We sit down with community leaders and social impact entrepreneurs Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport to learn about their work to achieve social justice, racial partnership and improve social and emotional intelligence.Learn about Project Curate TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Now listen, for Living Corporate these are the types of folks that we really enjoy talking to - social impact entrepreneurs, educators, folks actively involved in the corporate space in a diversity and inclusion perspective and ethnically diverse leaders within the corporate space, and today we have two special guests, Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport. Secunda and Jessica are activists, writers, public speakers, and social impact entrepreneurs dedicated to racial justice. Working with Project Curate, they seek to build social and intellectual communities that can address civic challenges and work towards intersectional justice. Welcome to the show, y'all. How are you doing?Secunda: We're good. Thank you for having us so much, Zach.Jessica: Glad to be here.Zach: Hey, no problem. Now look, for those of us who don't know y'all, can y'all tell us a little bit about yourself?Secunda: Well, yeah. My name is Secunda Joseph. I am from H-Town by the way of South Louisiana, [inaudible], and yeah, I am--I have been working in spaces that relate to, like, media, digital media, organizing and activism on the half of black life, and that's what I do. I'm a servant and a lover of my people, to sum it up.Jessica: And I'm Jessica. I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, but I've been in Houston for about eight years now and have really fell in love with the city. I am a full-time student, but in addition to that I also do work with an organization called Project Curate but also [inaudible], which does lots of work in the community around critical dialogue and creativity in the arts to push folks towards thinking about ideas of racial justice and building more transformative communities. Zach: That's amazing. So today we're gonna be talking about a particular program that will be coming really soon. So can you talk to us a little bit about the program, the title of it, what inspired it, all of that?Jessica: Sure. Secunda and I both work with an organization called Project Curate that has been hosting conversations here in the city around race, religion, and social justice. This semester we're gonna be starting a curriculum that we're offering to the community. We're asking folks to come out and join us over the course of several months--we'll meet once a month on Saturdays--to work through a book called Emergent Strategy. This book has really--a lot of us have read it, those folks who are really interested in building community and doing justice work, but this book is a little different than the usual kind of social justice how-to or the activist how-to. It's not a manual for how to do that. It actually asks folks to sort of stop and pause and ask themselves how they can shift their own practices, their own personal interactions, their own behaviors, do small-scale things in order to have big impacts, in order to shift the world. So that's what we're gonna be working through. The course is called Frequencies because what we're trying to do is to get people to think about how to create a kind of synergy, a relationship between other people, to think about their engagements with other people, to think about their relationships with themselves, and to think how those small-scale things, those small-scale relationships, can get us to think about how to build more transformative communities with one another. So we're asking folks to come out and join us once a month, and we can say a little bit more as we go throughout the show and share a little bit about how people can find more information, but that's kind of the gist of it, of what we're up to.Zach: That's really cool. Now who do you believe that this class is catered for? Who do you believe this class will help?Secunda: This class would help, you know, show [inaudible] towards folks who are in the corporate world, and, you know, when I think about the black and brown folks that walk into this space and how they--you know, sometimes you have to--you know, you come (on?) with a new face, put the things that you may be--the solutions, the systems, the understandings that you have, that you were taught sort of at home aside as you walk into this space, but I think this opportunity helps you to, like, think about ways that you can bring in creative solutions and build a new way to do things much better. I think that's [inaudible] for yourself and any organization. It's also for folks who are activists or organizers who are frankly wore out, you know? And they're tired of like, "Let me get 200 people in here, and maybe 50 of them will stand up, and we need 1,000 people at this rally," who are thinking very linear to get things accomplished, and a lot of times that really snatches the [inaudible] out of us. One of the things that I say, I tell people often, is that one of the things that this book does is it gives you a lot of examples of what--kind of what happens in nature. It talks about fractals and these small patterns that we consistently that really moves our world. So just, you know, it speaks to many people who really want to move (with?) the world and just need more intention on how to do that in a practical and a [inaudible] way.Zach: That's beautiful. And, you know, when you were talking about--as you both were talking about Frequencies and really the course itself and how it really focuses on being intentional with the little things, quote unquote, that you do and the people that you engage with, it kind of reminds me of a topic that we've discussed on the show around just being socially and emotionally intelligent, right? So being cognizant of who you are, being cognizant of your own emotions as well as how you're coming off and reading the social cues of others and just being intentional and purposeful with your time. So I believe there's a lot of relevance and intersection from that perspective as well. I'm curious now, who else would you say--when you kind of talked about Frequencies, you talked about Project Curate--who would you say that inspires this work for you all? Who would you say really, really is someone that you would point to and say, "Wow, this is why we do what we're doing."Jessica: You know, someone for me that came to mind is someone who was talked about a lot in this book that we're working through, and that's Octavia Butler, who was actually a writer, a novelist, and was a specialist in what people now know of as science fiction writing, believe it or not. So what I think what's really dope about Octavia Butler is what she asks us to do is imagine a world beyond the one that we see right now, and that that world that we want is actually possible. We can create that, that the structures that are in place now, that are unjust structures, those can be rethought, but it's--one way to go about that is to, you know, work for kind of large-scale change and to do the activist work and to hold up the signs, but another way to do it is to think about how to build community with one another, how to be in relationship with one another. And so when I think about her work and I think about her writing and I think about her thinking, she laid out a blueprint for us to think about how to do this in a way that is more holistic, more just to ourselves, because I think what we were recognizing is that a lot of folks who are in this fight for justice or a lot of folks who are trying to make a change on their jobs, whether that's in the corporate world or elsewhere, feel like they have to take on a lot and do a lot, and that's true. I mean, they do have to do that, but what would it mean for us to scale it back and think about these just--starting with your relationships, starting with the relationship with yourself, right, and making sure that you are doing justice to yourself. Those kind of questions will come into play, and when you say who inspires us, I think definitely Octavia Butler's writing is definitely a part of that.Secunda: And I also think of--and one of our team members brought this up about those folks who are excited about, you know, shifting our world or shifting our systems, and to--I think about folks who would have an opportunity to start off with a clean slate, right? So there are those of us who have been practicing in a way, you know, corporate tells you. You know, the way you learn in school, the way you learn to organize or do something just in a corporate structure, and then there are those who are just getting their feet wet, and they come in with a clean slate, and they have an opportunity to create something from a more holistic perspective, right? Instead of watching all this--you know, somebody like myself, there's a lot of things I had to unlearn, right, and put into practice, but a person who's new to this, our young people, our younger students who this is their first opportunity to do something, to ignite other people, right? To move themselves and the people around them and to really have the tools to do that in a way that is beneficial for themselves and the people around them. Like, it is--you know, it's like you look at a--in our organizing work, like, we move in a non-linear structure. Like, we are a (leadership-full?) group, and, you know, as we've done this coursework and as we've had these different conversations, we encourage that and we've, you know, taught that in a sense. I hate using the word teach, but we've created space for that. But this takes what we've done--it's like looking at a cell and then breaking it down to an atom. This takes what we've done and just breaks it down in a very easy to sort of easy to ingest--not easy to ingest. [laughs] Way. Yeah, you want to?Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. A lot of the conversation around, you know, how to--how to bring change, again, is we think--we think big, and we think large-scale, and we think how do we organize? This is kind of what (Sec?) said earlier. You know, "We need 100 people to come up in this space," or, you know, "If we want to make a change in the corporate world, we need, you know, 50 employees to help us to sign whatever petition," or whatever, but what this asks us to do is to kind of break that down on a smaller scale and say, "How do we engage--" Let's just start with how we engage with one another. How do we shift--how do we shift the culture of a place, right? How do we shift--yeah, how do we shift our engagements? How do we shift our thinking? It may not mean us meeting, you know, every Saturday to do some kind of direct action, but it can mean me agreeing with myself to say, "When I walk into this space, there's a particular type of energy that I want to bring into this space," or "When I engage with Secunda, I'm gonna make sure that--" You know, if I know that I have a very strong personality, I'm gonna step back and make sure that the way--if I want, you know, to have equality and equity in the world, well, maybe I need to figure out how to have equality and equity in my relationship with Secunda first, right? So that means I need to step back a little bit or think about the ways that I may take up all the air in the space in a room, and then think about how that can--those small-scale things can lead to a sort of cultural shift in how we engage with one another.Zach: This has been an incredible discussion, and I want to make sure, before we get too much further, that folks can know where they can learn more about the program. So would you mind sharing the information for that?Jessica: Yeah. They can go to Project Curate.org. That's our website, and they can go--there's a little Events link there that they can go and visit, and that has a list of our--of the curriculums that we're offering this semester. They will find Frequencies there, and they can register there on the site. Our kickoff is going to be Friday night, September 7th, and that's just gonna be a gathering for folks who have registered and who want to participate with us. We'll have a, you know, small kind of eat food, you know, kind of greet thing happening [inaudible], then kind of introduce everybody, and then our very first session, when we begin to get into the work, will be Saturday, September 22nd, and we'll have more information on the website about locations and that kind of thing.Zach: This is really cool, and so what I want to make sure is we'll have the information, Project Curate.org, that website, in our show notes so folks can direct from there, and then we'll make sure to encourage our folks to check it out, especially if they're in Houston, right? If they're in Houston to check it out and to engage with it. So it's really exciting. So before we go, any shout outs or parting words?Secunda: Parting words? Just thank you for having us on, and I just want to encourage people to just begin doing the move of just doing a little research on [inaudible] and some of the conversations that are available on [inaudible], and I think of where, like, you'll be really intrigued, if you're not able to attend the class, just to start the conversations at home with yourself.Jessica: Yeah, and I'll add--you know, what's a beautiful thing about this is all of the material that we're using is really written and produced by black women, and so it's a really beautiful thing to think about how this presents an opportunity for us to really, I don't know, mind the beauty that's there of our culture and what people are producing and the new [inaudible] that people are putting out, and so shout outs to all the black women who are doing innovative work out there, and we hope that this space will really encourage folks to sink deeper into the work that's there.Zach: Absolutely. I'm so excited and thankful that you guys were here, so thank you, thank you both. Excuse me, I said you guys. I should be more inclusive with my language. I'm so thankful that you both were able to join us, and I think when you talk about--when you talk about the community and the relationship aspect, that's so relevant for Corporate America because so often when we talk about inclusion and diversity or we talk about creating some type of change we talk about it at this high level, almost like top-down approach, where as really if it's a people-driven thing, then the focus should be the people, and it's not really ever going to--you're not really gonna see any major transformation organizationally, socially, politically, whatever domain you're operating in, until you're able to actually operate and start at a people--person-to-person perspective, and I think this course, and really Project Curate as a non-profit social impact organization, really reinforces that, and so I just want to thank you both again. And that does it for us on the show, so thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport, members of Project Curate. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, we discuss the practical importance of self-awareness with international coach, public speaker and entrepreneur, Tye Miles.Learn about Tye Miles here:https://www.tyemiles.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, yall? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to another B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that's right, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: There we go. That's what I'm talking about. Now, often times we have a special guest, and this episode is no different. We have Tyeisha Miles. Tyeisha is an international coach, public speaker, writer, and entrepreneur. Her company, The Inner Work, trains women, leaders, and service providers with a desire to make a greater impact ready to create their own success, know their worth, and craft realistic plans to achieve their goals so they can manifest their full potential with the fulfillment of serving others with their gifts. Tyeisha, Tye, welcome to the show. How are you?Tye: I am absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for having me speak to your tribe today. I'm really excited about this.Zach: Come on, now. My tribe? I like that language. Now, [laughs] today we're talking about social intelligence. So, you know, as I introduced you--you are a coach. How do you, as a coach, leverage social intelligence?Tye: Oh, my goodness. Social intelligence, it's incredible. It has such a huge impact on an individual's life, their personal success and their professional success cannot exceed their ability to really deal with this. As a coach, I leverage it in a way to either tap into their pain or their pride to get them to their desired results. For example--this is a very easy example that I think everybody can really get. I have a client right now who desires a physical transformation. She wants to lose weight. She's tried to lose weight. She's tried to lose weight several times in the past. And so with this social intelligence, I tap into her pride because--you know, I let her know, "You're not a quitter. You're loyal to yourself. You're competitive, and you're diligent. That's the reason you're here talking with me after you have tried XYZ in the past. You're still at it. You still want your goal, and so I used that by knowing her, you know, hearing her pain, I used that to help her get to her desired results.Zach: Can you talk to us a little bit about your story and how being able to effectively manage your own emotions while reading the emotions of others was so important for you?Tye: Absolutely. So a little bit about my story. I am a mother. I became a mother at the age of 16. Happily married for 17 years now. I have three incredible children, and I believe in being transparent. That's what makes me a (big?) coach, so I'm gonna be tastefully transparent here with you all today. [laughs] So I like to, like, draw a comparison 'cause I think people can really get it. For me, I grew up in the projects. Had my first baby at 16. I was sexually abused as a child by someone I trusted, and even sexually harassed on the job, and so I'm sharing those few things to kind of share, you know, my thinking before because of these experiences, and a lot of us in our adult life, you know, these things are showing up, you know, really blocking our success personally and professionally. So for instance, before I really understood what emotional and social intelligence is and how important, you know, that piece of the puzzle made in my life, me growing up in the projects, I had the mentality that I wasn't good enough, that I was always gonna be a part of the status quo. You know, me being sexually abused as a child, I had the understanding that I can't trust people, even the people that are closest to me because they're always looking out to serve themselves, you know? Being sexually harassed at work, it made me intimidated by men in authority. Being a teenaged mom, becoming a teenaged mom, I was a straight A student. I became known as the sneaky smart girl, and that made me, like, sort of over-correct for my past mistakes, always seeking the approval of others to a fault. And so all of these things show up in my adulthood. It wasn't really until about 7 years ago I was like, "Okay, I can't continue to live my life like this. What am I gonna do different?" Of course they showed up in different scenarios. So since taking the time to really understand and get to know myself, I've been able to first acknowledge where that mindset, that habit, that pattern of thinking came from and how it was showing up in my life. I had to acknowledge it, but then I also was able to say when these types of situations of happen, when I'm in the board room with a male, I know from my past usually it makes me intimidated and I take myself out the [inaudible], just letting men lead, but because I'm aware of how my past responses were due to that emotion, I'm able to intellectually change. I'm able to be aware of that and change and adjust my response, like, in real-time, based on what I know about myself. And so it's literally transformed my life. It's literally transformed my life, and it's so very important. I really believe that the most neglected relationship on earth is a person's relationship with their self. We do not take the time to get to know ourselves. We become adults who allow stuff to crowd out our lives, and we never come back to really understanding who we are. Zach: That's so--that's just so profound, right? And it's just so interesting, your point around the fact--you said the biggest relationship we don't develop or pour into is the one with ourselves, because [inaudible]--so I'm a consultant. There's people I meet every day and I work with, I'm like, "Are you not aware of the way that you're behaving?" Like, I'm not a psychologist, but it's like, "Are you--like, where are you right now? Why would you do that? Why would you say that in this context, in this particular scenario?" And it's--to me, it speaks to, to your point, a lack of just self-awareness, but when you say self-awareness I think of it in a much more just intentional and deeper way, self-awareness kind of being like okay, where are you in where you're standing and making sure you don't trip over something. Off the tails of what you were just speaking to, I'm talking about genuinely understanding and knowing yourself and how valuable that is and how you interact and engage with others, so that's just so profound. I'm curious, when you talk about, you know, your experiences and how you've transitioned into being a coach and a public speaker and an entrepreneur, what were some of the biggest challenges with that? Especially as a black woman. What are some of the things that you've had to navigate and manage through?Tye: I think the biggest things for me--two big things that just stand out the most to me. One, there is a lack of munity in our community. I'm sure it affects all of us, but we really, as black people and as black women in a category of our own, we tear ourselves down. We tear one another down. And the second thing, we have to learn how to honor differences. These are the two biggest challenges. How to get along with someone, how to come together collectively to fulfill and achieve an overall goal, and honoring differences. We can work together, although we do not think alike, you know? So for instance, I found that in my transition, interestingly, men allow me to come in. Men, male professionals, allow me to come in and own my awesomeness. They allow me to come in and be the bold, vibrant, energetic Tye doing her thing whenever I work a project, whereas I've found, as a black woman around black women, there is this sense of--this sense of heightened insecurities, or they feel threatened. I have a presence. I'm a 6 feet tall black woman, you know? I have short [inaudible] hair, and I'm very confident. I had to learn how to be very confident, and these things I've found--not all women, but a lot of women, they want me to dim my light. They want to keep me in this box because they don't want me to show them up, and that's not my intention to show them up, it's because of an insecurity. I strongly believe that, you know, as a coach, as I'm in my public speaking atmosphere, when I'm going into trainings, when I'm looking to collaborate and co-create with individuals, you know, we have to understand that it's--you know, we're only as strong as the weakest link and that when you surround yourselves with strong individuals, you yourself--you're pushed up as a strong individual yourself. It doesn't take away from who you are. It actually adds credibility and value to who you are, to your organization and what you're doing, and so, you know, those are the two biggest challenges, just really navigating--you know, how can I go in and not step on toes but reach the goal? You know, use what I have and take what they have to reach a common goal, and then just understanding how to have effective communication in a way that honors the differences, you know? We succeed and achieve what we set out to do.Zach: You know, what advice would you give younger professionals who are trying to navigate this corporate space as it pertains to social and emotional intelligence?Tye: Oh, gosh. This is so good. One, I believe and I have found that your dollar is in your difference, and what I mean by that--in a corporate space it can be highly competitive. There's several people that may be doing what you're doing, and so in that you need to master your craft, you know? Don't just go in being okay building your skill set to the status quo. No, go in and learn everything you can learn. Do the things that other people don't want to do. Don't always go in with the mindset of a paycheck. Go in with the mindset of "How can I best use what I'm learning through a certain experience to maximize my potential?" And then be authentic. Be yourself, you know? Like I said, the skill set--they can go get anyone to complete a role or to do a certain duty, to fulfill a task, but they can't get you. They can't get your personality. So the two of those alone, which to say is your dollar is in your difference. My dollar is in my difference. I defined that. I determined that by mastering my craft, taking what I do seriously, and being myself. And then the second thing I would say is just really to know your worth, independent of the opinion and approval of others. Know your worth. Don't allow what other people think about you--don't allow your title, their title, your money, the knowledge of their money, their description of their role, to make you feel any less. Know your worth independent of anything else, and then when you're able to do that, when you can just build your confidence to the place where it doesn't matter what another person thinks about you, your confidence is on 100, you become unstoppable. Confidence is attractive. It is a virtue that every young individual needs in the corporate climate. It's attractive. Naturally you're gonna be happier, naturally you're gonna get your job done easier. You're gonna be able to make friends while at work. You're gonna be able to get things done without rubbing people the wrong way unnecessarily. Zach: We talked about the fact that you're a coach and that you have a variety of clients and that, you know, you've been doing this for a couple of years. Now, where can people learn more about you?Tye: Absolutely. You can find me on social media - Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram at @thetyemiles, and I'll spell that out. T-H-E-T-Y-E-M-I-L-E-S. That's on all social media platforms, or you can just go over to my website at tyemiles.com. Zach: Awesome. Well, we'll make sure to put that in the show notes so that folks can engage that further. Now, this has been a great conversation. Before we wrap though, do you have any shout outs?Tye: I just want to send some love to you for having me on. Speaking to your tribe has been a pleasure. To my husband, who has been an absolute tremendous support through all of my different phases, and to my children. To my children. So thank you again for this amazing opportunity just to share my raw thoughts.Zach: This has been awesome. Now, look, guys. That does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so you can spare a dollar a month--I know you can, I hope you can--spare a dollar a month to support content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America. Show us some love. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Zach. You have been listening to Tyeisha Miles. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with full time day trader, Teri Ijeoma to talk about her journey and get her tips pertaining to building financial independence through investing.Learn About Teri here:https://investwithteri.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now yes--of course yes, we're late into the first season--we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow more lit--that's right, more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions with the hosts we have, extended monologues, or maybe just a chat with a special guest. Today we have another great special guest, Teri Ijeoma. Teri is an educator turned real estate agent turned NPO executive turned educator again turned real estate agent again turned full-time investor. That's a lot of switches. Today, Teri travels the world and invests from the comfort somewhere near the last postcard that you got.Teri: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Teri, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Teri: I'm great. How are you? Thanks for having me.Zach: Thank you for being here. So I know you love traveling. What are some of your favorite cities?Teri: Oh, man. I think my biggest surprises have been Seoul, South Korea. I thought Korea would be something totally different than it is, but it's just so beautiful. And then Tel Aviv is real. It's like a mix between Chicago and Miami. It's gorgeous. It's beautiful.Zach: That sounds incredible. So today we're talking about financial freedom. I know I set you up in your intro, but what does financial freedom mean to you? And what have you done to move closer to achieving it for yourself?Teri: Wonderful question. For me, financial freedom means not having a boss. My testimony is that I've worked so hard to help other people's dreams come true. I was always the first one in the office, the last one to leave, but then I realized, like, I was helping everyone else's dreams just get bigger, but not my own. And I'd have my own passions on the side, so I'd be doing real estate and helping other people on the side and investing on the side while I was spending most of my time helping other people's dreams come true. So for me, financial freedom is being able to have the money to do what you love when you want to, and that's why I started trading and investing, so that I could trade and travel. Zach: So speaking about investing, what would you say are some of the common misconceptions that are associated with being an investor or actively being engaged in active investing? What would you say are some of the common misconceptions?Teri: A lot of people feel like they're just not smart enough, like they have to be some math major or know numbers to be able to invest, but really you just need to be able to see companies that you like and see trends and go for it. Another big misconception is that you have to have a lot of money, but I think that you should learn the skill when you don't have money so that as you do get more income then you can learn how to make it multiply as it comes in. Those are probably the two biggest ones that I see a lot, people just being scared or thinking they don't have enough money to start.Zach: Okay. Now, I'm not trying to give your sauce away, right? But if you had to give three tips for how folks interested in investing should get started, what would they be?Teri: Of course I'd tell people to take my class because I think taking classes is important.Zach: Yes. [laughs]Teri: I've been trading eight years. In the first seven years,I can honestly say I was just trying to do it on my own and losing money. It wasn't until I took classes and went to school that it actually started--like, started growing and becoming something that I could truly live off of. So I think education is important. Another thing is pick good companies. A lot of people want to invest in penny stocks and things that aren't really that good of a company. You really make money when you invest in valued companies that can give you good returns, and we do have a class on that too, like, how to pick good companies. And then I think the next part is being able to protect your portfolio. I hear so many stories of people who blew up their accounts because they made this big investment that they thought would be the best thing, and then it went down and now they don't have any money left. So I think you need to learn how to protect your portfolio. Like, did you know you can actually put orders in that will get you out of a trade if it goes down? Like, you can automate that so that you can go to work and don't have to think about it. So I think being able to protect your portfolio is important too.Zach: Well, see, this is the thing about when it comes to investing for me. I'm pretty risk-averse when it comes to that space, and so for me I know that I would really benefit from going to some sort of class to formally learn because when I think about day trading, I think about investing, I think about, like, Wolf of Wall Street, or, you know, if I want to go old school, like, Trading Places. I think about, like, very volatile, risky activities, right? So, like, you know, my investments really center around my Roth IRA, my 401K and longer-terms (holes?) that I have, so I definitely believe when it comes to--when it comes to being a little more engaged in that space, I have plenty of--a ways to go, and I would actually venture that a lot of folks who are listening in have a ways to go as well. So, you know, where can people learn more about you? And if I wanted to learn from you about trading, how could I do that?Teri: Sure, great question. So we have a website called Invest With Teri. So investwithteri, T-E-R-I--and that's all one word--dot com. If you go to my website, you can put in your email address, and we'll send you updates of our new fall enrollment. We actually have online self-paced classes, and then for advanced students I have actually one-on-one coaching to help them invest. So I think that's a great place to start. And then just in your comment about, like, 401Ks, I think that's always great to invest in retirement, but a lot of those are only giving you, like, 2%-5% returns, where as the market last year was up 25%. So there was a lot of upside that you missed out on if you weren't actually looking at companies for yourself. So I think we just don't get taught that kind of stuff, and we should be. Zach: No, I absolutely--I agree, and I think, to your point, we don't think about that, right? We're like, "Okay, look. We got this job. Let's just hold on to what we have." We're not necessarily trying to put ourselves out there and really over-extend or expose ourselves more than we feel like we need to, but to your point earlier when you were talking about financial freedom and really being in a position to not have to work for somebody else, what you're talking about speaks to a certain level of intentionality, right? And effort, because it's easy, right--again, I have a 401K and I have a Roth IRA. I'm not shaming people who are in that bucket who are like, "I'm just gonna invest in these spaces." It's just that to really get to that next level of financial independence it's gonna take a certain level of intentionality on an individual level, right?Teri: Exactly, exactly.Zach: So this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words of wisdom?Teri: Thank you so much for letting me come on the show. I just help people to take risks. Like, you won't be able to get to a higher level if you never take risks. So invest. Like, invest in anything, just something. Take a risk, and you'll do better.Zach: [laughs] This has been great. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna make sure that we have all of your information in the show notes, and we'll shout you out to make sure folks sign up. Guys, people, if you're listening to this, make sure you at least give Teri's info a look. She has great resources, great information, and I am positive that you will be happy with what you see, okay? So that does it for us. Thank you for listening and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Teri Ijeoma. Peace. [winding down sound effect]Zach: Yay. [laughs] Teri: [laughs]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We break from our normal formatted shows to share our feelings on the killing of Botham Jean by police.Information on the killing of Botham JeanBotham Jean Go-Fund-MeCampaign ZeroTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach.Latricia: And this is Latricia.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. We've said it a few times before, but I want to reiterate - Living Corporate is not a current events podcast. Our content has been consistently evergreen, however that isn't the goal to itself, right? Like, we started Living Corporate to have authentic, courageous discussions around topics that explore the perspectives of folks that are often ignored in the workplace. So we're gonna break from our typical format and talk about Botham Jean, but at a larger level, black death at the hands of police, the effect it has on black observers--particularly those in the workplace--and what companies at large can do, and what professionals can do, and not do, to promote empathy and allyship. Latricia, can you talk about how you felt when you heard the news of Botham Jean?Latricia: Yeah, it was really tough. It's been a day now, and I'm still processing everything. But yeah, it was a normal Friday for me. Woke up, got on client calls, different meetings, and I didn't really have enough time to open my phone and check Instagram 'cause I was so busy that morning, and then maybe around noon I check Instagram and I see very--it seemed like a very familiar face all over my IG, and I'm kind of confused as to what's going on, and I read the story, I see that another black man has been shot down by the police, and it's someone basically in my own backyard. We live in the same city. We're actually previous coworkers, and it was just unbelievable. I just remember the articles over and over again and hoping, you know, maybe he was shot but he's not dead because I just could not--I just couldn't believe it. It was tough, and I will--I wasn't able to focus at work at all. I just shut down. And, you know, I know I had, like, different things that I needed to get done for the day, but in that moment I was just like, "I can't." Like, I'm sitting here, like, trying to work, but I'm still on Instagram, still--you know, I have the TV on, I'm watching the news, I'm--you know, I have different people reaching out to me, and I just couldn't focus, and so that day I just had to shut down early, yesterday. How about you, Zach? How'd you feel when you heard the news?Zach: Yeah. So--so at first I just--like, I saw it because--I was in the middle of my work day, so I saw it, and it didn't--it didn't resonate to me as to what was going on, right? So I was like, "Okay, what is this? So you're saying he was in his apartment, and he opened up the door and he was killed in his own apartment by the police?" And there was--like, for me, my initial feeling was just complete just--again, just--I don't--I don't want to say shocked, but I--somehow I was shocked, I guess because as many times as we've seen this happen before, this one seemed to be just so, if somehow possible, even more egregious and indefensible than all these others indefensible moments, right? This man was just exi--looking at the story, it's like he was just existing in his home. He opens the door and he was murdered, and for me it--then I went from being, like, just shocked and confused to being, like, angry because of the way that the story is being shared, which is "So a police officer thought it was their apartment and then shot the person who opened the door because they thought it was an intruder?" And it's like--it's like, look, I try not to be overly arrogant, but, like, don't insult my intelligence. That statement in itself doesn't even make any sense. Like, that's the--I'm calling shenanigans on that. That's ridiculous. So then--so then it went from just disbelief, shock, to anger, to then just mournful, right? And, you know, all these deaths are close to home. You know, they could be my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my friends. They could be you. They could be me. And I know we've talked about this on the mental wellness episode, but this one was jarring because our profiles are so similar. Black man. Minister. Super close to his mom, and he's in consulting. And, you know, I had to step away and just allow myself a few tears before I kind of got back to work 'cause I was working with others, and, you know, other people, they heard about the news and it was kind of like, "Oh. Hm, okay," but, you know, on my flight back home, you know, I had a window seat, and man, I just put on some music and I wept. I wept. I cried really hard. You know, Latricia, you and I, we exchanged a lot of text messages about this. You know, do you feel as if you have the emotional liberty to, like, mourn these things at work?Latricia: Yeah. It's interesting because we were in two different settings when this happened, right? You were actually physically in the workplace around other people. Every Friday I work from home, and so like you did on your flight back home, I wept. I cried and cried, and the tears just came out, you know, here and there. And, you know, being in my own home, right, I can do that. I have this space. I feel like I'm protected in my own home to do those types of things, but to be honest with you, no. I feel like when I'm in the workplace I just have to work through it, and it sucks because I don't feel like it's a reason--I don't feel like it's reasonable to other people when I mention things like this and how it affects me mentally. Even yesterday, you know, I contemplated over and over again, like, "Do I tell a coworker how I'm feeling right now?" And if I do that, you know, will they think--will, like, they understand where I'm coming from? Will this be a valid reason to grieve in their mind? But surprisingly I did--you know, I've learned to be a lot more open. I think the Living Corporate podcast has helped me build up a lot more courage to speak about some of these things, and I did have a conversation with some coworkers on Friday, and I let them know, like, "Hey, I don't know if you saw this in the news, but it's really bothering me," and, you know, we exchanged a couple of text messages, and they were very understanding, and so, I mean, I was very fortunate that, you know, I'm really close with my coworkers and they tend to be open-minded people, but it was difficult, right? It's just not natural for me to have those types of conversations with my coworkers.Zach: Yeah. No, I feel the same way, and so, you know, multiple studies have shown that witnessing death or hearing about the death of black people can produce PTSD-like symptoms for black people. So to your point, like, consider feeling like that, but everyone around you who doesn't look like you is just continuing on like life is normal, right? So emotionally, like, you're on an island, and you feel stuck. You're confused. You're mad. You may be scared, and you're ignored, right? So it's like I already feel--I already feel like this. So then compounded by respectability politics, and to your point around, like, feeling as if, you know, I won't be seen as reasonable, or I may be seen as out of control or just emotionally unstable, which then could affect my financial well-being, you know? It's just--you feel even more isolated, and I guess for me historically that's always been the case. Like, so starting from, like, Trayvon Martin, which I recognize was a police-involved murder of a black person, but Mike Brown, right? So every--each one of these situations. If there's ever a situation where a black person was killed on camera by the state, you know, I would have coworkers--never once has anyone been like--one, just keep your opinions to yourself. There's always some type of opinion being shared, and it's always, it's consistently been "Well, we need to know all the facts." "Well, you know, it seems as if they had a criminal record," and, you know, "It seems as if though they should've just been complying." And so I'm in the middle of hearing all of this. I am a black person. I'm hearing my coworkers--who I'm gonna have to work with, and my job, my livelihood, is built upon and dependent upon me working with them--hear them make these statements. Meanwhile, I'm mourning, right? And so it's just tough. Like, you just feel stuck.Latricia: Yeah, it is. It's so interesting some of the different things that you bring up, like respectability politics and how they always insert themselves into situations like this, and they're often used to completely reject the validity behind some of our concerns around police brutality. And it's even tough for me to say this, but this situation with Botham Jean is very interesting because we know that he worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers. That's literally in almost every single headline in the news. He was extremely intelligent, went to, you know, Harding University, recognized by chancellors and, you know, obviously very smart if you work at a very competitive firm. And so now it's kind of interesting, right? Like, I feel like a lot more people are kind of engaging in the conversation. Granted we don't know all the facts, and I've still heard the "we don't know all the facts" commentary, but it's interesting though, Zach. Like, I don't know if you--I don't know if this is gonna be what wakes people up, and if it is it's unfortunate that, you know, this is what it takes - more black men dying, more black women dying, but I feel like a lot more people are starting to somewhat engage in this conversation, a lot more people that don't look like us. Zach: Yeah, no. And to be clear, right, like, there'd be--there are times when I've talked to people, you know, who don't care about black and brown folks dying at the hands of police, and I've told them in confidence--I say--and it's always professional, but it's very direct, and I say, "Look, recognize that you have--you have coworkers that look like the people that are being killed in the media, so there should be a level of empathy from you because it could easily be a coworker," and to your point about the fact that you used to work at this company, he was a coworker to thousands of people, to so many people, and regardless of--regardless of the fact that if he wasn't intelligent, which he was, if he wasn't a minister--and everyone is saying he was a community servant and of course very engaged and loving with his family. If he was none of those things, he was still a human being. But it compounds the fact that he was someone--he was someone on this earth that was, quote unquote, doing the right thing, simply existing, and now he's gone. And so now people are hopefully, to your point, paying attention and having these discussions, but it goes beyond just having discussions about it after the fact. It's about being present and empathetic and aware, generally speaking, just, like, every day. And, you know, what's gonna frustrate me but I'm sure it's gonna be part of the narrative is "Oh, he was one of the good ones." It's like, "Look, all of these people are human beings, and none of these people deserved to die." It's frustrating that people have to--like, stuff has to be brought to your front door before you can empathize. And, like, he shouldn't have--he shouldn't have been murdered senselessly liked this for people to open their eyes. There's been fifty-'leven deaths of black people. I mean, we'll talk about this later in the show, but we're gonna--we'll point you to resources and research that shows the amount of death and trauma that black folks have been going through by the hands--at the hands of police, right? And, like, this is not new. I'm just--and I'm frustrated. Like, you know, this might be the only show where everyone's really hearing me, like, genuinely upset. Right? Like, I'm hurt. Let's keep it going. So I known that we've come together, and we have a list of some things that we wanted to talk about, so why don't you go ahead and talk about that, Latricia?Latricia: Yeah. So, you know, what can we do when it comes to how we address these things in the workplace? We don't have all the answers. You know, I brainstorm about these things all the time, and I think from, you know, the C-Suite level, you know, what can we do? These corporations have so much power and influence and, you know, the list is so long, but I still get stuck. Like, I start to think about, you know, coalitions that can be built and, you know, voting and things like that, but then I just wonder, like, how is this really gonna impact the day-to-day experiences of black and brown people? And so I thought about it, and I was like, "Okay, well, let's just--" I thought about it and I said, "Let's just scale this back a bit and look at this at a more micro level. What can we do in the workplace as coworkers to address situations like this when they come up?" And unfortunately it's happening way too often, and so Zach and I were kind of thinking about it, and there's three things that, you know, we think are really important to remember at times like this. One is to not ignore pain. And so we talked about our pain throughout this episode. We've both been very open and honest about how this has affected us, you know? It's been 48 hours now, and it's important to be able to grieve, right? It's a human response to tragedy, and so when it comes to, you know, being able to mourn or grieve, you do need the support from your coworkers. One thing that we talked about on a past episode related to mental wellness when I interviewed Dr. Tobi Odunsi was the concept of calling in black, you know? It may sound funny, but it's real. If you need to tell your manager or your coworker or, you know, staff that you manage that you need time to grieve in a situation like this, allow yourself that time. Don't--you know, be reason--I mean, obviously, you know, if you have things that have to get done, you know, figure out a plan to get it done, or if you don't have the time to figure out a plan don't, you know? Take the time out for yourself to grieve and, you know, as a coworker it's important to be understanding when someone needs that time. Zach: So two is empathy, and so--you know, empathy means putting yourself in that person's shoes, but, like, let me just be really frank, right, about, like, just a practical definition of empathy. When a black person is dealing with, or you know that--you can tell. You ask them or they bring it up or if you see something in the news of someone dying at the hands of police and they happen to be a black person, just pause and imagine if that person was white, right? So how would you feel if that person was white? Okay. So then those feelings, just apply them to that situation and then you have empathy, right? So empathy is regarding someone else's situation as your own. Empathy is imagining and positioning yourself to think about that situation practically affecting you. I think it's just so easy. I remember--during the Ferguson protests, I remember--I was at work. I just remember coworkers being like, "Okay, yeah, we get it. He died. Okay, we get it. All right." Like, "What's the big deal? People die every day," or "They're going about it the wrong way," or whatever. And even more recently the kneeling, the protests against systemic injustice and police brutality and systemic racism, right? People talking about "That's just the wrong way to do it," "That's the wrong platform," "This is disrespectful," "I don't understand what they're talking about," "The real issue is black-on-black crime," and whatever else other talking points you want to have. Like, just imagine that it was a white person going through whatever it is that that black person is going through. Just put a white person--just replace the black person with a white person. We know that empathy exists. Like, I've seen people practice empathy with others. I've seen it. There was a situation when, like, that kid was bullied. He was bullied, and he was, like, an elementary school kid. He was bullied, and they raised like a hundred something thousand dollars for that kid, right? Because he was being bullied, and it was--so they decided to empathize by supporting that child and family financially, right? So it's not as if we can't empathize, it's about making a choice to empathize by viewing that person as equal to you and a part of your community, and I do believe that we're more similar than we are different.Latricia: And the third thing is to be authentic during situations like this. So this really does piggyback off of showing that empathy, and I can give an example of authenticity. So the great thing that I really do enjoy about my job is the opportunity to travel. It can suck sometimes with personal life, but it has afforded me the opportunity to meet people from all walks of life, and so a young Nigerian girl from Dallas, Texas, is not as likely to come across, you know, a 40-year-old Egyptian man from Boston, Massachusetts and call him her friend. I've had that opportunity to meet all different types of people, and I was really surprised on Friday when multiple coworkers reached out to me just to check on me and see how I was doing, and none of them were black. They were different races, different sexualities, different age groups, young and older, and I really did appreciate that, and I appreciated it because they were being authentic. I know for some people they may feel like, you know, a black person dies and so you have to text the only black person you know or you have to text the first black person you can think of. And, you know, that can make some people uncomfortable, and I completely understand that, and I've felt uncomfortable in situations like that before as well, but when I know it's authentic and it's coming from a true place of just, you know, someone caring and someone trying to be understanding and making sure that I'm doing okay, that really makes this job so much better. I think, you know, as Corporate America becomes more and more diverse, we have the opportunity to get to know more people on an authentic level, not just, you know, as your coworker who you manage or they manage you, but just a person and as people. So I will say, like, that really did help me cope yesterday when I received all of those heartwarming messages from my coworkers, and like I said before, it really does help.Zach: I mean, 'cause in these moments--and I think--what I really think that people don't recognize is that in these moments when--when you kill someone, when you murder somebody, you're making a statement about your position on their humanity. And so when someone is killed, someone is murdered, someone dies at the hand of someone else, especially when they did nothing wrong, and it's ignored or there's some kind of, like, off-handed, back-handed comment made about it, whether you recognize it or not, you're dehumanizing that person who died and, to a certain extent, you're dehumanizing yourself because we're all supposed to be a part of the same community, right? Like, the colorblind people or all these folks. Like, there's only one race, the human race. Okay, so then if there's only one race, the human race, how can you be so dismissive of someone else's pain? How can you not empathize? And how can you not practice authenticity here? They're a human being. And so I know for me, to your point, like, I had a couple of friends--I had some white colleagues and friends who reached out to me as well, and those moments mean a lot for me as well because there's so many times in those situations where I just want to--I just want someone just to encourage me and the fact that I'm a--I'm a human being. If you go back and you look at the civil rights protests, men were walking around with signs that just said, "I am a man." Like, "I'm a man." That was the statement, and I think that it's easy if you're in the majority class to dismiss or undervalue how powerful it is just for someone to acknowledge and affirm your humanity, but it goes so far. It goes so far. Living Corporate, we exist to push against systems and norms that were not created with people of color in mind, and so while I don't know--and Latricia, we don't know, like, the perfect answer here. I do know that voting to change laws and measures of accountability is an actionable step. Latricia: Yep. I totally agree, and I know voting can be intimidating when we start to talk about voting at a more local level, but there are a lot of really great resources out there that can help you to stay informed and stay engaged in the voting system.Zach: Yeah, and so let's do this before we wrap up. We want to point folks to resources to mobilize them for action, so one of my favorites and the one that we're gonna be linking in this show is JoinCampaignZero.org. So they're all about ending police brutality of black and brown people in America. It's not rhetoric though. Like, they have resources and tools to help you engage critically and civically to let your voice be heard. So we all have that information in the show notes. Latricia, before we go, any other thoughts?Latricia: I'm just glad that we used this space to have this conversation. That's really why we created Living Corporate, and as Zach mentioned, this is not our typical format for the show, and we just really wanted to have this--take this time out to just express how we feel, and we hope that everyone that's listening is encouraged to be more open about these conversations. If we just keep it all within ourselves and we don't allow ourselves to have those conversations, then we're not gonna be able to push forward.Zach: Absolutely. And that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Latricia: And this is Latricia.Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with facilitator, instructional designer, meeting host and leadership consultant David Foster of Capgemini to talk about the importance of social and emotional intelligence.David's LinkedInTRANSCRIPTAde: “EQ is our ability to manage ourselves and our emotions. In the workplace, this means acting and reacting to events appropriately, such as maintaining your composer and ability to perform under pressure. However, as important as EQ is, it is also necessary but not sufficient for success. Confidence in navigating the workplace culture, high SQ, is the major obstacle for women and minorities. Culture is largely shaped by the dominant group, which for most workplaces is straight white men. This is not a conspiracy or a plot. We all tend to befriend people who are similar to us or with whom we have the most common. We take work breaks with our buddy. We grab a quick lunch with our friend. Women do this. Minorities do this. Straight white men do this. For the latter group however, this often results in power begetting power. Women and minorities in particular need to have high SQs. They need to be perceptive, vigilant, and deliberate in how they navigate the workplace culture. Not being automatically part of the workplace power club is a given for women and minorities. We can bemoan that fact, or we can take action. Taking offense or feeling hurt keeps us stuck. Successfully navigating the workplace culture--demonstrating high SQ--is the key to career growth and success.” The excerpt I just read from Smart Is Not Enough: Why Social Intelligence (SQ) may be the key to career success for women and minorities by Phyllis Levinson challenges what being good enough looks like in the working world, and social and emotional intelligences are the secret sauces to climbing the corporate ladder. How do people groups with lesser social capital and access thrive in these highly competitive spaces? This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. So today we're talking about social and emotional intelligence.Zach: Yeah. So I know you gave the definitions in your intro, but when I think of definitions for these terms, I think of it as emotional intelligence being your ability to understand and manage yourself where as social intelligence is your ability to understand and manage the relationships around you. Ade: That's about right. And I think it's interesting because I would argue that by the nature of black and brown folks being the minority, minorities in the workplace have some of the highest emotional intelligence, right? I mean, I know I'm always thinking about how I'm going to come across, how to speak, how to phrase my questions both in email and in person, and, you know, not live up or down to some stereotypes and come across as angry. And I'd say that's pretty common. I think that code-switching speaks to this phenomenon the most. The fact that we change our voices with the hopes of being accepted and making others feel more comfortable with us speaks to a certain level of emotional intelligence, no?Zach: No, I absolutely agree. And look, I don't think we're saying that minorities don't need help in better developing and honing their emotional intelligence, but it is me saying that you don't often see minorities in the corporate workplace with emotional, like, outbursts. In your experience, how many times have you seen someone that was not white just completely lose control at work, Ade?Ade: Never, and I definitely get your point. Your point is well-taken, but to me the social intelligence part is a huge hurdle. So the article you referenced earlier is interesting because I posit that if power resides with the majority group and people of color don't heavily engage with the majority--like you were saying, people tend to associate with people who are most like them--how do we learn how to navigate those spaces?Zach: It kind of--it actually kind of throws the whole idea or the term of social intelligence into question, right? Because it's not particularly an issue of mental capacity or capability as it is access. Like, I don't know how to manage this particular relationship in the workplace, not because I'm inept but because I don't have access to these relationships in the same ways as folks who don't look like me are. I mean, am I--am I tripping? Am I onto something?Ade: I do think you're onto something. It reminds me of our very first episode with Fenorris when he was talking about the white executive giving him the real talk in that plane, which by the way, side note, I know y'all have been rocking with us for a while, but if you haven't listened to our very first episode with Fenorris Pearson you definitely should go give it a listen. Back to reality. Fenorris was saying that it is essentially obvious when his black colleagues were trying to mimic behavior and mimic a culture that isn't necessarily theirs, and it built more distrust than not ironically. You might also remember this conversation about authenticity in our episode with Janet Pope essentially saying that people who find themselves in the minority, particularly folks of color, often put on personas that we believe mirrors that of the majority when in actuality the people around us who we're trying to mirror don't recognize themselves and they recognize that lack of authenticity.Zach: Right, and that's not really our fault. Like I said before, we don't have access because historically we haven't been allowed access. We're just now really engaging in these spaces [inaudible]. It's only been what, like, 50 years since the last civil rights bill was passed? So it's been, like, a pretty short line. The point is because of the way that Corporate America is set up, we have to have skills that extend beyond the X's and O's. It's not just critical for our growth, it's really needed for our corporate survival.Ade: Right. And you know, it would be great if we could at some point, I mean, over the course of this season, be able to speak to someone who is a bit of a subject matter expert on social and emotional intelligence. Maybe someone with outstanding communication, conflict resolution and interpersonal skills, and I would feel really comfortable, even more comfortable, maybe if they had maybe 20 years of experience as an instructional designer, a corporate facilitator and [inaudible]. And just to put some nice little icing on top, if they were actually responsible for the coaching and professional development of executives for an international consulting firm, I might just faint.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest David Foster?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, you know what it is. Put 'em right there. Let's go. Ade: That's never gonna fail to make me laugh. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Mr. David Foster. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said, we have David Foster on the show. David, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?David: Hey. I'm doing great, Zach. Thanks for inviting me. A real pleasure.Zach: Absolutely, man. So look, as you know, today we're talking about the importance of emotional intelligence in the workplace. Can you talk to us about what emotional intelligence is and how it comes into play with how you do your job?David: Yeah. So a couple things, you know? I work as a facilitator in Capgemini's Accelerated Solutions Environment. You know, despite the fact that we're a technology company we're really in the people business, and, you know, what we specialize in in the ASE is helping people getting aligned really quickly, helping them making decisions, and helping them come up with really innovative solutions to really wicked, challenging problems, and that's not something that you can do without having a high degree of emotional intelligence. You know, as a facilitator I'm typically at the front of the room, and for me it's not really about presenting myself as an expert as much as it is shepherding people through our process. So emotional intelligence for me is something that I have to pay real close attention to. You know, when I think about it, there are a couple of pieces to emotional intelligence. You've got the idea of just perceiving emotions, and so for me, you know, when I'm in front of an audience or a client group, it's about trying to understand where they are emotionally. And a lot of times we're dealing with really charged topics, so understanding what position they are on that rollercoaster is really important, you know? And that's the other part of it is, like, understanding emotions. So you can perceive them and you can feel them, but you have to be able to interpret them a little bit, a lot of bit, you know? That helps you decide what questions you need to ask or helps you decide how you might shift the focus of a session or how you might even capitalize on the emotions that you're perceiving. You know, for me and my position, it's about managing that emotion sometimes, and I'm speaking not only about the client and about the audience, but I'm speaking about myself as a facilitator. Look, we're all human. You know that, Zach. Right? Like, we're all human beings, and when you're standing up in front of a group or even if it's one-on-one, the emotion that comes off of someone or someones, you feel that, right? And so sometimes it's about not only managing the emotion that's coming from folks--maybe it's questioning, you know, the origin of it or where it's coming from, but it's also understanding what it's doing to you, you know? Because it can certainly either trigger your emotions--it might put you in a position where you end up feeling some emotions, you know, based on empathy with a group, but managing those emotions is key. And then it's really about using emotions. So if I think about those four things, like perceiving, understanding, managing and then using--and when I say using, it's not--you're not trying to take advantage of folks in terms of using emotion, but you're looking at and perceiving those emotions, understanding them and trying to figure out, "Okay, how best can we tap into this to help us achieve our goals?" So if there's energy and intent to do something, you know, how do we make sure that we put people in the position so that they can do that? Emotional intelligence is essential, you know? And it's not just in my role. I think it's in every role in our corporate environment, you know? Because like I said, we're a people business, and people have emotions, you know? We are emotional, sentient beings, and so if you think that just your IQ is enough, I think you're sadly mistaken. So that's--in a nutshell, I think, you know, the synopsis of how I think about EQ and how I think about emotional intelligence and it impacts me when it comes to how I do my job as a facilitator. Now, I can extend that even further, you know? There are lots of touch points where I'm not only interacting with colleagues or I'm interacting with clients in different ways, you know? And emotional intelligence extends beyond just when you're in front of the room. It has to do with your interpersonal relationships in terms of how you work with others, you know, how you contribute to a team and how you ultimately can add value to an organization, so.Zach: See, that's so intriguing. So have you had any situations--rather, have you had any situations where you've seen business relationships completely be broken by a lack of emotional intelligence? And if so, would you mind sharing a story?David: Yeah. You know what? Broken is, like, the end, but I think there's a continuum. If you're not keen on or at least focused on emotional intelligence, you can fracture relationships, you can damage relationships. So there's a whole lot that you can do outside of just breaking them. I just did a session this weekend that's really interesting. The guy that was one of the main sponsors of our session, the CIO, you know, he's taken the DiSC profile, and I have my own opinions about assessments. I think they're all information, you know? I don't know if that truly defines who you are and how you are as much as it just gives you information to help you decide how you might proceed in terms of your relationships or in terms of your preferences. And this guy, you know, he had taken the DiSC profile, and so he characterizes himself as a driver, you know? "I'm just a high D. I'm a high D." And it's almost like he uses that as his lead into any sort of conversation, you know? Not to mention that he's also a lawyer by trade, you know? And he's got a penchant for, you know, winning arguments no matter the cost, and he has a penchant for arguing and driving people very, very hard no matter the cost. So here we are in this ASE session, and, you know, the way we work is we have large-group stuff and then we get into breakouts, and I always talk to my sponsors about, you know, when you get into these breakouts you want your people to do the work, and you want to almost sit back, and you want to ask more questions than give more answers, and you don't want to stand up and pontificate. Well, he took this opportunity--they were sharing some information about a particular work stream, and he took this opportunity in front of, you know, a small group of folks to run up one side of this person and down the other, basically asking a lot of pointed questions, creating an argument, trying to win an argument about why certain work hadn't been done, right? And what I saw happen was not only did that change the tone and the tenor of the breakout, but it also changed the tone and tenor of their relationship for the rest of the session, where this person who had been on the receiving end of these very pointed and very argumentative sort of interjections, you know, almost shut down, right? And you don't want to do that, and I think about that, specifically in the session seeing that, but I was wondering, "Man, what is it like every day to work with this person if that's what you have to deal with?" And I actually pulled her aside to check on her and said, you know, "Are you doing okay?" And she said, "That's my everyday." And so when you think about that--you know, here you have this leader who is, you know, putting out front the idea that because "I'm a D, because I'm a high driver, I almost don't have to pay attention to how or what I do and how or what I say impacts the folks that I'm saying it to," because he can hold that shield up in front. And like I said, those assessments and those types of things are really only information, and the fact that he took that opportunity to basically confront this person, you know, not really understanding--well, it's not even not that--he understood what we were doing, but not being sensitive enough or being aware enough to know, you know, what those actions could possibly do to that person within our session. You know, that indicated a pretty severe lack of emotional intelligence. Now, whether or not he's able to repair that relationship I think is up to him. You know, Zach, I've got--and we've talked before about leadership, and we've talked before about, you know, how to lead and different styles of leadership, and I think EQ is, like, a really important arrow in the quiver. It's just one thing, you know? And having a high degree of emotional intelligence allows you to not only be self-aware, but it also allows you to be flexible, right? If you're--if you're focused not only on the things that are triggers for you, your own emotions, you know, that's part of it. You have to pay attention to the other emotions, and you almost have to--you have to be flexible, and you have to be able to adapt your approach, and you have to be able to adapt how you communicate based on the emotions of the other folk in the room, you know? Not just yours, but others, and it was obviously--it was a pretty charged conversation. He had some things he wanted to get out, but there's a way of communicating that so that you don't, like you said, break or damage your relationship. And just to extend the story further, you know, I had a confrontation with him. He wanted to--we have this thing in the ASE called proposals where, you know, people put proposals in front of a group of judges to--you know, what does the way forward look like? Take your best shot, right? So we have--we have the judges, and, you know, he wanted to be a judge, and I told him--I said, "I don't know if that's a good idea." I said, "Based on your closeness to the problem, based on your position in the organization, and based on what I observed," you know, based on how his interactions could change the tone and tenor of conversations, I advised him against it. And he didn't push too hard on that, and he said, "Well, how do the judges work?" I said, "Well, they develop criteria," and he said, "I want to be part of that conversation." And I stopped him and I said, you know, "What's your interest?" Right? And he said, "I want to make sure that my opinions are represented," and I proceeded to lay it out for him. I said, "Look, you know, ASE sessions are a chance for you to let the people in the room own the work, and it's a great chance for leaders to watch their people work. You know, you've got some smart folks here, you know? And you almost have to trust that they're gonna come up with the right criteria," et cetera, et cetera, and Zach, we went back and forth.Zach: Really?David: And talk about emotional intelligence. You know, at that point I have to know what my triggers are, right? So I could've gotten into this back-and-forth argument, but I have to remember my role. My role is a facilitator, right? I can't really hold a position. And I told him that. I said, "I'm not gonna hold a position. As a matter of fact, I'm not gonna argue with you." I said, "I've laid out the risks. I've told you what could happen if you involve yourself in this conversation. Ultimately it's up to you to make the choice, and I'm not gonna stand in your way, but you can't come back to me and look at me and say, "That didn't go the way I thought it would," because I cautioned you and I warned you," and I said, "I'm basically done arguing with you because it's obvious that you want to win this argument. So, you know, if you want to be part of this criteria development, have at it." And so we walked away from each other. Relationship wasn't broken. You know, still respected me as a facilitator, and as we're getting back into the main space--'cause we were pulling people together to get them ready to do this assignment--he stops me and he says, "You know, I've changed my mind. I'm not gonna be part of it." I said, "Okay," and so I proceeded to set up the assignment, send people out, and then I found him and I said, "Would you mind telling me what changed your mind?" And he said it was ego. He said, "That conversation between you and I was all about ego," and he said, "I have to be better about managing my emotions, and I have to be better about managing my ego, and sometimes I need to exercise a bit more humility." And he actually went back to the other conversation. He said, "You know, I had a situation where I went at somebody on my team pretty hard, and that wasn't a good thing. And I did the same thing to you, and that wasn't a good thing." So in that small little microcosm you had somebody who was on the one end, you know, really not aware. Like, self--maybe self-aware, you know, using the DiSC assessment as his form of awareness, but not aware of how he was behaving would impact others, right? Really not understanding the emotions that he was generating based on how he was interacting, and he actually--the pendulum actually swung for him, you know? So I don't know when it happened, how it happened. I don't know if I had anything to do with it. You know, maybe it was just the switch flipped, and he was--you know, all of a sudden he had the ability to say, "You know what? I really need to take a step back and look at how my behavior and how I'm managing my emotions and how I'm using my emotions is actually impacting others," you know? And I think that's an important point, and I'm sorry to just prattle on, but, you know, emotional intelligence is a skill. It's something that you can develop. It's something that you can learn, and a lot of times one of the ways we learn is by reflecting, self-reflection, on the situations that we've been presented with, how we've responded, how we've behaved, and how we might change or how we might do things differently.Zach: As you know, our show focuses on people of color in the workplace, like their experiences and perspectives and really having authentic discussions around that idea and around that identity. So I would posit minorities have more pressure to be self-aware by the nature of them just being minorities, by the nature of them being--David: [inaudible].Zach: Right? The smallest group in the space. There's pressure, or there's an expectation that we just need to be more self-aware. So what advice would you give to a people group who's already aware that they are the minority when it comes to growing and developing emotional intelligence?David: Yeah. You know what? We could--how much time do we have? Man, [laughs] because--so I think about that a lot, and maybe some historic context here. This idea that we, because we have been so excluded as people of color from institutions of--I mean, call it whatever. Learning. Institutions of earning. You know, social institutions. We've always been in positions where we've had to extend the olive branch, or if I think about the middle ground, we're always crossing that middle ground, do you know what I mean? Like, we're always expected to reach further and reach farther because these institutions have been established before us, and they weren't designed with us in mind, right? And it's--you know, if we want entry into them, you know, we're the ones that have to make the choices and decisions about how to interact with people. It's almost like we have to present ourselves in ways that make it okay for people to accept us, right? Which is an emotionally charged conversation, and again, we could spend, you know, four, five, eight podcasts. It's an ongoing conversation, right? So I don't disagree with you. I think we have to be, as people of color and as a minority group within, you have to be extremely self-aware, number one about your emotions, because there's a lot that could trigger you, you know? And understanding what your triggers are and understanding intent behind what people say or how they interact with you, being able to manage your emotions. It's a skill you have to have, you know? I would almost say forget about excelling, right? Forget about the idea of being promoted or moving up in an organization. I mean, talk just surviving, right? So think about being on projects. Think about being part of teams. How do you, as someone coming to this already in a position where, you know, people have perceptions of you whether or not we're welcome, whether or not we're able to perform at the same level. How do you manage that and then still do your job? I think emotional intelligence is something that you absolutely have to have. Without that, you know, this business will chew you up and basically spit you out. And it's not just EQ, Zach. You know, it's not just emotional intelligence. It's almost like you have to have some social awareness, you know what I mean? Like, you have to--you have to have a bit of empathy, a lot of empathy. You've got to really understand, you know, the organization, you know what I mean? You really have to know where you're working and who you're working for, and in that self-management, you know, how to be--how to control yourself in what can be emotionally charged situations. It's critical, you know? The only way that you're gonna succeed, you know, is if you have a strong sense of, you know, social EQ or social IQ and emotional intelligence. I read something--you know, this guy Daniel Goleman, which--I mean, his model of emotional intelligence is one that's been around for a really long time, you know? He said, "IQ is only 20% of it." Right? EQ is 80%, and I would--I'd offer that social IQ is key. So I don't know if I answered the question completely. You know, I'll get back to the advice. The advice I would--I would give to folks is, you know, you want to position yourself with mentors who have been successful navigating this organization, you know? They haven't moved up into leadership positions by accident. There's something that they're doing right, and whether it's, you know, that they have a highly evolved sense of self or they have a really highly evolved ability to perceive social and emotional situations, you know, you want to find mentors who can actually coach you on how to navigate some of these situations 'cause they're gonna repeat themselves, you know? And if you get good at handling them, you know, I think that is what positions you to do well in this organization. Now, that doesn't change the fact that there's some messed up stuff that goes on out there, right? I mean, let's just be real. You know, we have to deal, as people as color, as the minority group in an organization, there are some folks who, you know, quite frankly may not care whether we succeed or not, right? And that's just the reality, and part of what we deal with I think is, you know, our ability to understand who's in the room. You know, maybe the position that they're holding in terms of, you know, does this person care about me as person or not? Does it matter, right? And then what do I do with that, right? So that's my emotional intelligence, right? My ability to be reflective, you know? My ability to notice my emotional self within a work situation, you know? My ability to evaluate those situations and really begin to notice patterns, right? And then if you notice the patterns, you might start to see some opportunities for you to do something different.Zach: So you've given advice around what people of color and underrepresented groups in Corporate America can do to really develop or continue to sharpen their emotional intelligence and their social IQ. I'm curious, what advice would you give to the C-Suite regarding emotional intelligence and those who seek to be more ethnically inclusive and more welcoming so that they can actually acquire or procure the talent that they're looking for from these ethnically diverse spaces?David: Yeah. That's a multifaceted conversation, right? I think, you know, leaders that are looking to be more inclusive, first of all you have to have a high degree of EQ, right? Your sense of self needs to be very, very strong. You also have to--and within that sense of self, I think it's understanding your intent. Like, what's my intention? You know, is it checking a box? Do I really believe that involving and having a diverse workforce is gonna be advantageous, not only to the things that I touch but to the broader organization? You know, that sense of self is critical, and I would offer something else. It's not just emotional intelligence, it's not just social intelligence, but there's this thing. I don't know if you've heard of this, but the empathy quotient too. Like, your ability to put yourself in the shoes of others, right? Your ability to really walk a mile in the shoes of somebody else, you know? That whole idea of active listening and understanding the intent with which someone is communicating to you, you know? What's the message behind the words? I think--you know, I'm not part of the C-Suite, you know? And I think anything that I'm offering is really just what I've observed in terms of what's really been successful for people looking to be more inclusive. You know, you've got to be awesome at problem solving, and I think the combination of those three things--you know, the social intelligence, the emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient--helps you solve problems, you know? You've got to provide and be a supportive communicator. I think you have to be able to be flexible and be able to communicate with different types of folk. That's just the bottom line. You've got to be confident, you know, truly in empowering people, you know? A to B is always gonna be A to B, but the road may look completely different than you thought, and when you're involving diverse populations in a workforce, you know, you have to believe that the road to get from A to B may be something different just based on the types of people that you get involved, you know? And, I mean, I think in terms of attracting folks to work in a situation, you know, where we work, in this corporate environment, you know, you have to do your best to provide an opportunity and to provide and create an environment where people can contribute and add value, and the only way that you can do that I think is if you have a high degree of not only how you lead, right, but the environment that you want to create, and you have to model that behavior, right? You've got to make sure that no matter what it is, whether it's problem solving, whether it's managing conflict, whether it's how you empower others, whether it's how you communicate, whether it's how you motivate people, you know, I think as a leader, modeling that kind of behavior, that inclusive behavior, and modeling the fact that you need to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, a high degree of social intelligence, a high empathy quotient, you know, that's what makes people want to work with you, right? You know this, Zach. People don't leave jobs. They leave people, right? So the work that you can do on yourself, you know, to become more self-aware, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, right? The work that you do to become and increase your emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient, your social IQ, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, and people are gonna want to work with you, you know? They're gonna want to be part of an organization, you know, especially if you're modeling that behavior.Zach: Man. David, this has been a great conversation, man. Before we wrap up, do you have any parting words and/or any shout outs?David: Wow, shout outs? You know what? Here's the thing. I want to give a big shout out to the A3 posse at Capgemini. Doing incredible work, and a shout out and an apology, right, that I am not more involved. It's one of my goals this year to make myself, as part of the senior leadership of the organization, a bit more present, but I notice and I pay attention, and it's a potent group. Anybody out there who's listening who's not part of A3, you definitely want to get involved because they are doing great things to not only represent within this broader organization but it's a great resource, and it's just nice to be able to have conversations at times with people who speak the same language, who are going through the same things, you know, as we are as people of color trying to navigate, you know, this corporate environment. And I also want to thank you, Zach. I think Living Corporate is a step in the right direction, you know? The more that we can start talking about these things, the more that we can start to talk about the stuff that matters to us as people of color, especially in this day and age, without getting too political. You know, we recognize the times that we live in, and so it's extremely important that we hunker down and that we empower ourselves, right? With the tools that we need, with the kind of support that we need. You know, surround ourselves with the mentors that we need so that we can succeed, you know? And so that we can thrive, and ultimately so that we can definitely survive. So thank you, Zach. I can't--you're doing great work, brother. I want you to keep it up.Zach: Man, I appreciate it, David. And absolutely, man. Shout out for those who are listening. A Cubed is an African-American employee resource group at Capgemini, a great resource for black folks to come together and really, to David's point, really a strong point of relation and community within the community. So definitely shout out to A3, shout out to A Cubed. Shout out to Janet Pope, who was on the show before. I know that she leads that group. And David, man, thank you again for the love, man. We want to make sure to have you back, and we appreciate it, dude. We'll talk to you soon.David: All right. Zach, thank you very much.Zach: All right, man. Peace.David: Peace.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. I really appreciated his candid tone and vulnerability. I also really appreciated his stories around facilitating and managing personalities as well. I'm just out here trying to manage myself [inaudible].Zach: Right. In my experience in working with David, it's amazing to even just see it in action. I appreciated his points around being reflective and being able to interpret emotions and move accordingly.Ade: Well, he talked about emotional and social intelligence being what helps you solve problems. That really resonated with me because in my own head I get really, really nervous about dealing with people or being at work and having the right answer, and I've been noticing that when I take a breath and think through how I feel as well as those around me, beyond the X's and O's, the zeroes and ones, I'm able to arrive at a solution that actually works. To me, that's the simplest hook for the why behind why emotional and social intelligence might be a focus. They help you solve problems, and who doesn't want to be good at solving problems? With that being said, unless you have any further thoughts, let's get into our Favorite Things. How do you feel?Zach: No, that's awesome. Let's do it. So my favorite thing right now has to be DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom. I was really excited when he announced the fact that he was--he was almost finished with it, and so I preordered it, and I've been waiting, and it dropped on my birthday, September 4th. So I'm, like--I'm just excited to read it. I haven't really gotten fully into it yet, but I finished the intro, and I'm loving what I'm reading so far, and I can tell already that it's a favorite.Ade: So I'm confused. You said September 4th. Do you mean Beyonce's birthday? [Sound Man throws in car slamming on its brakes effect]Ade: Beyonce? Her birthday?Zach: I mean my birthday, and listen, I've been on this earth long enough now to realize that, yes, it's B Day. I get it, but, you know, it's my birthday too, okay? Beyonce does not own the day.[car slams on its brakes again]Ade: She does, because as you said, it's B Day, not Z Day. Which, you know, cool. You can have, like, September 5th or something, but September 4th is B Day. So, like, I guess you can rent September 4th. It's fine. It's fine. We'll be nice.Zach: [laughs] Okay. We might have to subtitle this show (B?) Happy Z Day. That would be kind of funny. We might do that.[again]Ade: Why not B Day?Zach: [sighs] Why don't we go ahead and go to your favorite things? How about that?Ade: All right. All right, okay. I'm gonna stop frustrating you. All right, so my current favorite thing is this book called The Storied Life of A.J. Fikry. Now, it is purely a work of fiction. It is comedy and it is drama and it is a tragedy, and if you're the sort of person who likes an emotional rollercoaster with your literary works I certainly recommend that book. My second favorite thing, because I can never choose just one, is this, like, nifty invention called a water bottle. I've been training for a marathon again, and I don't know how much you know about training for marathons, but they suck. The training sucks, the marathon sucks. I don't know why I'm doing this. Somebody help me. But water bottles have been saving my life so far, so there's that upside. Yay.Zach: [laughs] Okay. Well, yeah, definitely shout out to the book, and shout out to water bottles, you know? My wife, she just recently toured Route 66.Ade: Aye!Zach: Yeah, and one thing I remember I told her--I was like, "Listen, make sure you have water," and she said, "I will in my water bottle." So yes, shout out to water and shout out to Favorite Things, and as a reminder, to see all of our favorite things, go to our website, living-corporate.com, and click Faves. You'll see all of our favorite things for the season right there. Make sure you go check it out.Ade: Yep. And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We're Living Corporate everywhere! That does it for us on this show. My name is Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with activist, educator, public speaker and host of Crooked Media's Pod Save the People DeRay Mckesson to talk about working while woke and his first book, "The Other Side of Freedom" that is available 9/4/18!About DeRayOrder DeRay's book herePod Save The PeopleCrooked MediaTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. It's Monday, September 3rd, the day before a few things drop. One, Beyonce's birthday. Two, my birthday. Three, Black Panther on Netflix, and last but certainly not least is DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom: The Case for Hope. About the book, Henry Louis Gates Jr. says "On the Other Side of Freedom reveals the mind and motivations of a young man who has risen to the foray of millennial activism through study, discipline, and conviction. His belief in a world that can be made better one act at a time powers his narratives and opens up a new view on the cost, consequences, and rewards of leading a movement. Now, I feel as if you've gotten to know the Living Corporate team this season. For those who know me, they know I'm a genuine admirer of DeRay's work. I love his podcast on Crooked Media called Pod Save the People. So shout out to Brittany, Sam, and Clint Smith III, or Clint Smith "Aye-aye-aye." For me and many folks in my generation, DeRay was the face of a new type of activism that was mobilized through social media. The honesty and, by direct correlation, courageousness of speaking truth to power on such accessible platforms was a major point of inspiration for Living Corporate. Because of this, I'm excited to tell y'all we actually got him on the show to talk about working as a socially-conscious person of color in Corporate America and about his journey in writing his book, The Other Side of Freedom: The Case of Hope. So what you're gonna hear next is an interview I had with DeRay. His book is also one of our Favorite Things, so make sure you check out the links on the show notes and our website, and make sure you preorder it. So while you're jamming to B-Day you could also be reading this book. See y'all on Friday. Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed before the break, we have DeRay Mckesson. DeRay, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?[Sound Man throws in cheers]DeRay: It's good to be here. I'm good. I'm good.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling a little bit about yourself?DeRay: Yeah. My name is DeRay Mckesson. I'm an activist, and I have a podcast called Pod Save the People. I used to be a teacher, and I'm committed to the work of social justice. Zach: I follow you on IG. You don't follow me, but it's cool. I get it. I saw a post you made about a note that you got from the FBI after they visited your home in 2016. Can you talk to us about the biggest impacts that purposed activism has had in your life?DeRay: Yeah, I think that--I think that one of the most powerful things about the protests for sure, and I think about when we were all on the street in 2014 in the early days of Ferguson and everything since is that it's helped empower [people who] didn't believe they had power before. I never would've [inaudible] before then. I just, like, didn't--I didn't think about that as a way to sort of force [inaudible], and now I would check on [inaudible] our government only exists [inaudible]--and we've seen over the last three years is people [inaudible] protest [inaudible] how the world can be better and what their role can be in making it better.Zach: So you're not a stranger in these federal or social media streets. In fact, you and I connected some time ago. I believe that we were able to make that connection because you're able to engage in topics around social equity in really courageous but still very approachable ways. You've mentioned in the past your work with Campaign Zero and of course the work that you're doing with Pod Save the People. Wonderful podcast. One of my--my favorite podcasts actually. And the things that you touch and that you curate, I think that--I think they have so much impact because they're so practical and they challenge people of color as well as non-people of color to engage and be part of the solution. Think about Living Corporate--and our audience is primarily people of color in the working world--are there any things that you believe middle-class or affluent people of color are not doing in mass but that could be done to support the movement and the work?DeRay: I don't know [inaudible]--and I'm gonna start from, like, a place of lack, but I think that where can all grow, especially as somebody who used to work in [inaudible] the school system of Baltimore, you know, which was one of the chiefs in my 50-people team and, you know, it's a billion-dollar organization is that always remembering that confrontation doesn't always look one way. So there are ways to show up in rooms where things happen that aren't about equity, aren't about justice, aren't really about our community, that don't focus on us and don't center us but should, and we can push and challenge, but it doesn't have to be a sit-down. It doesn't have to be a storm out of the room. It doesn't have to be a yell. I think about some of the meetings where I've been really successful it's, like, asking the really awful question, right? It's, like, not letting people off the hook and making them to do the cognitive work as approached to preaching to them. Like, those are things that we can do in all settings that are really powerful. The second is that the systems and structures are designed to drown out individuals and, like, make individuals believe they don't have power. That is, like, how the game is set up. What we can do is, like, remember that, like, people have a lot of--like, individuals, individuals who come together to form collectives like [inaudible]. Think about one parent who emailed in at the beginning of the school year when I was the chief human capitol who requested something very specific. She was the only parent we heard from. She was right, and if not for her email we wouldn't have redone this whole plan, but, like, she emailed it, and it was perfect, right? It wasn't about volume. It was about, like, the content, and people just don't know that. They don't realize that systems often take the feedback, but one of the reasons why they don't tell you they take the feedback is 'cause they don't want to deal with 10,000 of you. So that's that, and the third is that, like, you can learn all of these issues too. So I would say to most people, like, find an issue that matters to you that you believe in. Like, try to learn as much about it as possible because that will actually set you up to, like, think about problems and structures in people's lives and really in a powerful way.Zach: So continuing a little bit--'cause I want to talk a little bit more about people of color in these places, right? So I count myself as somewhat socially conscious. At the same time though I still work in structures that really weren't built for me, so let me ask you this. Do you think that there's a way to challenge the systems we're pushing up while still climbing within them? I ask because it seems counter-intuitive on its face to me. I say this as someone, like I said, in the work. I've had very explicit conversations with colleagues who respect Living Corporate's mission, but they're afraid to even kind of publicly support it because they think it's gonna mess their bag up 'cause they don't want to necessarily talk about those things. Like, what would you say to that?DeRay: Yeah. I don't know if I have anything new to say besides, like, knowing that confrontation doesn't always [inaudible]. Like I said, people often think about challenge as, like, some dramatic thing, but I've been in rooms with people I really--you know, I made a decision when somebody came in. I was like, "Even if you say no, can we talk this out and, like, think through it this way?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's talk it out," and, like, "Oh, I didn't see it that way." Like, I think that sometimes we think about challenging in the workplace as some grand statement. It just doesn't have to be like that. The outcome--we just need the outcome to be the outcome. So there are some meetings that are like--I just wouldn't let the question go. So I knew it was the wrong decision, but if I came out and said, like, "I think that you're making a dumb decision," the person would respond in a way that just was not--I wouldn't get the outcome. I would feel better, but I wouldn't get the outcome. So what I can do is say, like, "Hey, what if we play with this option? What if we do this option? Can we talk about options today?" Like, that's actually a way for me to push the thinking and, like, get to where I want, where there are some meetings where you just have to say, like, "No, we're not doing that," right? And, like, if you want to do it that way, then we need to go talk to this person. So, like, just knowing that there are ways to push and challenge, and everything doesn't have to look the same. Zach: You know, I've had some coworkers who will run up on me and show me a Facebook post or a racist article or something--the latest thing the president said and go, "Zach, that's so racist. That's so bad," or they'll even brag about, like, the latest protest they were a part of, but at the same time some of those same people might not necessarily feel comfortable speaking up when [inaudible] morning meetings or cursed out or disrespected in other ways. So certainly you have experience in building meaningful coalitions. What advice would you give to the everyday perhaps well-meaning, aspiring ally on how they can put empathy and allyship into practice?DeRay: Yeah. Whiteness is a shield, and they should use that shield in a way that, like, serves people. So, you know, it often [inaudible]. A lot of white people don't realize that. Like, you and I both know what it's like [to not be listened to and not be heard?]Zach: Right.DeRay: A lot of white people just, like, don't know. Like, they don't know what it's like to, like, literally not be listened to and not be heard. That's, like, a new thing. They aren't, like, ignored, right? So some of it is, like, helping people just see, you know? In classrooms, one of the things that we do is we sit in the back of classrooms and, like, we can tally up the number of positive to negative things that the teacher says, and that gives a sense of what's going on in the classroom. Same thing in board rooms and in meetings. We can tally, like, who gets called or [inaudible] power is working in a given space. So you've got to step into the discomfort, and there are moments when, like, you know that something's off, and again, like, confrontation doesn't always have to look the same. 'Cause you can say, like, "Oh, no, I wanted to hear you first." Like, you can share your space. You can share power. You can create space. You can create power. Like, I think there are a host of things that people can do that don't have to feel like that or even actually be [inaudible]. The impact is really powerful.Zach: No, I agree with that, and it's something that you've--again, you've reiterated it a few times, but I do think when we talk about the work or we talk about, again, kind of pushing up again these systems and things like that, we often think about something really combative or antagonistic, and it doesn't always have to be like that. That's something that kind of reminds me--like, a common thread in the things that you say, especially on Pod Save the People, that just the human element of it, right? Like, actually being able to build that connection. Like you said, giving up space for that person. "Hey, I wanted you to talk first." You're doing a lot there without you having to necessarily be in any way negative, quote unquote. So let's do this. Let's talk about The Other Side of Freedom. It happens on Beyonce and I's birthday, September 4th. So air horns for that.[Sound Man obliges]Zach: But why a book? Why now? And what do you want people to take from it?DeRay: Yeah. So I was--you know, I've been reflecting on all of the places I've been, and I wanted to share them because I've been to a lot of places. I've been in the street in a lot of cities. I've been a teacher. [inaudible]. I think about, like, what are the lessons? Like, what are the [themes?] This was my attempt to look at all of the stories and then say, "Here are the tools that I took out of them." [inaudible] is, like, a sermon that's called [inaudible] Story. I loved the title, but I didn't know what it meant, and I listened to it, and he talks about sometimes you can tell your story [inaudible] so all you see is the pain not the purpose. I'm at a point now where I can think about the big lessons and themes that I got. [inaudible]Zach: So it seems like book writing is a lot of work, right? Like, I've seen your posts. You know, I've seen your posts on Instagram. You've posted the various edits and revisions that the book went through, and then you went to the copying center, and it just seemed like a lot to do. In your journey of writing your book, is there anything you learned about yourself?DeRay: I learned a ton of things. You know, some things--I spend most of my time writing online. Like, writing on Twitter. [inaudible] all the way out, you know, in essay for the reader and the writer, and I needed to process a lot of things, so it was important to me about writing [inaudible], and I had to process a lot of feelings and emotions. And writing about my mother. I talk about my mother a lot, but I've never written about in this way so I needed to do--like, I was pushed in my own personal space. So that was really healthy. And, like, things about the essay on the police. It's, like, there's a lot of research we [never put anywhere?] I want it put somewhere. So yeah, the book was really a growing experience.Zach: DeRay, this has been a great discussion, man, and I want to thank you again for coming to the show. Before we again, do you have any shout outs?DeRay: Please buy the book. I'm excited. Have conversations with people about the book, and we have a lot more to do. Zach: Absolutely, yeah. So the book is called The Other Side of Freedom. DeRay, we'll make sure that we put it in the show notes, and then we'll also be listing it on our website as a Favorite Thing so people can make sure that they have no excuse not to get it. Thank you so much for your time, man.DeRay: Thank you so much.Zach: All right, peace.DeRay: Bye-bye.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with Rod, 1/2 of The Black Guy Who Tips to talk about his experiences as a black man in Corporate America and hear his advice for engaging your own creative outlets.Length: 19:31Host: ZachThe Black Guy Who Tipshttp://www.theblackguywhotips.com/Rodhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeKarenhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, look, yes, we've talked about B-Sides before, but remember, every episode is somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random, looser shows in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--yes, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. If you wanna know what I mean by more lit, Sound Man gon' drop some air horns right here. Sound Man, give 'em to me. [Sound Man obliges]Zach: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Now, listen, sometimes, you know, we have discussions as a follow-up to the regular full-time shows just with the hosts. Sometimes it's one host having an extended monologue, and sometimes we actually have a special guest. Yes, that's right, a special guest, and today is no different. We actually have Rod, A.K.A. half of the show from The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: Hey, thanks for having me, man.Zach: Hey, man, thank you. Man, thank you for being here. Now, look--look, look, look. Rod is an entrepreneur, a comedian, writer, and most prominently half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Rod, along with his lovely wife Karen Morrow, A.K.A. SayDatAgain on social media, record out of North Carolina where they talk about everything you want to hear about. With that being said, welcome to the show, Rod. How you doin', man?Rod: Hey, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you reaching out.Zach: Man, I appreciate you responding, bro. And it's funny, you talk about Twitter fame--you talk about celebrity and, like, being famous, right? And I was about to make, like, a "you famous" joke, but I recognize that some people have various levels of sensitivity about that, so. [laughs] For those of us who don't know you, man, explain the title of The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: The Black Guy Who Tips is a comedy podcast. The title basically started from--there's so much anti-blackness in the service industry towards black, like, people as patrons, and my wife and I, we both co-host this podcast. My wife and I, we both used to be waiters as well. During all this time as waiters and stuff, you know, we faced--we were on the other side. We got to see what waiters and companies think of black patrons, and it's not cool, you know? And a lot of 'em have racist attitudes, and then they go "Black people don't tip," you know? They treat us like trash and they expect us to not just tip but basically to overtip to compensate for the fact that we're black. Now, the original title is from a blog I used to write. It was a comedy blog, and I called myself The Black Guy Who Tips because I was like, "I'm sick of people saying black people don't tip." So if you're saying that, you know at least one black person who tips if you read my blog. It's me, and I know I'm not--I know I'm not alone. I'm not--you know, I'm not the only one.Zach: Absolutely not, man. Listen, I also tip, okay? And I always at least tip 15%, okay? Now--Rod: Yeah. I overtip, and I wish I could get that out of my system because--I overtip mostly because I used to be a server, but part of it is the black thing that hangs over all black people where we feel like we're always representing everyone, and it's not fair that--you know, 'cause I've done--I've been in situations where I'm like, "Man, this guy was terrible. What a horrible waiter. I'm only gonna give him 20% because I am sick--" You know? Like, I should just not tip this dude. Like, he was terrible, but for some reason--I hope I get over that hang-up one day, man.Zach: It's funny, right, because I actually have a friend, and he worked at a Pappadeaux's out here in Houston, and so--and he's a white brother. So what he would do is--he said when people would come in and they'd be black people, they wouldn't say, "Oh, we got black people over there," they would use code language. Rod, you wanna know what the code language they used to say, "Oh, we got some black folks over here?"Rod: I hope it wasn't Canadians.Zach: It was Canadians, dawg.Rod: Aw! See? I've been on the other side. I've dealt with it. It's the worst. Zach: [laughs] Yes, man. They be like, "Yeah, we got some Canadians over there." I'm curious, before you started The Black Guy Who Tips Live and before you started doing that full-time, did you have any moments, while you working in Corporate America, that you were like, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before," and I ask because we're coming off a full episode with Michael Williams, who's a financial banking executive, and he was talking about his stories and his experiences in Corporate America, and I'm just curious, man, do you have any similar stories about like, "Wow, it's clear that you have just never worked with a black man before."Rod: Uh, yeah. I have a few. You know, I worked in Corporate America for--oh, man, since I was 16 I think. I was doing internships and also during the summer working as a waiter and stuff. So yeah, I have plenty of stories. One quick one, I had a manager later in my career, like, one of the last managers I ever had. I had a manager who was a white dude from, like, New Jersey. Pretty--you know, a guy that you would see generally as a pretty progressive white man for an older white man. Like, I never felt he was overtly racist, but he was very, like, liberal racist.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Rod: And so he would do this thing where we'd get in a meeting and--I don't know if you've ever been in a meeting like this, but some white dudes, like, really dramatize their anger. Like, anger is their thing at work.Zach: Yeah.Rod: You know, he wasn't angry towards anyone in the room. He was never rude or mean to anyone. I never saw him snap, but he would do stuff like be angry at a situation. So he'd be like, "Oh, and this," you know, "F-word." Not the slur, but, like, you know.Zach: Right, right, right.Rod: "This mother F-word would do this, and this son of a B would do that," and I'm like, "Okay." So he's angry, right, and he's frustrated, and he has that room to do that, and so we'd be at a meeting and then, like, if I were to be like, "Well, you know, I was working with this vendor, and they did this, and I just don't understand why they would do that because essentially it's gonna cost them extra money, and I'm trying to convince them to do blank, and it'll help everyone out." He would, like, put his hand on my shoulder like, "Calm down, Rod. It's okay." You know? "Don't be too upset." I'm like, "I'm not upset." He's like, "Yeah. It's okay, big fella." I'm like, "What is happening right now?" Like, I'm gonna get upset, and it took a few of those meetings before I realized, "Oh, he's kind of, like, afraid of me in a way that's not--" Like, it makes me uncomfortable because it puts--he's my manager, but he's putting me in a position where I'm, like, an aggressor and I'm not, yet he walks around all day spouting off, you know, cuss words and all this stuff and it's okay. So yeah, I was like, "This guy just doesn't know black people, I guess."Zach: Man--so look, let's trade a couple stories until we run out. Let's see how awkward we can get with some of these stories about just working while black, okay? So here I--so I heard yours, so I'ma match yours with this one. So this was before I got into consulting, right? And I was working--I was working in the energy space. It was my birthday. So my boss wasn't there for my birthday, and to your point, she was also a very liberal white woman. She would--I think by all other accounts you would consider her progressive, right? So I walk into my cubicle, and I see, like, this shadow. Like, I see, like, a shadow, like, in my cubicle. I'm like, "Who is sitting at my desk?" Now, Rod, I then walk into my cubicle, and I see this big, inflated, light-skinned monkey in my chair.Rod: No way.Zach: Yes way. So then I see the monkey, and I'm like, "What is this?" So then I turn the monkey around, and it has a little--like, a little necklace thing on it, like a lanyard, and it says "Happy birthday, Zach."Rod: Wow. Dude, that's--that's insane.Zach: So I look at it, and I'm like, "What?" So then I take it and--so, you know, again, my boss isn't there, so first--of course I take a picture. I gotta take a picture. I send it to my parents, and then I take it and I put the monkey at her desk 'cause she's not there. So then the next day, right, she goes, "Hey, did you see my monkey?" "Did you see the monkey yet? Did you see your birthday present?" And I said, "I did. Yeah, that was really disappointing and inappropriate," right? So, not that it would be a surprise to you at all, I then got turned into I have the attitude problem, I'm overly sensitive--Rod: Mm-hmm.Zach: Right? She starts crying, tearing up. I'm like, "What is going on? You put a monkey at my desk, right?" And it's just like, "Wow." Like, "You clearly never considered," you know? And, you know, she came out later and was like, "You know, I like monkeys." Like, "Monkey is, like, my favorite animal," blah blah blah blah, and I'm like, "Okay." I mean, that's fine for you personally, right? But for you to then give that to somebody, and such a big one too, right? It wasn't even like a small gesture, dawg. It was huge. It was--so I'm 6'2", so it wasn't as big as me, but it was a big monkey, man. Like, it was big enough to when I walked around the corner I thought--I thought someone was sitting at my desk. It was crazy, man. So let me ask you something, 'cause, you know, I know you--what would you have done in that situation? I just want to--like, off the cuff, what would've been your reaction?Rod: Well, see, here's the thing. I'm not very reactionary, and I'm probably, believe it or not, one of the more patient people most people know. I probably would've not been too moved to anger or offense or shock, but I would've taken that monkey out of my cubicle for sure, put it somewhere, like, in a car or something, like, somewhere away from me, and then I would've pulled her to the side and been like, "Listen, I don't know how this goes with you and other black people, but don't do that again towards me, and you probably should never do that again with another black person because my assumption is you're not aware but this can be perceived as racist, and this is why," you know? And, you know, my general responses that I've had from checking white people on racism has not been one of too much animosity, but mostly because I'm just not--I'm very rarely triggered to anger, so for the most part I haven't had to deal with a fragile white person breaking down crying and stuff, but yeah, I mean, you did the right--there's nothing you did wrong, and there's nothing--you know, like I said, I can only hope that that would be the response is that they'd be like, "My bad," you know what I mean? 'Cause--I mean, what else do I want at that point? If I don't want you fired, then I just want a "My fault, playa. Won't do it again," and then I'm cool. It'll become a funny story that I remember and tell people or whatever, but yeah, I don't--you know, I probably would handle it pretty even-keel, probably wouldn't have went to HR even though I would've had every right to. I'm just not that kind of person really.Zach: You transitioned from, you know, working for somebody else to really building--so I don't want to be hyperbolic and say an empire, right? Or a dynasty and be corny, but you've built something for yourself. Like, you and your wife of course, with the help of your wife, and shout out to the wives out there. I mean, my wife, she's not on my podcast, but she definitely supports me and helps me and holds me down as I'm doing all of this stuff, but, you know, what advice would you give to people who are actively in Corporate America, black and brown folks who are trying to navigate, especially if they're trying to navigate and they're thinking about ways to find another avenue outside of working a 9-to-5.Rod: Yeah, okay. Man, there's so much I can say. I'll start with--first, in my Corporate America stint where I got laid off twice in the span of the, like, four years I was doing the podcast while working--and maybe it was 5, but either way--the podcast I always treated like I would treat if I had a second job. Like, I made sure to make the time and the preparation, and I treated it in many ways like a full-time job before it was a full-time job, so by that I mean it was not a hobby. Now, there's nothing wrong with a podcast as a hobby. There's nothing wrong with anything as a hobby. We need--especially as black people, we need outlets outside of corporate structures, specifically corporate structures that are encapsulated, white spaces. So, you know, you always have these voices inside that might not get out, and you need to feed that voice 'cause it'll die if you let it. Zach: Right.Rod: So for me I'll say look, work on your craft as if you're already doing it full-time to a certain extent. Be professional, you know? Think about your sound quality. Think about the time commitment. Consistency is key. These are all boring things I'm telling you, but the boring things are what--the boring things is basically Mr. Miyagi making you wash his car and sand his bench, but then when you become--when you make that transition into trying to monetize it, you already know, you know, wax on wax off, and that's what keeps it working. That's what makes it easy, the basics. So yeah, learn your craft, learn your tools, right? You learn your microphones that you use, how to get the best sound out of it. Your internet setup, how to get your best communication when you want to have guests. You're gonna have to learn, you know, your equipment and internet hosting things, you know? Like, what are the differences on sites? All that stuff. Everything is so Google-able at this point. YouTube has so many tutorials. I use Audacity to record. It's a basic, free software. I still use it to this day.Zach: Same here, yeah. For sure.Rod: Right, and I know people that would pay, like, hundreds and thousands of dollars for rigs, and you're like--then they hit me up, "How'd you get that sound?" I'm like, "Oh, Audacity," and they hit up--you know? So yeah, there's plenty of ways, plenty of paths, and then the most thing that I would want you to remember from coming from a Corporate America background where they really do a job on our brains of trying to smush us all into these cubicles and these boxes and this linear thinking of "All of us should think the same way. Don't think outside of the box. Don't be too creative," right? When you're in your personal space and you're creating something from scratch for yourself, make it for you. Make it as personal as you would like. I made the podcast I would love to have heard when I was working. I made the podcast that was gonna be with me five days a week and talk about topics that were random but could be comedic, could be serious. I made the podcast that was gonna, like, make me not feel like a crazy person in a corporate structure where you go to work and some of your people that you work with voted for Trump. Some of the people you work with, you know, you may be the only black person they know, you know? But I wanted to make a show for black and brown people all over the globe where they didn't feel alone for a couple hours a day or whatever, so they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, so you saw that too, and that was crazy to you as well. Yeah, okay, cool. You know, this is like sitting at the lunch table again," and many podcasts have done that for me as well as a listener, working and working for myself. Those are, like, the basic things I would say.Zach: Man, that's dope, Rod. I appreciate it, man. I'm curious, man, before we wrap up--first of all, I have a random, unrelated question. Do you see yourself creating another video on social media that has as much vitriol as that Kit Kat video?Rod: [laughs] I don't think I could do that if I tried. I don't even know--I have no idea what goes viral. There's another video of me eating (Talenti?) where I smoked it like a heroin spoon.Zach: Yeah, I saw that. [laughs]Rod: Yeah, and now--and for some reason that never one goes truly viral, but I'm like, "That's the most creative one I ever did."Zach: That one was wonderful.Rod: Yeah. The Kit Kat one was just me being--I just thought it would be funny, and I have several other videos of--I had one where I tried to--I can't remember. Oh, I tried to--[laughs] I'm sorry. I tried to snort candy corn.Zach: [laughs]Rod: [laughs] It was so ridiculous, but that one didn't get picked up. So hey, man, I have no idea what will make people mad. I'm not trying to make 'em mad, but boy, did that one make 'em mad. Zach: So beyond the implication of, like, you, like, actually, like, harming yourself, it'd be really funny if you melted down a Hershey's bar and, like, injected it between your toes.Rod: Right. [laughs] You should've heard the idea board that I've just thrown at my wife over the, like--"You know what I should do? I should take a Kit Kat, and I'ma put it in some soup or something," and she's just like, "Don't do that." I'm like, "You right. You right."Zach: [laughs] Man, I shared that video with my wife. I shared that video of the Kit Kat with my wife. She was like, "Oh, I'm just so offended." Dawg, she was so mad. [laughs]Rod: People were watching it like I, like, hurt a small child or something like that. They're like *gasps* "Why would you do that?" I'm like, "It's just a candy bar. You can eat it how you want."Zach: You also dunked on 'em at the end when you said, "Are you mad?" [laughs]Rod: [laughs] And they were mad. Who knew? They were really mad, man. I thought we'd all have a laugh, but we did not.Zach: Any shout outs? Any at all. Any shout outs you have at all.Rod: I mean--well, you know, obviously my wife Karen. Could not do The Black Guy Who Tips without her.Zach: Yes, shout out to Karen. Air horns for Karen, yes.Rod: Ironically, like, honestly, the show would not be named The Black Guy Who Tips, but she did not--she was not sure she would make a good co-host, which anybody that has listened to our show is like, "What?"Zach: That's crazy, straight up.Rod: Like, I don't feel--like, I don't even take it as offense anymore. It's like, "I know nobody comes for me. They're coming for Karen, and then I'm just out there throwing alley-oops and letting her dunk over people." So yeah, it's that, but it would be probably The Rod & Karen Show, which may not be nearly as--would have gotten it the same traction, so maybe it helped out even though she wasn't trying to. Yeah, that would be the--obviously all the podcasts I listen to and all the podcast friends and family that we've established over the years, and black podcasters, podcasters of color in general, you know? We out here. Our voices are important. Don't give up, man. Just keep making the show for you. Don't look at other people's race. Run your race, and, you know, try to be better every time you take the mic. That's the best, realest advice I can give.Zach: Man, Rod, we appreciate it. That does it for us here on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so if you can spare a dollar a month--yes, just a dollar--to support content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America, show us some love. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Zach. You've been listening to Rod, A.K.A. Rodimus Prime, A.K.A. half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Go ahead, shout 'em out one last time, Rod.Rod: TheBlackGuyWhoTips.com. Find us, okay? You can go on Twitter at TBGWT. You can follow me on Twitter at RodimusPrime, and drop the air horns right now.[Sound Man drops 'em]Zach: There it is. [laughs] Peace. Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this B-Side, Ade sits down with Christa Clarke, entrepreneur, public speaker, project manager and event hostess about the #MyMentalMatters episode.To connect with Christa:instagram.com/heychristaclarkewww.freeingshe.comTo learn more about Cubicles to Cocktailsinstagram.com/cubiclestococktailswww.cubiclestococktails.comRelated blog posts Christa referenced and/or wrote:www.freeingshe.com/blog/positive-affirmations-dont-work-for-everyonehttps://itsallyouboo.com/escaping-a-toxic-work-environment/Mandela Dixon's Mental Health + Workplace Instagram Posthttps://www.instagram.com/p/BmDhNTrgZs3/?taken-by=mandelash TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, y'all? This is Ade with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a B-Side. So if you've been here for a while you might know what a B-Side is, but in case this is your first episode I'm going to give you a quick intro. So for our new folks listening, B-Sides are much more informal shows that we have in-between our larger episodes. These are much less structured and often more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're conversations between us, the hosts. Sometimes they're extended monologues--I'm looking at you, Zach--or sometimes they're a chat with a special guest, and today we have a really special guest with us, Christa Clarke. Now, Christa is the founder and chief creator of FreeingShe, which is her lifestyle blog, as well as Cubicles and Cocktails event series. Christa's also a project manager in the health care industry and a wife based out of Houston. She's a self-confessed blerd y'all I know rock with who loves technology and health sciences. She also happens to be a huge lover of hand-crafted cocktails, (which?) shout out to you, and a wine enthusiast, pairing wine to fit her food and her mood. You sounded like my kind of lady. Christa, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Christa: [laughs] I'm doing great. How are you?Ade: I am wonderfully cramped. [laughs] Hanging out in my closet. Okay, guys. For those of you listening, I happen to be recording from my closet today so that I can increase the audio quality of Living Corporate. Never say I've never done anything outside of my comfort zone. So Christa, I'm here with my cup of coffee, and I just want to know - did you listen to our latest episode? What'd you think?Christa: I did, yeah. So, like, the latest episode, I thought it was, like, a very great discussion, and also an excellent resource for communities of color when it comes to starting on a mental health wellness journey. One of the things that, like, particularly stood out to me in the conversation too was Evelyn from the Internets' "Calling In While Black." [laughs]Ade: Yep. Oh, God. [laughs]Christa: I thought the video, like, was so funny, but it was so truthful. I know, like, after Trump was elected I honestly did not want to go to work. [laughs] And then also, you know, just when new cases of police brutality, you know, pop up, like, I just--it just, you know, causes me deep distress, as well as, like, a lot of community members. And so, like, I totally related to the video. I know one of the things that I do in particular though when cases of police brutality or anything that's, like, systemic racism or sexism against marginalized communities pop up, I try not to share the videos, and I don't watch the videos because as a person of color myself, as a woman of color, I don't feel that I need to actually, like, do that in order for me to action and just--the viewing for me actually causes deep trauma, and so I just avoid viewing, but I just--you know, I just go ahead and take the action anyway. So that's one of the things that I do encourage people of color to not do is to not share those videos or watch them if it does cause you intense pain.Ade: Yeah. So I hear you about, you know, not sharing those videos because--I think I made a very intentional decision, particularly after the Walter Scott shooting, and I remember very, very clearly sitting and making the decision not to watch it because I had watched every video before that, and it had seemed as though bearing witness was the least I could do for these people, but after each video I realized--I even listened to the 911 recordings in the Trayvon Martin case, and I realized that it wasn't doing me any good. Being in that space, being in that mental space, just was not helpful. It wasn't helping me. It wasn't helping my community. It wasn't helping anybody around me, and so I had to take responsibility and take ownership of the course of my mental health, and that was the overarching theme of that conversation for me. And I take my mental hygiene seriously, so much so that I wrote a list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday to be really intentional about my self-care in this new chapter of my life. Allow me to ask you this. What intentional decisions have you made for the sake of your mental wellness?Christa: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I will say, like, you know, just--some of, like, the easier things to talk about is that I--you know, I participate in yoga. I do yoga and I meditate. I actually meditate in an office. I have a sign where it's like, "Meditation In Progress," and I tape that to my door so that I'm not disturbed. And, you know, I also read devotionals and have some scriptures that are my favorite, so they're, like, easy to refer back to. I use scriptures in place of affirmations because personally for me a lot of affirmations--I feel like they just don't work, and sometimes they make me feel worse. Like, there's actually, like, research out there that shows that affirmations don't work for everybody and that there's--you know, there's a process you should go through in order to get to the point where, you know, looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, "I am a confident, beautiful black woman," you know? [laughs] Like, actually like [inaudible], and you actually believe it. And so for me I just--I wrote a blog post about it called I Thought Affirmations Were A Key To Success - I Was Wrong, and that just explains, like, my whole thought process behind why I personally don't use affirmations and why I personally lean on biblical scriptures. I also avoid caffeine, and for caffeine I find that caffeine triggers anxiety in me, especially when I'm dehydrated, which, you know, when I'm too--when I'm too busy, sometimes I do forget to drink water, and so I--that's really hard 'cause, you know, in Corporate America, I feel like caffeine and corporate environments, like, they just go hand-in-hand, right? You know, your mid-afternoon coffee break. Ade: Right.Christa: So I don't have those, but I would say, like, the biggest thing for me was actually, like, leaving what I considered personally a toxic work environment. Mandela Dixon--she started Founder's Gym--she posted recently on Instagram about her experience having anxiety attacks in her office and her workplace, and she said through reflection she realized that her growth was, like--she felt that her growth was being stunted, her creativity was blocked, and that her value was being taken for granted, and when I read those words, like, I totally related to that. At a previous job, I really felt very, very truly that all three of those things were happening to me, and it was causing a lot of tension at home with my husband, a lot of--by the end of my time, by the end of my tenureship there, I was feeling sick all of the time. Like, GI issues, bad sleep, and--and, you know, just, like, bouts where sometimes I would just come home and cry or I'd come home and be really fatigued. I know I've had a few anxiety attacks actually in that workplace, and mainly I feel like it came from a place of me trying to be strong and trying to, you know, just continue to work and deliver great quality work and not putting myself first, and so I ended up contacting EAP, which is Employee Assistance Program, after one incident that just left me emotionally disturbed, to find a therapist and get connected to a therapist. And so from there, you know, we kind of explored, like, what are my options? Do I learn coping mechanisms to not let the stress get to me and let it drive me to the point where I'm, like, in the office feeling like--literally feeling like I'm dying, like I can't breathe, you know? I'm so nauseated and dizzy. Or is my--is my option, best choice for myself, is for me to leave the environment? And for me the decision was to leave. So I--you know, I got really serious about my job search, and I just, you know, kept on praying. I really enjoyed the work that I was doing at my old position, but, you know, for me, I just kept on praying, "God, I just want a better environment. God, I just want to feel as if I'm working for a boss who values me and wants to see me succeed," and I didn't talk to him about what the job would be. I didn't talk to him about the compensation. And so finally when a door was opened, I was looking at entering a brand new field in the health care industry that I've never touched. Like, I've done entrepreneurship, I've done clinical operations, and this is, like, you know, academia now for medical school. So I was also looking at a pay cut. [laughs] So I wasn't expecting that, and so that was a very--you know, a very difficult decision to make, but, you know, no amount of money--and I know this sounds so cliche, but no amount of money is, like, worth your mental health and worth your sanity. And so, you know, I took that leap of faith and I left, and the first--the entire first week of my new job, I was actually having anxiety attacks in that office. So that's, like, how much toxicity, like, has built up in my system. My body was, like, still expelling that in the new office. And at first I thought it was just the fluorescent lights causing me to be, you know, dizzy and nauseous in the workplace, but now they don't bother me. And so, like, in reflection I realize, "Wow, that was just, like, me having [inaudible] episodes of anxiety that was being triggered from that old workplace," and how [inaudible], but yeah. I think that was, like--you know, that was definitely the biggest decision that I've ever made in terms of protecting my mental wellness.Ade: Yeah. That is huge. I think the idea of putting yourself first, of centering your whole self, your mental health especially, is just such a huge deal because I know so many people who are hustlers. Like, it's never going to be about "Well, what is most important to me is my mental health, and everything else comes second," right? It's "All right, but who's gonna pay these bills though?" Right? And I think part of those difficult decisions and the difficult conversations that we have to have in our professional communities as people of color is that the world won't end if you take that pay cut. The world won't end if you opt to walk away from people, places, and things that don't serve you, right? And if you are honestly in search for what your best self is, what your greatest good is, then it can never be positions and places or people, bosses in particular who reduce you, who shrink you, who are just in general not good for your mental health. But with all that said, I just want to pivot quickly to talk about FreeingShe, your lifestyle blog, and Cubicles to Cocktails because--I mean, I'm interested. I mean, I know that I'm in D.C., but if you're ever coming out this way I just want you to know that I need a ticket. [laughs]Christa: For sure. [laughs] Awesome. So yeah, FreeingShe is my lifestyle blog. I started FreeingShe back in--around November, December 2016, and it started, once again, from a place of--I just felt that my creativity was blocked. I felt so blah around that, you know, that [inaudible] of my life, and I wanted a place where I could express my creativity, or actually to restart exercising my creativity, as well as provide career resources and career perspectives on how to be--how to be success-minded, but how to also be well behind--how to stay well behind your ambition for women of color. And so I started the blog as well as a meet-up group, and so we were meeting monthly, me and the women who would come out, and we were having just really great conversations, Q&A sessions. We would talk about books and articles that we read and just--you know, we had just really formed that community, but the meet-up group eventually started morphing and transforming into something bigger where now it's, like, full-fledged events. So bringing in panelists, having wellness days where we can go do yoga and then have girl talk afterwards instead of partaking, for instance, in Black Friday festivities. So let's do something productive for ourselves. And so one day I'm at happy hour, and I'm, like, thinking to myself, "Wow, I really enjoy cocktails," but I'm also, like, very career-driven, and when I'm at happy hour I, like, really feel like I'm at this equilibrium. I'm, like, being the most authentic. Even if the conversation is about career, I'm still completely enjoying it. And so, you know, as women, especially women of color, we're often--if we're in a traditional workplace in Corporate America, the environment is sometimes sterile, often times sterile. It's very white, very masculine, and it can even be hostile towards us. And so we kind of, like, find ourselves shrinking away from being able to express ourselves in a way that we feel is authentic. We find that there is, like, a lack of outlets for us to have authentic conversations or even conversations that are a little bit more intimate as far as being able to move forward in the career--up the career ladder or being able to connect in a way that we feel is genuine to our coworkers. And so, you know, Cubicles to Cocktails came from a place of intention where I wanted to create an environment where women of color are able to, like--[inaudible]--let me dial back some. Like, imagine drinking a glass of wine or enjoying a very, very well-crafted hand-crafted cocktail. Your sensory--it's, like, a full sensory experience. What are you listening to? Who are you talking to? What does your environment around you look like? How does the drink look? How does it smell? How does the glass feel in your hand? You know? And so I kind of come from planning those events where I want it to be a full sensory experience of us being authentic, being able to be boldly ambitious, being able to embrace what makes us unique as well as being able to invest in our careers and our lives. And so the Cubicles to Cocktails series is just really fun, but it's, like, a really fun way to come back and to just embrace the fact that you're a success-minded career woman of color.Ade: Can I just say that, number one, you are a perfectionist. I can hear it in the level of detail and the level of attention you paid to that entire experience, and I love it. [laughs] Like, I love the passion behind it, and I just can tell that you enjoy what you do. You enjoy one cocktails, but two also owning every aspect of your life, and I think that's a beautiful thing. But before we get out of here, do you have any final shout outs? Any parting words? Any words for the people? How you feelin'?Christa: Yes, right. Definitely. So I just want to give major shout outs and props to you and the Living Corporate team. I think--you know, I listen to NPR and public radio all of the time, and there was definitely a lack of this narrative surrounding minority communities or marginalized communities in traditional workplaces, so Corporate America and more corporate-like environments, and so just to hear our point of view being reflected out there is just such an incredible thing, and it makes me so happy, and so I'm really excited to see the growth of Living Corporate.Ade: Thank you.Christa: Yeah, you're welcome. And as far as final words, you know, people can connect with me over on Instagram. I'm pretty active on Instagram. My Instagram name is HeyChristaClarke, and to follow the event series Cubicles to Cocktails they could also connect on Instagram @CubiclestoCocktails. But thank you so much, Ade, for having me. Ade: Awesome. Most certainly, and please pop up with, like, an event in D.C. Know that I'll be there rocking out. Christa: Nice. [laughs]Ade: [laughs] Well, that does it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram at Living Corporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so if you can spare a dollar a month to sponsor content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America, go ahead and show us some love. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show or some experiences you'd like to share, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Ade, and you've been here listening to Christa, founder of FreeingShe and Cubicles to Cocktails. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, we discuss the topic of Mental Wellness in Corporate America and it's particular impact within black and brown professionals. Dr. Tobi Odunsi and PhD Candidate, Nonye Nwosu-Kanu.Dr. Tobi Odunsi:https://www.instagram.com/whereistobi/Nonye Nwosu-KanuReferenced research during the show:Calling in Blackhttps://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/black-pain-gone-viral-racism-graphic-videos-can-create-ptsd-like-traumahttps://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/minority-mental-health-statistics_us_57a4c099e4b021fd98787185https://www.stress.org/workplace-stress/http://neurocosmopolitanism.com/neurodiversity-some-basic-terms-definitions/http://fortune.com/2014/12/16/brain-differences-autism-workplace-diversity/https://www.fastcompany.com/40421510/what-is-neurodiversity-and-why-companies-should-embrace-itMental Wellness Resources:Open Path Therapy Initiative http://www.apa.org/http://www.abpsi.org/Insight Timer Mental Health First AidMental Wellness Podcasts:Therapy for black girlsWith that being saidThe Affirm PodcastBlack in Therapy PodcastMelanin and Mental HealthBlack Girl in OmMental Matters PodcastTRANSCRIPTLatricia: At the time of this recording, we received recent news that handbag designer Kate Spade and celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain both committed apparent suicide. These tragic deaths have increased awareness and open conversations about the risk associated with mental health illnesses. The CDC says suicide rates have gone up in almost every state since 1999. Suicide is one of the top causes of death in the United States, and a majority of those who died by suicide didn't have a mental health condition but suffered from things like relationships, financial stress, physical and mental health problems, as well as substance abuse. If we dig a little further into the details and look at people of color, we find that mental health illnesses among people of color are similar with those in the general population. However, disparities exist in regard to mental health care services that contribute to people of color not receiving proper support or treatment in order to feel better. Researchers found that black and Hispanic young people are less able to get mental health services than white children and young adults. This happens despite the fact that rates of mental health illnesses are generally consistent across ethnicity, according to a report from Kaiser Health. 62% of non-Hispanic black individuals will experience a major depressive episode, but only a small percentage will actually seek mental health care. Suicide rates among Native-American women have nearly doubled within the last decade. First and second-generation Hispanics are significantly more likely to exhibit symptoms of depression than other immigrants. Additionally, Latino adolescents who experience discrimination related to stress are more likely to experience anxiety, depression, and issues with sleep, according to research conducted by faculty members at New York University. Black and Latinos are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, even though they show symptoms at the same rate as white people. Undiagnosed ADHD on the other hand, particularly its high association with risky behavior, drug use, and depression, can even be deadly. All of these data points about mental health disparities experienced by people of color are only compounded by the reality that the workplace is also a source of stress for a majority of Americans according to multiple studies, such as the American Institute of Stress. So if people of color are generally less likely to have access to quality mental health care services and are also in environments where the average person is often stressed, what can be done to better support mental wellness? My name is Latricia, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about mental wellness in the workplace and what it looks like for people of color to pursue and maintain mental wellness.Latricia: This is such an important topic. A common theme that I found while doing some of the research on this topic is that we start to see racial and ethnic disparities when it comes to access to mental health as early as adolescence, and these disparities often become exacerbated over time, so it's no surprise when people of color transition into adulthood and there are significant disparities in the severity of their mental health condition that impact their experiences in the workplace.Zach: It's interesting that you bring up adolescence. I had never really thought about the impact of untreated conditions people are usually diagnosed with during childhood, such as autism and ADHD.Latricia: Right. When we do actually talk about mental health, which isn't often enough, we primarily focus on psychiatric conditions such as anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and we often leave out neurodevelopmental conditions such as ASD, which stands for autism spectrum disorder, and ADHD. Zach: I think it's important for us to discuss a broad spectrum of mental health conditions so that we can raise awareness and understanding about the diversity of mental health conditions and ways we can be more inclusive when it comes to making sure everyone has access to the care that they need to manage their mental well-being, you know?Latricia: I totally agree, and on the topic of access, as we were doing some of the research and planning for the show I thought about my own engagement with mental health resources, and I realized that I haven't really been as engaged in this space as I could have been. I mean, I'm working in Corporate America. I have access to quality care, but when I do go through those bouts of depression or anxiety, I kind of just work through it and assume, you know, "This is just gonna go away." I've never thought, "Maybe this is the time for me to seek a mental health provider and find out, you know, are there other ways for me to cope besides working it off or, you know, just putting it off?" And so just going through some of the statistics, I'm seeing that this is actually very common amongst people of color. I don't know if you remember this viral tweet that went out. An employee actually reached out to their CEO and said, "I need to take a day off of work for my mental health," and the CEO responded applauding her for taking a day off for mental health. And I've never really thought about that before. Like, taking off work for mental health. I'll take off work if I'm really, really sick. Like, throwing up or something. TMI. [laughs] But I don't take it off just to, like, settle myself mentally.Zach: Yeah. I remember when that went viral, and I can tell you I've never even thought to do that. Never with that type of intention, you know? And it's just interesting to me because I've definitely been very stressed out at work, but my default is just to push through it. Like, I'm stressed, but that's work. You know, I'll grind. And, you know, we're consultants, so it's not out of the ordinary for us to work 65+-hour weeks, including weekends. Whatever. There's a certain pride to it though, to be honest. Like, to say, "Yeah, I'm working." "Oh, yeah, no. I'm working." "I'm working." "I'm working," and it's almost like--I don't know. Out of nowhere, you start just feeling down or really exhausted mentally. I'm just more prone to be frustrated or annoyed at stuff that doesn't matter during these times. It's almost like I'm borrowing against credit, but that credit is my personal wellness, because all those extra hours, awkward exchanges, crazy deadlines, tone-deaf comments from my boss, they all just come rushing back.Latricia: Hm. That's an interesting analogy. So when you say credit, basically you're saying your account's in the negative once you're trying to work through some of the mental conditions that you're dealing with.Zach: Right. And my point is I definitely understand that mental health matters and mental wellness matters. Of course we have the common points around how mental care in the black and brown communities are ostracized and how we're told to pray it away and stuff like that.Latricia: Yeah, that's also the case in the Nigerian community. Some of y'all may not know I'm Nigerian-American, and having conversations about mental health and depression, it's very taboo. If you're dealing with some of those things, then you're crazy or you're possessed or it's some type of juju, as we say, and there's a lot of stigma when it comes to going to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. And so it's just something--growing up, I wasn't exposed to this idea of seeking access to mental health care.Zach: Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because on the promo trailer for Living Corporate we talked about the fact that we won't always have all the answers, right? And this is a situation where we definitely don't have, you know, any answers really, you know?Latricia: Yeah, I totally agree. We really don't, and it would be great if we could bring a guest who is a mental health expert, like a person of color who has graduated from medical school and is currently in a residency program at a top five program for psychiatry in the nation. Or perhaps we have a little bonus this episode and bring an additional guest, someone who is a Ph.D candidate in developmental neuropsychology whose research focuses on autism spectrum disorder and its impact on people of color?Zach: Oh, you mean like our two guests, Dr. Tobi Odunsi and Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu? Zach and Latricia: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns] Come on, Sound Man. Drop 'em, and give me some extras 'cause we got an extra guest on the show. Come on.[Sound Man obliges]Latricia: All right. So next we're going to go into our interviews with our guests, Dr. Tobi Odunsi and Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu. Hey, y'all. This is Latricia, and today we're talking about a really important topic, which is mental health in the workplace. We're really excited to have two guests on the show today. We have Dr. Tobi Odunsi, who is a resident physician in psychiatry, and we also have Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu, who studies neurodevelopmental and cognitive psychology in children. So we're really excited to have a conversation about mental health and self-care and how you can make sure that you're managing issues such as depression and anxiety and stress, but we also want to expand the conversation a little bit more and talk about this concept of neurodiversity, and so we're just gonna go ahead and jump right in. Tobi, it's so nice to have you on the show. She's gonna kick us off, and she's gonna talk to us a little bit more about psychiatry. So Tobi, could you go ahead and introduce yourself?Tobi: Yeah. Thanks, Latricia. Like Latricia said, my name is Tobi Odunsi. I'm really excited for what you guys are doing on this show. I'm so excited to talk about mental health today with you guys. I am a second-year psychiatry resident, and I study psychiatry, which is a branch of medicine that focuses on diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of mental, emotional, and behavioral disorders, things that range from anxiety and depression all the way to autism, ADHD, and PTSD. So I'm really excited.Latricia: Cool, cool. So, as you know, this conversation today is about mental wellness in Corporate America, and really within the context of underrepresented groups. Also, we're expanding it again--like I said, different neurological presentations and developmental presentations and kind of how mental health is intersection across all of those identities, and earlier in the show we shared some statistics around some of those disparities that we talked about, specifically some racial disparities that we see in mental health and mental health practices. So let me ask you this. You know, being an ethnic minority, what inspired you to go into mental health? Were there some disparities that kind of sparked your interest and you wanted to study?Tobi: This is a very, very good question. I get this a lot actually. So my interest in psychiatry actually started before I went into medical school. It's three--I'm gonna go with it's three different things that got me interested in psychiatry. I noticed that I am really, really interested in why human beings behave the way that they do, so that interest was there. The second thing was that I have a brother who is on the autism spectrum, and I was just interested in seeing what--you know, how do these mental health workers work with that? And third thing was I noticed that there was an under-representation of black or African--'cause I'm Nigerian--psychiatrists in the field, and I wanted to be able to be a part of that, and I also felt like if I was going to be in medicine I would make the most difference by being in psychiatry. So just a short, brief version of why I decided to go into psychiatry. So all of those things together were the reason. My brother, just general interest, and where I could--I felt like I could make the most difference in medicine.Latricia: Definitely, and--you know, some of those statistics that we shared earlier in the show, they're--it's really frustrating, and it's hard to really grasp because we see a lot of--we see a high prevalence of mental health issues in black and brown communities specifically, but we're not seeing a lot of people going and getting help and counseling and therapy. So can you talk a little bit about the stigma that's associated with mental health in black and brown communities?Tobi: Yeah. And a lot of this is gonna be more, like, personal opinion and maybe some research to it, but I believe a lot of black and brown communities, the way we are raised or the way our culture is we believe in, I want to say, saving face sometimes, and also, you know, very religious backgrounds, and so there is that stigma to mental health issues. I remember, you know, a couple years ago actually, one of my family members said, "Nigerians are not depressed," and, you know, I think that is a huge myth. Actually, there are statistics that show that, you know, blacks or African-Americans, about 20% of them are likely to have more serious mental health issues because they don't get help until they're, like, critically ill, and I think a lot of that is because of the stigma behind it. A lot of people think you can pray things away and, you know, mental health stuff isn't real. "This is not something that affects us. We don't talk to other people about our issues. We just pray to God," and so I'm unclear exactly where this stems from, but I think it's just the way our culture is, and we're very religious, and it's just kind of things go with us.Latricia: Yeah, I totally agree. I can relate to that as well, being Nigerian, and it's just not something that people are very comfortable talking about. Depression--again, you can just pray these things away, but one of my questions is, you know, we understand kind of what some of those core values are in some of those communities. What is the mental health community doing to make sure that they're able to reach those groups? So if their values are prayer, or if there's issues with, you know, just being comfortable and being open, like, what is the mental health community doing now to try to reach out and address the stigma?Tobi: Hm, let me think about this one for a little bit. Psychiatrists get together and have meetings. They're putting together different documents or data, you know, about underrepresented minorities in the country, and, you know, the mental health disparities in those countries, and kind of--in those groups I mean, and putting out data to inform people. And I think this could vary depending on the psychiatrist, but educating yourself a lot about the community, putting yourself out there educating people, because I think the problem and the thing with stigma is people are not educated enough. And so people holding, you know, different--what do you call those things? Not stereotypes. What do you call those things? Like, [inaudible]? Yeah, a health fair. You know, going to churches, 'cause there's a guy in my residency program who goes to a church and talks to people in the church about mental health situations because a lot of black people are in the church. So going to the church, talking about depression, PTSD, trauma, racial-based trauma. Going to the communities where, you know, minorities gather is a way to kind of reach out to them and let them know that, you know, you have this struggle, this is normal, and there's ways for you to get these things treated.Latricia: For myself personally, I have a master's degree in public health. I consider myself to be pretty well-educated, went to really good schools, but I'm still even a little I guess unfamiliar with the mental health community, and based on conversations that I've had with people, one of the common I guess issues that a lot of minorities face when they get into Corporate America is this idea that you're the only one so you need to make sure you go above and beyond to prove that you deserve to be there. And it causes a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress, and you'll see a lot of minorities tend to burn out early because they don't know how to deal with that stress. And these are communities that are typically more highly-educated. So my question for you is can you address this idea that you have to overwork? And more so, could you focus on kind of like the impact that can have on your body, on your health, on your mental wellness? 'Cause I don't think we really, truly understand that this can really cause psychological, physiological damage to your health, but we're so focused on overworking, proving ourselves. So could you speak a little bit on maybe what you've seen with clients or just maybe what could be the physiological impact of that?Tobi: Good question. So I'd like to say--and I kind of agree, you know, being a minority in a workplace, you often feel like you have to work twice as hard to get what your other counterparts get in the workplace, and that can be very, very stressful on your body. A lot of times we say, you know, the things that are important are you getting good sleep, exercise and eating well, and if these things aren't in tune you start to get some stress on your body because, you know, you have a cortisol dump or a cortisol overload and you're stressed out.Latricia: You're right. You do need the support from your family, your friends, your network, and your employers in a sense. So it's important to know about your diagnosis. It's important to understand, you know, what this means for you moving forward and how you're going to continue to live a normal life at work and just in your personal life. And so I guess that leads me to my last question, which is really just about maintenance long-term. So some of these diagnoses can be long-term from my understanding. Like, you could be diagnosed with bipolar, and it's probably something that you're gonna have to deal with for the rest of your life. So could you talk a little bit more about just that long-term maintenance and establishing, you know, a state where you are mentally healthy? Or maybe somebody may call mental health happiness. Just talking about how you just maintain.Tobi: Yeah. That's a very, very good question, and a lot of times when I'm speaking with patients or just people in general I often like to compare mental health issues with diabetes. They're both chronic illnesses, and a lot of times not only is a patient dealing with that, their family members are dealing with that. And so in order to be successful, you need to continue to follow up with your mental health providers. You need to keep taking your medications. You need to engage in activities that make you happy or provide some type of benefit for you mentally, like exercising or meditation or some type of hobby. I always tell people, just because, you know, you checked your sugars today, when you have diabetes, and they're great, that doesn't mean you're gonna stop taking your insulin. The same thing applies with mental health issues. Just because you're having a good day or you had several amount of weeks where you're doing well, that doesn't mean you're gonna stop going to see your mental health provider or stop taking your medicine or stop engaging in all of those activities that you've been doing to make sure you keep a normal, healthy life, you know? You need to keep doing those things every day so that you're able to continue to be functional in society. Stress with the body, you know, can increase your cortisol level, which is a stress hormone. You know, either waking or not sleeping well and overall just not feeling good at all, and so what I try to talk to patients about or work with patients on is ways to cope with that stress. So there's different things that you can do without necessarily getting into medication. Exercise. I know a lot of people are like, "What? Exercise?" There's been studies that actually show that exercise works just as well as SSRIs, which are the first line for a lot of depressive and anxiety disorders. So exercising can make a huge difference in how you're feeling or dealing with stress. Also sleep, which a lot of times when you're under stress you're not sleeping so well, but being able to get a good amount of sleep can help with whatever stress issues you have. Now, let's say you're not the exercise type or you just have poor sleeping habits. What can you do? Well, meditation. One app that I use is called Insight Timer, and I recommend this to a lot of people because it has different kinds of meditations that you can use, and just being able to take a 5-minute break when you're at work when you feel like everything is overwhelming, everyone is coming to you making you do all of these things, just go to the app, put in, you know, "work break," and it has a little bit of a meditation. 5 to 10 minutes. It can kind of calm your hormones down, get your stress levels a little bit down, and you can get back into the workplace and do what you gotta do.Latricia: Yeah, those are all really important things. Making sure you're getting your exercise, you're getting your sleep, you're taking those mini-breaks in order to prevent, you know, exacerbating the issue like you said. Cortisol levels, all this science stuff, but it can really lead to a more serious condition if you're not taking care of yourself and allowing yourself to just overwork and overstress. So my next question for you is when do you know that you may need to see a mental health provider?Tobi: Good question. I get this question a lot from a lot of people. And so mental health--I'd like to start with that--ranges, like we said in the beginning of the podcast, from anxiety to ADHD to autism to PTSD. Depending on what you are experiencing, things become a problem when they start to affect your daily life, they start to affect your functioning, they start to affect you being able to go to work, being able to hang out with friends. That's one of the big signs, I would say, of when you need to get help. So I would start with, like, depression because a lot of people tend to relate to this or understand this. Sadness is a normal emotion. Just like you can be happy, you can be angry, you can be sad. It is normal. Now, when does it start to get into depression? Depression is when you feel like this is lingering. With sadness, for example, let's say you got into an argument with a friend and you feel sad about it. That can maybe last for an hour during that day, maybe you think about it the next day, the day after, and it kind of goes away, but with depression that kind of lingers. That sadness stays there. You suddenly don't feel like doing things that you like to do anymore. You suddenly don't feel like you want to be around people. Maybe in some situations you start to feel like life isn't worth living. A lot of times when you start to notice those signs you start to think to yourself, "Maybe I need to see somebody." So there's the normal stuff, like the sadness, and there's the stuff that is kind of far away from the norm where you're not being yourself. So you're withdrawn from people and you're starting to think it might be better if you're not alive anymore. Usually that's when I would say, "Okay, you need to go see somebody," and sometimes maybe the feeling of sadness might linger for a week, but if it's going on a little bit more than a week I would suggest, okay, going to talk to somebody, and they could kind of evaluate you or kind of go through some of those things that you're thinking and see if there's maybe some type of depression or anxiety of something causing you to feel the way that you feel.Latricia: I think using depression as an example is really good. I think a lot of people can definitely relate to that, a lot of people in our audience as well. You know, when you're in your 20s, that's typically when people experiences sometimes their first psychotic break, so it's very important to be aware for some of those signs that you mentioned and actually take action to see a health care provider. So my next question is how do you select a health care provider? I know for me--I've done my research just trying to look for a mental health provider, and I still haven't been able to find one yet. I have decent insurance through my job, and I've been looking for a Ph.D, an MD psychologist or psychiatrist that I can go see, but I'm also looking for one that's a person of color and, like, as you mentioned before, you don't see a lot of people of color in that field. So could you talk a little bit more about, like, strategies on how to find somebody that you could relate to? I know there's other levels of psychology. Master's and other forms. Like, could you just explain that breakdown?Tobi: Yes. This is actually one of my favorite things to talk about. There's so many people that could provide mental health services. Like Latricia was saying, you have your psychiatrists, which is a medical doctor. Goes to medical school, does a psychiatry residency. They provide, you know, medication treatment, and they also provide therapy services. And then you have your clinical psychologists, a lot of them whom have a Ph.D in clinical psychology, or some people have a, you know, Ph.D in education with maybe a concentration in some therapy services. You have your licensed professional counselors. You have your social workers, a lot of them with masters in that and have training in therapy, and you also have your nurses or nurse practitioners that also do that kind of stuff. There's different ways to find people. The American Psychiatric Association has a Find A Provider tab where you can look up psychiatrists in your area I believe by zip code, and you can find a provider on there. Same with the American Psychological Association. You can go on there and find that. Some friends we've worked on looking at, I believe it's the Black Psychologists Association. I can't remember the exact one, but if you looked up, like--yeah, ABPsi, and they have a Find A Provider tab, and you can find people on there actually if you're more particular about what your person looks like. Also, recently I stumbled upon something called the Open Path Therapy Initiative, which is a nation-wide--so it's a non-profit organization that has partnered with different mental health providers in all 50 states, and it's--this is mostly for people with no insurance or are under-insured, and if you go on there, you pay a one-time $49 fee, and you can find many providers in your area by just putting in your zip code. I actually know somebody that's used this service and told me when she looked it up she found, like, six black therapists in her area. And so that is something that appears to be very legit in finding a provider. I know it's very, very difficult to find a psychiatrist or psychologist without, you know, asking someone else who's used those services before, but another thing that people can do if you have insurance and you often use your insurance is your insurance has a list of providers that provide services for you, and so if your insurance covers behavioral health services, you should be able to find mental health providers that accept your insurance if they do so. And for those that don't accept insurance, you know, you can also Google and find some providers, but those resources I mentioned earlier are pretty legit in terms of, you know, providers that are out there that can provide mental health services for you, and in my opinion, and this is not, like, a science-based type of thing, all of these people are trained and have to take exams to be licensed to do therapy or provide, you know, mental health services to people, and so whether you pick a psychiatrist versus a psychologist or a social worker or a professional counselor, you're going to get good service.Latricia: That's all--that's good stuff, so we'll make sure we list all of those resources in the description of this podcast as well as on our show notes online so everyone that's listening can go and check that out. And I'm glad you made that clarification. I've been looking for doctorates not knowing that, you know, a master's degree level social worker, an LPC, could provide those same services if I'm looking for therapy or counseling, and that really does expand your options, and so that's also really important. Once you do go through that process of working with a mental health provider, you may be diagnosed with some type of mental health issue. Can you talk a little bit about what that's like?Tobi: Our job as a provider is to be supportive and to educate the patient on what their mental health disorder is, what does this mean for you. As a provider, what I often tend to do--especially if they have no experience in this--is explain "What does this mean to me?" So discussing with them what does depression mean or anxiety mean or bipolar disorder mean or borderline personality disorder mean, and how does it affect, you know, my life moving forward is what I try to do for them. Latricia: So on the topic of being the only one at work or the other at work, that brings me to this video that our college classmate put out about two years ago. Some of y'all that are listening in right now, you may know Evelyn from the Internets, and if you don't know Evelyn from the Internets, I don't know, like, where you've been, but you need to maybe even pause the pod--you need to maybe even pause the podcast and look up Evelyn from the Internets. She is hilarious. So maybe about two years ago, Evelyn put out a video, and it was after a series of videos that went viral about black death. So we remember Trayvon Martin. We remember Alton Sterling, and we remember seeing lots of images online and lots of debates online, and if I go back to that time--and even today we're still seeing it. I try to stay away and not even click on it sometimes, but when I go back to those moments, I remember just feeling down and going back to work and no one's talking about it, and if they are talking about it it's--they're seeing it from a perspective that is very narrow-minded, and so Evelyn put out a video called Calling In Black. So on those days where you just feel like "This is a lot. This is a lot to deal with. This is a lot for me to process right now. I'm going through--" sometimes going through trauma or PTSD, and "I don't think I can function at work today. I don't think I want to be around people who don't care about this issue," and so the video was about calling in black. And we'll drop a little clip. So Sound Man, drop a little clip so they can hear what we're talking about.Evelyn: Sometimes I need a minute, okay? And that's where calling in black would be so clutch. "Oh, no, no. It's not contagious. I need a solid day to reaffirm my humanity to myself, so I'll see you tomorrow." "Oh, no, no. It's not allergies, it's just I just watched the police choke somebody to death and I know they're not gonna go to jail for it, so I'll see you at 11." "I have a slight fever... boiling with the rage of the police killing my people." Latricia: So Tobi, that video--it's funny, right? Evelyn, she's hilarious. So, I mean, what do you think about that? This idea of calling in black and doing that to preserve your mental health.Tobi: Honestly, like, I might not necessarily call it "calling in black," but--you know, there's a reason they give you guys days off or, you know, sick days, and if you need to take a mental health day I am all for it. I totally believe that in order to function 100% your mind has to be right. I always tell people if your mind isn't right, you don't sleep well, you don't eat, you don't do well. Mind isn't right, physical body isn't right? You can't function at work, and so if there is something that affects your mental health and you feel like you just can't function, take that day off. I mean, there's all of those days there. What are you gonna do by going to work if you don't feel great and, you know, you're sitting there in your cubicle or whatever it is, office space, sitting there angry, broiling, you know, about the situation, and there's no one you can talk to. Go home, or stay home, and take that day off. Get yourself right because in order for you to be 100% where you need to be, you need to take that break. Go hang out with other black people and talk to somebody about the situation. Go talk to your therapist about it. Go work out. I am totally for taking those days off. As a matter of fact, you know, I know I don't have that many days to take off, but I try to take, you know, one day off at least a month just to give myself a break because in order for your physical body to be good, your mental health has to be good. If you're not mentally right--and I know I've said this multiple times--you're not able to do anything else. So I'm all for it. I agree with Evelyn. I will call in black whenever I need to and take the time that I need to whenever I have to.Latricia: I agree. I mean, working in Corporate America, it's such a fast-paced and competitive environment, and I am guilty of not using my PTO. Like, I will max out my PTO and never use it, but I do have those days where I'm at work and I'm like, "I'm not functioning right. I should've just taken off and taken a break." And so--yes, we're gonna let y'all know, everyone that's listening, if you need to just take a mental health day, whether you have a diagnosis or you don't have a diagnosis, take that time for yourself. You have your sick days, your PTO, for a reason. Take the time off. It's not good for your health to put yourself in very stressful environments when, you know, you need time to cope. You need time to sit and just, you know, deal with what you're going through. So thank you for that, thank you for that. All right. Yes, that's so important, just maintaining your mental health and maintaining what's happiness to you is gonna be very important for you to be sustainable, especially in a corporate and fast-paced environment. You need to make sure that you're performing at your best and you're at full health. And so thank you so much, Tobi, for just talking to us about mental health and just making it very easy to comprehend and understand, 'cause I know for a lot of people it's foreign territory, whether they're educated or not. It's foreign to so many people, especially underrepresented groups, and so I really do appreciate you for taking your time out. I know residency life is no joke. I know y'all work crazy hours, so I'm so grateful that you had the time to sit with us, and we're gonna make sure we leave all of your contact information below. But before we let you go, Tobi, do you have any shout outs that you'd like to give? Like, if you want to shout out your YouTube channel, your Instagram, let them know.Tobi: Oh, yes. Okay, yes. So I'd like to share my Instagram page with you guys. It is @WhereIsTobi, where is T-O-B-I, and from time to time I will share either mental health facts or do some mental health trivia. In the long term, I'm working on creating a mental health page where we can talk about everything mental health, whether it's bipolar disorder or autism or schizophrenia, whatever it is you'd like to be. I'm all about educating people on mental health because, like Latricia said, a lot of people don't understand it, and I think, you know, what you don't know can actually hurt you. So I will be working on that, but in the meantime y'all can follow my personal Instagram page WhereIsTobi. Thank you.Latricia: Thank you so much, Tobi. That was such a great interview. It was really good to just, at a high level, understand mental health. How do you find a practitioner? If you do become diagnosed with a mental health illness, you know, this is what you can do to make sure that you maintain your health long-term, which is really important. So we're doing something a little different. We have our second interviewer, Ph.D candidate Nonye Nwosu, and she's gonna talk to us a little bit more about this concept of neurodiversity. So before we dive into that, Nonye, could you just introduce yourself and let us know your background?Nonye: Hi. Okay, I'm Nonye Nwosu. I am a Ph.D, a doctoral candidate, in developmental psychology. I will be obtaining my Ph.D at Georgia State University, and my research [inaudible] are in early development. Early child development, language development, the role of parental responsivity and essentially early childhood experiences and intervention and ramifications that that has long-term. And so I have always had a great passion centered around mental health, psychology. Psychology has been a passion for a very long time. I've always known I wanted to be a psychologist, and focus on talking with people, interacting with people. I've always really enjoyed learning about people's experiences and kind of, on my own, mapping what that means into how they present themselves and who they become. So the topic today is really close to my heart and very important.Latricia: Yes, I totally agree. I think when we talk about mental health--when we do talk about it, which is not very often, a lot of the times the focus is on depression and anxiety, bipolar disorder, and we're not always bringing into the conversation other forms of maybe neurological disorders or conditions that can also impact your experiences in the workplace, and I've been reading a lot about this new concept of neurodiversity, which talks about the diversity in neurological abilities of people, and so we see those that are so-called neurotypical, and then those that are neuroatypical, so people with autism or ADHD or autism spectrum disorder, and, you know, we don't really talk a lot about how those conditions impact your experiences in the workplace. And so, Nonye, could you just talk a little bit more about neurodiversity? What is the movement all about?Nonye: Right. So that's a good question, and I think I failed to mention that autism spectrum disorder is really the central part of my research work and my passion, and autism is--it's a condition that has really come to the forefront, especially within society, that we have more awareness of and more acknowledgment of and more discussions surrounding, and interestingly enough the research is kind of lagging behind and putting enough information out there regarding the transitionary period. So early adulthood, late adulthood, many people don't get diagnosed until much later. So it's not that the research is scant, but there's a lot of inform--we've got gaps in the literature and in the science regarding what this topic around autism, neurodiversity, means, but neurodiversity kind of more globally. And I think--so I think that it's something we're, again, put more acknowledgment and focus on and understanding the promises and the good fortune of appreciating that we can put people--people are really different. People have got a varying spectrum of ability and disability, but more so kind of ability, and they've got a varying degree of things that they can bring to all kinds of fields, and figuring out how we can utilize people's skills and talents. So I see neurodiversity as really being this hedge, this torch-bearer for how we're going to really move forward and trudge through the trenches and get to the bottom of how we can be more inclusive and more appreciative of the things that people are bringing to the table. A lot of the things that we talk about within my field are how to get--you know, it kind of make me think of, like, Solange's album A Seat at the Table. We want to be able to give everyone an opportunity to have a seat at the table, you know? A place in the workforce, and to be useful, and I talk about autism a lot because it is my research area, but one number that I hear quite often--I hear the number 80%, and I've heard around 60-80%. 60-80% of functional individuals who are on the spectrum are unemployed and seen as being unemployable, and that is essentially because we haven't acknowledged or entirely appreciated this topic of neurodiversity, being able to see individuals as neurodivergent, and what we say there is essentially that we have this idea of how people should be thinking, how people should be talking, how people should be presenting themselves across fields, across jobs, across vocations, and perhaps we shouldn't be so stringent with our guidelines, and we can appreciate that, okay, just because this person doesn't have strengths in interpersonal social communication or, you know, isn't the best at giving research presentations, well, perhaps maybe we can--we can utilize the fact that they're excellent coders. They can pay great attention to detail. They can sit endlessly for hours and bang out numbers and provide us with all kinds of statistics instead of just assuming that, well, because they don't want to be talking at the water cooler with everybody or because at lunch they sit by themselves that they're kind of worthless or that they make people uncomfortable because they're, you know, socially withdrawn, but more so neurodiversity acknowledges that everybody can have a place in the workforce, a seat at the table, and we can make them a part of the team and utilize their skill sets and perhaps even our deficits in our skill sets as well.Latricia: That's all really important, and you used a lot of terminology that everyone may not totally be familiar with, so could you kind of break down what some of the language means? So what does it mean to be neurodivergent or neurodiverse or neurotypical? Could you kind of break that down for us?Nonye: Okay, so--yeah, that's a very important point. We don't want to get too--we can't not acknowledge that jargon is being used here. So I think--for me, my understanding of neurodiversity is this movement--excuse me, this theoretical framework, this belief that individuals come to the table with a varying amount of cognitive ability, cognitive skill, and fluency and behavior, and--again, it centers really around cognitive ability. So this notion, if you break it down--you know, neuro being, you know, brain, biologically brain, and diversity being different, that we've got a varying amount of skill and deficits in different areas, and it's not just the people who have got these labels or who are termed with biological disorders that have things that are different about them or quote unquote wrong with them. So acknowledging that we've all got things, and it can mean anything, really. Neurodivergent, what I'm talking about there is this--you know, taking from anything. So when you've got this kind of baseline or this blueprint for how things are supposed to be typically--so we talk about neurotypicality, individuals who are essentially--and this is really rudimentary and really rough because, as Tobi has talked about, Dr. Odunsi's talked about, like, there is a varying amount of I guess ability. One of the things that you often mention with mental health or mental illness is, you know, you're considering something a mental illness when it's become--it's leading to distress or dysfunction or disability, right? So I've always had a hard time understanding neurotypicality because while people are presenting themselves to be functional, it doesn't entirely mean that they are, right? I guess essentially the literature recognizes--the society recognizes neurotypicality as people who are essentially just normal, maybe people who are not on the spectrum. People who don't have these tangible or visible illnesses or disabilities that disallow them to participate in everyday life. And then neurodivergent being related to the neurotypicality in that they're essentially--they're essentially diverging from that framework or that blueprint that you have in understanding what is normal. So when we talk a lot in my field about development, we look at it as being typical or atypical, and I see neurodivergency as being something atypical that's kind of moving away from how we see neurotypicality. So an individual who's on the spectrum may be considered neurodivergent because they may have a very unique way of approaching problems or a very unique approach to working, and we may consider them to be neurodivergent.Latricia: Could you also list some of the--Nonye: Individuals who may be considered neurodivergent, yeah, may present with, you know, ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Individuals who, you know, maybe even have generalized anxiety disorders, they'll be the people who kind of have a global, pervasive, impairing weight. Like, anxiety is really impairing to them, across circumstances, events, situations. I would see people who have Down syndrome as well being involved in kind of adding to that neurodivergency, people who are Fragile X, and if you think more about when people who maybe we're not talking about, neurodevelopmental or a neurobiological disorder. People who--neurodivergency can--it can be seen in, like I said, generalized anxiety disorders. You can see it in people perhaps who have OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. People who just have a different approach, I believe, in seeing things and thinking about things.Latricia: Great. Thank you so much for just kind of explaining to us some of these terms and the different ways that people may present themselves cognitively in society and obviously in the workplace as well. I think it's important for everyone that's listening in--whether you identify or would be classified as neurotypical or neuroatypical or neurodivergent, it's important to be aware of these things because we talk a lot in Corporate America about diversity and inclusion, and, you know, race and gender and sexuality, those tend to be the biggest focus point, and neurodiversity, with it being quote unquote a newer movement, it's not something that we talk about a lot, and these conversations can be very difficult because we're having to--we're having to look at work differently, and we're having to really focus in now on people's strengths and how we can--how we can tap into those strengths and improve our businesses, because as you were mentioning before, you may be neuroatypical, but you're a really good coder, or you can sit for--like, sit for hours and crunch numbers, but, you know, you may have language issues. You may, you know, stutter, or other forms of things that are cognitively impaired, but a lot of times we write you off because of that, and we're not truly maximizing everyone's potential in the workplace, and there is a true business case for maximizing potential obviously, right? So could you talk a little bit about workplace relationships? 'Cause I think everyone needs to hear this. Based on your experience, you know, and your research or with your clients that you've worked with, how has the transition into the workplace been for those who are maybe neuroatypical? Do you see increased social anxiety? Do you see those people tend to be outcasted by employers or by other employees? What have you seen just in your research? 'Cause I think it's important for us to talk about this and have a better understanding.Nonye: So much of existing within the corporate stratosphere and the workforce has to do with how you can promote yourself, interact with people and just exist, right? And not even just exist. Essentially it's just how you're kind of able to relate to people, and so for these individuals we've seen lots of things with--and especially when you're having a much more difficult time than those who could be just as similar as you, but on the appearance level, color level, not look exactly similar to you. So a lot of my interest has been in minority populations as well, and so I kind of consume myself with that literature, and--Latricia: Right. I totally agree when you talk a little bit about the culture of Corporate America. Of course every company is different and every company has its own I guess cultural fit, but there are some standards I guess in Corporate America, and I'm not saying standard by meaning "This is the best practice," but there are certain ways that we operate in Corporate America. And again, talking about diversity and inclusion, you know, what are we doing to kind of rethink some of our cultural norms and think about who's being excluded and what talent are we missing out on because we've created a culture that makes certain people feel uncomfortable? And we talk about race, we talk about gender. You know, what other social norms are making other populations uncomfortable, and what can we do in Corporate America to make the place more inclusive? So that leads me to my next question about just creating environments that people who are neurodivergent can feel comfortable in. So could you speak a little bit about what is happening right now that you've maybe come across in your research to make the workplace more inclusive to those who are neurodivergent? Nonye: Right. That's--I think we're--again, like I've said, science, the world, society, can be behind in getting with the times if you will, but I see promise and initiatives and efforts that are being made. One thing--there's a couple things that jump to mind, and you do happen to see this in bigger cities kind of where you've got a big university or organizational presence and maybe more non-profits, but I have participated in something called the LEND Fellowship, Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental Disabilities Fellowship, twice, and more recently one that I participated in was helmed by the Center for Leadership and Disability at Georgia State University where they task themselves--they're taking very seriously hiring, employing, and getting what we call self-advocates, individual advocates out there to talk about their experiences. One thing I heard a lot about was getting a seat at the table and not just having representatives come in and talk about your experience when you have the very right ability to talk about your experience yourself. So you see that a lot happening in more educational settings and maybe more scientific organizations and agencies as well, where they're trying to make efforts to employ, to get people in councils, who represent the issues that they're discussing. Parents have been really, really excellent in not only advocating for their children within school settings and systems and more in their communities but on the legislative level in Congress and Capitol Hill as well, and I think--another thing that jumps to mind too is universities who have--like, Georgia Tech has, like, the Excel Program. People who are really trying to promote and prioritize not even just bringing individuals to have a seat at the table and talk about their experiences but presenting them with very structured opportunities and experiences where they can matriculate into the workforce and into areas of which that they feel successful in, and not even just workforce, but Excel for example having these inclusive environments where you're making them a part of the university, the campus life atmosphere, and having them be a part of discussions that are being had around not just what's going on with them but broader discussions, and politics and workplace life and exercise. That's one thing that I liked about that program as well. So these are for individuals [inaudible], and what I also appreciate about this is--this is a range, a spectrum of ability, and less about kind of I.Q. but more about adaptive kind of daily living, functioning. So not just how well you're doing in your classes, but shifting the emphasis to things like, "Are you able to get up in the morning, brush your teeth, put your clothes on, and go to classes?" Or "Are you able to"--if you can do all those things, you know, if you're highly academically intelligent, "Are you able to be organized, keep a schedule, and show up to work on time?" These kinds of things, and if not we can help you. And including the community within that. So again, I think about Excel, but they've done things where they've got, you know, [inaudible], and there are a number of companies who have the--who are [inaudible], like Delta, Chick-fil-A, and talking to these individuals, seeing what they're interested in, seeing what they're good at, and giving them opportunities to be a part of these bigger organizations and contribute what they can contribute. Like I said, these are happening in bigger cities, and so that can be a little bit--that doesn't essentially entirely promote this idea of inclusivity, but efforts are being made, and I think it starts with acknowledgement and understanding things like what this podcast is doing and recognizing the varying spectrum of ability and contribution. [inaudible] yourself if you can [inaudible] that person. I met a man out here who is the district manager for a Chick-fil-A. He owns two Chick-fil-A franchises and makes an important focus on hiring individuals who have disabilities and who, if they can't be at the front register interacting with individuals, giving them something to do, and these individuals want to work. They want to be a part, and they usually do not take for granted the fact that someone has given them some kind of opportunity and someone is willing to work with them. And sometimes they may require extra effort. Maybe someone who's gonna spend a little bit more time training them, who could look out for them and watch out for them, but I think it can be acknowledged that if the story has been they can't contribute to the workforce or they can't contribute to life and we're not seeing that, then things can and should change.Latricia: That's great. You listed off a lot of really good resources, and again, in addition to what Tobi listed off, we will list all of those resources in our show notes so people can go in and see, you know, what's being done out there to create more inclusive environments, what's going on in our community. You know, do we have access to universities that we can partner with that we can learn from? Because this is a topic that if you're not--you know, if you don't have someone close to you that may be affected by this it's not really on a lot of people's radars, and I really liked some of those stories that you shared, just to know that, you know, we're trying to work on creating a more open culture. So having people who may present with some of these neuroatypical disorders to speak out and be open about their experiences and having, you know, more advocacy is all gonna be really important because the awareness is where I personally I feel we're lacking. I haven't heard a lot of conversations about this in my experience in over three years now in Corporate America. It's not something that we've really talked about in the diversity and inclusion discussion. So again, you know, it's great to hear that, you know, there are organizations out there that are trying to push this forward, and we really want to get this message out to our audience so that they can go back to their organizations and start to really think about how we can create a more open culture, how can we raise more awareness, and what can we do structurally to help make sure that everyone feels welcome? Like, what can we do with our workspaces? What can we do in terms of, like, how we socialize, and how can we be more aware? So thank you so much for educating it us on this topic. I know you come from a Ph.D background. Like, you can go into all the science and stuff like that, but you were able to present it in a way that's easily digestible, and hopefully everyone was able to take something away from this discussion. So great. Well, thank you so much again, Nonye. It was so nice to have you on the show. Again, you and Dr. Odunsi, very busy people, so it's really great that y'all are taking time to give back and talk to people about this very important issue.Nonye: Thank you so much for having us, Latricia, and I'm appreciative too for any opportunity to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly honestly, and to figure out how we can find a place and--[inaudible] like you said, the most important aspect is awareness, and, you know, awareness does not exist without dialogue and discussion and the ability to be vulnerable and have discussions and learn from that.Latricia: I totally agree. So before we let you go, do you have any shout outs?Nonye: I want to give a shout out to Living Corporate because this is a big deal. [both laugh]Latricia: Thank you.Nonye: What you guys are doing is very--I mean, it's a very unique approach that you're taking to having a very important discussion and really capitalizing, I think, on a number of kind of different zeitgeists that are happening. I will give a shout out to the Green Light [inaudible], to my people, the culture, just for my appreciation for understanding so much. So much of, like, who I am is related to--as a child developmental psychologist, right? So much of I think who I am and the way I see the world is related to what I've learned from the people around me, from my neighborhoods, from my networks, from my friends, over time. I also think I want to give a really big shout out to my mentor at the CDC, Dr. Marshall [inaudible], who is, you know, a maverick who's a pioneer in leading the Autism and Developmental Disabilities monitoring network who has just spearheaded essentially a really big--people who put out our prevalence numbers, the research that goes into having a better understanding of prevalence, of a number of neurodevelopmental disabilities, and from that they're also getting--there's been so much more effort to understand ethnic and racial differences within these developmental disabilities, and they're finding a lot of things and saying that we need to target that and to charge that as well. And to Dr. Odunsi for being a hero.Latricia: Thanks so much. We'll definitely--any of those shout outs that you would like for us to share, we'll put that in there as well. So thanks again for joining the show. It was a really great conversation with Dr. Odunsi and future Dr. Nonye Nwosu. So thanks again, and that's all we have. Zach: And we're back. Latricia, that was a great interview. I feel like I learned a lot, and I have some additional tools in my toolkit to deal with anxiety, self-care, and really leveraging my own resources. I know for me, I need to be more intentional with my own care and how I manage myself. Just looking at the statistics, they're eye-opening, but they honestly weren't that shocking. How did you feel about the interview?Latricia: I agree. The statistics really aren't that shocking when you take a moment and really self-reflect on your own experiences with mental health in the workplace. Another really important takeaway for me was the importance of expanding the diversity and inclusion conversation to also be more inclusive of the varieties and the diversities of mental health abilities and understanding that we all bring different strengths to the table, so what can we do in the corporate space to be more open and understanding of that concept? Of that very important concept.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and when you talk about diversity and inclusion, again, like it really matters, and it comes into play with everything in our society. That doesn't mean that we're making it about race. That doesn't mean that we're trying to create a new narrative or whatever else the other buzz phrases are. It's about being honest and really thinking through how people of color have to live and move in this society. And I think it's really gonna be important that we list all of the different resources and references that were made during the interview, that we put those in the show notes as well, you know?Latricia: Certainly. We'll make sure that everything is listed in the show notes so that you can get access to those resources related to how to find a mental health provider or other mental health institutions that are out there that can help you deal with some of your mental health concerns. And I also want to give a shout out to a couple of other podcasts that really are centered around this topic of mental health that our audience may find interesting. There's Therapy for Black Girls, the Affirmed podcast, Black and Therapy podcast, With That Being Said podcast, and Melanin and Mental Health. And we'll link these in the description as well.Zach: Those are great shout outs, and I definitely want to actually include Deun Ivory's Black Girl In Om and Lauren Ash's Black Girl In Om podcast. I know we just had 'em on the B-Side, but they're actually really good and they fit into this niche well around mental wellness, therapy, self-care. So it's really good. Now, with that being said, let's get into Favorite Things, okay? And I'm gonna go ahead and kick it off. My favorite thing right now is yet another book, but it's not an aggressive book title this time, okay? It's called Real Food: What to Eat and Why. As many of you know, diet plays an important role in mental health, so knowing what to fuel your body with is important. Latricia, what is your favorite thing right now?Latricia: So I know I give Amazon a shout out all the time, so, you know, we do need to pitch to Amazon for sponsorship [laughs] because I'm always giving them shout outs, but Amazon, it's so clutch. So kind of again on that topic of mental health, I've really been working on trying to get on my work out grind, 'cause Dr. Odunsi said in the interview, exercise is a great way to cope with different mental health illnesses or conditions that you're dealing with, and as a consultant, again, we travel a lot and sometimes work very odd hours, so I may not leave the client site before the gym closes. And so I'm trying to find more ways to work out in my hotel room, so I've really been enjoying some of the different products that I've purchased from Amazon's travel equipment, travel work out equipment. And so I'll link some of the work out equipment that I use on a daily basis.Zach: Awesome. And look, guys, remember - the favorite things that we talk about on the show are also listed on the website, so check those out. And I think that's gonna do it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you for joining the show. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And I think that does it for us on the show. My name is Zach.Latricia: And I'm Latricia.Latricia and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this B-side, we sit down with educator, HR Business Partner, public speaker, and Austin Human Resource Management Association (AHRMA) president elect Angela Shaw to discuss her journey of professional reinvention. #AHRMA #ProfessionalDevelopment #PublicSpeaking #Hardworkpaysoff #HumanResourcesAngela Shaw's LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/angelalshaw/Austin Human Resource Management Association (AHRMA)https://www.austinhumanresource.orgTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you’re listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we’ve introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is someone’s first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between the larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit. Now, listen. I know, the regular shows are lit, but these are somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they’re discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they’re extended monologues, or maybe they’re even a chat with a special guest. Today we have such a guest. Her name is Ms. Angela Shaw. Angela is a public speaker, educator, and has functioned as an HR business partner for both the private and public sector. She is the president-elect of the Austin Human Resource Management Association, a not-for-profit association of over 800 resource professionals in the greater Austin area representing more than 500 businesses. Angela, welcome to the show. [Sound Man throws in children’s applause] Angela: Thank you so much, Zach. I’m excited to be here. And thank you for that intro. That was wonderful. Zach: No problem, no problem. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Angela: So I am a professional who started a little late getting serious about her career, and not that that’s a bad thing--I certainly don’t feel bad about it, and I’m proud to say now, in my mid-forties, I’m finally on a career path that I want to be on. So just a little more about that. It was about probably ten years ago that I really became focused on my career and serious about setting a path. I was very intentional about going into HR. In the beginning, I was in administrative roles. I was in a small organization, and through attrition I became responsible for some HR training duties, and I have to say that was the point for me. I remember the very first training I conducted for staff, and the feeling of accomplishment that I had from that, it was like no other feeling, and I knew then and there that I wanted to go fully into HR. And so I began looking for a job in HR, and I found one, and I have not looked back since. I feel like at this point it’s important to say, noteworthy to mention, that I am the only person in my immediate family of parents and siblings of seven people to graduate from college, and while they were supportive, sometimes the understanding of why I just have continued to push myself into staying busy professionally hasn’t always been there. And I love my family because they’re an integral part of who I am and my base of where I come from, but I didn’t wanna let where I came from define where I was going. So once I got into an HR job I began to really learn and practice HR, and what I found was that I wasn’t gonna be able to move forward without credentials. So my experience and my smile wasn’t going to be enough. So by then I had a few years of HR experience under my belt. I had also gone through a major life change, which was a divorce, and that was the true catalyst of my reinvention. So early 30s, I learned through that divorce that nothing was guaranteed, and I learned that it was up to me to be able to take care of myself into retirement and that me, myself, and I were gonna be all the identity that I actually needed. So it took me a few years, but literally I had to physically, emotionally, and spiritually recover from the divorce, and that’s when I set out on deciding what my career path would be in HR. So by this time I was certified in HR, I knew I wanted to stay in HR, and so I started working towards getting my Bachelor’s degree. I took my first college course at the age of 30, and it took me eight years to finish, but when I tell you that that was probably the biggest accomplishment of my life, that is certainly the truth. I graduated with a degree in business administration and a minor in my love of HR. So by the time I completed my Bachelor’s degree, I was in an HR management position, I was leading staff, and I had become a strategic business partner in a growing organization. So I had really accomplished something that up until then had only been a dream of mine and that I didn’t even know I could actually do, but soon after completing that degree--then I started to really sit down and chart what my continued success would look like. So I wanted to be a chief HR officer. I still want to be a chief HR officer. And what does that path look like for me? I thought about what other professional accomplishments I could achieve that would help me on this track to being a chief HR officer. I also thought about how I could reach back and help others. So everyone, but particularly people who come from under-represented groups that I identify with. So women, people of color, people over the age of 40, you know? That was in December of 2012. So since then I have really been able to grow my career in multiple ways by being intentional. So I’ve held leadership positions in HR in different organizations because I really wanted to get different industry experience. I’ve held multiple volunteer leadership positions in several organizations, and as you mentioned, I’m currently president-elect of AHRMA. I also teach a class as an adjunct professor at Austin Community College, so I teach an Essentials of HR class, and this year I really began public speaking on HR topics, but the one closest to my heart being diversity and inclusion-- Zach: So talk to me about that though. Talk to me about how you were able to--first of all, thank you so much ‘cause you’re giving me a lot, even in, like, just the introduction of who you are, and you actually answered a couple of my questions, but I want to pause you really quick because I really want to hear more about the transition, how you pivoted--’cause you explained the pivot in your early 30s to really being a more focused HR professional, but talk to us please a little bit more about how you pivoted from that or in that to being in public speaking. I’d love to hear that. Angela: So I feel like in my journey there’s been a lot of denials based on things that I was not able to change about myself, these unconscious biases. That’s a phrase that we hear a lot, you know? I feel like I received a lot of denials in my life, whether it was trying to get a job I felt like I deserved or being promoted, or someone even deciding that I just--you know, I wasn’t worthy of them hearing what I had to say. That was the pivot for me when it came to speaking, public speaking, and as I had volunteer leadership roles they kind of naturally provide a platform for you to be able to speak about different things, but I intentionally sent a proposal to speak at an event. So DisruptHR is a movement that is sweeping the world, and they had an event in Austin, and I saw something about it, and I sent a proposal, not knowing whether or not I would actually get it, but I find that if you want something to happen, obviously you speak it into existence, but then you follow that up with action, and that’s what I did by submitting the proposal. And they picked me, and I spoke at this DisruptHR event in Austin, and I was so proud, but it was the feedback that I received afterwards that was so pivotal for me. So if you public speak and people come up to you afterwards and they say, “Oh, you did a great job, and I really enjoyed that,” I’m sure it’s true, but that’s very subjective. But if somebody comes up to you afterwards and they want to engage with you in conversation to follow up what you talked about, that’s how you know you’re doing what you’re supposed to do. You said what you were supposed to say. You touched somebody. You want to move somebody to action, and so that’s what the public speaking has become for me, that opportunity to reach one and teach one. Every person that I get to touch that wants to take action means that I’m successful, so that’s really where the public speaking piece comes from, giving a voice and a platform to everybody who’s been denied or under-represented groups who feel like they don’t have a voice. That’s where it comes from. Zach: That’s awesome. And so, you know, you’ve mentioned your age, and you’ve mentioned just the--I think that’s a critical part of your journey and your story, right? So what advice would you have for older, more seasoned professionals who may feel like it’s too late for them, considering that there is a perception that this current era is dominated by millennials and that really if you’re not with a certain age bracket, you don’t count or you won’t be heard as much. I’m curious because, you know, a lot of our listeners are younger professionals. However, we have professionals who are Gen X and who are even baby boomers, right? So, you know, when I listen to your story, I’m encouraged because it reminds me that there’s no point in your life where it’s too late to try something different or to even reinvigorate yourself, and so I’m curious - do you have any advice for the 30-something, even the 40 or 50-something out there who’s looking to make a transition, who may have some questions or anxiety around how to go about doing that? Angela: I do. So I love to use my personal story as an example as hard work pays off and that no matter what doors are closed or how many glass ceilings you feel like there are, everybody has the opportunity set a goal and then work towards that goal. I would tell them--so I rep Gen X all the way, that’s what I am, but I have a couple of millennial traits, and I feel like I have some baby boomer traits also. So I would tell them to make sure they’re setting their personal goals, and make their goals about them. It’s not about anybody else. They can’t compare themselves to other people. What they can do is put in that work and then let their path continue in its own time and own way the way it should. I would also tell them it’s never too late, never. Every day that you wake up is an opportunity to get better. I love to say that. So that’s an opportunity every day to actively work towards a goal that you might have for yourself. So that would be my advice that I would give to anybody. Keep at it. Set your goals and keep at it, and don’t compare yourself to other people because everybody’s path is different.  Zach: Well, that’s amazing, and I appreciate that, and I’m sure our listeners appreciate that as well. So before we go, do you have any final shout outs? Any more words of wisdom that you’d like to share in part for us? Angela: I do. So I’ll start with the final words before I give the shout out. I stopped keeping track of how many denials I received. So I think anybody who’s in an under-represented group knows what I’m talking about when it comes to these denials that are real, but I stopped keeping track of the denials, and instead I started keeping track of my successes that I’ve had in my journey. And so my final words of wisdom to anybody is to do that. No one’s stopping you but you, so stop keeping track of those denials and start keeping track of your successes. And as my final shout out, I want to shout out anybody out there who is working towards a goal and feels like you’re alone. You are not alone, and your hard work is not in vain. Hard work pays off, and I’m a prime example of that. And lastly, Zach, I just want to thank you for giving me some time to tell my story. I hope--if there’s at least one person out there who hears this story and feels in any kind of way inspired then we did our part. I also want to tell you I’m a fan of yours. I wish you success in everything that you do and everything that you want for yourself, and I will always be a supporter. Zach: Angela, first of all, thank you so much for the love. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. It’s a wonderful story, and it’s a story that needs to be told because I believe that we live in a time today where, you know, social media and just the way that we consume content, it’s easy just to think that, you know, only a select few can be successful, right? But to your point, it’s about working hard. It’s about being intentional. It’s about being consistent, and it’s about being true to who you are and true to your own story, right? So you epitomize that, and I’m really just thankful to have you here. I definitely want to shout you out. I want to shout out the Austin Human Resource Management Association, and I want to make sure that we have you back on the show. Angela: Absolutely. Thank you, Zach. Zach: Awesome. Well, look. That does it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at @LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget - we also have a Patreon. So if you’d like to support us through Patreon, make sure to check out the links and information in the show notes below. My name is Zach. You’ve been talking with Angela Shaw. Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.             

We discuss the idea of professional reinvention and sit down with sales executive and entreprenuer Edward Nunn to hear his 33 year journey. Length: 54:08Host: Zach | AdeEdward Nunn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ed-nunn-7851ba11/NunnAbove www.nunnabove.comLiving Corporate Patreon and All Major Links: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: "It is not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change." The context of this apocryphal quote commonly attributed to Darwin is related to this theory of biological evolution, but I believe there's something more there. For many of us, we don't want to just survive, we want to thrive. We want to achieve as much as we can while being our best selves, or at least while striving to find out who our best selves are. So with that in mind, what does change responsiveness look like for us in our careers? How do we adapt professionally to make sure we're constantly setting ourselves up for long-term success? What does that even mean? What does that look like? This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. It's the remix. Zach: What?Ade: Thank you for joining us. [laughs] My bad. Today we're talking about reinventing yourself professionally, so I thought it was contextually appropriate. So the act of making a career change that is in-line with your long-term career goals.Zach: Oh, okay. Yes, gotcha. Yes. [laughs]Ade: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: This is really important though. Like, the concept of looking where you believe you're trending professionally and making adjustments. Sometimes they're major adjustments where appropriate. Speaking of which, Ade, would you mind talking to us about your journey to becoming an engineer?Ade: It's been a pretty rough, rough trip so far, and--I mean, some of it has been very enjoyable, and I mean that with all sincerity. I've had some amazing experience, but a lot of it has just been, you know, having to teach yourself a whole new--brand new field of knowledge. I like to describe myself as a learner, but having to teach yourself a whole new field of knowledge when you have nothing to base that field on is incredibly daunting. And I've had some, you know, technical issues, technical difficulties along the way, and I've also had some very, like, up at 2 A.M. in the morning like, "I don't think I can do this." Like, "I don't think that I am up to the task of making this switch," and that's not because I don't find this interesting or I don't find this, like, mind-meltingly awesome, it's that I just don't feel like I'm capable. And so those doubts always exist, but the fun thing about the switch is that in reinventing yourself you discover parts of yourself that you didn't know were there. And so it's difficult, it's daunting, but it's also really, really rewarding. Like, sometimes I get to a point where [inaudible] or my portfolio site comes together and I'm like, "Oh, my God. I did it. I did it, and I didn't--" I mean, yes, I used Stack Overflow more than once, but I did it, you know? You get that sense of accomplishment that you're not actually steering your life right off a cliff, and there's that duality of on the one hand "Am I even supposed to be here?" And on the other hand, on the days where, you know, you do feel like you're in the right room or you do feel like you're doing the right thing and you do feel like "I'm right where I need to be," it's this breathless wonder, I suppose is the best way of putting it, at just how dope everything can be.Zach: That's so cool. I know of a few people, right, who have made similar changes in terms of--not similar changes in terms of becoming an engineer, but similar decisions to kind of make a pivot, right, career-wise, and you know, I've seen people who have transitioned from being, like, HR managers to being fashion bloggers. I've seen--I have friends who have transitioned from being teachers to being full-time photographers. I've had friends who worked in the government and now they're, like, running intramural sports leagues. And I can't speak to the bag, like, how much money they're making, but I can say that each and every one of them seemed much more fulfilled in their day-to-day activities. And so, like, I'm really excited for you because you're going through a journey yourself, and I'm excited to see what the other side of that looks like for you.Ade: [laughs] So am I.Zach: [laughs] And I know that regardless of whatever, you know, ultimately it is, you're gonna be a better version of yourself coming out of it, so I'm really excited for you for that.Ade: Aye. And here's where we insert the celebratory Milly Rock. [laughs] But yeah, you know what? I think it would be super interesting to talk to someone who has had to professionally maybe reinvent themselves a couple times over, several times over. I'm thinking major changes, something like transitioning from education to car sales to, I don't know, stock brokering? To maybe pharmaceuticals to--hm, let's go with hospice care, and bonus points if this person was somehow related, in some form or fashion, to one of our Living Corporate hosts.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest, my dad Ed Nunn?Ade & Zach: Whaaaaat? Zach: [imitates airhorns][Sound Man throws 'em in]Zach: Sound Man, listen, now. You gonna give me my pow-pow-pows, but then you also give me a couple pow-pow-pows 'cause it's my dad, okay? So pow-pow-pow. Give me a couple more.[Sound Man obliges]Zach: Give me some pow-pow-pows. Boy, that needs to be on a t-shirt somewhere. Anyway, keep it in. All right, so next we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, my dad Ed Nunn.Ade: We're back. Welcome to this portion of the show called the interview section. Y'all know how we go. So today we have the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful Mr. Ed Nunn with us.[Sound Man throws in cheers]Ade: Ed, welcome to the show.Ed: Thank you. Appreciate it, Ade. Ade: Most certainly. So for those of us who don't know you, do you mind sharing a bit of your background? Tell us a bit about yourself.Ed: I'm 53 years old, Midwesterner. Right now I'm married, living in--outside of St. Paul. Five children. One of them happens to be one of your colleagues, Zach Nunn.Ade: Yeah, yeah.Ed: His siblings are a bit younger. We have a dog. My mother-in-law lives with us here in the suburbs. Ade: Okay. I love dogs, so I'm not gonna, like, go down that line of inquiry 'cause I'm gonna sit up here all day talking to you about your dog. But that sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have a nice, cozy life with a nice, cozy family, which is something I definitely aspire to, but today we're talking a little bit about professional reinvention, kind of remaking your career, which is something that's near and dear to my heart, and the path to getting there. You mind walking us through your own 33-year journey to being who you are now?Ed: Mm-hmm. You know what? When you put it that way, there's a--I look back, and I think about it, and I haven't really thought about it until you put it that way. 33 years.Ade: [laughs] Right.Ed: You know, I recall when I first went to college I had an academic scholarship to Jackson State University, and I recall going to college, and honor student and all that stuff, and my mom had talked to me--you know, I remember taking these trips with my mom and dad and the family to Saint Louis and Mississippi and California, and every time we'd go some place, you know, she'd talk about these roads and these build--I'm sorry, these bridges, and she said, "You know, son, you can be an engineer. You could build these. You could design these." My mom and dad weren't--were not educated, didn't graduate high school, but their aspiration was of course for all of us to do much more, much greater things, and they poured a lot of expectations and resources, time, and love and all of that into us to do that. So I went to school and I was gonna be an engineer. Not a civil engineer, I decided I'd try my hand at being a mechanical engineer and found out that I didn't like engineering. [laughs] So instead of--'cause I went to Jackson State, transferred to Mississippi State, went back to Jackson State and finished up my math degree. So I graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics, and I said, "Okay, now I'm out. Now what do I do with that?" Thought about being a teacher, tried my hand at teaching mathematics high school for a couple of years, realized I didn't like that. Left that and went into working as a recruiter for a liberal arts college in the Midwest. Left that and became a stockbroker. Really, really changed gears there because we--at that time I was married, and we decided to leave the Quad City area. When I got out of mathematics and moved back home to the Quad Cities I started the recruitment for the liberal arts college, became a stockbroker and wanted to leave the Quad Cities just to--the idea of having a family and being able to raise a family in a more cosmopolitan, diverse--you name it. You can put anything you want, it wasn't the Quad Cities.Ade: Right. The stakes were different.Ed: Well, yeah. It was just different, right, and so we decided to go to Minneapolis, the Minneapolis area, and got up to the Minneapolis area and realized I didn't really want to start all over again building a book of business after three or four years of doing it in the Quad Cities, so I started working in the field of pharmaceutical sales. Left pharmaceutical sales, went into selling copiers and printing and multi-function devices. Left that and went into--well, previously I went to telecommunications, then to--no, I'm sorry, it was telecommunications after selling printers, and then I found myself at a point where I was just kind of burnt out, you know? I'm hopping from place to place, industry to industry, and not really finding what I'm looking for. It was okay for a little while, get bored. Literally get bored of it, and I took a break, flat out took a break. There was a place where the pharmaceutical industry dried up. A lot of reps--the companies were downsizing, and I recall--I recall talking to my wife and saying, "You know what? I'm tired of this." It really wasn't sales, it was walking in and, you know, pop-up ads all you were. You weren't having an opportunity to have a discussion with people around their needs and how to solve them.Ade: Right.Ed: So I took a break, and I just started my own little deal. I got involved with some guys that had an investment idea, and we formed a company and started--we're manufacturing, with some partners in Asia, some technology, and then we have formed a company to actually--a separate company aside from our investment. We were going to import it and start selling it to resellers, and I did that for a couple years, and it was good. I enjoyed it. We saw some growth, my partner and I did. That went awry because the original investor group kind of--they were at odds with each other, and there were some issues that came about, and so that kind of blew up on that side, which it then kind of obviously cratered the business that we had importing the product and trying to sell it to the resellers. And so there I am again thinking, "Okay, great, now what?" So as I sat there, you know, I recall a couple of weeks just saying, "Okay, what am I gonna do? What do I want to do?" I got a phone call, and this was the beginning of what I've been doing for the last few years of my life. I got a phone call from a hospice company, and they--I picked the phone up and the lady said, "Hey, you know, I'm looking for Ed Nunn." Said, "This is he." "Hey, Ed, I'm So-and-so from, you know, so-and-so hospice. Have you ever thought about hospice?" I said, "No." "Would you like to?" I said, "No." [laughs] "What I know about hospice is death. I--you know, I'm not there yet. I'm not ready to talk about it, I'm not ready to experience it, so I'm not really interested. Thank you very much." "Well, just keep my name, and if you ever change your mind please call," you know? "We got your name from So-and-so and we'd like to talk to you." "Okay, thanks. Goodbye." I hung that up, and my wife said, "Who was that?" So I told her. She says, "You know, you may want to think about that." I said, "Sheila, I thought about it. No thank you."Ade: Right.Ed: But I gave it a little more thought. I don't know what happened, but I gave it some thought. I didn't have anything else lined up necessarily. I didn't have anything in my mind I wanted to do, and, you know, after I thought about it, there's got to be more to hospice than just death. I mean, it's something we're all gonna do is what I recall thinking, and I end up wanting to find out more about it. So a couple days have passed. I pick the phone up and call the lady back, and, you know, a couple, three, four weeks later, I find myself hired by this company, which at the time was one of the largest, if not the largest home health care company. It was a large company. 60,000 employees here in the states. For what they did, they were a big company. And so I found myself in the world of--still in health care, but now in hospice, and I've been in hospice ever since. And that was 2012, I believe. So for the last six years I've been in hospice, working for three different hospice companies. The third one, you know, actually was purchased, and they decided to shut down a third of their operations in the country to kind of get control of five different platforms. It was just spread out too far, and they chose to shut down the two offices I was running here in Minnesota as well as the other 25 to 30 they shut down. And so I got tired of doing hospice for others, and I opened my own hospice company, and so right now I own part of a hospice company, and I'm still working for yet another one, doing sales and marketing for them here in the Twin Cities area. So that's me.Ade: Wow. So first of all, I want to take a break. [laughs] I want to, like, sit back and be like, "That was a whole lot," and I feel like I've earned it, but yeah, it sounds like you've gone through a process of constant reinvention and experiences that have built one upon the other. Not necessarily a 1:1 correlation there, but it does sound like you've had a wealth of experiences. Have any of them really stuck with you, or any feedback that you've gotten from the people around you, have those stuck with you to the extent that you've utilized those thoughts or you've utilized that process in other areas of your life, maybe in building your previous companies or in building this one?Ed: Yes. As a matter of fact, the very first time I stepped out into the world of commission-based earning versus, you know, an hourly salary or some hourly pay rather versus salary, just doing it on commission. The very first thing I heard was from my father, and he told me, "What are you doing? You need to get you a job that pays you a solid hourly rate and will just--" "You can pay your bills, and--what are you talking about, commission? You don't know what you're gonna make," and he didn't care that it was a--that I had just been interviewed and I was the first person of color in the Quad Cities to actually have a Series 7 to be a licensed stockbroker with the company that I was working with, and they had been there in one form or another--for 93 years been around, and he didn't care. That wasn't a focus. He was--you know, my father grew up John Deere and forging metal and grinding it and that kind of thing. He's like, "Better get you a job." [laughs] And so that experience, his objection to it, was so strong. I'll never forget it. I'm thinking, "You know what? You may be right, but I'm gonna try this," and it was the best thing I ever did, and I always go back to that thinking no--you really have to have faith in yourself and the things you do, and if you really are passionate about it and--you just have to believe in it and go for it, and I'll never forget that. As the first thing--the first time I tried to do something outside the realm of what my parents had kind of modeled for me, that was the one thing that--it stuck out, like, "Wow, okay. I'm out here by myself now." "You're on your own." But yeah, that one stuck out with me because--I kept that mindset. It was uncomfortable, Ade. It was very uncomfortable going from a known, you know, to the unknown in terms of my pay because yeah, you know, I had a house, you know? All these things you're doing and you need to pay for, and all of a sudden--*claps*--you know? You know, when they first start you out as a broker, you know--I started out, and they give you a pay, rather a salary, and wean you off of it, and the goal is to be a year, a year and a half or so, that you're 100% commission-based. Well, after the first three months, I was doing enough in commissions--my commissions far exceeded my salary, so after three months I said, "You know what? You keep your salary. I'll just go commission here on in," and it was the best thing I ever did. And so I look back and think about the fact that had I not done that, had I not gone through that, had I not weathered the storm of my father telling me not to do it and going ahead and doing it, I wouldn't have ventured out and done some of the things I've done in the last few years.Ade: Right. And you've kind of touched on it, but I do wanna backtrack and get, like, an explicit conversation about the motivation behind a few of these shifts. So you mentioned that a few of them were by necessity, but you made some jumps and you made some decisions that weren't necessarily necessities, they were just you making decisions based off of your own motivations 'cause you speak to those.Ed: Well, I've always found it odd that when someone would look at my resume, and this was--you know, I'm 53 now, so when I was in my mid-30s someone would look at my resume--'cause there was a time when, and I didn't mention this, my wife and I actually went to Japan for a couple of years and taught English. We just--we stopped it all and said, "You know what? We don't have kids. Before we go, we're just gonna go." To get started we're just gonna go to Japan, and we're gonna start and teach for a while and get an experience, but when you get back and you sit down with folks and they look at your resume, and they're looking for--you know, they're looking for [inaudible], right? Whatever that [inaudible] is, that's what they're looking for. I've got widgets over here. All I've got is widgets. Now, some of mine are yellow, some are green, but I don't have [inaudible], and I'm thinking, "Why are you looking for that? Why don't you look--and I know that you're looking for something in terms of what you're trying to do for this position. You want these qualities you want this person to fill, and they've got this list, but I--and they're trying to, you know, jam me into that, or jam anybody into it, and what I realized was that after a while--for a while [inaudible] I was frustrated because I didn't have [inaudible] and I didn't fit the mold because I didn't stay nine years here, I didn't stay five years there, and the older I got, the more experience I got, the more I realized that's fine, it just wasn't a fit. But while I was going through it it was frustrating, and so the decisions that I made to move, at first they were very uncomfortable when I was--you know, I'd move. I'd want to do something. It was intentional. I didn't like what I was doing, and my thought was "Why stay here? Just because I don't fit this mold I have to stay until I fit this mold? Who tells me--and when is it okay to move because I'm miserable here? How long do I stay here and be miserable so I can do another move here?" And I realized, "No, that's just not gonna work. If that's not a fit because of me moving, well, then that's not a fit, and I'll just keep moving." What I came to realize in the end was I wasn't going to be happy getting a job somewhere necessarily. It's gonna have to be something--and I know a lot of folks come to it on their own. It took me a while to get to it, you know, get to the fact that it was okay, it was okay to not be comfortable. It was okay to not fit the mold, and it was okay to go and make your own money your own way, and if you stumbled along the way, you didn't make all the money you thought you were gonna make, and whatever that stuff was in the middle that I was kind of, you know, letting get in my way, that was okay too because the goal was to kind of, you know, be true to myself, and I know it sounds kind of cliche, but I really was trying to find something that I didn't have, and so it was okay getting through all that to get to, you know, trying to be happy with what I was initially rather going to wind up with, which was a journey in terms of just feeling like I was accomplishing something, you know? For me and myself, because I tell my kids all the time, Ade, and I know I kinda strayed here, but I tell my kids all the time that my life is--my life, I identify myself by my family. I'm only doing what I'm doing because of them in terms of trying to provide for them, but if I'm not happy doing it then they're in trouble because I'm--[laughs] They're in trouble, so that being the case I need to be happy while I'm trying to provide and give them the things that I really want them to have just like my folks did for me.Ade: Right. Yeah, so, you know, I think a lot about the current trajectory for a lot of my friends, or for even me myself, and just thinking about how people map their three-year plan, their five-year plan, their seven-year plan, their ten-year plan, I think a lot of it is based in that community where it's [inaudible]. Ed: [inaudible]. [laughs]Ade: [inaudible], yes. It makes me think of, like, my dog chewing on my shoes or something. Now I'm scared that he's chewing on my shoes downstairs. [laughs] But anyway, I've noticed that for a lot of my cohorts, we rely on that continuity and will even, like, rewrite resumes, and we'll just, like, try to shave the edges off of the square peg to fit in a round hole. And it sounds very much that you were like, "Nope, the square peg is still the square peg," and so that process for you, do you have any advice for anybody who's navigating that current trajectory on their own, such as myself? How we should go about it, just kind of presenting your experiences and how that might--and how your experiences might help us or edify us in any way.Ed: You know what? The first thing first and foremost is get comfortable with the idea of being very uncomfortable.Ade: Yikes. [laughs]Ed: I mean, you know, you've heard the--you know, those adages, and you've heard, you know, "If you want to succeed," you know, "you're either burning the bridge or burning the boat that got you there," so you're stuck there, those kinds of things. You know, that's true. You--I'm not saying you burn your, you know, your contacts and you burn people, but in your mind you have to just get used to the fact that "Wow, I just did something that--" "Oh, okay. I let that go," and you have to be comfortable letting it go and not going back to it. You let it go for a reason, and you get--you know, sometimes you can get a--you know, you get afraid of where you're going 'cause you're not quite sure and you kind of want to hold onto some things, but I would tell you that number one, get very comfortable being uncomfortable. Number two, I would say that you're going to--even if you have that mindset, some of those personality traits--you know, the gambler type of personality.Ade: [laughs]Ed: Seriously, you know, that doesn't mean that the gambler is 100% certain of themselves, but just know that--[laughs]--when you make that call, you're gonna fall. You really are, but that doesn't mean you made the wrong call. Be comfortable, you know, with being uncomfortable. Know that you're gonna fall down along the way, but you have to stay true. You really have to have faith in what you've chosen and faith in yourself because I'm telling you this much, if you put yourself out there and you don't have this privileged mindset, you will make it happen for yourself. I can guarantee you. If you sincerely understand that--the mindset that, "You know what? I don't know what this problem--I don't know how to solve this one, but I will figure it out. I'll use my resources. I'll call some friends. I'll have these conversations." You do what you have to do. You talk to folks, and it'll come to you, but you have to know that when you put yourself out there it's gonna be challenging, but if you have serious faith in what you're doing--and if you don't panic, overly panic...Ade: So panicking a little bit is fine. [laughs]Ed: [laughs] It's fine. You're gonna panic a little bit, because, you know, there are times when I might need a good chunk of change to do something I'm working to do. I've got a few projects now I'm working on that have nothing to do with my employer, they have nothing to do with, you know, my children right now. They have a sibling band, and they have--you know, they're actually doing pretty good. They're starting to get going a little bit. They're actually featured on this season's America's Got Talent and that kind of stuff. Not featured, but they're actually gonna be on the show. I can say that because I was told I could. Ade: [laughs] I'm looking forward to rooting for them.Ed: Pardon me?Ade: I said I'm looking forward to rooting for them.Ed: Oh, I appreciate it, and I'm sure they would too, but I've got another project I'm working on that I've been working on for five years, and there are times I--you know, you have a money crunch. If you need--you know, and I'm not a rich guy, so if I need 30, 40, $50,000, or even $10,000, and I need it next week and I don't have it, you have to start being creative. "How am I getting this money up?" You know, I'm not looking to go borrow money and go into debt, and so you just have some faith that you'll figure it out. And, you know, you do. You really do if your mindset--if you condition yourself to knowing that, "Okay, I'm gonna hit some things that I don't know how to handle. I'm gonna hit some snags. Don't panic overly so. Just go ahead and--" You know, 'cause there's a process to it, and typically my process has been to put different things in play so I have different areas or different things I can go back to to help me out.Ade: Right, so basically having a backup plan.Ed: Well, not just a backup plan. I'm talking multiple things that are going on at once. You know, the idea of having just one source of income scares the snot out of me. I don't know how folks do that. They have one job, and I look at that and think, "You're one management change away from twiddling your thumbs," and I'm thinking, "How do you navigate that?" And I realize you might have your--a year worth of savings, or two years worth of savings, or whatever you've got in your savings 401K to survive and why you--but why do it that way? Well, you know what, if that's what you want to do, great. My thought is just--I don't see it that way. I just like to have a little bit more control.Ade: Sure, yeah. Yeah. So I'm definitely gonna be looking into other streams of income now because you just dragged me by my edges just then.Ed: That wasn't the intent. That wasn't the intent, but--Ade: Look, I take it with all the love and the good sentiments behind that one. [laughs]Ed: [laughs] Well, no. I mean, and it's not anything that's--there's nothing elaborate, you know? Real estate, you know? For 20 something years I've owned real estate, you know? From several houses and/or multi-unit buildings to individual, you know, houses, but that stuff, for the last 20 something years, has kept me afloat, and it gave me the opportunity to make the choices and say, "You know what? I don't want to do that." You know, right now I have a project where I'm building these--I build these quarter-scale cars, and these things are--these are, like, four feet long, and they're huge, and they're quarter-scale. I mean, these things are 50 pounds maybe. They have their functioning engines, whether the engines be eight-cylinder gasoline engines or nitromethane engines. They have working lights, doors, you name it. They're actually scale cars. These things sell for about--you know, they sell for a lot of money, so that's something I do on the side as well. Just a lot of different things going on that help as you want to make a change, and they also take up your time, but they're a part of the plan, because the plan for me has always been--I go back to what I'm doing this for. It's just to make sure I get this group of people through this to a point where they can, on their own, start navigating. That's my purpose. That's my plan. That's all I'm here to do right now. That's it, and so I'm taking everything I can with me that I'm using to do just that, period the end. Ade: That's brilliant. I think that it's important, you know, the thought you just elucidated, that it's great and it's a good idea to reinvent yourself, but you also should have something to fall back on while you do that because it's a good thing to take the leap of faith, but you should have a parachute.Ed: Oh, certainly. Well, if you don't, it's a hard, rough landing. [laughs] I've been there too.Ade: [laughs] Right. But yeah, I mean, thank goodness for, you know, parachutes because every once in a while taking that step of faith is just kind of like, "I don't know. That's a mighty long way down."Ed: But you know, you guys, you're much younger. I mean, I look at--I look at you and Zach and, you know, folks your age, and I say, "Wow, you don't have to worry about that nonsense, someone looking at your resume saying, "Gee, you know, you were only here for two years. You were only here for three years."" Ade: Right.Ed: You know, that's not a question that people are posing. That's not even a mindset anymore. Well, you know, 30 years ago it certainly was. The idea of stability was--it was different, and I look at that flexibility that you have to--you know, to shape yourselves, your careers, your destinies. I think you have--I think you have more flexibility. I think you--there's an opportunity, a greater one, a much more easy opportunity to do just that than I had. So I think that's really cool.Ade: Yeah, I really like that. I think those were all the questions that we have today. Are there any thoughts that you would like to share that we haven't gotten to? Anything that you really think would benefit us? Ed: I guess--let me ask you a question.Ade: Sure.Ed: Education-wise.Ade: Yeah.Ed: What is your education?Ade: I have a B.A. in political science and legal studies. I think I had a minor's in philosophy. I really wanted to go to law school at the time, and then I began a master's in sociology, the focus being [inaudible] science, but I never completed my master's, and I'm now working on a front-end nanodegree at Udacity. It's a Google scholarship that allows people to kind of learn programming skills, which is what I'm interested in. So I really, really, really, really, really want to become a software engineer. That's my eventual goal. I want to build my own apps, but I also want to work at--not a Google or a Facebook. I think those are way too large for my personality type. Maybe eventually. Right now, I definitely want to work at more of a mid-sized company where I get the mentorship that I'm really looking for and ownership of my products, honestly so I can be outchea. [laughs] No, I'm kidding. I mean, that is it a little bit. I think that--I think that I'm really invested in a bit of freedom, and most of the software engineers that I know and most of the jobs that I look at are like, "Oh, yeah, you can work 90% of the time remote," which to me means, you know, I can spend a solid 90% of my time coding on beaches, which I know you don't know much about me, but I'm very much a water person, so the idea of being able to do something that I enjoy in a place I enjoy really, really appeals to me. So I have that freedom, and my whole life isn't sitting behind a desk somewhere.Ed: So if I'm not mistaken, what I'm hearing you say is that this education you're pursuing, you're doing so in order to gain some freedom in life and control.Ade: Yeah.Ed: Okay. If you didn't have to work, what would you be doing?Ade: If I didn't have to work, I would own a restaurant. Ed: You don't think that's work?Ade: No. [laughs] It's funny. I actually don't know if we'll keep all of this in the conversation. I don't know. Where is this going? Ed: [laughs] I'm asking the question 'cause you asked me--I'm getting somewhere. I'm going somewhere.Ade: Okay, okay. If I didn't have to work, I would have a restaurant. I actually have a book of recipe ideas and meals that I want to cook. The idea is to have a restaurant that is diasporic, so all of the food in the restaurant would from the African diaspora, from West African, East African-inspired meals to the Caribbeans to Latin America and meals that are typically in Afro-Latino homes. Just everything that brings us together as one community. I'm very much a community-oriented person, and I think that--to me, one of the most beautiful things about the diaspora is how similar but different food is, and Anthony Bourdain, who was, like, one of the, like, biggest influences for my love of food and cooking and people, had this thing where he talked about food being the center of humanity. Like, once you talk about a people's food, you're talking about people. So culture is built on that, and I could wax poetic about this all day, but essentially I'd be cooking. I'd own a kitchen or a food truck or a series of them and just feed people, 'cause I'm African and that's what we like doing. [laughs]Ed: So here's my question to you, and I mean, it's--you know, I listen to you talk, and the last couple of minutes have been real talk from you. It's been--I can tell it in your tone. I can tell from the fact that you have this knowledge about, this breath and this passion about it. I marvel at that because I'm wondering, "Okay, so how many of these changes are you gonna take yourself through before you say, "You know what? I'm ready for that change now.""Ade: Yikes. [laugh]Ed: Because I have a couple things that I'd like to do for me, and I'm 53, and I'm working towards them. One of them I've already started, with these cars. It's a passion. I love cars, and I like the idea of control or whatever. You know, life is extremely obviously random, but however you can eliminate some of that randomness--but that's one of the things I want to do. It's just taken a long time to get here. Dealing with my family, working with my family and having my kids and my wife around, that's something that I've always wanted to and I hold dear to. So the idea of working with them with their music career right now, that's really big for me, but it's taken a long time to get there. Some of that--well, I didn't have a family, you know, 30 years ago like this, but to get to something I really love--you already knew it, or know it rather. I didn't know 'til I got here. You already have something that is really, really dear and tender, and I'm listening to you talk about this nano this and this MBA that and this wizzy-wazzy this, and it was just interesting, and then when you started talking about the food I'm thinking, "Okay, this is real for her," and I'm just wondering: What are you gonna do, and when are you gonna decide to do that?Ade: It's funny that you ask because my partner is a tax lawyer, and her thing is constantly, like, "We need to get a food truck for you,", right? [laughs] And so I think that it's definitely something I want to work towards within the next five or so ten--five to ten years because I think that for me it's the security of the job, because, for example, I kind of provide for my family as well, and it's difficult for me to take a leap of faith with, like, a mini-parachute on my back when I know that, like, there are people who are relying on me to not break my legs on the way down, you know? So that's always--that's the fear. So there's the passion behind the cooking, right? And it's like--I'm definitely not gonna die without putting at least a plate in front of somebody's face and like, anticipating the look on their face when they eat it, right? But I also know that the amount that I have to lose right now is keeping me--is what's keeping me from it. So I think that the process of reinvention for me has to start from a place of absolute commitment, not a place of one foot in the commitment and one foot in the fear ,if that makes any sense. Yeah. Fingers crossed, man. [laughs]Ed: [laughs] Well, I just--I'm looking forward to hearing your story later when both feet, you know, finally land on the commitment side, and I'm wondering if it'll be the--you know, the pain to change was less than the pain to stay the same is what they say, right? So I'm just wondering what's your motivation, what actually gets you to that point? I realize you've got other things, that your people are depending on you. I got that. Hey, I got the same thing, and it's always interesting to hear what people's story is, what their story is, because I've gone through it too. So I'll be looking to hear the end of this one.Ade: Most definitely, and I'm looking forward to, like, feeding you at some point. [laughs] Putting a plate on your table, and hopefully I've written, like, my own e-commerce platform or something of the sort, so merging those two loves.Ed: Well, I've got to tell you this. I've listened to you guys with this Living Corporate, and I was--I've got some friends who listen to it too, and we marvel at it because--Ade: Really?Ed: Yes, yes. I think it's--I think it's relevant. My wife thinks it's extremely cool, because I think you guys have hit upon something.Ade: Thank you.Ed: Well, we think you've hit upon something because, you know, the idea of this--it's one thing to acknowledge, it's another to accept. And, you know, what you're doing is not new with respect to wanting, you know, this acceptance, not just acknowledgement in Corporate America for different peoples. But you guys have been able to reach beyond walls of these companies and connect it with this technology and have this conversation. And, you know, I've been at different companies, large companies, you know? A lot of them. You know, Xerox, Lilly. Some big companies, and within the walls, yeah, there's a lot of acknowledgement of different groups of people, and these different groups are formed, and they can have a platform of some sort, but typically in the past my experience has always been it's been a pat on the head, right? "Yeah, that's nice. That's nice. You guys go over there in the corner and talk, and I'll take it back to the board, and that'll be that." [inaudible] "I'll take this report that you guys had a meeting back too. That'll be nice," but you guys have decided that "No, we're not gonna center it in one particular place. We're just gonna put it out here for everybody," and you've taken this technology and taken this conversation to a different level, and it's so relevant. It's because it's now something that isn't confined to somebody's little bitty, you know, pat on the head from the corporate leadership. No, this is real, and we get to talk about this stuff, and we need to talk about it. And so I look at Living Corporate and say, "My God, that's a really cool idea. Man, they--talk about hitting on something that makes sense," and I enjoy listening to it. I enjoy listening to you guys. Your platform, the way you guys put it together, the music, the artwork - it's cool.Ade: Thank you. I really appreciate that it's making this much of an impact, and we've certainly been getting, you know, great feedback from people, and we really appreciate all of those things. So before we close out, do you have any final thoughts, anything that you'd like to share? Any shout outs you'd like to give? Whatever. The floor is yours.Ed: A big shout out to NUNNABOVE. That's the musical group that Zach's siblings have formed. They've been together for a few years doing their music together. They're young, they're young, but I ask that you check 'em out on America's Got Talent and support 'em, and a big shout out to my wife. She doesn't know that I'm gonna shout her out here, put her out here, but, you know, I mentioned--I mentioned all that changing and all those decisions I made to do different things to support my family. Without my wife there to be the support, it wouldn't have been able to be accomplished. I couldn't have--I couldn't have made the decisions and actually made them work without her. Not someone like her, but her here taking care of the things that needed to be taken care of in--you know, within the walls necessarily when I'm out trying out to figure out and knock down--you know, figure out a new path, knock down trees and break up big rocks. It makes it easier if you've got someone that can--that can do that for you. So a big, big, big shout out to her, big shout out to you guys, and seriously, I know that I don't need to do that 'cause you guys are--it's your show, but I'm just very proud of the fact that he's part of this effort that you guys are bringing forth.Ade: Thank you. Thank you very much, and I'm definitely gonna, like, hit him up like, "Your dad is the coolest ever." I did tell him that you were dragging me though. I informed him.Ed: That I was what? I was what?Ade: That you were dragging me. Like, you spent a solid chunk of our conversation today just, like, tugging on my wig all the way through. [laughs]Ed: [laughs] Well, it wasn't intentional. I just--but I do appreciate it, and you guys--I love the website. I was telling Zach there's some things that you guys are doing, the fact you got some pictures, and the way you guys have set it up, and I love the fonts. I love just the look and appeal of it. This is a really slick--I love the sound of it. When I listen to it, it makes you--it makes you want to listen. You want to engage. Like, "Okay, what did he say? Let me back that up. What did [inaudible] say? What? Oh, that was pretty cool." Ade: [laughs] Okay, I have appreciated the full length of this conversation. I am telling Zach about how amazing all of this is and how we're probably gonna have to put this on our Patreon 'cause people can't get this one for free. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you.Ed: Thanks, Ade.Zach: And we're back. Hey, Ade. That was a great interview. I really enjoyed that. The themes that kept popping up to me during your conversation were intentionality, comfort with being uncomfortable, and courage. It was really good.Ade: Uh... so I'm confused. Ed, why are you here? We're in the wrap session of the show. You can go now.Zach: Oh, you got jokes.Ade: Yeah, actually. Yes, I do. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause y'all sound exactly alike. It is so weird.Zach: We do sound alike, which is why I knew we couldn't be interviewing, like, together. Like, I couldn't interview him. It would sound like I was having a conversation with myself.Ade: Facts.Zach: But eeriness of that aside, I love the fact that he was able to be on the show. He and I, we have these discussions all the time, and he's really the reason I'm so comfortable trying new things.Ade: Yeah. I mean, I definitely got that sense from him. During our interview, I was taken aback, and dragged, quite a few times at just how fearless he seemed to be. He made so many different transitions and changes and jumps and leaps of faith over the course of his professional career. It was actually kind of scary. Zach: Yeah. I know, right?Ade: But, like, at the same time, I think I learned that your plan doesn't need to make sense to anybody but you, right? 'Cause you're the one living your life, and--I mean, when he was talking about his parents discouraging his shifts and those transitions, I could definitely really--'cause, you know, you can't explain your plans to everybody. Sometimes people side-eye you like, "Sis, you sure?"Zach: Right, and it's all about like my dad said, following your passions and going for what you feel is right. I mean, we're here right now doing Living Corporate and embracing discomfort and uncertainty. High risk for sure, but great rewards.Ade: No, I definitely agree, and it's also interesting that your dad was definitely job-hopping and forging his own path way before it was trendy, like millennial trendy.Zach: Right, and, you know, he really wasn't wrong then, and he isn't wrong now. I mean, look, if you look at this 2014 article from Forbes, it says that employees who stay in companies longer than two years get paid 50% less, and I know there's more value than just your paycheck, but also there's value in being bold and taking control of what you need to get where you believe you need to be.Ade: Right. So honestly, I'm excited for us to drop the extended interview on our Patreon. By the way, Sound Man, give me some slow jams real quick while I hit them with the super ASMR voice. Guys, check out our Patreon. You want more content, right? You want exclusive stuff? You want giveaways? You want to hang out with the Living Corporate team? I know you do, so go ahead and go join our Patreon. The link will be in the show note. Thank you.Zach: Oh, my God. [laughs]Ade: [laughs]Zach: Oh, my goodness. (laughing) Anyway, major shout out to Ed, my dad, and I hope he can join us again soon. Let's get into our next segment, okay? Favorite Things, where we talk about what our favorite things are these days.Ade: Yep. My favorite things right now are--I'm really into Miguel. I have been listening to some of my favorite Miguel songs lately non-stop. Candles in the Sun is, like, top 5, top 5, top 5 of all my favorite songs. So I've been really into his entire discography, and I've also been really into hiking. So I have a puppy, and he's a husky, and he needs a lot of, like, physical activity, and I'm training for this marathon, and just being able to get out and really be active and get outside and kind of commune with nature and exercise my hippie-dippie side has been really, really fun. Hurts sometimes 'cause my knees like, "Sis, we're getting way too old for this," but it's been--it's been really great. What about you?Zach: That's really cool. So my favorite thing right now has to be my sibling's band, keeping with the family theme of the show.Ade: Right. Why didn't you tell me you have whole rock stars in, like, your family? Like, bro, what?Zach: I know, right? And so I don't know--like, by the time this episode releases if we'll already have seen them on America's Got Talent, but yeah, I'm really, really proud of them. I love them. They're great, but yeah, so they're called NUNNABOVE. They do funk, pop--Ade: Yes.Zach: Yeah. Like, my oldest sister--my oldest little sister Cadence, she's 18, and she plays the bass and she does lead vocals, and then my second-youngest sister is Maddie, and she does keys and vocals. And then my oldest little brother Bennett plays guitar, and he also does vocals, and then my littlest sibling, my little brother Wisdom, plays drum set, and they're all great. Like, they're super talented, really cute. I love 'em. They're awesome.Ade: I want you to know that this is a setup. They had no choice but to be rock stars with names like that. Cadence? Cadence?Zach: (laughing) Yeah, Cadence.Ade: Your dad knew what he was doing. See? Setup.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Strategist, strategist. And so what we'll do is we'll make sure to put their information in the show notes so you guys can check them out as well, and yeah, we'll make sure to link all that up.Ade: Awesome. And as a reminder, to see all of our Favorite Things, go to our website at living-corporate.com and click on Faves. And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for us on the show. My name is Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with CEO, Author and Entrepreneur J. Prince and talk about his book, "The Art and Science of Respect". Length: 7:56Host: ZachTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows that we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have, sometimes they're extended monologues, or sometimes they're a chat with a special guest, and today we have a really special guest, folks, J Prince. J Prince is the CEO of Houston-based Rap-A-Lot Records, one of Houston's oldest rap record labels. Known as a godfather to the rap game, he has associations with some of the biggest names in hip-hop, including Drake, Lil Wayne, Scarface, Bun B and Pimp C, Tony Draper, Master P, Devin the Dude, Z-Ro, Lil' Flip, Juvenile, and Trae Tha Truth, just to name a few. Needless to say, the man has put his work in, and he's actually written a book chronically and reflecting on his own experiences called The Art and Science of Respect, which is out now and available for purchase everywhere fine books are sold. J Prince, welcome to the show, man. How you doin' today?J Prince: Ah, yeah. How you doin', my brother?Zach: [laughs] I'm doing good, man. So look, as you know, this is a podcast that explores the perspectives of being black and brown in Corporate America. Can you talk to me about your experiences operating as a CEO and building relationships with folks who don't necessarily look like you?J Prince: Oh, man. That was--where do you want me to start on that one? In the beginning, you know what I mean, making my transition from the streets to Corporate America, my experiences was not inviting, you know what I mean? And I wasn't invited in a lot of different perspectives, you know? I remember, you know, starting off in the music game, you know, we were really discriminated against on how we dressed, you know, in different offices that I rented, you know? So they kicked us out of several because, you know, everything was new to the music game, you know? I mean, everything was new to Houston, I'll say it that way, where the music game was concerned. And, you know, I hit a lot of roadblocks and challenges just based on how we dressed.Zach: 'Cause I would imagine, right, that you can't really build a dynasty like you've had without expanding your circle. So, like, what hurdles? You talked about obstacles. What hurdles did you have to overcome?J Prince: Yeah. I guess my first hurdle that, you know, a lot of that I had to overcome was hurdles to those that was closest to me, and I call 'em dream busters, you know what I mean? When a person--you share your dream with them, you share, you know, your goals with them, and they tell you you can't do that. You can't be this. "You ain't gonna ever be nothin'," you know, all of these negative things that you encounter, you know, in the hood. So those were some of the first obstacles that I had to make my mind up that I wasn't hearing, and really, after that, you know, when I found the strength to deal with those that really meant something to me, that was closest to me, saying negative things, when I figured out how to ignore that, the rest came easy. Those were some of the challenges, you know? The closer ones to you, and then of course after you get past that test there's many more waiting on you because, you know, it's full of challenges when you're playing on a million-dollar playing field, or just playing on the playing field of business any way. Zach: Yeah. I'm curious--let's talk about your book, The Art and Science of Respect. What was the point in which you said, "I gotta write a book," and I ask that, J, because there are a handful of folks, right, only a handful of folks who have the same amount or just breadth of experience that you have, and I would say few folks in the air that you operate choose to really write a memoir. So what was it for you that made you pause and say, "I gotta write a book?"J Prince: Well, you know, it was a combination of things, but, you know, as I travel, you know, around the world, and as I encounter, you know, with, you know, my people, you know, they're always asking me when, what, where and how, you know what I mean? They wanna know how I've done what I've done. How did you turn nothing into something? How can you be from, you know, the mud and yet and still figure it all out? So, you know, I figured out the best way to really speak to the world, the past, the future, and the present, was to put it in a book, you know what I mean? And also, as you know, I've done audio too.Zach: Yes, sir.J Prince: And I narrated it, so, you know, I'm talking to 'em.Zach: What would you say minorities in Corporate America could learn from your book? And why should they go get it today?J Prince: I think they can learn, and they will receive a lot of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, you know what I mean? I think they will learn a better way, you know? A sharper way. I think that book gonna open up brain cells that may have been clogged up in certain areas because they just didn't think out of that side of the brain. So, you know, this is a book--and also, you know, even from a spiritual point of view, because I share a lot of my spirituality. I share a lot of my wins, my losses. Like, real intimate experiences that I know we all go through, you know what I mean? We all lose someone that's close to us, and, you know, they need to know that, you know, one don't have to throw in the towel because of, you know, things like that happen. So my story is a story that, in some capacity, the world gonna be able to relate to it.Zach: Man. That's amazing, man. So, you know, this has been a dope conversation. Before we let you go, do you have you any shout outs or parting words of wisdom, man, for the audience?J Prince: Hey, man, I--you know, when I think about what I tapped into to really, like, encourage me to--you know, I felt like it was me against the world sometimes. It was--you know, breaking that poverty curse where my family was concerned, with my loved ones, my kids, my mother, you know what I mean? Every time I thought about, "I've got to be the one to break this poverty curse," you know? I reached and grabbed energy out of nowhere, and I think, you know, everybody that's listening that's trying to accomplish anything, it's good to tap into that power that's greater than the power of defeat, you know what I mean? Whether you--I don't care where you are in life. If you have that power that exists that you can tap into, "I'm doing this for this," then that's a power that's gonna be stronger than defeat.Zach: Awesome, man. Well, look, that does it for us here on the Living Corporate podcast. Thank you guys for checking us out. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with J Prince. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with Drew MacFadyen aka @VeryWhiteGuy to discuss allyship, his dope wife Leslie and tips for white men to support inclusion and diversity in the workplace. Length: 21:27Host: Zach Interracial Jawn http://interracialjawn.com/Leslie Mac https://twitter.com/LeslieMacTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you’re listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we’ve introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode--remember, guys--is someone’s first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--yes, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they’re discussions that the hosts have internally that we share with you guys. Sometimes they are extended monologues. Or maybe they’re a chat with a special guest, and guess what? Today we have such a guest, Drew MacFadyen. Drew is the Vice President of Sales and Marketing at the busiest website in human translation in the world. In addition to his professional work, Drew is passionate about anti-racism and social inequity, known in that domain as Drew and @VeryWhiteGuy, and I can confirm--he is very white. He and his wife lead an organization called Interracial Jawn, where they discuss pop culture, TV, movies, and current events from their unique perspectives as a Very White Guy and a mostly black woman. Drew, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing? Drew: I’m well. You set the bar--that intro set it very, very high, I feel.  Zach: [laughs] Drew: I usually like to under-promise and over-deliver and you’ve really--you set it high, but I’ll try. I’ll try my best. Thank you, man. Like, I appreciate it. Zach: No problem, man. So look, recently on the show we’ve discussed the concept of allyship in Corporate America. Were you able to check the episode out? And if so, what did you think about it? Drew: I did listen to the last episode, and forgive me, I can’t remember the author, the woman you had on as a guest. Zach: Amy. Yeah, Amy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Drew: So I did listen to the episode, and I agree with almost everything Amy said, you know? She was pretty spot on. I thought it was a good episode. White anti-racists, myself included, have a history of being real kind of, like, condescending and holier-than-thou, particularly with other white folks. Like, “woker than you” is, like, a thing.  Zach: [laughs] Drew: You know what I’m talking about? Like, on Twitter you’ll see white folks kind of, like, piling on to, like, you know, “I’m the most woke, and therefore this or that.” So I really liked what Amy had to say, and I think everything she said was really accurate, but I do struggle a little bit--and just, again, you referenced the podcast that I have, and I’m married to Leslie, and she goes on Twitter as LeslieMac. She’s an actual activist and an organizer and has done some really amazing things and, you know, I’ve seen her work, you know, commodified, stolen, outright taken. Twitter threads turned into articles in the New York Post kind of thing. Like, actually I’ve seen that happen. Zach: Wow. Drew: So I sometimes struggle with--I don’t want to say white folks making money [inaudible], but there’s a little bit of a--call it, like, the ally industrial complex thing where--and we white folk love education for education’s sake, and I myself am guilty of this, right? So there’s a period where I was like, “Oh, my gosh. I want to learn and tell everyone else, and I want to share this thing, and I’m gonna share that,” and even on my own podcast I’ve asked, “Whose benefit is this for? Is this really--what’s this doing?” But I think Amy’s doing, you know, like, legitimate work within the corporate structure, but I struggle a little bit with white folk becoming experts in some regard on anti-racism, inequity diversity, whatever you want to call it, and then profiting. You know, call it, like, the [ten wives?] syndrome, and that’s a real privileged place for me to come from. I have a--as you introduced, I have a normal day job. I do well, I get paid. I provide. You know, I’m in sales. I bring in a lot of value, and so I can say the things that I do I don’t need to make money with it, but that’s certainly not the case for most folks. It’s a capitalistic world. You gotta make a living, but I agree with what Amy said in terms of white folk having to really sort of be responsible for dismantling systems of oppression. And that maybe was the other--sometimes I struggle with the education for education’s sake ‘cause there’s often that last step. You know, how does that lead to--and I would ask Amy. I think you asked a lot of really pointed--and I was almost, like, worried. I was like, “God, Zach asked, like, some tough questions. I hope I’m prepared.” Zach: [laughs] Drew: But where does the work that any of us do lead to action in terms of dismantling systems of supremacy? And that’s, you know--and I ask that to myself and I don’t always have the answer. That might have been where I was left wanting. Zach: No, I hear you, and I’m curious actually--you know, what do you think about the term “ally?” Like, what do you think about that term? ‘Cause I know it’s a loaded word, right? And a lot of people have various feelings about it. I’m curious of how you feel about that word. Drew: I don’t like it. I don’t use it. I find it self-referential. If someone used it in regards to me I’m not gonna, like, be mad about it. I understand it more as a verb than as a noun, but I think a lot of people like it as a noun. And I just think the bar for what we--and even, you know, listening to the podcast, and you’ve got Amy, and you’ve got me on, and I’m thinking, “Well, why?” You know, “Why?” I’ve got a Twitter handle, VeryWhiteGuy. I’ve said a few things. I think because I’m white, you know, people give me--my voice has a little bit more, quote-unquote, cachet as an anti-racist individual. There’s not as many white dudes being actively anti-racist, but ally to me is just--the bar is so low. It’s so low. Like, my wife tells the joke, like, “Two allies walked into a bar… ‘cause it’s just so low,” and that works for any--you know, male feminists walk into a bar… ‘cause the bar was set so low.” So I don’t really like it. I don’t often use it, but if someone used it, fine. I think it also--it, to me, has this sort of connotation of, like, finality, right? Like, “Oh, I’m an ally! And, you know, I’m done.” Kinda like [inaudible], you know, more so than just sort of saying you’re an ally or just one person saying you’re an ally. You know, like, it’s really what have I done, what are my actions, more than what label, you know? Zach: No, absolutely. I’m curious, right? So we talked about--in the intro I talked a little bit about your VP role in sales, and you’ve alluded to the fact that, you know, you do well in the corporate space. I’m curious, before Interracial Jawn, which we’re gonna get to in a minute, can you talk to me about how you demonstrated or how you practiced anti-racist behaviors in the workplace? And I ask because when I look at your Twitter feed--VeryWhiteGuy, check him out, y’all. VeryWhiteGuy. The theme of your language is all about intentionality and action, and you really alluded to it just now when you talked about the term allyship and the concept of allyship. So I’m curious, what actions were you taking before you had the platform of Interracial Jawn to really demonstrate--and I won’t say allyship, but--support, you know, for people of color? Drew: That’s a good question, and I don’t know if I’ve always succeeded, you know? I think, as a white anti-racist individual, it’s a journey from, you know, indoctrinated to doing less harm, and there’s no terminal. It’s not like, “Oh, I’m finished.” I’m just trying to do less harm, and there’s steps forward and steps back, and certainly there’s been jobs and work and opportunities that I’ve missed, I’m sure. You know, I think the--when I think of allyship, right? And again, I should give a lot of credence to my wife, Leslie Mac. I’ve been married to her for 15 years, so a lot of this may be framing her language as coming from my learning from her [inaudible], but shifting dollars and resources, you know? I think--my wife always says that marginalized folks in communities, they know what they need and they know how to solve their problems. They just need, you know, access, dollars, resources. So I try to do that, and I don’t always have--you know, have, like, hiring authority at every job I’ve been at. I don’t have the ability to say who does what, who gets on what committee, but where I do have some say--so there’s an event I produce, and there’s speakers, and we get folks online to watch it, and maybe thousands of people watch it, but I was really proud that we had--and in the language or translation [inaudible], there’s a lot of women. It tends to be heavily represented on the women’s side and relatively on the Latina side, but I had mostly women of color, I think three or four black women as panelists and speakers. Those are active decisions on my part. I have a platform and an ability. If I’m gonna be compensating individuals, I’d rather it be women, black women. I’m gonna expose folks, thousands of folks who are gonna be watching these panelists. I don’t want it to be all white men. I had another job where I did have some hiring authority, and I would--you know, I was proud of the fact that I hired a few black candidates that did really well and stayed on, but really just shifting power and resources, you know? That could be you’re in a--I heard your guest Amy, and you were talking about this, you know, that women or a black person might say something, and five minutes later a white person says the same thing and it’s like, “Oh, my God! The white person’s a genius!” Zach: Right. [laughs] Drew: You know? Say something. Stand up. You know, support. You know, in different places they call it I think progressive stack, so I’ve done that in meetings. You know, “Hey, we haven’t heard from her.” You know, “This person hasn’t spoken in a while.” I had a job interview--and I think, again, I talk about action because there should be risk, and that’s why I sometimes question when white folks are making money educating other white folks on how to be better. That just sort of rubs me the wrong way, but in terms of taking risks and doing things, I’ve had vendors and interviews where I’ve asked, you know, “How many black people do you have on staff? How diverse is your--what’s your corporate culture like?” And that doesn’t always go well, you know? That doesn’t--I don’t always have the answers I want to hear, you know? But I would say what have I done? I tried to just be better. I tried to be a better individual and amplify and make sure marginalized folks are--I think Amy even said it. If they’re not in the room, do what you can to make sure their voices are represented, and try to get them in the room, and just, everywhere you can, shift power and resources.  Zach: And it’s funny that you’d say that because, you know, even when I think about Living Corporate, right? So, like, we’re a startup, you know? And I think about--when you talk about just power and resources, it’s like--there are a lot of things that we want to do, and there are things that we have planned in the future, and we have all these plans and, like, the main barrier at this point, Drew--and not even barrier, but the thing that would accelerate those things is just [break?] it. Like, we don’t need a bunch of people telling us what to do. Of course we take--you know, we’ll take feedback and coaching and all that kind of stuff, but my point is, you know, it’s the resources. Like, we need the resources, and so I think that that applies to your wife Leslie’s point. It applies across the board. Like, plenty of black folks, we have--and just people of color in general, marginalized people. There’s plenty of visionaries and things like that, but because of the way that things are set up structurally and have been set up historically and systemically, the resources create a barrier. So I’m curious, right? You know, we talked a little bit about Interracial Jawn in your intro, but can you talk more about it, its origin, and what it aims to achieve? Drew: Yeah, and you said you were gonna ask me that, and I kinda had to think ‘cause it was sort of--we’ve been married now for over 15 years, and we’ve been together quite a bit, and it’s strange that our podcast is called the Interracial Jawn because I don’t think we think of ourselves interracially often. Like, I don’t think that defines us so much, but, I mean, she’s a black woman, and she works in liberation organizing. So I guess that is--you know, it’s a part of our existence, but I don’t think we think of it very often, but when we made the podcast we were--at the time we lived in Philadelphia, and we lived there for a decade, and jawn is just sort of like an adjective that’s used for anything and everything. Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It’s made its way down to Houston too. We say it down here from time to time. I do anyway. Drew: Sweet. I didn’t know that. I guess it’s like John, J-O-H-N, or joint. Some people would use it sort of [inaudible], but so we called it the Interracial Jawn, and we don’t I even think talk that much about us being interracial, but we talk about a lot of different politics, and we just started a podcast ‘cause we wanted to do it, and we talked a lot, and we’d sit around and just, you know, by ourselves chit-chatting. We said, “You know, let’s record it. If somebody listens, all right, cool,” and for a bit it was really just a lab--and it still is a labor of love. You do a podcast and it’s not exactly a millionaire’s [inaudible], but we did it, and people listened and responded and subscribed, and we said, “Okay, we’ll keep doing it.” So we enjoy it, but it’s really just sort of--it’s more for us and just sort of time to unwind and chit-chat and connect and talk about the news and stuff that’s going on. Zach: That’s really cool, man, you know? And shout out to Leslie. I think it’s amazing that, you know, at every point and turn in this conversation, you know, you’ve referenced something that your wife has told you, right? So, like, shout out to black women in general. Sound Man, go ahead and put them air horns in here just for black women. For Leslie for sure, but then black women in general. [Sound Man comes through with it] Zach: So I’m curious, what advice, right? Now, you talked about--you said, you know, for you, the way that you practice, again for the lack of a better word, allyship in the corporate space is by just being better, but what advice or resources would you point white men to, in corporate America, to be better for everybody else? Drew: That’s a good question, and I don’t know the answer to that. Maybe--you referenced black women, and Twitter’s been a great resource. It’s relatively free. Certainly be aware that you’re consuming folks, and try to drop a dollar on their PayPal, Cash.me, or Patreon if they have it. But yeah, there’s been--I would say just about everything I know when it comes to--I was thinking again. I said I don’t like white folk being experts on race, and [if someone asks?] me I say, “No, I’m not an expert on race.” You know, [I’ve got the?] Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 Hour theory. You know, you’ve lived your entire life as a black individual in a white supremacist society. That’s more than 10,000 hours. You’re [inaudible] an expert. When you say, “Hey, that’s racist, so listen and believe black folk, amplify black folk,” but, you know, I’m not an expert on that at all. The only thing I know is sort of my journey on how I’ve sort of learned to be less harmful I guess, and this is all stuff that’s on Twitter and smarter, you know, usually black women, like you said, have written about this, but it took me a while to just sort of learn not just what people are saying but to process it a little bit differently. So [inaudible] if you’ve been this work at all for even a minute and you’re a white dude, you’ve heard “Shut up.” You know? “Sit down. Shut up. Be quiet. Don’t take up space,” and I knew that. Enough people had said it to me that I’d go to--you know, when we lived in Philadelphia there was a great group that I think is still around, REAL Justice Philadelphia. But so we’d go to meetings. There’s hundreds of people there, and of course I’m not gonna say a word. I’m gonna sit down. I’m not gonna say anything and be quiet, and I’ve been to many of these meetings, and again, I understand fundamentally to be quiet and not take up space, but my mind would keep kind of rolling and think, “Oh, what about this? What about that? What about this?” And there might have been--I can’t remember the exact instance, but there’s finally something where, again, my wife made fun of me like, “Okay, very white guy.” Like, “They don’t need your help.” You know? [inaudible]. And then it was like--you know, joking and sarcastic, but I was like, “Oh, my God.” Like, “She’s really right.” So the concept of sit down and be quiet, don’t take up space, I understood it differently over a period of time. My different understanding was “Oh, I’m a neophyte. I don’t really know anything. I need to really just sit down and absorb and really process,” and if I’m thinking of things--and that’s, again, as a white dude, the world has told me, as a white man, my opinion is valued. It’s needed. It’s necessary. My two cents are desired, and I can solve it. And yeah, it’s about, you know, allyship in the corporate world, [inaudible]. I remember--not, like, embarrassed, but I’ve been in a room full of people and pounded my fist on the desk and raised my voice and gotten what I wanted and things done, and that modality is, like, a sock that you’ve worn your whole life, a glove that fits seamlessly. It’s just real easy, so to not be a cisgendered heterosexual white male that raises his voice and, you know, reverts to Angry White Dude to get what he wants, that takes vigilance, you know? It’s kind of like actively not trying to be a horrible person. You just--you slip into it so easily. So I would say, as a white man, just be aware, you know? Understand. Like, just understand conditioned fragility and then defensiveness, you know? I think it’s a lot easier. Understand how to apologize. Know that you’re gonna mess up, and be prepared. I’ve messed up plenty, and not--yeah, I’m [trying?] “Don’t mess up.” [laughs] Don’t [inaudible], but, like, many people are willing to forgive and stay in community with me after a mistake, but very few would be willing to remain in community if I made a mistake and then spent an hour being defensive and fragile about it, you know? Like, “I didn’t mean it that way. I’m so sorry. I wasn’t trying to be racist.” So, like, I would just say to other, you know, especially white dudes, we’re gonna mess up, you know? The world has catered to us for a long time, so sit down, listen, be quiet, and when you mess up, you know, acknowledge it. Accept it. Know how to apologize. “I’m sorry. I’ll do better.” That goes a long way. Those three little things will get you really far. Zach: Man, you ain’t lyin’, because I have--you know, I have some white male friends, and when they practice those things they just apologize--and we’re friends. Like, they’re some of my closest friends, right? And because they practice those behaviors that you’re talking about we continue to be friends, and actually our relationship gets better after every mess up, and, you know, I’m there with you. I’m curious, you know, before we wrap, do you have any shout outs or any parting words? This has been a dope conversation. I want to make sure anything else you’d like to say or anybody you’d like to thank or just shout out in general, man. Drew: Ah, thank you for this opportunity and having me on the show. I appreciate it. As I said, the real deal in the household is my wife, Leslie Mac, and she’s on Twitter. You can follow her @LeslieMac. She’s got a Patreon, so you can support her that way, and we’ve got a podcast, Interracial Jawn, and that’s J-A-W-N. We don’t tweet much, but we’d love to have you listen to the show and follow us. But to your last point, let me--my little follow-up to your comment, I really--I have individuals in my life that I’m accountable to, both white and black, and when I mess up and they say, “Hey, you know what, this came off wrong,” or “I think there’s [inaudible] a certain way,” man, that’s like a gift, you know? Not only have I learned not to get fragile and defensive about it, but after I think, like, “Wow, they care enough about me as a person that they’re gonna A. let me know and B. give me an opportunity to do better,” right? Like, you know, if I really don’t like you and you mess up, I’m gonna be like, “Get out of here. Whatever,” but if [inaudible] it’s like, “Hey, you know what? What you did--let me pull you aside and really kind of--” So if you--when you get called in, called out, whichever it is, accept it as a gift because it really is. Honest to goodness, it really, truly is. It’s a gift to be able to learn how to be a better person, and not enough people are willing to receive that gift in the proper way. So be better, white dudes. Me included. Zach: [laughs] Man, this has been awesome. Look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. Check us out on Patreon @LivingCorporate. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you’ve been talking to Drew, A.K.A. @VeryWhiteGuy. Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, we discuss the topic of allyship and sit down with Author, Public Speaker, Educator, and CEO of Lead at Any Level, Amy C. Waninger to discuss what allyship looks like practically in the workplace.Length: 45:09Hosts: Zach | Ade#LeadatAnyLevel #Favethings #PatreonOur Patreon (and other links): https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateAmy C. Waninger's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycwaninger/Buy Amy's book here: https://amzn.to/2ztwZaUTRANSCRIPTAde: “First, I must confess that over the past few years I’ve been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” This excerpt from Martin Luther King’s letter from a Birmingham jail highlights a point in his movement where he was particularly frustrated, and as he wrote here, his frustration was not with those who were very clearly against him but were with those who were, in his words, lukewarm to his cause of social equity. From my perspective, I realize that I probably will constantly face opposition. My real question is “What does true support look like?” This is Ade, and you’re listening to Living Corporate.  Zach: Whoo, that was a heavy quote. Ade: Yeah. It’s--I mean, it’s kind of weird that so far we haven’t quoted Martin Luther King, Jr., I think. But, you know, whatever. Considering our show. Zach: Fair enough. So today we’re talking about effective allyship in Corporate America, and honestly I’m really excited we’re discussing this today. When you talk about Living Corporate and the fact that we’re trying to highlight the views of under-represented people in Corporate America, a lot of that has to do with how we partner and get partnership from people that don’t look like us. Ade: Right. And honestly, just the world and the context in which we’re living, it’s so weird. Like, it’s, you know, simultaneously more diverse than ever, and more voices are popping up and, you know, demanding to be heard, but at the same time there is this relentless push back, and it feels like the more voices pop up, the more there’s this, like, push to maintain the status quo, just whatever against the idea of recognizing the truth and reality of all of these different experiences. Zach: Oh, you’re absolutely right. I mean, honestly, when you talk about, like, the reality of different experiences at work, right? So at all of the different places I’ve been, every job I’ve had so far had some type of ERG or employee resource group or affinity group or whatever you want to call them, but that’s kind of where they just group people by their identities, right? Or by how they believe people identify themselves primarily, and 99% of the time--I’ll say it this way. I can count on one hand how many discussions I’ve had at work around race that weren’t like, “Oh, you’re black? Well, yeah. We have, like, this black stuff over here.” Like, “You can just go over there with all the other black people, and y’all can be black - together.” Ade: Okay, so I’m curious. Ever, over the course of your professional career, just an instance really of someone being in your corner--someone obviously being someone who did not have a marginalized identity within that context, someone who really practiced effective allyship, who had your back in tense situations. Zach: That’s a really good question. You know what? I think so. So one time I was at work, right? And every time I would be in these meetings, like for a particular project, I would get ignored. Like, I would speak up, and I’d say something. I’d give a point, I’d ask a question. I’d say something, and it would get ignored. But then the people on my project, my colleagues, they would then say what I just said, and then they would get applauded, right? Yes, and it happened all the time. Ade: Ugh. Been there. Zach: So finally this white knight--and no pun intended considering the quote that we gave at the top of the show, it was actually a good thing--this paragon of parity, this champion, he approached the project manager at the end of one of these meetings and in a hushed but direct tone said, “Hey, the way you’re treating Zach seems odd.” Ade: Uh… is that it? Zach: Yeah, that’s it. Ade: Okay. So, um, that sounds nice, and to be real, like, I am not necessarily expecting, you know, knights to come up and, you know, duel people to the death for our honor or throw on their capes and leap from one building of oppression to the next to try to save us all. I just--I feel like it’s hard enough being, like we’ve said multiple times on this show, one of the onlys in a work environment. It’s hard enough when you feel like you’re just at it by yourself. Sometimes, all it really does take is that one quiet conversation to feel like you’re not alone, and I really want to focus on the concept of people who are dedicated, not just, you know, having the idea of allyship but dedicated to using their privilege and their space and their social capital and their power in ways that benefit the people around them who lack that same social capital, and, you know, sometimes a little bit of the coded language, a little bit of the flexing of social capital muscle, goes a really, really long way. Zach: I mean, it would be great if we could speak to someone, perhaps someone who is not an ethnic minority. Someone who maybe they wrote a book about unconscious bias and diversity and inclusion in the workplace? Someone who’s had many public speaking engagements and who’s the CEO of a firm that promotes in the trenches leadership, diversity and inclusion and career management through mentoring, public speaking engagements and other offerings? Ade: Are you talking about our guest, Amy C. Waninger?  Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat? Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on, you know what it is. Give me [inaudible]. [Sound Man complies] Ade: Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Zach: We’re gonna get into our interview with our guest, Amy C. Waninger.  Zach: And we’re back, and we said before, we have Amy C. Waninger here with us on the show today. Amy, thank you for joining us today. Amy: Thank you for having me, Zach. I’m excited to be here. Zach: Absolutely, excited to have you here. Would you mind--for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Amy: Absolutely. I started my career in 1999 as a software developer and, you know, kind of went through all of the bubbles and bursts in the early 2000s in IT. For about the last 10 to 12 years I’ve been in the management space, so progressive management roles in and around information technology, and in the last 10 years I’ve focused on the insurance industry. I recently started my own company, Lead At Any Level, LLC, and through Lead At Any Level I do authorship of, you know, a blog. I have a book out, as you know, and public speaking engagements, training sessions, coaching, individually consulting around career management, diversity and inclusion, and leadership skills. Zach: You have written a book called Network Beyond Bias. Can you explain the title? Amy: Okay, sure. So that--it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll try to make it as quick as I can here. So the word Beyond was really important to me. I did a--I went through a process with a woman named Erin Weed. She has a company called Evoso, and she does this process that she calls a dig, and she helps you get to a word that is powerful for you. It’s this very structured, important, detailed process around how you get to this word, and the word that I chose for myself at the end of this was the word “beyond” because beyond has a lot of power for me, you know? The idea that wherever you are today, you can get beyond. Whatever horizon you can see, you can go beyond it, and so the title comes from the need to network with diverse populations and with people, you know, with all different perspectives, and I don’t believe that we can undo our biases necessarily, and we shouldn’t ignore them. We need to accept that they’re there and then move beyond them, and the subtitle, Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage For Your Career, came from what I saw as a gap in the diversity and inclusion consulting space and even in the writing about diversity and inclusion in the corporate world that we tend to target organizations or senior leaders in that conversation and not engage people at the everyday level. You know, just everyday individual contributors that are maybe trying to move ahead in their careers, and that was important to me for a couple of reasons. Number one, I think people who--by the time they’re in the C-Suite or they’ve got the VP titles or, you know, they’re pretty high up in these large companies, I think they’re very entrenched and engaged in the way things are and not necessarily looking to change because they know how to play the game as it exists today. And, you know, for people who are struggling to get into that in-group that can be really challenging, so I wanted to focus on people who maybe haven’t made it as far as they want to go yet and want to get there but get there in a very inclusive way, and so how can individuals engage in the diversity and inclusion conversation in a way that feels authentic for them? And there’s some element of--I don’t know how to explain it. There’s some element of just because it’s the right thing to do, right? Not altruism, but doing the right thing, but also in a way that helps them move forward in their own careers, because I really feel like if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today--and I kind of wrap up the book with this--if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today in being more inclusive and kind of changing the way we network and changing the way these conversations happen for our careers, we can make lasting changes that will get us to, you know, get more diverse representation in the C-Suite. Zach: You know what? It’s interesting that that’s your answer because it leads me into my next question, which is actually--I’m gonna lead in by reading an excerpt from your book, okay? So I’ma read this excerpt. “In the United States, few words are more polarizing than race and racism, yet Americans suffer from constant racial tension, race-based economic disparities and institutionalized racism. If we are to change this, white Americans must listen to those experiences and perspectives that could inform and enlighten us. Our blindness to our privilege is oppressive. Our sense of entitlement is embarrassing.” So I’ve read your book. Really genuinely enjoyed. Amy: Thank you. Zach: Like, as a black man I was like, “Wow, I’m really surprised there’s a white person saying this.” Right? Like, I was very surprised. I’ve read content in the past, like from various authors, who have a similar tone, but they’re typically not white. In this you allude to allyship, so could you first expound on this excerpt and then help us understand what you mean by being an ally and being someone who listens and learns and things of that nature? Amy: Sure. So I’m gonna start by saying that I’m really grateful that you’re calling attention to this chapter. This chapter, writing that chapter about race, was the hardest part of writing the book, and the book almost didn’t get written because I knew that I couldn’t write a book about diversity and inclusion without acknowledging that I’m white, and I didn’t--I struggled so much with how to write about that in a way that was from my perspective but not exclusive of other perspectives, and I struggled with how to write it in a way that was genuine and authentic without--you know, there’s a lot wrapped up in the word “race” for everybody, and, you know, as a white woman I think that, you know, I’ve heard other white people say it’s important for us to talk about this because white folks have access to conversations and audiences that people of color do not, and I think until I wrote about this, on my blog and in my book, I didn’t really understand what that meant. So getting back to your question though, I think allyship is important because as you noted, I--you know, I exist in a white world. I mean, that’s just--that’s my reality, right? The environment that I grew up in--I grew up in southern Indiana in a rural community that was 99.9% white, non-Hispanic, and I was--you know, I was kind of the ethnic one in the room most of the time because I wasn’t German and Catholic, you know? I was different, and I wasn’t that different, right? So, you know, it’s been hard for me to get to a place where I can understand my role in the race conversation, and it wasn’t that I grew up necessarily thinking that--I didn’t grow up thinking that racism was okay. I mean, that was, you know, very ingrained in me from an early age, but what racism meant in an all-white community, it was still racism, right? Even if you weren’t racist, like, it was still a racist environment because there was no--there was no one different. So it’s been an evolution for me over, you know, the course of time, and when I wrote the chapter on race and the blog post on race, I actually reached out to a couple of people of color in my network, and I said, “I would like some feedback on this. I would like some help with this,” and Sabrina Bristow, a friend of mine from North Carolina, she does social justice work in the human services space of government, and she helped me with that chapter. And I actually--I kind of had started a little too advanced, she thought, for most white people, so I had to backtrack a little bit and include, “Okay, here are some things I’m getting right already,” right? By including people of color in my network and, you know, having genuine relationships, and going out of my way to find people and to build relationships across racial boundaries, because it’s very easy for us, for anyone, to stay in their neighborhood, to stay in their enclave, right? And we’re a very segregated society, especially--you know, I think--in the northern states I think we’re a little more segregated even because of public policy that drove segregation kind of under the--you know, under the covers. It wasn’t explicit, right? But it was perhaps--and I hate to use the word effective because it sounds positive and it’s not, but, you know, it was perhaps a more lasting segregation in the north because it was policy that was guiding it, and it was subversive policy at that. You know, in the south, where it was very explicit, it was easier to undo. So I’ve had to learn all of this because this isn’t what we’re taught in schools, and it’s not--you know, if you pick up the newspaper or magazines or, you know, if you read white bloggers, you don’t read about this. What I’ve had to do is I’ve had to expand where I get my information and who I listen to and what those people learn. So, you know, you get a much different perspective if you--I’ll get outside of the black and white, you know, racial categories for a moment--if you read books for Asian-Americans written by Asian-American authors, for example, about the corporate landscape, what you read sounds much different than, you know, what you might get if you are in a meeting with a bunch of managers and there’s, you know, a 5-minute section on how to include Asian-Americans in your work [inaudible], right? It’s just different. It’s a different perspective. Zach: Yeah. Amy: And so, you know, I started listening and learning that I need to go where I’m a fly on the wall listening to how people talk amongst themselves about the problems that they’re facing, and then I need to figure out how I can--when those perspectives are not represented in a room that I’m in, how can I bring those perspectives to light so that the people who are in the room understand that their perspective isn’t the only one that matters just because they’re the only ones in the room? Zach: As an ally, how do you balance being vocal while not, I don’t know, talking too much? Like, do you have any type of rules that you follow to not, in a sense, colonize the movements and spaces you want to support? Amy: Yeah. So I knew that you were gonna ask me that question, so thank you for that in advance, and I struggled with it originally because I don’t have hard and fast rules. I think the guidelines that I try to follow are--I’ve come to the realization that when people are in the majority in a room, any room, they’re very candid, and perhaps too candid sometimes, right, that they divulge things that they probably shouldn’t. People tend to be very candid when they’re in--like, especially in a super majority in a room. People who are in a minority in a room tend to be very emotionally intelligent, right? Because speaking up can be threatening, and so what I’ve found is if I’m in a space where I’m a minority, if, you know, maybe I’m the only white person in the room--maybe I’m the only non-Hispanic in the room, maybe I’m the only woman in the room. That happens quite a bit. You know, I tend to be more in listening mode and receiving mode, and I try not to ask a lot of questions because I don’t want other people to have to educate me, but I think about those questions, and then I can go research them later. I can contemplate or I can read and, you know, not stop the conversation because, you know, the white lady has a question, right? Let the conversation continue as it is, and I can absorb and kind of take that away. But then when something comes up where I feel like someone else is being dismissed, that’s when I speak up. So I have a hard time speaking up for myself. If I’m feeling defensive about--you know, like I said, I grew up in technology, and I started in ‘99, and I was frequently told, you know, “Oh, you’re really analytical for a girl,” or, you know, “Wow, you code really well for a woman,” you know? And I would just kind of roll my eyes, and if I said anything back it was usually not--it was usually not work-appropriate if I said something back. Let’s just leave it at that. And so I got to the point where I was like, “You know what? I’m not even gonna address these things,” but where I have learned that there’s power and where I think you build respect and you can become an ally--I don’t think you make a decision to be an ally and you are one, and I would never use the word ally to describe myself without first saying, “I aspire to be an ally,” because I think it’s ongoing work. I don’t think you can give yourself that title. I think someone else has to give it to you. Zach: Wow, yeah. Amy: But the ways in--I’m sorry, go ahead. Zach: I was just saying wow. Like, yes, absolutely. I’m listening to you. Amy: Yeah. So the way I aspire to be an ally and the way I aspire to do the work of an ally is to recognize what perspectives are missing, and if those perspectives were in the room and had a voice, what would they say? Or if those perspectives are in the room and don’t feel like they have a voice, can I make space for that? Can I stop the conversation so that someone else who is maybe not in the super majority in the room can speak up? Or, even more importantly, can I say “Hold on, I think if we look at this from a different perspective,” and then I can share what I’ve learned by being in those spaces, right? In those spaces that are predominantly of color or, you know, in different ways so that I can help bridge that gap and sort of make that translation so that it doesn’t always fall on the one black person in the room or the one Hispanic person in the room or, you know, the one Asian-American in the room to speak up, right? To me that’s allyship, not making people advocate for themselves all the time. You have to advocate in a way that includes them. Zach: Yeah. You talked a little bit about gender diversity and you being the only woman in the room, and I can empathize. I can’t sympathize, right? But I can empathize, and let me confess something, like, with that in mind. For me, it’s deeply frustrating when I see diversity and inclusion programs only focus on gender diversity, right? So, like, if you look at the tech space, and if you ask, like, the common, average person--we have this app called Fishbowl, which is, like, an anonymous posting app for consultants, and there are times when I’ve seen people post questions like, “What do you think about the diversity and inclusion at your work?” And most people--typically people tend to be a little bit more honest on these anonymous online threads, for good or bad--they’ll say, “Well, it’s good for white women,” right? And so for me, I agree with that, right? Outside looking in as a black man, like, just my perspective, it seems as if these programs are very much so focused on gender diversity but don’t really look at the cross-section of the ethnic diversity or the sexual orientation diversity, right? So in your book you talk about representation in the C-Suite, in chapter 33. Can you talk more about that particular chapter and the things that you wrote around that topic? Amy: Sure, and I don’t have the book in front of me so I’m gonna not speak specifically to the numbers… Zach: Sure. [laughs] Amy: [laughs] Because I don’t have the numbers memorized. That’s why there’s a book. You know, the representation of women I think--of white women, and I want to be clear that we’re talking--and I think you and I spoke about this before we did the interview, right? Zach: Right. Amy: We talked about we get these numbers about, you know, pay disparity, and we say it’s 83 cents on the dollar for women, and that’s not true. It’s 83 cents on the dollar for white women. The numbers for, you know, women of color get worse and worse, right, as you start going down the list. So, you know, black women make less than white women, Latina women make less than that, indigenous women--you know, I don’t even know if they collect the data on that, right? It’s ridiculous the disparity between white women and women of color, and when we talk about women, right, we tend to talk about women as if that’s all women, and it’s not. It’s white women, so let’s be very clear about that. White women make up--and I want to say it’s less than 6% of the C-Suite, right? Of CEO positions in the United States, and I think there were, like, 27 this year out of the Fortune 500. So we’re talking, like, itty-bitty numbers, right? But white women have better representation in the C-Suite at their 4 or 5% or whatever it is, have better representation in the CEO spots of the Fortune 500 than do all people of color, and so I agree with you. I think that it’s a missed opportunity when we--you know, I think ERGs are important, and I talk about that in the book too, employee resource groups and how it can help you connect in spaces that are affinity groups for you, and it can help you connect in spaces that are not affinity groups for you so you can understand different perspectives, but I think one of the things that that can do if we’re not careful is it can kind of divide people up where the employee resource group for women ends up being all white women because women of color identify as, you know, Latina or, you know, African-American first and women second, and the pride ERG is the same way by the way. I think, you know, a lot of times the LGBTQ community is the white LGBTQ community and ignores the perspectives of people of color and, you know, assumes, right, “Well, if they’re here they’ll find us because they’re gay,” and that’s the most important thing to the LGBTQ community that’s white is that they’re gay, but, you know, for--you know, for Asian-Americans or Hispanic-Americans or black Americans that may also be LGBTQ, that’s not the first thing people recognize about them, and so their primary identity is in the racial--you know, in the racial or ethnic category. So all of that to say I don’t think we should cut people up. I think what we should do instead is, you know, recognize that feminism has been white feminism for a long time. You know, white women have benefited a lot from not just their own advocacy but also from the civil rights movement and the African-American civil rights movement of the ‘60s, and instead of claiming ours and then hoping that other people will follow or, you know, “Once we get there we’ll reach out our hand,” I think is the absolute wrong approach. I think what we need to do instead is when white women hear that, oh, we make 83 cents on the dollar, I think it’s incumbent upon us, it’s imperative for us to say, “That’s not the number for women. That’s the number for white women,” and we need to be the ones, white women need to be the ones to stand up to say, “Look, this is not an inclusive conversation just because you’re talking about me. That doesn’t mean you’re being inclusive of everyone.” And, you know, we all face the same systemic issues, right? White women face a lot of the same issues that people of color face that, you know, people who are immigrants face, but the way we’ve carved up the problem it’s like we’re each trying to get our own seat, and what my book seeks to do is to get everybody, like, wherever they are, to start reaching out. So it’s almost--instead of one person trying to break through, it’s more like a game of Red Rover, right, where we’re all holding hands, we’re all moving forward together, and then when we get there we all get there together. And then our C-Suite isn’t, you know, 10 white men and two white women and maybe a person of color, it’s, you know, this whole Red Rover game of black, white, Hispanic, gay, straight, you know, Asian, men, women, non-binary, cisgender, transgender, you know, abled, people with disabilities. You know, it’s all these things, and we all get there together and we all lift each other up. Zach: Hm. So talk to me a little bit about Lead At Any Level. So I know that you intro’d with that, about the company that you’ve started, and you’ve shared that you’re from Indianapolis and that you engage in predominantly white spaces. So I’m not trying to be pessimistic, right, but I’m looking at… Amy: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] I’m looking at American history, and I’m also looking at the words that you wrote in your book, and I’m curious, like, how do you expect to break through and work past, as you’ve described it, the entitlement of white folks? I ask because I’d say any time we as Americans talk about race--so, like, if you want to look at the situation around kneeling, if you want to talk about even how we talk about diversity, and we say, “Well, it’s about thought diversity,” and if you want to talk about--any time that we’ve in the past I would say 54--really the past 400 years, but just looking at, like, our most recent era of just, like, the past 50, 60 years, we talk about race within the context of making sure that the majority is comfortable with the ways that we engage topics around race. So I’m curious as someone who’s starting a company, or rather who has started a company really tackling this subject, how do you plan on breaking through and navigating that? Amy: Sure. So people of color can’t fix racism, right? People of color can--there are all of these--you know, there’s, like, respectability politics, and I know that there’s a lot of code switching, and there are all of these things that happen within communities and within just the mindset and the sort of the self-censoring people of color, right? And no matter what happens, right, whether it’s a protest--you know, someone kneeling for the anthem because of, you know, the pain in this country that’s happening, right, or, you know--it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, right? If you march, it’s the wrong march. If you speak, it’s the wrong words. If you protest, it’s the wrong protest. If you’re quiet, it’s the wrong thing. You know? We’ve tried every combination of people of color doing things to try to end racism, and where racism needs to end is in white America. Like, white folks are the ones who are gonna have to step up and fix this because we’re the ones that are perpetuating the problem. So I want to be clear. My company is not--the stated purpose of my company is not “end racism in the United States,” and I know there are people for whom that is their mission, right? That is their work. What I want to do is I want to help individuals at all levels of organizations see that if they’re not accepting and welcoming and doing hard work around their own biases and their own privileges and understanding that maybe--you know, maybe yeah, you’re really qualified for this job that you’ve gotten, but you probably got there not just based on your qualifications but also based on, you know, your relationships and based on the network that you have and your ability to say and do the right things and to look a certain way, right? So if I can help people understand, and particularly white folks, right, that hey, if you really want to be a leader, being a leader means standing up for those who don’t have a voice. Being a leader means being courageous. Being a leader means moving beyond where you’re comfortable into where you really need to go. That’s what leadership is, and, you know, through the work that I’m doing, whether it’s, you know, consulting or coaching or classroom training, yeah, I do--some people might say that I soft-pedal it in a way that makes it more palatable, but I think that in a lot of cases unless you can get your foot in the door you can’t even have a conversation. And so, you know, I talk about privilege in terms of, like--in kind of silly terms to start, but it opens people’s minds to the conversation you can have about privilege, you know, if you can just start laying those--you know, putting those seeds in the ground, and then you can build the conversation from there. I think the great tragedy, and I think where privilege is, you know, just at the most basic level, is that, you know, I grew up white. I grew up talking a little bit about race, but it wasn’t an everyday conversation in my household growing up, right, because it wasn’t that my family needed to worry about, and I think that’s the experience of a lot of white folks is that, you know, we--you know, they tell us, “You just treat everybody the same and you’ll be all right,” and that’s not enough, and I think it wasn’t until just the last couple of years where I realized that treating everybody the same and treating everyone respectfully isn’t enough. Like, we have to take steps to undo some of the damage, and we--you know, I don’t think any one of us can do it all, but, you know, if we can all do it in our own way in a way that’s authentic, in a way that gives us life, and not in a way that--and that’s different for everybody, right? There are ways for me to do this that are energizing and there are ways for me to do this that leave me in a crumpled heap on the floor, and so I’ve had to find my own way to have this conversation that I feel is energizing and that I feel is productive and that I feel like is authentic for me, and that won’t be the same for everyone. So I’m not sure I’ve answered the question, but I think because I’m white I can talk about racism without being labeled as angry, you know? But on the flip of that, because I’m a woman, if I talk about sexism or I talk about, you know, gender disparities, or if I call out someone’s micro-aggressions, you know, where they’ve referred to me as a girl, or--you know, people--one of my favorites is when I’m traveling people are like, “Well, who watches your kids?” I’m like, “You have never asked a man that question. Ever.” [laughs] “You have never asked a man who watches his kids when he’s traveling for work.” Like, nobody does that, right? Zach: Right. Amy: But if I call that out as a woman, and not just a white woman but as a woman, I’m too sensitive, right? So I need--in the same way that I need to stand up and say, you know, “Whoa, hold on.” You know, “Don’t insult a person of color by telling them they’re articulate.” You know? Like, why wouldn’t they be art--like, that’s not a compliment, right? That’s a slap in the face. I need to stand up for that because I’m not angry, I’m just pointing out, you know, somebody’s ignorance, right? Whereas if you did that--you could have the exact same conversation, use the same words, the same tone of voice, but then you’re gonna be labeled as angry, right? “Why are you so angry?” And I think in the same way, you know, women need men, not just white men but men of color, and women of color need this as well, for men to say, “Hold up.” You know? “She’s not being sensitive. You’re being a jerk.”  Zach: [laughs] Amy: [laughs] And kind of tease that out, and that’s kind of the point of the book about--you know, the whole part about allyship is if you want somebody to stand up for you, you have to be willing to stand up for somebody else first, and that’s what I’m trying to do. Zach: That’s powerful. No, this is amazing, and I’ve really appreciated our conversation. So before we wrap up I want to know, do you have any shout outs? Anybody that you want to recognize and thank? Amy: Oh. Well, first of all I want to shout out to Jennifer Brown. Jennifer Brown is a consultant, a TEDx speaker--or maybe a TED speaker--she’s amazing, and she wrote the foreword to my book. She is one of the most internationally-recognized diversity and inclusion experts in the country, and I want to thank her. She was the first person to encourage me in this work. I just want to thank her for that. She’s been amazing. And I want to shout out to you guys. You guys are doing something--the Living Corporate podcast is doing something that I think is wonderful, where you’re giving a voice and you’re giving kind of the inside scoop to folks who maybe feel like they’re on the outside, and you’re creating a sense of community that is beyond corporate borders, beyond--you know, you’re knocking down walls and reaching out and holding hands, and I think that’s amazing, and I’ve been so impressed with the quality and the insights that you guys provide on this podcast. I think it’s amazing, so I want to shout out to all of you. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much, and let’s make sure that we link your book, Network Beyond Bias: Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage, in our show notes, and we’ll put it on our Favorite Things so that-- Amy: Oh, thank you. Zach: No problem, ‘cause I really enjoyed it, and I think everyone who’s listening to this should read it. I don’t care where you’re at in the diversity and inclusion discussion or--if you’re listening to this, you should read it. It is a great read. Amy C. Waninger. Thank you so much for your time today. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back. Amy: Well, thank you, Zach. I’d love to come back. Zach: Awesome. Peace. Ade: And we’re back. Wow, that was an amazing interview. So real talk, right next to our Preston Mitchum B-Side, that was top 5. Top 5, top 5, top 5. I know Drake’s cancelled, but whatever. [laughs] Zach: That was a really real talk, yeah. I mean, honestly, it was refreshing to have someone who doesn’t look like you empathize with your experiences and be so honest about the reality of the world that we live in, right? Ade: Seriously. I truly appreciated her comments around, you know, gender diversity and LGBTQ diversity. I think that intersectionality is just such a big thing, and it’s very easy to get lost in the sauce, but also we just have to keep in mind the multi-faceted nature of being and also the fact that under-represented and marginalized identities in general experience very, very different things in the spaces we occupy. Zach: Absolutely. And I think ultimately, when I think through my interview with Amy, the biggest step revolves around courage and just speaking up. It’s not like she had some secret formula. She was just speaking truth to power. I mean, we had a section even on there where she said, “Look, there’s a point as a white woman where I have certain privileges where I can speak to race and I can speak to ethnic and diversity, and at the same time, Zach, even though you’re a person of color, as a man you have the opportunity to speak to items around sexism,” right? And patriarchy and things of that nature. So there’s opportunity for us to speak up.  Ade: Right, and I think the abiding truth of Living Corporate as a whole is we’re challenging our listeners and ourselves--we’re holding ourselves responsible as well--to live authentically but also with courage, you know? And what the conversation with Amy reminded me of was the fact that--and she sort of alluded to this--we have more power than we believe we do. In a lot of ways we empower each other, we empower ourselves, when we speak up for others, when we utilize our privilege in ways we never have before. When you group with people who look like you and ERGs, affinity groups, happy hours, whatever, all of these things exist because they are necessary and there is a space for them, but even beyond those resources and beyond those spaces, figuring out ways to, you know, plant your roots and insist that you will not be moved, in a lot of ways figuring out how to collaborate with others, support each other, challenge other people, and bringing your whole self--in a professional fashion--to work. Supporting others honestly and truly is really your call to action, I suppose.  Zach: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s go ahead and get into our Favorite Things.  Ade: Oh, that’s like my favorite. My favorite, my favorite, my favorite. My favorite section. All right, so I hate to sound like the book nerd but I can’t help myself. I’m on, like, my 80th read-through of a book called Sister Outsider by this amazing writer by the name of Audrey Lord. If I ever, ever, ever am blessed to parent a kid, I’d probably name one or several of them Audrey, and yes, I am absolutely willing to have an Audrey 1 and an Audrey 2 in my household just for the sake of having a child named after Audrey Lord. Anyway, that said, if you’ve never read Sister Outsider, Audrey Lord basically has this collection of essays in this book, and if you’re at all interested in black feminist literature she’s a really great place to start. My other favorite thing at this point? I’m really living for thunderstorms. I think I’ve mentioned a couple of times--again, like, I’m a very predictable person so, like, books and water, those are, like, my things. So I’m really into thunderstorms right now. I sleep to the sound of thunderstorms, and this is a complete aside, but there’s this app on my phone and it’s the only thing that gets me to sleep. It’s called Tide, and there is a thunderstorm sound setting on there, and it puts me right to sleep, and it’s the greatest thing ever. So I’m here for actual thunderstorms. I’m here for thunderstorm sounds. I’m here for thunderstorm playlists. So if anybody out there actually has a link for a thunderstorm playlist, hook me up. I’m here for it. That’s all I got. What about you, Zach? Zach: Wow. So first thing is--[laughs]--definitely I love Audrey Lord as well. You know, great work. Beautiful work. The point around thunderstorms is interesting. Technology is crazy. So you’re telling me there’s an app now that actually simulates thunderstorms? Ade: An app. It simulates thunderstorms. It simulates ocean sounds. You can do, like, a focus period. It does naps. It’s frickin’ amazing. Sponsor us, Tide. Zach: Sponsor us, Tide, and we’ll [inaudible]-- Ade: I’m here for you guys. Zach: Ah, yeah. That’s something I’m--I’m trying to get into this. That’s great. [laughs] Ade: [laughs] No, but seriously. Zach: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Okay, so Tide is the name of the app? Okay, I’m gonna check that out. Ade: It does forest sounds. There are forest sounds, my guy. Zach: Forest sounds? Okay. Well, cool. Look, my favorite thing right now has to be Amy C. Waninger’s book Network Beyond Bias, right? So I shouted it out during the actual interview with Amy, and I told her that I was gonna shout it out during Favorite Things because I really enjoyed it. I read it. Very thoughtful, very frank, very approachable. Definitely a recommended read for anyone interested in learning about diversity and inclusion, leadership development, unconscious bias, effective representation, and a slew of other things. It’s very, very thorough. It covers so many different topics in very--just, again, approachable and transparent ways. Ade: Oh. Well, okay. Great. As a reminder, to see all of our Favorite Things, very, very simple. You just want to go to our website, www.living-corporate.com, and click “FAVES” right across the top. Zach: Yes, and as another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, you-- Ade: [imitating air horns] Zach: Okay… Okay, so Sound Man, go ahead and add those horns. [Sound Man complies] Zach: [laughs] As another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, Sound Man--so I know you just hit Ade with the horns, but go ahead and hit me with some of that royalty-free jazz music. I mean, I don’t know, you can probably find some tracks from, like, 1970 or something. Just give me something smooth.  [Sound Man complies again] Zach: Okay. You playing it? Okay, here we go. So listen, I know you want exclusive content, right? But you can’t get it for free. But guess what? We got it. You want giveaways? We got that. You want extended interviews? We got that. You want exclusive writing written by guests? We got that, and guess what? It only costs a dollar to get in, baby. Just a dollar. Ade: [laughs] Zach: One dollar. So do me a favor, do you a favor, do us a favor, and become a patron. Become a patron today. I got the links in the show notes right there. Open up your phone and press details. You’re gonna see the links all right there. All right, that’s it. I’m done. Sound Man, cut it off. [Sound Man dutifully complies] Ade: I wasn’t ready… So we just got to go home. Okay, guys. That was our show. Thank you for joining us at the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate. We’re also on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don’t forget to check us out on Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We’re all over Al Gore’s internet. And that does it for us on this show. My name is Ade. Zach: And this has been Zach. Ade: A pleasure as always. Ade and Zach: Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Ade and Ola sit down and discuss LGBTQ identity in the workplace with Janet Pope, North America Corporate Responsibility Director for Capgemini. Length: 50:28Host: Ade | Ola#Pride #LGBTQ #MenareChoppedLiverTRANSCRIPTAde: Today, 85% of Fortune 500 companies have protective policies that address sexual orientation, up from 51% in 2000. Nonetheless, surveys show that many LGBT employees still view their sexual orientation as a hindrance on the job. A full 48% of LGBT respondents report remaining closeted at work. Further, LGBT workers who feel forced to lie about their identity and relationships typically don't engage in [inaudible] banter about such things such as weekend activities, banter that forges important workplace bonds. Some 42% of closeted employees said they felt isolated at work versus only 24% of openly LGBT employees. These factors may explain why 52% of all closeted employees, which is 36% of out employees, believe they're [inaudible]. This is an excerpt from four LGBT workers being out brings advantages, a 2011 article by Sylvia Ann Hewlett and Karen Sumberg in the Harvard Business Review. I believe it presents a strong case for living authentically as an LGBTQ person in corporate America, but how do you build courage to live authentically in unknown environments? How do you leverage existing protective policies? And how do you thrive on the ways in which you differ? This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Okay. So today we're talking about existing on the LGBTQ spectrum at work.Ola: Right. And to get the discussion started, let me ask: how do you identify?Ade: Thanks for asking. So I identify as a queer woman. Queer is such a broad spectrum, but primarily what that means is my dating preferences are, like, pretty fluid, and I generally don't like to explain that to people, and that's specifically why I chose queer to, like, describe myself, as my label, because there's, like, this understanding that queer is a personal thing that you explain, and it gets kind of awkward when you're maybe at Pride and you see older queer people, and they ask you about yourself and you say "queer," and, like, their faces are like, "The children say that now?" But besides that, yeah, that's typically what I go with. How about you?Ola: So it kind of depends on who's asking.Ade: Yeah.Ola: In certain ways that I present myself I just say, "I'm a queer black fem." For me, blackness is a really important part of it. I also say queer so people kind of stop asking questions.Ade: Right.Ola: I always think of, like, Hagrid in Harry Potter. "No more questions. Don't ask anymore questions."Ade: [laughs]Ola: And then there's also--if I'm feeling generous and open maybe I'll call myself pansexual.Ade: Sure.Ola: Or sometimes if I don't feel like answering what pansexual means I'll say bisexual.Ade: You like pots and pans. You're super duper attached to griddles.Ola: Right? Exactly. I really love--I really love cooking. Not a lie. [laughs] So that's basically how I identify.Ade: Sure.Ola: So what would you say has been the impact of your identity on your work life? Like, what kinds of things does it make you do, perhaps differently from people outside of the community?Ade: Sure. So I curate my experiences a lot. If you walk into my current workspace, you'll notice that, like, my walls are relatively bare. I have, like, calendars up. I have reminders up. I have a picture of, like, a kid that I sponsor in Uganda up, but there are no real pictures of my partners, like, my family or anything like that, and that's pretty intentional. I used to have a picture of my ex-girlfriend up in my workspace, and it got problematic because a coworker who I knew--who had made pretty homophobic remarks at one point at one point walked into my workspace and, like, made really aggressive eye contact with those pictures, and it made me really uncomfortable.Ola: Ugh. That's rough.Ade: Yeah, and at different points and different situations I've had, like, a coworker ask me out. Ola: Hm.Ade: One I don't date coworkers...Ola: Hm.Ade: Two... no. [laughs] Ola: [laughs]Ade: Like, I'm not attracted to you, right? Oh, man. Like, what is going on here? Like, a cishet man at that, and so this whole conversation, and then kind of what we were saying earlier about, like, sharing your day or sharing your week or sharing your weekend plans. Where my coworkers can be like, "Oh, me and my husband are doing this," or "My wife and I are gonna go on a trip," or "I had a really great time this weekend with my wife and kids," I usually hesitate. Like, I'm very, very careful. I usually just state "My partner and I," and I just got comfortable with that.Ola: Right.Ade: In general I'm not, like, a big sharer, particularly at work. You can ask anybody who knows me. Like, in general I keep most of my details of my personal life to myself, but especially at work I'm not about to tell you that I took this girl on a date because I'm just not trying to hear from HR about how I'm making people uncomfortable with, like, my rabid gayness. Ola: Right, right.Ade: So yeah, that's just, like, a couple of benign examples. There are other ways in which I feel that my queerness has added to hostility I've gotten at different places and different times, and of course there's also that intersection of my other identities of being a black fem that have added to how I feel I'm perceived.Ola: Right.Ade: So it does, in a lot of different ways, effect the way that I communicate, not just with myself--and, again, I'm a consultant, so I have different interactions with people on my team and people who are not on my team where I'm just a contractor supporting, so there's that.Ola: Right, right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.Ade: Is there anything you struggle with with being LGTBQ in the workplace?Ola: Well, I think it's not usually around being out. I think I was mentioning before I'm pretty single, so I don't necessarily have to tell anyone that I'm doing anything with a significant other. The person, the other, does not exist.Ade: [laughs] Right.Ola: What I normally kind of struggle with is that we have our employee resource groups, but for me those spaces have always been very, very white in ways that feel a little bit--not hostile, but the same way I feel about the Midwest. Like, well-meaning but awkward. Ade: [laughs]Ola: Like, if I walk into an LGBTQ space with, like, my fro out, and they're just like, "Yes, girl!" I'm like, "You're white." [laughs] I'm like, "Stop."Ade: [laughs] Oh, my God. Like, you didn't have to put on your black girl voice for that. Ola: Right, right. Ade: Like, we can celebrate me being awesome.Ola: Right? Like, you should at least have a little bit more shame than that.Ade: Right.Ola: So that's really where I struggle is, like, not really wanting to take advantage of some of the resources available just because it's usually a pretty white space, as corporate America tends to be.Ade: Right. I definitely understand that, I hear it, but wouldn’t it be great if we could talk to someone with years and years of experience navigating their queer identity in the workplace and someone who has taken on the role of maybe being, like, a corporate champion for intersectional diverse spaces, particularly in multinational companies?Ola: You mean like our guest Janet Pope, North American Corporate Responsibility Director at Capgemini? Both: What?Ade: DJ, go ahead and, like, drop the air horns right here. *imitates air horns*[Sound Man drops ‘em in]Both: [laughs]Ade: Next up, we’re gonna get into our interview with our guest Janet Pope. Hope y’all enjoy. And we’re back with Janet Pope. Janet, welcome to the pod.Janet: Hi.Ade: How are you doing?Janet: Doing great today.Ade: On the call today also we have Ola. Ola, say your shout out to the people.Ola: Hey, y’all. [laughs]Ade: How you doin’?Ola: Happy to be here.Ade: Yeah. [laughs]Ola: [laughs]Ade: So Janet, tell us a little bit about yourself.Janet: Sure. So I am a native or am originally from South Carolina. I identify as a black gay woman who happens to be at 36 years of wonderful life, I guess. I have a little bit of an interesting career story, only because, as you mentioned, I’m the North American Corporate Social Responsibility Director for Capgemini, but the way that I got there is a little interesting based on the fact that my background, from an education perspective anyway, is computer engineering. So I’m a techie at heart. I was hired to Capgemini as a techie. In my 13 years there, I probably worked for seven years as a technology transformation specialist, and then around that seven-year mark I really felt like I wasn’t doing enough to help people, if I’m honest. So I talked to a couple of people who I really respected as mentors and, you know, business leaders that I was working with at the time, and I just started asking questions. “Now, how can I do more to help people?” I got different answers. “Oh, well, we’re helping clients. There’s a lot of things that we do to help clients,” and it was sort of “Yeah, yeah, I get that, but I just feel like I need to do more to help people,” and long story short, about the same time an HR leader at that time was looking to have a full-time dedicated diversity and inclusion leader, and I applied with a number of other people and, you know, for whatever reason the stars aligned and I was chosen to be the diversity and inclusion leader for North America, which then, over time, over about five years--I guess three years was the first time I looked after not only diversity but environmental sustainability and community engagement as well. So the role grew as the need grew for the North American market, but I’ve always made sure to share that piece of my journey just because I think it’s pretty odd for someone who started in computer engineering to be a corporate social responsibility director, or I thought it was odd, but the more I meet D&I leaders that really love what they do and can connect on the business and the more I meet corporate social responsibility practitioners that are really tied and tapped into how to drive it from a business perspective--many of them do not have traditional routes to those roles so they, you know, did something else in the business or in the field first. So I found that pretty interesting for the space.Ade: Cool.Janet: Other personal things that I’d say are I live in Houston now. No rhyme or reason. I wish I could say, like, “I chose Houston.” Houston sort of chose me. I was a traveling consultant for many years, and just my last major client was in Houston, and I liked the city and stayed. I also, in my not-so-abundant free time, try to DJ. So I actually have--Ola: Interesting.Janet: Yeah. Turntables in my home, and a couple buddies, we have sort of DJ happy hours where we have fun sort of mixing different music. So that’s a little bit about me. I went to Clemson, went to Duke for my Master’s. I’m from a family of eight. So there were six siblings, and five of us grew up in the same house, and that was really fun. So lots of good stories about all of that too. And then, relevant to this conversation--and I’ll probably make sure to weave him into my story at some point--my youngest brother is F2M, and I helped with a little piece of his transition journey as well, or I’d like to think that I was a positive influence as a part of that. But that’s a little bit about me.Ola: So you said you identify as a black gay woman, but when did you come out? Was it before joining the workforce or after? How did that impact kind of your entry into the corporate world?Janet: Yeah. Again, I think one of the themes we’ll probably hear throughout the podcast and my story is it’s not traditional at all I think, in terms of the coming out stories that I hear from a number of my friends, mostly because I think a lot of people, at least that I talk to, you know, they knew when they were eight or three or 13. All of these are pretty young ages. Maybe not that they were gay or lesbian or queer, but they knew that something was different in terms of their journey or their sexuality or they felt in their bodies and that sort of thing. I think I knew that I was a tomboy. I think that was really clear. I think I drove my mom crazy because I never really wanted to wear dresses to church and--you know, but nothing that would flag anything different than any heterosexual tomboy, right, that’s grown up, has peers and, you know, married men? I think, for my journey, where I sort of realized that, you know, I was attracted to women and that that was really a big part of my identity, I was 26 and met, or reconnected, with someone and just realized that my feelings weren’t the same way that I felt about friends, and recognizing, you know, what that was and what it meant, and I struggled with it if I’m honest, probably because of my own faith. I struggled a bit with, you know, what does all this mean, and is it contradictory to my faith or can they coexist? I’ve sorted that out now in the last decade, but, you know, 26 was where I sort of realized that--I don’t know. The best way that I can put it is I think maybe I normalized my experience before and felt like I was supposed to have boyfriends and I was supposed to date guys. There was nothing wrong with it. I never--you know, I don’t have horror stories like others where they just, you know, knew things were wrong or felt really, really awkward about having a boyfriend, I don’t remember anything like that. Mine is more I had eaten chopped liver all my life, and then I had a filet mignon and I was like, “Why did I ever settle for chopped liver?”Ola: Okay. [laughs] Yes.Ade: [laughs]All: [inaudible]Janet: Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of what it was.Ola: #MenAreChoppedLiver. Sorry. [laughs]Ade: [laughs]Janet: And the only reason I struggle with that analogy is because I think some people hear that and they think, “Oh, well, you chose to be gay,” and it’s like, “No, no. I didn’t choose to be gay.” To me it’s no different than, you know, being more attracted to someone that they’ve really recognized has a core value of honesty versus something else. So it was more about, you know, what are you attracted to? And I think most people will tell you they don’t know why they’re attracted to a certain trait over another trait, but they absolutely don’t have the right chemistry without those traits, right? So I think for me it was just recognizing, you know, that, that I could try to force something different, but it wasn’t where I was my happiest or most fulfilled in terms of the types of relationships that I was having with women. Ade: Great.Janet: And so coming out--’cause that’s where you’re going, right? I haven’t dealt with that yet.Ola: Mm-hmm.Ade: [laughs]Janet: I hope I don’t turn into, like, Grandpa Storytime here, but for me it was at 28. So 26 I sort of recognized, “Okay, this is something I need to deal with and sort of settle.” At 28 I felt like I’d settled it, and I decided--I needed to tell my parents that, which, again, kind of different from most people’s 13, 15, 18 coming out stories. I was 28 years old. So, needless to say, they were surprised because I’d never talked about feeling, you know, those types of feelings for a woman. I don’t think I had ever done anything to make them think that I was gay, so--I told my siblings first actually, and they--some took it easier than others. Like, I remember really vividly one of my brothers saying to me, “Oh, my God. I’m so happy,” and he gave me a hug, mostly because I think he was just happy that I wasn’t alone, meaning I wasn’t talking about whom I was dating, and so he’s like, “I’m just glad you’re not alone and you’re in a relationship. I don’t care who it’s with. I just worried about, you know, being by yourself.” I was like, “Okay, that’s great.”Ola: Aw.Ade: That’s cute.Ola: Yeah.Janet: And then, you know, different ranges of reaction. I had a sister that was very surprised, again--because I’m the second to the oldest, and so again she just--she looked up to me. We shared clothes. She never heard me talk about anything other than boyfriends so it sort of shocked her, and then a brother who sort of started quoting Bible verses at me. As I mentioned, you know, we grew up religious. Not overly religious or--you know, I know some people tell stories about being preacher’s children and that kind of thing. It wasn’t anything like that. I think it was pretty normal, but we went to church, you know, every week, every other week. Whenever there was church we went, and so, you know, he sort of dealt with it like that, and I took that as it was, and all of that’s evolved over time. They’ve all settled it now, but that gave me I guess just the ground for telling my parents, and so I came out to my parents at 28 years old, and really just--I think I said, you know, “I fell in love with a woman,” [laughs] “and I want to make sure that I tell you because I’m tired of hiding it.” And honestly, had it not been this particular woman and my feelings for her I probably would’ve just continued to hide it for a while longer honestly. I just--I was tired of not being able to talk about her. I cared about her so much that I, you know, wanted to share that with people.Ade: So 28 sounds well into your career. So what did that transition look like? When you came out to your family, did that also kind of pour into your professional life? How did that transition happen? [inaudible]Janet: Yeah, it definitely did. It was actually easier to come out at work than it was with my family, I feel. Now don’t get me wrong, I can look back and say that now. I think in the process of it there was some fear around “Will people treat me differently?” But I think I recognized that a lot of the fears that I had were more of things that I had generated than actually played out over time. So I’ll give you an example. So I actually had a lesbian manager. She identifies as lesbian, and she is married now but had a domestic partner at the time, was open about that, and there were a couple different people on the team on a project in Boston, and I very candidly remember her saying to me, “I think you’re a great performer. I think you do a really good job, but I’m not so sure that you want to be here,” and it caught me off guard because I knew that I was doing my work, but when I started to unpack that with a mentor that I trusted, what she was saying was “I don’t know if I can trust you because I don’t know much about you,” and as I reflected on it I realized, you know--my peers, we’d return from, I don’t know, Memorial Day vacation, something like that, and people would talk about what they did with their spouses or their partners or, you know, just share things about their life, but because I was in the closet I didn’t share anything like that. I’d sort of say, “Oh, I had fun,” and keep it very short, right? And so what I didn’t recognize at that time because I thought I was being professional and, you know, leaving my personal life out of the conversation and that was unnecessary. You know, all these good things that we probably think we’re doing all the time, I was actually impacting the way that I was viewed and perceived in terms of people’s ability to trust me because I wasn’t sharing in a way that they were sharing, which I didn’t recognize factored into whether they trusted me or not. And so it actually--because I had started to unpack that, I recognized that coming out was gonna help me relationally at work, just because it would enable me to have a more authentic experience in sharing with others, and that would help me grow trust in a way that I hadn’t been able to do before.Ade: No, that’s a really great point because there’s actually--I think Harvard Business Review actually put out an article to that point saying that often times minorities in the workplace will--due to the fact that, you know, often times you just can’t relate to what is popular culture, we’ll refrain from sharing too much for fear of “I don’t want to bring my whole self to work just in case my whole self isn’t palatable,” and it ends up hurting rather than helping because people just feel like they don’t know you. To the point that you made, often times you’re just not trusted by your coworkers and such because they don’t see the full picture of you.Ola: Right, and they don’t know why you’re not sharing. [laughs] It always comes off as more sinister.Ade: Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, everyone’s talking about their partner and you’re kind of like, “Hm, yeah, that’s nice. Minding my business.” And then they’re like, “Oh, this is shady.”Janet: Right, exactly. And I think what woke me up and why I coach people around this experience for me all the time now is I didn’t recognize that not sharing something personal could impact the way they felt about my ability to do my job.Ola: Well, so on the flip side of that, and I know this is probably more prevalent in consulting, I’ve definitely felt like in, like, spaces specific to the firm it’s probably better to be out than not, but then it’s always a toss up in terms of a client. So is there any situation you’ve been in where you felt like you couldn’t be or that it would be a hindrance on your professional presence?Janet: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I haven’t experienced that, but I’ve definitely, based on my role and since I’ve been in my role, worked with employees who have certainly experienced that, where they are happy and, you know, feel safe to be out at Capgemini but are with a really conservative bank or, you know, a really conservative oil and gas client, or whatever the industry is where they’re not so sure that the executives or the client partners that they’re working with on the client side will be as accepting, and we’ve definitely had to help people navigate that. I mean, the best advice I give and something that we’re trying to do at Capgemini right now is just understand where our clients have employee resource groups, because if that oil and gas company or if that bank have an LGBT group then, while you certainly can’t ever determine, based on a company’s initiatives, how one individual is gonna, you know, interact with you differently or perceive you differently or talk to you differently based on finding that out. If their companies have, you know, articulated values around diversity and inclusion and investment around specific identities, then certainly they’ll need to deal with that in a different way probably than a company that hasn’t done anything like that, if that makes sense. So we’ve tried to help people close the gap by, you know, not only doing the work on the client based on the contract, but how are they building relationships across these employee resource groups networks, business affinity groups, whatever the companies are calling them? Because we do recognize that that is a way to build relationship, right? And relationship, back to that earlier theme, is important in terms of building trust and people’s perceptions of, you know, your ability to do the work and to grow accounts and bigger deals, if I’m really honest.Both: Right.Ade: So what have you struggled with the most in corporate America? And we can talk about over time where you were at 28 versus where you are now at 36. So what have you struggled most with in corporate spaces in the past, and what do you struggle with now as you’ve grown in your career and in your roles?Janet: Yeah, that’s a tough--a tough one. I think what I struggled with at 28 was a little bit of “Why does this matter?” Right? So, you know, yeah, there’s some freedom to not feeling like I need to hide a big part of my life anymore, and there’s definitely energy that went into that that now I have back and I can use for other things that are more productive from a work or personal perspective, but I think I didn’t--I didn’t really get, you know, how authenticity could really make me more productive in the way that I understand it now, and I think I was naive in terms of how--I don’t want to say political because people always look at organizational politics as, like, a bad thing. I don’t necessarily mean that. I think politics is just for a reason, and that’s probably a podcast for another day, but I think that, you know, when you’re young you don’t really understand how important relationships are and how much relationships impact opportunities for honestly promotion, opportunities for the stretch roles, opportunities for the assignments that are gonna get you visibility at the levels that you need in order to really have growth and longevity in organizations. I think, again, when I was younger it was “If I keep my head down and do a really good job, people will see what I’m capable of and my experience and my knowledge will speak for itself,” and I didn’t necessarily think through the relational component of that. Now don’t get me wrong. Some people take this too far. They go way left with it, and they’re not good at their jobs, and they think they can, you know, grow everything or lay everything on the foundation of really solid relationships, and they probably get so far with that, and they just annoy everybody else that’s really trying to do a good job and works really hard. I’m saying there’s a middle ground to that. There’s a way that you balance really recognizing when and where to pick your battles, what relationships you should invest in, and how to balance that with doing a really good job. And so I just--for whatever reason, I was naive about that when I was 28, and I was naive about, you know, recognizing what--how much my personal character and, you know, the fact that integrity is really important to me as a core value and other things in my personal life--I really downplayed how big an impact being authentic would have in professional life, and so now I recognize that there’s not two separate things. There’s no Professional Janet and Personal Janet. There’s one Janet and, you know, while I’m not telling anybody that they shouldn’t have boundaries, because you absolutely should have boundaries, they’re important, and there are certain things I don’t want to hear about at work.Ola: For real. For real. [laughs]Janet: But what I’m saying is that we can’t treat our lives like there’s, you know, a mask that we wear at work or, you know, that we wear anywhere, in any environment, and then there’s a different mask that we wear at home. There’s just--the energy that it takes to maintain something like that isn’t worth it, and it’s really not how our brains are wired to work. And so just recognizing that and understanding how to make sure I’m showing up in all those different hats, right? Like, sometimes--this is one of my favorite things to say--sometimes I’m showing up as a black gay woman. Sometimes I’m showing up as a woman who’s gay and black. Sometimes I’m showing up as a gay black woman, right? And so if you understand where the priority is on any given day, which can be based on, you know, what’s going on in the news with Starbucks or, you know, what’s happening in the world around the #MeToo movement, or what happened at work yesterday around any given thing, right? And so, based on the reality of my world at any moment, the priority might be on any one of--and those are three identities, but there are many more, right? I have faith. You know, I’m a millennial by some timelines. Ola: Yeah. [laughs]Janet: So all of that shows up in different ways depending on the need and, I think, just recognizing that the context of how we’re authentic is really important.Ola: Yeah, and I think that leads perfectly into our next question, which is when you deal with intersections, like, how have some of those impacted your work life? Whether it’s within, like, one ERG or another, and how those--like, if you’ve had to teach people about these intersections or how you’ve navigated that through your experience.Janet: Yeah. I think the way that it showed up for me first was within the women’s forums or the women’s initiatives and women’s groups because, just based on the numbers, right, the demographics, if you’re not careful the women’s conversation turns into the white women’s conversation, if we’re really honest, right? And so how to make sure that women of color really felt like they had a voice in the discussion and that LGBT women felt like they had a voice in the conversation, or queer women, and so just how to balance that when, you know, if you’re not careful the majority of the minority group can have the loudest voice. I just felt it was really important to make sure--and sometimes it was just as simple as awareness, like “How do we just rise that concern to the surface to enable us to either put in the right checkpoints or make sure that any committee or leadership team has the right intersections of diversity?” Or simple things to help people mitigate their bias around different topics, and so those were some simple ways. Of course none of that is a silver bullet to solve--you know, every time we’re talking about women we’re including women of color, but it certainly was the right direction to make sure we’re thinking that, and one of the ways we do that at Capgemini formally is all of the employee resource groups have to have certain events that are in collaboration with other employee resource groups. So they can’t just do things siloed in a box, and I think that’s really helped drive just making sure they’re collaborating, and we’ve seen a lot of great things come out of that. We’ve seen, you know, a focus of black veterans in Black History Month as an example, or we’ve seen highlights and spotlights of queer and lesbian women as part of Women’s History Month. Just simple examples, right? And so having that--I don’t want to say forced collaboration, but just having an expectation with the employee resource group leaders that you will collaborate with the other employee resource groups really raised their awareness of “Okay, we need to be thinking about intersections,” and honestly there’s some benefit for them, even from a practical matter of budget, right? If I’m partnering with three other employee resource groups--and we have 12 at Capgemini by the way, which makes my job really fun--but if I’m partnering with other groups, you know, there’s more budget for this particular initiative or program, and they like that part if nothing else. But that’s one of the ways to manage that. I think the other way is just to make sure people are talking about themselves holistically, right? So how do I make sure that, you know, when I’m in a conversation I’m being authentic about the things that matter to me and challenging people? I remember being challenged by someone in HR who happens to be Asian and black that they didn’t feel comfortable with our African-American and black employee resource group reaching out to them for specific questions or surveys or that sort of thing because they’re more than just black, which, you know, I don’t--I don’t want to say whether I agree or disagree, but people are multiple things, and we don’t ever want to feel like we’re putting people in a box. So I liked being challenged on that because it made me think about it. “Okay. Well, if you’re raising this as a mixed race individual, then there could certainly be other mixed race individuals who are offended,” and, you know, we need to think about how to make sure we’re including people and not turning them off from any language or communications. You know, that was a well-meaning thing. They were like, “Oh, yeah. We’ll just reach out to everybody who’s self-identified as black and we’ll ask them their opinion something,” and a couple of people raised their hands to say, “Yeah, that’s great. I can do it, but I’m not just black. That’s not the only thing I am,” which is--you know, it starts the dialogue that we need to have in organizations, and again I think recognizing--’cause some people say, “Why? Why does it matter? Why do we care? Why do we have to talk about our identities at work?” I think, you know, it just goes back to how we started this conversation. If we can’t do that and if we’re not thinking about the way that we’re all sort of showing up in the workplace, we’re not gonna get the best ideas. We’re not gonna get the right level of engagement, right? If I feel like you’re only engaging the part of me that is a woman or you’re only engaging the part of me that is millennial, or you’re--let’s take it a step further. You’re only engaging the part of me that’s technology-minded? Then I’m not going to be as productive. We’re not gonna come up with the best solution for our clients or our own organization.Ola: So this question is about when you are definitely are in a toxic work environment. Maybe you’ve exhausted your tools to try to resolve it. How do you kind of make a decision on when it’s best for you to leave? And how do you best go about that in a way that, like, minimizes that impact on your career?Janet: I think I would say, you know--and this is whether you’re in a toxic work environment around a particular aspect of identity or a toxic work environment based on anything, I’d say the same advice--I think Steve Jobs said best something to the notion of “If you’re waking up day in and day out and you don’t love what you do more than you hate what you do, you should probably find something else to do.” Right? Or somewhere else to do it. That’s the gist of it anyway.Ola: Mm-hmm.Janet: And so, you know, I truly believe that if you’ve done all you can to navigate making sure you’re on a project that’s conducive to, you know, your skills and your ability to succeed and you still aren’t finding that or you just really feel like this environment isn’t one where you can be authentic and you have gotten some mentorship and counsel that what you’re asking for isn’t unreasonable, because I don’t want to pretend like some of us aren’t walking around entitled and think that, you know, “I can bring my Kanye West album to my cubicle and blast it as loud as I want to, and anybody that’s gonna stop me? Forget about ‘em. I’ll leave if I can’t do this.” [laughs] Right?Ola: Right. [laughs]Janet: So I want to just assume we’re all reasonable professionals and want to be in a work environment where everybody can be successful and we realize that we’re part of that equation, but with that said, you know, I do agree that if you do not see clear career growth for yourself or career opportunities or feel like you’re not getting them, and you’ve tried, you’ve seeked, you know, different types of mentors at different levels with different backgrounds and experiences and none of them are able to, you know, help you meet new people or get new opportunities or give you advice on how to do that for yourself, then it might be time to find, you know, a different--at least a different role or a different organization.Ade: Okay. Our next segment is called Favorite Things. If you cannot tell, it’s where we talk about what our favorite things are these days. I am Ade speaking. We have our guest, Janet Pope, on the line. Do you want to say a shout out?Janet: Hello.Ade: What’s up? And we also have the ever-dope, ever-delightful Ola with us. You want to say hi, Ola?Ola: Hey, all.Ade: Yes. Okay, Ola, do you want to start us off with what your favorite thing is?Ola: Yes. So my favorite thing is Barracoon: The Story of the Last “Black Cargo”, and for those of you who don’t know or haven’t heard, this is a book by Zora Neale Hurston. It’s a non-fiction work, and it’s based on her interviews in 1931 with Cudjo Lewis, the last living survivor of the Middle Passage, and if you’re not familiar with Zora Neale Hurston’s work, get your life together, okay? The way she writes is so incredible. I’ve mostly read her fiction works over and over and over again, but this is one of the few things that she did that was non-fiction, and it’s amazing. You should go get it. You should read it however you can. Library, Amazon, whatever. Go do it. Ade: How about you, Janet? Janet: So my favorite thing right now is actually I guess the Oprah SuperSoul Conversations podcast. Now, I just want to make sure we’re clear, this comes #2 to the podcast that we’re on right now.Ade: Yes!Janet: And this is just one of my favorite things based on the different topics and different guests that Oprah’s having on everything from Buddhism to Christianity to atheists to mindfulness to spirituality, and there’s something there for everyone as it relates to the mind and the soul, and so the way that the different perspectives are presented in looking at spirituality and the soul in many different ways is really interesting. I mean, one of the things that stood out was an early on session where someone who is Bahai just talked about how that faith for them--they thought about art being like prayer, and so just the different, like I said, perspectives resonate with me, and of course there’s lots of celebrities that are sharing different opinions, but it’s just cool to hear people talk about things that you don’t really typically hear them talk about on your traditional interviews. Ade: You guys were super highbrow and, like, really lit with your favorite things, but mine is, like, super childish and I’m kind of embarrassed to share, but, you know, I’m gonna proceed. I’m gonna power through my embarrassment. So my favorite thing this week actually is bath time, and I hate how childish this sounds, but to be more specific, my favorite thing right now? Bath bombs. I love everything that goes into my bath time process these days. Like, it’s been super, like, relaxing, and it’s been this whole process for me. So everything from candles to my bath salts, my oils, all of it, but most specifically I have, like, this set of bath bombs, and let me tell you, okay?Ola and Janet: [laughs]Ade: I swear to God I spent, like, three hours longer than usual in the bath, than I usually would, just because of how amazing it sounds and just makes me feel. So, like, shout out to whoever came up with the idea of bath bombs, and shout out to all of the people in my life who love me and have kept me well-stocked with bath bombs because y’all are the real ones, the absolute MVPs of all my days because, like--y’all, bath time is essential, okay? Ola: [laughs]Ade: Any shout outs? Any final shout outs before we close out?Janet: Yeah, I’d love to give a shout out to my family. I hope that the Pope family is listening to this podcast and, specifically because I’ve called him out, my youngest brother who goes simply by Pope because he’s [smarter?] than all of us.Ola: Okay. [laughs] Hell yeah.Janet: A major shout out to him.Ade: [inaudible].Janet: Yeah, and then two other quick shout outs. One, there’s a group--we’ve talked about how important community is and how it’s important to just really have people that you can share what you’re going through and experience at work or just different things as it relates to life and mindfulness, and there’s a small community here in Houston that is absolutely that for me, and we sort of call ourselves the Hat Chat group. It came from the fact that we would get together and throw different topics in a hat, questions that we wanted to explore as a group, and then talk--usually over drinks--about our answers to those questions, and so we called it Hat Chat because we were chatting about the topics in a hat. But that group has kept me grounded, and I probably don’t know where I would be in Houston without them. And my last shout out is probably gonna sound cheesy and corny but I think goes with the theme of this podcast is honestly for love because I would not be out had I not fallen in love and not want it to be a secret anymore. So a big shout out to love.Ade: Right. I’m just gonna continue being weird because that’s just been the space I’ve been in for the last couple of days, but my shout out this week is to water.Ola: [laughs] 70% of the body, okay? 70% of the world.Ade: Don’t play me. [laughs] Look. Listen. Listen, girl. It’s so essential.Janet: Water’s [amazing?]. I like it. I’m with it. I’m a water baby. So there’s a bath time in the water? [inaudible].Ade: Yes! Okay, like, November 1st I’m just--I’m really here for--and you know what the hilarious thing is? I don’t actually know how to swim. Y’all don’t hound me. Don’t play me. But, like, my happiest place is being underwater, so, like, I have this, like, dichotomy of, like, being happy or being alive, so I have that frequent struggle. But yeah, so, like, shout out to water. Shout out to drinking it, being under it, floating in it. All--warm water, hot water, cold water--and if you haven’t been drinking water, go ahead and chug a gallon or two. It’s good for you, I promise. But yeah, that’s [inaudible].Janet: What about water signs? I’m a Scorpio. Does that count?Ola and Ade: Same!Ade: Oh, my God. Wait, for real?Janet: Wow.Ola: Yo.Ade: [laughs]Ola: That’s funny. [laughs]Janet: [inaudible].Ola: I know.Ade: [laughs]Ola: [laughs] I love the puns.Ade: Wait, we have to [inaudible].Ola: Oh, it’s staying in.Ade: Yeah. So we’re good, right?Janet: Big ups to Scorpios. Last shout out.Ade: *imitates air horns*[Sound Man drops ‘em in]Ola: Perfect placement. Perfect placement for a DJ horn.Ade: [laughs]Ola: Right. Thank you.Ade: Thank you so much for joining us. Much appreciated.Janet: Happy to do it, and if for whatever reason somebody decides they want to hear my voice again I’m happy to do another one on another topic.Ola: Awesome.Ade: Definitely. Like, we appreciate your time so, so much.Janet: Yeah, no problem. Ola: And that’s our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don’t forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for us on this show. My name is Ola.Ade: And this has been Ade.Both: Peace.Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this b-side, we sent down with lawyer, activist, writer and civic leader Preston Mitchum about living authentically and intentionally.Length: 37:59Host: Zach#Pride #LGBTQ #BlackLivesMatterPreston's Website: prestonmitchum.com/Preston on Twitter: twitter.com/PrestonMitchumPreston on IG: instagram.com/preston.mitchum/?hl=enTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you’re listening to a B-Side now. Yes, we introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone’s first episode. So for the new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that’s right, more lit--than our normal shows. Now, y’all might ask me what do I mean by more lit? Sound Man, give me something.[Sound Man plays Jamaican air horns]Zach: You see that right there? That’s what I’m talking about. Now, listen. Often times more than not we have a special guest, and today is no different. We actually have with us today Preston Mitchum. Preston is the international policy analyst at Advocates for Youth where he advocates for the sexual and reproductive health and rights for young people and U.S. foreign policy. He’s also an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center, teaching LGBT health, law, and policy. Preston currently serves as the first openly gay male chair of the Washington Bar Association Young Lawyers division the Black Youth Project DC Chapter, and he’s written for theGrio, The Atlantic, Huffington Post, Ebony, Africa.com and plenty more. Preston, welcome to the show, man.Preston: Hey, thank you for the invite. I cannot wait for this conversation.Zach: [laughs] That’s awesome, man. Now, look, I gave the intro, but please, tell us about yourself.Preston: You know, so I often describe myself as an unapologetically black queer activist and advocate hailing from Youngstown, Ohio, but currently I’ve been living in the D.C., Maryland area for the past seven years, and I love black people. So that’s everything to know about me.Zach: That’s awesome. Now, look, when I look at your profile, right, and I look at your Instagram, and I just--I look from afar, and it just seems like there’s so much there. Can you talk to me about how you got into law? Like, was it spurred by your passion around social justice? Was it a money move? Was it both? Like, talk to me about that.Preston: You know, I wish it was money. I wish. For everything that I really wanted to do to become a lawyer, I wish money was really involved in that decision ‘cause I would probably be a little bit happier. My bills would be paid a lot faster. I wouldn’t be waiting ‘til the 5th of the month to finally make that rent payment.Zach: [laughs]Preston: But all that being said, for me I’m a social justice activist to my core. Something that really matters to me, again, are black folks, are queer and trans folks, are women of color, specifically black women, and so I think for me, like, when I saw how law was framed, how the legal landscape was framed, the one thing that I really wanted to do of course, even as a lawyer, was to change the law, right, and have this (inaudible) in the background to change the lives of black folks, but what really mattered to me was policy, right? And so that was really getting in front of the law before the law came into place, because when you’re a lawyer and you’re defending people, of course, like, litigation is life-changing for many people, particularly--like, people like criminal defense attorneys, but what really mattered to me the more I thought about it was what can happen before a defendant reaches the courtroom. What policy can be designed and created and lobbied for in a way that actually changes peoples’ lives before it goes into effect, and so for me that was really important when it came to, again, the legal and policy landscape, and frankly I have a passion for marginalized communities, you know, especially rape survivors of which I am one. I’ve talked about my personal experience with rape and sexual assault, mostly on theroot.com. So, you know, my passion began for rape survivors, you know, thinking about rape culture. Later in life obviously thinking about our childhood heroes, you know, become villains. So people like Bill Cosby and R. Kelly and thinking through the ways in which, you know, we have been told that we have to defend these people because they allegedly love us, but we often times saw that love turn into pain for many people, particularly marginalized black women and girls. So, you know, in a nutshell for me what was really important was to defend the civil rights and liberties of black folks and queer folks and of other marginalized communities who are kind of pushed to the margins every single day, and that’s how I got into law.Zach: Wow, man. That’s amazing. And, you know, your profile--and even when you talk about your story, right, the main things I get from you, like, just from a vibe perspective is authenticity and intentionality, right? I believe that, you know, everyone should seek to live as authentically as possible every day, and clearly from just your mission and your passion, your purpose in life, I would say that you agree with that. Can you talk to me though about your journey and living authentically and what rewards and challenges you’ve had from that?Preston: So I appreciate you even saying that because something that I always speak about is the purpose of living as an authentic person and living with intention, right? It’s funny, I was talking to someone the other day, and I told them that I didn’t think I was breathing, and they were like, “Well, you’re living. Of course you’re breathing.” I was like, “Yeah, I actually don’t feel my stomach moving though.”Zach: Hm.Preston: And I think that’s--so I knew I wasn’t breathing intentionally. I was breathing because I have to live, but I wasn’t breathing with a purpose, and so…Zach: It was cruise control.Preston: Yeah, exactly. Right, I was like, “Oh, I’m breathing because I need to eat and I need to drink water and I need to live to see another day,” but you know, but I was learning from folks, especially, like, black folks. Like, older black people. They’re like, “Are you breathing on purpose? Feel your belly. Can you actively and actually feel your belly going in and out, up and down?” And so I kind of wanted to use that to model really how I’m living my everyday life, and so there some rewards and there are some challenges, and so the rewards is, you know, people recognizing my authenticity and my intentionality. The challenges are people recognizing my authenticity and intentionality [laughs], and I think, you know, when we live authentically, everything is not great. Everything is not gold. When you live authentically, you are subjecting yourself to be more vulnerable to harm. For queer and trans folks, for black folks who are in white areas, for queer and trans folks who are in straight-dominated areas, your authenticity can get you killed. And so I think from--and you know what, I think we see that every day, you know? Something that really is exciting me has been this new show on FX called Pose.Zach: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Preston: And it is--I have many friends in the house and ball communities, and it is such a brilliant depiction, and it’s so incredibly nuanced of what I would like to consider at least black and brown trans women nurturing queer or gay boys, black and brown gay boys, to life. And so, you know, those are trans women who are putting themselves on the front lines every single day, who are, you know, creating new communities for them to thrive in because in the communities that they exist in, which are these straight, cis-dominated spaces, they are by and large targeted, and so for me it’s like, “What does that look like? What does it look like to exist in spaces that are mainstream, that I know I’m not gonna be accepted in, and to create these alternative spaces where I can actually be affirmed on a daily basis?” So, you know, again, those are challenges, and I will say part of those challenges particularly, you know, as being the first openly gay chair of the Washington Bar Association Young Lawyers division is that in the legal profession and also in the black legal profession is really big on respectability politics. So people usually are catapulted to be successful because they have somehow created this environment for themselves that are very white-accepting. I have never cared in my professional life to be accepted by the white community, right? Like, that’s just not my thing. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] So wait--so wait, wait wait. So I’m actually really--so I was already excited, now I’m extra excited, right? So for our listeners, right, break down respectability politics, especially from the position of an activist and, like, all of the things that you drive. Like, if there was someone here who’s listening to this who’s like, “What is respectability politics like?” Give us the Preston definition of respectability politics.Preston: Okay. All right, so Preston? So a very blunt definition. So--no, so respectability politics, or the politics of respectability, is quite frankly the notion that you--everything you do, your existence, your actions, your behaviors are for white people, and so for white people who are generally accepted who dominate--I shouldn’t say culture, right, ‘cause that’s certainly not true. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Right.Preston: But who dominates certain things like business, law, policy, et cetera. So, you know, there’s this idea for example that now, you know, if black boys and black men only dressed up in suits and ties they would be accepted by white people, right? As if the reason why black boys are being killed on the streets, or black women also being killed on the streets, is because they don’t look a certain way. Mind you, you know, folks like Martin Luther King were clearly gunned down by FBI agents.Zach: Right.Preston: Mind you, black and brown folks were being, you know, sprayed with fire hoses in the 1950s, since antiquity frankly, but continuing up until now, right? Like, the fire hoses just look like bullets now. So, you know, the thing that we always have to remind people is, you know, live authentically and intentionally because it’s not like respectability politics is the reason why you are disliked, why you are relegated. It reminds me of when I do lobb--I lobby a lot for my job, so it reminds me of when I go to the Hill, and, you know, sometimes I’ll wear a suit and tie, sometimes I won’t. Frankly it really depends on how I feel on that day and if my eyebrows look good. And so--Zach: Listen. Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. In all seriousness--wait, wait wait. ‘Cause your eyebrows on your website? Impeccable.Preston: Thank you. To your viewers, I need them to go and see my eyebrows because I really appreciate my eyebrow lady Kim in Silver Spring, Maryland at (inaudible). [laughs]Zach: Now, are they--is it--now, this is my question. Are they--is it threaded? Or is it--like, ‘cause they look great.Preston: You know, I appreciate that. They’re actually waxed, and so I’m afraid that the more I do it I’m not gonna have anymore. I’ma be looking like Whoopi Goldberg, but hopefully that’s not--sorry, Whoopi. My bad.Zach: No disrespect to Whoopi Goldberg just in case you ever come on the show. (inaudible).Preston: I mean, she practices respectability politics sometimes too, so I hope she comes on the show so we can talk about that.Zach: [laughs] Yes. Let’s go, man. Hey, let the cannons (inaudible) for that. We callin’ you out, Whoopi Goldberg. We got beef with you. [laughs]Preston: [laughs] Right. I mean, you know, I’m pretty sure that Ted Danson and others would agree, but nonetheless. Nonetheless. No, so yes, I go to the Hill a lot. Part of my job is lobbying on behalf of young people and their sexuality and reproductive health and rights, and, you know, again, sometimes I come in a suit, sometimes I do not, and the criticism I’ve received from some of my partners within coalition spaces are that, you know, they immediately shut down the conversation the second I may walk into an office. Mind you, we’re going to Capitol Hill. Mind you, Capitol Hill’s predominantly white. Mind you, Capitol Hill’s predominantly straight. So they’re shutting down the conversation because my entire body as a black gay man just came into their office, not because of, you know, me not wearing a suit and a tie, and they’re certainly not gonna listen faster just because I wear a suit and a tie.Zach: Right.Preston: On top of that, I’m advocating on behalf of marginalized communities’ rights. So I’m advocating on behalf of abortion access, on behalf of comprehensive sexuality education that’s queer-affirming, advocating on behalf of things like pre-exposure prophylaxis and HIV prevention and treatment. So the conversation is shutting down just because we already don’t agree philosophically, and so I always have to tell people like, “Yes, it may make us feel better to pretend as though white people are going to accept us just because we are, you know, acquiescing to whatever they deem as acceptable, but that’s just simply not true, and I personally in my professional career have refused to do that for the sake of appeasing to a mainstream audience. Now, all of that being said, I think for me, I’ve decided to personally do that, and that is, you know, that’s--again, that’s word I’ve received because people were like, “You are very bold, and I appreciate you for knowing who you are and staying true to that,” and then the challenges sometimes can be, “Okay, I know the space I’m entering. I already know how I’m coming into, you know, this particular space that may or may not be safe and affirming.” So how do I navigate that accordingly? And I think that’s the conversations that I have to have every day and I’m sure that many of your viewers have to have every day too.Zach: Straight up, yeah. So that actually leads me to my next question. So you’ve done a masterful job of combining your passions around people, particularly the most unheard in our culture and in our country, in our world, in your profession. How were you able to do that, and would you consider that a situation where you’ve, like, arrived? Or is that something you have to really fight to maintain?Preston: Hm. So, you know, I would say what’s really helped me in these situations honestly have been mentors and people who I’ve networked with, really tight-knit circles and people who support me. I think without mentorships and networking it’s really impossible to--sure, you can live authentically, but I think when you’re pushed into the wall you really still need people to support you and lift you along the way, and I think sometimes that’s what’s difficult about being black and queer and trans when you’re not in spaces like D.C. or Atlanta. I mean, it’s hard still even in these spaces, but spaces like D.C., New York, Atlanta, places that presumed to be more accepting which sometimes are not. You know, if you’re in the rural south, right, how can you get mentors and networking from folks who are, you know, black, queer, and trans who are older, who are viewed as more successful? I will say personally, right, like, I don’t think I can turn on a TV many times and see two black men, two black, same gender-loving men being intimate. You know, I saw it recently. I saw it last week when I watched Pose, and I was shocked because that’s just not something that happens, you know? And I think that’s the thing, like, we have to really kind of come to terms with, right? Like Marlon Riggs one time said, “Black men loving each other is a revolutionary act,” and I think for me I recognize that, and I’m always humbled by my mentors and my networking opportunities. So that’s that. I think it’s really--I fight to maintain it every single day, and sometimes it’s easier than at other times, right? Because I think these mentors who I’ve networked with and who I’ve built loving and affirming relationships with, they will always support me, but I’m still battling a mainstream community who may not, and so, you know, thankfully--and I’m only 32, but thankfully I’ve created this kind of forcefield within myself that I know who to listen to, who to block out voices. It reminds me sometimes of when my friends would read comments after I’ve written articles, and they’ll text me like, “I am so angry what so-and-so said!” I was like, “Who are they?” Right? ‘Cause I’ve learned to just not check them out, and I’ve learned--and it just doesn’t bother me. Unless I feel like being shady on Twitter, chances are I’m not gonna respond to someone negatively responding to me ‘cause it just--I don’t even really realize it frankly, and I think--but I still think you fight to maintain that. You know, being black and queer isn’t easy, you know? Every day we walk around, even within all of our glory and our joy, we have to try to be resilient, and you know what? I think I’ve realized that I’m tired of being resilient. Resilience is a burden. It makes you literally--it puts you on this kind of pedestal if you are resilient and if your black joy shines brighter than others, but what about when people just are depressed and they want to be depressed? Are we turning our back on them because they’re not showing that they’re resilient anymore? And so for me, I’m gonna always fight to maintain it, and some of those days are gonna be better than others. I’m gonna shine. Shine, black boy, shine one day, and the next day I’m gonna be like, “I’m not getting out of this bed. Please bring the nearest bottle of Jack or Hennessy to me,” and that’s just what it’s gonna be, you know? But I do think that what’s really important is for us to kind of really think through queer and trans folks, LGBTQ folks, you know, who battle with ourselves internally every day because of social antagonism, we battle, you know, with white LGBTQ people because many white LGBTQ people--I won’t say many--some white LGBTQ people are racist and refuse to check that racism because, you know, we’re marginalized too, and it’s like, “Your marginalization looks very different.” It’s different, and it’s not layered often times, right? Like, you know, the one thing that I have to share with white people who say, “Well, you know, I grew up poor,” and I was like, “You didn’t grow up poor because you were white though, right?” Like, you can still experience hardships, but your hardships will never be connected to your whiteness. Black and brown folks and other racial minorities can never say that because we know our racial identity is always gonna be cross-connected with another oppression or marginalization that we’re experiencing, and so I think we just always have to kind of put those into play and realize, you know, the battles that we have, internally because of society, with white LGBTQ folks because of racism, and with the black folks because--straight black folks because of homophobia and transphobia, and biphobia frankly. We can’t leave out bisexuality and what that means for a lot of people. So yeah, so, again, you know, mentors helped me. They will always be there along the way. They push and support me, and in turn I give back to younger folks because, you know, without my mentors and without my close friends and my family I wouldn’t know where I would be, and I would also still have to fight to maintain that every day, and I’m fighting to maintain this authenticity and intentionality because without that I’m nothing.Zach: So, you know, in 2013 you wrote a piece in The Atlantic about coming out as a gay man, and you really tackled the nuances of that decision. Taking a step back, right, as a cis-hetero black man--that’s me, right--I think it’s easy for me to default and kind of just ignore the various identities within, like, just the diaspora, right, within our black space, and I think that speaks to a certain level of privilege. I think that’s pretty obvious. What advice if any do you have for, like, cis-hetero black men who are at the top of their own privilege pyramid of sorts and how they can be mindful, supportive allies?Preston: Yeah. So since this is a conversation I’ma talk to you like I’m a Baptist preacher.Zach: Let’s go. [laughs]Preston: So let me ask you. If your homies, if your straight homies say anything that could be perceived as derogatory about LGBTQ folks, do you think that you would be kind of confident enough in your masculinity and your sexuality to say, “Yo, that’s not cool. Don’t say that.”Zach: That’s a great question actually ‘cause I have these conversations, right? And so--and you mentioned a point about being a Baptist preacher, so we actually have--we actually have a guest that’s gonna be on the show by the time of this recording in a week. Her name is Janet Pope, and she is the leader of diversity and inclusion for Capgemini, which is, like, this global consulting firm, right?Preston: Nice.Zach: She’s actually a colleague of mine ‘cause we both work at the same firm, and so I was telling her about Living Corporate, right? And she was like--she was like, “So you say that you’re gonna include gay people in your discussion around underrepresented communities. How do you align that with your Christianity?” And I was like, “Well, let’s just say for argument’s sake like I believe exactly what the Bible says.” Let’s say that. Let’s (inaudible) what the Bible says. At the end of the day, like, everybody that I see around me are human beings, so if I sit back and I ignore somebody, right, if I ignore somebody or if I try to limit their voice, one I’m practicing the same type of oppression--I’m practicing a cheap form of the same oppression that I complain about, and on top of that you kind of--you actually rob people of their humanity when you ignore them, when you dismiss them, when you downgrade them, right? And so those are the kind of conversations I have with my friends. Thankfully, you know, but I definitely have had other discussions with people where it’s been like--I’ve been like, “Listen, this--like, nah, that’s wack,” or “No, you shouldn’t say that,” or whatever the case is or da-da-da-da. Like, let them live their life. That guy ain’t doing nothing to you. Keep it to yourself.” Whatever, whatever, and, like, those don’t always go well, right? It’s not every--like, I’m 28 years old, so, like, yes, like, I’m starting to get to the age where we’re having these nuanced, comfortable discussions, but man, three, four years ago, four or five years ago, you try to say something like that? Nah, man. It was--it was not like that, but, you know, as you get older--I know you get it. Like you said, you’re in your early 30s. Relationships change, and it’s kind of like, “Okay, I’m gonna let you have it, but you’re gonna have to back up talking to me like that or talking around me like that because I’ma check you every time.”Preston: Yeah. See, and I--oh, go ahead.Zach: Last thing is, like, I’m also really passionate about it beyond the fact that, like, what I said before, like, just recognizing and respecting the humanity of everybody, everybody around you, ‘cause they’re human beings. You know, I have gay family members. I have gay friends. So, like, it’s personal to me as well, you know what I’m saying?Preston: Yeah. See, and I really appreciate all of that because the one thing that I will say is that, you know, it actually reminds me sometimes, I mean similar when I hear--when I talk to black men, and this is not just exclusive to black men but, you know, I am one so that’s--you know, that’s what I know.Zach: Yes. [laughs]Preston: And it’s interesting talking to some black men, gay or straight, because something I’ve really noticed is when this conversation comes up when it comes to respect of women, you know, they’re like, “Yeah, I would quickly say something,” but then turn around and make a sexist comment, whether it’s covert or overt or won’t say anything to their friends when they make a sexist comment or a comment around, you know, the way a woman looks or, you know, her body parts, right? And I’m just like, “I know that seems normal, right, because we’re so used to sexualizing women in a culture that promotes rape culture and perpetuates rape culture, but that’s not okay, and that’s also problematic, right?” And so, you know, I think when it comes to--when I think about what straight men can do, what black straight men can do, always think about a couple of things, and I think one of them is certainly, like, when you really hear your homies making comments is to always, you know, be willing to say something, right? Whether it makes you look like you’re emasculated, whether it makes your friends question your sexuality, right? You need to be in solidarity, and I think being in solidarity sometimes is risking, you know, those things like the safehood of your masculinity, the safeness of your sexuality. I think, you know, that is what being an ally looks like. You know, I remember a couple of years ago we were having a protest for BYP100, and it was--you know, we were protesting for violence against trans women, black trans women, and this straight--presumably straight black man outside, who we were like, “Okay, we’re protesting on behalf of black people. Like, maybe, hopefully you should join us.” Quickly, you know, identified in my opinion as a white supremacist. He literally looked like what I imagine white supremacists to look like when they’re yelling at black people in the 60s.Zach: Goodness. Goodness gracious.Preston: You know, he got in front of one of my comrades who was a woman and started to yell at her because she’s more masculine-presenting and, you know, made comments like, you know, “If you want to be a man,” you know, insert words here.Zach: Goodness gracious.Preston: And so because I am a man I decided to intervene, right? Like that man probably would’ve threw me all around, right? But at the end of the day what allyship to women looks like to me is putting myself in harm’s way so you won’t be hit, right? Like, and I think sometimes we have to really analyze what allyship looks like for us because if people aren’t even willing to speak up when they see harm being done, they’re certainly not willing to, like, take a punch because of it, right? And I’m not saying that everything that happens you have to put yourself in harm’s way, but it was disappointing that other--that straight men out there saw this presumably straight man pretty much attacking a woman and didn’t say anything about it, and then you have to take my queer self with my tight jeans protesting outside to say something to this man, right?Zach: [laughs] Right, right.P And to me, now I’m really interrogating what manhood looks like, right? If I’m willing to throw some hands and you’re not. So I think that’s something that really troubles me, and so, you know, I think it’s also important that straight men actually admit that they have a gay friend. It’s amazing how many things that I see on social media posts, like memes, such as “Is it normal for a straight man to have a gay man best friend?” And I’m just like, “Why is this silly meme real?” Right?Zach: Right? [laughs] Right.Preston: Like, why are we even questioning this? I’m like--I didn’t literally--like, friendships are not necessarily built upon someone’s sexuality. Now, certainly there is some nuance to that because, you know, before I moved to D.C. I didn’t have many gay friends. I had some. You know, I grew up in Ohio and in North Carolina, which we existed clearly there too, but the numbers weren’t as numerous as here. And a lot of my friendships shifted to more of my LGBTQ friends because that’s the community I felt safer in. They went to the same places I wanted to go to. But I think for--you know, but obviously I still have straight black male friends, and I think, you know, the conversations came up where, you know, I would always go to every single straight bar that you could think of with them. I’m like, “Oh, God.” I’m like, “Y’all want to go to The Park AGAIN?” Like, yeah, I’ma go eat some jerk.Zach: [laughs] People love Park out there.Preston: Right? I’m like, “Fine, I’m gonna go eat some jerk, wings, and mac and cheese for $5 with a side of Crown, but also where the gay people at? ‘Cause I don’t wanna be here all night.”Zach: Straight up, though.Preston: Right? But then I would ask them like, “Yo, I’m going to this gay party. Black folks, you wanna go with me?” They’re like, “Uh, that ain’t my thing,” and I’m like, “Well, straight? That ain’t my thing either and I’m still here!”Zach: [laughs]Preston: And so I challenged their friendship because I’m just like, you know, you being the person who is centered in this space expect me, as your gay friend, knowing I’m gay, knowing I may not--Zach: To make yourself comfortable.Preston: Exactly. Like, you told me to come here with you, and I did because we’re friends, and I’ma still have a good time because we’re friends, but the second, you know, I tell you to come to a gay club, everything is gay now. Everything is about gayness. It’s not about me being a friend and you supporting your friend at a bar or a club. So, you know, again, I think that’s another thing that straight black men or, you know, straight black allies generally can do is really, you know, admit to having a gay friend, actually going once or twice to a club. Like, right? Get out of your comfort level. One of my fraternity brothers went to the bar with me, and it was amazing how--he’s straight, and it’s amazing how he said to me like, you know, “Yeah, I wasn’t comfortable a little bit, I can’t even lie.” He was like, “But, you know, when somebody tried to hit on me, I basically was just like “I’m straight,” and he left me alone.” And I’m like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen? I know what you thought. What you thought was gonna happen was the thing that y’all do to straight women, is that y’all keep attacking them even when they tell you no, and y’all assume that all women at any place are straight as if lesbian women don’t exist. So I’m like, you know, “Just because you can’t take no for an answer does not mean that thing is reciprocated in our community.” Now, to be fair, it’s not always--Zach: [laughs] Preston got these bars for you, dog. He don’t care, boy. He let the yopper spray. My goodness. Keep going, though. [laughs]Preston: [laughs] But I can talk all the time about this issue because I think straight black men specifically in this conversation have to be better allies and have to figure out, you know, what allyship looks like, what speaking up on behalf of LGBTQ folk looks like, what, you know, sometimes putting yourself in harm’s way, though that shouldn’t be the case, and actually, you know, listening and acting as opposed to just speaking. Not for political gain, not to get the woman you like or the girl you like, but to just be a good ally to be in solidarity with people. So there’s a litany of things that I can continue saying, but it’s just really important that, you know--and I guess I’ll end on this note on saying that, you know, straight--to be good allies, heterosexual people really have to think through what it looks like to demand people to come out. I’ve had so many conversations with people over the years that said something like, “I would respect them if only they were openly gay like you,” and I’m like, “I shouldn’t get any accolades for being openly gay.” I’m in a position where, quite frankly, I pay my bills, I support myself. I’m okay with whatever consequences come my way as a result of me being openly gay. There are many people who cannot afford that. There are many people who can experience homelessness because of being kicked out of homes. There are many people who are exposed to violence every day because of it, and so I think we have to really start having these honest, raw conversations about what it looks like and the harm that people are experiencing when someone says, “I would respect them more if only they were gay like you.”Zach: Man, that’s profound, though, and I really appreciate you sharing this. I have, like, two more questions, right? So are there any resources you’d like to point the audience to on how to just learn how to be a better ally for the LGBTQ community?Preston: You know, I think the best resources frankly are everyday interactions with people, you know? ‘Cause I don’t really think you can--I mean, certainly you can Google and read up how to be an ally, but I would truly like to believe that we have enough common sense to understand what allyship looks like. I think the problem is that folks, many--in my honest opinion, many people don’t want equality. They want the ability to oppress other people, right? Like, we like to feel--as much as we try to push against whiteness, we like the ability to be white in many instances, right? And so I think, like, you know, we still have this totem pole, and we’re all trying to not be at the bottom of that totem pole, and so whenever I hear white people say, “Well, Preston, I didn’t know I couldn’t say the N word,” I’m like, “You’re--okay, you’re lying.” Right? Like, you know you shouldn’t have said that. You know you shouldn’t have alluded to it. You know you should’ve skipped over it in every rap song, but now you’re being decentered and you don’t like that feeling. You know what you should or should not do or should or should not say, you know? Straight black men know they should not be homophobic, right? And I will say obviously we can talk about, you know, Judeo-Christian, being Judeo-Christian, we can talk about fundamentalist Christians, we can talk about, you know, traditionalist principles and understandings, and that’s an important conversation to have, but we also have to peel back layers of why we think what we think, right? And why we’re pushing our thought process on other people when we haven’t even really interrogated why we think how we think. You know, many people--we’re just living and existing every day going through the motions based off of what we were told as children, not even questioning why we were told certain things. Growing up, my mom used to always be so frustrated with me ‘cause she’d always be like, “Why do you ask so many questions?” I’m like, “I love you. I know you are never going to harm me, at least intentionally, but I need to know why.” Right? And saying I said so is not an answer. Like, that’s not how youth development works, and I say the same thing for people, like, that’s not how adult development works either. We have to interrogate and question certain things, and I know that’s going a little bit off your question, but it’s only because, you know, right, like, I think resources are such an important thing in question, but I think the only way we can really, you know, truly get to the true resource, and that’s everyday interactions with folks who we want to learn from, right? And be willing, be willing to sometimes be cussed out to get to an answer we want.Zach: [laughs]Preston: I would like to believe I’m a good ally to trans people, right? I could be completely mistaken, right, ‘cause I’m not trans, and of course I would say I’m a good ally, but I know for me to even become a--for me to have been an OK ally, for me to get here, I had to be cussed out by many trans women for saying the wrong thing, for looking the wrong way, for staring too long at something, right? Like, that was--that was where I existed, you know, some years ago. I think over time the more I started to learn and genuinely be friends with trans folks, right? Like, not transactionally, genuinely be friends with trans folks is when I started to become a better ally. So we have to put ourselves in community with people if they believe, right, if that community believes that they can be safe and affirmed with your presence, ‘cause sometimes the sheer presence of someone is oppressive, and that’s why I always talk about safe spaces. That’s why I always talk about black-dominated spaces and black-only spaces, because sometimes the sheer existence of white people is exhausting, right? Because something will come up. It makes me think about this episode of Dear White People when, like, you know, they went to, you know, a party in Season One, you know, and they’re dancing and having a good time, and I forget what song came on, but of course it was a rap song, and the N word--you know, and somebody said the N word, and I’m just like, “Ugh, of course,” because when white people are around, you can absolutely guarantee it’s gonna be said once by them, right? And that’s exhausting, right? It’s laborious to have to tell someone like, “Can you not---can you not do that?” Like, “It’s Sunday. I’m trying to have a good day. I just prayed earlier,” right?Zach: [laughs]Preston: I think stuff like that is exhausting. So all that being said, the best resource is talking to people who are living these experiences.Zach: No, that’s awesome. [laughs] Look, this has been--this has been a great discussion, and, like, to be honest, before we, you know, started recording and everything, I was talking to the team and I was like, “Man, I already know this conversation’s gonna be lit. I can’t wait,” and I’ma be honest with you, Preston, you ain’t let me down at all, not that it should matter.Preston: I appreciate that.Zach: Not that my--not that my standards should matter for you at all, but I’m just letting you know I’ve had a great time. I want to thank you for coming to the show again. Before we go, do you have any shout outs? Do you have anyone you’re working with? Any other projects you want to talk about? Anything at all?Preston: Yes! I would love to shout out our youth activists at Advocates for Youth. We work with about 130 young people throughout the country, many of who are black and brown and queer and trans, and they’re every day working on projects and campaigns related to HIV decriminalization, abortion access and destigmatization. They’re working on--our Young Women of Color Leadership Initiative are working on, like, prison reform issues and issues of criminalization of black girls in schools. Our Muslim Youth Leadership project are literally existing between the identities of being Muslim and queer and trans and are building out platforms and policies on that. Our International Youth Leadership Council are pushing against the Trump administration (and?) the Global Gag Rule. I could continue, but our young people--young people are the most lit people and will literally build a liberation and a new movement that looks like freedom every single day, and so I really want shout out young people at Advocates for Youth and really young people all over the country, especially black and brown young people. You know, your viewers can definitely follow me on Twitter @PrestonMitchum or on Instagram @Preston.Mitchum. I’m really excited. I’m working on a lot of writing projects to come soon, but, you know, I’m really working on a portfolio on sexual and reproductive health and rights, and the last thing that I’ll say, what’s really important is to decriminalize sex work. Something that we’re working on in D.C. is part of the Sex Workers Advocates Coalition, Collective Action for Safe Spaces, BYP100, and HIPS D.C. is--you know, we helped with council member Grosso and council member Robert White on introducing a sex work decriminalization bill. We’re attempting to get it pushed forward, so we’re needing a particular council member, Charles Allen, to move it to the public health and judiciary committee, and so that’s something that’s really important is really thinking about how sex work decriminalization is an LGBTQ issue and ironically enough how people claim to dislike sex workers but masturbate to porn every single morning. And because of that, I’ll leave off here--I’ll leave it off here, but decriminalize sex work, and thank you for the invitation. It’s been amazing.Zach: [laughs] Man. First of all, again--I keep saying first of all ‘cause I’m just taken aback every single time, but Preston-- [laughs]Preston: [laughs]Zach: So Preston, man. Look, man. As your books drop, as you continue doing what you’re doing, I hope you consider yourself a friend of the show. You’re welcome back any time, and let’s make sure--like I said as you have your things going on, let us know so we can plug ‘em for you.Preston: Absolutely, Zach. This has been so lit, and I really appreciate being here.Zach: Man, thank you so much. Okay, y’all. Well, listen, that about does us here. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it. This has been Zach. You were talking to Preston Mitchum. Peace.Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Latricia and Zach discuss personal brand with special guest, George Okpamen. Length: 1:11:50Host: Zach, Latricia#OnetimefortheOnetime #edopowa #ignutetamu #elilillyShop GeorgeOkk’s Store: https://skreened.com/georgeokk George's IG: https://www.instagram.com/georgeokkGeorge Okpamen’s TedTalk: #BeIntentional X #OneTimeForTheOneTime Part 1: https://youtu.be/4EOXqPnowlUPart 2: https://youtu.be/LZ-L-zcTJ40Affiliations:Executive VP and Co-Founder, Pharmacy Initiative Leaders (PILs) @pilsconnect www.pilsconnect.com Student National Pharmaceutical Association (SNPhA) @SNPhAEli Lilly Visiting Scientist Fellowship@VSFamAndFriendsGeorge’s Personal Brand Inspirations: Fighting the Fray, Marriage and family blog @fightingthefray https://www.instagram.com/fightingthefrayYoutube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkl29oSBy8&feature=youtu.be Cosmo Creative, marketing and Advertising @cosmocreative https://www.instagram.com/cosmocreativeWww.Cosmocreative.net Edose Ohen, Global Entrepreneurhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/edoseohenCourtney Brand, Social Media Branding Expert @greeneyesgoldsoul https://www.instagram.com/greeneyesgoldsoulTheBWerd.com Tobe Nwigwe, Inspirational Rap Artist @tobenwigwe https://www.instagram.com/tobenwigweLinktree: https://linktr.ee/tobenwigweGary Vaynerchuk, Businessman, Author and SpeakerWww.GaryVaynerchuk.com @garyvee https://www.instagram.com/garyveeEric Thomas, Motivational SpeakerWww.etinspires.com @etthehiphoppreacher https://www.instagram.com/etthehiphoppreacherTRANSCRIPTZach: If I had about three traits that I would like to portray within three seconds of meeting someone, they would be intentional, bold, and authentic. Now, would those be the first three words I use to describe myself when I walk into a room with a corporate executive or would they be the first three words that my colleague used to describe me? I'd like to hope so. Studies show that it takes three seconds for someone to make a lasting and complete impression. As a black man in corporate America, I'm too often faced with the reality that certain assumptions about my capabilities have already been ascribed to me as soon as I walk into a room filled with people who have never worked with someone who looks like me. It becomes a constant game of trying to figure out how I can make an impression on them before they can make any assumptions about me. The question is "How do I win?" This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.So today we're talking about building your personal brand. It's funny because when I came up and I would hear about branding I often thought about billboards, but as we've continued to grow and learn it's far more than that, right?Latricia: Right, exactly. Believe it or not, people connect with people, right? And people are more likely to be persuaded by a recommendation from an individual with a trusted brand, and this is why it's really important to develop a personal brand that portrays who you are and what you value and what you're known for.Zach: Right. The question I have--is there anyone that you've met who really gave you, like, an immediate impression? Like, a "Whoa, I'm trying to be like this person."Latricia: Yeah, that's a good question. It's crazy because at my job I travel all over the country, and I've worked with amazing people for some of the biggest hospitals that you could think of, and I'm constantly exposed, right? Like, with corporate executives, VPs, C-Suite, but there was one person I met when I was in my office downtown in Dallas. We were in the elevator. I was in the elevator, and so I happened to get off the floor with the only other black person in the elevator, which made sense because as soon as I met him I realized who he actually was.Zach: Who was he?Latricia: He was a new partner at the firm actually, and so I had been hearing about this new partner. And he had kind of a funny name, or, you know, a different name, and so I really wasn't sure if he was black. No one--of course no one's gonna say, "Hey, there's a new black partner." We just know that there's a new partner. And he stopped me, introduced himself. He said, "Hey," you know, "I'm a new partner here at the firm." You know, "How long have you been working here?" Like, okay. "Hey. I've been working here for about a year. I'm new myself." He was like, "All right, great. Well, I'd love to get to know a little bit more about you, so put some time on my calendar so we can talk." And so this happens a lot, right? And, you know, people always talk about having an elevator pitch. I was still kind of new, and I had practiced my elevator pitch, but I didn't really use it in that moment 'cause he kind of took the charge in that conversation. But, you know, you meet people all the time, they tell you to put time on their calendars, and so typically what I do when someone tells me to put time on their calendar is I create an agenda. So we know in corporate America that's how you start a meeting, right? You have an agenda, and you let everybody know this is what we want to get through.Zach: Right. "This is what we're trying to achieve." So the goals, outcomes of this meeting, so and on so forth. Yeah, for sure.Latricia: Exactly, so you can be productive. You don't want to waste anyone's time. So I'm thinking, "Okay, I have, you know, maybe 30 minutes to an hour to leave an impression on him, so what am I gonna talk about?" So I just defaulted to, you know, what I usually do when people reach out to me, so I put together an agenda. So I was gonna start it by, you know, just kind of generally who I am, and when I say who I am I mean I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I majored in this and that. I went to Emory University. I majored in this and that. And I'm here now, and this is what I'm doing. These are the projects that I've been on. These are the people that I've worked with. These are the projects that I'm interested in. So, you know, real formal, right? So I put together the agenda, scheduled the call, and when we get on the phone the first thing I let him know is "Hey, you know, I put together an agenda, and I want to talk about A, B, and C," and his response was "That's great. I hope that we can get to those things, but I stopped you because you were the first black person that I've seen in this office since I've been here. I just want to know what it's like to be black at the firm."Zach: That’s crazy.Latricia: And it’s so wild to me because it had been a year since I’d been at the firm and I had never had those discussions with anyone--because I didn’t have anyone to talk to about any of those things, even on the client side. I didn’t work with any clients that had black people in leadership, and so, you know, I still wasn’t really comfortable. I talked a little bit about our ERGs at the firm--those are Employee Research Groups--and, you know, there’s one for black people, and I try to get involved. I try to do community service in black communities, and, I mean, that’s the extent which I felt comfortable talking about with him ‘cause he--again, he’s a partner. And then he shared his story, and I’m really hoping that we get him on the show because I would love for him to share his story, but when he shared his story he didn’t start with his MBA or his JD from Harvard. He just started with his--he started with his background. He’s a first-gen, similar to me. Caribbean and African, but he’s a first-gen. His mother worked for the United Nations, so growing up in New York he had a very global perspective. So he just shared a little bit more about his story, and it was just--in that moment, that was the first example for me in terms of being authentic to who you are, and that to me is his brand. Like, I’ve been in meetings with him with people who don’t look like us, and he’s the same exact same way. So it wasn’t because he was talking to another black person or another black person who’s also a first-generation child of immigrants. It wasn’t just in that moment that he said, “Okay, I can have these honest conversations about who I am and my experiences being black and being first-generation with someone that’s just like me.” It was just amazing to have those conversations, and now I try my best to do that too when I’m letting people know who I am. I’m like, “Hey, I’m Nigerian. I’m Christian. I’m a woman. These are the things I care about. I do mission trips to Nigeria. I’m gonna take my two weeks off of work every year to do these trips.” So, like, I’m more comfortable, like, letting people inside of, you know, my personal life a little bit. So yeah, like, have you come across anybody that has left that type of example on you?Zach: Yes, ma’am, and I’m not gonna drop his name. My goal is for him to be on the show one day, but I definitely do have an experience. And actually, Sound Man, go ahead and find us some type of generic Shaft music because…Latricia: Oh, gosh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I’m telling y’all. I’m telling you. Look, man, this dude was slick, man. He was, like, a combination of, like, Black Jesus and Shaft, right? So while I’m talking just lay it in the background real smooth, right? Okay, so this is my story, right? So, you know, in my experience in corporate America, I haven’t--I don’t often run into a lot of other black men, right? And when I do, like, on those every other, other, other, other instances, they’re often pretty timid, right? Like they’re not really out here trying to be seen. They’re trying to just put their head down and stack their coins and get out of here. That wasn’t the case this day, right? So I’m sitting in this little closed room, and I’m the only black man on my team, and my back is to the door, which I often don’t like to do, but anyway, the door was closed so I wasn’t tripping. Some of y’all who know about that stuff know what I mean. You don’t like (necessarily?) having your back to an open door or even a closed door. So anyway, my back was to a closed door, couldn’t do anything about it. So I’m just trying to play my music or whatever, but even over my music I heard the door open. *door opening sound* And I turn around and I’m like, “What is going on?” And the first thing I see, Latricia, is, like, the tip of this cane. A cane, though. And not a cane like a walking--like an old man, like, elderly cane, but, like, a playa cane. Like, it’s a dope cane, and then attached to this cane is this ebony black hand.Latricia: [laughs]Zach: I’m telling you. [laughs] I’m telling you. Hand is super, super, super chocolate. And then, you know, on the ground--’cause there’s a shoe, a very nicely made high quality Oxford monk-strap shoe. Might’ve been oxblood, I can’t remember. Maybe it was black, I can’t recall. But anyway, there was a--then I saw a pinstriped leg, tailored--clearly a tailored suit. Anyway, this man slides through the door. He slides through the door, pinstripe suit. He has a French cuff shirt. It’s a pink French cuff shirt with white--you know what I’m saying, white cuffs, white collar, no tie, right? Very round spectacles. Like, very clean. Everything is--everything is clearly tailored to this man. And he doesn’t have a cane for no reason, right? Like, he has a limp, and it all comes together. It’s so cool. I was like--I’m just taken aback, and I’m looking at this man because his presence in that space was so loud to me, but not loud like cacophonous, right, but loud like just a genuine presence. Like, “No, I’m here, and you can’t avoid it.” Like, he’s--he was here, and that was--that just took me aback. So anyway, we’re going on and on, and then we--you know, I’m just kind of observing him as he introduces himself, and, you know, we all do--he’s coming in to help us with, like, some leadership development work. That’s his background, feature development, executive coaching, change management, transformation, so on and so forth. So we’re all in this room ‘cause he’s here. He’s the speaker for the day on our project to help us kind of recalibrate and kind of get ourselves right and ready for what we’re trying to do with the client. So anyway, we all go to this round-table thing. Everybody standing up, “Oh, I’ve been here for this many years. I’m part of this practice. I’m based out of this city,” right? I get up, I say my thing. I say the same generic thing everybody else. We get to him, right? And so--listen, guys. He zones in. He starts talking like this, and everything he says is like butter. Like, he’s deliberate with every word he says, and he’s talking almost like--not at a whisper, right, but like at a hushed, just more smooth and still at the same time inviting tone. And so everybody--even though it was already quiet, it’s like the room got even quieter, and he’s like, “You know, I’m many things to many people. To some I’m an educator. To others I’m a salesman. To others I’m a husband and a father, but ultimately I’m a leader.” And I was just like, “What is going on?” I’m just looking around like, “Is anybody--” I’m actively looking around like, “Is anyone else witnessing this right here?” Right? And, you know, some people in the room are, like, clearly, like, taken aback. Other people are not really paying attention, but, you know, that’s a whole ‘nother podcast about people just not paying attention at work. So, you know, I’m just taken aback. I’m just listening to this man like, “What is going on?” And so after the whole big meeting, I then pull him aside and I say, “Hey, man. It was an honor to meet you,” and we start talking about the future of the executive suite, and as the country gets browner the C-Suite should also reflect it, not of course by direct ratio, but it will get browner. And so what is leadership development and coaching and all those things look like when it comes to the future? And he had some really amazing insights, you know? He could tell what I was really getting at with the question. So he gives me some dap, right? And it wasn’t like your regular, like, “I’ma just give you a handshake.” He gave me the three-clinch dap. Like, bop, boom, bam, and he says, “Holla at me though.” And I said, “What?” And I said, “What?” I was so taken aback by that, and since then we’ve been cool, and he’s a great person. Like, again, he didn’t walk in talking about this is who I am, da-da-da-da. He came in with just who he was, like, his whole essence. And, like, up to this day I always say he’s like a combination of Black Jesus and Shaft. It’s crazy. Black Jesus and Shaft with a limp and a silver-tipped cane. It’s crazy. And it was just amazing. I mean, that’s my story.Latricia: I love that we’re sharing stories from people of color who have been able to establish their personal brand in corporate America because, I mean, I would posit that it is a lot more difficult as a person of color to establish a personal brand that you can be authentic to.Zach: When you say being a person of color makes it more challenging to establish a brand, could you just expound about that? Like, what do you think makes it more challenging? Like, what do you think our ethnic identity has to do with our brand establishment?Latricia: You know, I would say, based on my experience, the strength of your personal brand is really determined by how people relate to you, and even just their willingness to relate, right? As a person of color, you’re typically faced with the challenge of trying to establish relationships with people who may overlook you because they don’t feel a personal connection to you. Without those personal relationships and people who are willing to promote you and your brand, a personal brand that is authentic to you becomes harder and harder to sustain, and that’s really when things start to get messy. That’s when people start to try to be somebody that they’re not, and how sustainable is that when it comes to just your career progression and also your quality of life and your happiness?Zach: I agree. I would say, you know, when it comes to a personal brand it’s about finding a middle ground, but really the truer statement is finding an honest ground. Like, where can you actually stand that really reflects who you are and what you’re about and that you can consistently promote? And to your point, I mean, it’s beyond just your work product or who you are at work but, like, just who you are in life because work is so much of your life. How do you demonstrate or how do you practice authenticity? And how do you present something authentic that you can consistently lean on, right, and promote for your own progression and your own career development. And, you know, it would be great if we could interview a person of color who could just share their perspective on building their personal brand, especially if they, I don’t know, had, like, an advanced degree with a career path that doesn’t typically follow a corporate route. Who maybe had a lot of public speaking experience, who still has a lot of public speaking experience, who speaks all the time, maybe on a couple TED Talks. Who, as a black man, had to navigate building relationships while also climbing the corporate leadership ladder and is still actively developing and growing his brand right now. I don’t if, like, that’s possible, but it would be great if we had somebody like that.Latricia: Oh, you mean like George Okpamen?Zach: Whaaaaaaat? *imitating Jamaican air horns* Sound Man, go--listen, Sound Man. By this point you know this is where the Jamaican air horns go. Put ‘em in here. Let’s go. [laughing] All right, so next we’re gonna have our interview with George Okpamen. Latricia: Hey, y’all. This is Latricia, and you’re listening to Living Corporate. And today we will be talking about personal branding. I’m really excited to have our guest here today, George Okpamen. He’s from Houston, Texas, currently resides in Indianapolis. He is currently working in the pharmaceutical industry at Eli Lilly. He’s a TED Talk speaker and he’s also an entrepreneur, so we’re really excited to have him on the show today to talk a little bit more about his experience in corporate America and how he’s been able to develop and maintain his personal brand. Thank you, George, for joining us today.[Sound Man throws in cheers]George: Well, I really appreciate that. It looks like I need to have you around me a lot more. That was an amazing introduction, appreciate you.Latricia: Of course. So I guess to kick things off, George, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today?George: Yes, I can, but before I do that I want to make it 1000% clear. I think when people think about personal branding--’cause I know that’s the topic today--they always mind-jump directly to social media or directly jumps to public speaking or things of that nature. Personal branding is one word, and that’s reputation, and so as you listen to the rest of this podcast or any time you hear personal branding, if you could bring that back to reputation--“What is my reputation?”--I think you will appreciate that more. ‘Cause I think there’s gonna be a lot of people that go, “Oh, personal branding? Let me take these social media tips.” That’s not what this is, but to get back to your question of my background, I’m gonna go all the way back to--One, I was born in Dallas, Texas. I’m the oldest of three boys. Parents are from Nigeria. Edo State. Edo Power. Shout out to Black Panther for giving us a shout out in the movie. Having parents that are from Nigeria--my dad came to Nigeria. He went to Georgetown so he named me George, and we’ll get into a little bit more of that story. I think that’s important to understand because growing up in Houston, Texas, as a Nigerian-American, I wasn’t very proud of that growing up. I still remember the first days of school, skipping class on that first day so that I didn’t have to get my name called and hurrying back to the teacher to tell them that, like, “Osuzuwa? Cross that out and just put George.” And so as I fast forward to high school when I went to Stafford High School in Houston, Texas, as I was lucky enough to be a varsity athlete as a freshmen and all the way up until my senior year I got the first opportunity to go to Nigeria. I say opportunity now, but back then I didn’t think it was an opportunity because I didn’t want to go to Nigeria. “I’m a scholarship athlete about to go play football.” And my parents decided to make me go to Nigeria, and so it was at that time, that summer of 20--what, 7? So 2007 that I went to Nigeria and saw my grandparents for the first time, and it changed my life literally because they are the ones who told me who I was. Spending a month with my grandfather, who was a chief, and my grandmother, seeing where my mom was one of twelve, seeing all of her kids and all of that nature really, really imparted George, who he was, and Osuzuwa, which means “God’s gift of wealth.” So before going to Nigeria I was an older brother. I was the same person before going to Nigeria that I was after, but it was one knowing who I was, being self-aware, and two having a different perspective that probably changed my trajectory literally after coming back. So coming back from Nigeria from Stafford, I decided to turn down those scholarships and pursue pharmacy at the University of Houston, and so my undergrad with the University of Houston, and to fast forward that story a little bit, I was at University of Houston where I thought I was gonna go to pharmacy school, and fast forward to year three of my four years at University of Houston when I applied and did not get into pharmacy school at University of Houston ‘cause that’s the only school I applied to. I decided to pledge Alpha, Eta Mu Chapter, at University of Houston, (inaudible) Eta Mu for those that know. And so it was during that time, and not just the fraternity--it was during that time where I saw a collective of African-American males doing big things, and so when you think of big things, especially at the collegiate level, all of our people in the Chapter were either student government president or head of other organizations on top of the fraternity, so it really taught me to not just be excellent in what you do for the fraternity but be excellent outside so that you can help the fraternity, and that learning I took when I applied to pharmacy school the following year again at Texas Southern University right across the street. And so, again, with knowing who I was, from Nigeria, and understanding the power of doing your job or doing your work and what you’re doing day to day and also being excellent outside of your day, I joined both of those together as I started pharmacy school at Texas Southern, and fast forwarding that story became the national vice president of the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, which is the largest minority pharmacy association (inaudible) in the United States, and that allowed me to get an internship at the FDA, allowed me to get a internship at Bristol-Myers Squibb, which is an industry pharmaceutical company in Jersey, and then fast forward that. I got a fellowship at Eli Lilly, which is where I currently work in corporate affairs. Got my first full-time role in oncology payer marketing. I’ve now just got promoted to a consumer marketing role in our diabetes (inaudible).Latricia: All right. Thank you for sharing your story. So storytelling is really important in understanding your background. So as you’ve navigated through corporate America, have you always felt comfortable sharing your story? Or, I guess, how important has it been for you to share where you come from?George: I think it’s been very important, and to get to your question directly, have I always been comfortable? I don’t think I always was comfortable sharing my story ‘cause I think I was just creating my story, and I’m still creating my story, but I think it became very evident to me--to your point, I think--as I even, like, right now play it back in my head, standing on stage running for the national vice president of SNPhA, and so it was at that time the process itself was obviously--I wouldn’t say obviously--was grueling ‘cause you have another gentleman who is just as qualified going against me, and I could’ve lost, but it was when I was on that stage that I realized that, hey, I almost didn’t even get into pharmacy school, and hey, I almost failed out of pharmacy school, and still I was being one of two people being slated to run for the national vice president. And then on top of that part of my story, part of my speech was sharing that and seeing how powerful it was for people after I did win to come and tell me just how powerful my story was one, but two that they saw themselves in my story, and then the third thing was some of my story had, like, failure in it, and they could relate to the failure, and they were proud that I was representing them moving forward. And so as I talk about, again, going all the way back to when I went to Nigeria, or fast forward to when I became an Alpha, all of those things prepared me for the moment, and all of those things go into my personal brand, which is now--I know the word phrase that I use is “One time for the one time,” but I’m not gonna break down one time for the one time right now, just the “Let’s go be.” “Let’s go do.” That’s something that I’m anchoring to. Let’s go be who they say you wouldn’t. Let’s go do what they say you couldn’t. And that comes from a story of failure because people told me when I failed that I probably wouldn’t be able to do something or that I probably wouldn’t be able to be something, and if I go back to that story of the national vice president, I was, and as I come up and fast forward to now being one of the co-founders at a top pharmaceutical company of our Young Professionals program, of the early career professionals, that’s something that, again, started all the way back when I went to Nigeria and met my grandparents for the first time. So now when you pair that with, okay, now all the stuff that I’m sharing on social media, or all the stuff that I’m putting on LinkedIn, or all the stuff when I even speak and give a presentation for a PowerPoint. All of those perspectives, I (have that for the mind?), and that becomes my personal brand because I know who I was. I’m able to, as you say, share my story and share what I really, really feel, think, and do and empower other people and vice versa.Latricia: Yeah, I really like what you said about relatability. I think that’s a big piece, when it’s really important with personal branding for you to be able to make a connection with people, and so telling stories that people can relate to is a way for people to, again, like I said, connect with you. So could you talk a little bit about connections and networking and, I guess, how that ties into your personal brand?George: I love the fact that you said networking ‘cause that’s another buzzword similar to personal branding that I cringe at when I hear sometimes, and so networking to me is not, like, again, something that’s just a thing you do. Networking to me is building relationships and, to your point, building connections, and it’s some of those as I go all the way back to connect--not to beat a dead horse--some of my stories back from going to Nigeria. It was along that journey that I connected and built relationships with people that allowed me to propel me to where I’m at today, and so to me anything that I do, I don’t always look for, like, “Oh, what can I get out of it?” I’m literally looking at “What can I provide to it? What value can I bring to this person, to this relationship?” And of course when you have--when you think that way 100 times, 100 out of 100--you’re not gonna always provide value 100 times. Sometimes someone’s literally gonna just give you something, and so to make this real, as I talk about--and I’ll go to the story I just used as far as being the national vice president, I always knew that being--that was my, what, third year of pharmacy school? I always knew that I wanted to do a rotation at the FDA, but our school, Texas Southern University, didn’t have a relationship with the FDA, and they didn’t have a relationship with Bristol-Myers Squibb, but it was me being a national vice president--and we had a parent organization called the National Pharmaceutical Association. Traditionally they didn’t really have a good relationship because the SNPhA, the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, was just worried about the students, and the National Pharmaceutical Association was just worried about the professionals, and so I took it upon myself to make sure to help build that relationship. It wasn’t until the end of my term though that that quote unquote paid off, and I didn’t do it for any bad reason. I just wanted them to have a good relationship, and it was this one final presentation that I did, and one of the members of the National Pharmaceutical Association came up to me like, “Man, you’ve done a great job this year. That was a great presentation.” Like, “What are your career aspirations?” And I told her about, like, “Hey, I want to work in industry. I want to be able to someday sometime continue to wear suits all the time instead of working retail.” She said, “That’s awesome. Have you heard about the FDA internship?” I was like, “Yeah, I actually applied about a month ago,” and she was like, “Oh, really? What part?” And I told her, and she was like, “Here. Here’s my card.” On that card it said FDA Manager Such-and-Such-and-Such-and-Such. I won’t give her name just to protect it. And she said, “Make sure you email me the application.” Now, to this day she will never say that she did anything about it, but I’m not stupid, and it was not because I, day one, was like, looked her up or day two even went after her to ask her what she did. She saw what I provided one to the organization and saw how I carried myself every single day, and she wanted to provide value to me because I was providing value to the greater organization, and that’s how I believe networking is. It’s about building relationships, building connections, and building value for others and other things bigger than you, and as you do that the universe and others will, I believe, give you your desires.Latricia: Right. Like you said, networking is a huge buzz-term. I know starting in my career, in graduate school, going to different job fairs, and we have our career counselors telling us, “Make sure you network.” I was like, “Okay. I don’t-- What do I do to network? I’m just gonna put together a resume,” or “I’m just gonna make sure I print out some business cards, and I’m gonna hand ‘em to people and tell them I want a job,” and I thought that that was what networking was, but like you’re saying, it’s deeper than that. It’s about relationships. It’s about connections and finding that way to connect with someone. So, you know, being in my career now for almost three years, I get a lot of people that reach out to me and say, “Hey, I want to be where you’re at.” Like, “What do I need to do to get there?” And they talk to me about a lot of the different barriers that they face. Typically they just don’t have the experience, or maybe they went to a certain school and that school doesn’t have relationships with certain firms that they want to go into, ‘cause you know that’s kind of how it works. These firms, they pick the schools that they want to build relationships with, and those have become roadblocks for them. And so could you--I know you shared your story. Could you also share just, like, some tactical advice for people who may be in that situation where they want to get into a certain career but just putting together a resume or a business card isn’t gonna be enough to get them in the door because a structural or institutional relationship with some of these firms hasn’t been established by maybe their school or, you know, the networks that they’re already a part of.George: Those are great questions, and for me, I know I’m a big storyteller, so this one, to your point, I’ma try to get tactical and straight to the point, and so I’ll start at your first part when you talked about the networking piece of it, ‘cause when I say networking I 1000%, with everything I just said, I’m 1000% understanding that there’s gonna be a networking conference where it’s just a room, like, 100 people, resumes and business cards. So, in that situation, what do you do to build a relationship? What do you do to start the conversation or to get a connection when you’re pretty much just dropped into a room? So the first thing you do is try to find some type of, as we talked about, relatability. Something that connects you to another person. I think LinkedIn is a powerful tool. So whatever company that you are--I’ll say Company ABC--if you type in Company--I’m actually looking at a Glad wrapper thing right now in my room as far as the trash can--if you want to work for Glad, go into LinkedIn and type in Glad Manager, right? You’re gonna type in and, like, what, 60 people are gonna pop up, and in order for you to obviously do this hopefully your LinkedIn is already on point or at least you have a picture and you have it--at the basic level. You have where you went to undergrad, where you went to graduate school, and some of your skills. It doesn’t need to be, on a scale of 1 to 10, a 10, but it needs to at least be minimally a 7.5, 8 (in scales of?) how your LinkedIn should look when you’re even about to do what I’m going to tell you. So when you want to work for Glad and you put in Glad Manager, all of these people are gonna pop up. Then you’re gonna have the opportunity to say, hey, send this person a message or connect. Now, everybody and their mom--this is pretty much called cold calling--everybody and their mom is gonna get spam or emails or things of that nature that they do not want to read or see in their box, but the point is they actually look in their box when they’re looking at their LinkedIn. Like, I look at my LinkedIn just as much as I look at my Instagram as far as messaging. There’s messages I don’t open, but you always, always, always see the picture of whoever, whatever message that is, and you always see the subject line. So take it upon yourself to be creative and say, like, “Hey, Jim. Would love to talk real quick.” Like, you literally have, like, a sentence to say something. “Hey, Jeff. Interested in Glad. Love to learn more. Love to have two minutes of your time if you have a minute.” Now, again, when you do this 60 times, you might get 58 out of 59, like, no responses, but all you need is one, and then when you have that opportunity you’re able to talk to Jim from Glad and get information from Jim from Glad that you wouldn’t have got because you never even did it in the first place. Now, when I say the information, be very thoughtful in the questions that you ask and what you want to know, but then from there it’s not about even just getting information. It goes back to what we started with. It’s about building a relationship and a connection of following up with Jim from Glad on whatever you talked about, and you have to have the resiliency to know one you’re gonna get a lot of no’s, two Jim from Glad might not talk to you again for another two, three months, but the next time you talk to them, what is the progress that you’ve made to make yourself a better candidate to be from there? Jim from Glad, who’s a manager, will see this over time, which sometimes a lot of us don’t like to hear, and then next year at this same time you are a well better-qualified candidate to work at Glad than you were before that opportunity. Now, that was one drawn out tactical example, but you do that over time multiple times to different industries, and that’s to me one way--there’s many ways--to get yourself in the door. And so I’ll put a bow on it by saying, again, that was a tactical example. Whenever there’s roadblocks to situations that you have, one it starts in your mindset of knowing, “Hey, I can find a way around this. I can find a way or make a way to get into the situation I want to get to.” So once you have that, two you go and find a creative way to get around that, whether it is going outside of the normal ways of getting that opportunity for you. Like I said, cold calling on LinkedIn or setting up or bumping into Jim from Glad at his specific place that he likes to go grab a drink and sparking up a conversation or just reaching out to other people outside your network, and then the third thing after that is to stay resilient and stay consistent. So you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s from people. Keep on pushing, and then also consistent, that means over time you continue to do the same excellent type of work and communication until you get what it is that you want. And so if you put all those together, hopefully that roadblock will become something that is a setup for you.Latricia: So I want to talk a little bit more about this TED Talk. We’re going to make sure we link it below so that everyone can go and listen to it because it’s really great. I mean, we all know, TED Talk, they don’t just have anyone up there speaking, and it’s a huge platform to be on. Could you talk a little bit about promoting yourself through this TED Talk? So one, first question I guess, how did you promote yourself to even be selected to speak on a TED Talk? ‘Cause I think we can gain some insight from that, and two, what was the aftermath, like, for your TED Talk? I know you posted it on social media, things like that. Like, what were you able to gain? ‘Cause that was you putting your personal brand out there. What did you gain after the TED Talk?George: Yeah. So, again, a big part of me in general, the way I see my perspective on life, is that--and I know this is gonna sound bad, but people--just like I’ve said before, people--when I say the word privilege, and I’m glad that Charlamagne has even put a book out there, and I had been thinking this way before he put the book out there so I did not steal this. When I think of privilege, I think that I’m very privileged. When I say that, again, it sounds bad, but again, if you read the Charlamagne book he does a great job of explaining what I’m about to say. I’m lucky enough or privileged enough to have two parents. Everyone doesn’t have two parents. I’m privileged to have--to be the oldest of three brothers. Everyone is not fortunate enough to be the oldest. And so when I’m able to--like, those are just two simple things that I anchor to when I’m able to say I’m also privileged to work at Eli Lilly, and I’m privileged to come through the Visiting Scientist Fellowship when there’s only 12 pharmacists my year that got selected to be a part of the fellowship process. I took full advantage of that, so much so that my first year, and the blog is still out there, I wrote a blog about the Visiting Scientist Fellowship. I’m the first fellow in the 20-year history of the program to write a blog about it. And so when I’m doing things like this already, people start--like, this was within my first, like, six months of being at the company. People like, “Who the heck is this guy?” And then after that, I followed up by being the first Visiting Scientist fellow to get directly onto a brand team afterwards, ‘cause typically when you’re a Visiting Scientist fellow you’re in the science side of things, or you’re maybe even on the medical side of things, and so I always knew that I wanted to get into marketing, so I was lucky enough--again, someone had to choose me. As great as I was, as bad as I was, as smart as I thought it was, someone still had to say, amongst four people, “George, you are that person.” So again, to me, that is a privilege. So because of that privilege I understand the platform that I have, and so any time that I get into something I want to showcase that. And so this goes back to your question of how did I get selected. I didn’t even know that I was selected until somebody just said, “Hey, there was some behind the scenes stuff going on,” and people kept saying, like, “Who is this George guy? Who is this George guy? We want to know more about him.” And so the topic of TED that year was--and I’m not gonna be specific, but it was something to the effect of being authentic and sharing your origin story, and so people want to know what makes George tick. Like, “He’s doing all these different things, what makes George tick?” And I’m glad you said about the personal brand thing, and similar to what we just talked about with LinkedIn, everything about that TED Talk was intentional, so much so that the name was intentional. The name of my TED Talk was Be Intentional: #OneTimefortheOneTime, and when I say that you don’t see it, but when you see the title when you actually watch the TED Talk, it was done in hashtags on purpose. So you can imagine--I had 20 speakers that day. Every speaker had a normal title with quotations, like, spaces and everything, and then you have this black, young guy, which I was the youngest guy on the stage that day, with hashtags. And so that was intentional too to let people know like, hey, one you can be a young guy two years into the company and be on the TED stage and still show up and be on the same stage with people who have been in the game for--and this TED Talk had people both at our company and outside our company. So be on the stage with people who have been in the game for 20, 30 years. That’s one. Two, you don’t have to do what everybody else is doing. Your title can have hashtags too. Your title--you can, like, bring yourself into whatever it is that you’re doing. And then three, if no one ever even read the TED Talk or heard it or anything at all, by the title itself, just by seeing my title I’m giving you what I want to give you. I want you to be intentional, and I want you to take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime and a lifetime of opportunity. So that was, like, the thought process that I had as far as putting the TED Talk together, and then from there the TED Talk--as and when you hear it, it’s not even about me. It’s about--yes, it’s my origin story, but it was really a shout out to all the people that have allowed me to be on that stage. And so after that, to your point, I officially started my clothing line Message on Merch, which says messages, just like I did with the title. Positive messages on merchandise, and so with that, my TED Talk (power to the people?) and it allowed me to empower others. By them buying my merchandise, they’re also allowing themselves to empower other people by reading the messages that they’re wearing on their shirts. After that, as you said, company-wise, all this was, like, entrepreneurship, personal branding stuff, but as someone within the company I was seen as a more future leader. I was tapped with having sponsors, not just mentors. Mentors and sponsors are two different things. Mentors are someone that helps you, coaches you, allows you to see what you don’t see as far as what you do on your day to day. A sponsor is someone that sees--I’ll say this at the highest level--sees either you and them and/or they see that you can be someone they can work for, and so they’re gonna do everything they can ‘cause they’re a senior leader, probably a VP or above, to make sure that you succeed. And so I gained sponsors from that TED Talk because they understood my origin story and what I was trying to do, and they’ve been luckily still in my life to this day to ensure that, within my company as a marketer, I’m one of the best marketers I can be, even though I have a pharamacist background and pharmacist trainings. So on multiple levels the TED Talk helped me, but again, all of that started from my understanding of who I was, understanding that I’m privileged, understanding that because of my privilege I have a platform, and because of that platform I have the power to empower other people, not to empower myself, and if I keep that perspective and keep that mentality then I’ll be able to help other people go do what they said that they wouldn’t do and go be what they said feel like they couldn’t be. So yeah.Latricia: You were able to take your personal brand and essentially turn it into an opportunity for yourself, an entrepreneurial opportunity for yourself. So could you speak a little bit about some of your entrepreneurial endeavors? I know you have a trademark for Edo (inaudible). You have One Time for the One Time. Just tell us a little bit about how your brand has turned into, I guess, an opportunity?George: I think for me right now--I know I’m at the, like--if I think about life, I’m right now at the stage right before I’m about to, like, push forward, and it’s funny because I think a lot of people think I’ve probably pushed forward already, but I think right now, from what I see, I’m laying the foundation. So as I build out to just two other things that I’ll talk about briefly--I already mentioned the Message on Merch, the merchandise, which I won’t touch on. I’ll just talk about two other things that empower other people. I’ll talk about the OGO group. I’m lucky enough to have a collection of different friends in different industries, and so when I think of my other frat brother (Cain?), who’s a lawyer, or when I think of another marketer (inaudible) who has no science background and myself, George, who does have a science background, or my brother who’s in architecture, or my other frat brother Cosmo who’s a creator, or Joyce, who quit Lilly--her Lilly corporate job--to sing. In the meantime, in the interim, because she could sing, she started DJing. She was just like, “Hey, you know, I want to start DJing,” and then she starts DJing. Now she’s on tour. Like, these are the people that I’m surrounded with. These are, like, people, like, oh, my gosh. These are great people. So what if we all combined ourselves to help other people and tell our stories? And so that is the origination of the OGO group, and on the surface it is my initials, Osuzuma George Okpamen, but you already know that I’m way smarter than that. OGO, yes, is my initials, but it stands for Opening Great Opportunities, and so I made that an LLC, and that will be the umbrella arm of all of the projects that I do. So one of the pharmacy organizations that I have that’s under that umbrella--it’s a non-profit organization that I’m a co-founder of--is called Pharmacy Initiative Leaders. PILs, and it’s pilsconnect on Instagram, pilsconnect on Twitter, and so in essence that organization is an organization that wants to be the number one resource for all minority pharmacists. We’ll say all pharmacists, but right now we’re focusing on minority pharmacists because we understand that they don’t always have the tools needed to get into the profession, so we want to be that profession that one gets them into the profession, gets them through the profession and allows them to thrive after they graduate and become and get into the professional field itself. We believe--it’s a co-founded group of four people, which we’ll link their names also ‘cause even if I say their names now y’all ain’t gonna know who they are. Bryan, (Onye?), and Josh are my co-founders, and they’re all pharmacists (inaudible). We’re looking to expand our group over the next two to three years to include non-pharmacists too ‘cause that is the beauty of where innovation leads. When we’re able to one empower the pharmacy profession but then also get people who are affected, because people that--the whole United States is affected by healthcare and things of that nature, so how can we add their ideas and inputs into our organization as well? So those are the two big (inaudible) that I’ll be focusing on, and that’s why I want to go to business school, so I can have two years to really focus in and hone in on my foundation, and then, once I come out, super thrive and continue to climb the corporate ladder.Latricia: So I’m going to ask you these questions, and if you could just explain, you know, the difference between a value, a passion, and a superpower as you go through it. So what are your top three values? And, you know, why would you say those are your values?George: I think--so I’m trying to remember--so values, passions, superpowers. Values are something to me--as I’m just thinking about it and internalizing it--as something that really shouldn’t change. It’s internal. Like, it’s your foundation. And there’s different words to say this as well, like for an actual brand of a product, like mission and all of that other stuff, but values, what do you value? What are your core values? And so--and I’m not gonna take the easy way out and say, “Obviously family. God.” Like, those are immovable. So these are, like, the commonsensical ones that I know. Yes, I’m a Christian. Yes, I value my family. Yes, I value God. I think my values--to me, I kind of alluded to them already, so I’m glad that we’re doing this so that we can put it in print. And yes, I would appreciate us redoing this, and you could even put mine. You can put the George Ok whatever on there, but it’ll be dope to your point to help market this and get this out. So my three are privilege, platform, power. I think those are my solid-rock foundations as far as understanding my perspective of me coming from where I came from to where I’m at now to hopefully where I’m going, understanding that with that I have a platform that other people are watching, and because of the privilege I have and the platform that I’m standing on, I have the power to empower other people. And most people, when they hear power and when they hear privilege they think of the negative. No, I’m privileged to be around that, and because of that that platform gives me the visibility to have other people see what I’m doing and where I’m going, and that gives me a responsibility of power to empower other people, not for myself but for others based on that. And so those are my three. Privilege, platform, power. Latricia: Okay, so the next one would be your top three passions.George: Top three passions? And so I’m explaining ‘cause in marketing we have the three customer groups, the C3 approach, and so--this is probably cheating for me ‘cause I’ve thought about this ever since I declared my major as a marketer now. Mines are three C’s. My passions are to create, to curate, and to collaborate. And so when you talk of passions, these are some things you want to do, (inaudible) free. Like, you want to--like, you don’t need to get paid to do these things. Like, you’re so passionate, you’re so fired up, like, you can hear the voice when someone is telling you these things or allows you to do these things. It just--you just feel the fire. Now, do you have to be good at ‘em? You don’t have to necessarily be good at ‘em, but you’re passionate about it or you’re passionate about this cause or this thing. Like, that’s what to me passions are, and so when I think about creating, I love to create, and creating can be anything. It can be creating actual products, it can be creating policies, it can be creating connections, but I love to create. Curating. Curating is really the bringing together, the harnessing of what is already created. And so when you think of--my easiest metaphor for this is a DJ. Like, there are DJs, yes, that make music, and there are DJs that do great stuff like DJ Khaled, but when you think of, like, the fundamental DJ, they’re pretty much--the dope DJs that you know are pretty much curating and mixing different beats and things that’s already been made, so when you hear a Drake beat backdoored with a Kendrick Lamar beat backdoored with a Kanye beat, like, all put together in one, like, that is dope. That is curating, and so that’s the stuff that I like to do. As you think of my group the OGO group, curating different professionals and experiences to bring a better innovative concept on the backend of it. So that’s something I love to do. And then lastly collaborating, and so as you think of collaborating, you’re--it’s almost like two different things are collaborating to make something. So the difference to me between curating and collaborating is curating is bringing together something that’s already made, collaborating is bringing two different ideas to make something new. And so as I think of collaborating with different people just for a little bit or collaborating different ideas or different organizations, those are the things that I’m passionate about doing. So create, curate, collaborate are my three passions.Latricia: And then what are George’s top three superpowers?George: So this one I probably haven’t thought about as much, but if I had to sit and think about my superpowers, like, the thing that always probably jumps out to me, and when I say to me I say to me from other people, is my ability to connect with people, and so that’s whether it’s literally connecting with them, like, as person to person, like my quote unquote networking skills, or when I speak to people, like, literally connecting my story or whatever I’m talking about. It don’t even have to be a story. Connecting a math problem. If I’m gonna do a math problem on the board, I’m not just gonna do a math problem on the board. There’s gonna be a whole story to why I’m even picking the numbers I picked, and I would’ve been intentional on whatever problem that is. And so even just my insight to do that, like, I’m always--like, I never just do anything to do something. Like, I try to connect it to something, and/or because I have such a diverse background if you think about it. A football player who took AP classes who went to the University of Houston who became Greek who went to pharmacy school who became a national officer of the number one minority pharmacy organization who went to the FDA who went to an industry on the East Coast who’s now working in the Midwest? That’s just a lot of diversity there, and so my ability to connect dots--because most of the time people stay in one lane. I’m able to be in so many lanes that I can connect the dots of other lanes because--these people aren’t talking ‘cause they never would’ve thought that they had a connection. Well, y’all do. Y’all really have more alike than y’all don’t, and so my ability to do that is one. The second one would probably be my self-awareness ‘cause I’m very self-aware, and that’s not by accident. I think at SNPhA we were so lucky to where we had a lot of these--every company does it different, but, like, these (inaudible) finder type things, and I did this at a very young age, and I did so many different ones like Myers-Briggs, Strengthsfinder, all these different things to where I continuously found out more and more about myself, and that allowed me to self-reflect and understand when I am or am not doing certain types of things. So I had a really good understanding of myself probably at a very young age in my professional career. So connecting, my self-awareness, and just--the last one I’d say is vision. And so--when I used to say vision back in the day it used to be as a running back. The running back Emmett Smith was my idol growing up. Emmett Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, and all three of those running backs always had vision. But when I talk about it now, it’s more of my vision for the future. If you hear this podcast, you hear about how I’m talking about my family 120 years from now ‘cause I’m literally thinking of that. And so what do I need to do now to make that happen? Or when I scale it back and talk about my marketing plan that we’re launching next year, how do I have thought processes on strategies for next year? But I need to be working on that stuff now for that to happen, and so as I think of my ability to connect, my self-awareness, and my vision, those are things I feel like I do better than a lot of other people, and I think that’s what a superpower is. What do you do better than anybody else? And when you find that out, whatever it is, you triple down on that. There is this theory about, like, do you work on your weaknesses or do you work on what you’re really, really good at? I definitely believe, because of the self-awareness, you’re aware of your weaknesses, and you do do some things to kind of make sure that they’re not something that will derail you and could kill you, but a gift is a gift, and so when you’re gifted, you triple down on those gifts so that you can become LeBron James. You want to be better than anybody else so there is no doubt at whatever that gift superpower is. You do that better than anybody else, ‘cause that’s what’s gonna set you apart, not working on your weaknesses to be just as good as someone. And again, that does not mean to not be aware of your weaknesses, but you want to make sure you do just enough to make sure it doesn’t kill you, but you triple down on your gifts and your superpowers. That’s all. Yep.Latricia: All really good stuff, so we’ll make sure we post your workshop on our Living Corporate page for everyone to see. I really like that. That’s a great way to really break these three different concepts down, so thanks for doing that. So I guess kind of closing off, could you maybe just give some overall advice for someone working on building their personal brand and trying to find a way to make their personal brand work for them?George: I’m really glad we did this podcast. I think, just being real, if you were to just listen to this, ‘cause I’m playing it back in my head, there’s just so many rich content gems, things of that nature, and even from you, Tricia, like, just you being able to ask the certain questions that you’ve asked, I think you’ve done a really, really great job of laying this out and preparing for this opportunity. So I would just really--one not listen to this one time, listen to this a couple of times ‘cause you’ll find what you need, but if you’re fast forwarding and you just want to be able to just take notes, like, really, really quickly, I’d say--and I’m not gonna break this down probably as good as I should if I would’ve thought about it, but just off the dome--the very first thing of personal branding is understanding that it is truly your reputation. So I don’t think that anybody would be happy with having a bad reputation, so understanding mentally that you want to build a--not just a good reputation, a great reputation so that any and everybody that says your name when you’re not there, only great things come out of it. That’s number one. Number two, being self-aware of yourself to understand what are your gifts and superpowers and what are your weaknesses? What are you passionate about? What do you value? What do you want to spend your time on? What does your life look like in in 10, 20 years? What of the people around you? You won’t know that if you don’t spend intentional focused time understanding who you are, what you want, and where you want to be because only then can you actually change that reputation or evolve it or get it better, yeah. The third thing--just to be simple I’ll keep it at three--is to be--and this is a cheat ‘cause it’s two words, but whatever, it’s part of my Message on Merch--to be persistent and consistent. Persistent in resiliency to understand that you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s, a lot of negatives, a lot of, like, things that come your way (inaudible), but push through them and be persistent, but with your brand as well be consistent. No matter if someone’s treating you great or treating you bad, you want to have a consistent reputation that goes over time.Latricia: Just to close out, do you have any shout outs that you’d like to share?George: Yes. We’ll plug these in the bottom, but I would be remiss if I didn’t--I know I shouted ‘em out, but I want to shout ‘em out from a branding perspective--Fighting the Fray, which is my brother’s and my sister-in-law’s--which I really rarely ever call her sister-in-law, but just for everyone who doesn’t know (inaudible) my brother and my sister--my brother and my sister-in-law, his wife Paige, they have a lifestyle blog for young married couples. I also want to shout out to my frat brother (Link?) Cosmo. He was and has been behind me, by my side, since we became brothers, and he always has my back so I always have his. Cosmo is a beast. One of the best graphic designers. He designed my logo. He’s also Edo. Also a big shout out to my big homie (inaudible), who’s doing a lot globally for Nigerians, for Edos, and for business in general. And so just to keep it simple we’ll keep it those three, but also just to give you three people that another--from a personal branding standpoint, things to look at. Courtney Brand does an amazing job of not just lifestyle blogging, financial blogging, also marketing in her own right, she’s one of my (inaudible). Courtney, she’s amazing. So for ladies and guys, she does an amazing job of helping to build brands. So Courtney Brand, we’re gonna tag her in there. Tobe Nwigwe. He’s gonna be the next biggest--if he’s already not the biggest superstar in the states. He’s from (inaudible) Texas, as he would say, but he does an amazing job of marketing, branding, and he’s obviously gifted and talented with words, but again, he doesn’t just use his words as it. He’s helping to empower the youth and (inaudible) his words as well. So Courtney, Tobe, and then just two people that are superstars. Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk, and Eric Thomas, who actually Tobe is an artist of. Those are people who also are great personal branders, financial people, real estate, things of that nature, and yeah. With those people (inaudible) in the links, I think you’ll get a great flavor and a really diverse background and perspective of how to market yourself, brand, be and have a great reputation on multiple (inaudible), but each one of the people I’ve named are also really great people.Latricia: Thank you for sharing that, George. We’ll make sure we link everyone’s social media pages down below. I’ve personally--maybe I follow everyone that you just listed and I don’t even know them personally, but because they had such strong brands I found all of them really interesting. So yeah, I’ll definitely make sure we share that in the description box in the blog. Thank you so much, George, for coming on here and just being open and honest and giving us really tactical advice. I think a lot of people can take so much from this. Personal branding, it may seem like a soft topic, but it is so important when it comes to growing in your career. It’s not enough to just have, you know, experience on your resume or to have good grades in school or to just get the job. You want to be able to grow in your career, so really developing that brand that people can connect to is gonna take you really far. So thank you so much, George. We really appreciate you for taking the time out to talk to us today.George: Thank you, and thank you to the creators of this podcast. Again, I’m privileged to be on it. Great job creating this, and I love the content that you guys are doing on all the multiple levels and platforms, so I’m looking forward to staying engaged and connected, and I’m proud of you.Latricia: Thank you.Zach: So, Latricia, that was a great interview. What were some of your key takeaways from y’all’s conversation?Latricia: Yeah, that really was a great discussion. I learned a lot, but the major takeaway from me would be the importance of building an authentic personal brand story, key word being authentic.Zach: For me, the biggest takeaway was the self-promotion and the importance of turning your story into a well-recognized brand. So it’s so easy when you talk about yourself it just almost sounds like just a hodgepodge of facts and figures as opposed to weaving it into some type of coherent narrative, and the interview with you and George, it resonated for me in that regard because I can really clearly hear and understand the story that he was presenting.Latricia: Right, that’s so important. Like, we really need to make sure that we’re promoting ourselves, right? It’s one thing to have your story, but how are you making sure that your story is heard by, you know, the right people?Zach: Before we get into Favorite Things, we’re going to introduce a new segment called Listener Letters. This is where we read and respond to your emails on the show. Today we have a letter from Just Jonesin who writes, “I’m the only person of color on my team, surprise surprise. Because of this, I already feel like as if all of my actions are under a microscope, especially my social media use, in this case Twitter. My profile isn’t private because I don’t feel like I have anything to hide, but I know that one of my coworkers is tweetwatching because she referenced something I tweeted one day. How do you all approach social media and the boundaries in terms of your job and coworkers? I don’t want to hold back on how I express myself online, but I also know this coworker is known to, quote, run and tell it. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Just Jonesin.” Latricia, what are your thoughts here?Latricia: I think this is a good listener letter for the show because it’s--I mean, social media is a part of you, so anything that you put out there on social media in some way will reflect your brand. So your social media accounts don’t have to be strictly professional. I think it is important to be who you are, and some people may think, you know, “A recruiter is gonna look at my social media account, and if they see that, you know, I went to a party or, you know, I went to Vegas on vacation that, you know, I may not be a good fit for the role,” which is not true. Like, they want to know that you have a life. So I think, you know, in terms of--so I think in terms of how Just Jonesin uses her account is perfectly fair. You don’t have to change who you are or feel like you can’t express yourself. Continue to do that because that’s who you are, but understand that anything you put out can be used to judge you, so what are you willing to be judged by? So that’s really important. Me personally, my personal philosophy, I try to not add my coworkers on social media just because I need my space, and sometimes you just need to be able to draw the line between your professional life and your personal life, and I know that that line gets kind of blurry sometimes, and people can still find me on social media, so I’m just, you know, ready for, you know, whatever questions people may have, whatever people are ready to throw at me, you know, I’m ready for it with my social media.Zach: No, that’s a good point. I actually--I 100% agree with everything you shared, right? So, like, for me, when it comes to me on social media, you know, I don’t--my tweets aren’t protected, my IG is not private, anything like that. I don’t go around and tell all my coworkers, “Hey, this is my @. Hit me up,” but my IG is fire actually, so it’s @ (inaudible) on Instagram. My photos are heat rock. So IG is fire, follow it, but back to this. I don’t really believe in necessarily filtering myself on social media. Like, Latricia, you just said, you know, when you put content out there, be ready to kind of speak to, and are you comfortable being judged by your content? And I am, so if someone sees something that I tweet and they go, “Hey, Zach, you said this,” da-da-da-da, I’m fine with that, or really how I think about it is “Am I comfortable reading these tweets out loud to the CEO of the company I work for?” And the answer is yes, right? If the answer is no, then I probably don’t tweet it. I probably don’t post it on Facebook because ultimately it’s the internet, and even if you have all your stuff locked up and private it’s going to get out, right? So some of it I think has to do with how comfortable you are with yourself because regardless of how kind of sensitive or private you try to be, trust me, they be out here finding Beyonce’s private and secret accounts. They definitely can find your stuff, you know what I’m saying?Latricia: I liked your point about, you know, using that as a--taking that and using it as an opportunity. Okay, you’re under a microscope, so shine. Like, use it as a platform.Zach: You might as well just go ahead and shine because you’re either gonna post some boring stuff that they’re gonna stare at or you’re gonna post some heat rock that they’re gonna stare at. Don’t take it as a negative. Flip it on ‘em and use it for your own benefit. This person who wrote this, she recognizes that. Just leverage it.Latricia: I agree with everything you just said. Now it’s time for Favorite Things, so I can go ahead and kick it off. My favorite thing right now is home cooking. I’m a consultant. I travel 100% of the time, so a majority of my meal are covered by my clients, so I’m not used to spending money on food. I’m not used to cooking. I mean, I joke about it all the time, and I probably, you know, up until now haven’t lit a stove in, like, a year. Zach: Wow.Latricia: It’s pretty bad. So I’m taking a little break right now, and I’ve been home for the last couple of weeks, and so I’m trying to get adjusted to a normal lifestyle, and I started cooking again, and I forgot how good home cooking was. But I do hate the grocery store so I’m gonna try out either Amazon Fresh or some other type of online grocery shopping. So if any of y’all do online grocery shopping, hit me up and let me know how that’s been working out for you because I hate the grocery store. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Well, see, the thing about it is--it’s funny. So this would be a great insert for, I don’t know, an ad, right? Like a plug. So, you know, just saying. Like, companies, if y’all are listening to us, holla at your boy. Like, we got a whole captive millennial audience here, plenty of tech consultants and professionals who listen to this podcast, all of them who struggle to cook just like Latricia does. So if you’re listening to this and you’re looking for somebody to help plug your company that sells food, easy-to-cook stuff, just get at your boy. Just get at me.Latricia: Just let us know.Zach: Let us know. Anyway… okay, okay, okay. So that was your favorite thing, cool stuff. Let me go ahead and go off the grid a little bit here, okay? My favorite thing this week is actually an excerpt from a farewell email that I read in a group meet, okay? Farewell letters, for those who don’t know, are usually shared with coworkers to let them know you’re leaving your current job. So you send your resignation in. The resignation email is fairly formal, whatever. Your farewell email, your farewell letter, is a little bit more informal, a little bit more friendly or whatever you want to call it, but even in that most people still use the standard format. You know, they give thanks for the opportunity. They share your sadness or your mixed emotions about leaving the job, and they sign off with their personal contact information. Even though it’s a little more informal and can even be kind of friendly, it’s still fairly static… but this one right here was completely unorthodox, dare I say savage, and outright impeccable. Okay? It was flawlessly written. It was inspirational. Here’s the excerpt right here, okay? “Hi, y’all. Closing the door because others are open. You have my number, hit my line and pick a side. Nicki Minaj voice.” They wrote that in the parentheses. “Also, keep your grass cut low so that you can see the snakes coming. Bars.”Latricia: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] “Thank you so much for this journey.”Latricia: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. “Bury me in the ocean with my--”Latricia: Oh, no. Not the fake quote.Zach: The fake Killmonger quote... [laughs]Latricia: Killmonger. No! [laughs]Zach: “Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors that jumped from the ship because they knew death was better than bondage.” Latricia: Wakanda forever!Zach: Wakanda forever. Latricia: [laughs]Zach: Then she adds two exclamation points and she says, “I did it. #DropMics, #WakandaForever, #Psalms91. Sound Man, you gotta give me something. Give me the No Frauds-type beat so we don’t get sued, but give me something. This is crazy. My gosh. Latricia, how do you… like--Latricia: I can’t. I can’t right now. I cannot right now, Zach. Zach: [laughs]Latricia: Whoever wrote this just took me to church with that last hashtag. So for my Christian believers out there, we all know--you missed the preacher man in case y’all didn’t know. Zach is Mr. Preacher Man.Zach: [laughs]Latricia: For all my Christian believers out there, we all know how deep Psalms 91 gets. The Lord--this ain’t quoting it, this is from my heart. The Lord is your protector, and he will deliver you from ANY form of evil.Zach: [laughs]Latricia: Clearly they ain’t worried about nobody, and you will prosper, and there’s no reason to have fear of any man, and the writer made that very clear with this honest farewell.Zach: [laughs]Latricia: And, you know, whoever wrote this must have really been going through it at their job.Zach: Right. Right.Latricia: And they just made, like, the ultimate come-up. Like, the next check I’m just hoping is just like--Zach: I pray the next check is very large for them.Latricia: I hope. I really hope. I really hope it’s large, and I really hope they got security at their next job.Zach: This is the thing, right? So, you know, we’re talking about personal brand, this may not be the way that you want to brand yourself. Latricia: Probably not.Zach: But it is funny, okay?Latricia: It’s really funny.Zach: It’s very funny, and this is the thing. Like, on a kind of semi-serious note, right? So this email was sent to a small group of people, but remember, guys, it’s on the internet.Latricia: [laughs]Zach: So someone who was on the CC line forwarded it to one of their friends and then forwarded it to another friend, and then somehow it got to little ol’ Zach, who I know that I don’t know the person who wrote this, right? But anyway, very funny. Shout out to them. Welp, I think that does it for us on the show today.Latricia: What a way to end it.Zach: What a way to end the show. Shout out to my man or my woman. Psalms 91, Wakanda forever, and dropped the mic. I will not drop this particular mic because we need these mics, but yes--Latricia: They’re really expensive.Zach: They’re very expensive, but I am dropping the mic with this person in spirit. Okay, guys, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And I think that does it for us on the show. My name is Zach.Latricia: And I’m Latricia.Zach/Latricia: Peace.Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In our second B-side episode, Parin and Ola field questions from you and generally discuss the topics covered from our show about leveraging higher ed and thinking #beyondthebag. Length: 13:01Host: Parin, OlaTRANSCRIPTOla: Hey, I'm Ola.Parin: Hi, I'm Parin.Ola: And this is our first B-Side episode.Parin: Bimpe, do you want to tell us a little bit about what a B-Side episode is gonna be?Ola: Yeah. A B-Side episode is kind of a response to our latest episode, and it's gonna be shorter, more casual, and we're gonna talk about some feedback that we got from our listeners.Parin: Absolutely, and I want to start out by saying we had a fantastic latest episode, and we're super excited to be able to address some of the comments and feedback that we got.Ola: Yeah, let's dive in. Parin: Our latest episode was Beyond the Bag: Leveraging Higher Education In Your Career.Ola: Yeah, and Zach and Ade had a guest speaker, Richard Odior, and they spoke about kind of how higher education may be a way to get a higher salary but actually have a lot more benefits than that. So let's get to our questions.Parin: Absolutely. And so one of the first questions we had come in is "What exactly is the bag? Is it a specific income level, quality of life, or socioeconomic status?"Ola: Yeah, and I think for this one--at least when I heard that question I was thinking, "Well, the bag is whatever you want it to be." It's just kind of your personal outlook. What did you think?Parin: I would have to agree with you. I think the bag is whatever you make it. For some people, that might just be, you know, a certain threshold salary-wise. It might be, like, a standard of living that they, you know, aspire to achieve. The bag really is whatever you define it to be. Ola: Right? And I think on some levels we're talking about, like, having that basic level of income that you feel comfortable with, but beyond that, what your aspirations are, what your passions are, and how you can kind of achieve those.Parin: Absolutely, absolutely. Agreed. I guess another interesting question that we had come in--and Bimpe, feel free to jump in on this one--it is regarding where the expectation of attending college comes from. Because, again, in the episode, you know, we were constantly about education and sort of how education ultimately feeds into, you know, I guess a good salary. But do you want to jump in on that one?Ola: Yeah, for sure. Whenever I think of expectation of attending college, I just think of my parents and my grandparents and just this idea that, like, they were all educators for the most part, or at least my grandparents on my mom's side were educators. A principal, principals of two different schools, and then my mom is an academic dean. My dad is a professor. So I grew up around the context of higher education, so that was the normal. They all have multiple degrees, so I'm the slacker with my mere one. [laughs] So personally for me it comes more from my parents than it ever did from, like, school or outside pressures at all.Parin: Yeah. I think it varies from person to person kind of depending on your background. I'd have to kind of, you know, say my expectation definitely came from my family. I'm also kind of, like, the slacker. Everyone's got, like, multiple degrees, lots of academics, but I--Ola: Yeah. [laughs] We're, like, business consultants and we're slacking. Anyway.Parin: [laughs] Yeah, we are completely, like, the bottom of the food chain with that one. [laughs] But I also know kind of--like, the education system does kind of build you up to attend college. Like, it's kind of like you go to school to attend college. Like, you've got all those SAT and ACT prep classes, you know? It just kind of seems like a societal norm at this point.Ola: Right, and I feel like sometimes it's more that--like, some schools get judged based on the amount of their graduates that attend college, so--you know, if you're being goal-oriented, that can--that is at least something that's measurable as far as outcomes. So I think it's also, like, this new wave of, like, more people going to college because, you know, the middle class in America is growing, and more of us see college as necessary. I mean, even when--I know people who had to get degrees to be bank tellers. That wasn't the case so many years ago, so it kind of makes sense that now we're expecting the baseline to be college instead of high school.Parin: For sure, for sure. And that's absolutely not to say that college is determinate of your success in life, but that also segues into our next question, which is what is the true value of an education beyond a means of financial security? So basically, is there any point in doing all of this, you know, spending on college besides, you know, getting a good job or, you know, getting a certain level of salary?Ola: Yeah. I mean, I really like that question because I've always thought of education beyond financial security because growing up I didn't really think about financial security, luckily. So when I think of education now, I think about the community that I've been able to build and, you know, just having an audience with all of the alumni from my gigantic school that is, like, completely amazing. Shout out to UW Madison. Badgers. [laughs] But we're everywhere, Badgers are everywhere, and I feel like--and I have seen, like, going to a new city and not knowing what to do and just reaching out to the local Badger community and having people advise me and talk with me. Not even career-wise, but, like, how to find an apartment, how to, you know, navigate what the best grocery stores are and that sort of thing. So there's this beautiful community that comes out of it, and that for me is, like, one of the main benefits. Parin: Right. So you're mostly alluding to, like, the social experience, kind of?Ola: Yeah, yeah.Parin: Yeah, absolutely. And I'd have to agree. I mean, for one, college or school in itself is a social experience. I mean, you're building, you know, lifelong relationships, but I don't know if anyone else agrees or kind of feels that. I think education--like, I actually went to school to learn stuff, whether or not that--[laughs] whether or not that is actually being used in, like, you know, my day-to-day job is another story.Ola: [laughs] I was about to say "I learned things, but I don't know where they went."Parin: You know? And there's certain things I wouldn't have learned unless I went to college, and guaranteed you can probably teach yourself most things, but on top of the social experience there's definitely, like, other things that you learn as a person. Like, you learn to be independent. Like, I know for a lot of people, like, going to college, that's, like, your first time out in the real world, and you just learn all these, I guess, life skills [inaudible].Ola: Mm-hmm. In a kind of safe environment too.Parin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.Ola: Compared to, like, being out there as, like, an 18-year-old, which is scary and dangerous.Parin: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's very scary. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's what I would say the true value of an education is. I mean, different people look at it differently. For some people it's a--you know, a stop on the path to financial security. For other people, it's really for the experience.Ola: Yeah, agreed. Well, those were great questions. Let's move on to our Favorite Things.Parin: Oh, this is my favorite part of the B-Sides, and I'm super excited to share my Favorite Things, but Bimpe, how about you tell us what your Favorite Things are so far or currently trending?Ola: Okay. I have two things. First is the book "Well, That Escalated Quickly" by Francesca Ramsey, and Francesca Ramsey is someone I've followed on the internet, on YouTube, for a long time, and first she had natural hair videos where she was showing how to design her locks and kind of do funky styles with them. And I've never had locks, but I always had [inaudible] so I started to experiment from that. And then she kind of blew up on the internet, and what she's talking about in her book is memoirs and mistakes of an accidental activist. So coming into this space where you're listened to about social issues and knowing how to handle that with tact and, you know, retaining your own sanity. So I went to kind of the book launch, her book tour, in D.C., and it was packed. It was, you know, standing room only. People were so excited, and I met people in line for the book signing that, you know, had also followed her since the early lock video days. And it was a really great event, and I loved seeing her. Yeah, so that's, like, number one Favorite Thing. Everyone should go buy the book. Make her a New York Times bestseller, okay? She deserves. She deserves.Parin: Yes, she really does. I was so sad I couldn't make it. It looked like a fantastic event.Ola: Yeah, no, it was really great. And then second Favorite Thing is just kind of those moments where you can measure your progress. So I had a few moments like that this week, and for me it's been a great week. I think on Monday I realized that, like, I had lost 40 pounds since Thanksgiving...Parin: Yes, girl.Ola: Thank you. [laughs] Also this week I found out I got promoted, and that was, you know, something that I worked really hard for and just, like, stayed in my case, and so I am--my Favorite Thing is feeling those moments where you can look back and kind of track your progress and see that you are growing, even if every day doesn't feel like it.Parin: Absolutely. Oh, my God. Congratulations on the promotion and on the 40 pound drop. Just black girl magic out here. Yes.Ola: [laughs] Yes, yes. Excellence [inaudible]. Thank you.Parin: [laughs] I guess my Favorite Things are not really--they're not that serious. It's finally summer, y'all, so I'm really, really excited to be out there not wearing a jacket. But for someone like me who's got a bunch of hair going on, I am really having headwraps right now. It's super convenient. Like, I don't know if everyone can rock those specifically, like in corporate settings, but I work remotely so your girl can just rock headwraps all day every day. I'm really loving them. Then my second favorite place--and Bimpe, you can literally, like, talk about this 'cause we were right there two days ago--is The Coupe in D.C. Shout out. Y'all, this place is great just to sit down, get a meal, you know, get your work done, and, you know, if you stay long enough you can segue into the bar. [laughs]Ola: Didn't we move positions, like, two or three times? We, like, kept getting up and moving to different tables. We're like, "Okay, now we're going to move into this middle section." "Now we're going to move to the bar section." We were there for, like, eight hours.Parin: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They had all my coins. They can have all my coins all day. Great place to work, network. You know, just--you know, love it. Love it. Shout out, y'all. Keep doing what you do. But yeah, that's it from us. Thank you guys for listening in, and stay tuned for our new episode coming out soon.Ola: All right, thanks. Bye, guys.Parin: Thanks. Bye, guys.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In our first B-side episode, we sit down with creative entrepreneur Deun Ivory and discuss her current projects and her thoughts on Living Corporate's mission. Length: 00:19:23Host: ZachDeun Ivory Contact:http://www.deunivory.me/https://www.instagram.com/deunivory/Shout outs: Luvvie https://www.instagram.com/luvvie/?hl=enBlack Girl In Om: https://www.instagram.com/blackgirlinom/?hl=enAlex Elle: https://www.instagram.com/alex_elle/?hl=enHanahana Beauty: https://www.instagram.com/hanahana_beauty/?hl=enAdrienne Raquel: https://www.instagram.com/adrienneraquel/?hl=enCrwn Magazine: https://www.instagram.com/crwnmag/?hl=enTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up y’all? Welcome to Living Corporate B-sides. So B-sides are essentially random shows we have in between our larger shows. These are much less structured, and somehow, even more lit, if you can believe it or not, than our regularly scheduled shows. Now you may ask “What do you mean by more lit, Zach?” Now watch this - sound man, give the them horns. [air horns] Zach: See what I’m saying?  For these shows it may just be the Living Corporate team talking about the last episode and more recent events. It may be one of us, it might be three of us, or we may have a 1 on 1 with  special guest to talk about their perspective on the latest topic on our show and plug their stuff… you know, just kick it. The guest may be a corporate professional, they may be an entrepreneur, who knows? Right? They may even one of the fastest rising stars in the world of creatives, especially around holistic wellness for black women. Yes, we have her here folks: Deuncye AKA Deunbra AKA “momma, there go that woman” AKA D.I. AKA your fave photographer’s fave photographer, AKA kween, AKA “whoa why you do em like that sis?” AKA Essence AKA Crwn Mag AKA VSCO Vixen AKA I’m saved but don’t push me AKA “whoaaa is that her?” on the poster at your apple store AKA IG Influencer AKA your intern wishes they could work for HER! Y”all! *the* DEUN IVORY! What’s up Deun? Deun: [laughs] Oh. My God. You are literally a boost. You are literally a boost. Oh my god, I am completely done, I’m about to fly out of here. That was - wow. That was an amazing introduction. I feel great! Zach: I’m really glad. So off top, major love to Deun because she was actually encouraging me to start Living Corporate like last year and she been told me I should be doing podcasts. For those who don’t know you, Deun, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Deun: Yes absolutely, so once again my name is Deun Ivory and I am a creative entrepreneur AKA a woman who does the most. I am a photographer, I’m an illustrator, I’m an art director for Black Girl in Om, which is the number one platform for women of color on their wellness journey. I do brand consulting and  brand design for women of color who start their own businesses. I’m an influencer, I do brand partnerships, I do a little bit of modeling. Ooh lord, it’s just- I mean the list goes on and on. Like, I do a lot and I really love what I do because it’s primarily focused on how I can help black women thrive. How I can help black women live their best lives and be unapologetically themselves. So I affirm you, I love on you, I celebrate you through a series of creative practices and I love it and I feel like I am created to do this  work that I’m doing. So yeah. Zach: So Deun, we’ve talked about the fact that your space is holistic wellness for black women, right? So talk to me about what it looks like to be mindful of yourself and to take care of yourself and to practice wellness within, let’s just say, like the corporate context. Like if I’m sitting at my desk and I’m stressed out. I got a funky email or someone’s really riding my back -- What are some  practical tips that you could give us around just taking care of yourself? Deun: Yes, so one thing that I think is really really important is to be mindful of the breath, which is something that we highlight all the time in Black Girl in Om. Like breathing easy? What does that mean? What does that look like? And I think that a lot of time we aren’t aware of how important a breath is. Like when you’re angry, you know your heart is racing, you’re breathing really fast, you’re just really upset, you know? And sometimes it’s good to just sit and meditate. In meditation? You are focused on breathing in and breathing out. You are bringing your focus to this one thing, which is breathing in and breathing out. And within that sitting still, that time of sitting still and breathing in and breathing out, exhaling, right? Inhaling love, exhaling anger. Inhaling growth, exhaling whatever it is that you’re trying to release. You kind of become more balanced and grounded in your own space. You’re able to think more clearly without being driven by emotion, y’know? So I think it’s a beautiful practice and beautiful space to create because you can access it or do it anywhere. You don’t have to pay any money for it, you know, god gave you this breath, use it, be mindful, be aware of it, and meditate as much as you can. And that can be for two minutes. Breathing in and breathing out. What do I want to release, what do I want to I want to bring in, you know. Kind of like aligning yourself with how you want to feel. So, that is  one thing. Journaling is so important because it’s a brain dump. And I think it’s really important to release, especially - I was talking about this with a friend today - black people internalize so much, right? And I think it’s important that we begin to externalize, you know? I mean obviously don’t do anything that’s gonna harm other people, which is why you can turn to writing. You know, you can write out your feelings, try to get to the root of why you may feel a certain way about something. Writing is so important for your self-care journey because you’re able to keep track of like who you are, where you are, how do you feel at this moment, okay? How can I realistically and practically get to this next level or this next whatever in my growth. Also gratitude.  Gratitude is something that is talked about a lot because it’s  so powerful. When you just sit and you really just immerse yourself in the blessings that surround you, you can change your mindset and perceive things differently, and look at things just like god trying to show you something.  Or you may be mindful of the fact that you are living in abundance despite the fact that you may be lacking this or might be lacking that. Yeah so I would say meditation and breath, journaling, and gratitude. Zach: Man those are great answers. And it’s funny, you said it at the beginning but you’re absolutely right. The tips, the advice that you’re providing here- it’s free! All it takes is intentionality and making sure that you actually do those things, but it’s not like I need to go sign up for something way out here. Deun: RightZach: That’s really cool, and I think it’s funny because the other point you made around us internalizing things like black people we do internalize things like as a culture. And when I talk to other people, like other minorities, those experiences are not so exclusive to us, right? So I think that’s really good advice. Man, thank you for that. Deun: Definitely! I’m happy to have shared it. Zach: I love your story and I’m excited because we’re really just still at the beginning of it. Now I know you’re not in Corporate America, but you have friends who are and you’ve done partnerships with actual Corporations, so it’s not like you’re completely alien to the concept of Corporate America. I know that you have been listening to Living Corporate, can you kinda talk to me about how you feel about the show so far?Deun: Yes absolutely! I mean when you first brought this idea to me, I was like “hey, this is definitely a space that needs to be created” because there are black people who, you know, have these narratives that need to be shared about their experiences in the corporate world and from my understanding, there was no space like this, especially for black millennials! So I think that this is very beautiful, very necessary, very transformative. I feel like it’s a safe space for people to feel like ‘I can come here and talk about everything that I’ve gone through and help other individuals who work in corporate america get through what they’re going through’. And although I have the blessing of not working in corporate america, you know, like you said, I do know a lot women, and work with them often through Black Girl in Om, to talk about being in corporate spaces where they’re the only black woman, and you know, they need to know like “how do I practice meditation? How can I cultivate a self care practice?” It’s all necessary, it’s all connected, and I’m happy to help in any way that I can and I’m so happy that you guys have created this space. Zach : Man, thank you for the love, Deun! And straight up, this is heartwarming, it really is. The thing about it is, it’s just so funny that because of the space that you engage and some of the work that we’re doing. So we actually have a show coming up in a couple weeks around mental wellness in corporate america, so what I’m really excited about as we get that show going is really pointing people to some of the resources and some of the things you’ve been doing, right? That you’ve been working on around wellness and just holistic wellness for in your case, specifically black women, but I think a lot of the things you actually create will be helpful for any non-white person in majority white spaces, right? And so when you think about what we’re doing is we’re trying to, to your point, create that safe space and beyond a  safe space, a courageous space. Like for people to really lean in and be themselves, and to be affirmed and built up. So for those who don’t know, we’re in Houston, we’re in my home. We are in my abode Deun [laughs] Okay. Zach: And I noticed, I’m looking around, and I see art, right? And for those who don’t know, I’ve been a fan. I’ve been a Deun fan. Deun: This is true Zach: Right, and I’m looking around and I’m looking at artwork adorning my walls and it just leads me to ask, you know, who was your first true blue client? Who was  your first client? Deun: You are so extra. YOU, Zachary Nunn, was my first client. And I thank you so much. You had me design a custom illustration for you and your beautiful wife, and man, you know, that really just started something special. Because, I mean I really started poppin then, people were like coming to me, requesting me, and it was amazing, so thank you! Zach: [laughs] Self serving on my side for sure, and jokes and stuff aside, I want to thank you for taking the time to sit down with me today. And I know you’re busy, right? So talk to us about what you got going on right now. Get your rounds off. Like, what are some of the brands that you’ve worked with, who are the favorite celebrities, I know that I saw recently that you worked with Luvvie, but just talk to us about some of the things that you’ve got going on and some of the things that you’ve recently completed. Deun: Right, so like I told y’all from jump, I always have a lot going on, and I’m just so blessed and so eternally grateful for that. Speaking on previous achievements or goals  or whatever you want to call them, I was featured in Essence in their April issue for Black Girl in Om, which is really really beautiful. If you have not been to an Apple store, you need to go their right now because you will see my face and my work shown all throughout the display monitors, on the phones, on the little gallery wall, on the iPads, all of that good stuff. And so that was really beautiful too because I was reached out to by the creative director of Today at Apple personally, who told  me that he was a really huge fan of my work and I was like “dang, this is crazy!” You know, so he had me create and curate these beautiful images on my iphone, and so I had a chance to put my friends on, you know, and so they’re in this international campaign which is crazy, and my self portraits! So that was really beautiful. And recently I became one of VSCO Voices grant recipients and I’m gonna be taking on this 6-month project about sexual abuse within a marginalized community, specifically black women. And that is a story that is very personal to me because I too am a woman who is now thriving in the aftermath of such a traumatic event. So that’s something that I am currently doing right now and yes I did have a chance to shoot Luvvie for the cover of this magazine with Design Sponge that will be coming out really soon. I have some amazing things in the works for Black Girl in Om, you know we have some retreats popping off, some live podcasts, I’m going to be doing my first keynote address at a photo conference in Palm Springs next year in 2019. Be sure to follow me on instagram and I will keep you updated with tickets and all of that.I mean, I don’t even know. Literally the list could go on and on and on, but those are some of the major projects that I’m doing, and I’m so excited about them, so. Yeah, that’s what I got going on. Zach: That’s really cool, so you know, you said something about your Instagram,  so where can people connect with you? Where can they buy your art? Where can they engage with you further? Deun: Yes, absoutely, so you can follow me on instagram @deunivory. I’m on that on instagram, I’m also on that on Twitter, and Black Girl in Om, you should follow us on instagram as well because we curate and create amazing experiences and art Zach: yes  y’all do Deun: Thank you. Oh yeah, I have another baby, Ivory and Ashe Life on Instagram which is a company that I founded with Lauren Ashe who is also the founder of Black Girl in Om. It’s like a mindfulness goods brand for women of color. And Hello G&G which is an activation series that I just started with my friend Abena Boamah, who is the founder of Hanahana Beauty. If you are in need of some lotion that’s gon get you your entire life, and have you glowing and shining like none other, you need to check out Hanahana Beauty on instagram. So I know those were a lot of handles, but I got a lot going on, and I’m pretty sure you’re going to be receiving so much beauty and affirmation from all of these platforms. Zach: Oh absolutely, and you know, I can specifically vouch for - well fist of all, Black Girl in Om is super dope. I visit your website, I visit your IG page all the time, beautiful work there. And then also I can vouch for Hanahana Beauty because I’ve actually met Abena a couple months  ago, and she gave me some of her cocoa butter. Deun: The shea butter Zach: The Shea butter, excuse me, that’s  right the shea butter and it was fire Deun: yeah! Zach: Yes my fingers were very very supple Deun: HA! Zach: My skin was lustrious Deun: [laughs] that’s literally - yes, like that’s what it is, it’s just what it is. And she’s been featured in essence and numerous other platforms because this  stuff- it’s the truth. Zach: So the thing about it is - this  is our inaugural kick off for our b-sides but eventually we definitely want you, Abena, Lauren Ashe, we could make it just like a Black Girl in Om party because we really want to talk about entrepreneurship while being other, and you know, like you guys have really burst on the scene, and yall -  the space that you guys are inhabiting, you guys are really rocking that domain Deun: Thank you! Zach: No problem, I mean, thank y’all. Let’s do this- before we kinda wrap it up, do you have any more shout outs? Deun: I wanna shout out to everybody! I mean relationships are such an integral part of my success, for one. You know, I would not be here if god had not blessed me with the relationships I have with these phenomenal black women who are intelligent and brilliant and who celebrate me and have shown me how to celebrate others. So definitely my creative partners Lauren Ashe and  Abena Boamah, my best friend in the whole wide world, Victoria Banjo. My good friends in Houston, you know Eunice and Selma and Unique and everybody from Good Hope, my amazing husband Eric Michael Ward, who is also an amazing photographer and is the reason why I’m in photography now. He’s so dope. Oh my god, who else? Alex Elle for really just trusting me to create her logo and allowing me to be on her podcast, which gave me great exposure and also the reason why I have so many clients and you know, people who kinda know me, yknow, I’m grateful for that. And Sarad at Essence for reaching out to Lauren and I for the Essence cover, well not Essence cover, but you know, I’m manifesting that- Zach: Yes, c’mon Deun: -for the Essence Feature. Crwn Magazine for always putting us  on, if y’all need to be in the know of like a black magazine that caters to black women, our hair, our experiences, Crwn Mag, C-R-W-N. They are legit. Adrian Rochelle who is another phenomenal black woman. Just-- Brilliant! Ahead of her time. Please follow her on Instagram, she’s amazing. If I have missed you, please know it is  not on purpose. Okay, I just came back from a memorial party, it was real lit, I was eatin real good and I’m tired, but know that I love you and I mean well. But thank you to everybody who has been supportive, who has loved on me and shown me support and held me accountable and also been very honest with me from the jump, so. Yes, those are my shout outs. Zach: Dope, well, we’ll make sure to include all the @’s and links for all that you’ve referenced so that folks can make sure to connect with you. Definitely shout out to you ma’am, shout out to your wonderful husband, E-Mike, who is  my best friend, right? Best man at my wedding. Shout out to LaurenAsh and Abenah and HanaHana and Grow & Glow, and shout out to Black Girl In Om! Deun: yes! Zach: Okay, well look, I think that might do it. I think that does us for the show. Again, guys this is our first b-side, these are just gonna be loose,laid back, more fun episodes, and you can kinda meet friends of the show and kind of just get to know some of the hosts and some of our guests. You know, we don’t typically do it like this on the regular shows, but Deun would you mind signing us off?Deun:... okay! [laughs] alright, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through.  If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. Once again, my name is Deun Ivory! Zach: my name is Zach, peace!

In this episode, Zach and Ade discuss the role of education and building wealth with Accenture senior strategy consultant, Richard Odior.Length: 00:33:33Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTAde: “Research and public policy have traditionally focused on education and income as drivers of upward mobility. There is compelling evidence, however, that education alone does little to explain the source of different levels of economic well-being, especially across race. Observing an association between higher levels of educational attainment and higher levels of net wealth and concluding that education produces wealth is tantamount to observing an association between the presence of umbrellas during rainfalls and concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. It's more likely that the relative wealth of different races explains the educational attainment differences across race groups.” This excerpt is from “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans” a joint report between The New School, Duke Center for Social Equality, and Insight, a non-profit research entity. What does this mean for people of color trying to secure the bag? What role, if any, does education play in affecting our income? And if education alone won’t secure the bag, what will? Hi, my name is Ade. And this is Living Corporate.Ade: So today, we’re talking about greenery. Cheese. To be more specific, we're talking about paper, stacks, racks, looseleaf, guap, benjamins, all that. Zach: So we're talking about money? Ade: Mhmm, getting to the bag. More specifically and more to the point of this show, what role, if any, does education plays a role in securing said bag. Zach: You know, this is a great topic, I'm really excited that we're talking about it. Because I know for me growing up, education was a big deal. It was a big deal for its own sake because my mom is a principal now and before that, she was an English teacher. Butt off top she told me, look, the expectation is for you to get a Masters. We didn’t even talk about me going to college because we knew that we were going to college, no joke. I didn’t even walk for my undergrad degree. Not because I don’t believe college matters, but because it was so much the expectation. Ade: Same here - it wasn’t even a spoken thing, my family just expected me to go to college. You need to go to college to get a job and you need a job to get money so it was an automatic thought process there. Zach: Right, and to be honest I just figured the more education you got, the more money you’d make. But as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that isn’t always the case. Ade: Well, to keep it real for a second, how many people do we know who, at the barest minimum, have a bachelor's degree, but have not secured the bag?And before we go any further, this is certainly not to disparage anybody with a bachelor's degree under their belt, or who have terminal degrees. This is just a process of trying to understand what the secret sauce is. Listen, if there's a formula, somebody needs to put me on. I was on Fishbowl, which is, for those who don't know, it's an anonymous posting app for consultants and there were just so many different stories and conversations going on around compensation that I've never been exposed to before. And it’s even more unbelievable because that study I referenced at the top of the show, again it's called “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans”, it calls out  median wealth by education level, and it shows a disparity between black and white families- where Black families with a post baccalaureate have a combined wealth of 84k white families at the same level have a combined wealth of almost 300k. The numbers get even more bleak with fewer years of education. Zach: Right, and I appreciate you sharing this data. It's a great report "Umbrellas don't make it rain", we'll make sure to have it in the actual show description but I look at those numbers myself like “HOW SWAY? HOW!!” How is that possible?!  The thing about it is, though, neither one of us has finished grad school, so most of our talking points are gonna be second hand, right? It would be great if we could talk to a 1st generation Corporate professional who, maybe they graduated from a top 3 grad school in the nation. You know, someone who could share their story about their experiences Ade: Right, right Zach: What the job hunting was like and maybe how they used their degree to get to the next level, perhaps? Ade: Like our guest, Richard Odior? Ade + Zach : whaaaaaaa? Zach: Sound man - I need you to go ahead and drop them thangs in here for me! [air horns] Ade: [Laughs] alright, so next, we’re going to get into our interview with our guest Richard Odior. I hope you guys enjoy-------Zach: Hey y’all, we’re back! Annnnd as Ade said, we have Richard Odior on the show! Richard, welcome to Living Corporate man!Richard: Thanks for having me, guys, I'm glad to come to the show, I guess. This is exciting, man.Zach: So, for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing your story a bit? Specifically of how you (1) got into Corp America and (2) what led you to pursue an MBA?Richard: Yeah, so I went to the University of Houston and majored in Finance, and like anybody else in Houston, there's one option - oil and gas. So I quickly hopped into a career in finance in oil and gas for a couple of years, worked in commodity trading, then like financial performance analysis, pretty much all the board for a while. And then luckily I was able to gather with a group of friends who were trying to do some entrepreneurial things, and we opened up a chain of gourmet donut cafes in Houston. Shout out to Glazed. And so one of the things that the experience let me know is that I loved building things. I love growing things. But it also let me know I liked growing things fast. And what I learned about through that experience is that brick and mortar is a bit slower and so I went back to school in a sense to move back to a faster paced growth, and so for me that was tech, right? Tech enabled businesses. So, I went back to business school with two things in mind- either going to Venture Capital, or going to Consulting. Because I wanted to see a faster paced growth, that's kind of how my mission to go back to school started.Zach: So talk to me a bit more about growing things and growing things fast. When did you realize that the pace that you worked at was perhaps a little bit faster than that of your surroundings?Richard: Oh man, it was as soon as week three of work. I think at the time, oil and gas was moving slow, companies were paying people crazy amounts of dollars to do little work, and so I joined my new  group, and I was probably the only other person under 30 in my group of like thirty five people. And primarily because companies were paying people to do work that could have been automated and people were not motivated to move up because they were getting annual promotions, annual raises, and it was outlandish. And I just realized this was very slow. In the first 6 month of being there, I had already surpassed a lot of people of the floor because everybody was coasting, and it wasn’t because I was doing anything amazing, I was just putting in more effort than the average individual, right?Zach: Right, right.Richard: And for me, that just kinda wasn't what I wanted to do. I figured 'while you're young, do as much as you can as fast as you can, and learn as much as you can.' So I just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing, and through the experiences I was able, and great mentors at the company, I was able to build really fast, get into new roles, get new  opportunities that a lot of people probably wouldn't get into until several years into their career. And so that was pretty amazing, but then I realized I didn’t have ownership of anything. I didn't have anything that I could call my staple item. When you're working in oil and gas, you don't own an oil rig, you don't build an oil rig, you don't make any of  that, so I was like 'what is my impact?' and I didn't feel it. And I felt like there was a way to feel it, that I wanted to tangibly know that I had changed something. So, I looked at somewhere else. And luckily I had some friends who were into the same thing, into building, into cultivating, into doing some really cool things. And we just started chatting and we said 'hey, what can we do?'Zach: Were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven right when you got there? And were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven wrong?Richard: One preconceived notion, at least for business school, and I'll speak to business school, the hardest part was getting in. Once you're in, it's busy, it's difficult, it's kind of like a ride. You're growing yourself and learning and meeting new people all the time, and sometimes a lot of the work gets masked, if that makes sense. You don't realize how much work you're doing because it's  masked in so many other experiences. The opportunities really feel global. Like, I traveled almost thirty countries in two years, it was ridiculous.Zach: thirty countries in two years?Richard: Yeah I think the final number was like twenty-eight. And I can speak for myself, I don't want to speak for all minorities, but it's just one of the things that a friend of mine told me - speak up, raise your hand, and don't be afraid. Minorities tend to feel like our voice is not going to be on par with the rest of everybody. We think about what we're going to say so carefully because we want to seem a  certain way, and what I realized, and what my buddy told me, he was like 'you're here because you earned it. Don't ever feel like you didn't earn it, and don't ever feel like you can't compete.' Those were really really big words for me because I think often times I went to a public school, I went to the University of Houston, right? And a lot of b school classes have students coming out of Columbia, Harvard, Yale, and so sometimes you get this mindset like 'yoo what am I going to do, I'm not on the same level.' And then you get in there and you pull something out of yourself that you don't understand  that you have. And you understand that you're here because you're valuable, you're here because you bring something to the table, and I think that was one of the things that I had to shake off when I first got there.Zach: It's funny that you bring that up, talking about 'you look around the room and you see all these people that got really big collegiate names next to them' and how you question yourself like 'do you really belong there.' it's funny because a couple shows ago we had- we were talking about imposter syndrome and how you battle that. And it's funny that you kind of bring that up when you say 'not feeling like you should have to prove your seat at the table.' But that if you're here, you earned it, and you're here for a reason.I hope that people take that away and that they're encouraged by it. That's a really good message. And I think it's actually applicable in and outside of Academia, right?Richard: I always tell people like 'Let someone else turn you away,' right?Zach: Straight up, yeahRichard: The amount of times we (and I talk about we as the minority population), We self-doubt ourselves, right? We say oh-- I remember in undergrad, there was a career fair and there were several companies recruiting. And my buddies, we walked in and they veered off left and I veered off to the right and I was like 'yo guys, why don't you come in here?' and they were like 'well my GPA's not this and my grades aren't that' and I said 'let them tell you no'. I'm not going to tell myself no, you know? Someone needs to pat me on the back and say 'Hey Richard, what you're doing is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your product is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your grades aren't good enough', because I'm not going to tell myself I'm not good enough.Zach: Man, amenRichard: I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to hand in my resume to whoever's there, and we're going to have this conversation, and then you're gonna tell me I'm not good enough.Zach: No, straight up, I'm cheering you on when you're talking because man, that's my philosophy. Like, look man, there's plenty of people out there who will tell me I'm not whatever. I'm either too academic or not academic enough, I'm either too strategic or too tactical, or I'm too this or not enough that. Listen, man. There's enough out there already of all of that. So I'm not gonna be an additional voice for that, I'm going to tell myself I am enoughRichard: You are enough, yeah!Zach: You know, like what's the point? So you gonna sit back and join every other voice that's out there? Not to be super pessimistic and say that the world's against you, that's not what I'm saying. But there's more than enough voices  and perspectives and opinions, be that for whatever reason, that are gonna discount you, so don't discount yourself! Let them tell you, Let them push you out the room, let them tell you that you shouldn't sit at the table. Then you fight, but don't kick yourself before you even get started.Richard: 100% you gotta walk in like you already have a seat at the table every time you walk in the room.Zach: RightRichard: Every time. Every time you walk in the room. Now, I'm gonna let you pull my chair out, but I'm not pulling my own chair out of underneath myself.Zach: I'm saying! [Laughs]Richard: I have a  seat!Zach: That's rightRichard: I don't care what room it is. I walk in, I have a seat. That's how you have to operate.Zach: No absolutely. Well look, man, today as you know, we're talking about getting to the bag, right? And so the context was all around, like, we looked at a study called Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain and it's essentially  dispelling certain myths about wealth inequality and income inequality. And one of the things for me and Ade that we were talking about on the show, growing up, I just thought that if you got a grad degree, that they were just going to hand you money, right? That you're just gonna walk out of that thing with a thick six-figure salary, and so my question to you - what would you say to people who just make that assumption? Like look, I went to grad school, I got my MBA, and now it's time for me to get that 160,000, 180,000, 220,000 dollar bag. Like, what would you say to people who make that assumption?Richard: Whew, uh, I think a couple things to get the bag, you gotta be ready, first what are you bringing to the table? What industry are you looking to go into? What were you doing before? And how are you going to change the organization that you're going to now? So, for example, even me going to business school was interesting. I remember when I was making the decision, I was basically a finance guy, so I had to put it in a spreadsheet, right? And so, I had to say 'okay, if I go to business school and pay X and come out and get paid this, then it's valuable.' And I hate to sound like a snob, in a sense, but I think a lot of times people don't understand what they're investing in when they go to grad school. And I say this to say - not to knock any program -  all programs are not created equal, all opportunities are not created equal, so going to any grad school is not the same as going to certain grad schools, if that makes senseZach: YeahRichard: And it all depends on where you are in life, right? At a certain point, I usually say it's a premium spot is maybe 4 to 6, anywhere from 4 to 6 years is a premium spot because you've probably made good enough money at the place you're in, but still have enough value from the MBA to get the post-MBA salary and still be worth it. Let me give an example - if you work 8 years and you've made your salary is now at  X dollars, it's harder to leverage the MBA because the jump that you can make is smaller, right? But if you go at prime time, which is usually, for most people about 4-6 years, a jump is still very sizeable. So for example, I was blessed with a really good job before, like I said, it was great, I was making really good money. But post MBA, I was still able to increase my overall salary by more than 50%. At that point, the numbers still made sense. But if I had stayed in my current company for maybe another year or two, the jump would not have been as large.Zach: RightRichard: Also, I think some of the big things - it's not just about the bag now, it's about the bag later. And I say that in the sense that if you go to the right program with the right resources and the right network, the beauty of it is, it's not just about you getting the bag today, but your network will also be getting the bag. And so your network is your bag as well. Because whenever they're looking to hire a consultant down the line? It's you. Whenever they're looking to hire someone for an acquisition? It's you. They're gonna operate in the network of other people that they believe are competent. One of the things I noticed - I work in consulting- one of the things I noticed was some of the best managing directors, what they leverage is their MBA network. What they utilize is their other classmates working in industry, at whatever company it may be, and they reach out to them and they sell these huge million dollar projects back and forth. And because that bag is not just a today bag, it's a future bag, right? And so I won't say that knowledge isn't something that you can always google. There's a lot of aspects you can Google about the knowledge you can get, the documentation, but a large part of business school is  the in-person interaction. I used to sit with my classmates from Colombia, India, Indonesia, all over the world, and we would talk about different concepts and I'd learn directly from them. And two things that I got - I got unique knowledge, but I also got to know them better. So, when I tell you I went to 28 countries, I was going with these people from those countries and I was learning business through them and with them and now in the future, they know that if an opportunity comes, I can knock on their door, they can knock on mine.Zach: When we talk about wealth or the bag, I know for me that my default is "how much money am I going to make off of  this job?' Individually, me, right now. As opposed to, to your point, pulling from your network, right? And thinking about, you said, the bag in the future. I would say even if your bag is only, you know, in the context of a yearly salary, your bag isn't big enough, right? Like I would say you need to be thinking about really what encompasses the bag. And to your point, it's that network. When you think about MDs and Partners and Principals, especially cats who have been selling work for 5, 10, 15 years, they typically are selling work back and forth to like the same what like 7 or 8 people?Richard: 7 or 8 people!Zach: Like it's not like they're like 'oh I found this brand new guy that just popped out of nowhere' No, they have a network there.Richard: That's part of the bag. The relationships are part of the bag because ideally, one of the things I realized, and if you go to the right program, if you do it the right way, you don't have to get to the bag immediately. And I've seen it multiple times where someone went to grad school, they might have not gotten the exact job they wanted, but they take another job, they did well, they got promoted, then two jobs down the line, when a great opportunity comes with that company, well their friend works at that company and is high in that company, and they pull them over. You see a gravitation of 'oh that company's run by a bunch of X people that go to that school, that company is  run by a lot of people that go to that program.' It's because there's a relationship that's being built, that's being carried over in so many ways. There's a reason why certain companies recruit at certain schools, because those relationships, someone high in that company is from that school and has that relationship, so there's definitely value. And if you're changing industries, there's definitely a value there. And that was one of the factors that if you're putting it into a spreadsheet, you won't be able to put that part in the spreadsheet. Your bag might not be actual cash, it might be your happiness and your enjoyment of getting into something you wanna do. I have a lot of friends from school who might have been doing things like banking, investment banking previously, making north of 200 [thousand] a year, and took jobs that make maybe half of that post because their ideal goal was to get to something that was different, and that was  the bag for them. And so identifying what your bag is is a big thing. If you identify what your bag is, then you can identify how to get to the bagZach: That's a really good point, man. I like that a lot. So to your point, I think perspective matters. What you're thinking about what your goals are. Which actually is a good segue to my next question, so as a follow up to that, what was your strategy for you on leveraging an MBA for where you want to go? So when you think about - man did you even plug the school? Did you plug the school that you went to?Richard: Oh I gotta plug my school, I was waiting for the end, but I went to Kellogg, man. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, man. That's my home, man. They took care of me for a good two years, man.Zach: There we go. So my question is when you think about Kellogg and the degree that you earned, what was your strategy on leveraging your MBA for where you wanted to go? Like how did it fit into your master plan?Richard: I'm still leveraging it now. I mean, in multiple ways. I think for me, the school, ideally chose the school for one a few reasons, right? One was the programs that had the learning that I like to learn. It had a lot of hands-on learning, but mixed with class work. And they promised that you would work in over 400 groups before you left. And I was like wow, 400? I was like alright. And the importance of that was that I work best when I get to know people. Like I'm not the best, but I've always been good at managing relationships and I wanted to go to a school where I'd get to interact with people, manage and harvest relationships, and be able to develop with these people. So when I chose the school, that was definitely in mind, and then on top of that, since I've been in school, the network is amazing. I've been able to reach out to so many people and I've made mentors and connections through our network that have been beyond anything I could have dreamed about. And I'm still making networks and connections, I'm still making calls, and I'm still giving back in the same way. And so I'm always in this realm of gratefulness to the program, but it's leveraged me to be able to have conversations with individuals who probably would never, if I had just tried to make a certain transition, would answer my call. In my phone, to this day, I have the numbers saved of at least 5 millionaires. Easily. And that's a minimum. And those came through the experience of when I got to Kellogg, connecting with certain people, being continuously connected to my goals. For me, I had several short term and long term goals. I was able to utilize my network very early on. I remember the first week of school, we did an exercise, and it was in your sections, sections  were usually around 60 people, and so our professor said I want you to tell me something that is one of your largest goals and I want you to put it on the board. And we're one by one putting it on the board. And anybody who could help you get to your goal would come write their name on your sheet.Zach: oh wow, that's powerful.Richard: and it was  interesting because he said 'you don't realize what you have alone in this room. Not even the whole school, but what you have alone in this room.' And from that first week of school alone, from the people who wrote their name on my list, I've been able to go so far. It's been crazy, I've met some of the millionaires I was said I connected to was through one exercise. And they leveraged me to introduce me to other people and it's been amazing and so, because of that, I naturally have been given experiences where I don't even have to leverage the MBA, the MBA gave to me directly, if that makes sense.Zach: No it does, that makes a lot of sense, man. So look, I have a last question for you - do you have any other plugs, other shoutouts?Richard: Whew, um, I got a lot of shout outs, a lot og plugsZach: Do your thing man, do your thingRichard: I gotta do a Glazed Donut Café - if you’re in Houston, for sure, check this out. They're my family. Love you. Kellogg's School of Management, Bauer was my undergrad, go Coug's, I learned everything I know from them. I also wanna plug Impact America Fund. One of the firms I used to work at, and I got connected to them during business school. It's a double bottom line venture capital fund which focuses on investing in minority entrepreneurs and underrepresented minorities. I learned a lot from the people at that firm and I've grown a lot through them. I want to shout out to Living Corporate for doing what they're doing. You guys don't know how major this is right here. Honestly, as someone who has constantly worked in corporate america, this is something we used to talk about in business school is - we often have to cover and hover and hide who we are constantly, and what you guys are giving people is the opportunity to really be open, and also an opportunity to see that you're not alone in the workplace. Which is often times when you're the 'other,' you always feel alone. This podcast alone has excited me so much because it lets me know I'm not alone, and lets me hear the stories of people who are doing great things that are also considered an 'other' at work.Zach: Aw man, that's amazing, well first of all Richard, bro thank you for the kind words. The thing about it is, what excites me is your energy is - and spoiler alert for those who don't know, Richard and I are friendly, and we've known each other for about a decade now-Richard: yeah man, a decade!Zach: But what's crazy, and what excites me is the fact that when you say something, especially when you give praise, and also when you constructive criticism, but when you speak all that energy, it comes from a really authentic place. And so, we wanna thank you for joining us today, and definitely all the shout outs- I want to endorse. Eat Glazed. Glazed is  a great donut spot, good donuts, great flavors, if you're in Houston, check it out. You'll probably see us shout them out on our IG stories, so stay tuned for that, but anyway, Richard man, thank you for joining us todayRichard: Yeah, and any minorities who are listening and you're thinking about grad school or business school, I can speak specifically to business school, if you're thinking about business  school, feel free to hit me up. Honestly, I'm an open book, I like talking, I'll have a conversation with you, anyone who needs anything honestly. My goal is to see more of us in those spaces, because honestly something I will say is it's a leveling ground. It evens out the field and I've seen it multiple times, for people who were not given a silver spoon to start off with. So if you want to have a conversation, if you just have questions in general, these guys have my contact info, feel free to reach out and we can chop it upZach: We'll definitely put the contact info in the podcast description. Drop your stuff, man, what's your twitter, your IG-Richard: yeah so my email is richard.odior@gmail.com, my IG is r.odior. That's it, you can find me on facebook, find me on LinkedIn, feel free to touch base any time. Let me know that you came from Living Corporate first so I can show these guys some love.Zach: [laughs] yeah man, that's what's up. Richard, again brother, thank you. We look forward to talking to you again soon, brother. Alright, Peace.--Ade: And we’re back. Yo, that was a great interview and Richard was a fun guest. He had some great insights on how you can leverage a degree for your goals, but I think I’m more certain now than I was before that that degree isn’t a cheat code. Zach: Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I was raised to think that having a graduate degree would give me one two three four five six seven eight Ms in my bank account. Ade: Right, but at the same time I do believe the degrees have their time and place. They just need to be part of your plan. Which is it’s own thing. Zach: Real talk. I know for me I genuinely want to get a grad degree, right? First it was an MBA, but now I’m thinking an I/O Psych PHD but -- Ade: Oh, ok you fancy huh? Zach: I am very fancy, for sure. The point is, I’m trying to think it through, like the why of the degree, because school isn't free. Definitely not even cheap Ade: Sure isn't, sure is not. And, listen, we started off the show talking about wealth inequality and how it isn’t fixed purely by education. I don’t think this should discourage people from pursuing a degree. I do hope that this conversation helps us think critically and analyze fairly common assumptions many of us were raised to believe about how wealth is generated and distributed. Like Richard alluded to, we’re going to have to re-think what “the bag” is for us and what our strategy to secure it, it has to be more than an annual salary. Zach: Right! That’s a soundbite for sure. This is a huge, complex, and yes, frustrating topic, but I believe the starting point is awareness, then thoughtful dialogue, then planning and then action. Ade: Agreed! Anyway - let’s get into our next segment - my favorite things, where we talk about what our favorite things are these days. Zach : Yes! My favorite thing right now has to be this book I’m reading called Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge. It’s so frank and honest. I also have a bias towards aggressive book titles. Book titles that let you know exactly what it's about when you pick it up. I just, I really enjoy that. Also, shout out to Glazed Donuts. Glazed Donuts is a gourmet donut restaurant based in Houston TX. I can tell you they have a great product - donuts, sandwiches, kalaches, juice, allat. Shout out to Richard, Bobby, Edose, TJ and all the members of the Glazed Donut team. Ade: So currently, I have at the absolute top of my list of one true loves, I have this  book called Children of Blood and Bone. It is by Tomi Adeyemi who wrote just an amazing, amazing work. And I'm looking forward to reading more from her. I'm Nigerian, I'm Yoruba, and it's really beautiful to see the Yoruba pantheon of gods incorporated into a literary work. So go check that out if you are interested at all in, well, reading. But also if you're interested at all in any fantasy novels, really really good book. My other favorite thing- I don't know if you've seen I just got a new dog. His name is Benji. Well, technically his name is Maximillian Benjamin Gold the third. There is no first or second, but yeah. We are extra over here around these parts. I call him Benji because I'm the more sane mama. I'm well grounded and down to earth and all of those things. So my beautiful beautiful baby husky is just my newest ray of sunlight and I just, I cannot get enough of him. I've taken 262 pictures and I've posted maybe 3 of them, so like I'm not being obsessive and I'm not being 'that guy' but. He's a gorgeous pup, and I do say so myself. Zach: Dope! Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com.   If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. This is has been Zach. Ade: and I’m Ade Both : peace!9:19 -> 10:18

In this episode, Zach and Latricia discuss effective salary negotiation strategies with experienced Walker Elliot senior recruiter Kyle Mosley. Length: 00:39:55Hosts: Latricia | ZachTRANSCRIPTLatricia: Federal Reserve research shows that Black workers earn less than their white counterparts in a worsening trend that holds even after accounting for differences in age, education, job type and geography.In 1979, the average black man in America earned 80 percent as much per hour as the average white man. By 2016, that shortfall had worsened to 70 percent, according to research from the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which found the divide had also widened for black women.The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (that's 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056. The excerpts I read from Bloomberg and NBC respectively speak to historical inequity that people of color face when it comes to equal pay in the workplace. Considering the nation’s history, this itself should not be a surprise, however the question is what if anything can we do as non-white men do to tip the scales in our favor? This is Latricia. And you’re listening to Living Corporate.Latricia: So, today we’re talking about effective salary negotiation and career management strategies.Zach This is a great topic and I’m glad we’re discussing it. The data you shared at the top of the show was… I’ma be honest, it was like really depressing - BUT it points to the reality of where we are and we can’t move forward without being honest about where we’re starting.Latricia: Right. It is frustrating to see the data and it’s reminder that racial inequity goes beyond the typical talking points that aren’t often explored and understood.Zach: Right. Latricia: I mean, let me read this again-“The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (which is 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056.”Zach: That. is. Crazy. And I know this show is about salary negotiation and career management, but that particular point from those articles reminds me of conversations you and I have had around how so many companies promote Diversity & Inclusion but don’t actually discuss anything beyond gender representation.Latricia: Right we just talked about that - so this is a great example of how that binary view is so problematic. From looking at the analysis from the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and again be reminded that all women aren’t treated equally, having that intersection of race and gender matters if we’re going to have completely authentic conversation around these issues.Zach: Man, I completely agree. So with that in mind, let’s talk about salary negotiation. I think this is a great topic because I’ll speak for my own experiences and what I’ve observed, I feel as if people of color don’t really advocate or encourage the idea of just negotiating. I’ll hear more stuff like “you just need to get in the door and work your way up, you don’t want them to look at you sideways or think that you’re all about the money or whatever, whatever, whatever”. I hear a lot of those talking points from other people of color.Latricia: Right, right. And I’ve heard the same thing. A little bit about me, my background is in public health and I’m in this facebook group with other women in public health, I won’t say the group specifically, but I’ve seen how black women with master’s degrees are working jobs out of their masters for almost minimum wage. And I can’t believe it. And even just the idea of a six figure salary is something that they don’t dream of until they’re at the top of their career, maybe close to retirement, we’re talking like 50. That’s when they’re thinking they’ll be able to get to that six figures. And then I’m sharing stories about kids I know coming out of undergrad within 3 years at some of these firms, and they’re making six figures in 3 years and you’re talking six figures 20 years into your career. And I’m really passionate about this episode and it’s important for us to talk about it. Like I said, in public health, for some reason people are too ashamed to talk about the money because we’re more focused on social justice and healthcare for all and I totally understand that viewpoint, but we can accomplish social justice and still secure the bag. So, I really think that this is going to be an important show.Zach: Right, and I guess I’m a little taken aback to be honest, because you’re talking about these women. And like I said, you and I have had this conversation in private, but you saying it again is just mind-boggling. You’re talking about women who have advanced degrees taking, like, pennies on the dollar. And that’s nuts to me. And it honestly makes me sad but I’m not surprised, like where do you think that comes from? The idea of not negotiating or not negotiating enough? And let me be clear guys, this is not just an issue for black women. The main people I’ve gotten this whole “chill, take it slow, get in the door and grind” talk are actually from male people of color. But where do you think that comes from, Latricia? What are your thoughts there?Latricia: It’s definitely not exclusive to women of color. These realities still create practical, micro level challenges for all of us day-to-day. And like we said from the start, the issues we’re pushing up against are systemic and institutional and we get that… but, I don’t think that means we just say “whelp, racism, woe is me” and don’t at least figure out ways to fight and be more strategic in how we push for that bag you know? Zach: I definitely do. That’s funny “whelp, racism” that should be a meme. “Nothing we can really do.” It’s not funny but it’s kinda funny at the same time. Anyway--Latricia: That’s gonna be the hashtag for the show, by the way.Zach: Anyway, to your point, I definitely do. And like you said, just talking about some of the larger data points, who’s to say that we’re not able to do some things and mobilize at an individual level that could impact the whole thing? There might be things that we can do, just as Latricia, as Zach, as the person listening to this podcast that could actually make a dent in some of these trends. Latricia: Absolutely. And really, it’d be great to have another, more seasoned perspective. Like someone with over 25 years of experience in career coaching, or corporate recruiting, salary negotiations, and strategic relationship building. Not to say this discussion hasn’t been great, but just to have that extra perspective, you know?Zach: Hmm… you mean like our guest for today’s show, Kyle Mosley?Latricia, Zach: Whaaaaa-?[air horns]Latricia: Alright, so next, we’re going to go into an interview with our guest, Kyle Mosely.Zach: So we have Kyle Mosley on the show - Kyle, welcome!Kyle: Hey, thank you for having me, Zach.Zach: Not a problem, we’re really excited to have you here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind just sharing your story?Kyle: Oh definitely. Well, Zach, I’ve been a recruiter for about 25 years here in Houston, Texas. I started off in 1992, so really I’m going into my 26th year pretty soon. So I started as an engineering recruiter, as well as I delved into some executive recruiting. I owned my own recruiting firm for 8 years before getting back into connecting with an old buddy of mine in the recruiting network and I’m still recruiting until this day. It has been a very lucrative field, my wife is a recruiter as well. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be able to share and help other people.Zach: That’s awesome, and congratulations on coming up on 26 years, that’s amazing.Kyle: Yeah long time. Long, long time, man.Zach: So as you know today we're talking about effective salary negotiation. Can you explain from your point of view why salary negotiation matters?Kyle: That’s a good question. Salary negotiations are much like a relationship negotiation. It sets the tone for what relationship you will or will not have with the prospective employer, okay? So ideally everybody wants to have a win-win situation when it comes to salary negotiations. But, we know eventually one side will either concede or compromise or the other side will not. And somebody either will walk away or, if there is the compromise, there still may be some expectations there from one party that didn’t quite get what they want. So when you go into a salary negotiation, you must know that before you finalize the negotiation as well as come to terms with the other party, what are you prepared to be able live with? I think right now, Zach, in this day and age, it’s no different from when I started recruiting, to be honest with you. It’s that everybody expects to get something out of the deal, right? So if you go into the salary negotiation expecting your top ten list to be fulfilled by the employer? I think you’re delusional.Zach: [Laughs]Kyle: [Laughs] And the reason why I’m saying this is let’s be honest, and I always back to the relationship principle - when you and your wife first started dating, there was some give and take. And it’s the same with your employer, or prospective employer. There will be a give and take. Now, your employer may concede certain aspects of the job function or the salary that you’re going to get, but there are going to be some high expectations the higher that salary goes.Zach: Okay.Kyle: And are you willing and ready to be prepared to accept that responsibility, you see? So if you cannot accept that responsibility and take the ownership of what’s going to happen once you become gainfully employed with that prospective employer, you are going to really have a difficult track with that organization.Zach: So to your point though about, I guess, being more practical regarding companies’ expectations the higher the number goes, do you have any examples or stories of how that plays out?Kyle: Over 25 years I’ve been a part of hundreds of salary negotiations, right? The issue comes into play and it always comes back to “who’s going to be bitter about this situation or not?” [Laughs]Zach: [Laughs] ‘Kay.Kyle: and who’s going to have the higher expectation there. So let’s kind of do a reverse engineering type deal - Let’s start from - you’re on board with the employer, but that employer is going to be expecting certain things from you. So before you go into any salary negotiation, you’ve got to be able to do your homework, number one. And also, number two, you have to know your value. If you don’t know your value and you don’t know anything about the employer or where you’re going to work, you’re really going to put yourself at a disadvantage in this whole negotiation scenario. Now when I talk about knowing your value, is the fact that a lot of people believe that ‘okay. I came out of school, went for 4 years, got my bachelor’s’ and let’s say ‘I went to get a master’s degree or MBA or some sort of advanced college degree, right?Zach: Right.Kyle: So therefore when I go onto these career sites like glassdoor or salary.com or monster or careerbuilder, these guys are telling me I’m worth 80k dollars to start off with. And the employer wants to know ‘yeah, you have great credentials when it comes to your educational credentials, but what about when it comes to your real work experience credentials?’ Ok, and the value comes into - if I offer Zach an opportunity to come onto my company XYZ Executive Firm, right? I need to know that Zach from Day 1 is going to enhance my company. Versus Zach is going to be a person extracting from my company.Zach: okay, yeah.Kyle: So then, that’s when I’m saying if you know your value from day 1, you’ve got to be able to articulate this to your prospective employer. That’s a part of the negotiation cycle. Alright so, I have an entry-level kid coming out of one of these big name Texas schools, and he’s an engineer, and he has his PhD in engineering. So then I have a 5 year engineer who has worked in the oil and gas industry, he only has a bachelor’s degree and they’re vying for the same opportunity. So the firm is telling us ‘ Ilike the fact that this guy went to my alma mater. However, I need a guy that from Day 1 can hit the ground running.’ So who does he offer the job to? The one who has the practical, real-world experience. I’m not trying to alarm people who have done well in their educational pursuits, but you cannot say that I’m gonna walk in day 1 expecting x amount of salary if I don’t have practical experience. That’s when knowing your worth comes into play.Zach: ‘KayKyle: What are you willing to concede in order to get a start in the real world? That 1 if you’re entry-level. 2, let’s say you are the 5-year person or 10-year person or 20-year person - You have some achievements that you’ve done in previous jobs, but if you don’t have that information, if you’re just going off of your emotions-- see, you have to take the emotion out of the equation. You have to also articulate what you believe you’re worth.Zach: Okay. So when we’re sitting down and we’re having conversations with the employer, and you’re answering questions and things of that nature, how do you articulate your value?Kyle: Okay that’s where you do your homework. And a lot of doing your homework is what type of questions are you asking in the interview yourself. A lot of people go into an interview believing that they’re sitting down and the employer is going to ask them all of the questions and they’re going to answer questions and that’s it. No, you have to be prepared to be able to ask certain types of questions to the employer like How long has this job been open? How long have you been looking for the right person? What expectations do you have of that person when they walk in the door? 90 days, 120 days, 180 days, a year, whatever. What are those time tables? What are those things that we can quantify that you’re going to expect me to come in with through the door. If you’re a sales person, they’re going to want to see X amount of revenue that you bring into the organization, right?Zach: RightKyle: if you are an engineer or technical professional, they want to see how many projects you work on and complete in X amount of time. If you are an operations professional, how many projects have you brought to the table and how many projects have you been able to find the right people to work on those projects and be able to complete in this particular time frame as well. So those are the types of things that you have to be able to flesh out in the interview process. If you’re not able to flesh values from the employer, how can you negotiate effectively? Because a lot of people believe ‘It should be on my resume, and you should be able to give me what I’m worth’. So what is that? How does that look? How, as an employer, would I be able to know that Mr. Nunn is worth 60 or 80,000 dollars? 80 or 100,000 dollars to my organization? Because what’s going to be my return on my investment in Mr. Nunn?Zach: For those who don’t know, Kyle Mosley is a black man. And Kyle, I’m curious, as a black professional, I’m curious, have you seen any differences when you look at how white and non-white candidates pursue job opportunities?’Kyle: First of all, audience, let me just say this - I’m a Morehouse man. So when I came out of college, I believed I could conquer the world. I’ll be honest with you though, back in 1989, that’s when I graduated, and I believed I could walk into any room, boardroom and get an offer. That’s how i felt. As a matter of fact, when I first got to Houston, I interviewed at 5 companies in one day and got 4 offers. I had confidence, right? So the confidence I had was I did not go into the interviews with fear. When an African-American engineer, not all- this is what I have noticed.Zach: Okay.Kyle: When an AA engineer goes into an interview, they usually are not as well prepared on the company, who’s the interviewer, who’s going to be a part of the interviewing process, understanding what makes the people tick. If you ever have dealt with a recruiter or have a relationship, a recruiter can possibly give you some inside information on the company, what’s happening with the position, how long these people have been looking, if it’s a high turnover type of situation, or if it’s going to be a tough interview, and how you need to present yourself. We do the whole gamut of setting the person up for as much success during the interview versus if you’re winging it by yourself. And you can always use me, I’m just putting it out there, as someone - you’ve probably heard my voice and said ‘alright I need some help, I’m going into this, I don’t have a recruiter’ - call me. I’m open to help people out. What I would suggest is not only building a network with recruiters or with other talent professionals, being able to study who you’re going to speak with and the market. Also go on LinkedIn. Man, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool. I’m just going to use fictional ABC company.Zach: Sure.Kyle: So, sometimes Human Resources is going to say ‘Ok Sally, you have an interview at 8am tomorrow, be here, be early so you can be prepared to fill out paperwork...’ And you hang up the phone. ‘Wow, I got an interview!’ and you’re excited. Zach, who will you meet? Who will be a part of this process?Zach: Yeah.Kyle: Now I’ve seen other engineers say ‘ok that’s great, but when I walk in the door, who do I need to be expecting my arrival? And how long will I be with this person? Who else is going to be a part of this process?’ They ask more questions.Zach: Right.Kyle: They want to be educated. They want to go to the person’s linkind profile, look at let’s say, where the person went to school, how long they’ve been at the company themselves, what type of hobbies they may have, sometimes people have their hobbies on there. Let’s say it’s photography or hunting or whatever it is.Zach: Right.Kyle: Those are things that you could bring up in the interview, okay? Try to find some common ground with the person outside of just being about the interview or things of that nature, right?Zach: Right. Kyle: So those are things that help you build a successful way to get in the door, interview successfully with that person, and ask the right questions- typically I don’t want people to speak about money on the first interview.Zach: Okay.Kyle: You typically do not want to be the one to come out with the money first because you don’t want to look like it’s only about money to you. Most of the time, they’re going to ask you. So if they ask you, yes address it. And address it confidently. Now, you can also say this- let’s say I’m Mr. Interviewer. ‘Well, Zach, how much money do you want for this particular job?”Zach: Right. [laughs]Kyle: ‘How much are you expecting from us here?’‘Well, Mr. Employer that’s a great question. Can I answer this at the end of the interview so I can be able to get an assessment for what you guys are looking for, to make sure that I’m able to answer that correctly and address it properly.’Zach: Right. So I hear what you’re saying, but at the end of the interview, what would you suggest saying?Kyle: Well, you can give them the number you feel that would make you happy. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Kyle: but you say it in such a way - ‘well, based upon what you guys are looking for, Joe, you’ve been looking for 5 months, you’ve been trying to find the right person who can execute this type of project. I have been able to execute this type of project in several occasions, I explained that in the interview. You’ve been looking for someone to come in and work well with the team, with different teams... so based upon what you’re looking for and my background and feeling like I can make a contribution immediately, I want 100,000 dollars.Zach: Straight like that.Kyle: If you already know that this is what the salary range is bearing, right? Zach: Right. Kyle: You need to have a good feeling, and you can ask that question with HR on the phone , say ‘Hey you know I’m just kind of curious. For this type of role, thank you for this interview first, but what’s the salary range for this?’Zach: you know, I think- Of course we live in a capitalistic society, right? Like you have to have money to survive. So I’m really trying, and I appreciate you clarifying, asking directly about the money piece because I’ve also been in situations where people reach out to me and they’ll be really excited and you know, their salary range is like 15-20% under what I’m making right now. And everybody wants to always make more. You know like ‘how much do you want to make?’ ‘I want to make more than I’m making right now whatchyou mean?’ So I think it’s really important if there’s a way that you can kinda get in front of that and in a way, to your point though, that isn’t so money hungry or just makes it seem as though all you care about is money but at the same time, being transparent about where are we with this thing financially.Kyle: Can I just adress one thing, Zach?Zach: You sure can, yes please.Kyle: Okay, notice when the person asked the question, I didn’t just immediately answer the question, but I asked another question. So there are a couple of techniques you can use. Person asks a question? You can answer the question with a question. Answering a question with a question - Kids are great at that, you know? They do the same thing. My son is about to be 13 next week and now he’s into - he’s not just going to give me a straight answer. And What I learned early on in my career in recruiting is that the person who answers the question first usually loses. Okay, so what do I mean by that? I’m glad you asked, Zach.Zach: [ laughs]Kyle: So what I mean by it is the fact that if a person says ‘we’re prepared to offer you 80,000 dollars.’. Now you can answer it ‘great! I accept! I’m ready to go to work!’ Because you must know in the back of your mind thats where you are and what you’re willing to accept. But if you want to negotiate, you may say ‘ hmm.......’ Notice that long, uncomfortable pause.Zach: Yes, I did.Kyle: right, it’s an uncomfortable pause so sometimes the HR professional who may be extending the offer verbally or the hiring manager may extend it verbally, sometimes they just send an email these days which is a horrible, horrible way of presenting an offer to a prospective employee. Yes I said that, Mr. and Mrs. Employer. You guys need to stop that.Zach: [laughs] Amen.Kyle: So you’ve got to be willing to answer the question, follow up and say ‘look, this seems like a great offer, let me study it, let me be able to review it. I may have some questions, will I be able to call you back? What time is good for me to do so? Let’s make an appointment, can we talk at 3 oclock on Monday to be able to go over the offer in detail, so I can be able to make sure I’m on the same page with you.Zach: Okay.Kyle: So you’re going to have them doing what? In the next day or two or the next hours that are coming - ‘did I really extend it the best offer I could’. Now I always ask my employers whenever they extend an offer to any of my candidate, I’ve been taught to ask this from day 1 - is this the best offer you can extend?Zach: I like that.Kyle: Why? Because I’ve got to be honest guys, 80-90% of the time, that’s not the best offer they can extend. Now, is that the best offer they’re going to extend to you? Maybe. But the bottom line is there are other variables. So you want them to be able to explain why they were eager to prepare this offer for you. And listen, don’t get emotional. Don’t get mad and feel you’re being lowballed. Or you’re being underappreciated or feeling discriminated against. You can’t do that. You have to listen first. Listen to what they have to say, say ‘Okay, I’m taking all of this into consideration. Can I get back to you’ Now here’s the fear part. And this is where many of my minority friends come into the fear part. ‘They’re going to rescind the offer. Because I asked to be able to think about it’.Zach: Right.Kyle: No. It’s how you prepare to ask about. If you have an attitude? Yeah, most likely they’re going to rescind the offer. But if you’re trying to make a well educated decision and let them know ‘I’m trying to make the best decision for me and my family’ or ‘for me and my professional career’. Even if you are fearful they’re going to rescind the offer, say something like this- ‘well, I need to see the benefits, can I speak with the human resources professional and go over the benefits first?’Zach: Oh that’s awesome, yeah.Kyle: Then they’re thinking ‘well yeah, it’s just the benefits, yeah sure. Sure sally why don’t you do that, I’ll set you up with Joe Best and you guys can go over that’ you know? How well you frame it is going to make sure you have your house being supported - your career is your house - what type of foundation you lay, what type of framework you put into your home, will it support the weight of everything else that’s going on? And I’m only saying this because I want the audience to be more in a power type of position versus being passive when it comes to this. Once you start your career, guys, you have to be able to say ‘This is what my goals are going to be’.. And every year you have to redefine your goals, you have to please please redefine your goals. Make sure you check on your goals, make sure you’re on point. You also need to have an outside coach or someone to help monitor you with your accountability as well.Alright, what I would say is this, to any professional, it doesn’t matter how young or old you are- make sure you learn as much as you can to platform yourself to your new situation. Build your career, have a solid foundation so that when people, they look at your track record, they see a progression. That’s it right there, a progression. OKay? Because I had a client of mine come to us and say ‘look, I don’t want to see anyone who’s unemployed’. It’s like ‘ok, this is oil and gas country, there may have been some people out of work’. And the guy says ‘yeah I understand that, but for this role, because this person will most likely become a manager within the next year or two and I need to train this person because I’m going to become the VP of the company, I need to see somebody with a career track record that they progressed from one job to the next. So the person wasn’t just engineer day 1, then he went to another company to be the same type of engineer. You know, I want to see the person go to the next step, supervisor, next step department manager, next step this that and the other, right? If the person’s going to be Analyst 1, don’t go to another job where you’re just going to be Analyst 1. If you can bear not to do so, just for the same type of functions, but more money.Zach: Kyle this is great. And I actually think that’s a good place to end it. You know I really appreciate your time, Thank you. Before we let you go - do you have any shoutouts?Kyle: First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has been in my career my 25+ years. Thank you very much for helping me to be highly successful. My wife, of course, and my family, and thank you for this opportunity as well. But most of all, audience, I would like to thank you for listening into what Zach is presenting because this is some good information. And you may say ‘Hey, Mr. Mosely, I think you made some nice points but I don’t quite agree with you’. That’s okay! It's a discussion for you to think about what you want to do with your career and how you’d like to progress with your career. So you can always follow me on twitter @ExecRecruitPro, I’m on twitter there. And if you want to connect with me, my firm that I represent is called Walker Elliott. So you can always email me at kmosley@walker-elliott.com.Zach: And there it is, Kyle Mosely thank you so much again.Kyle: Hey thank you Zach, anytime, let me know and remember - don’t be as good as, be better than.Zach: Amen. Peace, Man.Kyle: Take care, bye.Latricia: And we’re back! Zach that was a great interview. Kyle has a lot of knowledge and I just love his energy.Zach: Yeah for sure. Typically I feel like I’m the bombastic one but he was keeping up with me pretty good. What did you think about his feedback on clearly articulating the number you want and the reason why?Latricia: Yeah, I really enjoyed his practical perspective on things. For example, response methods. So not just blurting out concerns like ‘that’s not enough money!’, but pausing before you speak, and making it a little awkward. That was really funny, but it makes sense because it’s that psychological approach. There were some mind games there and I just really enjoyed that.Zach: Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. I also appreciated that he said how this is his perspective and not Gospel. We definitely enjoyed having him on the show, and we definitely want to have him back.Latricia: Yeah he was great. We need to make sure we drop his contact information so everyone can reach out to him if they have any additional questions or concerns.Zach: For sure! Ok - Well look, let’s get into our next segment - favorite things, where we talk about our favorite things these days. Latricia I’ll let you start.Latricia: Yeah, so my favorite thing right now has to be biking. So, it’s very important that you stay fit. I recently participated in BikeMS in Dallas, it was a 160 mile bike route. Of course I did not do the 160 because I am a beginner. So I did the beginner route, but I love biking, it’s a great way to exercise without feeling like it’s punishment, and I’m hoping that next year I can actually complete the entire course.Zach: Man that’s really cool. And we definitely, definitely wanna stay fit, and I’m really excited actually because I know down the road we want to actually have a whole show about personal wellness. Right? And that’s a big part of it. Physical wellness is a huge part of it. Well, cool. My Favorite thing right now has to be, believe it or not, this Snoop Dogg Gospel album.Listen, y’all--Latricia: Ohh, that album is fire!Zach: It is Fire, it is really really good. I mean, welcome to 2018. Like, I can say that Snoop Dogg, at this point -- and again I didn’t want to be a prisoner of the moment, so I said welcome to 2018--where Snoop Dogg has dropped one of the coldest gospel albums I have ever heard. And it’s been some months now and this album is still heavy in my rotation, especially when folks trying me at work. To be honest.Latricia: [laughs] I actually listen to that song when I’m at work, too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show - Like The Read , make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. My name is Latricia.Zach: and I’m Zach.Latricia, Zach: peace!Mrs. Jackson: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post Production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on twitter, facebook, instagram and living dash corporate dot com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned.

In our first episode, Zach and Ade discuss the topic of impostor syndrome and welcome former fortune 50 executive, Amazon best selling author, and entrepreneur Fenorris Pearson to share his story. Length: 00:47:30Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTZACH: It's 2011 and I just graduated from the University of Houston (go Coogs!). I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed and I'm scared out of my mind. It's my first day and a large retail company an HR Manager and since I'm an "Executive Team Lead", there's a big orientation with all the other "Executive Team Leads in the region. At 20 years old, I'm easily. One of the youngest managers in the company. I look around the room and I see folks way older than me and seemingly much more comfortable in their own skin. I should be excited. I should be thankful. I should be happy. Instead, I only had one statement seared in my mind. First a whisper, then finally, a clear assertion: I don't belong here. This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. ZACH: So today we're talking about imposter syndrome. An hbr article defines it as a collection of feelings of inadequacy that persists despite evidence success. Ade, can you relate to that? ADE: Absolutely. On our website, which you also check out by the way, there is a quick little blurb about the fact that I'm an aspiring software engineer. I knew nothing about code before I started exploring it and I can't tell you the number of times I sat in a room and I was like, OK, I heard the words that came out of your mouth and I'm pretty certainly were in English, but I could not tell you for the life of me what they meant to. There's just this repeated feeling of, I'm in the wrong group. You have you ever had that dream where everybody around you can see you naked and you're not aware until he looked down and realized, oh crap, they're laughing at me. I'm just that repeated feeling of I'm in the wrong room and everybody can see it. Also in like my own job, my current position, I'm always feeling like I'm always hesitant to answer questions even though I know the answer to them because I'm often either the youngest person in the room or the least experience. And I find that despite how confident I might be when it's just me and I know that I've done my homework and I know that I've done all the background necessary, I always find myself like second guessing myself for that one, very brief, split second, and sometimes that's just the difference between somebody else getting the position or somebody else getting an accolade for something that I already knew the answer to. ZACH: That's so real. Speaking for myself, I know that there's been multiple times where I know that I've done the research. I know I've done the homework, I know that I've done everything that's calling for me to do. And yet when I get in those rooms where you have those moments, there's always like the sneaky thing where I'm like, "ah, I really don't this, this whole thing is a sham", right? Like where I feel as if like at any point at any moment, like they're gonna pull back the curtain just kinda like where's it at the end. The one that was a great and powerful Oz. And you look behind the sheet and it's like just a regular dude. And I know for me like that's a genuine feeling of mine, right? I know that this is a relevant topic because even like on Fishbowl, which is like a, for those who don't know, fishbowl is an anonymous posting essentially like think like, um, like twitter, but there's no user names, don't know if it's completely anonymous and even we look across like, you know, when you just look at fish bowl, which I would say the predominant number of users are white folks. They talk about this all the time and like it leads to all types of issues, it's the source of so many different types of stresses and frustrations for them. They'll say things like "I'm really depressed here", and "you know, I really just felt as if anyone was going to find me out", "I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing and everyone else is an expert", and so on and so forth. I mean, I've seen people who are engagement managers and partners and directors, postings like that, right? And so I don't feel like it's necessarily something that's so isolated to me or definitely to you. And I know you've done some research on this. What insights can you share about how common or uncommon the feeling of being an imposter or just how common or uncommon imposter syndrome is? ADE: So we found a research that suggests that up to 70 percent of people, in professional settings report I'm having felt some sort of, um, anxiety related to impostor syndrome. And I know I've done personal research back in my graduate days. I'm on particularly students of color and feelings of inadequacy in school settings, but I didn't really find any that, that spoke to the experiences of underrepresented groups in corporate America. I would venture to say that the present is of those particular groups that are higher for people who are already one of the few where you find yourself being the only black person. The only black woman, the only gay person or the only the only used in the room and I've always wondered what it must be like for people of color to climb any corporate ladder because the higher you go, the less there are of us.ZACH: Straight up. No, you're absolutely right. I mean I definitely agree when you look at the data and I definitely reviewed the research that you shared and thank you for that. It didn't break it down by the "only" one in the room, to the language that you used. It didn't break it down by you know, how present that feeling must be for the only black woman or the only first generation immigrant or like ow much stronger those feelings must be. Because for me, when I think about imposter syndrome, I think about the fact that not only do I feel like this, but there's no one around who looks like me who I can actually have a conversation with either. So I feel like doubly alone, you know what I mean? ADE: Yeah, I do. I mean, it would be great if we had a guest who could speak on their experiences. I mean, they will need to be like, I dunno, executive at a couple of fortune 50 companies they wrote an Amazon bestseller or where does, because that won't be an entrepreneur. ZACH: Oh, you mean like our first guest of the pod, Fenorris Pearson? ADE: Yeah! We're going to get it to her interview with the first guest of our show, Fenorris Pearson. ZACH: Hey, y'all went back and as I said we have for Norris s'mores. Welcome to Living Corporate.!First official show you kicking us off, how does it feel?FENORRIS: It feels great. Feels great, man. Excited. And I'm excited to be a part of this groundbreaking podcast show. ZACH: I appreciate it, man. So you and I have a history. We've, we've worked together. You've been a mentor of mine for years, but for those who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit of your story? Let's just start about how you got into corporate America. FENORRIS: Absolutely. So I come from, I grew up in a family of 10. Seven boys, three girls. Grew up in the projects. I was the first one and they only one want to get a college degree andcertainly our postgraduate degree in business and organizational development. I always aspired, even though it was a pretty good athlete, there was a division one scholarship athlete, student athlete, a lot of success in basketball, I was always inspired to be a businessman. So I, graduated and moved into a corporate America. I always believed in myself, but I know God always has provided grace and favor in my life. So as I entered into corporate America, um, it was one of those things where I had goals, I had certain aspirations to get to. Certain things were more important than anything I wanted to not lose myself, who I am, and who I was as an individual as I aspired and as I transitioned into bigger roles and bigger responsibilities within corporate. So I became, be at the age of 38, the youngest senior vice president, African American executive at that at Motorola. I became a senior vice president of organizational development in Motorola, had over 300 some employees that worked for me around the world. And that was after, at that time I was probably in my... I was 38, but I had probably been with Motorola for about six, seven years. Ended up transitioning from Motorola to go and work for Dale. And I worked for the number two man at Dell who reported to Michael Dell. And that was a huge experience as well too. So before the age of 40, I was a part of two fortune 50 companies that I was a senior level executive and two of the biggest companies in the world before the age of 40. So getting there was an interesting journey to the point where it sparked me to run a book. And the book was called "How to Play the Game at the Top" and that was inspired in my conversation that I had with one of the most senior executives in the world, this guy was the founder and the visionary of a phone called the Razor. Many out there may recall this phone, it was a thin, sleek, they called it the razor and it was one of their iconic phones within this time and I was part of the leadership team, the executive leadership team to develop and put that phone on the market. So am I hitting what you want to talk about? ZACH: Absolutely. This is exactly what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to hear essentially how you got here. And so your story that you're sharing the answers that question. I'm curious if you're talking about these experiences and you're working for these individuals and working at extremely senior levels, was there ever like one specific moment that you realized like, wow, wait a minute, I'm in rarefied air here. Like, this is a special position, like was there a specific moment? FENORRIS: There was two moments that I recall that I'm like, wow, OK, there were two distinct, different learnings from them. The first learning was about me standing up and sticking true to who you are, particularly from a male and from a man's perspective and just about your character, who you are and what you stand for. That story is, there's a, there's a woman tthat I had hired. She was from Kellogg. I brought her on board as a director, but she was extremely qualified and so, and, but she happens to be a minority. She happens to be a female and African American. And her and I at one point were visiting an we were taking on a restructuring of a, of a 14, 15 billion dollar business. And so my job was to begin to do an org diagnostic and assessment of the strengths, the weaknesses, what's working, what's not working, typical diagnostic stuff. And I'm, this young woman, uh, was part of the, um, the team that I would take in and we'll go on and sit down and discuss with an executive. And one particular executive really was not feeling, he time that we had set aside and that we had documented that this is when we're going to meet, this is the nature of this conversation, this is what we're going to be trying to accomplish. What are you doing this time? So it was two of us, myself in this young female who was extremely qualified and competent. And so we get into the office and this man for whatever reasons, in a bad mood. And he is, he apparently had just got back from Europe over London and was tired. But, he was very rude to us and he was extremely rude to me in front of this young African American female and the better, calmer nature of me decided to handle this individual in a professional way because the point, the decision that I had to make was what's more important? Do I continue with trying to move forward with doing this my job? Or do I sit here and let this young female who I just hired a watch me kowtow and belittle myself and lose sense of who I am as a man, forget my job or getting my responsibility just as a man and have this young woman forever look at me as a senior African, "oh, so this is what you have to do in order to be an executive in corporate America." I made a decision at that time that at no point will allow this woman's memory, ah, to be as a man and as an executive, to accepted such disrespect from this senior executive sitting across the table from me. So I said to him, I said to her, I said, I started off. I said, sir, if this is not a good time, um, shall, we can, we can come back and continue this, um, this, uh, this interview. And he was like, no, this is a good time because it's a good time, which doesn't appear to be because I'm the, I'm feeling some tension here. And then so I asked this young woman, I said, "you know, what, could you, could you excuse us?" And I said her name and he said, "no, she can stay here." [Then I said] "As you know, she's, she's my direct report and requesting that she excused herself from this conversation." And so is she excused herself from this conversation. I looked at him, I got up on the edge of my seat and I looked at it across the table and I said to him, I said, "you and I know sir, if you and I were outside of this organization, there is no way you would approach me like that because you would be fearful." I'm six, seven tall, sexy, OK. And he's about six feet. OK. And so, so my whole point to him was that, that, that you wouldn't dare approach me and this manner, and I'm, I'm not going to let this young woman's memory be a of me as a man, as a senior executive that happened to me, a man of color. I'm someone that was just allowing himself to be treated with such disrespect. OK? So, so, so that moment, Zach was a moment that, that changed my career because at this, at this point I was I was a vice president of a business unit, but not of the entire corporation. OK? So at this moment, this man changed his attitude, uh, you know, kind of backpedaled a little bit. I asked for the young woman to come back in. And, uh, we continued to interview. Now, the second aspect that I talked to you about the change when I realized I was in rarefied air, uh, as an, as an executive and Corporate America was when two days later this man calls me up and I'm like, "Oh crap, OK." You know, he's going to be on some, some, some Caucasian man stuff. And he's going to exert his power. He's going to exert his authority and you know what, I may get fired. OK? All right. So cool. So I made the decision at the time, decided to address him and I decided to ask this young woman to, to leave the room that I was willing to suffer any consequence for the sake of keeping my dignity. My mom used to always say, if you don't fall for something, you'll fall for anything. And I wasn't about to fall for having him berating me. And more importantly, have this last impression of this young woman who's at the beginning of her career, I'm thinking that she has to or she has to be a certain way besides just being who she is in order to be successful in corporate America. Little did I know that, uh, when this call came was the call was totally the opposite of what I thought this call was. And so he asked me, he, um, so first of all, his assistant called my assistant and assistant asked me, did I ask my assistant and I have done, was I available? I said yes. I picked up the phone. And um, he said, so interesting conversation Finnaris - he didn't say for "Fenorris" as my name, but he said from "Finnaris". Interesting conversation. So here's what I want to do. I want to, I want you to go on a trip with me. And so I'm like, what do you mean go on a trip? At Motorola, we had all these corporate jets and so we had these corporate jets, and so being on the corporate jet, certainly I've been on commercial airplanes, but I never been on my own private jet. And so, so he asked me to meet him, at our hanger where we keep all our corporate Jets outside of Chicago.And so I met him there and I was lgoing to say, as a lot transpired between the time of him asking me to meet him there and the conversation that we had on the phone. But I'm thinking when I get there, it's going to be a group of people I'm just going off to Sunnyvale, California. Little did I know at the time that he called me. He had just got promoted to be the president, the number two person and pretty much it as running a motor roller or he had just got promoted at that time on the phone call. I didn't know it. So when I get there at a hanger, I'm thinking it's going to be a bunch of the people that's going to be on this jet is just, it turns out it's just him and I. So we get there - and this is a true story. We get on the jet and we're getting ready to take off. So you're, you know, on a jet is, is everything in all kinds of food. So I'm trying to be cool and act Like I've been there before, but at the same time, like this big lobster over there, some shrimp, like, wow, this is nice, you know? I got my leather seats, I got plush leather everywhere, communication equipment, et Cetera, et cetera. So he said, so you're probably wondering why it's just me and you. I said, "absolutely" So we're taking off getting ready to head out to Sunnyvale, California from outside of Chicago. He said, "the reason why I put you on this, I got you on his plane because what want to share with you is something that most of us never talked to you guys about."So two words. "Most of us", meaning mostly Caucasian white men and "you guys", I'm sure everybody that's probably listening to refer it with, uh, you know, Kinda get the meaning of you guys as meaning African Americans or people of color. Never really get a chance to, um, understand how we operate. And so I got on a plane because it's going to be my word against your word. I have no idea how you may react to what I'm about to say to you. But, um, what I want you to know is when I spoke with you and I came at you that I'm at that, um, at that meeting we had, it was all by design. I'm like, why? Wha? What do you mean? "I want to see how you would react to see if you would stand up for yourself. I see so many of you guys out there that are so motivated to be, um, to be, uh, to get ahead, that you will, will allow anything, ah, or had someone to do anything or say anything to you in order to get your stripes. OK? In order to get your where you feel like you belong. Rightfully belonged in. A lot of you guys depend on succession planning. A lot of you guys depend on, uh, the affinity groups like the African American group or the Hispanic Mba group, that those groups are going to allow you all to be in a certain, um, I'd be a part of certain conversations." So as I'm listening to this, I'm like, I can't believe I'm hearing all this. So he's like, "what I wanted you to know is that it was a test" and a little did you know that at that time I saw you got promoted to the president of this business unit, this business. And it happens to be the biggest business unit in Motorola. Motorola was probably about a 55, $60,000,000,000 business. So one of the biggest business units in the world. And I was certain he says he's the number two man in control. And so, um, so he said "what I wanted to do was to see if you will stand up for yourself. I wanted to see because most of you guys to try and aspire in to the next levels, you lose a sense of who you are and what you're all about. Some of you guys even change your voice. You even change your voice." This is interesting coming from, from a white man, this white man, it's assessing and able to have been around enough by people to know. And if we're all real, we all know some people. And just because that to them, just because we change our voice means that we're, we're trying to be like them or not. That's how they accepted. Some of us may talk proper, all right? And so there's nothing wrong with them, but from his perspective, OK. And so this is his thought process, but he continues, "even some of you guys try and change her voice to be in, to feel like you're, you know, you're more accepted with us. What really sparked my interest to have you on my team was that you stood up to me because I'm trying to build a team with this new role that I just got. I don't want yes-people around me and I don't want people to just tell me what they think I want to hear because that doesn't do me any good. "He continues, "I've also been inspired in my life by two African Americans" and I'm like, wow, this is really getting great. Keep in mind we're 30, 40,000 feet up in the air. We're on a plane talking about this is that there's these two African American men. I said, so why me? Why me? He says, "there were two African American men in my life that inspired me, right? What most of my white counterparts don't know is that I grew up poor. I grew up with a single mom. All right? Because of my white male. See me. They see me, they see the wharton school, a business school, they see a harvard, they see all those degrees. But what they don't understand this, that, you know, I had a single mom that raised me. And then so I had two African American men that, that, that, um, uh, sowed some seeds into my life that inspired me to not do bad things because my mom worked all the time. And I was out in the streets getting into trouble and these two African American men on the boxing gym out in New Jersey and they, and they, you know, they just took me in and they gave me, they made me, you help me become more disciplined. And I was so appreciative of that because it wouldn't have been no telling what I would've done." I kind of referred to him as rain man, if anyone ever seen the movie rain man, he was half genius and half crazy. So, so that experience that he had always inspired him to want to do something and give something back to a minority because those two, those two men changed his life to the point where I thought it was bs in down the road, but he even donated money back in New Jersey to named schools a school after this man, after these men. So he put up hundreds of thousands of dollars donated so the school could be named after these two men. So as he's telling me, the reason why we're on the plane is because it's my word against your word and this is stuff that we would never ever talk to you about how, how we do things, how, how things go down, how decisions get made. There are meetings before meetings...that the meetings before the meetings proceed and take decisions are made before we actually get into the meeting that was supposed to be making the decisions and you understand what I'm saying? You guys are never exposed to those things. What I want to know if I want you to, I want you to know someone on my team and what you need to understand that there are consequences for, for that there are, there are good consequences and there are consequences that, that just happened and the light, but corporate. So explain to me what he meant by that is that, for example, he talked to me about the difference between mentors and sponsors. He said, "what I'm offering you is not to be your mentor, but to be your sponsor." A mentor is someone is going to provide coaching, provide guidance, helped you prepare for an interview. A sponsor is someone that's going to say, "that's my guy."I'll give you give you an example. When I left Motorola and went to Dell, typically you would go through an interview process where - particularly people of color - you're going to meet, you're going to go two or three times. I interviewed one time and I interviewed with Michael Dell and no one else and my salary, my sign on bonus. I had a sign on bonus about $300,000. I had a golf membership at a country club out at the place that we built is built the place outside of Texas Dell headquarters since in round rock, Texas and build a 10,000 square-foot home out in Lake Travis. I had everything. OK. But my point here is not on the material things. My point is under the process or how they do stuff and trying to help people understand the difference between the mentor and sponsor. The fact that he sponsored me, only have to see one person. I didn't have to go through all of these interviews, all of these parading me then come back here, come back for the next round of interviews.That's the process that they typically take us through. But how they do, if they bring someone in that they want, they don't have to go through that process. They don't have to go through. And if they do go through several interviews, you can bet it's just, it's just a formality there justtsomething to make it look like it's a competition for the job, but they've already made a decision. That's the difference between mentors and sponsors. And he wanted me to Kinda understand that he was offering me something totally different from what I ever even thought about. I always thought the name of the game was mentorship, right? I always thought the name of the game was, if you know, if you work, you and I, you know, I was smart. I thought if I work harder and smarter than you, I'm going to get promoted. That's not how the game works. We could be the smartest, we could. We know we work work harder because are who we are and how we were raised, but that's still, it's not a deciding factor. And then, so he talked to me about the difference between the electorial vote in the popular vote. I want you to understand that a lot of minorities spend their time on focusing on the popular vote in the popular vote means a, if you think about the election many, many years ago with Al Gore and President Bush, at that time, first time the whole thing ever came into play is when Al Gore won the popular vote, but he did not become the president of this country due to electorial vote, which is a lot less votes than the popular vote. OK? So his whole point from a business perspective is that sometimes we get so concerned on trying to please and make everybody happy, but when you take a step back and look at your career, there's only one or two people that could really influence and impact your career to getting it to where you want to go. And that's what he called instilled like electoral votes. And he said, what I'm offering you is an electoral vote, not a popular vote. So the question that you asked early on was, what were some of the events that that allowed me to know that I was in rarefied air? One, no pun intended, been 30, 40,000 feet up in a private jet. I'm certainly up and rarified air, but a meaningful perspective from a, from a development perspective, hearing how he explained and what he shared. And they said there like they're the reason why I'm sharing this with you on this claim this because you can't record what I'm saying. You can't. If you don't, if you think this is racist or whatever, you can't go and call a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. He sent these names for real. I'm serious because it's just my word against your word and it gives you a word and one of the things that you should understand is never, ever dance between two big two elephants. Because if you dance between two elephants, you might get crushed. And what he was saying is, is that you know, if you choose to, if you choose to make this a big deal, then it's going to be my word against your word and I have my word and as I have a whole corporate hr machine that's behind me, and you may, you may get your impact. You may get your story out, but at the same time it's my word against your word and I think we could understand how that would end so that those were two major events that changed my mind. That made me really know that while I was in rarefied air. Amazing stories that has really guided the way that I lead and the way that I now transition from corporate world to a entrepreneur world where I'm the CEO of a company called pursuit of hope. This is a whole different background from, um, from the corporate world and being executive into an entrepreneur and that's a whole different... a segment that you can do down the road since transitioning from corporate to be an entrepreneur and just huge differences there. And how success in one area doesn't necessarily equate to an another area is totally different thought process and that's something that I'm more than willing to share about my experiences. ZACH: Those are amazing stories. I have like two more questions for you. So you know that we're talking about my imposter syndrome today. Essentially that's just a feeling of inadequacy or that you're somehow out of place and a space that everyone else from your perspective clearly is rightfully placed in. So did you ever feel that way? Do you ever. Did you ever feel like you had to battle imposter syndrome? And if you did ever feel that way, how did you manage those anxieties and kind of keep that stuff at bay? FENORRIS: So I think that's a great question. First of all, to be totally candid with you, that question goes back to how I was raised. I never felt like just because I was an African American man that I was less than or better than anybody because my mom always raised me up...my mom used to refer to me and my older brother that grew up together as - and it sounds corny - but, she would refer to us as my Kennedy boys. And so I'm like, my mom is my mom thinking me like the Kennedy Boys. And this is me. I was like eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. My mom, because I knew who the Kennedy boys were talking about, Robert and about John. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about some very successful people. So my mom said that in her own way to make us feel good about ourselves and to make us, you know, where our self esteem about ourselves and she always taught us that we wasn't a better or worse than anyone. And so those, that mindset, um, traveled with me in every aspect of my life and every aspect of the involvement in my career now to proof of that is when I got tested and I didn't know I was getting tested as I told you all about this story because what he had observed was a, I'm a person who was truth in it to themselves and a person who had a tremendous amount of influence in the organization that, uand we'll talk about a skillset. I didn't at that time when this man talk to me with this young African American woman in his office, I didn't have to know the, the corporate a title than the big corporate type of foot on time for the business unit did, but not for the entire corporation. And what I learned that is that you don't always have to have the power or title that title in the organization in order to have the biggest impact on the organization. Because of the fact that I stay true to who I am, who I was, and that I didn't compromise and if I can give the people who are, are aspiring and trying to, um, you know, in a corporate position, they're struggling, they don't know where they're not promoting a shameless plug here, mark my book, "How to Play the Game at the Top", a book that's on Amazon, where people can go and read more new and pretty much you're going to hear the same stuff in it, but a lot more detail about what I'm talking to you guys about your career now and how to progress further, which really comes down to being true to yourself. Never ever compromise who you are just for money or just for to get a title or just to fit in, because it may pay off in the short term, but the thing that I can do and look back at all of myexperience in corporate and say that I'm very, very pleased with the the decisions that I made and why I made them because there's nothing worse than feeling like you gained something at the expense of losing something. ZACH: Man, that's amazing and this is really powerful Fenorris. I really appreciate this man. I was going to ask if you had any plugs but you already plugged your book to Amazon bestseller, "How to Play the Game at the Top". And I wanted to reinforce that because as you know, I read it some years ago. Great read. We will have the things that we've referenced in this conversation on during this podcast. We will have all those things and make sure you actually look at our descriptions. You will see a link for how to play the game at the top in the description. So you can go ahead and check that out as well. Fenorris, I just want to thank you for joining us today. FENORRIS: Hey, thank you guys for being able to allow me to be a part of this. I really believe it's a groundbreaking show. More importantly is just it just thankful to you guys to want to put together a podcast like this here and so you guys could be doing a lot of other other things besides trying to educate andmake people aware of the challenge, challenges and opportunities as they grow in starting career. And so I thank God for you guys having an vision to put together a program like this. ZACH: Man. Thank you for Fenorris. We're going to go ahead and take a break. We come back, we'll have it back in the studio. We'll talk about this discussion and then we'll continue on with the show. ADE: That was a dope interview. ZACH: Yeah, I liked it. ADE: Yeah. In my little story at first I thought to myself like, wow, this is a really, really unique story. Like a great journey. Yet, at the same time, so much of it resonated with my own experiences, like even now in the earliest stages of my career, you know? ZACH: Absolutely. I was glad he was able to make the show really, really interesting stories and I hope he comes back. ADE: For sure. Um, OK. So now let's get into our next segment, which, you know, I kind of enjoy. It's called favorite things. It's where we talk about, um, what our favorite things are these days we can, you know, big up yourself a bit. ZACH: Absolutely. OK, well let's go ahead and get started. I'll start first. You didn't invite me to start, but I will start.ADE: The floor is yours.ZACH: Thank you. OK, so yes. So my favorite thing right now has to be mumbo sauce is now listen. So for those who don't know, for all of my southern gentleman and uh, and women in the audience listening, listen, mumbo sauce is like this sweet spicy sauce that originates out of the DMV and yeah. So, um, our favorite cousin, our favorite big cousin, favorite Auntie, she was on First We Feast, which was hot ones hosted by Sean Evans. Shout out Sean Evans, hot ones. All y'all. Anyway, she's on the show and one of the first things she eats is covered in this stuff called mumbo sauce. And so I'm, I'm taking, I'm tasting, I'm, I'm fast forwarding - first off all I did not taste the mumbo sauce - this is when I first heard about the mumbo sauce. Let's be clear. Then I was like, eh, maybe, I don't really know. Whatever, whatever. Cool. So then you know, because the feds always watching on facebook and I see a mumbo sauce and I'm like, what is going on with his mumbo sauce? So then I see a Facebook ad and it literally said, "Taraji P. Henson endorses mumbo sauce on hot ones with Sean Evans. You like Taraji P .Henson, you should buy mumbo sauce. I was like, golly. I mean I was kind of creeped up that it was so on point and that it clearly, it was watching my activities... but at the same time, I was like, well sang. I mean you, you are right. I, I did like Taraji p Henson in that interview and I am a Taraji P Henson Fan. I do like SOS. Let me buy some. So I bought three bottles of this mumbo sauce. I know, right? And I'm on my last bottle, but listen.. Don't judge me - well you can judge me. That's fine. It's delicious. I actually will put up with the scrutiny. It's great. I put it on everything. Anyway, so I got a two for one. So my other favorite thing right now is this upcoming captain America Comic. I love comic books and so there's a new run starting with captain America and it's been written by the Don Ta-nehisi Coates. So those are like my favorite thing is right now. What's up? What you about it? ADE: So first of all it's Ta-nehisi Coates. I just wanted to hit you with the. Well actually, ZACH: Wow. I'm Embarrassed.ADE: I can't let you be out here just like meg league his name. You know ZACH: that's true though because he is a hero of mine. I don't even know how to say his name.. It was a great point. . ADE: All right. Um, that's random by the way. I want you to know that that's like the weirdest. "Oh yeah. By the way, I'm shouting out mumbo sauce for the week." So my two favorite things this week and I don't know why we're sticking to two, but it's probably for the best because I'm indecisive. So currently actually, literally, you know how when you're on the Internet and be like, what's to the left or the right of you to the left of me is this book, I don't know if he can hear it. It's called a children of blood and bone by telling me it. I mean, um, and as a voracious reader, as a long-time lover of the written word, um, I can tell you right now that she could have all of my clients, like she can literally have all of them every last day. Um, you know, why? Because this will, I can write her booty off. I'm reluctant to even say, booty. ZACH: This is a clean show. So keeping going. ADE: Yes my mom may be listening to this. But yeah, like if you're looking for a new literary suggestion, if you need a new book, if you are a consultant or you're traveling for days out the week and you need a book to take on the plane with you, it might really only last you depending on how fast you read two trips, but it's absolutely worth it. I think my second favorite thing is I've been sick this week and anyone who knows me actually noticed that I have a deep and abiding love of, but it's just like sky rocketed to the top of last of the favorite things this week because my word is good but it is so good and I was down for the count but you know, fa. And since your tea really held me down so it doesn't have to things for the week. ZACH: Do you have any shout outs? ADE: Yes. Um, so shout out to us first of all because I feel like we're dope. We put an amazing thing together and even if you know, this is just us talking to ourselves. This is still like one of the dopest projects had been on. Yeah, we put this whole thing together in less than a month. Bask and how amazing that is. ZACH: I feel the exact same way that I was going to be my shout out to like, shout out to us straight up. We've got a team of five and like they're all going to be on the show. They're all gonna be, they're all leading and participating in like heavily involved because it takes a lot to get this machine up and going. It's all. ADE: One more shout out, one more shout out. I have a new nephew in my life, um, because name is Haleem and he is the absolute, like the brightest star in the night sky right now and I'm just so proud and so happy to have him at the moment. ZACH: No, no, that's dope. That's dope. You know what, in fact, let me go ahead and shut out my nieces and nephews. We can go ahead and put them on a shout out to my nephew Aaron and then shout out to my niece Alayna. They are absolutely wonderful. So, uh, yes, that will actually be the Hashtag for this show. #auntieuncle swag. So thank you all for joining us. My name is Zach.ADE: And I'm Ade.BOTH: Peace.

In our teaser, Zach, Ola and Ade introduce the Living Corporate Podcast, where we will be discussing topics relevant to black and brown people groups within the Corporate American context. Length: 00:02:16Hosts: Ola | Ade | Zach