experiences. Remember, it's necessary to not only build a network, but keep it warm by continually engaging with the people you've connected with. This trip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On today's show, Zach sits down with Jorge Corral, Accenture's Office Managing Director for Dallas/North Texas. He speaks about his experiences as a first-generation professional and what fuels his passion for Latinx representation in the STEM fields, and he also shares three points of advice for Latinx professionals.Connect with Jorge on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, if you didn't hear the last time or the last time before the last time, I gotta share something with y'all, okay? Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced black and brown North American managing directors to share their journeys. My hope is that you check these out and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Jorge Corral. Jorge Corral is the Accenture office managing director for the Dallas/North Texas region. He is the global lead for Accenture's sourcing and procurement business for the products industry and also leads Accenture's Southwest retail practice. Hold on. So look, he got both of these places, right? He got both of 'em, okay? Jorge serves as a senior business advisor to many senior global Fortune 500 executives and has helped a wide variety of large retail and consumer goods companies to drive top-line growth and to improve their profitability through transformational change. He has spoken as an expert at various retail, shared services, inclusion and diversity, and procurement conferences. He is a board member of the United Way of Metropolitan Dallas and the Dallas Regional Chamber. Jorge was recently profiled in the D CEO Magazine list of the most powerful business leaders in Dallas-Fort Worth. Listen, the most powerful business leaders. Not the most powerful Latinx business leaders, not the most powerful leaders of color. One of the most powerful business leaders period, okay? Check that out. Sound Man, go ahead and give me them air horns for that right there. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? And no disrespect to the--you know, making sure that you have the specifications around identity, but what I'm saying is he's just cold, right? He's just--he's that guy, okay? [laughs] In 2018, Jorge was recognized as one of the top minority business leaders by Dallas Business Journal and was also a finalist for D Magazine's 2018 Latino Executive of the Year. With that being said, the next thing you'll be hearing is the interview I had with Jorge Corral.[pause]Zach: And like I said right before the break, we have Jorge Corral with us. Jorge, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.Jorge: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Zach. It's a pleasure.Zach: Man, it's a pleasure all mine, trust that. So, you know, I just want to go ahead and just give a little bit of cheers--[children applause sfx]--for the fact that you're here. We appreciate that. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Jorge: Yeah. My name is Jorge Corral. I'm the Dallas office managing director at Accenture, which means I lead an office of more than 2,000 people in the Dallas-Fort Worth region, and my job is to really bring the services of Accenture and everything Accenture has to offer to solve business problems for our Dallas clients. And it's also about connecting Accenture more broadly to the DFW community. I also work in Accenture's management consulting practice, helping companies transform their businesses in different ways. I studied engineering and have two graduate degrees in mechanical engineering, and I also have a master's in business administration. And on a personal level, I have four kids and a wonderful wife. I was raised in a large Hispanic family in California, in Southern California to be specific. I was raised with five awesome siblings in a very large extended family, and frankly I think that's what set me up for success in the world I live in now, in consulting, because at the end of the day consulting is all about relationships, and I certainly learned plenty about relationships and relationship skills growing up in a big extended family.Zach: That's incredible. So, you know, you're talking about the fact that you came from relationships, and then that--and like you said, that translates into the relationships you now manage, not only internally within your Dallas office, but also externally in your community building and relationship building, which we're gonna talk about today. But, you know, you had a bunch of flexes within your bio. You talked about your professional background. You talked about your educational background. You talked about your family. You know, I can't really say congratulations on every single thing 'cause, you know, we only have, like, 30, 45 minutes, but I can drop some air horns. So let me just go ahead and--[air horns sfx]Jorge: [laughs] You are too nice. Thanks.Zach: No, no, it's not a problem at all. Now, in an interview with The Business Journals last year, you talked about better integrating the Accenture Dallas office with the Dallas community, and you expounded on some corporate partnerships that you helped build and amplify. Can you share more about the role of influence and relationships that they play in an executive position, particularly as a member of the Latinx community?Jorge: Yeah, I mean, I--I'll share to begin with that I like to live by one of the principles I learned from many people along the way, including my parents, and that's I really believe we're all responsible for making the world a better place, today and for the future. So for me, I personally didn't get to where I am by accident. I got a lot of help, directly and indirectly, along the way, and I recognize that many people broke a path so that I could have my opportunities. So I'm happy to find a way to give back, and in my Accenture role, you know, I'm really lucky and truly fortunate to be able to give back in different ways. So an example, over the last couple of years I've been able to join the board of the United Way of Metropolitan Dallas, and two years ago, we, Accenture, were able to commit to being the presenting sponsor of their Social Innovation Accelerator program. That really helps accelerate and mentor new non-profits that are providing support for our communities in different ways and solving problems that are around education, income, and health for our DFW community. So I've also been able to speak to Latinos on various platforms is another thing that I've had the opportunity to do, and that's both internally and externally. So internally as part of the Hispanic-American employee resource group leadership and externally at places like the University of Texas-Arlington's Center for Mexican-American Studies, where I've gotten just a lot of reward from being able to mentor Hispanic youth with a lot of promise. And I also have had the chance in the local community to serve on different panels, and one of the panels that I'm able to serve on from time to time is, you know, where we bring in 200+ middle school and high schoolers, and I just share some of my life stories and my life experiences up on the stage. And it's less about the story I tell you and more about sometimes when you're young, just looking up on the stage and seeing somebody that looks like you, sounds like you, that alone makes things possible. So I'm happy to give back in whatever way I can.Zach: Jorge, that's all facts. You're absolutely right, you know? It's interesting, because for me, you know, I thought about getting into consulting, and I--for me, I didn't even know it was something possible until I was in college and I just happened to see a black man who told me he worked at Accenture. And I was like, "What is--" You know, "What is that?" Right? And it went from something, you know, abstract and kind of esoteric to something actually very practical and possible, right? So 100% agree there. And speaking a little bit more about sharing your story, right? You came from humble beginnings as a son of Mexican immigrants. So not only you are a first-generation corporate professional, you're also a first-generation American as well. So what do you think are some experiences that are exclusive to first-generation Americans of color, and what advice do you have for those who are also the first in their family to really enter corporate America?Jorge: Well, I'll say that's a big, big question. I'll share my--I'll share my life story and a little bit about myself in hopes that, you know, some of that would--people could relate to it and maybe get something out of it. So I would just say that I feel really lucky and privileged in my background, because I'm part of a connected, large, loud, proud, loving, bilingual, bi-cultural family, and for me that is--I can't imagine a different life for myself. And for me I was very lucky 'cause I had very good role models. Like a lot of immigrants, my parents had an ambitious vision and were willing to put in a lot of hard work and invest the bulk of their lives so that their kids could have big, big opportunities. My parents were big, big into education as the way to advance us, and they sacrificed a lot for me. And, you know, in a lot of ways they didn't just talk about it, they lived it. So I'll tell you a quick side story. My mom went back to college at age 40 when I was 12 years old with six kids at home and a part-time job. So, you know, you can't imagine a better role model, right? And I also had smart, ambitious siblings who helped me too. So, you know, I've been really lucky in a lot of ways with my family life, and I'm also really grateful 'cause I've got a lot of help from different mentors along the ways in different ways and different ones over time. People helped me as I went through my education. People helped me as I entered the workplace and continue to help me, and I've been lucky to navigate the workplace because a lot of times--a lot of times you just don't know, and if you're first-generation and you're learning as you go, a lot of times you just need a little help with navigating. And, you know, we talked about before with sometimes just seeing somebody out there that's done it before that looks like you is helpful, but it's also--and it's also helpful for people to just give you a little bit of coaching along the way and tell you--maybe it's just a little nugget of information, maybe it's just a little bit of support, but all of those things kind of add up to a lot. So I would just say--when you ask me some of the different things, I'll just share a couple. First, I do think you need to be willing to work hard and also be willing to adapt to new things when you're going through experiences new. So if you're first-generation, things are new, and you just have to adapt and be flexible, and it's hard to be at first, so you just need to try to do your best to be the best you can, and then learn fast in terms of school, work, whatever. And then, as I mentioned, just get help along the way and really ask for help. And then second, I think you have to be tenacious, and maybe sometimes even a bit stubborn, and not let things get in the way, 'cause there's times when maybe you get frustrated or discouraged, but one thing I learned from my parents was not to give up, and I think it's a strength of our culture and just the immigrant culture in general.Zach: Man, I love that, and I--you know, it's interesting, because, you know, you're talking about immigrant culture, and you keep alluding to your family--and I love that, Jorge. That's so dope. You know, Living Corporate really is a space for black and brown professionals in the workplace, but transparently--I'm just keeping it a buck with you, right? Like, we have had some challenges in engaging minorities that are not a member explicitly of the African diaspora, right? So, like, what advice would you have for how black and Latinx professionals can be better allies and supporters for one another in the workplace? I mean, is there any--one, of course, any insights you have directed to that, but then have you had any experiences within your ERG on how you work with other ERGs at Accenture and how y'all practice community or allyship there?Jorge: Yeah. I mean, I think I would just begin by saying a lot of people of color--people of color share some experiences. Not all experiences, but a lot of experiences. I think we all would agree that we need a diverse world where everyone participates and feels included, but I think we all know that that's not always the world we live in. And it's hard to feel successful when you feel excluded. So I do think that while different groups are different in their own way, many of the experiences are similar, and there's a lot to learn from each other, and we all need to help each other. I would say in my life I've learned, and maybe had to learn, that everyone is different in their own way, but when you're a kid--you know, when I think back on it, on my childhood, when you're a kid you just want to fit in and not be different, and that follows you in different ways throughout your life, but I would also say that over time you grow and you learn, and I've learned that what makes you different is really what makes you special. But even today, I mean, if I'm being honest, if I'm being real with you, at times I find myself in situations where I look and sometimes feel different from everyone else, and when I do I remind myself that everyone, regardless of who you are, where you come from or what you look like, sometimes feels isolated, excluded, removed, alone, and it's simply a shared human experience. But it feels very--very personal. So in those moments I need to get past it, and so we all need constant reminders and maybe some help to remember, particularly if you're a person of color. So, you know, at Accenture I'm fortunate to work at a place, at a company, that's a leader in the market around inclusion and diversity, and we spend a lot of time collaborating across the African-American and the Hispanic-American ERGs so that everyone can learn from each other. We have summits together, and I like to think we share pretty well and help each other.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Just a light Flex bomb. Nothing too crazy. I love that. You're absolutely right, right? Like, when you--and the reason why I ask is because I think it's easy for us, in our differences, to sometimes, like, huddle up, and then in those huddles we then create, like, factions, and we kind of miss the point, right? Like, ultimately, all of us--while, yes, the experiences are not uniform by any means, we have a lot of shared experiences, and it's in those experiences that really should create some empathy that we have for one another. And I--you know, and I think that's really, really powerful. So you're passionate about Latinx representation within STEM, and you've alluded to some of that at the beginning when you talked about yourself a bit. What fuels your passion in this space?Jorge: Yeah. I mean, I'll just--I reflect on my life and, you know, unfortunately, many times in my life I've been one of the few or maybe the only Latino in many work, school, and professional situations, and I'm encouraged because over time I like to think it's gotten better, and now when I look at the people we're recruiting into Accenture, there's more people that look like me, and there's more people that come from diverse backgrounds. But it's not enough, you know? We're not there yet. And rest assured we'll continue to push for better representation, more diversity, more equality, et cetera, and it's important because we know when it comes to STEM that STEM jobs are one of the fastest-growing segments with a lot of opportunity, and STEM businesses are also influencing our society, but when you open up a business or tech magazine you still see very few Latinos, and as I've said, for us to grow and solve our world's problems, we need everyone to be included. So yeah, I think it's really important. I think STEM's really important, and for me, having a STEM education has helped me in many ways and I think opened the door to many of the opportunities that I have. So I want that for my community and for our extended communities.Zach: I love that, and if you could give three points of advice to Latinx professionals--just three big ones, 'cause I know you have a ton of experiences and insight and just points of success and things that you've done, but if you could boil all of that into, like, three nuggets, what would they be?Jorge: I'll give you three that come to mind, and I think these would probably change if you ask me tomorrow, or they may be nuanced or different a little bit, but I just think--the first one I would say is something I try to remind myself, and that's "just think bigger." I think we all limit ourselves. We limit ourselves in, you know, our day-to-day lives. We limit ourselves in our long-term goals, and I think we all just need to remember to think bigger. You can do more than you think you can. I think--I shared earlier one of the big things that I've learned and live by is just to be tough and keep going. Sometimes just being stubborn and having a goal and just keep pushing for it is the important thing. Just be tenacious. And then finally I would just say remember to give back as you advance your life, as you advance your career. I think we all have a responsibility to help others and to give back in whatever way you can. Those are three that come to mind for me.Zach: I love it. Thank you so much, and those are really powerful, so I appreciate that. And of course this has been incredible, and I just want to thank you again for taking the time and speaking with us today. Before we let you go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs?Jorge: No. I mean, I agree. It's been an incredible experience. I appreciate it. I thank you for having me. It's been really a pleasure to spend time with you today, Zach, and I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.Zach: Hey, man, thank you. The pleasure is all mine, and we definitely consider you a friend of the show and would be honored to have you back.Jorge: Thank you.Zach: All right, peace.

On the third entry of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, lists seven things that you need to know before you go into your next interview - know before you go!Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. So if you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you are in the right place. I am here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking all about interviews, our favorite thing ever. So I am going to be giving you all seven things that you need to know before you go into your next interview. Literally know before you go. And these seven things are things that you can go to the recruiter about directly. I spent a few years as a recruiter, and it was always interesting the candidates that would actually utilize me to help them in their interview process versus those that didn't. So if you are working with a recruiter during your job search, it's best to build a solid relationship as you go throughout the interview process. Those recruiters are on your side. They are the gatekeepers, and they can become one of your biggest advocates and an important accomplice to you, as the recruiter typically knows the ins and outs of the company, and the majority of the time the recruiter wants to see you win, you know? At the end of the day, as a recruiter, for any candidate that a recruiter brings in, that candidate is definitely a reflection of the recruiter. So why not use the recruiter? Because if you win, they win. [laughs] If you look good, the recruiter looks good. So with that being said, the recruiter wants to bring in the best of the best people for the job, and best believe if they're calling you in for an interview, you are that person. So I'm gonna go ahead and hop straight into it. These are a list of things, just seven things, that you have to know before going into the interview. Know before you go. If you don't know this information, ask the recruiter, ask your contact at that company, but you never want to walk into an interview blind, right? So number one--well, I'll tell y'all a funny story [laughs] about an interview that I had that was actually terrible. I did not get the job. And this was before I actually became a recruiter myself, okay? I was very young in my career. Very early on, before this whole career coaching thing came about, I was not the best interviewer, and there was one particular interview that I had. It was the day after I got back from a wonderful vacation, and I did not prepare. I didn't know anything about the job. So please don't make that mistake. And I was late to the interview. Yep, yep. I was late to the interview. We all know - never, ever, ever be late. It was downtown, and I had to go pay for parking, and I had to find a building, and I had to walk. So I'm, like, literally sweating and late walking in because I did not realize that, "Oh, yeah, I may have arrived 15 minutes early, but it's gonna take me 10-15 minutes to actually get to the right place." So I was late, and man, I got into the interview, and guess what? The printer was down. So they looked at me like, "Hey, you have copies of your resume, right?" Didn't have it. Didn't have it. So--[laughs] Yes, like I said, I did not get the job. However, I've moved way past that now, and I coach people every day on how to do very, very well in their interview. And it definitely takes practice, you know? You may have to learn from your mistakes, but I'm hoping that, through some of the things that I share with you today, you won't make these mistakes anymore. So again, like I said, seven things you need to know before you go into the interview. Know before you go. Number one is who is interviewing you? You should never walk into an interview without knowing who that person is. You need to know their name. You need to know their job title. And once you get their name, go and look them up on LinkedIn. Get some insight into their background, where they went to school, what their career path was, how long they've been with the company, what they did before they got with that company. The best thing about doing research on interviewers prior to the interview is that hopefully you can find some common ground between you and the interviewer, and if you can establish that common ground, it will create a connection and a long-lasting impression that will be hard to get. No, it does not seem stalkerish--[laughs]--if you're looking them up. I mean, I would hope that you would look them up because those could be people that you would work with every day, and we spend just as much time, if not more, with folks at work as opposed to our loved ones, our kids, our family. So I do think we should all do our due diligence with those people that we'll be working with and that will be interviewing us. Number two. What is the interview format? So the interview setup can vary depending on industry, company size, and location, but I do have a question - have you ever made the assumption that you're interviewing with one person only to find out it's a panel interview? You don't want to be that person, because that can bring in some nerves or bring up some nerves that you really weren't expecting. So be prepared. And you need to know "Is it one-on-one? Is it a panel interview?" Are they taking you out to lunch before or after? Does it include a case study or a presentation? There are so many different types of interviews now. You want to know exactly what the interview format is so you can set yourself up for success. Number three - what is the interview process? You probably will start with a phone interview, but then after that phone interview, do you have to do a panel interview and then a final interview with the executive of the group? Not only do you need to know the process, but you need to understand or find out about the timeline as well. "How quickly are they looking to fill the role?" is something that you should always know, or you can ask, 'cause that will give you some time to plan out your life accordingly. If they want to fill the role quickly, they are going to move a little bit quicker in the process. If they want to take their time, then that guarantees, on your part, that you may want to interview with other companies and not just sit around and wait, especially if you're in a rush or if you are, like, at your wit's end at your current job and you need to get out. So understand the interview process and the timeline. You can always ask for that. All right, number four - location and parking information. As I alluded to earlier, depending on where you are--like, if you're in a big city and the interview is either downtown or uptown, then you likely will have to park in a parking deck, maybe on the street somewhere. Again, it could be hit-or-miss depending on the time of day, but you may actually have to walk from your parking deck to another building, to another building, then you may have to go up some stairs. You may have to check in at the lobby. I mean, these are things that you have to know, so give yourself some cushion. And you will want to know this information upfront. Ladies--ladies, ladies. Listen. I know we love wearing our heels walking into these interviews. It makes you feel more confident, at least I know for me it does, but look, I don't want to park, like, half-a-mile or a mile away from the interview and have to walk in heels, okay? So just be mindful of where the closest parking is and give yourself some time to get there accordingly, but you have to know that. Number five - salary information. You need to know what salary--what the ideal salary of the position is, or at least what the salary is that you're looking for, even before the very first interviews--before the very first interview. I've had a few clients recently that have said, "I mean, I got on my first phone call with the recruiter, and they just asked me straight up, like, "What salary are you looking for?" And I was not prepared." So you need to know that even--like, once they call you for an interview, you need to know that before your very first interview. What is that salary? You don't want to be in a position where you kind of lowball yourself, because once you throw a number out there it's kind of hard to say "Oh, you know what? I didn't really mean to say that number. This is what I meant to say." So just do your research upfront. You need to know that before the first interview. Number six is the job description. You should never, ever, ever walk into an interview without the job description. And when I say, you know, know the job description, I mean know it. Study it, read it, highlight, underline, take notes. What I recommend is going through that job description line by line and actually writing out what you've done in your prior work experience that is directly related to that specific responsibility. You know, there's typically two parts to the job description - responsibilities and then qualifications, so go through the responsibilities. Try to mirror from your current role or previous roles what you've done that's very similar to that, and then even looking at those qualifications. If they're looking for certain skills--you know, public speaking skills, right, or presentation skills, write out certain times or periods in your career where you've had to present to a client, where you've had to present to executive leadership, because you may get that question "Tell us about your presentation skills. Tell us about the last time you presented something." And you will need to be able to speak to that. Number seven - basic company information. [laughs] Some companies will provide a link to things to know about the company before the interview. Read that in detail. You can even print it and bring it to the interview with you, and allow that to guide the discussion. Now, if you don't receive that type of, you know, information, then go to the company's website. Read the About Us page. You can look at recent news, you can look at what's going on with their social media, but you will want to have some type of knowledge about the company before you go into that interview because some interviewers will actually ask "Well, what do you know about us?" You know? Or a question that 9 out of 10 we typically get in interviews is "Why do you want to work here?" And don't just say, "Oh, this just seems like a great place. Everyone seems so happy." Like, what? You know, make it as specific as possible. Show that you've done your research. So those are the seven tips. Just to run through those seven things again, the Know Before You Go. Who is interviewing you? What is the interview format? What is the interview process? Location or parking, salary information, job description, and basic company information. Lastly, use the recruiter for help. The recruiter is there to help you. Again, if you look good, they look good. And the last tip I want to throw in here about interviews is make it personal. If you know someone at the company that you've had a conversation with about their experience, bring that into the interview just to kind of show that you have a little bit more knowledge about the company and the culture, the team. Anything that can kind of show that you know more, and you will definitely want to speak to how you can add value to them specifically through those conversations that you've had. That would be great. And the other thing with that too is--let's say you move through multiple interview rounds. Take what you've learned--what was discussed in the first interview, take that to the second interview, you know? When you're in that next interview you can say, like, "Oh, yeah. I had a great conversation with Sally, and these were some of the things that we talked about, and this is directly related to that question that you just asked me." So you want to show, as you continue to matriculate through the process, your knowledge of what they're looking for and being able to clearly speak to it. So, again, these are things you have to know before you go. Don't be afraid to ask the recruiter. Let's say there's not a recruiter. You don't know the recruiter. Like, reach out to whoever that person is that invited you in for the interview. These are questions that recruiters [and] people are used to candidates asking, so don't be afraid. Know as much as you can before going into the interview. And I hope this helps, and I'll see you guys next time. Bye!

On the twenty-seventh installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting emphasizes the importance of being aware of your online presence. He shares several steps you can take to ensure potentially inappropriate items don't fall into the hands of future employers.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, let's discuss your online presence. Have you ever Googled yourself and found pictures of you wasted at a college tailgate or homecoming? Thirst traps from Photobucket waaay back in the day? Or even posts from that one reckless friend that they keep tagging you in? I definitely have. I've done my fair share of craziness on the Internet. We all have, but it's imperative that we clean up our online profile to ensure these items don't fall into the hands of future employers. So let's talk about some of the steps that you can take. First, make a list of all of your accounts. This may be difficult, but it will help you understand what you have out there. If there are some accounts that you no longer use, then delete them to reduce the risks of hackings and identity theft. Second, remove all of the inappropriate items. Remember, at the end of the day, you decide what's inappropriate to you. I'm not telling you to hide yourself from your future employer, but just review the material on your profile and make sure you're okay with the images portraying. Third, review and change your security settings. If you don't want recruiters or hiring managers to see what you're posting, then use the enhanced privacy settings for personal accounts, but remember - nothing is ever truly safe or private when you post it online. Even after taking all of these steps and cleaning up everything, you never know what might make its way onto the Internet or what might resurface, so it's imperative that we keep an eye on our online presence so we're aware of what's out there. Here are two tips to maintain your efforts. First, search for yourself on several search engines at least once every three months. This helps identify anything you might deem non-professional quickly so you can work to get it removed. Second, set up Google alerts with your name. Make sure to set up alerts with variations of your name so you're kept in the know about what pops up on the Internet about you. Nowadays, thanks to the Internet, people feel like they know you before they actually do. It's up to you whether you control that narrative. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach sits down with Rah Thomas, a managing director in Accenture's Infrastructure Operations practice with over 15 years of experience. They discuss his role with the company and what it looks like to create access for other black and brown folks that are coming behind him. Rah also shares a few points of advice for today’s young leaders.Connect with Rah on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, again, y'all know what it is. Y'all should know by now, okay? We've been doing this thing for a few weeks, but again, if you don't know, you're about to know. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most black and brown--senior black and brown managing directors to share their journeys. My hope is you listen to these, check 'em out, and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our interview for the day, today, Rah Thomas. Rahnold, Rah, Thomas is a managing director in Accenture's infrastructure operations practice with over 15--that's right, 15--years of experience. His primary focus is digital workforce transformation and infrastructure transformation to the cloud. Okay, that sounds, like, super fancy, I recognize, you know what I'm saying? But just come on. Vibe with me. Rah is also the national co-lead for the African-American employee resource group. He works across all inclusion and diversity workstreams, meeting with senior executives to improve recruitment, progression, and retention of top talent, okay? So this interview is gonna be dope. Listen, okay? He got the insight. He got the juice. He has the technical know-how, the background, and he's plugged into these spaces to have the real conversations, okay? That's why I'm really excited to talk to Rah today. The core to both of these positions is seeing past the optics and standard view of people, process, technology, and then streamlining that into maximizing the real underlying value, okay? With that being said, let's get to it. [pause] Zach: Rah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Rah: Man, I'm feeling great out here, man. Feeling blessed, feeling blessed.Zach: Amen, amen. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Rah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I'm from the Bronx. New York.Zach: Okay, okay. Yerp. Let's go. [both laugh]Rah: I think by day I'm a managing director or partner for Accenture. I lead some of our diamond clients in technology and innovation, and then I also run the national African-American employee resource group for Accenture. So I'm helping shape our major diversity initiatives.Zach: That's incredible. So look, can we talk a little--can you unpack that a bit? Like, you have--you just said that you're one of the major partners for your diamond clients, and then you said you're the national lead for the African-American ERG. So those are two huge roles. Can you talk a little bit about both of those and what those actually mean?Rah: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely, man. I think--I think that being--on the technical side, I think that's sort of my craft, right? So I do cloud, right? I do service management, digital workplace automation, sort of helping do innovation for our clients. I have about four or five diamond clients that I help sort of push the line of innovation, which is a great segue into what I do from a diversity and inclusion perspective because I help our people of color--I mean, I'm the African-American lead, but I work with the Latinos, I work with our Pride, I work with all of our diversity and inclusion folks, and I help sort of shape that. You know, like, what is it from our targeted's perspective? You know, how do we handle things like escalations [and] things of that nature? So I go across the gamut nationally for all of that.Zach: That's incredible. You know, I love that because--when you talk about the fact that you're working across, because I think while every experience, every non-white experience, is unique, there's commonality in the fact that--and there's commonality in being some type of--just having a non-white experience, a non-majority experience, and so the fact that you're working across there is beautiful. And in fact, what I also think is interesting--and I'm late to the game, Rah. I didn't really learn until I was, like, in high school and college that the black diaspora is spread so far. So, like, when you talk about partnership across the Latinx spaces, so many Latinx folks are also black, right?Rah: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Well, so my wife is Ecuadorian, and my kids--so, like, trying to sort of help my children grow up and stuff like that, it's fierce out here.Zach: It is. It is. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let's talk about a panel you were on last September for Black Enterprise. You participated in--what they called it was "a real conversation about succeeding while black and the dangers of truth and perception in corporate America." So, again, you keep dropping bombs, and that's kind of been a--that's been really, frankly, a theme across all of these leadership interviews, but can you talk about what brought that discussion and what that discussion was really about? Can you unpack that a bit?Rah: Yeah. I mean, I think--so I know you can't really see me out here, you know, but, I mean, I am a black man with dreadlocks.Zach: Yes, sir.Rah: And I am a partner at the #1 consulting firm in America. Globally actually, right? So the challenges that I had to sort of come against--you know, I got kicked out of board rooms. I've had some real real experiences, and I had to talk about sort of some of the authenticity that I had to bring to the table. Being unapologetically black, however still giving way for comfortability for people to understand my point of view and helping them innovate and move their bottom line. So it was really a dialogue about, you know, how do you do that while trying to break the glass ceiling? Which keeps changing. Glass ceiling, rubber ceiling, concrete ceiling. You know, it keeps changing on you, right? So you're trying to unpack all of that. So it was--it was a good discussion with a lot of successful black men where we delved into that.Zach: Now, wait a minute. Now, you know, Rah, I can't let you just slide that by. You said you got kicked out of a board room?Rah: [laughs] Yeah, man.Zach: You gotta--I need to hear that. I gotta hear that.Rah: Oh, you're [?]? [laughs]Zach: I mean, you--you opened the door. I'm trying to understand how you got kicked--I want to hear that story.Rah: Well, I mean, it was just--you know, I think I'm one of the best at what I do, and I'm confident, and I walked in with my client and I was like, "Listen, this is what we got," and, you know, my client's boss, who was a C-level executive, was like, "What are you doing in the board room here with dreadlocks?" And I'm like, "Well, you know times are changing," you know? And then I started my presentation and he was like, "Listen, you sit down." He was like, "Actually, don't say another word or you'll never work for this company again," and I was like, "What?" And my client was like, "Yo, Rah. Hey, back down a little bit. Back down." So I let it ride, but--and that experience, which was crazy, wasn't the crux of [?]--I mean, it had an experience on me, but it was how my company responded to it that really pushed me to be like, "Yeah, this is what I need to do," because what happened was after that, then my company then came to me and said, "Hey, Rah. If you don't ever want to work in this space again, we don't have to do that. We know you're good at what you do. We know that you can change the world and innovation, so if you don't want to work with this client anymore, we don't have to." And I was like, "Wow, man, that's powerful."Zach: Dang, that's crazy. So the client was talking to you crazy, and then Accenture was looking back at the client like [haha sfx].Rah: Yeah, just like that. Exactly like that. [laughs]Zach: "Haha." [both laugh] That's wild. So okay, okay. Well, look, I know that was--well, it really wasn't a non-sequitur, because you opened the door, and I wanted to hear about how that happened. Okay. So in my experience, in the instances where there are black and brown folks who make it to senior executive roles, they're often leading in, like, a technical specialty, right? So they solve--this is from what I've seen, Rah. I'm not saying this is the way of life. I'm saying this is something I have observed. So they observe a particular problem, and they solve a particular problem in a particular way. So I believe your role is a little bit different in that you're having to lead strategic conversations and work to connect the dots across a variety of specialties to deliver the most effective solutions. Can we talk a little bit about your experiences in such a connected and integrated role and what you've learned in navigating these spaces?Rah: Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing about it is--right now I think folks can't see the future. Folks cannot see the future right now, and if you look at it, 50% of the Fortune 500 companies over the past 15 years have gone bankrupt. So right now they're all scrambling, right? Normally they'd like to look around 5, 10, 15, 20 years in advance, and they can't see that. At any given time, a Google or an Uber can pop up and change the game. So right now all of these senior executives are really looking and saying, "Hey, we need to absolutely tap the best of people. We need to tap the best talent period. We don't care if it is white talent. We don't care if it is black, Latino, Puerto Rican, Asian, whatever," right? "We need the best talent, because we don't know where that next idea is gonna come from." So that's primed for diversity right now, right? That's where we live. So I think that that's sort of at the crux of where we're at right now. So yes, I understand from a technical perspective I'm good at what I do and what I have to--I have to reinvent myself every three or four years, so I gotta keep being on the edge of things, but more than ever I have to--I wear the extra hat to inspire other people to be authentic so that they can unpack that untapped potential, because they might have the next great idea, and it might come from a hard-working single mother who's been doing 15 years working at Target trying to, you know, do 1-2-3 at Target as a manager, raising three or four kids in the Bronx, and that single mother might come up with the great new idea that runs the world. So it's, like, understanding that. You have to think differently about how you do business.Zach: Now, that's incredible. You're so right, because with technology brings a certain level of, like, a democratization of innovation, right? Like, it's not--it's not just gonna be reserved for this certain group over here. The access is opening up, and I really--I'm curious about this. What does it look like for you, being in the position that you are, to--what does it look like for you to create access for other black and brown folks that are coming behind you? Like, what does it look like for you to lift as you climb, and how does that practically work in your position?Rah: I mean, I think--yeah, I mean, like I said, I started the call with "I'm blessed," right? I mean, I'm blessed because God has given me the opportunity to actually have the ability to create opportunities for people, right? I mean, which is--it's amazing, and I actually--you know, I got put on--I advise corporate CEOs, and I'm advising our CEO, I'm advising our C-suite and letting them know, "Hey, listen, you know, this is what a population is feeling, and this is how a population wants to evolve," and they're, like--and they're listening. They're actually coming to the table, and they're like, "Wait, we had no clue," and I'm like, "Yes." So it's enlightening. It's enlightening and humbling.Zach: That's incredible. That's awesome. So, you know, it's interesting--to that point--we're seeing shifts in how we're being represented. I would say as millennials continue to expand their corporate footprint. We're seeing the largest group of black and brown leaders in the workplace, right? So, like, millennials, we're not the youngest, sexiest kids on the block no more--sexiest kids? That's mad problematic. You know what I mean though. What three points of advice would you give to young leaders today?Rah: Hm. All right, so I would say--three things? I would say be authentic, be vulnerable, and have the dialogue, okay? But I almost have to unpack that, right?Zach: Please.Rah: So I say "Be authentic." You gotta say it with your chest, right? Be unapologetic. Be black or Latino. Be whoever you are, because it is--it is that thing that might propel you to the next--you know, next plateau. "Be vulnerable," because sometimes when you share some of these deep stories and you work through--I started sharing stories about my family, and all of a sudden I got--you know, a Jewish person in Middle America is just like, "Wow, wait a minute. That same thing happened to me." I'm like, "Whoa, really?" So you start doing that. You start connecting with people. And then have the dialogue, 'cause--I'll bet it might be uncomfortable, but you have to have the conversation. We owe it to our ancestors to have the conversations and build these connections, because sometimes people don't actually know. That's what ignorance is. The definition of ignorance is not knowing, right? So people don't actually know, and if you could sit down--if you can muster within yourself to sit down and have that dialogue, man, you can really, really change the world.Zach: Man. "We owe it to our ancestors." Hold on. [Flex bomb sfx]. I had to drop that. Man. Come on, man. "We owe it to our ancestors," man. That's real, man. So let me pause for a second, 'cause we have these questions--you said earlier about being unapologetic in who you are. Do you have any practical examples of coaching that you've given somebody--I'm not asking you to out nobody--around, like--what is some advice you would give in terms of how folks can be more unapologetic? Because we've had episodes--and the reason I ask is we've had episodes in the past where we talk about respectability politics, right? Like, the concept that if you behave, dress, speak a certain way, that majority folks will forget that you're not in the majority, that in some way that is some type of covering or camouflage for you. What does it look like for you when you give coaching and advice and direction and guidance to black and brown folks at Accenture? What does that look like for you to encourage them to actually be themselves? 'Cause you've talked about a little but, but I want to hear--Rah: You want the meat, right?Zach: Please. Please.Rah: [laughs] You know, I think it's--it's actually different, right? And I'm learning. I want you to--you know, I'm not the full expert on it, because I think that I have to be humble and learn on it, but I think that there's--it's different for black, and it's different for Latino, right? For black, which is one in the same, that--it's more about the visual aspect, right, and bringing your authentic self from a visual perspective, and then from Latino, you have to recognize that it's bringing your authentic self from a listening and an audible perspective, right? So I try to make sure that as I'm coaching folks I try to take in multiple lenses, but I feel like me doing what I do can unconsciously give you the ability to do what you do, and I think--I was a keynote for one of these speakers at a women's empowerment conference, and I went there, and I wore my Ecuadorian jersey, and I had my suit coat on, and people were like, "Wait, what is he doing?" And I'm like, "No, I'm being me. I'm wearing my Ecuadorian jersey, and I'm wearing my suit coat, and I got my [?] on, and I'm me," right? But it was so amazing. I even--I talked about my father being in prison. I talked about some of these crazy things, and people were like--you know how many people came up to me and were like, "Wow! Wait, you're in corporate America and you've got family members that are in prison?" Or "Wait, you're in corporate America and--" Pow. I mean, I had transgender, I had everybody come up to me saying, "Wow." Like, "I want to talk to you about my situation," and I was like, "Pow." But it was me being able to be myself that unlocked other people's ability to be themselves, if that makes sense.Zach: No, it does, and you're absolutely right, Rah. So I know for me, coming in--I'm one of the first men in my family, on my mom's side of the family, to start and graduate from college, and I'm one of the few people in my entire family in corporate America. So not really seeing a model of what--how to practice authenticity, you know, in my immediate familial circle, coming into the workplace and seeing an example of that, it is empowering. And, like, you will never forget--you'll never forget those experiences or those--when you see it, and so that's incredible. This has been dope. Now--Rah: I was gonna say it's almost like the line, you know, "when keeping it real goes wrong."Zach: Yes.Rah: We have to almost combine that with recognizing [?], like, "when keeping it real goes right."Zach: Real talk. Well, a lot of us--a lot of times we think that, you know, if we do something too wrong it's gonna be like [record scratch sfx], right? You know what I'm saying? Like, [?], right?Rah: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: But it's not, right? Like, we actually have--we actually have a lot more power than I think we've been in some ways conditioned to believe, right? Rah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Zach: Okay, so last--so I got just a couple more. Now, you've also talked about the fact that you sit down with executives. You're having these conversations. They're actually listening to you. Based on your experiences, what would you say that organizations who are seeking to improve their engagement with black and brown talent--what are some things that they need to be thinking about and considering as they--if that's a pivot or a move they're trying to make as they seek to be more diverse and inclusive?Rah: Yeah, definitely. So I think the first thing is there is a lack of trust from the black community with corporate America across the board. So I think the first thing that you need to do in order to start building that trust is transparency. So when we start talking about the demographics, we start talking about compensation, we start talking about numbers, we start talking about, you know, what are our targets to make sure we can change things, that level of transparency is the start of a conversation, right? It's not the end all, like, "Hey, we published numbers and demographics. We're there." It's really around the start, and then the next thing is that we need to start talking about "Hey, what does good really look like?" "What does the utopia of the world really look like in corporate America, and how do we really achieve that?" And making sure that we're--we just did a leadership conference this past week, and I learned something completely new about transgender and the fact that they're struggling with bathrooms. And I'm like, "Wow." Wasn't even thinking about it, right? So it's--like, we have to listen to our people. So yes, be transparent and publish your information and start getting that level of transparency, but then second is sit down and listen. And when you start listening, "What?" [both laugh]Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And it's funny because--and by funny I mean it's frustrating, and often times infuriating, that, you know, when black and brown folks--when non-white cis heterosexual folks, when they're sitting down--able-bodied, non-able-bodied, disabled people--when folks in the minority speak up and they share their experiences, like, there's a huge level of emotional labor that comes with that. So I agree with you. It's imperative that if you're gonna have folks who have the courage to share something, it's not enough just to kind of nod and be like, "I empathize." It's about "Okay, well, how do we meet you and figure out ways to actually make sure that our culture is inductive to you being comfortable and thriving here," right?Rah: Yeah. So can I drop--I'm gonna drop one more on you right here.Zach: Come on. [both laugh]Rah: You're pulling me out. "Bring him out, bring him out!" [both laugh] So I think that it's not enough to be unapologetically black. You have to also accept those that are authentic in their world when it conflicts with yours. Okay, I'ma throw that back one more time.Zach: Say it one more time.Rah: [laughs] Right? It's because you can't let other people's inability to comprehend your greatness define how you're gonna be great, but you have to give them a way to be themselves as well. Because if we can't understand their opposition, they will never be able to understand our plight. So we have to come down to the table and say, "Listen, I need to talk to you, and I understand that everything you stand for is against what I stand for, but let's sit down and have a conversation." And when you do that you're like, "Wait, we've got more in common than we have apart," and that's when you start building bridges and connections.Zach: I love that. And I would imagine, Rah, because of the role in which you sit--you know, you're a MD for diamond clients, so you're having to work with all types of folks every day.Rah: Yes, sir. Yeah.Zach: And so it's about that relationship building. I'm gonna go off script one more time. [both laugh] So when I think about your brand--and I know what you look like, right? I looked on LinkedIn. I've seen the video where you talk about your hair and you talk about your faith. You know, what does it look like to manage--to manage relationships with folks who are not expecting a Rah when you walk through the door? And really what does it also look like when you--considering your position and your influence and your authority, what does it look like to really manage relationships with folks who might not be comfortable with a black--I'ma just say, frankly, with a black man telling them what to do or telling them what he thinks frankly. Like, what does that--what does that look like? How do you--like, I'm really curious about that, because I worked at Accenture some years ago--and I only knew, like, a handful of MDs at the time, and none of them were [?], so I'm really--like, this has been a question I've actually been wanting to ask just for myself. I've been wanting to know this personally. Like, what does that look like? 'Cause I'm just--I just believe that the folks that are running the diamond accounts--I'm sorry, the folks that are these executives, they're not used to--I just don't think that they're used to a black person telling them what they should be doing. So I'm just--I want to know. I really do.Rah: Yeah. So I gotta answer that in two ways, right? So first I gotta say sometimes I walk into a room, and I sit down, and I try to plug in my laptop, and I crawl under the desk and plug in my computer, and you get up, and I've had people be like, "Hey, can you go fix the projector for me?" And I'm like, "Wait, I'm actually the dude who's presenting." Right? [both laugh] You know? Right? So you have to--you can't get discouraged by that part, right? So that's the one hand that you have to experience, and you have to--you can't be like--you can't get mad and get your aggressions out. You can't do that, right? Because then I've also experienced a white male Catholic, you know, dudes that invite me to a male empowerment in the middle of America, and I went in there--I was like, "Wait, why is he asking me to go here? This could be dangerous." Zach: Straight up.Rah: [laughs] Right?Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, we'll go meet you out in the middle of the woods." You'd be like [never have the chance sfx].Rah: [laughs] Right? But I went out there, and I walked into this meeting, and there was about 20, 25 white males, and they walked up to me and they gave me a hug. And I was like, "What? What is--" I'm from New York. "What's going on here?" Right? And they started sharing stories, and they started giving me insights in my life. Like, I travel a lot, and they were like, "Yo, hey, if you travel a lot, you know, you should call your daughter on FaceTime so that she doesn't get disconnected from you." I'm like, "Wow," and I'm like, "Wait, why am I connecting with these white male Catholic Middle America Republican folks more than I'm connecting with some of these people that are in the hood that are trying to do different things," right? So I'm like, "Wait." You have actually have to sit down and have the dialogue. Zach: Hm.Rah: Pow. [both laugh] Zach: Rah, man, you are fun, man. I'm loving this. [both laugh] Okay, this has been dope. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Rah: Yo, this is dedicated to the youth, respectfully dedicated onward and upward. [?]! Sorry, had to throw that out there. But yeah, man, I just--I appreciate it. I do this for the people, and, you know, I just appreciate you having me on the show man.Zach: Man, I appreciate you as well, and man, look, we gotta--you know, we dropped a couple of Flex bombs. You know, I've been working on this soundboard, Rah, so I'm trying to, like--I'm trying to, like, add a little pizzazz to the show, you know what I'm saying? So I'm also gonna drop these real quick. [air horns sfx]Rah: Oh! [both laugh] Oh, man.Zach: Oh, man. Rah, we consider you a friend of the show, and man, I hope we can have you back.Rah: Definitely. Definitely, man. Thanks for having me, man.Zach: All right, peace.Rah: All right, peace.

On the second installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, talks about the importance of having a career readiness toolkit. She also lists the five things she considers a must when building your own. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready!Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd, and this podcast is for young professionals that need some real deal advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. So if you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you are in the right place. I'm here with Living Corporate, and today we're talking about your career readiness toolkit. So first off, what is a career readiness toolkit? Essentially it is what you need to be ready for your career at any moment, change, or event that could occur and significantly impact the trajectory of your career. So let me ask y'all this question. How many of us are living life on autopilot? What I mean by that is we are living life on a routine. I'm talking waking up in the morning, getting dressed, going to work, coming home, dinner, bed, maybe a little TV before bed, and then we do it all over again. There's no planning, there's no goal-setting. We are just moving on autopilot. Now, that happens to the best of us, where we can get into those routines and get comfortable. We may become a little stagnant. But when it comes to thinking about and handling your career in this manner, it could get a little dangerous. Now, I will explain why, but, you know, don't get me wrong. Living in the moment and enjoying the present is important, but being prepared for the future is even better, and you can do both. So if you guys have listened to the first couple of episodes you know that I am a career coach, and I talk to hundreds of people 24/7 about their career and their goals and what's going on in their workplace. Now, 90%--over 90%, actually, of my clients that come to my company for a resume makeover or a LinkedIn makeover, it's because they need a job ASAP. Like, by yesterday, and they should have gotten their resume and LinkedIn updated a long time ago. But you gotta start somewhere, right? [laughs] Let me be clear here, because this is gonna sting a little bit--you can be great at your job. I mean, I'm talking about killing it. Closing deals, getting ish done. Like, really doing your thing, and you can still get let go. So, again, you could be killing it at work and still be let go. I've seen this happen so many times. Now, I don't want to project any negativity or fear on anyone's career. That's not my goal here, but I want everyone to take accountability for your career and to--not to leave your future in someone else's hands. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. So going back to this idea of career readiness. You know, we hear the term "career readiness." It's more so related to doing career readiness programs for you, right? Helping them, young people, get ready for college so that they can transition into a career, but this was the challenging part for me. Career readiness is something that should be continued throughout your career and throughout your life. We should never stop preparing for our careers. I've coached people at the age of 23 to 25, 28, 30, 40, over 50. Our career is not just a one-and-done thing that we should just be ready for and stay ready for forever. That's not how it works, because our career, for most, changes over time. It doesn't stay the same forever. Now, this is important, because as the industry is changing and growing and emerging, and there's all these new trends, all these new technologies and tools, mergers and acquisitions, these new hiring practices, you know, with technology that's coming about. Nothing really stays the same. So our career is not really a linear path for most, so you have to make sure you're ready at all times. And there are things that may happen that's out of your control, so you've got to be prepared. You've gotta stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Another thing I want to note here is that--do you know anyone in your network, or maybe it's even you, who was poached for an opportunity when you weren't even looking for a job? You know, some of the best jobs come about when you're not even looking, especially if you are a high-performer. So it's something to keep in mind. The other thing too is that, you know, some jobs aren't really posted, or by the time they're posted they already know who they're going to hire for that role. So how can you build your career readiness kit? Or a better question is "What even comes in this career readiness kit?" So I have five things here that I want to share. The first in this whole kit is a resume. Now, I know you may be thinking, like, "Duh. Already know that." But I mean an updated resume. You know, you should keep your resume updated, really at least quarterly, you know? What happens sometimes is that we wait to update our resume, you know, when we just are in dire need. We may do it in a rush, you know? And then the other thing too is that it is hard to remember what you did in a position two years ago, three years or five years ago, or heck, even last year, so making sure that you're keeping it updated on a regular is gonna be extremely important. Second is a LinkedIn. Now, I'm sure you're like, again, "Duh. I know that." But not just a LinkedIn where you have a--you log in and then boom, there's your profile and your picture, but I mean a well-built-out LinkedIn that is SEO-optimized, every section is complete, there are recommendations, your skills and endorsement sections are updated. Like, your LinkedIn should be a 10. Now, the reason why this is important is because your LinkedIn can be just as impactful in your career, if not more, because people may see your LinkedIn profile before they even see your resume. You know, it's one of those things where, now in 2019, over 90% of recruiters are using LinkedIn to source talent, and so they may see your profile first before they even see your resume, but you have to make sure that your resume is--excuse me, you have to make sure your LinkedIn is the bomb so that when they reach out they will request your resume. So they kind of go hand-in-hand. You need your LinkedIn just as much as you need your resume. Now, the third is a network. Again, if you are living life on auto-pilot or if you are comfortable at your job you may not be in the practice of networking regularly, so you definitely want to continue to make sure you're building your network, not just within your organization but within your industry. When it comes to finding a job, people hire people. This is something that I really harp on. People hire people. So what I'm saying there is if you're in this job search game, if you are just applying to jobs online that you find, you're doing it wrong. Go out and meet people. Get out of your comfort zone, and get to know those in your industry that could be some great contacts for you. You never know who you may need in the future or how you may be able to help them. So the fourth thing is your brand. It's important to have a clear brand. Someone should be able to, one, see you online, right, or talk to you even in person and understand clearly how you show up in the workplace. How do you contribute to, you know, society through your career? That should be clear, and you have to make sure people know "Oh, okay, yeah, this is Sam over here. He is a bomb software engineer. He's doing X, Y, and Z." Boom. Someone should know what your brand is, right? Because your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. The last thing in this toolkit is confidence. So why is confidence important? Listen, I'm a former recruiter, and so I've met some really great--really great rock stars on paper, but then when we talk, you know, via an interview, they're very nervous, or they can't really elaborate or clarify, you know, about their work experience confidently. So listen, if you're not confident in yourself, who's gonna be confident in you? All right. So let me just kind of go down the list again in this toolkit. One is a resume, updated resume. Two is a bomb LinkedIn. Three is your network. Four is having a brand, and then five is having confidence. So that's all I have. Again, this is The Link Up with Latesha with Living Corporate. Thank you guys so much for listening, and have a great day.

Ade and Zach remember and honor the life and work of Nobel and Pulitzer Prize-winning author Toni Morrison, who passed away on August 5th, 2019, at the age of 88.Immerse yourself in her bibliography on Amazon.TRANSCRIPTAde: "So the literature you live and write asks and gives no quarter. When you sculpt or paint, organize or refute, manage, teach, nourish, investigate or love, you do not blink. Your gaze so lovingly, unforgivingly, stills, agitates, and stills again. Wild or serene, vulnerable or steel trap, you are the touchstone by which all that is human can be measured. Porch or horizon, your sweep is grand." That was an excerpt from Toni Morrison's letter "A Knowing So Deep." Toni Morrison can best be described as a writer for a generation, for a millennia. As a black woman, Toni Morrison did one of the most unique things I've ever seen in literature - she centered us. Rest in power. This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. As you know, we're not really, like, a current events podcast. We don't create content that way, right? Our content is fairly evergreen, and that's just the way we do things, but with that being said, there are instances where there are things that happen--if you recall, I think this was in Season 1, when Botham Jean was murdered by police we talked about that, you know? So there are instances that cause us pause to really do, like, something more targeted, or something more current rather, excuse me, and today is one of those times. And, you know, you heard Ade's introduction. Ade, why don't you talk a little bit more?Ade: Sure thing. So, as Zach said, we're not really a current events podcast, but when you lose someone as--and I don't want to use the term "lose." At 88, Toni Morrison lived a full, fulfilling, long life, but when someone as impactful as Toni Morrison leaves to join her ancestors, there's a significant tremor, I think, that we all feel, and I think it's important to put something like that to words. Now, at the time of this recording, Toni Morrison left this earth last night according to her reps, and I think--it shook me enough that I had to leave work and, like, have a chat, kind of talk to everyone else who might be feeling the same way, and even if you've never ever in your life picked up a single Toni Morrison book, it's never too late to start. Now, the reason that she's so significant might elude a lot of people, not necessarily because they've never read Toni Morrison and felt the weight of her words, but beyond how amazing she was as an author--which is deeply important--she was also an editor. She also contributed in a massive way to black history as it is being recorded, and it is so important that we're able to recognize and build on legacies like that. I'm gonna stop saying "um." I'm mostly just emotional. Toni Morrison had a way with words, which I think is the most singularly underwhelming statement I've made in all of 2019. You have to respect the sort of person who was able to craft an entire universe and prose, but you also have to respect the sort of person who kind of moves others to do the same. Like, there are writers and then there are leaders. I've never been a writer, but Toni Morrison charged all of us with the mantle of writers, insisted that if you have a story, tell it, take control of your own narrative in ways that I don't think we were empowered to do, told black stories from the perspective of black people in ways that I don't think it occurs to other people as necessary to do, right? Like, when you are systematically erased and made invisible in your own country, and then you dare to center your own narrative, there are a lot of questions, and some of you may remember the interview she had way back when--I think it was in the '90s or the 2000s--somebody asked her if she ever thought to write about white people meaningfully, of the lives of white people meaningfully, and that's sort of the question that we wrestle with on a regular basis, whether or not we realize it, is that as people of color, as people with marginalized identities, we are often asked to center the reality of others above our own, and what Toni Morrison did was powerful in that not only did she say "I'm not going to do that," it almost didn't even occur to her to do that, because the life you live is yours, and the life I live is mine, and the story that I choose to tell about myself is mine, and it is powerful because I own it, and the significance of that for me just speaks to authenticity. And I'm not one to wax poetic about authentic blackness, because I don't believe blackness is a monolith, therefore yada, yada, yada. I could insert all of the sociology prose here, but what I know to be true is that I don't often walk into a world that lets me just be. I am labeled and categorized and othered in a lot of different ways that really have nothing to do with who I am. It's everybody else's context of me, but reading Toni Morrison's works validated for me what I've always known in that I'm an individual and I'm allowed to be. Yes, I believe in my community, I believe in the strength of the community, I believe that we're stronger together. I ride harder for black women than anybody else in the world because we all we got, but what Toni Morrison stood for was our rights and not center other people's concerns about us, and it's the single most liberating concept, because once you stop caring what other people think about you, once you stop caring about, you know, being black in a public space where other people might not like your hair, your clothes, your skin color, your dialect, you get a lot freer, and you get a lot more mental real estate to care about the things that really matter, and that's just invaluable. I feel like I've been waxing poetic for hours. I'm sorry, Zach. Would you like to go over--Zach: No, no, no. It's all good. I relate to your feelings despite me not being--not being a black woman. Toni Morrison, like, she really carries the mantle and continues the tradition of black women really being the true North Star of human consciousness, or at least--especially American consciousness, in that she spoke the truth consistently, and she spoke the truth that wasn't just truth for black women or black folks. She spoke the truth, you know? There's a passage in--there's a passage in the Old Testament talking about wisdom, and the writer personifies wisdom as a woman, and the writer says, "Wisdom cries in the streets and lifts her voice in the square," and the imagery there is that there's wisdom in the streets and in the square speaking to be heard, crying out to be understood, and she's being ignored by fools, and Toni Morrison encapsulates that in so many different ways. For me it's just so timely, right? Like, when we talk about Toni Morrison--she did live a health--she lived a life, right? She did not die at an exceedingly young age, and we were blessed to have her for 88 years. Ade said so much. You said so much there that I'm not aiming to, like, be redundant. I know for me though, when I think about her quotes--not just her quotes and what she wrote, but, like, some of the things that--just the interviews that she had. Like, so from "Beloved"--I'm reading this one right here. "He licked his lips and said, "Well, if you want my opinion--" "I don't," she said. "I have my own."" Right? The reality of "Look, I don't--I don't need to bend my perception and my reality to yours," right? "My experience is valid because it is mine. My life is valid because it is mine, and to think my words and my truths are true," and that's powerful. We live in a day and an age, especially in corporate America--and I've had my own challenges, and I continue to have my own challenges, pains, both present, recent, and past that are really often built around not bending my knee to the fragility, to the entitlement, and to the insecurities of others, and Toni Morrison being a full-grown black woman her whole life--just lived her life without apology, and she wrote content that was without apology, and she carried herself with such matter-of-factness in her intellect and her genius. It was just incredible. It was absolutely incredible, and it's inspiring, and it's that type of attitude and it's that ethos that I believe really inspires Living Corporate, right? Like, we have--I have a mentor. I'm just gonna shout him out, Matamba. His name is Matamba Austin. Matamba Austin--and I'm also gonna shout-out Liz Sweigart. They're mentors of mine at my current job, and they encourage me with Living Corporate because--they say, "Zach," like, "Living Corporate is incredible because you're not beholden to anybody," right?" Like, "Y'all just do what y'all want," and, you know--come on. Like, Ade, we're not out here going crazy. We don't have too many gunshots on the podcast, anything like that, right?Ade: No thanks to you.Zach: No thanks to me, absolutely. You know, we have a few sound effects from time to time, but, you know, the point is we're not going all the way nuts, but we live in a world that is so built on control and, frankly, white comfort, that speaking truth in any modicum--speaking any modicum of truth rather, excuse me, is deemed as radical, and that's sad, and it's sad that we've lost someone who--or that someone has passed that embodied that so, but what I'm excited about and what I'm thankful for is that she has left a legacy of black and brown truth speakers. She has created a legacy, and she is one of the people who we can look to as one of our founders, right, of just black thought leaders, and that is incredible. And yes, she does stan. I do stan, rather. She is incredible. She is one of multiple--her, my mother, and Candis are some of the main reasons that I just--I have to stand for black women. Like I said from the top, black women are the--I do believe black women are the guiding star for human consciousness--like, for decency and consciousness in America for sure. And across the world, but I can speak to America as I live here. Any time you want to see the truth or you want to hear the truth, you just need to listen to a black woman, and Toni Morrison is a great example of that.Ade: Just a second that there's, like, a phrase--I don't know who the author was of this phrase, but I heard it a lot in my sociology class, Sociology of Education in particular because it's apropos. It's "We stand on the shoulders of giants," and it's so important that we recognize that because--I come from a very communal culture, and it's very easy to lose that in the U.S. because it's so very--we're so very, like, individualistic, but Audre Lorde, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, all belong to this genre of truth tellers, like you were saying, who, in their own way, in however medium they chose to share it, they just told the truth, and they told the truth in a way that centered the black experience, and we all are spawning from that well of wisdom. And so here's to Toni Morrison. Have a sweet journey home. Zach: So, you know, we could continue to go on and on. One quote that I really want to read, out of the thousands that we could, is that--there's one that just sticks out to me, and it's one that I think about often, so I'm gonna read it here. So it starts this way. "When you get these jobs that you've been so brilliantly trained for, just remember that your real job is that if you are free, you need to free somebody else. If you have some power, then your job is to empower somebody else," and that is so much so the foundation on which Living Corporate stands and, beyond Living Corporate, on which I stand philosophically.Ade: Yeah, yeah.Zach: You know, I think that we live in a day, right, that--so white supremacy is still alive and active, and we still work in organizations and corporations that are built around white comfort and built for and by white people. So, be it malicious or not, that is the reality of the world in which we live. At the same time--not at the same time--no, at the same time. Hm. At the same time, black and brown--Ade: Look at you discovering grammar.Zach: Look at me. Black and brown people are in more positions of relative power in these corporate spaces than ever before, and it is imperative that--it is imperative that we use our power to empower others, you know? A friend of mine, he quotes this--and I don't know if it's his quote or if he read it somewhere else, you know, but he says, like, "A candle loses none of its light by lighting another candle," right? And so this quote about, you know, your job being to empower someone else, your role is to help--to give to others, that's applicable not only to those who are in positions of authority and privilege and power and access, it's also applicable to us. There's something that all of us can do to utilize our voice, to utilize our access, to utilize our privilege, to utilize our power, to utilize our skill set to help somebody, you know? I'm not gonna go on some rant about black economics or anything like that, but I do--I believe that there are practical, every day ways that we can empower one another and that we can uplift another, that we can support one another. There are plenty of very clear ways that, again, those in the majority can help and empower underrepresented and underprivileged groups. And again, there's also ways that we can empower one another, and Living Corporate exists to empower. Living Corporate exists to amplify the voices of black and brown people in the workplace. Living Corporate exists to tell the truth without apology and without caveat. Living Corporate exists to speak truth to power and not to be beholden by anybody. So yes, we're gonna do partnerships with Accenture and these other large brands, and we're also gonna keep it a buck while we do it. That's our goal, and that's why we exist, and so I just--Ade: A buck fifty.Zach: A buck fifty, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, that--I don't have anything else to say. I have nothing else to add here. I'm just--I'm sad, but I'm thankful. I'm reflective of course, and I'm just--I'm glad that we're here. I'm glad that it was because of Toni Morrison that platforms like ours, including ours, is able to even exist and even be appreciated in any dynamic.Ade: Yeah. I think the beauty of a person like Toni Morrison is that we don't need any more words. She's said them all. And I think, on that note, thank you for listening to this B-Side. Thank you for joining us. If you know anyone who's never read a work by Toni Morrison, pick something up for them. I love "Beloved," as you should, "Sula," any of her letters, any--like, anything by Toni Morrison. Pick something up and read. It's a beautiful--it's a beautiful time to be reflective and truly start to get back to understanding what matters. And love your family. Hold them close. You've been listening to Living Corporate. I am Ade.Zach: This is Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

Zach sits down with Michelle Gadsden-Williams, the managing director and North American inclusion & diversity lead at Accenture, to discuss her role at work and why inclusion is placed first in her job title. They also talk about her book, Climb, and how she sees organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans people.Read Michelle's full bio on AIT, and check out her book on Amazon! Connect with her on Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and I’m really excited to share something with y’all, okay? Now, I shared this last week, but just in case you missed it last week I’ma share it again. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced North American black and brown managing directors and share their journeys, okay? My hope is you check out this and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Michelle Gadsden-Williams is the managing director [and] inclusion and diversity lead for North America at Accenture. Previously, she was the co-founder and chief operating officer of women’s empowerment initiatives and diverse entertainment investments, based in New York City. Michelle Gadsden-Williams has acquired a number of community service awards and accolades for her work as a diversity practitioner. More recently, she has been recognized as a 2015 Ebony Magazine Power 100 Honoree. Over the span of her career, Gadsden-Williams has been profiled in Black Enterprise Magazine, Diversity Inc., Diversity Executive, Ebony, Essence, Fortune, History Makers, Heart & Soul, Jet, New Vision—listen, y’all. Y’all get it, right? Okay, I’ma put the whole bio in the show notes. The point is Michelle has it going on. She’s killing it, okay? Beast. Straight up. [straight up sfx] And you know what? Also put one of those “owww”. [owww sfx] Like, this is crazy. I’m just so, so impressed. Her other notable tributes include being named the 2010 recipient of the Maya Way Award for Diversity Leadership by the incomparable Dr. Maya Angelou, receiving the 2008 recipient of the Harvard Black Men’s Forum Businesswoman of the Year Award, accepting the Rainbow Push Coalition’s Bridge Builder Award by the honorable Rev Jesse L. Jackson, and being recognized with an honorary Doctorate of Humane Letters Degree from Kean University for her outstanding personal and professional accomplishments in the field of diversity and inclusion. In 2013, Gadsden-Williams was appointed as a member of the Global Advisory Council on Gender Parity for the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Y’all… do y’all understand—like, come on. Give me the air horns right here. [air horns sfx] Like, this is incredible. I am just impressed. I mean, look, man, I’m over here—we grindin’. Like, like, like… [what more do you want from me?] Look, with that being said, the next thing you’re gonna hear is my interview with Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Check it out.Zach: Michelle, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Michelle: I am doing very well. How are you?Zach: [applause sfx] Doing really well, really excited to have you on the show. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. My name is Michelle Gadsden-Williams, and I am the managing director and lead for inclusion and diversity in North America with Accenture and the author of the award-winning book "Climb."Zach: Come on, now. [both laugh] Now--I love it. I love it from the jump. We'll be talking about Climb--we're gonna get there a little bit later in this conversation. Let's talk a little bit about the first thing you said, about the fact that you're the North American lead for I&D. And your title is I&D and not D&I. Can we talk a little bit about why inclusion has been placed firstMichelle: And this is a phenomena that's been happening, I'd say, over the past few years, where a lot of organization and diversity practitioners are starting to think of this notion of diversity as being--being a standalone entity is no longer enough, that inclusion is extremely paramount as having a culture of inclusion. So diversity is the invitation to the party, and inclusion is being asked to dance, as we say. So in my view, I&D is an essential component of everything that Accenture does, and we aim to be the most inclusive organization in the world, and so we recognize that inclusion and diversity foster greater creativity and innovation. So that's one of the reasons why we've decided to reverse it and have big I and big D.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, and it's interesting, because a piece from Take the Lead, where you were featured, starts like this. It says, quote, "When Michelle Gadsden-Williams started working in human resources in 1990, the mission in her field was called affirmative action." And, I mean, that's really interesting, right? 'Cause we talked a little bit before we started the show--we talked a little bit about your tenure, right, and the breadth and depth of your experience, and, you know--so you started in 1990. Despite it being almost 2020, there are still folks who believe I&D efforts are some version of affirmative action. So, like, how do you, as an executive leader, navigate the fears and frustrations of those who look at I&D as a zero-sum game?Michelle: Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I'm going to go back to a piece of research that Accenture conducted a short time ago. And one of the things that we've done, earlier this year, is to take a step back and think about, you know, what is this impact of I&D in the workplace, and so we conducted a survey of about 18,000 employees of companies around the world, and we asked two very important questions, one of which was "How inclusive is your culture?" The other was "How willing are you to innovate?" And so while diversity factors very much into--and has a significant impact on--the innovation mindset, a culture of equality is the multiplier, and that's what's really going to help companies maximize innovation. So when I started doing this work many years ago, and actually it was just before 1990--yes, it was called affirmative action, and the strategy was really more about "So how many individuals of difference do you have?" So it was basically a headcount exercise. It had nothing to do with culture. It had nothing to do with inclusion. It had nothing to do about what we're talking about today. So fast forward to current day. This notion of inclusion and diversity has evolved, and now many organizations are really starting to see the true power of what this work represents, that it's not just about counting heads. It's about making those heads count and ensuring that every single individual, regardless of their difference, has an opportunity to realize their potential, realize their ambition, have a seat at the table, and to reach their career aspiration, whatever that may be.Zach: That's a really powerful point, because--it's interesting. I've been having conversations with folks who talk about inclusion, and I've asked individuals and leaders of organizations, like, "Look, how do you actually define inclusion?" And people will say, "Well, making sure everybody feels included." And I was like, "Okay..." [both laugh]Michelle: Well, that's interesting.Zach: And I'm like, "Okay..." But what I think is paramount when we talk about inclusion is the fact that inclusion from my perspective--and this may sound--maybe I'm framing it radically, but there's some type of distribution of power, right, to individuals so that they actually have a true voice. Like, I don't--I don't see a voice at the table absent some level of authority or power. And so when you talk about, like, career development and making sure that they're growing and that folks are progressing and things of that nature, what I'm hearing is--and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so help me, keep me honest--what I'm hearing is is that part of that inclusion definition also comes with some level of--if it's, like, promotion or positioning them, positioning folks, so their voice can actually be heard in ways that make sense, right? It's not just about, you know, nodding and smiling, but making sure that they're actually empowered.Michelle: That's exactly right. We all--like, we're all sitting around a table, that it's allowing individuals the place and the space to allow their perspective or their point of view to be voiced. So we all have a responsibility to ensure that that happens, whether or not people recognize that or not. I believe that's what true inclusion is all about, ensuring that people who have a seat at that table, they believe that they matter, that their perspectives and opinions and points of view--that they matter.Zach: No, I love that. I love that, and it's so--I really do believe--and I recognize your point in that where Accenture is in their journey, in their I&D journey, but I would challenge that--as I've had multiple conversations with other leaders, HR practitioners, other folks who ascribe themselves as I&D leaders or D&I leaders--that definition of inclusion, it always falls a little bit short to me. And maybe my bar is a little too high, but I'm like, "Okay, at what point are we actually empowering these folks who have been historically disenfranchised and under-represented in these spaces with actual power and, like, authority, so that they can actually, to your point, have the space and the breadth at the table to speak and actually actualize something?"Michelle: Exactly. And I think to your point, organizations are just simply not seeing inclusion as the right thing to do anymore. It just makes all the sense in the world, especially when you're talking about creating a culture of equity and empowerment where every voice counts and all of those kinds of things. This is the action that's behind all of that.Zach: Absolutely. And speaking of action, this year marks the 50th anniversary of Pride, and our workplaces are increasingly diverse, and in that diversity, trans individuals are working in the corporate space at larger numbers than ever before, along with black and brown professionals and, of course, intersect--we can't ignore the reality of intersectionality, that we have black and brown trans professionals also in the workplace. And so how do you see organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans individuals, particularly trans women of color?Michelle: I believe it all goes back to culture first and for organizations to look at building cultures where every single individual feels included and where they can bring their whole selves to work. Things like the Pride celebration--we had a week-long celebration here in New York, which was amazing, and I'm still recovering from all of the celebrations--Zach: Yeah! I had some friends out there.Michelle: Exactly. I just think that it's really about focusing on the individual, their needs and wants and desires, and a lot of us have very different lived experiences outside of the workplace, and a lot of societal burdens, we bring those things into the workplace unfortunately. And so when we talk about inclusion, when we talk about intersectionality and all of those things, none of this works unless the culture is such that it encourages and fosters an environment where authenticity, where being your true, authentic self in ways that invites others to be curious about your lived experience, all of this helps an individual to be a lot more innovative, productive. They will, by nature, feel included. I just think that all of this resonates, and all of this will ensure that, you know, individuals, they will feel truly valued for their differences and to be--and feel free to be exactly who they are, that they're not just there to check a box and that they're empowered to contribute in many ways. So I just think that the underpin of all of this is around culture. It's around innovation mindset. It's about the appreciation of the differences that we all bring to the table and the understanding and awareness that we all don't experience the world, our workplaces, in the same way, and that's what intersectionality is all about.Zach: 100%. You're spot on, Michelle. It's interesting, because what your point reminds me of--we just had a conversation with Tamara, the MD out of Austin--Michelle: Oh, Tamara Fields? Yes.Zach: That's right, Tamara Fields.Michelle: [?] a friend of mine, yes.Zach: Yes, and we were talking to Tamara about the reality of emotional labor. Like, there's a level of emotional labor involved in just existing as a non-white person in a majority-white space, right? So, you know, you see something in the news--like, because we were talking about seeing whatever atrocity you want to choose from--and not to sound flippant or dismissive, but if you're looking at the border crisis or you're looking at a police shooting or whatever the case may be, absorbing that type of content and then coming into a space that is uniquely alien to you can be exhausting. And to your whole point around, like, culture, what I'm reading--and I'm not saying you're saying this. What I read that as is that organizations will--organizational culture will change as the majority allows it to change, right? Meaning that if the majority of a space are adaptive to a particular culture, then the organization will shift, but if there is collective push-back against whatever the initiative may be, then things will slow down, right? And I think we see that, not just at a macro level--or at a micro level in our working perspective, but we also see it, like--we've seen it in the history of America, and so I think that really leads me to ask, like, when you think about--when you talk about culture and culture shifting, what advice or--what are things that you've seen executives do, organizational executives do, to facilitate cultural change for more inclusive workplaces?Michelle: Well, I think there are several things that leaders must do, the first of which is they have to make I&D, inclusion and diversity, a priority. There needs to be established diversity objectives and priorities, equal pay, advancement goals. Like, all of that needs to be established in order to shift the culture to the desired state. The second thing I would say is making leaders accountable, holding individuals' feet to the fire, and we have to track progress and really have some tangible consequences where if a leader does not--is not on board, then there needs to be some sort of--and maybe it's not a consequence. Maybe that is a strong word, but there needs to be some accountability in terms of ensuring that diversity and inclusion is priority #1 if we are to create the ideal culture that we're talking about here. I also think encouraging risk taking and ensuring that employees know that they have the freedom to experiment, to ideate, to innovate, and that's what helps us all learn and grow as professionals. So I just think all of these things will help us get to that ideal state and also create a culture--you talked about the freedom to fail. I think all of this helps in that regard.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right. So, you know, earlier this season we had Chris Moreland. Chris Moreland is the chief inclusion officer at Vizient, and he was on the show. He talked a bit about covering and the actions that non-majority folks in the corporate space participate in to feel safe. I think the concept of covering--I know that you're fairly, if not deeply, familiar with it, as it's been--it's a fairly established concept. We see it in a lot of whitepapers from McKinsey to Deloitte. I believe Accenture's even talked about the concept of covering within the topic of D*I or I&D. What are some of the key covering activities you believe non-majority members commit in the workplace?Michelle: Let's see--okay, so say that again. So what are some of the--Zach: What are some of the key covering activities--what are some of the key ways that you see black and brown folks covering themselves in the workplace?Michelle: Oh. I would say things like not being active or involved in workplace activities like employee resource groups and things that can be perceived as polarizing. Sometimes people of color tend to opt out of things that might look or--at least from their perception--might look [like it's] nonsensical. So for example, I'm sure you're familiar with the employee resource groups or business resource groups depending upon which company you work for, and I've had individuals not engaged because they're like, "I don't need to be a part of that. I would much rather spend my time being part of the majority population." So that's a form of covering. I've worked with Hispanic colleagues who will change their name so that it's more Anglo-Saxon-sounding versus Latino-sounding. So for example, I worked with a gentleman named Juan Guzman, and he changed his name to John Guzman, because in his view it sounded less ethnic. That's a form of covering. So, you know, the list can go on and on, but I just think that when people cover--I don't think it serves anyone well. I don't believe in pretending. I don't believe in being something that you're not. You are who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals that have a gift and talent to bring to the table, regardless of what youre last name is, regardless of if you're wearing natural hair, regardless of if you are--if you have a thick accent and you're trying to get rid of that. I just think that the more in which these environments that we're working in are receptive and appreciative of the differences that we all bring, the better off we all are and the more productive we will be.Zach: No, absolutely. I love it, I love it. And it's interesting too because I think--so I was having a conversation with--I was having a conversation, just about some strategy pieces, with a colleague, and we were talking about "How do you determine, like, the members of your D&I space?" And the conversation was around "Well, we've got to make sure they actually go to events, right? They need to go to events." And I was like--and I was trying to explain to them. I said, "Look, I would not boot people out of a group, of an ERG or whatever you call it, right, in your respective organization--I would not boot them out of something because they don't physically attend an event." I said, "Some folks genuinely don't feel safe," right?Michelle: Right. That's true. And sometimes we just have to meet people where they are, right? Because everyone is not going to be on the I&D train, majority or not. So I just think sometimes you have to meet people where they are, explain to them what the benefits are of being part of these what I think are extremely beneficial infrastructures and organizations. It's support systems. It's infrastructures. It's, you know, an informal network of individuals who look like you, and you can talk about things that are unique and specific to your lived experience. So I think the more of which we can educate the non-majority members who don't feel safe being a part of these infrastructures--we just need to continue to work on them, but some people are not gonna get on board. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone is not going to be on the I&D train.Zach: No, 100%, and, like, I think the thing is--like, my point is I've been to some--so even when I worked at Accenture, right, like, there were happy hours and things, and the events--the events were great and people showed up and things like that, but I didn't always just--maybe I had a long day, maybe I felt like it was gonna be something else I was gonna have to kind of perform at. Maybe I was just nervous. Who knows whatever reason? That doesn't mean that I didn't want to be included in the group. It's just that that is not, at that point in time, something I felt like I had the emotional bandwidth to engage in. That doesn't mean that I might still not want to talk to somebody in that group or read whatever emails y'all send out. I just--it's different, and I think it's that--I think it's really considering that--especially when you have folks who are not black or brown or whatever that, you know, depending on that diversity dimension, overseeing the group. Like, sometimes there can just be some gaps because you just have genuine blind spots, right? And just understanding, like, "Hey, this is a different space," right? You know, this is not a technology implementation where you're coming to learn about the project or coming to learn about how this software, this SAP implementation, impacts your job. This is a space that's really meant to foster empathy, authenticity, and trust, and that's a different--to me a different level of measurement, right? And you can't just be so, you know, binary with it.Michelle: Yep, fully agree.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so let's do this. Now, you already kinda--you already kinda let a little bit of the dip on the chip, but can we talk about your book Climb? I'd love to hear about the inspiration behind it and why it should be something that professionals of color--and just really anybody, frankly--should have on their reading list.Michelle: Absolutely. So the inspiration behind the book was--I've always had the intention at some point in time in my career to write a book, and it wasn't until I was at Newark Airport in the United Airlines club lounge and a young woman walked up to me and she said, "Are you Michelle Gadsden-Williams?" And I said yes, and she said, "We used to work together many years ago at Novartis, and I've followed your career and all of the wonderful things that you've done. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book like Sheryl Sandberg or Carly Fiorina or Carla Harris at Morgan Stanley?" And I said, "Yes, but I just didn't have the time to do it." And she said, "You know, you should really make the time to do it, because you have an exceptional story to tell." So it wasn't until that young woman gave me that nugget, that idea to really take the time to do it, that's when I really thought seriously about putting pen to paper and telling my story. And so the act of climbing has been defined as the act of rising, to ascend, to go upward with gradual or continuous progress, and it's a term that I've used to describe my career over the years as a woman, as a woman of color, and as a diversity practitioner, and as you and I were talking about earlier, there's some individuals who have an easy go of it and can take the proverbial elevator up to the C-Suite, and then others not so much. They have to take the stairs with a backpack and no air conditioning. There's no smooth ride to the top for any of us, and so no matter how you ascend there is a journey that we each experience which, you know, ebbs and flows and it twists and turns, but with every step you get that much closer to achieving your highest aspiration, your North Star, whatever that might be. So my book Climb speaks volumes about my professional journey, and one of the things that I'm extremely passionate about--and this hasn't changed over the years--is helping people of color to maximize their full potential in corporate America, no matter where they are, no matter what profession or industry they're in or wherever they're employed. I've used myself as the subject, the protagonist, to candidly describe my jorney, and that would be the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in-between. And what I wanted to do was to focus on tackling some of today's most pressing workplace issues that people of color typically run into, but more importantly I wanted to offer some pragmatic solutions. So that's why I decided to write the book. It's my version of "Lean In" through my lens, the lens of a woman of color.Zach: I love that. So you talked about some of the challenges--and again, I'm not asking you to give the sauce away for free, right, but when you talk about some of the most common challenges that you're seeing black and brown folks face in the workplace, like, can you give us an example of one of those challenges?Michelle: Oh, sure. You know, working twice--being twice as smart, twice as good, but getting half as far. You know, that's the old adage that most of us, at least those of us of color, we've heard that growing up in our households. You know, this is not, you know, just jargon that we hear on television. It's our lived reality. And so, you know, the bar is simply at a higher level for those of us of color, and most of us know that.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, you're absolutely right.Michelle: Exactly, and most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: Hold on. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Michelle: Most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: We gotta break that down. Unpack that.Michelle: We can have mentors all day long, people to show us the lay of the land and how to navigate and all of those things. We don't need that. We have a lot of that. We have plenty of that. We need individuals who are going to have a seat at the table, who are gonna be our advocates and champions and our, you know, sports agents sitting at that table, negotiating for us, putting our names up for promotion and for those stretch assignments where it counts. That's what we need.Zach: That is--that is so true. I've never heard it framed that way, but you're 100% right, because frankly I do believe--and in my work experience this has been the case, right? So this was the case when I was at Accenture. It was the case when I went to Capgemini as well and as I've progressed onto my current firm. There are black and brown folks around me--there are minorities around me who would show me how to do something, right, or give me the real from time to time. I was blessed with that, but what I didn't always have--and I had it more than others, to be clear. ['Cause] I have gotten promoted. Like, I've been able to progress in my career a few times, but the people fighting for me, right, the people who are really advocating for me in the same way or just even in a percentage of the way that they may advocate for someone who doesn't look like me who's doing half as much as I'm doing, right? And that's just a really good point. And it's so interesting, because when I talk to--when I talk to black and brown folks, particularly black women, the conversation often comes with a point of like, "Look, I'm working this hard, and I'm doing--I'm going above and beyond every day, and the response when I'm doing all this work is "Well, that's what you're supposed to do," but then if someone who doesn't look like me is doing, like, half of that--" To the point you talked about earlier, the old adage, which is based on history and reality. They do half of what I'm doing. They're getting their praises sung from the highest rafters, right?Michelle: Exactly. And so I think most of us who have been working in corporate spaces and places, we just understand that there's just more scrutiny on our performance, and a lot of this can lead to, you know, just lower performance, you know? Our self-esteem goes down. You know, lower ratings, lower wages, and sometimes job loss, because you're just not happy. So I just say all of this to say that yeah, the bar is simply at a different level for mostly women, but moreover [more] people of color.Zach: And you know what? So that last little point of distinction you made--and I promise I'm not trying to keep you forever, but it reminds me about the fact that you also--in the book you talk about intersectionality, and I feel like that point you just made just now was kind of an example of that. Could you unpack why you broke that out and you said "women," then you paused and you said, "Well, people of color."? Like, what was the--what caused that pause?Michelle: Well, that was just in my research for the book. Women and/or people of color, we do have similar challenges. Not quite the same, and this intersectionality that we're talking about--and this is such a topic that I have a lot of passion around, you know? I was just having a conversation with a majority female colleague of mine yesterday who just happens to be a peer, and she said to me, you know, "Michelle, we as women, we have the same challenges and we have the same barriers, don't you think?" And I had to pause for a second, and I looked at her--and I can't play poker, so I probably gave her, you know, a "Are you crazy?" kind of look. You know, as a woman and as a woman of color, my lived experience is vastly different than yours. So basically [what I said] to her is that, you know, "When I stand in my drive-way in Somerset County, New Jersey--that's not diverse at all and one of the most affluent counties in the state--but I'm standing in my drive-way and I'm holding my neighbor's child, who happens to be of the majority population, and the FedEx guy pulls up and wants to deliver a package to my home, that he automatically assumes that I'm the help and that she owns the house." You know, how often does that happen to you, colleague? How often is it when I walk into an elevator that the purse clutch scenario happens? And it happens to men of color too. So I could break it down for you in a lot of different ways, but, you know, my lived experience as a woman and as a woman of color, there's the double bind. So it's an interesting dichotomy, but it's real.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] It is an interesting dichotomy, but it is real. Absolutely, and that's why I had to give you the Flex bomb, 'cause you're dropping straight facts. [both laugh] Okay. So look, this has been a great conversation. I'm honored and just very excited about the fact that you're here and that you joined us today. Before we go, any parting words or shout-outs?Michelle: Oh. This has been a terrific conversation, so I thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. Any parting words? You know, one of the things that my father would say to my two sisters and I growing up is, you know, "You are not here on this earth to take up space. You're here to make a difference, and it's up to you to determine what that difference is. All that I've given you is the tools, the education, and the rest is up to you." So all I will say to your listeners is you have to figure out what your passion is, what your purpose is, and determining how you plan to exert your power. You know, what are some of the kinds of things that give you fulfillment? You know, what feels natural to you? What qualities or attributes do you enjoy expressing to the world? And then just go for it. Anything is possible. Anything is. We just need sponsors, mentors, and others, other allies, who are gonna help us get to that next level. And if there's anyone out there who thinks that they can do it alone, I believe that they're sadly mistaken.Zach: And that's absolutely right, 'cause if you think--if you really think that in this space, as a black or brown person, that you're gonna navigate these historically-white spaces by yourself? Hey, I'm looking at you--Michelle: Exactly. I mean, we're working in institutions that weren't historically built for us.Zach: Absolutely.Michelle: We were not welcome, so therefore we have to be twice as good, twice as smart, Ivy League-educated or whatever the case is. We know that we need to do alllll the extras in order to get to where we want to be.Zach: No doubt. And I was just trying to say that if you really think you can do it by yourself, I'm looking at you like [haha sfx].Michelle: Exactly. Exactly.Zach: Well, Michelle, I just want to thank you again, you know? At some point in the episode we typically drop some Jamaican air horns, because--[Michelle laughs, Zach laughs] Out of thanks or out of exuberance, and I'm just gonna say I'm gonna drop these out of thankful exuberance right here... [air horns sfx] because this has been a dope, dope episode, and I look forward to having you back. Thank you so much.Michelle: Absolutely. I look forward to coming back and wishing you all of the success in the world.Zach: Thank you. Peace.Michelle: Peace.

On the very first episode of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, lets us know that selfies are not headshots, and she graciously shares a few tips that help take a great one. Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBTRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, y'all? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd, and I'm here to help you find your calling, clarity, and confidence to level up professionally for your career, and today we're talking about why selfies are not headshots. I tweeted about this recently, and my timeline was literally blowing up with DMs and mentions about it. Now, the tweet says, verbatim, "Selfies are not headshots. Now, repeat after me. Selfies. Are Not. Headshots. Now let's say it all together. Selfies are not headshots." When I tweeted it, honestly I was just sick and tired of seeing selfies as headshots over and over and over again. It was funny, but all jokes aside, it has to stop. As a career coach and a former recruiter, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, and we've all seen this time and time again where someone's profile picture is just downright weak sauce. It's not professional. It just doesn't work. It's bad. Now, specifically, talking about LinkedIn, your profile picture is the first thing people will notice. Statistics show that LinkedIn members with a photo receive far more engagement, 21 times more profile views, and 9 times more connection requests. That's just one of the many reasons why it's so important to have a quality headshot. As a former recruiter, I would look up every single person on LinkedIn--yes, every single person--before I interviewed them, and I can attest that all other recruiters do the same thing. Your online professional presence is important, and your picture is the first impression. So let me ask you this. Do you want to make a bad impression or a good one? Selfies. Are. Not. Headshots. Say it with me. [laughs] So I want to talk about what else is not appropriate in a headshot. There are other people cropped out of your photo. This is always super awkward, where you can tell that clearly there was someone cropped out of the picture, because guess what? You can see a hand on the shoulder. You can see maybe an arm around the shoulder. It's weird, and it's distracting. Other things. If you have on a tux, or if this is a picture from your wedding... I know you look nice. That was probably the best day in your life, right? But that's doing a little too much, okay? Now, blurry or fuzzy photos, that really has to stop as well. [laughs] Or we've all seen this, someone has a picture of them on the beach. They're on vacation. You know, you can see the water in the back, you can see the sunset. Now, unless you are, like, a professional traveler, not the best picture to use. Other things I've seen is if the picture is too dark and it's kind of hard to make out who the person is in the picture, or--we've all seen this--where someone is holding a drink. Definitely no drinks in your picture. There really should be nothing in your hands. And then the other thing is your headshot should not really be showing your hands at all. So let's talk about what actually is some things that make a headshot good. Now, let me just say this - professional headshots are the way to make sure that it gets done right and it gets done well, but I do understand that paying for professional headshots can be a little bit costly, right? So I want to give you guys some tips and tricks on how you can actually use your phone to get a really good headshot. First off, you want to make sure you get in front of a plain wall, and just get a friend, you know, or a family member to take the photo of you. Again, a plain wall is good, or even just a bright plain background. Outside will do. The lighting is always so great outside, typically, but you don't want the background to be too distracting, which is why everyone recommends a plain background. In terms of that background, you don't want to wear something that kind of blends into it, right? So if you decide to wear a yellow top, you don't want to take your picture in front of a yellow wall. Make sure you dress up, you know? Make sure you look nice. Ladies, throw a little make-up on. Some light jewelry, fellas, you know? Make sure you have a fresh cut. You know, those things that we all do to make ourselves feel good and look good. Now, some people will say "Make sure you wear solid colors." I typically love just bright colors and prints. So just wear something that is representative of you and your profession where you feel confident. You can kind of feel that confidence through the picture. Now, make sure that you smile, all right? Not just with your mouth, but smile with your eyes too. Make sure the lighting is bomb. Bright photos do pop more on LinkedIn. And make sure it actually looks like you. You know, ladies, we love to switch up our hair styles, but we usually all have that signature look, so you want to make sure that someone can actually recognize you from seeing your picture online versus actually seeing you in person. Just some other quick tips. You can always get some equipment, you know? They have those tripod stands. You can buy a backdrop. You can buy something for lighting. Amazon--Amazon is my best friend, so I'm always looking for things on Amazon. Check out Amazon for just some cheap equipment that will get the job done for you, especially if you don't have anyone to take the photo of you. So use an app like VSCO, or V-S-C-O. It's an app that's free, and it allows you to edit photos to make them look like they are professionally done. The iPhone portrait mode is fire, so don't be afraid to use the portrait mode. Now, kind of going back to the whole professional headshot thing or working with professional photographers. Again, that is your best route. Some professional events offer free headshots. For any college students, most career centers, they do offer free headshots to you. And honestly there's just a lot of dope photographers out there, so I would encourage you to look up some photographers and challenge yourself to actually get behind the camera and let someone take that hard work out for you. I do recommend getting new headshots on an annual basis. I have seen where people have headshots from 5, 10 years, 15 years ago, and it doesn't even look like you anymore. So, you know, really think about it. Invest in yourself. Again, having a good headshot will really enhance your professional brand. So that's all for today. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions, thoughts, comments, you can find me on IG and Twitter @Latesha_Byrd. That is L-A-T-E-S-H-A underscore Byrd, B-Y-R-D. Thanks for listening to The Link Up with Latesha. I am your host, Latesha Byrd. Until next time. And repeat after me. Selfies are not headshots.