On the ninth installment of Tristan’s Tips, our esteemed guest Tristan Layfield shares a few tips on how to gain skills without going back to school and potentially running up costly student loan debt.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumeTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, let's talk about how you can gain new skills without going back to school. Sometimes we utilize the skills we currently have to their maximum capacity or we need to learn something new in order to advance our careers, but we don't want to go back to school. I get it. School is expensive, and it isn't getting any cheaper any time soon, so here's a few ways you can gain some new skills without going back to school. First, consider professional certifications. Maybe you want to get into project management. Consider taking a project management professional PMP course and certification exam, or if you want to get into HR, maybe you can work towards a Professional in Human Resources certification. Next, utilize the internet. Places like Coursera and Skillshare, among many others, offer free and low-cost courses to gain new skills. Also, let's not discount YouTube University. Not only can you utilize YouTube to learn a specific task you need to complete, but there are even whole courses on YouTube. Next, consider entrepreneurship. I think many people discredit the skills you can learn through entrepreneurship. Take me for example. In my business, I didn't just learn more about recruiting and resumes. I learned digital marketing, social media marketing, more operation skills, bits of accounting, sales, and so much more. While this may not have been taken into account previously, this idea of intrapreneurship or having an entrepreneurial mindset while working in corporate is taking off, so skills gained like this are becoming more valuable. You can also utilize entrepreneurship to break into new industries that you've been trying to get into in order to gain some experience. Next, consider internships. I know working for free or at a discounted rate is not usually what we want to do, but sometimes experience is just the best teacher. It can also open new doors if you give it your all. This is also a great way to break into new industries. So those are just a few ways you can gain some additional skills without heading back to anyone's campus and amassing student loan debt. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

On the eighth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield touches on the difficulties of finding jobs in a new location. He offers three useful tips to help navigate the process.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumeConnect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's poppin', y'all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna talk about how to find a job in a new location. Sometimes we find ourselves in a position where we want or need to move to a new city, but one of the hardest things to narrow down is a new job, so I'm gonna provide a few suggestions to get you well on your way. #1, localize your hiring info. Maybe you have an address in the new city or maybe you'll have a friend that will allow you to use theirs. Put that on your resume and application. Recruiters narrow down their searches using geographical locations, and many in larger cities rarely entertain out-of-state candidates, so by changing your address you have a better chance of being seen. This tip also applies to your LinkedIn profile, and if you're worried about your phone number giving you away, then get a Google Voice number with a local area code. #2, attend regional conferences and events. Many organizations that have national conferences typically host regional conferences and events as well. Try to get to the city and attend those, as they will be filled with people who are in your industry and in the city you're trying to move to. So make some connections, and then begin leveraging them by setting up informational interviews, fostering real relationships, and maybe even asking for a referral. #3, spell out your move in your cover letter. So for those who can't localize their info or can't get to those regional conferences and events, you want to spell out your move in your cover letter. Many employers may assume that you just seeking relocation fees, which you might be, or that you're just sending your resume across the country, so you want to make sure that you calm their fears by starting your cover letter with something like, "As I prepare for my cross-country relocation to XYZ City." This is short, sweet, and gets the job done up front. Finding a new job in a new city can be a tad bit difficult, but if you prepare before going on your job search, you can make the process a bit more manageable and potentially land that job in the city where you want to move. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the pleasure of speaking with mentor, entrepreneur, and businesswoman Kethlyn White to expand on our Season 1 self-care discussion. She shares both her personal career and hair journey and talks about the business she runs with her friend, Coil Beauty.Connect with Kethlyn on LinkedIn! https://www.linkedin.com/in/kethlynawhite/Check out Coil Beauty! https://coilbeauty.com/Click here for more Living Corporate! https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, check it out. Y'all know by this point in Season 2--wow, that is crazy. It's been over a year. It's Season 2, and y'all know from time to time we'll have, you know, B-Sides where we just kind of have a real talk conversation with a special guest, and listen here, today's special guest is pretty special. She's pretty great, is pretty talented, and I'm excited to have her here. Actually, she was one of the first black women that I ever have worked with in consulting. Great background. She and I met in person, and she has a great story. We talked a lot about, like, strategic change management at the time and just kind of navigating these spaces. She has been a great mentor to me. She's one of the main reasons that I was able to be promoted to manager at my last job, which helped me transition to my new job, and yeah, she's great. I don't want to spoil too much. I'm gonna go ahead and introduce her. She is a mentor, a public speaker, a businesswoman, an entrepreneur, a creative, right? Her name is Kethlyn White. That's right, y'all, Kethlyn. So right, so Kethlyn, right, it's, like, a combination of, like--it's black, but, you know, it passes the resume test. Like, you'll still--you will still interview a Kethlyn, right? So it's a really nice combination there. Kethlyn, what's up? How are you doing?Kethlyn: Hey, Zach. Thanks for having me. I'm glad I--I'm glad I passed your sniff test.Zach: No, no, no. It's not my sniff test you need to pass. You know what--[both laugh] Kethlyn will make it past the resume test. It's not like a LaQuanda is my point. And Zachary of course is very respectable. Like, Zachary--I mean, how many black Zachs do you even know? You live on the West Coast, but, like, do you know a lot of black Zachs?Kethlyn: I don't.Zach: Exactly. So that with being said, today we're talking about black, and we're just talking about self-care and what that really looks like practically. A lot of times, you know, we talk about--we talk about self-care, we talk about--we talk about it from the perspective of natural hair becausae it's an easy entry point into self-care, but I'd like to really, Kethlyn, give you some space to kind of talk about yourself, talk about your journey, talk about some of the things that you've got going on, and then we can go from there. How does that sound?Kethlyn: That sounds good. So tell me where--tell me where you want to start. You know, self-care, especially in the black community, is a very large topic, and it could cover a wide range of things. I probably would need more than just a podcast episode to really dive in.Zach: Big facts.Kethlyn: Where do we want to start?Zach: You know, that's a really good question. How about we start with your journey in terms of, you know, your transition from, you know, adolescence and high school to college to then--you know, again, I don't want to tell too much, but I know that, you know, you spent some time out of the country and you came back, and you've continued to grow, and your personal image and how you manage your image has continued to grow and shift as you've been in Corporate America. I think that would be a really cool story to tell.Kethlyn: Okay. Well, I mean, from adolescence 'til now would probably be, again, another novel, so we could probably cut it back, but I think it is an interesting point to talk about, you k now, how do you grow with yourself, especially within not just what you're doing individually but how you do and how you grow within your job, your entrepreneurial ventures, et cetera. So, you know, for me, you know, I was blessed to go to Spelman College. Well, [I went to] two HBCUs actually. I started at Hampton and I transferred to Spelman, but one of the wonderful things about going to a historically black college is that you really are left with this sense of beauty in all shapes and sizes with people who look like me, who have my skin color and who therefore have very similar experiences. And we all have different backgrounds. We all are completely different people, but leaving an HBCU, you leave with a sense of pride that no one is allowed to take from you, and it gave me--it boosted my self-confidence that I didn't have going to predominantly white schools as I matriculated, you know, teenage years, right, all the way through high school graduation, and it was extremely impactful for me as I started to navigate the corporate world and entrepreneurship, and one of the biggest legs up I found was that, you know, when it comes to self-care, a lot of that starts at the root with how you manage your time and manage your space, and it's not easy to do, because when you start on your first job, when you start taking on and tackling, you know, your first venture, you find that there are a lot of people who don't look like you when you're a black person, and because of that you end up with a lot of different, sometimes negative, experiences. Sometimes it's hard to feel comfortable, it's hard to not feel so challenged. So having that spirit already from the HBCU provided me with a support system that I couldn't pay for, and so it really did--it really did make a big difference for me as I started to do and started to grow into my roles. I started out in consulting, one because I love technology. My mom, who is a boss in the technology space, she was a CEO of a tech company for about 15 years and now sits on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper, you name it, right? And the list will go on and continue. So, you know, she was a huge influence to me, as well as with my dad, around making sure that--you know, they always told me I can do whatever I wanted to do, and I knew I wanted to be in technology 'cause it was the space that it was always going to be there, so I wanted to understand it. [?] an engineer. I didn't really have an interest in being an engineer, but I loved how engineers think, right? So I wanted to be in the space, and I went specifically into technology consulting because I was gonna get my hands dirty. That was awesome, and so I enjoyed Capgemini out the gate, and man, do they let you get your hands dirty, and I'm talking about drinking from the fire hose.Zach: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Kethlyn: Very quickly. And, you know, so you're balancing and managing how to learn how to do that and start your new job and all that good stuff while also managing your space. So I had to set some rules for myself around how I was going to navigate. I had to make sure that I was networking and getting to know people within, you know, my company while also knowing that there might be some boundaries there that I will have to set for myself because I'm not as comfortable in different areas. So it was an interesting journey, but again, you know, my foundation was set, so from there I really was able to, you know, take it a bit further, and, you know, my self-confidence and my comfort level with who I was as a black woman really made a huge difference as I navigated the workforce, and you can probably ask anyone who I joined and started with. They knew who I was. I commanded every room I went in, and it was not necessarily because of my skills, it was moreso because of--obviously that was a part of it, but it was moreso because of the presence I had in the room, and that presence came from me understanding what my self-worth was out the gate. So no one was going to be allowed to determine that for me. I don't care whether I was taking meeting minutes in a meeting or I was facilitating a session, right? No matter what it was, I commanded that space and that presence, and that allowed me to not only grow very quickly, get promoted very quickly and network really well, it also afforded me opportunities to travel and ultimately move to Australia for an awesome four-year opportunity after I got married. So, you know, that's--I think that's at the root of where a lot of my, you know, self-awareness comes from as a black woman is, you know, what my parents and family instilled in me, plus, you know, the foundation that an HBCU provided me.Zach: So that's really dope, right? And can we--and I want to double down on the part that you said that, like, everyone who--when I was working with you, and I think that, you know, continues forward of course, is that, you know, it's like, "Hey, Kethlyn knows who she is. She knows what she's about, and no one's really gonna shake her from that." Can you talk a little bit about how your appearance and, like, how you managed--how your hair journey, like, came into play with that, like, from--yeah, from graduating Spelman to then, like, I don't know, today.Kethlyn: Sure. Well, I think it's important to mention that, you know, yes, I am that way now, right? I had to grow into that person. It just so happened that going to an HBCU really helped, you know, catapult me into that. But I still had my awkward--all kinds of awkward phases, especially when it came to my hair, 'cause God bless my mom. She just did not know, right, how to do it, because, you know, unbeknownst to most people, all African-Americans, we all have different types of hair, right? We don't all come out with the same type of hair. We have different curl patterns, different textures, different thickness, right? My mom's hair is extremely bouncy, right? It is very bouncy. She's got these big spirals. So when I came out, you know, she was looking at me--I had a huge head of hair. It's definitely tighter curls, but it wasn't just that. It was the fact that the texture was different. So very early on she permed my hair, and it's not rightly or wrong. she didn't know what to do, right? And she--and her mom and her family, they all had--they didn't have that type of hair. They didn't know what to do. So she permed my hair, and it was straight, and for, gosh, all the way up until I went to college, I stayed perming my hair because that just seemed like what I needed to do in order to get it straight, and at that point in time, straight was all I really saw. My mom's hair was wavy, so even when she had her curls [up], her hair was still semi-straight, and because I grew up in fairly monotonous areas, I still saw a lot of straight hair, and even with my family--a lot of the black women in my family, they also had perms or, you know, would press out their hair, et cetera. So I saw never really saw curls in their natural state on different types of people. I just didn't see it. I wasn't exposed. So when I went to school and I kept trying to keep up that perm process, first of all, that stuff is expensive. It is very expensive. I had--you know, there was only so much I was going to be able to do. My parents would side-eye me when they would see some of these bills and they would think--I was absolutely blessed. My parents were able to support me through college, but they were not trying to hear anything about this hair care stuff. They were, "You need to figure that out." So I stopped perming my hair, and then I just got it pressed, and I remember talking to one of my hairdressers in Atlanta once I transferred to Spelman. She was like, you know, "Why did you perm your hair in the first place?" I said, "I don't know. It's just what happened." So then she started showing me how I can do things without perming my hair, so then I was straightening it, right?Zach: Right.Kethlyn: But again, that's just what I did. Fast forward, move to Australia, and I didn't realize how humid Australia was, but I also didn't think about it. I don't know where I was in my mind, right? But I did not consider the fact that there were not gonna be many African-Americans--forget African-American, people of different types of color, right, over there in different parts of the world.Zach: Right, but you have the aboriginals.Kethlyn: Yeah, you do have the aboriginals. They do--they live in specific places, and that's a whole separate podcast conversation, and that is an absolutely an issue in Australia, but I'll have to put a pin in that. But either way, there wasn't a lot of different types of cultures, especially when it came to hair, so I spent a couple months over there just trying to find somebody to even help me with my hair because I didn't know what to do, and, I mean, I had hairdressers come at me with this, you know, fine-toothed comb trying to detangle. I was like, "I don't know what you're doing with that. There is nothing you're gonna do with that on my head, because you're just gonna break it in my hair." And so after about three or four tries of that I just said, "You know what? Forget it, this isn't going to work. Obviously I can't wear my hair straight. I'm gonna have to figure out what it looks like when it's curling. So me and YouTube all day, that's what it was, and one of my favorite, you know, YouTube channels was Natural85, mostly because not only was she making her own products, she made it very easy for me to understand what she was doing. And to be fair, her--I don't have the exact same hair texture she did, right? So I knew I was taking a risk by trying some of the stuff, but I did it anyway, and I made everything. I made the shampoos. I made conditioners. I made gel. I did it all, and because I was in Australia nobody knew what my hair was supposed to look like. I went through this really weird, awkward, "I don't know what my hair is doing" probably for, like, a year and change, and nobody knew any better because they didn't know what it was--people would be like, "Oh, Kethlyn, your hair's so cool." I'm like, "Little do you know I look crazy." But it was--it was definitely liberating, and then once I kind of saw what my hair was doing I was like, "Oh, this is great," right? You know, I could start to see how amazing my hair really is, because it can do all the things. Yeah, sure, I can have it straight, but it can be curly, I can twist it up, I can braid it, I can let it be out, I can [?] it if I want to, and I was like--it was an empowering and inspiring thing for me to just get in there in my scalp and really figure out what was going on. So that's really how my journey came to be with my hair, and it was just an extension of me learning about and embracing my self-confidence and my identity and who I was. It was just another level, right? 'Cause we continue to evolve, right? So this was just another piece of my evolution, connecting more to my hair and my [crown?] in this space, and it was awesome.Zach: It's just incredible for me, Kethlyn, to watch you, 'cause I was like--'cause by the time I saw you, like, you were kind of, like, at the end--not the end, but you were at a different part of your journey when you and I met, right? 'Cause when I met you, you--Kethlyn: Yeah. You mean specifically with my hair and my awareness? Is that what you mean?Zach: Right, right, right. So I saw the glory, but I didn't see all the story--you know, I wasn't there for the story, you know what I'm saying?Kethlyn: Mm-hmm.Zach: And so, like, you know, your hair was all big and stuff. I was like, "Oh, wow. Her hair's just like my wife's. Oh, wow. That's amazing." [?]. That's really what's up. Okay, so now as you've continued forward, you know, let's talk a little bit about some of the business ventures that you're involved in and that you've started kind of, like, as an extension of that. Kethlyn: Sure. So actually, funny enough, when I was in Australia going through this, my best friend Aisha. So Aisha Bates, she went to college with me, she went to Spelman with me, and she came to visit me in Australia. We are--she is definitely my travel partner in crime. So when I was moving to Australia, I mean, she's looking at tickets. She's like, "All right. Well, I'm coming." So she came, and she saw where my hair was at that point in time, and she was like, "You know, Kethlyn, your hair looks great," and I'm like, "Thanks. Honestly, I feel like that this is just the start, and I feel like it's still in this awkward phase, but I'm enjoying figuring this out." Huge caveat here. I had the time, right? It was just my husband and I over there. [?], right? So my hair at that point in time was kind of like my kid. It took a lot of time, so I want to make sure that's clear, because not everybody has all that time to spend, and Lord knows if I had half of what's going on what I do now then it probably would have taken me at least a good 2-3 years to figure it out. So that's just my huge caveat. When she came to visit me, she was like, "You know, I'm gonna try to do this back, you know, in the U.S. Obviously you're having a hard time here 'cause there's nobody, right? And there's no beauty supply stores and no help." So she went back home to Chicago at the time, and she started going through her own journey, and it was struggle, right? She was [?]--she was subscribing to all of the boxes and everything and, you know, just like, you know, a lot of people will tell you, right, they're a product junkie. You know, you open your bathroom cabinet and there's, like, 20 million things in there. And, you know, she remembered--she had a very vivid memory at the time where she went to a beauty school just looking for conditioner. I think she might have gone in there, like, just having washed shampoo out of her head, 'cause she ran out of conditioner. Because, you know, for a lot of people, we use a bottle per condition, depending on how much hair you have, right? And so she walks into the beauty supply store, and, you know, it's a little dingy, a little dark, but whatever. She just needs to get conditioner. And the person who was there supposedly was helping her, right? But who owned the store was really not giving her any information. She was like, "I need some conditioner. This is the type of hair I have," and they're kind of like, "Well, here's the aisle," right? And the aisle has, like, you know, 50 eleven products, and she's like "Which one?" And she started to describe her hair. They had no idea, right? They're like, "There's the aisle," and then before she even leaves the store, you know, they point her towards weave, and she's like, "That's not actually what I want," and, you know, at that moment she really kind of felt something in her spirit. She was like, "This doesn't make any sense, plus I could probably do this better than they can do this. I have all of these products in my cabinet. I could probably sell these to somebody else better than someone else could, because I now understand," so she started Coil Beauty. You know, she--literally she just said, "You know what? Screw it, I'm just gonna do it," and so she created her business. She got a website, all kinds of stuff, right? And she was a couple months into her journey, and we were talking about it. One of the things that she mentioned is she was like, "You know, the problem is I don't know where to begin. I know I have a website, [?], these are all the things that I'm doing, but I'm not quite sure, right, if this is really the right way." [?] and all this stuff, so we started--we started vibing off of that, we started talking, and after a while, not only did, you know, what she talking about speak to me--obviously I lived through it, but there was also a part of me that was like, "You know, we could do this much better. Let's just try." So at this point I said, "Listen, I'd love to join you. I'd love to--I'd love to become a part of this journey," and so I joined her as her COO, and at that point in time I was able to not only help find, you know, a brand manager and a product manager to really help us think through this, right, I was able to bring my obviously IT expertise to it to figure out how we wanted to go through this, right? What journey we were gonna take, and it has been a journey of love and frustration and irritation. We have definitely become closer, but the best part about this is that we've created this space for, you know, African-American men and women who are looking for products that are made with them as the primary idea in mind, right? They are made for them. We carry skin care and sunscreen that's made for people with color--you know, with skin of a darker hue, right? We've gotten nail polish, right, with different colors, and it's vegan, right? Because a lot of our skin can be sensitive, right? So why aren't we thinking about that? So we carry vegan nail polishes because it's super important to us. Same thing with lipstick. We have a lipstick brand that literally all they do is make lipsticks for people who want to see bright tones, nude tones for black skin, right? Everything. And once we started digging in--and she really found a ton of different product lines that were made like that. We said, "Well, let's help them get out there. Let's give them a platform." And so, you know, once I joined her vision, it's--you know, the sky has been the limit. So Coil Beauty is definitely, you know, my love child, and I'm so excited and happy that my best friend was wanting to have me along on this journey with her. But, you know, she has definitely brought her vision to life, and I'm out here executing it for her, and we are continuing to grow, and we love it. And so we're always looking for new brands. We're always excited about what people are building. I think eventually we'll probably have a line of our own, but I think one of the best--one of the best things I've seen is, you know, friends, family, people I meet on the street, when they ask me, you know, what color lipstick am I wearing or what kind is it or, you know, what am I putting in my hair, I tell them, and I say, "Oh, by the way, here's where you can buy it." They're like, "I've never heard of this brand before," and then we give them a place to go. So it's been awesome.Zach: That sounds incredible, and that's amazing. And, you know, it's interesting because I think what we don't always consider or think about is that, like, we as people of non-white identity, we exist in a space that was not created inherently with us in mind, and so--Kethlyn: Correct, especially in the beauty space, right? Because beauty standards were European at best, so all of the stores that sell beauty products were aligned to that, and it's only within a recent year, right? Now, mind you, it's 2019, right? So it's only within the recent year that you've started to see more of a push, and that's because we've got people, you know, like Pat McGrath and Rihanna, you know, people who are taking, you know, their stuff and putting it in your face to say "We exist out here, and we're important." Not only that, "We're the ones spending the money." Zach: Right, they're the ones spending the money. We spend the money on these products that don't even--that aren't even good.Kethlyn: That don't even exist. So we're--like, there's no reason why there's not a shopping experience that doesn't have to be so painful. We want it to be fun. I shouldn't have to go into Sephora and it's, like, really hard to find someone to talk to who I can say, "Listen, I am a black woman, and this is what I'm looking for," and they're like, "Oh, yeah. It might be difficult to match--" No. You come to Coil Beauty, what we wanted to do is make it fun. Shopping is still fun. We like to play with makeup. We like to try new hair stuff. We like to see new things, discover new products, where I know when I'm looking at them, all of them were created with me in mind. So why wouldn't I want to do that, right? That's really where it came from.Zach: No, absolutely. That's amazing. No, that's super dope, and I just think again, like, anything we can do to, like, just further affirm, like, our perspective and experiences and, like, validate those needs, 'cause they're real needs. They're real, valid holes and gaps to close, right? And I mean, even, like, in the simple things around, like, Band-Aids. Like, it took me until I was, like, 23, 24 to realize that, "Oh, the color of a Band-Aid is--like, that's white skin," you know what I'm saying? Like, that's not--like, being the default comes with a myriad of privileges, and I think--and, you know, I think, like, any time we can push up against that by just simply creating platforms, avenues, companies, quote unquote movements to affirm our own identity and perspective and experience and affirm those things, like, all the better. So that's amazing. So Kethlyn, look here. Before we get up out of here, do you have any shout-outs? Anybody you want to, you know, speak to? You want to let the--we'll let the air horns go. Anybody at all?Kethlyn: Shout-out my village. My village is awesome. You know, I have--it's a beautiful thing, you know? I think that we have downplayed how important is the village is in general. So for me, between my parents and my friends and my brother and my husband and my kids, you know, these are--you know, these are all different aspects. My mentors, people I work with, my colleagues. Everyone helps shape me as a person and continues to challenge me in all of that wonderful stuff. Obviously I have to shout-out my, you know, business, Coil Beauty, which I'm so excited about, and all the brands that we carry, you know, from Mielle to [?] to Pear Nova. I love all of them. Soultanicals. There's too many to name, right? I could go on forever, but it has--it has been an amazing journey, and I'm excited to see where we go, and my business partner and, you know, the CEO and founder of my company, Aisha Bates, who's also getting married this year--so excited for her.Zach: Aye. Come on, Aisha. Aye.Kethlyn: Right? And I just--honestly, you know, shout-out to you for creating a platform in, you know, Living Corporate, because I think there's always a need to have conversations about everything. Who knows why and where and what type of impact we'll have on each other and who might listen to this and get inspired and do something else or have a question, and please let your listeners know I'm always open to questions and, you know, figuring this whole life thing out isn't easy, especially when it comes to, you know, self-care and self-confidence. It's not--you know, it's not a 20, 30-minute conversation. It's a lifetime worth of experience and challenges and hardships all rolled into lessons learned.Zach: Man, that's so real. And yes, Kethlyn, we're gonna make sure we have all of your contact information as well as Coil Beauty all in the show notes so people can click it and check it out. Now, listen, y'all. Y'all have been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. I've been your host, Zachary Nunn. You know you can follow us on Living Corporate @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. Follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then you can find us online at living-corporate.com--please say the dash--or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We have all of the Living Corporates except for livingcorporate.com. So you know what, Australia? So check it out. Not only do y'all need to do the aboriginals right--this is the second time I've said this, and I'm not playing--you need to do the aboriginals right, and you need to go ahead and give us that livingcorporate.com, 'cause somebody over there, Kethlyn, it's, like, they own it. It's, like--not the country, but, like, there's a company over there that's--like, they rent out, like, corporate space, and they call it livingcorporate.com. I'm like, "Come on, y'all can give that up." You know what I'm saying? Kethlyn: Oh, can they? [laughs] That sounds like you need to work on your negotiation skills, is what it sounds like.Zach: [laughs] Me and Ade were, like, terrifed at the thought of, like, how much money that would actually cost. I'm certain that it--there's, like, livingcorporate.com.au. I was like, "Oh, no." So anyway--yeah, they got it on lock, but anyway, thank y'all. You have been listening to Kethlyn White, mentor, entrepreneur, businesswoman, mother, wife, overall dope individual. Peace.

On the seventh entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield talks about lateral moves and debunks some common misconceptions around them. He explains how they can be a great way to expand your skill set, diversify your knowledge of the business, and help you make a name across your organization. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, let's have a discussion around lateral moves. Just to make sure we're on the same page, a lateral move is where you take a job that is on the same level or in the same band as the role you're currently in. These typically take place within the same company, but that's not always the case. Most people cringe at the thought of lateral moves because there are some pretty big misconceptions out there about them, so join me while we debunk a few of them. So the first one is "I'm not advancing my career." Well, actually, lateral moves give you a greater exposure to the business and therefore more marketability down the road. Gaining an understanding of multiple areas of the company makes you better-suited for executive roles. The next myth is "I have to start all over." So OK, while that is true--your immediate work circle will change--you have an existing network from your old role. Utilize those networking skills to have them introduce you to connects in your new world. Now, the third myth is "I'm going to be making the same amount of money." Now, this isn't 100% inaccurate. You know, lateral moves typically equal the same level, which equals similar pay, but make sure you do your Googles. Sometimes the market value of your new role is higher than your old role. If that's the case, you can use it to negotiate a bump in salary. The next misconception is "This won't be challenging." In theory, moving laterally means the jobs will have some similar aspects, but many times the responsibilities can change drastically. Maybe you're moving from having no direct reports to managing people, or maybe you'll get some larger or more visible projects. I know no one wants to start something new only to feel like they've ended up in the same spot, but I'm telling you, lateral moves can be a great way to expand your skill set, diversify your knowledge of the business, and help you make a name across your organization. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

On the sixth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield expands on why it's so important to narrow down your job search before setting off in search of new employment. He also offers valuable advice on how best to navigate the job search realm. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's poppin', y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna talk about why it's essential to narrow down your job search. Have you ever decided you were going to search for a new job, so you take your laptop out, you look at your resume, and you think, "Eh, that's fine," and then you head over to your favorite job search site, like Indeed or Monster, to start searching... then 10 to 15 minutes in, you're completely overwhelmed? Well, that's because you didn't go into it with a plan. We often set ourselves up for failure by setting our sights too wide. We say we want to work in HR, but HR is an expansive industry. You can be a generalist, a recruiter, a trainer, a manager, a director, a VP - the list goes on. The name of the game in the job search realm right now is tailoring. Yes, you could adapt your resume to all of the various roles you would apply to on a whim, but you'd be spending an endless amount of time tweaking resumes and cover letters, and that's precisely why you feel exhausted before you've even really gotten started. While many roles inside of an industry require similar skillsets, they each have their own unique requirements. By thinking too large, you tend to miss what skills you can highlight and what skills you need to brush up on to make you the best candidate in the applicant pool. So take a step back and try to figure out one or two areas or jobs that you're interested in, then develop a targeted strategy for each of those areas. This strategy includes signing up on specific job search sites, highlighting different achievements in your documents, attending certain networking events, using certain social media platforms, or even reaching out to particular employment agencies. While this process varies wildly depending on the industry you're trying to break into, by being aware of what you want, you can better prepare yourself to attain it. Remember, it's a process. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with Role Tea CEO and co-founder Mike Johnson to discuss the topic of entrepreneurship while other and what building an effective network looks like for underrepresented communities. Connect with Mike (and Role Tea) on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikecjohnson1/https://www.linkedin.com/company/role-tea/about/Learn more about Role Tea:https://www.drinkroletea.com/https://www.instagram.com/roletea/?hl=enhttps://twitter.com/getroletea?lang=enhttps://www.facebook.com/GetRoleTea/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: My grandfather was born in Mississippi and was a sharecropper on a cotton farm. With only an elementary education, he eventually moved to a small Illinois town to work for John Deere. After working for over 20 years, he established his wealth through entrepreneurship, namely real estate. "Remember," he would say to me as a child, "jobs are to pay your bills. If you want to be successful and make real money, do something else." Though he was successful, his journey was challenging and fraught with various hardship. It actually reminds me of an excerpt from a piece from Inc Magazine authored by Web Smith called "What It Really Means to Be a Black Entrepreneur in America," and I quote, "Regardless of race or ethnicity, entrepreneurs always begin at a disadvantage. However, blacks tend to need to reach levels of traction with our own money since seed money is often unavailable. This contributes to the rarity of URM entrepreneurs. Richard Kirby, vice president of Vinrock, recently compiled a list that reported a total of 23 African-American investors in the U.S. It should be of no surprise that black founders receive less than 1% of institutional capital. As important as money is the ability to realize your potential through mentorship and direction. This begins with confidence, belonging, and familiarity." End quote. Listen to that. Confidence, belonging, and familiarity. Networking is the catalyst for each of these things, but what does building such networks look like for underrepresented communities? My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: So today we're talking about entrepreneurship and what it means to be an entrepreneur as a non-white person.Zach: I'm glad that we're dedicating an episode to this. Living Corporate isn't just about working for someone else, but also we want to explore ways in which you can work for yourself.Ade: For sure, and shout-out to your grandpa. That's an amazing story.Zach: Yeah, it's inspiring for sure, and while it's impressive--you know, he built his empire through real estate in a small Midwestern town after building up decades of social equity by being in the community, right? Like, he bought homes, like, no one else was really wise enough to invest in, then he fixed them himself, then he managed all of his own maintenance on this homes.Ade: Wow. Yeah, I mean, he weaved his own boot straps out of thin air and then pulled himself up by them. Like, he's an amazing success story, no doubt. To your point, in 2019, the world is just way more connected and social, which is cool, but it also creates more invisible hurdles and roles and just stuff to navigate in being a full-time or even moderately successful part-time entrepreneur, right? And those three things that you quoted--confidence, belonging, and familiarity--those are all needed in the hyper-connected world.Zach: It's just funny, 'cause I was telling a colleague that because of that fact that entrepreneurship success is built on access to capital, which lie in relationships, that people of color are well-benefitted by having partners and backing that don't really look like them, and I remember I had this conversation, and you would think this person, like, thought that I had said, I don't know, just something, like, really racist or, like--"What are you talking about? What are you trying to say? I mean, anybody can do anything." I was like, "OK, all right. Yes, we can do anything." And it also helps to know the right people so that we can have access to things, so that we can do the things that we want. I mean, like, let's be realistic. It frustrates me sometimes when we talk about, like, success and striving to do better and building things that we don't acknowledge, like, the very real capitalist structures that exist, right? Not even that we're fighting against, but that we have to plug into to be successful. Like, come on. Like, this is America. Everybody does not--everybody with a great idea does not wake up and then work really hard towards that idea and then somehow, like, become successful. There's plenty of people out there with great ideas who work very hard who are never successful, right?Ade: Right, and because people of color often don't have access to power or the relationships or the rooms in which these bills are being made in these countries to be movers and shakers there's a bit of a disadvantage. Let's look at the most prominent black clothing brand ever, FUBU. Long story short, FUBU popped off by having a relationship with LL Cool J, and yes, that LL Cool J. He is black, but guess who else LL Cool J had a commercial partnership with? Gap. He plugged FUBU in the middle of a Gap promotional commercial, and he did it while he was rapping, so nobody who was on set or was clearing the ad afterwards really noticed.Zach: Right, and it's a crazy story, but people just forget about that and the fact that Damon John, he had a ton of creative methods to promote FUBU, right? Like, he had a ton of different ways he was kind of getting it out on the street, but it was that Gap commercial--that's the one that really got 'em on the map and really--anyone who studies FUBU and studies, like, advertising, they know about the LL commercial, right? Like, it's common knowledge that's--that was the tipping point for that brand, and so, like, the point is entrepreneurship is changing already. Like, the majority of entrepreneurs don't make it, but being someone who doesn't have advantages built on centuries of historical inequity makes it even harder. Not to say it isn't possible. I'm not saying that it's impossible at all, it's just--it's just hard.Ade: Correct. Wouldn't it be dope if we had an entrepreneur with, let's say, over a 15-year track record of successfully launching dozens of new products or services in the food and beverage media and industrial goods industry? In fact, I would love to hear from someone who has experience maybe launching a brand from concept to the shelf of three of the top ten grocery chains in the country.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest Mike C. Johnson?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns, then Sound Man supplies them] Y'all thought we weren't gonna have these air horns this season. Y'all thought. That's right. We still here with these air horns. We are here with these air horns. More fire for your head top. I'm not playing.Ade: This is really all Zach. I'm blaming it on you.Zach: Aye, drop the air horns. In fact, hold on, drop extra air horns, because we had someone who was actually from Jamaica hit us up on Instagram and say, "Please keep the air horns coming, and make them louder."Ade: Make them louder?Zach: Make them louder, so we here for y'all. We here for the people, 'cause we got it like that. We love y'all, okay?Ade: Not surprised. Not surprised in the least. All right, y'all. Keep listening for a really dope conversation.Zach: And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Mike Johnson with us. Welcome to the show, Mike. How are you doing?Mike: I'm doing good, man. How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, man. So today we're talking about entrepreneurship. So can you tell me--where did your entrepreneurial itch come from or start with?Mike: Oh, man. I really can trace it back to my early 20s. I had a couple ventures around that time that I went after. I had a website called VirtualREGallery, which was basically a website that displayed virtual tours of real estate listings before virtual tours were pretty popular. I was a realtor for a little while, and I also did some construction on the side. So I've always kind of had that aspiration to somewhat control my own destiny, but I would say what really motivated me to start Role Tea was just as I learned more about marketing and innovation, I always just had this dream to want to turn an idea or a vision to a concept and go start to finish and pretty much have complete control over how that product will come to market. So that to me has been the most gratifying part of entrepreneurship. Even to this day when I walk into a store or restaurant and I see someone, you know, drinking Role Tea and, you know, just randomly, that to this day still makes me a little excited, 'cause I'm like, "Man, 3 years ago that product was just an idea in my head, and now people can actually purchase it and consume it in a store." So that's just probably the most gratifying thing, to have that control over the idea from start to finish.Zach: That's amazing. And, you know, you talking about your previous ventures, it reminds me of another question that--you know, in season 1 we had a guest who brought up the concept of failing forward--failing quickly and failing forward, so can you talk a little bit about that concept and perhaps what some of your biggest Ls--and we'll say Ls are lessons--that you've taken in your entrepreneurial journey?Mike: Yeah, man. That's a great question. The crazy thing for me about failure that I've learned in this experience is that--you know, I've realized that you really only fail at almost anything when you quit. Like, going into this venture, you know, sometimes your mind can play tricks on you. You start thinking about the worst things that could happen and failure and whatnot, but when you get into it you realize that, man, virtually everything that happens to a business can be resolved if you have the fortitude to try to work through it. So, I mean, you know, we're no different. Like, you know, everyone talks about the great side of entrepreneurship, but man, we've had at least four or five near-death experiences with our company in 2 years. Like, you know, from running out of cash, which a lot of startups have that issue with running out of money, to, you know, having key suppliers back out last minute, literally weeks before launching into Wegmans, which is a 95+ grocery chain from Virginia up to upstate New York, to having distributors back out the last minute. I mean, all of these things have taken out other companies, but for us we just looked at it as, you know, "Okay, here's another problem." You know, "What are our options just to get past it?" And you kind of take it on the chin and move forward. So, you know, you really only fail at almost anything when you quit or when you run out of, you know, hands to play. So once you realize that and you realize that, "Wow," you know, "what happens with me and this business is largely up to my control," it's kind of empowering once you realize that. But as far as just lessons in general around business, to me the two biggest lessons that come to mind for me is--the first one is just starting as small as you can until you can completely the validate the concept, and when I say validate the concept I mean that, you know, you have a product or a concept that people are gonna want to buy, where the economics of it will actually be able to create a business, right? There's a lot of ideas out there that you can sell, but you're never gonna get the price point that you need to actually have a business. Making sure that you actually know who the consumer is. You know how to talk to them or the channels to sell to them. Those are all the things that are required to really validate a concept, and it's best to try to do that on a very small scale to start. That's definitely been a lesson that we've learned early on, and then I think the second big lesson that I've learned in this in terms of failure as well is just trying to get the business to a point where it can be self-sustainable as quickly as possible, right? So right now we're going through some pretty, you know, dramatic changes around our operations to get a little bit more margin back in house versus giving it to a supplier or an outsourced vendor, and that's just all in an effort to get our business to a point where it can pretty much eat off of what it kills, right? We can sustain ourselves based on our own selves as opposed to relying too much on outside investments. So that's a piece of advice I would give to any aspiring entrepreneur. Even if you want to raise capital, it's just good to have financial discipline to try to get your business as self-sustainable as possible as quickly as possible. So there's many lessons, but those two stand out the most.Zach: And so, you know, you've talked--you talked a little bit about Role Tea, and we're definitely gonna get into that as we get further along in this interview. I'm curious to know about your ventures. Could you--would you mind walking us through? Typically when I meet--the reason I ask your ventures is because typically when I meet entrepreneurs, they may have, like, one big thing, but they have a few other things kind of cooking around them. So I'm curious to know, what are your ventures right now?Mike: No, yeah, that is very true. We tend to have short attention spans, so it's easy to kind of get involved with different things. You know, we launched Role Tea in December, November timeframe of 2016, so we're right at the 2 years, and to be honest, man, aside from, you know, being a new father, which I actually became a father the same year I became an entrepreneur with Role Tea, that's been my primary focus. Now that Role Tea is a little bit more established in terms of distributors and it doesn't take as much of me doing virtually everything to keep it going, I am starting to get back a little bit into consulting. That's something that I did prior to launching Role Tea, so I do like to work with other startups and help them however way I can, but aside from that, man, the bulk of my focus right now is with Role Tea.Zach: What challenges do you believe that you've had as a black entrepreneur? And I ask that because in the research that Ade and I have been doing, we've noticed that there are some challenges that are unique to being a non-white builder of businesses, and so I'm curious to know, like, if you--have you run into any challenges that you believe are unique juxtaposed to your white counterparts? And if so, what are they?Mike: Entrepreneurship, just inherent in the way it is, is already built with plenty of challenges. White, black, yellow, whatever. So sometimes it can be a challenge to understand, "Okay, is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm simply an entrepreneur, or is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm a black entrepreneur?" And that can be difficult sometimes to decipher, but one challenge that I think is definitely tied to us being, you know, African-American [and own a business,] especially in the food and beverage industry. It's just the fact that, you know, we are launching a beverage brand that is--our intent is to scale to 100+ million in sales and potentially exit, so we're treating our business like a true startup, not like a family-owned business where we're just, you know, looking to sell locally and et cetera, and I think that that's a very different thing in the food and beverage industry amongst a black entrepreneur that most people would expect. So I think that just simply not having a whole lot of examples to point to of black-owned food and beverage brands that have been able to do that successfully makes it hard for a lot of people to see the vision and see the potential in our concept, and I think that's especially true primarily with investors. We've actually had, you know, pretty good success with, for example, some major retailers. We've gotten our product onto the shelves of Whole Foods, of Wegmans. Those are two of the top-rated grocery chains in the country. Hy-Vee is another one. You know, but from a business standpoint, I think that's where we've seen most of the challenge in terms of, you know, working with investors and things of that nature, and I think that's largely because there's just not a whole lot of examples of African-American-owned food and beverage brands that have done it to that level, which is what we're aspiring to do. So I'm sure that there is plenty more, but that's definitely one that I can say for certain I think is unique to us.Zach: So what advice would you give to the person who thinks, you know, entrepreneurship is an all-or-nothing thing and it isn't--they're not starting their journey because they're afraid of missing a steady paycheck?Mike: Yeah, man. That's definitely something that is--I find is very common amongst a lot of people. I struggle with that myself. The first thing is you don't have to be all in to be an entrepreneur, right? Don't listen to everything that you see on Instagram and, you know, social media. There's a lot of people out here glamorizing entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship is great, right? I spent 12+ years in the corporate world, and now I'm 2 years as an entrepreneur, so I can give you the perspective of both sides, and there's definitely a lot of advantages on the entrepreneur side, but there is nothing wrong with side-hustling it for as long as you can, right? That extra paycheck from your job is--it actually can position your business to be more successful, you know? Thankfully I have 12+ years of experience in the corporate world working for other people, learning, collecting that nice six-figure salary so that I can actually build up a savings to even have a chance to do what I'm doing now. So it's all about when is the right time for you, even if you ever want to go all in, right? All in meaning you're full-time with your entrepreneurship venture, but that's the first thing. Don't feel pressured to go all in, right? And when you go all in is another big question that I hear a lot, and it's also one that I--challenge that I dealt with, and, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. Everyone has to lok at their particular situation to know when is the right time, but I will say that there's probably about four or five things that, you know, anyone that's in that situation is looking to do, to transition, to go all in, they should be looking at. Like, the first thing is, you know, what does your business require? Like, for example, if you're gonna launch a catering business versus a restaurant, you know, they're two very different demands and requirements, right? When you're talking about a restaurant, you have to deal with a storefront, which likely comes with remodeling, et cetera. Not the typical type of thing that you can get, you know, to market on the weekends and evenings, right? Whereas a catering service, you can do that evenings, weekends. You can pretty much side-hustle that until you actually get paying customers before you even have to leave your job. So the type of business that you're looking to start a lot of times will dictate largely when you can actually go all in or if and when you can actually cut the 9-to-5 path. The other thing you've got to look at is, you know, what type of support do you have going into it, right? Do you have people, whether it's family members or friends, that can help you out early on without having to get paid, right? I mean, early on there's no cash coming in. To get it stood up, you're gonna need people to help. You're gonna need your team. What type of support do you have? If you have a pretty good support system, you may be able to go all in a little bit sooner. Also you've got to look at, you know, what are your responsibilities in terms of financially and with people, right? Are you 21 years old, no kids, no family, very low bills? You know, that gives you a whole lot more flexibility in terms of what you can do sooner and the risks that you can take, whereas if you are--like, in my situation, I started, you know, Role Tea already in my mid-30s. Like I said, I'm a father, newly father, so I have to move a lot different in that situation.Zach: Congratulations on that, by the way.Mike: Oh, I definitely appreciate it, man. Fatherhood is a lot of fun, a lot of fun. But yeah, you have to move a lot different if you have a lot of financial responsibilities and people responsibilities. Obviously you have to be a little bit more smart about when you go all in. You also might have to look at are there skills that you just don't have yet but you need to develop before you go all in, right? And then lastly, this is probably often times, you know, skipped and not really taken into consideration, but you definitely have to look at what's your appetite for risk and uncertainty, right? Once you pull the plug on that 9-to-5 and you're all in, you know, on the good side is it really motivates you to have a sense of urgency, to move forward fast, but at the same time it can also be stressful by not having that paycheck coming in every week or two or whatever it was you got paid, and that can definitely cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and if you're the type of person that doesn't deal well with that type of uncertainty and stress, #1: you're probably going to struggle as an entrepreneur, 'cause that's gonna come naturally, but that may also dictate you keeping your business as a side hustle a little bit longer. So I never tell someone exactly what to do in that situation, but I would definitely tell you that those are probably the four or five things that you should be thinking about in your situation to determine, you know, when you go all in or if you go all in at all.Zach: And so, you know--and I alluded to this earlier about some of your challenges as a black entrepreneur, but the research I was speaking to specifically had to do with the variance in acquiring capital, right? So venture capital, angel investments, and other types of non-business loan-sourced funding. I'm curious, have you had any challenges in acquiring that type of funding, and really what's been your journey in building those relationships with those with access with the capital to help your ventures?Mike: Yeah, that's a great question. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges that I'm finding with not just our business but other black-owned entrepreneurs, and it's a complex one, which I--I know that this is probably an area of business that's foreign to a lot of people, so I definitely want to make sure I kind of break this down because, you know, I have an MBA, but yet 3 years ago I didn't understand hardly anything about the idea of raising capital. I've had to learn a lot through this venture, and the challenges that are unique to African-Americans is--it's kind of a snowball effect, so let me explain it like this. So investment in startups typically happens in a progression, right? So, you know, the first step is typically money out of your own pocket, right? So that's called bootstrapping, right? Maybe you've worked in the corporate world for a number of years, you've built up some savings. Maybe you got an inheritance. Whatever the case may be, right? But you need some sort of cash to get things going very early on. That's typically the first step. Second step is you look to friends and family, right? "Who do I know in my own personal network?" Friends, family, associates, that have the means to write a $10, 20, 30, 50,000 check or more, right? That's the second step, and then once you get past that, then you get into what's called angel investors, which are typically either high net worth or high-income individuals who choose to invest in startups, right? And then lastly you get to venture capital, which essentially are, you know, funds that investors who are called limited partners, or LPs, invest in, and they then have managers of those funds look for startups to invest in, right? And they can go from $500,000 up to, you know, $100,000,000, right? They write very large checks. So that's the typical progression of a startup raising capital for their business. So let's think about that, right? Now, what we know about African-Americans is we traditionally have a lower income than non-whites. We also traditionally have a lower net worth, which is probably more significant, than whites. So going back to the very first step in that progression, right? Most of us could struggle with having the means to even bootstrap, to have that $20, 30, 50,000 just to get started, right? Because of the points that I just made, right? And if you get past that hurdle, then now you have to find friends and family that also can write that $10, 15, 20,000 check or more. Again, that's a struggle that's unique for African-Americans moreso than others because of the points that I just made. So right out the gate as an African-American entrepreneur you have some disadvantages, right? And VCs and angels, you have to get past those first couple stages typically before they're even interested in looking at your business, right? And the crazy thing about investment, the investment world, that I've learned is investors rely significantly on their personal networks to even be introduced to an entrepreneur to invest in. So they're--again, how many African-Americans have the social network, the connections that people that have that kind of means to write those checks, right? So it's a snowball effect that, collectively speaking, puts us at a disadvantage, and again, that's definitely a challenge that is well-documented. We've experienced it. Other founders that we know have experienced it, but, you know, how you deal with that is--again, I don't want to make it sound simple, but the first thing that we've tried to do is just bridge that gap in terms of relationships, right? And that's really done largely by just putting yourself out there, putting yourself in situations to meet people that can invest in your brand. So, you know, the very first angel investor that we had we met at the Black Enterprise Entrepreneurs Summit last year. We were chosen as a finalist to pitch in that competition, so, you know, we got a lot of visibility at that show down in Houston last year. We met with our first investor there, our first angel investor I should say, and, you know, months down the road after the rapport was established he decided to invest in us, right? So that was an example of where we had to kind of bridge that gap by just going out and making those connections, and then the second thing really is just--you know, you have to have the mindset that you're gonna make your startup undeniable, right? You know, if someone says no now, which we've definitely heard tons of nos, and you're gonna hear nos. Raising capital is very difficult for any startup, so you have to have the mindset that, you know, "Okay, you say no today, but we're gonna build up the traction that we need over the next 6 months to 12 months to the point where if you say no you're basically foolish," right? So you just have to make your startup--you have to make your startup undeniable, 'cause everyone likes to make money, and I think it's a little bit more of a challenge to show that we can do that, but, you know, if you can definitely demonstrate that, people will invest in your startup. It's just a little bit difficult for us for those reasons.Zach: That's just such a great point around--especially when you started--when you talked about, like, the various levels of investment, right? So I'll even use Living Corporate as an example. For us, you know, I'm one of the few people in my family even in corporate America. We don't all have money like that. I certainly would not--I don't even feel comfortable. I mean, and some of that might just be culture too, Mike. I don't feel comfortable walking to a member of my family talking about, "Hey, would you mind investing $10,000 to help us hire writers and videographers and so on, so on, and so forth," and really invest in Living Corporate. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like, just the thought of that, right? And then, you know, we had an episode again in season 1 when we were talking about family [inaudible]--like, the wealth gap. The wealth inequality gap, and there's plenty of research to show that in the next 10, 20 years, that the average value of a black home will be zero dollars, right? So you're talking about the fact that starting up and getting all this capital, for a community who has no money--like, we don't have the centuries of privilege and things of that nature to have an uncle or a second cousin who can write a check, right? And I think that's just a really good point. You know, I'm curious about Role Tea, so let's dig into that a little bit more. So first off, when can Living Corporate get a case of the tea?Mike: I'm always open to giving Role Tea to whoever wants it, so yeah, I'll let you go with the second question.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so we're good on the tea. And then why tea? Why Role Tea, and then what was the inspiration behind Role Tea?Mike: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we definitely got you on the case. No problem there. As far as the inspiration for the tea, we always say on the--we launched the tea 2 years ago, but the idea for Role Tea really started probably in my early 20s more than 10 years ago where I had the experience of losing 100 pounds, right? So, you know, I'm like 22 years old, and I get that scale shock where I go to the doctor and--I know I'm obviously way too big, but I didn't realize I had actually gone over 300 pounds, and I'm like, "Man," like, "Okay, something's gotta change." So at that point my relationship with food changed, and I learned that, you know, a lot of the traditional foods and beverages that I had consumed, that were, you know, typically less than healthy, right, if I'm creative I can remix those recipes to be better for me, still taste good, and actually serve a purpose to either help me feel better or perform better, and so, you know, over the course of the next 2 to 3 years I lost 100 pounds just, you know, changing the way I ate and exercising more, et cetera. So fast forward to 2015. At this time I was training for a boxing match. I'm a huge boxing fan. I've boxed for several years. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm passionate about boxing just as I am about business, but I was training for a boxing match in 2015, and I noticed--again, now in my mid-30s, you know, after training, what used to take a day or two to feel normal again, not feel sore, not feel stiff, was now taking 2 or 3 days, right? So I started to research beverages that I could drink--you know, not supplements, but just every day traditional beverages--Zach: Natural.Mike: Yeah, natural beverages that I could incorporate into my diet that may help, and so, you know, that's when I learned about ingredients like tumeric and ginger and, you know, green tea and tart cherries, which all have natural anti-inflammatory properties, and so I looked for options in the store, and virtually everything I saw was $6 or $7 bottles of juice, [inaudible] sugar. So, you know, my background is in innovation, new product development and launches, so I immediately saw a business opportunity. I went to a friend of mine named Corey Benson with the idea, and he has an operations background. He was running a manufacturing plant at the time, and he said, "You know what, man? Like, I see people every day that are standing up at the job for 9, 10 hours a day. They're popping Aleves. They're, you know, popping Advils and drinking Mountain Dews to deal with the soreness from just their job," right? So he immediately saw the pain point that, you know, the concept that we were thinking about would address, but he saw it from a regular 9-to-5 job, whereas I was dealing with it from a weekend warrior boxing perspective, right? So we immediately saw, like, "Wow, this whole thing around inflammation and a functional beverage that can help with that has some legs, and it probably could impact a lot of people." So from there we were ready to go. We started to research the industry a lot more in 2015 and 2016. We worked with a development company to take our recipes that we had created with tea and juice and spices, like tumeric and ginger, to basically create a product that could be sold on a shelf. We chose tea because, you know, tea is a very popular drink, and it still is. Shout-out to Guru, even though he talked about lemonade. But tea's a very popular drink, and the great thing about it is, again, you know, a lot of the options before were juices, which is more expensive. Tea is a much less expensive catalyst to use to deliver functional spices and benefits, so we figured we would be able to create a functional drink that's also affordable, right? So we're probably one of the first functional beverages in stores like Whole Foods and Wegmans that was under $3 per bottle, and again--plus I'm a huge iced tea fan, right? So that was a natural ingredient, or product, to use. So, you know, we worked through the recipe process in 2016, and we launched a product literally the night before Thanksgiving in the D.C. Metro area in 2016, and, you know, we started off just very independent, selling out of the trunk of our cars, and, you know, now we're currently sold in over 100 locations, from Virginia up to upstate New York as well as a few states in the Midwest. So right now we're just, you know, looking to continue to grow the business, bring on more partners, bring on more investors, and just see how far it can go.Zach: Man, that's incredible, man. You know, and down the road, once, you know, we get this tea and we drink it, we'll make sure to shout y'all out on the podcast on the part of our Favorite Things.Mike: Definitely. Definitely do that.Zach: Yeah, man. Now, this has been a great conversation. I really want to know where people can learn more about Role Tea and where they can get some.Mike: Yeah, yeah. So Role Tea--and that's R-O-L-E, as in, like, play your role. Role Tea is sold online, so you can see us at RoleTea.com. R-O-L-E-T-E-A dot com. We're also sold on the East Coast, primarily in stores like Wegmans as well as some independent stores in the D.C. Metro area. So yeah, check us out online, RoleTea.com. A lot of good information there. You can order right through that website. Yeah.Zach: That's what's up, man. Now, look, before we get out of here, do you have any parting thoughts or shout-outs?Mike: Yeah, I definitely want to shout-out everyone that has tried Role Tea, everyone that will try Role Tea, including you, Zach. Yeah, everyone that's worked with the brand to help get us this far, to this point, definitely appreciate the support. I definitely want to shout-out my co-founder Corey Benson. Definitely want to shout-out, you know, again, everyone that's listening to this podcast. I didn't get a chance to say this before, man, but when I first heard about this podcast and what you guys are attempting to do as far as help educate people in how to navigate, you know, the world of corporate America, I'm like, "Man, that's definitely something that's needed." Like you mentioned yourself, you're a first-generation corporate professional, right? Did I hear that right?Zach: Right.Mike: Yep, so same here. You know, first in my family to, you know, get a bachelor's degree, master's degree, corporate world and, you know, going into the corporate world I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm ready for success based on my education," but I quickly learned that most of what determines your success in that world is the things that are not taught in the classroom, right? It's the soft skills. It's the implied cultural norms that are often times a little bit different than what we grew up with, so, you know, a lot of us learn those lessons on the job as opposed to being prepared beforehand. So this podcast is doing a great service to help educate young professionals on those waters before they get into them, so kudos to you guys, and again, I'm glad to be a part of this.Zach: Man, Mike, thank you so much for the kind words. Again, the drink, Role Tea--like know your role, R-O-L-E T-E-A, and we're excited to give it a little review. So I appreciate your time. We consider you a friend of the show. Can't wait to have you back, man.Mike: Definitely appreciate it, man.Zach: Peace.Mike: Peace.Ade: And we're back. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview, Zach. I mean, I've known Mike for a little while now. He's been a great friend and supporter. Like, he's always good, not only to listen to you for advice but just listen to his experiences, and how he's been able to grow Role Tea as a brand has been very inspiring, and I'm so glad that we got so much of that in that interview.Zach: No, for sure. In our discussion, and outside of it too, we talked about--just talked about his history and talked about the challenges of building up his brand and really, like, trying and failing at some other things too, but super happy he was on the show, and hopefully we'll get some--we'll get some tea out of this. He told me he'd actually send us a couple pallets. I don't know about pallets, but he said he'd send--Ade: Word?Zach: Yeah. Not pallets, 'cause pallets sounds like--Ade: 'Cause that tea is delicious.Zach: Yeah. No, I've heard it's--I haven't had any yet, but I'm positive that once I have it I'm gonna enjoy it.Ade: Okay. Well, I am keeping an eye out, because Role Tea is amazing. Anyway, awesome. Thank you, and shout-out again to Mike Johnson and Role Tea. I'm looking forward to that tea.Zach: Salute to Mike. Okay, so Favorite Things?Ade: Favorite Things. Let's go. All right.Zach: All right, cool. So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Now, some of y'all are like, "Super Smash Bros.? What's that?" But let me tell you something, those who know--Pusha T voice. "If you know, you know." So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on my Nintendo Switch. It's super fun. I play in the evening after a long day at work, and I love it because I can just kind of pick it up. I don't have to, like, sit down in front of a big TV, boot up the game. I can just pick up my handheld, boot it up. And for those who want to know, my favorite--my main character is Chrom. So again, for those who are kind of, like, outside of this whole video game space, Super Smash Bros. is a Nintendo game, right, but it's like you can, like, pick Nintendo characters against each other to fight, right? But, like, not in a, like, super violent Mortal Kombat way. More, like, kind of, like, a cartoonish, fun way, but it's a deep, deep game, right? So you can put Mario against Sonic. You can put Princess Peach against Captain Falcon or Fox or Falco or Ganondorf versus Kirby. You can do all kinds of crazy match-ups, right? Super fun, and so it's been cool. It's a really good stress reliever. That--you know, working out sometimes, you don't want to necessarily want to get up and work out. Forgive me. I don't want to work out all the time. Sometimes I just want to kind of veg out, and it's great. It's great for that. So that's my favorite thing.Ade: Okay, self-care. I see you.Zach: That's right.Ade: So my favorite thing lately has been a book called Cracking the Coding Interview. It's been invaluable, I think. I struggle--for those of you who are just joining us, just in case this is your very first Living Corporate episode ever, I am switching careers, or I'm in the process of switching careers. I'm becoming a software engineer, and part of that process is self-teaching both foundational concepts and computer science, but also understanding algorithms, binary trees. Just how the very technical elements of software engineering, something that you are supposed to pick up in a classroom that I did not have the luxury of doing, therefore I have to teach myself. And there are also books that exist out there that kind of help you through the process of thinking through and developing strategies for coding interviews. I'm discussing it like it's a journal or something like that, [inaudible], but yeah, it's been a really important book, and I've kind of been adding more and more base computer science books and algorithm books to my library, right next to Frantz Fanon and Audre Lorde. So yeah, those are my favorite things.Zach: That's a sick combination though. That's dope.Ade: I want you to know our library in our home consists of tax law code and regulations and vegan chef--vegan cookbooks and regular cookbooks and Sister Outsider. [laughs] And computer science books and data science books.Zach: That's dope though.Ade: Oh, and [Ola had a?] self-help book. So there's no way you can walk into my home and not have something to read.Zach: You're gonna have something. You're gonna learn about something.Ade: There will be something available to edify you. I even have, like, fiction novels, everything from John Green to Grisham to Tomi Adeyemi, which, again, shout-out to her.Zach: Shout-out to her. No, straight up. She's great.Ade: I'm looking up to the next book in the series, by the way. Okay, we have veered so far off track. Did you have--Zach: Good. It's a Favorite Things segment. We're supposed to turn up. It's cool.Ade: You know what? You're right. You're right. Sir, sir. Sir. [Not turning up. Cruise?]. I'm tired. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] [Turn me up. Cruise?]Ade: Nope, I'm tired of you.Zach: Okay. No, no, no, but that's dope. So look, you know, y'all, if it wasn't evident by our kickoff episode, as well as our Supporting Black Women at Work section, the B-Side that we had as well as the full episode, we're here, man.Ade: We outchea.Zach: We're gonna have a good time this season. Make sure you keep checking us out. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Please say the dahs.Ade: The dash.Zach: If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, just email us or hit us on DM, right? We out here. Don't forget to give us 5 stars too. Now, look, some of y'all actually been responding and gave us some stars, but not all of y'all though. That's right, I'm looking at you. That's right. We need those 5 stars, okay? Right? Am I tripping, Ade? Do we need the 5 stars or nah?Ade: We need the 5 stars.Zach: We need the 5 stars. Okay, cool. Look, y'all. That does it for us. We'll catch y'all next week. This has been Zach.Ade: And this is Ade. Free 21 Savage.Zach: Free 21 Savage. Peace.Ade: Peace.

On the fifth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield advises us on what he considers to be the most effective ways to ask a question with 5 helpful tips. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan from Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're going to discuss how to properly ask questions. Have you ever asked a question and gotten a response that doesn't make sense? The issue may not lie with the other person but in the way you asked your question. Questions are the cornerstone of communication, and yet many of us don't frame or ask our questions appropriately. Questions allow you to learn, get answers, give answers, mentor people, and ultimately develop a reputation, but that's all only if you utilize them correctly. So here's a few tips on how to ask great questions. Number one, try to stick to one sentence. You may have to give some background, which is okay, but try to limit the actual question to a single sentence. This helps in keeping your questions open-ended. Number two, don't offer answers unless those are truly the only options. In doing so, you limit the other person, which you never want to do, because I can guarantee you've only thought about a few of the possible options. Number three, try not to sway the other person. While you may know the answer, your questions should be answer-neutral, allowing the person to answer them naturally. Number four, keep your talking to a minimum. The entire essence of a great question is to find out what the other person knows. If you ask the question in the right manner, you'll probably learn something. Number five, rinse and repeat for follow-up questions. Keep them neutral, open-ended, and as brief as possible. Asking better questions almost always results in better outcomes. Incorporate these tips when asking questions and start getting the answers that you're seeking. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

The founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls Alicia Davis joins the show to discuss a very important topic: what to do when you're unemployed. She also relates her own experience with unemployment and shares effective advice regarding how to handle it. Connect with Alicia: LinkedIn, Cubicles & Curls website, IG, TwitterConnect with us! LinktreeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a special B-Side. For those of you who are new here, B-Sides are essentially episodes we have in-between our more formal episodes, and they are even somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled content. That's right, more lit. Now again, this B-Side is special, because we have Alicia Davis, CEO and founder of Cubicles and Curls. Alicia, please introduce yourself.Alicia: What up? This is Alicia. I am the creator and founder of Cubicles and Curls, which is a blog or blog, you know, platform, for black professionals doing their natural hair thing, doing their career thing. We talk about hair care, we talk about hair styling, we talk about career advice. The whole thing.Zach: Come on, now. That's right, and it's special also not just because Alicia is here--that's plenty special of course, but because we're doing, like, an interview/collab episode. That's right. Alicia, why don't you walk through how we're gonna do this today?Alicia: All right. So today's episode is something that I felt was very important to talk about, 'cause we don't talk about it enough. We're talking about what to do when you are unemployed, and that could be, you know, you got fired, laid off, underemployed, you know, just haven't found a job yet. [Everyone?] goes through it at some point in their life, and we really wanted to get into the whole nitty-gritty of how that feels, what to do, how to look for a next job, and, just, you know, letting you know it's okay and it happens.Zach: That's a great subject. I'm excited about this because--you know, labor statistics show that non-white professionals are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to be unemployed for longer stints of time, so it's really important that we, I believe, have this conversation. Have fun with it of course, but really just address it, and address it courageously, because it's part of your career journey. And there's a quote here. Do you want me to read it or do you want to read it, Alicia?Alicia: Sure, I'll read it if you're talking about the Anna Wintour quote.Zach: Yes.Alicia: So Anna Wintour, who is the editor of Harper's Bazaar--sorry, no, I think she's the editor of Vogue. She used to work for Harper's Bazaar, and she said, "I worked for America's Harper's Bazaar. They fired me. I recommend they all get fired, because it's a great learning experience."Zach: For sure, for sure, for sure. So right, we want to talk about our experiences of losing jobs, what we did during unemployment, and what we did to find a new job. So Alicia, do you want to start or do you want me to start?Alicia: Yeah, sure. So I'll start.Zach: Okay.Alicia: You know, I would like to say that I've probably been unemployed a total of three times, under different circumstances. You know, once when I was in college. You know, another time it was just kind of, like, an issue of lack of work. You know, the company had to downsize. And another time I actually got fired. So, you know, those experiences really resonated with me, because, you know, something that I think we're ashamed of a lot, and one thing--when I was going through that at first I was just so down, but once I got out of it I kind of saw it for the gift that it was at that time.Zach: Yeah. No, for sure. So I was thinking about this--as we met of course and you proposed this topic, I was thinking "Okay, so I don't think I've ever been fired," right? And I haven't really ever been, like, asked to resign or anything like that either, but I do remember in college just not having a job and desperately wanting a job, and that journey of, like, getting into the workforce for the first time for real and trying to, like, prepare myself for a real career after college. I also remember--though I did not get fired and I wasn't asked to resign, I do remember quitting a job because the environment was so toxic, right? It was super racist, and I was getting called out on my name and threatened and things of that nature, which was, like, genuinely a dangerous and toxic environment, and I remember for about 3 or 4 months I was just, like, freelance consulting. I remember that, and that was a major part of my learning journey as well. So I'm excited about this for sure. And so then what did you do to find a job? Like, in those instances--Alicia: [inaudible] fired?Zach: Yes.Alicia: Oh, sorry.Zach: No, go ahead.Alicia: I said not everyone's been fired, but I think everyone faces unemployment, either after college or underemployment, you know? Sometimes things just happen where you're in-between jobs or, like you said, you quit 'cause you just can't take it anymore, and so I think at some point everybody goes through one of these phases where you're just, you know, in-between jobs.Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, something I've also realized is how big--so the gig economy, which is, like, a whole 'nother podcast episode, but in that same vein, contract employment, right, and working through temp agencies and contracting agencies where you're not, like, a--you're not your own boss, but, like, you're working through someone--you're working through an agency that if they don't staff you on a role, then you don't have any--you don't have any paper, right? And there's--that type of work lends itself to being underemployed for months at a time.Alicia: Exactly, and even if you are making paper you don't have benefits.Zach: Right, right. You don't have benefits, right. So yeah, I mean, let me ask you, what did you do--in those seasons of unemployment, what were you doing to find a new job?Alicia: Right. So the first time, you know, when I got laid off, my company was downsizing, you know? It just was a matter of how scared--I had moved out, like, boldly moved out of my mother's house for a year, and I was like, "I have to make ends meet." So, you know, I reached out to, like, my contacts. I was, like, really just kind of nervous about it, you know? And I found a job kind of quickly, just 'cause, like, I needed something to do. So I found a job. It was decent. I was like, "Okay, we can do this." It wasn't really what I wanted to do. It was outside of my field, but it was a job. It had benefits, and I was happy for it until, you know, finally it kind of came out that really that job wasn't gonna be a good fit, and, you know, they agreed it wasn't a good fit. We had to part ways. After that, I was unemployed for a year, but this time moreso voluntarily. I wasn't looking for a job at first because I really wanted to use the time--you know, 'cause prior to that I was unemployed for 2 months, and I was like, "If I ever find myself in that situation again, I'm gonna use the time a little differently." So I used the time to kind of reassess the kind of person I am, what my goals are, work on projects that I didn't get time to do when I was working full-time, and I was really--you know, I had saved up enough, so I was really just working to, you know, get myself ready to work and to come back to the workforce before I started looking for a new job.Zach: So those are great points, and it's interesting 'cause I think, for me, when I took a step away from that really toxic job, I was doing a lot of freelancing, like, contract work and kind of, like, staff agency stuff, and I really had to really take--for me, what I learned and what I really had to really pause and--there was a certain level of intentionality on my side of "Okay, well, before I just throw myself headlong into something else, what do I really need to, like--" 'Cause that was--I probably need to find some healing from that situation, right? And everybody who quits or leaves a job or--you know, it's not that it always is gonna be traumatic per se, but listen, man, leaving a job is hard. Like, even if you leave a job for something else that might be better, you kind of got to wash some of that old stuff off, right? Like, you need to--like, there needs to be a certain part of you that needs to kind of let it go. It's kind of like getting out of a relationship or--to be honest, right? Like, platonic or romantic.Alicia: Yeah, 'cause when I was [single?] I was like, "Am I describing my breakup?" Or "Am I describing when I left a guy?"Zach: And then, you know, also, you know, your living situation and your--you know, your savings and your severance and unemployment insurance, stuff like that. I mean, having those things lined up too. Thankfully for me, when I was doing the contract work and the checks were not as steady because I was freelancing and doing a bunch of different other consulting work, my wife had a job at the time, so--and because of the way that we had budgeted and we lived under our means, you know, nothing went under, by the grace of God, but it's important to think about those things too. So, you know, regardless of what they say, when you resign--when you leave a job, regardless if you leave--if you leave a job for another job or you leave a job just because "I got to leave"--people say "Don't make an emotional decision." Listen, it's always gonna be an emotional decision. You will never be able to, quote unquote, take the emotions out of it. There's gonna be some emotion involved with you transitioning away. At the same time, it's important to think through, like, "Okay, what are my plans once these checks stop," right?Alicia: Mm-hmm, yep. And, you know, to that it's really--one thing I want to tell people is if you're quitting, you need to make sure you have the financial means, but however if you're getting laid off, you might not have had that stacked up, you know? And one of the first things I did when I was laid off, I was like, "Well, can I get--" You know, talked about severance and all that stuff, and I was like, "Can I get unemployment?" And, you know, there's different--I don't know how it works in every state, but, you know, some states you have to have certain reasons. So if you're fired you might not be able to get unemployment, but if you're laid off you could, you know? So really that's a conversation--and it is emotional like you said, but that's really a conversation you do want to have with HR no matter what the circumstances and apply for unemployment right away if you can. If you can't apply for unemployment, you know, what I did too--you know, when I had left the second job that I got after I, you know, was laid off for a year, I actually applied to be an SAT teacher, because I was like, "Well, what other skills do I have?" And randomly I got an email, and it was from Kaplan saying, "Hey, do you want to do SAT teaching?" And I was like, "Oh, I can do that," you know? You might want to--like you said, you tapped into your freelancing. You know, think of some other things you can do with the internet. You know, there's so many opportunities to, you know, make a little money on the side to hold you over until you can find something else. And I really want to stress, you know, utilizing those resources as best as you can. If you're in your home town, you know, you might want to live with your parents. You might want to, like, rent out your apartment, you know, temporarily, Airbnb, whatever you need to do to make sure that you're stable, 'cause if you feel like you're drowning and you're on the verge of, you know, going into bankruptcy, you're not gonna be able to concentrate on getting better and healing.Zach: That's a good point, and it sounds as if really you were having to flex a few different creative muscles.Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yep, that's exactly what happened.Zach: And I think--which leads to another point. You know, not everyone is super creative and, like, industrious in that way, and so I think it's important to talk to people before you decide to leave, or if you know you're about to get fired or let go or there's some type of downsizing, have some trust and confidants around you that you can talk to as things are happening so they can maybe help you kind of navigate or they can point you in the direction of someone who can help you figure out how to--what the next season looks like.Alicia: Exactly.Zach: I know for me--I know for me, when I did leave--and I was depressed. Like, we've talked about mental health and mental wellness on Living Corporate before. I have no shame in saying that. When I quit that job, I was genuinely depressed and ended up gaining a lot of weight, and so--and did not take care of myself, and it took me--it took me some years to, like, lose that weight--and a little bit more, but to lose that weight that I had gained, and it was crazy because by the time, like, another opportunity came up that was, like, a great opportunity, and I got the job, but I wasn't in the best of shape. I wasn't at my best self, and so I think it's important as well, like, when you're in that season, that off-season, quote unquote, that you don't fall off, right? Like, go to the gym. Like, if you have--if you have some type of--whatever your belief system or structure is, pour into your local community. Like, continue to invest in yourself, that way when you show up at the next job you glowed up. Now, again, they hired you, so you have some level of [gold regards?], but for you to be at your best self--'cause I tell you, I regret not being healthier when I started my job, because I would've--you know, I would've enjoyed some things better. When I took business trips, I would have--I would have been more comfortable. I would have been able to explore the cities more, things of that nature, but I wasn't able to because I wasn't--I was not at a healthy--I wasn't physically healthy.Alicia: Yeah. And you know, I want to peel that back a little bit, you know? Like, when I was laid off as well, I was depressed, and, you know, I gained weight. I remember when I did have an interview I couldn't even fit into any of my suits, and I didn't have any money to buy a new suit 'cause I'm, you know, unemployed, but I really want to peel back. You know, a lot of people, when they find themselves in a situation, they do fall into these depressive episodes, and it's really important to--I mean, it's important to let yourself feel the emotions, but you have to tap into your support system, and I think a lot of times why we fall into those depressive episodes is because 1. because of the trauma of what happened and 2. because we assign a lot of self-worth to having a job, you know? I was embarrassed to go to, you know, events or leave the house 'cause I didn't want anyone to ask me "What are you doing? When are you finding a job?" Because I felt so ashamed to just not be having a job for the first time, you know? And I think it's really important. One of the things I did, you know, when I was, you know, unemployed the second time and I was using that me time was detaching my self-worth from what I do to get paid, you know? What my full-time employment is, and I think that's something, you know, a lot of people need their support system and help to get out of, and I think if anything I just really want to stress that part alone, that you are not your job. You're more than your job. Your job is gonna change 20 times over, and you're still gonna be that person you are.Zach: That's so true, and I believe--well, we live in a capitalistic society, and the cost of living is going up, and wages aren't necessarily matching the cost of living as it continues to increase, and so more and more folks are switching from work/life balance to work/life blend, because really our lives have become work, right? By some degree or another. That's why the gig economy is popping like it is. You know, a lot of people are doing full-time jobs and they're also Uber drivers and Favor delivers. Shout-out Favor, shout-out Uber. Y'all are not sponsors, but if y'all hear this, holla at your boy.Alicia: What's Favor? We don't have that here.Zach: So Favor is a food delivery service. It's kind of like--so y'all have Uber Eats, right?Alicia: Like Grubhub?Zach: Yeah, like Grubhub.Alicia: That's what we have.Zach: Okay. Yeah--Alicia: Okay.Zach: Y'all also have DoorDash though, right?Alicia: We do. We just got that.Zach: Listen, they getting all this free pub.Alicia: I know.Zach: But whatever, it's cool. Favor is similar to DoorDash. Anyway, it's hard not to disassociate yourself from what you do that keeps food on your table, but the more you can really align yourself with whatever--your family, your community, volunteer efforts, and things that really keep you going spiritually, mentally, emotionally, that's gonna help you, because if all you are is your job, and you lose your--Alicia: Zach? Sorry, you cut out real quick.Zach: Oh. Can you hear me now?Alicia: Sorry. Yeah, I can hear you now.Zach: Okay, cool. Because if all you have is your job and you lose your job, then what do you have? So it's important that you're always thinking about that, and I think we're in a really interesting season of self-care and mental and emotional wellness. I think those spaces have been rapidly growing over the past 6 or 7 years, especially for black and brown people, and so I think it's important, like, to invest in some things of that nature just while you have a job. Like, invest in those things while things are good, that way you're not scrambling if something changes.Alicia: Mm-hmm. It's all about foundation.Zach: It is, it is. So to your point though about, you know, being laid off or fired, it's not a mark of shame, and really there's only so much about you keeping your job that's in your control, and I think that's the thing about--there's a term when you talk about--oh, yes, job security. Yes, that's the term. So job security is a myth, but most people think "If I have a job, and I'm getting paid a salary, then I'm going to--" Like, "Nothing can happen that's gonna change me from having that job." Like, we are--we buy into a certain level of--we buy into a narrative that our jobs are extremely stable and that having a quote unquote "steady paycheck" is more reliable than, like, being an entrepreneur or whatever the case is, but, you know, the reality is unless you're, like, a VP, like, someone very senior at an organization, you're really only, like, one or two decisions away from you not having a job, right? And it's interesting as I've gotten a little bit older. Like, I'm 29, and as I've gotten a little bit older and I'm kind of moving up the ladder a little bit--I'm a manager, so I'm not in any real--I'm not making no real moves, but I see a few things differently now than I did at--like, when I was an associate or an entry-level employee, because I'm starting to see how things kind of move and push together.Alicia: Behind the scenes.Zach: Behind the scenes, and, like, when I was--and even before my current industry, which is consulting, I was an HR business partner, and I was working with the--like, with the CHRO. I was working with the COO of a start-up, and I was just noticing, "Okay--" There'd be people, like, three or four, five, six, seven levels under him, under me at the time, and in their world they're thinking, like, everything's hunky-dory, it's all great, blah-blah-blah. They don't know, like, their boss is about to get fired. They're about to get moved to a whole 'nother department. And the higher up you go, it doesn't seem like anything to you. Like, you have to really practice empathy as you get higher up because at the higher--it doesn't seem like anything to you, but to them, like, their whole world has changed, and so I'm just thinking more and more about that. Like, if you're an entry-level employee, if you're a non-executive employee, they can make one decision, and you end up moving from Department A to Department G or Department G to unemployment, and it's like that. So there's--it's not in your control. What's in your control is your attitude, your level of gratefulness, and how you show up to work every day, and then--and how flexible you're being and prepared you're being to find that next thing, but I think sometimes, because we buy into the fact that, like, these jobs are promised and that--and that things are just so secure that we can't fathom, or we kind of--I know I did. I'll speak for myself, that I really was shook when I walked away and I was like, "Wait, but I thought this was gonna work out. I thought this. I thought this. I thought that." You know? Am I making any sense?Alicia: Yep, absolutely, and I think that--I really like that emphasis of "it's not in your control," you know? You could have been the best worker, and sometimes it's just a numbers thing, you know? And I feel like once you accept that, you know--if you did your best, fine. If you didn't do your best and you got laid off, you know, really just take time to just learn from, "Okay, what could I change for next time?" I think that, you know, focusing on what you can control really can help prevent you from going into that whole spiral afterwards.Zach: And it takes a while. Like, sometimes it may take--you know, so for me, like I said, I quit that job. I was doing some freelance stuff, and I was underemployed for about 3.5, 4 months, and I've talked to people and they'll be like, "Man, Zach, that is no time." Like, "There are people who are unemployed, you know, 6 months to a year." It happens. Okay, so let's--go ahead, go ahead.Alicia: Well, I mean, speaking of that, you know, we should probably pivot into what do you do when you're unemployed and looking for that next job?Zach: No, that's super true. Okay, so figuring out what you liked and didn't like about your last position and crafting--can help you craft an ideal position and picture for your next job, right?Alicia: Yep. You know, I think a lot of times we either over-romanticize our jobs or over-demonize them, you know? So we're like, "That place was terrible," or "This is the best place I'm ever gonna work," you know? And I think it's really important to really think about what you did and didn't like about that job, and when you're going into interviews or applying to jobs, look for the signs. Again, it feels like I'm talking about a relationship, but, you know, I guess we spend so much time at work it might as well be.Zach: But it is though. You spend more time at work than you do with your family.Alicia: You do, exactly. So, I mean, I guess the same tenets apply here. So, you know, you might have really noticed, "Okay, this is what I enjoy about my position. I enjoy doing these things, and I don't enjoy doing these things." Sometimes I was even able to, like, look at job descriptions, and I could tell "This isn't the place." It wasn't gonna--like, you know, "can work without structure," you know? "Quick on her feet. Doesn't need much direction." And I was like, "So you're basically saying you don't know what you're doing, and you want me to come in and figure it out, and you're not gonna help me at all?" And I was like, "I'm good," you know? Like, you learn how to read in-between the lines after a while. I remember I said to one of my friends, "This job wants me to work 20 hours a day, I can tell." They didn't say it, but I know what "fast-paced environment" and "willing to go the extra mile" means, you know?Zach: Oh, wow. Mm-mm.Alicia: Mm-hmm. They're setting you up to be like, "This is gonna be hard," and if that's not something you want, you know, you've got to read in-between those lines. Even in the interview, you know, we get so scared asking people questions, like, the real questions about these positions, but that's your only chance to figure out if it's gonna be right for you before you get in there. So, you know, ask them, "Why did the last person leave?" You know? "What's the hardest part about this job?" You know? Or "What are the challenges of this job?" Or "Who do you think is gonna be a fit for this?" And be realistic with yourself of if what they're saying sounds right to you.Zach: Those are great--that's just great advice. You know what? Alicia, you should really have, like, a blog or something. Oh, wait! [both laugh] Okay. So no, you're right though, and it's also recognizing what your non-negotiables are, right? So for me, I know--like I said, I quit that one job 'cause it was just super toxic, but I've quit some other jobs too. Like, some of my first--I was working at a major retailer, and I realized that for me--I had to walk away from that job because the scope was way too small. Like, it was focused on a store. That was it. And so I knew that when I quit my--when I quit that job I said, "Okay, I gotta find a new job that's gonna give me more space to be autonomous and be creative and really flex some other muscles that I believe I have," and so a non-negotiable for me was working in the retail industry at a store level. Like, that was a non-negotiable--that was a non-negotiable for me. A non-negotiable was having an extremely limited scope. That was a non-negotiable for me, but you learn that after you reflect and think through what you did and did not like about your last place of employment. There's things I did like from that job, and so I took that things forward as well, but--we're just gonna keep on relationship references. Sometimes we have friends--and if you don't have any friends like this, then look in the mirror and then point at the mirror, and then you're that person--they kind of date the same person.Alicia: Mm-hmm, over and over again.Zach: Right? Over and over again. It's like, "Yo, like, you kinda got, like, a type." "No, I don't. I don't have a type." "Eh, you kind of have a type." And, like, you keep making the same mistakes with this one that you did with this one, so... and I bet your friend, or you if you look--the person looking in the mirror, you probably haven't, like, paused and reflected, "Okay, well, what is it that I like and don't like about this?" 'Cause there seems to be a pattern here. And a lot of us do that in our careers too. It's like--I have people who, like, they are serial careerists. They have--like, they'll take the same job and quit for the same reasons over and over and over and over. So it's really important that you're thinking through what's working and what isn't working.Alicia: Yeah, I agree. I agree.Zach: So this resume/cover letter refresh. Now, that's important.Alicia: Yes. So, you know, I thought my resume was pretty bomb. Like, I think my--I've always had a pretty solid resume, but you know what? I was putting out feelers, and I was getting--like, I was getting phone interviews, but I wasn't getting past the phone interviews, so I was like, "What's going on here," you know? Like, my resume's dope. One job, like, I matched it exactly. Like, and it was a pretty [inaudible] job, so I was like, "How could you not hire me?" Like, I am the one, you know? But what I did was I actually at some point got a career coach, 'cause one I was kind of not--like, I was ready to apply, but I was still feeling a little bruised from, like, you know, past experiences, worried. So, you know, a lot of the times when you're writing these cover letters, it requires you to reflect on your experiences at these past jobs, and sometimes that's causing you to live in the hurt and the trauma all over again, you know? Just writing the cover letter can be an ordeal 'cause you're just like, "Wow, that job was really terrible," and it's coming out into your cover letter how wishy-washy you were about that job, you know? So what I did was I actually got a career coach to rewrite my cover letter for me, you know? Like, I [hired?] her, and she gave me advice. She rewrote my resume, because one thing she said was, you know, "You're listing out the things you've done, but you're not really giving me that, you know, "I'm a star" kind of thing in your resume. You're mostly like, "I did this, I did this," but you're not really telling me "I accomplished this" or, like, "I'm the winner," or, like, "I'm the best 'cause of X, Y, and Z." It wasn't shining, and my cover letter was much of the same, more just listing things that I did but not really, like, spelling out why I stand out, you know? And she was teling me that, you know, I think that comes from a place of you trying to be over-humble, and you're trying to, you know, downplay yourself a little bit because you're bruised. And so, like, getting her to refresh my resume really--honestly, the results were instant in terms of call-backs, in terms of moving on to the next level, in terms of even just changing my interview style, 'cause I realized, yeah, you know, I was kind of--like, I felt like, "Okay, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am," because, like, I had been laid off before, but I was like, "No, I am as good as I think I am, and that was just an isolated incident," you know? And it's really just about your attitude, but sometimes you just need someone else to step in and do that work for you because it's too painful to do it yourself.Zach: Man, I just--I 100% agree. I think the other thing I'd like to add to the idea of a resume/cover letter refresh is a LinkedIn refresh, right? So, you know, LinkedIn is like the--I mean, LinkedIn first of all, as--I'm gonna put my futurist hat on real fast. So as millennials and Gen Z get more into the workforce and they start engaging LinkedIn, it's gonna become--and it has already, if you've noticed, become way more social and, like, almost kind of, like, Facebook in certain ways, good and bad, the point being that it's gonna become an indelible part of your identity, professional and personal. I mean, even if you Google someone's name, their LinkedIn pops up. Their LinkedIn pops up more than their Facebook does, and so, you know, make sure that you have a professional and accurate depiction of who you are and what you want to present on LinkedIn is huge too, because that can have instant results as well. I've seen certain companies--if your LinkedIn isn't popping it's kind of like, "Eh, I don't really know." Like, that can be the difference maker, to your point, between, like, a phone interview and, you know, an actual in-person--Alicia: Yeah, 'cause let's face it, everybody looks everybody up nowadays. As soon as I hear your name I'm looking you up, you know? "What can I find?" [laughs] So either--if you have a generic name you might be safe, but if you don't you better have that LinkedIn popping. And, you know, just real quick on that, you know, make sure your picture is great, or--you know, it doesn't have to be a professional head shot, but it shouldn't be, like, a selfie. It shouldn't be inappropriate. It should look like how you would probably come for an interview.Zach: It really should though. And I'ma say this, at this point--so again, a lot of this speaks to financial privilege and access. Everyone can't afford, like, a professional head shot. At the same time, these cell phones... really?Alicia: Right? [laughs] If you have an iPhone X, just go against a white wall and take that picture.Zach: Take that picture. Get a nice outfit, you know what I'm saying? Get some drip. Okay, side-note, 'cause we're in 2019, and Ade and I, we would insert slang in 2018, but we did not always give context to the slang, and I have--Alicia: Explanatory comma.Zach: Absolutely. And we have aspiring allies and non-black and brown folks who listen to the show, and people will hit me up and be like, "Hey, what does "the bag" mean?" And I'm like, "Oh, the bag is, like, the money and the wealth or the opportunity." Anyway, so drip--for everyone who's listening who doesn't know--so drip is your fit, right? So drip is not to be confused with sauce, which is more influence and swag. One can have swag and sauce but not have drip, and one can have drip but not have swag. So with all that being said, you'll be dripped out, right, in the picture. White background, iPhone X. It'll be great. Now--Alicia: As a friend of mine said, "Drip or drown."Zach: [laughs] Oh, that's funny to me. Yes, drip--Alicia: I think that's my favorite thing I've heard all year. [laughs]Zach: Drip or drown. You better--you're gonna have to drip or drown. That might be the subtitle for this little B-Side, Drip or Drown. That might be the hashtag, #DripOrDrown. And then the last thing, don't let desperation lead you to another job that won't be a good fit. That's real.Alicia: I think that's important, because you know what? I get it. Your bills are coming down. You feel like you need to get a new job ASAP. You really need to take--like I said, just make sure you're making the right decision for you. The money could look good, but, like, if it's something that's gonna make you be working 20 hours a day, and you're not the type of person that likes to work 20 hours a day--if it's something where you're gonna be working from home a lot or you're gonna be traveling, you need to make sure it's a good fit, else you're gonna end up quitting or they're gonna end up letting you go again, you know? Like, you really want to make sure that 1. this next move--a lot of times what people do is they'll start applying to any job. It's not even in their field, you know? But it's like, "Okay, well, I think I can do that." That's when you're getting desperate, and people can tell, you know? You really want to stick to what you want to do, 'cause, you know, you might be at that job for a long time, and if you want to be--Zach: You never know.Alicia: Exactly. If you want to be in consulting but you're taking a job over at hospitality, you imght end up staying there for a year, and now you have a year of something outside of your field on your resume, and you're gonna have to work to explain, you know, how it lines up, 'cause--what I always think is funny is, you know, people are very narrow-minded when they look at your resume, and they're really only looking at your last thing, and you have to do so much explaining. Like, I had a whole major in health care. All of my jobs were in health care except for one, and people only focus on the one that wasn't. And I was like, "I was only there for 3 months," you know? And it's so crazy how things like that--so that's what I'm saying. Being intentional about, you know, your next move, even if it means passing up, like, a bunch of other, you know, could be easy wins, you really want to make sure your next one is gonna move along in your career path and not just pay the bills.Zach: No, I super agree with that. You know, I kind of make--see, now, this is your fault, Alicia, 'cause you brought up relationships, 'cause now I'm thinking about all these relationship jokes. But it's kind of, like, you know, when you--you might have a breakup, but it's cold outside. Like, it's cuddle season, and so, you know, it's like, "Man, I gotta find somebody."Alicia: Oh, no. Yeah, don't get a warm body job.Zach: [laughs] Yo. Don't get anybody. Don't get a rebound joke is my point. Like, you've gotta, you know, find somebody that is going to put a ring on it or that you will put a ring on. I don't know. You know, everybody's proposing to everybody. It's no problem, no judgment, but the point is figure out what is gonna really be stable for you, 'cause--this is two things. First of all, people very much so underestimate time, and underestimate it in terms of how fast it can go by, and the fact that you can't take it back. So to your point earlier, you said about a year in hospitality. Like, you can look up, and you're gonna have--there are people who are like, "I got this job 5 years ago 'cause I just wanted something 'cause I got laid off and I was just trying to find something," and you look up and it's like, okay, this is your job now, and you don't like it, or you've been doing this thing for a year and a half, 6 months to a year, and then you try to interview somebody--you try to interview for what you really want, and people are like, "Okay, well, why were you doing this?" Like, what are you going to say? And not to say that you're stuck. I mean, it happens, but it's gonna take a little bit more work in how you craft your story and convince interviewers that, "Okay, no, I'm really actually interested in this." Now, I would think that folks with a modicum of empathy and logic would recognize that life happens and that we don't always find--land in the jobs that we want, but often times, like you said--like, it's weird. Like, people put on these weird blinders during interviews and don't always think about context and how just things shift and change and everyone isn't the same, but anyway, this has been great, this has been great. Alicia, what else do we have? Before we go--you go ahead.Alicia: Before I go, I just want to ask--the last question was, you know, if you're an interview and it comes up "Why did you leave your last job?" And it's not exactly an easy answer, that's something you want to practice ahead of time, 'cause that's always gonna come up, you know? You know, one of the things I said when I was laid off was, you know, "My company was going in a different direction. We were shifting from the work that I was doing to a different sector, and that's not something I wanted to do, so, you know, we agreed it wasn't a fit and I left." And another job, the one that I was there for 3 months, I told them, you know, it was a temp job, 'cause basically [inaudible]. It just didn't transfer over into full-time, you know? So don't lie, but have some sort of, you know, palatable truth into your interviews, and practice your answers so that you're not coming off nervous or, you know, it feels like there's something shady going on there. I think that's really important, but I do want to stress that most places, at least in New York--you know, your employer--your past employer shouldn't tell your next employer that you were fired, because that would mess up your chances of getting a new job. I think there's some legality to that.Zach: No, that's illegal.Alicia: Yeah. It is, right?Zach: It's illegal, yeah.Alicia: Exactly. So I want you to have that comfort in knowing that, you know, you kind of are getting a fresh slate as long as, you know, you kind of know how you're gonna work it. Don't feel like it's gonna be, like, a scarlet letter that follows you for the rest of your life.Zach: No, that's super true, and it's interesting because you really gotta figure out ways to politicize--not politicize, but politic that answer. So for me, you know, I was at a major retailer for, like, less than a year, and so even now--I'm 7 years into my career, and people will say, "Okay, well, you know, why were you here?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, that really gave me the--" Like, my answer now is "That really helped me baseline some HR knowledge and best practices. However, I realized that the scope of that retailing context was not conducive for my professional development, and so I ended up finding X, Y, and Z," and I just kind of transition. And I think it's also important, now that we're talking about just how you interview and walk through your career, that you have, like, a story and a overarching narrative that you're speaking to. So if you talk about it from that perspective, then you're kind of--you're talking about these jobs as just points in your journey and not necessarily "I was this, I was this, I was that." It's--for me as an example, I'll say something like, "My name is Zachary Nunn. I'm very passionate about people." And so you'll see in my career, as you look at my resume, all of the roles that I have involve people, and then from there I just kind of walk through the story of "I was here, then I was in oil and gas, then I was in pharmaceuticals. Now I'm in consulting," and it makes sense, as opposed to, like I said, having, like, a really segmented story, 'cause that's how people like to--that's an older way of thinking, but just remember we're transitioning now into a much more fluid workforce, and it's okay to be in different places and have different experiences, but--Alicia, to your point, I 100% agree that you have to have some practice and verbiage behind how you're gonna spin that.Alicia: Yep.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been dope, and like I said, this is the first one of its kind. This has been pretty fun for me. Have you had a good time?Alicia: I had a great time.Zach: Okay. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about Cubicles and Curls?Alicia: Okay. So you can learn more about Cubicles and Curls on our blog, CubiclesAndCurls.com, or you can follow us on Instagram @CubiclesAndCurls. Sometimes I'm on Twitter, and that's just @CubiclesCurls, but, you know, Instagram is definitely the place where you'll usually find me.Zach: Aye. Awesome. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com or living-corporate.co or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org.Alicia: Ooh.Zach: I know. Yeah, that's right, Alicia. We got 'em all. We don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia owns livingcorporate.com.Alicia: Hm.Zach: I know, right? It's crazy. It's crazy. Anyway, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Alicia Davis, founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls. Peace.Alicia: Peace. 

On the fourth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield discusses what constitutes an effective elevator pitch and shares his advice on how best to come up with your own.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's happening, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. So today, let's discuss our elevator pitches. Most of us have heard of what an elevator pitch is, but for those who aren't aware, elevator pitches are short, concise statements that explain who you are and what you do. It's called an elevator pitch because apparently you're supposed to imagine that you get into an elevator with another person, and they ask you what you do, and then you only have that brief moment in the elevator to give them a meaningful response. Now, I don't know about you, but I very rarely talk to anyone in elevators, let alone strangers, but let's flow with it. While most of us may have an elevator pitch, I'm here to tell you that we need to rethink the way that we do them. We've been taught to lead our elevator pitch with process rather than leading with results. When we do that, we leave the other person wanting to know "What's in it for me?" So let's listen to one of my old elevator pitches as an example. I used to lead with "I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development by combining my client's personal brand with their career field through strategic coaching and the development of resumes, cover letters, and LinkedIn profiles marked by their consistency, infusion of key words, and unique formatting that helps my client stand out. Are you looking for help in elevating your career?" While it sounds good, it doesn't lead with results. It doesn't immediately tell the person what's in it for them, and it puts the other person on the spot. In order for us to make faster and more valuable connections, we need to talk about how we create wins for our companies or clients and provide those within the first 60 seconds. By doing this, we don't make the person guess what's in it for them. We give them examples of what could be in it for them. So let's replace the process in my first elevator pitch with some results and see how it transforms. "I'm the head career coach and resume writer at Layfield Resume Consulting. As a result of the coaching, resumes, and cover letters and LinkedIn profiles I provide my clients, they not only landed roles in Fortune 500 companies, but they're better equipped to position themselves as experts and become their own biggest advocate in their careers. I'm looking for individuals who are ready to level up their careers. Can you think of anyone who needs some help?" Which one do you think is better? Reach out and let me know. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check out us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Marty Rodgers of Accenture stops by the show to discuss the concept of lifting as you climb. He also tells us his career journey, from the beginning all the way to his current job at Accenture, and talks about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. Check out Marty on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Look, I got a question for y'all. I'm kind of talking to--I'm talking to us right now, recognizing that we have allies listening in, we have various types and hues of melanin who check out the podcast, but I'm kind of talking to us right now. Have y'all heard of the phrase "all skinfolk ain't kinfolk?" Have you ever heard of that phrase? Okay, so if you haven't heard of that phrase--this is education for everybody now, so shout out to everybody who listens and checks in with the podcast, but the idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk means that just because someone looks like you doesn't mean that they're actually out--looking out for you, right? And the whole idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk is really illustrated and articulated well in corporate America. You know, for me, I think because I am one of the few if--I mean, arguably the only person in my family really actively in corporate America doing what I'm doing, coming into these spaces, and I see other folks who look like me. Initially, early in my career, I would run up on 'em and be like, "Oh, what's going on, man? Da-da-da-da-da. What's going on, brother?" And they'd hit me with, "I'm not your brother. I'm not your pal, buddy. Go find something else to do," right? Like, they hit you, and you'll be like, "Whoa, what is this?" All skinfolk not kinfolk, and so as I had those experiences and disappointments in my professional journey, finding folks who were actually kinfolk became all the more satisfying, right? And so I'm really excited because even though this Black History Month has been trash, with Jussie and Gucci and whoever else making blackface clothes and folks just wiling in general, people having actual--putting on blackface in 2019 or acting as if the '80s was, you know, 89 years ago. This episode is really powerful for me, man. And yeah, Ade isn't here this week. She'll be back next week. So I'm kind of sad, but this is a silver lining, because I got to actually have a conversation with someone who really epitomizes the concept of lifting as you climb. This man, his name is Marty Rodgers. Marty Rodgers is a managing director out of the D.C. offer at a firm called Accenture. Great man. You're gonna hear about his profile, hear about his story, and so I'm really excited for y'all to check this out, okay? So don't go anywhere. The next thing you're gonna hear is us getting into this interview with Marty Rodgers. Now, look, the computer crashed and we had to redo the interview, but I want y'all to know--and I say it in the conversation--he did actually show us mad love at the top of the interview about Living Corporate. He actually checked out the platform and stuff. He's actually a fan. Shout-out to you, Marty Rodgers, and shout-out to all the folks listening. I want y'all to check this out. Talk to y'all soon. Zach: So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Marty: Sure, absolutely, Zach. So in terms of my background, I've always wanted my career to go back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. I very much believe that all three sectors would be required to come together, to work together, to understand each other, to understand the respective, you know, why each sector exists, what their purpose is, how they're incorporated, what their incentives are, and then all three would have to figure out a way to work together on the greatest issues and challenges of our time. So whether that's the environment or civil rights or education or health care, we've got to find a way to get all three of these sectors to come together to tackle those great challenges. And so when I was coming out of undergrad--I went to the University of Notre Dame, and as I was getting ready to graduate, a guy named Dr. Cliff Wharton became the first African-American CEO of a Fortune 500 company. He became the CEO of TIAA-CREF, and Dr. Wharton had a distinguished career at the UN and also in non-profits before assuming that position, and also as an educator as well, and so he kind of embodied kind of what I wanted my career to be, and so that's very much what I set about the course of doing. So my first row and assignment I started working with Aetna Life and Casualty. I was doing economic research and economic portfolio analysis for a big real estate investment--holdings that the insurance company had. That was really awesome and great, because it happened at a time and a moment in our--in our country when the SNL crisis was happening and properties were getting dumped and affecting our portfolios, and so I'd have to do lots and lots of research on the impact of those--of what government was doing and its impact on the private sector, and so I did that for a while, and I had an opportunity to go to work for one of my mentors in the non-profit space, a woman by the name of Dr. Marian Wright Edelman. She was the president and founder of the Children's Defense Fund, and I originally started and worked for her as her--on her staff as her assistant. That was an awesome experience for me. I got to work directly with her, learn from her, and here was a person that had and is still changing the country. She was the first black woman lawyer in the state of Mississippi and had worked to help create Head Start and a whole variety of other programs for children. That was a great experience. It was the first time I was working really on helping her launch a race-specific campaign for African-American kids called the Black Community Crusade for Children, and we launched that in a whole series of freedom schools all across the country. And then I left there--I kind of had the advocacy bug at that point and went to Capitol Hill. In fact, that was another great experience where I got to work for another mentor of mine, somebody who I'd always looked up to and respected. I went to work for a guy, senator Harris Wofford, who--he's a white guy who had gone to Howard and became one of if not the first graduate of Howard Law School. He went on to work with Dr. King. He went to work with Robert F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. He headed up civil rights in the Kennedy administration and [inaudible] the Peace Corps and was the college president of a couple universities, and so, like Cliff Wharton, he was somebody who I had looked up to and wanted to be more like, and so it was a great opportunity to go work for him and with him. He was very passionate, having co-founded the Peace Corps, about the idea of bringing the Peace Corps home to serve American families and American communities, and so that's very much [what we did together?] was--we worked together. I was in charge, as his staff person, of working on the Americorp legislation and creating a program called Americorp to allow young people a chance to make a difference through full-time national community service efforts, and then we also worked together to create in turn--since he was a friend and an adviser to Dr. King, we worked with congressman Louis to turn that holiday into a national day of service, and so that was my time on the Hill, learning, you know, how does legislation work, how does politics work? How do you get things done on the Hill? And then after that, after spending, you know, almost 5 years trying to convince people about the importance of service and giving back and making a difference, I thought it was quite hypocritical that I hadn't served myself, and so I went and I did a stint serving Native-American kids out in New Mexico and then went to grad school, and then it was after grad school that I joined Accenture, and I've been at Accenture for 21 years, and the great thing about Accenture is it's allowed me to continue to do those things that I was passionate about, and that is, again, moving back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. So I started my career at Accenture in the for-profit space, working in our financial services group. I moved over and joined our government practice, then I started our non-profit practice and launched that literally 10 years ago, almost to the month, and then after that I've now moved into our health and public service group, which is a little bit of a combination of both.Zach: So first of all, that's amazing, all of the things that you shared. Of course there's a clear pattern of service and partnership, and I also, think, Marty, what's really interesting about when you share your story and just your introduction, a lot of us, we have a perspective on one of those three spaces, if it's, like, the legislative space or the non-profit space or the for-profit space, but--and I'm certain that you've heard this many times before. I think your perspective in having such dynamic and deep experiences in each of those spaces gives you a unique perspective, especially when it comes to effectively actualizing change and supporting and lifting as you climb. And so as you know, today we're talking about mentorship versus sponsorship. And, you know, before we started recording the call, and we didn't get--we didn't get this because the computer crashed, but, you know, you said a lot of great things about the podcast, so thank you for that. But everywhere I go--so when I joined--when I started with Accenture, and I've been to some other firms, but everyone has either heard of you or they've worked with you or they aspire to work with you, and so I'm excited to talk to you about this topic, because when your name comes up, often times, especially within the black consultative community, there's a desire for you to be a mentor to them or a sponsor for them, and so I'm curious, could you explain a bit in your mind about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship?Marty: Sure, absolutely. And there really are--it's critical to know the difference between the two and to understand the difference between the two, especially as you're navigating your career. So as I think about mentorship versus sponsorship--and they're both important, but again they're both very different--I think it's important to kind of realize that at different points of your journey you're gonna need mentors, and at different parts of your journey you're gonna need sponsors, and in some cases they can go back and forth. You know, you can have a mentor that can be a sponsor and a sponsor that eventually becomes a mentor, but they are fundamentally different, and if I can take a second just to kind of delineate how I think about that. Let me go through that. So first--and again, just for you and the audience, Zach, it's just I think helpful to think of it just really quickly in a couple of kind of compare and contrasts. So first, mentorship is someone who speaks with you, and sponsorship is someone who speaks about you and for you. Mentors advise. Sponsors advocate. Mentors support. Sponsors steer. Mentors are folks that can help you think about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that can include work, but it doesn't have to exclusively be about work, whereas sponsors talk about career and work, right? Like, that's the purpose of a sponsor. Mentors help you translate kind of the unwritten rules, whereas sponsors are the rules. Mentors have mentees. Sponsors have employees. Mentors talk about paths. Sponsors talk about trails. And then a couple other last ones as I was kind of quickly thinking through this, mentors are someone you look up to, right? And they're folks you want to be like. So for me it was senator Wofford, it was Marian Wright Edelman, it was Johnneta Cole. It's Cliff Wharton. It's all of those folks, you know, that have shaped who I am and who I want to become and who I want to be like and who I look up to, aspire to be like. Sponsors, that's not a requirement, right? But a requirement of sponsorship is power, right? So my mentors have been my heroes and my sheroes. Sponsors don't have to live up to that high of a status. And then lastly, as I described in the beginning, mentors can be sponsors and vice versa. So that's sort of, like, how I quickly kind of think through the compare and the contrast of all of those.Zach: No, absolutely. You know, I'm curious, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions around mentorship? So a lot of times--I rarely ever in conversation, when we have our conversations about our careers and career management with my colleagues and even folks that are non-managers and things of that nature, do I hear people say, "Man, I really want him to be my sponsor." Like, most times we're like, "I need somebody to mentor me." What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions when it comes to black and brown professionals? Or just professionals in general of course, but what you think when you say the word "mentorship" and the expectations. What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions around that?Marty: Well, especially for mentorship, right? Well, let me just actually start with both. So both mentorship and sponsorship are two-way streets, and I think a popular misconception is, you know, it's kind of a one-way relationship, but both--the key thing is that it IS a relationship, right? And there are costs and risks and investments of time, of capital, of attention, on both sides, and both sponsorship and mentorship require kind of nurturing care and feeding, and you can't have a mentorship or a sponsorship relationship where all of the value is going in one direction. It's got to be--it's got to be both ways, and so that for me is the biggest misconception. Like, there's this perception that, "Hey," you know, "I'm gonna get something from my mentor," versus, you know, what are you gonna give your mentor? Or "Hey, I'm gonna get something from this sponsor," versus what are you gonna give your sponsor? I talked earlier about, you know--one of the things I like to say is, you know, mentors can help guide you on a path, right, and talk about paths. You know, like--and again, like, that whole notion of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your path is a bigger thing than just your career and just your--you know, your work and your job, and a path is--it's something that you're cutting yourself. It's your way of moving forward, and a mentor can talk to you about the ups and downs of that journey and how that happens. A sponsor is really about the trail, right? And when you talk about trails, you're following after someone that's already blazed that trail. You're going--you know, with a sponsor you're sort of the protege. You're the person that they're investing in, that they're expecting something from, that you're gonna be a reflection on them. And again, that's the notion that--for a sponsor, you're an employee, right? And you're somebody that they are investing in 'cause you're gonna do something for them and for the firm, and it's a--it's a transaction. And again, that's not--that's not the same type of relationship that you would have necessarily with a mentor, where a mentor is more somebody you're gonna--you're gonna want to be like and look up to.Zach: That's just so perfect, man. And first of all, Marty, it's 4:00, so are we okay to go for another 10 to 15 minutes?Marty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good. We're good.Zach: Thank you so much. So let me ask you this. What was a moment for you--'cause you talk a lot, again, when you kind of talked through your journey just before grad school and before joining Accenture, you mentioned your mentors a lot and the multiple mentors that you've had. Did you ever have a moment where the difference between mentorship and sponsorship impacted your early career?Marty: Yeah. I mean, I think the story, Zach, that really kind of brings home the difference between mentorship and sponsorship would actually be when I first was made a partner--and maybe we will come back to that at the end, right? But when I was made a partner--now we call them managing directors--you know, I was sort of, to be blunt, kind of clueless. I was potentially--there's far too many of us, as black and brown folks, that--you know, my attitude was not what it should be, and what I mean by that is I was of the mindset of, you know, "Hey, I'm doing what I need to do. They should make me a managing director or a partner, and if they don't, you know, it's not why I get up in the morning, so, you know, their loss," right? Somebody, one of the folks that I was reporting to who, you know, now I would call more of a mentor, said, "You know what? That's probably not how you want to think about it, and if you want to accomplish a lot of the things you want to accomplish for other people, for other causes, for other things you say you believe in, then I need you to care about making it to partner, to managing director." When I started on that journey, I had no clue, you know, what was the process was. I was sort of, to be blunt, almost disinterested in the process. I just kind of figured--again, it would happen if it happened. When I was first up for managing director, for partner, I got what we call the paperwork without even knowing that I was up that particular year. I filled out the paperwork. Not even--you know, kind of rushed. Didn't even really think much about it, and went through the process, if you will, and Zach, the crazy thing was I was brought into meet with one of our executives, who told me that particular year I was not going to make managing director, that I was--hey, I had a good run. Glad I was part of the process, but I wasn't going to make it. And hey, you know, it was one of those things where I was like, "Okay," you know? "No big thing." I wasn't--I didn't even know this process existed. I wasn't sure of the process. I wasn't gonna lose sleep about it, right? 2 weeks later I was called back into that same person's office and was told, "Hey, guess what? You actually are gonna make it." And the difference between that and two weeks later was a sponsor had got the list, didn't see my name on it, and had decided, "Hey, nice list, but it's missing somebody," and that's the difference between a mentor and a sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's just so powerful, because I've--you know, from mentors that I've spoken with about--the higher that you climb on these ladders and levels of leadership, you know, the more of that type of support you're going to need, right? And that there needs to be more and more consensus on who makes that list. So that's a powerful example. Marty: Absolutely, and in this particular case, right, and this is something more and more corporations are wrestling with, dealing with, and trying, and we do it formally here at Accenture, but this was a person who had been named as my sponsor that I didn't know that they were my sponsor. So they had--they had been kind of assigned to be my sponsor, and I didn't know until much later that they had been formally assigned to be my sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's also particularly amazing, and I would imagine humbling for you, Marty, in that, to your point, you weren't even super invested in the process at the time, right? Like, your attitude was not one of, you know, "I need to get this." You know? And so for that to be the case, that's just--that's incredible, but I think it also speaks to your earlier piece when you were talking about people being invested in you that sometimes--I know for me, at least in my career, there have been people who have been more invested in me, in me getting to a certain place [that I was?] at a time because they had the insight and wisdom to know what me getting there meant, and that's invaluable.Marty: And that's the key thing for a sponsor, right? A sponsor has to decide, "Hey, I'm going to give some of my capital to you, and the reason I'm going to give you that capital, the reason I'm going to invest in you, the reason I'm going to sponsor you, is because you in turn are gonna be a good reflection on me," and/or "You're gonna be a good reflection on the firm, and net/net." Normally what that means is, in for-profit firms, you're gonna help us make money.Zach: Yeah. So, you know, in my career, I've seen--the folks who go the furthest, they have sponsors, right? Of course. And frankly I've seen people of color attempt to build sponsor relationships and fall flat a little bit, and so I'm curious, what are some tips that you have for black and brown professionals--particularly millennials, but of course Gen X and baby boomers as well--who are seeking sponsors, and what advice do you have for senior leaders and executives who may not be used to engaging professionals that don't look like them and really establishing those types of relationships?Marty: So [that was?] kind of a two-part question there, Zach. So if I take the first part, right, in terms of the black and brown folks that are seeking sponsors. Well, the first should be, again, to remember that it's a two-way street, and there has to be mutual value shared in both directions, right? And you have to know that when you enter into that relationship, you are a reflection of your sponsor, and that bears with it certain responsibilities, right? And you have to help them, and they have to help you, so to speak. Second thing is you have to ask the question, you know, "Where do I find a sponsor," right? And a sponsor ultimately, going back to those original definitions, right, has to have power. They have to have a seat at the table. They have to be in the room when decisions are being made, and that usually means you've got to look at the org chart, and you've got to look at, you know, who has the budget, and who has the chair, and who has the--you know, the P&L statement to--or, you know, who's filling out the final performance reviews, and how high up in the ladder are they doing that, right? So that would be kind of a second point. Like, you've got to know where to look, and make sure that you're actually identifying folks that are at the table. And then the last part of that is--I always encourage folks to--just like with mentors, you've got to have more than one, and you've got to look for multiple sponsors, because--especially in a lot of organizations nowadays, folks are moving around all of the time at the top, and so you never know, you know, who's gonna shift where when, and the worst-case scenario is, you know, you're planning and investing in a certain sponsor that then moves, and that person no longer has influence where you need them to have influence and you don't have any fallback. So you want to have multiple sponsors in multiple different places, multiple different folks that can speak for you at the table and can be at the table as things move and change. And my last thought in terms of our folks as they seek sponsors, I think it is incumbent upon young professionals in particular to put themselves out there and to realize that that takes courage, but you've got to put yourself out there in terms of being willing to sign up for assignments that you might not--you know, that are stretch assignments that have risk in them. You're gonna have to do a lot of networking and additional relationship development above and beyond kind of your day job. The table stakes, the price of admission, is that you're gonna, you know, perform exceptionally well and what you're doing day in and day out. The last part of that is your sponsor is going to--in terms of that relationship, they're going to be helping you remove obstacles and barriers. They're gonna be helping pick you out for certain assignments, and they're gonna in some cases be helping--they'll help you get that promotion, but you're then responsible, not just for what you were doing before. Now you're responsible for achieving in that new role, and that--you know, that's sort of your next test case, and then that relationship will continue to develop or evolve based on how you perform after that, that kind of first reach-back or reach-in. So it's an ongoing evolution, and that relationship and that dynamic will change over time, and so I think sometimes we get into these relationships and we think they're sort of--they're always the same and they're always sort of static in terms of the relationship. What you'll find is those things actually change, especially as you climb and as your relationship and the proximity sometimes between you and the sponsor, that gap, closes. In terms of the second part of what your question--and sorry for being a little bit long-winded, Zach, but in terms of the second part of your question, senior leaders that are--you know, in terms of how they can best engage with young professionals that don't look like them, I always talk about the opportunity to create space and to have grace. So space and grace, and there's really a need for both, whether it's our employee resource groups or it's our offices or whatever profession you might be in, or if it--or even sometimes those senior leaders themselves, to create the space to come together to get to know folks, to have an opportunity to interact with folks and see who those folks that have that promise, that have that ability to rise, are and can be. And so in the case of folks that don't look like them, that creation of space is really essential, where both a person of color, but also they themselves can feel comfortable in that interaction, and then the grace is, you know, there are gonna be some moments where neither of you feel comfortable, but that's okay. It takes a little bit of courage, but that's part of the price of being a leader at your firm.Zach: Right, right. So I'm a new manager at my company, and I've been recently promoted to manager--Marty: Congratulations, that's awesome.Zach: Thank you, Marty. I appreciate it. It's been about--Marty: You see, man? You just keep climbing. It's awesome. And you keep giving back, which is this podcast. Represent.Zach: Right? Man, you're gonna make me blush on this podcast, man. They're gonna see it through the app, man. Thank you. But it's been about a year, but let me be honest. In my career, often times--and I'm gonna have a bit of an inside conversation outside the house, but often times when I see folks that look like us--and this is has been my experience--they're more--they more often act like referees than they are true avenues of support, and so--and interestingly enough, some of the most prominent mentors that I've had, they've shared that some of the biggest roadblocks have been from them being at a junior level and from people who were at a senior level that do look like them, and so I'm curious, you know, what advice do you have for black and brown leaders to better lift as they climb? And what, if any, roles do non-minority leaders play in helping to support that culture? And I know I'm giving you a lot of, like, two-parter questions, but the reason why I'm asking that second part is because I do believe that there's some type of--there's a reason why we don't always lift as we climb. There's some type of factor in that, and so I'm curious to know if there's a greater cultural influence at play for that. So that's the purpose of the B part of my question.Marty: Yeah. So it's a great question, so let me just kind of unpack it. So first, I love the expression "lift as you climb," which comes from Mary McLeod Bethune, right? And ultimately, right, that's what life should be about. I always talk about the difference between ambition and aspiration, and in our world and our society and in way too many of our corporations we talk about them as though they're the same thing, and they're fundamentally different. Ambition comes from the Latin, and it literally--"Ambit" means to walk around, and what it meant, Zach, was back in the day, you were gonna walk around and you were gonna buy votes. You know, you were gonna, like, literally pay people off to vote for you, and it had a very negative connotation. And aspiration is also from the Latin, but it comes from the Latin word that means to breathe, to give air to, to give life to, to give oxygen to, and we have to be people of aspiration, and we need our firms and our companies to be companies of aspiration, right? And fundamentally what that boils down to--when you're ambitious you believe kind of in a scarcity model. You believe "I've got to hold you down so that I can lift myself up," whereas aspiration is about lifting as you climb. It's about abundance. It's about saying, "Hey, I only get lifted up by those coming after me, and it's my responsibility to reach back, give back and make a difference, to pay it forward." And so--and that I'm only there as a result of others that made my being there possible. And so with that mindset it becomes incumbent upon all of us to, you know--especially as leaders of color--to realize that we're sitting in chairs and we're occupying chairs as a result of others that came before, and sometimes we get in those chairs, and there's this sense of, "Well, hey, I'm the only one, and if there's another then they're gonna have to knock me out or knock me down." And again, that's a scarcity model. That's an ambition model. That's not an aspiration model, and we have to realize that, you know, we have to be about the business of lifting others and making a difference in that way. In terms of advice and roles for non-minority leaders, I think the simplest thing can sometimes be just an expectation of something that simple. You know, sometimes there's this whole idea of, you know, "Well, gee, if I'm here--" You know, when I first started and took on a leadership role at Accenture and was leading several of our accounts here, I very consciously wanted to have the most diverse accounts, right? And I believed if I could create the most diverse accountsand if I could create accounts that were the best accounts at the firm that people would be fighting, you know, against each other trying to get on these accounts, and if I had the best talent, then the rest would take care of itself, and some of that has to be the same spirit and ethos that non-minority leaders would have in terms of creating a culture that rewards people that recognize diversity, that bring in diversity, and say to minority leaders themselves, "You know what? You are diverse, and if you bring in more diversity, that's a good thing. And if you're helping advance other diverse leaders, that's a good thing, and we're gonna reward that." And that's a positive thing. It's not a negative thing. It's not a scarcity model. It's an abundance model.Zach: Marty, this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs? In fact, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but I know that--I know that I have a colleague who--this is from years ago, and you might not remember saying this, but she made mention of the fact that you said something like we as a people--that black people, we're, like--we're the blue note. Do you recall that statement? I wasn't there, but she said you had a statement--Marty: I have lots of statements, but yes.Zach: Man, could you just wax poetic on that please? Because--and I don't--the reason why I ask is because I wasn't there, and she wasn't even able to fully articulate what you said, but her eyes glowed when she said it, and I was like, "Man, when I speak to him--" And this was literally 4 years ago. I said, "When I speak to Marty, I'm gonna ask him to talk about this."Marty: Hm, okay. Well, the concept of the blue note comes from jazz, right? And so there's this idea that--and it's something that, you know, in our firms nowadays, and Accenture is no exception, we talk all the time about the need for innovation, right, and the need for creativity and the need for--you know, as things are going along, there might be a disruption, or there might be something that comes along that creates dramatic change, and so really that's the idea of the blue note in jazz, right? It's the moment of improvisation. It's the moment when you don't know where or how the story's going to--the music and the story is going to unfold, and really that is--you know, whether you read Cornel West or Eric Dyson or others, that's really been our history, right? That's our story, of every time we've been on a journey as a country we have served in the role of the blue note, the improvisation that moves our story forward around the realization of those very first principles that were first embedded in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution. And so, you know, whether it was--you know, our battle, originally as enslaved people or later in terms of the Civil War and fighting for freedom or the battles for reconstruction or through civil rights, or now even today as we move forward with Black Lives Matter and other movements to more fully recognize the process of more fully recognizing our humanity and more fully recognizing our citizenship has been one that has caused the country to confront and to look at itself and its values in the mirror, and we've been that blue note to help the country evolve its definition and its story as we've gone along.Zach: Man, I love that. I love that, and now it's captured on this podcast. Marty, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I'm beyond honored. I appreciate your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Marty: All right. Well, thank you, Zach, very much for having me. It's been an honor to be a part of it, and if I can ever be of help to folks on a journey, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter or otherwise. Happy to be of help.Zach: All right, Marty. Appreciate it. Peace.Marty: Take care. Bye-bye.

On the third installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield discusses a personal expertise of his: career coaching. He also tells us which three questions we should ask ourselves before we pursue a career coach. Check back next Tuesday for another tip!Tristan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/Layfield Resume Consulting: https://layfieldresume.com/Layfield Resume social media: IG, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan from Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all another weekly career tip. So today let's discuss career coaches. The first career coaching firms started back in 1946. Back then and through the '80s, career coaching was largely reserved for CEOs and executives, and career support for workers lower in the ranks typically took the form of apprenticeships. By the time millennials got into the workforce all of that was gutted, and we were left to figure out our careers on our own. Now, fast forward to today, and the times have definitely changed. There are companies now that provide their employees career coaches on day one, not necessarily so they can figure out their next step but so they can make the most of their current step. With job searching becoming increasingly difficult, career coaches like myself have risen to the occasion to try and assist job seekers and navigating them. Now that coaching is on the rise, it's imperative that we have a discussion around who should seek out a coach and why you should be selective about the coach you decide to work with. If you think you need a career coach, you more than likely do, but there are a few questions you need to ask yourself. #1: Do I understand that a career coach won't do all the work for me? #2: Am I ready to put in work to obtain the career I want? And #3: Do I have the budget to work with a coach? If you answered no to any of those questions, odds are you aren't ready for a career coach just yet. Think about a career coach like a basketball coach. They don't play the game, but they help you practice and give you all the tools you need to win. In order for you to take your game to the next level, you have to be zoned in, and you have to be ready to invest in yourself to get there. Most coaches are going to take you through a process that requires Dedication with a capital D. If you aren't ready to execute on your goals, then more than likely you aren't ready for a coach just yet. Also, remember that all coaches do not have the same methods and every coach is not for every person. You should do your research on your coach. Google them, take advantage of any free consultation or exploration calls, and if you want to go further, don't be afraid to ask for a client reference. Believe me, any good coach is vetting you just as much and should encourage you to assess if you all are a fit. After all, you're spending money, and they're spending time, and I'm sure neither one of you want to waste those precious resources. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the honor of speaking with battle rapper and musician Chilla Jones about his unique career journey, pursuing your dreams, navigating between the full-time and entrepreneurship space, and the difficulty of juggling your passion and your 9-5. Check out Chilla's website, IG, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to another B-Side. Now, look, we talked about B-Sides in season one. This is season two of Living Corporate. For those who don't know, B-Sides are basically random episodes in-between our larger episodes where we just kind of kick it, you know? Sometimes we have conversations with just me and Ade. Sometimes they're, like, kind of extended monologues, just me or Ade. Often times though, most times, they're conversations with, like, special guests, like, one-on-one discussions, and I'ma tell you, this time--this time this one's special for me, okay? Now, y'all might not know, but I'm actually a huge--I love rap in general, right? I love rap, and I love battle rap a lot. Y'all know those air horns y'all hear in the shows, like [imitating them]? That's actually inspired by battle rap, specifically Ultimate Rap Battle League, URL, and the reason why is because battle rap, to me, it combines public speaking, retention, charisma, improvisation, crowd control, all at the same time, right? And clearly y'all can tell I enjoy talking, so it's obviously a clear intersect for me. Anyway, I was always a big follower of it as a kid, but, you know, life goes on. I kind of let it fade. Well, back when I was in college I stumbled upon a battle rapper who really got me back in the game. If you can imagine Jay-Z but as a battle rapper, that's a crude reduction of who and kind of what this style is, okay? So our guest for today's B-Side is Jerome Jones, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Chilla, A.K.A. Bosstown, A.K.A. your favorite writer's favorite writer, Chilla Jones. Chilla Jones is a musician and battle rapper hailing from Boston, Massachusetts, New England. He has released several projects, but you most likely know him from battle rap. He's traveled all across the world. He's making a name for himself as one of the biggest writers to ever engage the arena. Chilla, how's it going, man?Chilla: My guy. What's going on, man? Peace up. What's good? We out here, man.Zach: We out here, man. Look, man--so look, today, man, we're talking about pursuing your dreams, you know, navigating between your full-time and the entrepreneur space. What was it like for you, and like--and you working your 9-5. When did you start really being like, "Look, I need to pursue this battle rap thing. I want to pursue this music thing."? What has it been like to juggle that? What did it look like when you got started? You know, of course we see you now. You're in--you know, you've gone to London, you've been all over the world. Of course all over the U.S., but [inaudible], you know, you've been to parts in Europe. Of course you've been in Canada often. You know, what has that journey been like for you?Chilla: It's huge, bro, and, you know, back in the day--you know, I'd been, you know, doing the 9-5 thing since I was, you know, fresh out of high school, 18 years old, and so, you know, that's kind of always been a part of my adult life, but, you know, as time went on I really devoted more and more of my personal time into music or into battle rap, depending on the era, and so--it's very interesting having to juggle both because--you know, especially nowadays. I have so many opportunities that present themselves that might require me to, you know, as you said, be in Canada or be in London or, you know, I went to Australia recently, which was a really eye-opening experience, you know? I get offers to go everywhere from, you know, Ireland to New Zealand to Amsterdam to--you know, all off the strength of my talent and my ability, so, you know, I never quite thought that I would get to travel the world and, you know, kind of expand my horizons just off the strength of my God-given talent. It's definitely a blessing, but it definitely is a sacrifice, man. You know, it's definitely--when you're thinking of transitioning from that 9-5 to, you know, doing something you love full-time, or even if you're not doing it full-time, if you're deciding to kind of devote a little bit more time to it than the normal person, you're literally having to decide and juggle between, you know, kind of having that steady income or, you know, kind of--kind of diving into something where you might be eating ramen noodles for a week, you know, waiting on your next gig, you know what I'm saying? And so I've kind of--I've kind of balanced both sides of that, and so, you know, luckily I have a job that is very understanding. They're aware of my career and very supportive, so, you know, they give me all of the flexibility that I might need, whether that's--you know, I might only be at work a couple days of the month because I might be, you know, traveling so much during that particular month, you know? And they support me, and they're very supportive in that, and I'm very lucky to kind of that situation to where I can always know that if I don't have any battles or if I don't have any shows or, you know, if I don't have anything on the rap side that's helping to contribute to my income, I have a job that I can--that I can kind of rely on for that, and, you know, when I do have all of these gigs and stuff like that, I'm not--you know, I'm not having to sacrifice the 9-5 that I have, and so I kind of have a really, really good situation worked out for me right now, but it's definitely--you know, I've been in situations where my job wasn't so supportive, and so I've had to make decisions like, "Okay, I can take this offer and go to Canada for 4 days, and I don't have any more paid time off at work, and I know if I can't make these two shifts, then I might not have a job when I get back. So, you know, I've had to make those decisions and kind of try to--try to do what's best for me in the long run, and so you really just gotta believe in yourself at the end of the day. You really just have to believe that you're doing the right thing, and you gotta follow your dreams, man. There's nothing--there's nothing worse than, you know, feeling like you didn't give it your all, and that's always just kind of what I've--what I've always kind of gone by and stood by, is like I would rather, you know, go for my dreams and fail than to stay stuck at a 9-5 and just always wonder "What if?" Like, you never want to wonder--you never want to wonder "What if," you know what I mean? That's my stance.Zach: Yeah, man. Yeah, and it's funny you talk about your job. That was actually another question I had. So, like, what does it look like, right, when you--so you show up--of course for those who don't know, right, like, who haven't seen you do your thing, whatever whatever. You know, you're a black man, and you're a moderately tall person. You're a--I wouldn't say, like, you're a scary, imposing--you're not, like, you know, sloppy like Suge or nothing like that, but, you know, you're a large black man. Like, what does it look like when you articulate to people, "Hey," you know? When you talk to your employer, "Hey, I'm a battle rapper." Like, how do those conversations go, and how does that--you know, you say they're supportive. You know, what does that--what does that look like, just to kind of, like, broach the topic and then talk about your profession?Chilla: Right. I mean, honestly it was--you know, initially it was something that I--that I hid, you know? And I think a lot of us, us battle rappers, do that, you know? I hid my career from my job, and so, you know, at first I would say "Oh, I'm going out of town for this reason," or that reason, and, you know, "I need to be off. I need to leave on Friday," and, you know, "I'll be back Sunday night or Monday morning," and so I'd name this shift or that shift that I'm scheduled for, and, you know, doing that a couple of times, they really--they really don't trip, but as it--as it happens more often and more consistently, I kind of--I kind of just thought in my head, like, you know, "The only way this is going to work and work in my favor is if I'm honest," and so I actually had just got offered a promotion, and, you know, the promotion was kind of to a lofty position, and they--you know, as we were in the office and we were discussing salary and everything like that, you know, I figured that was a really good time to kind of be honest, and so--you know, I told them I was interested in the position and I would love to the job, but I have a career, and this is what I do, and this is what that looks like, and this is what I need from you if you want me to do this position for you. And so, you know, I need flexibility on your end for me to be able to do A, B, and C, and if I can do that, then when I'm here and I'm working I will give you flexibility on D, E, and F, you know what I mean? And so it's definitely a compromise there, and like I said, they are in support of it. They will even watch my battles, and they'll come to work and quote certain things that I've said, and it's so weird because it's such a--you know, the environment that I work in, you would never expect, you know, to have, you know, 40-year old, 50-year old, you know, Caucasian men and women or [inaudible] with all types of different, you know, backgrounds and, you know, all types of different, you know, places that they've grown up in and things that they're interested in. Like, you know, I don't think anybody where I work is even interested in hip hop to be for real, you know what I mean? It's other things like that, but, you know, they take an interest in it because, you know, they see that I'm good at it, that I have a talent, and they see where it takes me and where I go and how long I'm gone and the kind of money I make when I'm not there, and so it's just a--it's just a really, really beautiful situation, and so, you know, it really, really helps to have the support of your higher-ups, because they, you know, are just so understanding, and they allow you to do what you need to do, and they understand that, although it is a priority, you know, it's just a means to an end, you know what I mean? So that was a--that was a big turning point for me in my career, to have their support and to have their kind of--you know, them behind me in terms of me being able to go after what I'm trying to go after.Zach: Well, I would imagine, man, it's also, like, a weight off your back, right? Because it's one less thing you gotta worry about, right? The more transparently you can move while you do--while you pursue your passions, the more energy you're gonna have for your passions, right? So, like, I would imagine you just being able to just kind of be more of yourself and bring more of yourself frankly to work. Not that you're gonna be scheming on your boss, but you can just kind of--you know, you can be yourself and let people know what you're about. When you leave, you say, "Hey, I gotta go." Like you said, you're not having to kind of create stories and excuses and narratives and things of that nature. So, you know, you talked about--you talked about the travel and the doors that battle rap and your really--again, just kind of beyond just battle rap, your music has opened for you. Would you mind talking a little bit about Drop the Mic? I'm not asking you to share any secret sauce or anything like that, but kind of talk to us about how that opportunity happened. And for those who don't know, y'all, Drop the Mic--when y'all see, like, these celebrities and they're, like, rapping against each other, that's a TV show called Drop the Mic, right? And Chilla Jones is involved in that. So yeah, you go ahead, man.Chilla: Yeah. You know, so the opportunity first presented itself through another battler named Rome, and so Rome at one point was one of the contributing head writers on the show, in the very first season, and so, you know, he had a little leverage and a little leeway to kind of be able to--you know, he and the executive producer by the name of Jensen Karp. You know, Jensen was formally a battle rapper in the California, Los Angeles, scene. And so, you know, he is a big battle rap fan. You know, he knows, like, you know, the sources and the [inaudible] and a lot of those people from back in the day, the early [inaudible]. WRCs, [inaudible], in that kind of era. So, you know, it was very important for Jensen to incorporate some of the new age, you know, battle rappers into the show in terms of having them contribute by, you know, either assisting in the writing process or in coaching some of the celebrities to, you know, make sure when they go on stage they sound as good as possible. And so during that very first season, you know, they both reached out to me in regards to helping and contributing on the show, and, you know, obviously my kind of reputation as, you know, the Kingpin or, you know, one of the greatest writers in battle rap, it kind of seems like a no-brainer to have me involved in that process. And so, you know, they reached out to me. I went out to Hollywood. I was able to work with, you know, Wayne Brady, Jake Owen, Boyz II Men, Rascal Flatts. A bunch of different--a bunch of different people who were all really dope, humble, down-to-earth celebrities, and, you know, I got a chance to work with them and, you know, help them construct their lines and teach them the best ways to rap it or flow it over the beat, and man, I've been on every season since, you know what I mean? And so it's a very dope process. I've got a chance to meet and network with a lot of dope people. I love the concept of the show. I think it's a genius show. Salute to Method Man as well, who had a big hand in bringing me on as well. Method co-hosted my battle with Daylyt in 2014. He's been a big fan as well as a mentor ever since. He always keeps in touch and, you know, he also was somebody who cosigned bringing me on the show as well. So it's just been a really humbling experience, man. That's just one of the many things that battle rap has done for me and has allowed me to do, and it's just--it's really humbling, you know? I never thought that battle rap would lead to so many different avenues, you know, that could [inaudible], you know what I mean? It's just--it's really been a humbling and a wonderful thing.Zach: You know, and speaking of that battle, when you hit that blue meth line in that battle against Daylyt, I saw Method's face in the background and I was like, "Oh, I bet they're gonna be cool after this." Like, that was one of my favorite battles also. Yeah, so let's keep it going. So I'm curious, man, and I don't want to get you in trouble, and this is not a battle rap podcast, but you know I'm a battle rap fan. Let me ask you this. If you had to look at--if you look at the battle rap scene today, who are--out of the new guard, right, who out there is in your atmosphere, right? So are you looking at Loso? Twork? A-Ward? Like, who out there this year are you like, "Yo, you gotta face these bars."? Like, who out there is on your list?Chilla: As far as, you know, people I want to see in the near future, A. Ward for sure is in there. I would love to battle Nitty. I would like to battle Loso, but you know what's funny? Me and Loso, as well as me and A. Ward, we're actually al pretty close, you know what I mean? They're both two guys that are humble. They're smart, they're talented, and, you know, I kind of make it a habit when I come across certain people to reach out and just be like, "Yo, if you need something, if there's anything I can do," you know, any advice I can give you. You know, I always extend myself to the new guard to let them know that, you know, I'm here as a support--as a veteran, as a support system. You know, if there's anything you need, like, you know, I'm here for that, and those are two guys that have both definitely taken advantage of that, but the funny thing is I still want to destroy A. Ward, you know what I mean? Like, me and A. Ward are so competitive that, you know, that battle is still gonna happen, and, you know, it's still gonna be an amazing battle, but on the flip side it's--like, I don't know that I can see myself battling Loso, and it's not even that I'm closer with Loso, but me and Loso just have a different type of--a different type of relationship. I'm not saying it could never happen, but I guess I'm just saying that I'm more anxious and eager to battle A-Ward. But A-Ward, Nitty for sure, Ave--I'm really close to Ave too. I think Ave is amazing. Ave is also on my list. I would love to battle him. I think it would be a really good battle.Zach: That'd be a great battle. Now, you skimmed over Twork. Was that on purpose? Are you--Chilla: Those are the names that come to mind. I think Twork's dope, and I would battle Twork as well, but I don't know. Zach: All right, bet. Bet, bet. So, you know, it's interesting because--so to your point about the people that you named, right, I definitely think--so when I look at, like, that four horsemen group--so of course, you know, you and I have had conversations before, like, when you and Saga battled and you was kind of clowning him about the thing, and I was like, "Aye," you know? Whatever whatever, but out of the four horsemen I actually think A. Ward has all of the elements--like, his pen to me is the most aggressive and impressive in terms of the fact that he can do--he kind of does everything really well, right? Like he has the--he always has a crazy scheme in the second round. He starts off with some nice personals. He wraps it up at the end with, like, a Christian gospel presentation at the end, which of course I find is dope. I'm biased in that way. [laughs] And then of course you got Nitty, who I just think--I really think, man, he's up there, man. Like, I think he would--I really think--so A. Ward would be an entertaining battle, you know? Loso would be cool. I think that Nitty, like, honestly, man, would give you, like--I think Nitty would give you your best challenge though, I do.Chilla: Oh, for sure. No, I agree. I think Nitty--right now, you know, my honest opinion is that me, Nitty, and JC are kind of the three best pens.Zach: I agree with that.Chilla: And so, you know, obviously me and JC have already gone to war and so have JC and Nitty, and so yeah. I agree with you 1000%. If we're talking bar for bar, if we're talking pen for pen, yeah, nobody's gonna give me a tougher match than probably Nitty and, you know, maybe Twork, you know what I mean? If that ever happens.Zach: Yeah, if it happens, if he--you know what I'm saying, if he comes ready and all that stuff, you know, all those various elements, I think--I think what's scary about Nitty is I don't think we've--I think he's had a couple of stumbles, but when you talk about consistency, man, like, he's up there. Like, him, when you talk about--let's take, like, a kind of, like, pivot for a second. So when you talk about consistent battle rappers, it's like, what, him--A. Ward's pretty consistent, but him, DNA, Danny Myers. Like, them cats are, like, very, very consistent, man. You ain't gotta really worry about if he's gonna come at you--not even if he's gonna get his bars out. So being that you never have to worry about him getting his bars out, but sometimes you're like, "Eh, these bars are kind of [inaudible]," but then, like, Nitty it's like--not only do you not have to worry about him getting his bars out, them bars gonna be crazy when they come out, right? And so, you know, it's just--I'm really curious, man. I'm trying to see what's going on, you know? Of course we're all--I follow the news and stuff, and I'm hearing about, you know, people that you might be battling, but I'm really excited to see some of 'em, and I think 2019 is gonna be a crazy year. You've been on top for a while, you know? And you talked just a second about, you know, being a mentor. You know, what--and you say, you know, you offer your services and your time. You know, what are things that you wish folks would have helped you with as you kind of got into it? Like, after you whooped Interstate Flames, and after you beat Gatman Jones, and then after you beat M. Ciddy, and then you beat Cash Eatin. And, like, at what point--at what point was it like, "Okay, can somebody help me?" Like, did anyone kind of help pull you aside and kind of pour into you, or did you kind of have to find out things the hard way? Chilla: For the most part, man, I had to find out things the hard way, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't really--being that, you know, A. I was from Boston, and, you know, there was kind of nobody before me from Boston, and so I--you know I didn't have a path to follow. I had to create one, and, you know, there was kind of nobody that I could reach out to or anything like that. So I'll tell you for the most part I had to kind of learn everything, but I can tell you back in those days, you know, there were some people that helped, you know? Mickey Factz was a big mentor for me, you know, in terms of helping me make certain career decisions, and a great person to spar with, and he's a very, very tough critic as far as you let him kind of hear your material. Stuff that you might think is amazing he might hear and be like, "Eh, you can do better," you know what I mean? And so he was a really, really important part of the elevation of my pen and the, you know, versatility that I began to show over time, but I do wish I had more of that on the battle rap side, you know, from somebody who actually battled back then, because at that time Mickey hadn't really jumped in the ring yet. He was still just, you know, an underground artist that everybody kind of knew about and followed the culture, but I didn't have anybody within, you know, as a battle rapper within the culture really take me under their wing or anything like that, and, you know, leading into the DNA battle and even after the DNA battle, I feel like that's something that that would've been the time where I would've needed it the most, you know what I mean? And I kind of didn't have that, and so that's part of the reason why I extend myself, especially to certain people. Like, when I look at Loso I'm like, "Man, you don't--there's nobody else that I know of from Tampa that's, you know, making as much noise as you are as far as battle rap, and so you probably don't have that person." I mean obviously he has John John, 'cause he came up through BullPen. So I know he definitely has some people in his corner, you know, and it's kind of the same thing with A. Ward. He's from Missouri, so obviously there's the Hitmans, the Verbs, but he's also from Kansas City. He's not from St. Louis.Zach: Right, it's different spaces.Chilla: Exactly, way different spaces, and so, you know for a lot of those guys that I know are coming from maybe some towns or some markets where, you know, they're kind of creating a path for their town or their city, I like to kind of extend myself and say, "Yo, if you ever need anything, if you need to run your bars by someone, if you have any career questions about what battles you should take or anything like that, you know, inside and outside of battle rap, man. Just, you know, in life in general, man. Just know that I'm a resource here for you that you can use whenever necessary." And so, you know, at the end of the day I just--I see it every day, and I think we all see it as black men. We see talent go by the wayside a lot of times, whether that's, you know, people falling victim to the streets or jail or whatever the case, and then, you know, even within battle rap there's a lot--there's a lot of people with extreme talent that we see don't live up to their potential.Zach: So look, man. Let's talk about it. You're absolutely right. Then to your point though around just people in your circle, making sure they're holding you accountable and being like, "Hey, you know that bar wasn't really that great." You know, you can kind of tell if you're a fan and you're listening to the--you're watching these battles, like, who had someone who they sparred with who told them the truth, and then who had maybe just a bunch of yes men or they rushed it and wrote it at the last minute? They didn't really have anyone holding them accountable, and I think--you know, I think in any realm, in corporate, creative, music, whatever the space is, you need someone who's gonna kind of keep it 100 with you, otherwise you walk out here talking about that Surf/Twork battle when he said, "Think witch's parking lot - all brooms." I was like, "What does that mean, sir?" Like, what does that--what does that mean? Like, what are you saying, right? You know? And there's plenty of people we can name. This is not a--it's not no disrespect to nobody, but it's just--like, there's value in that mentorship, and to your point, right, as black men, like, it's obvious when you see talent go by the wayside in a variety of spaces for a variety of reasons, and when you--and it hurts because you can see the potential. You're like, "Man, I know you want it. I know you want to do better than this. I know that you don't want to be rapping like this," right? "I know that you don't want to be performing like this. I know that you want to be the best you can be," and what sucks about battle rap is that it's on such a public stage, right? So it's like you can't--you don't have the luxury of failing in moderate privacy. Like, you're failing in front of, like, potentially hundreds of thousands of people online, right? Well, look--go ahead. No, keep going.Chilla: No, I was gonna say it's--you know, that was what I learned with, you know, the DNA battle and, you know, I mean, even though I feel like I won that battle, I feel like it was [inaudible].Zach: It was a--it was a body bag, but yeah. [inaudible].Chilla: Yeah, but there was a lot to be learned, because that was--you know, I went from battling in front of 400-500 people to battling in front of 3,000 people. I went from getting, you know, 200,000-300,000 views on my battles to 700,000-800,000 views. Like, that was a huge step up for me in terms of name and tier and everything like that, and so coming into the--coming into the sport, you know, the DNA battle was maybe my sixth battle ever, and so it's different--it's different when you look at other people, like, say, John John Da Don. John John Da Don had maybe 12 battles on Grind Time before he even walked onto URL, and so he was able to take that experience with him to a new league and kind of dominate, because he had already kind of worked out the flaws in his style. He had already figured out the best way to memorize his bars. He had mastered performing in front of certain groups of people. And so for me, I had to learn in front of the world, and so it was--it was such a big, different--it was such a different environment for me than for a lot of the other people that we look at as stars today, because they had--they had the opportunity to groom themselves in their leagues and have between 10 and 20 battles before they went to URL. I had the two battles that you had talked about earlier on this podcast, which was the Gatman Jones and the Interstate Flamez. Those were the only two battles I had in this format before I stepped foot on the biggest league in the world. So imagine--so, like, imagine LeBron playing two high school games before he gets called up to the NBA, you know what I mean?Zach: It was a crazy jump, man, because you went from--yeah, you did. So you went Gatman, Interstate, and they were crazy body bags, so then--so the buzz got quick, right? Your stock went crazy up, then you went--correct me if I'm wrong. Was it Cash Eatin then M. Ciddy then JC?Chilla: Yeah.Zach: Yeah. So it was Cash Eatin, bodied. M. Ciddy--you know, at the time classic, whatever whatever, then JC of course a certified classic. Then from there--in that room, how big--how many people were in that room with you and JC? Like, 500? Like, how many people?Chilla: Me and JC was probably like 250, 300. It was a really small room, intimate space.Zach: Small room, yeah.Chilla: Small room, intimate space, but the energy in that room, man, I'll never forget it. Such an amazing energy.Zach: Crazy energy in that room. So you go from a small--and again, a small room battle where everybody's gonna feel the bars more, whatever whatever, to this, like--and admittedly, 'cause I came from--when I was watching battle rap as a kid, Chilla, I was watching it, like, with--you know, of course everybody, every millennial who watches battle rap knows the Serius Jones/Murda Mook battle. So, like, that was the kind of vibe I was used to, [Jin's battles?]. Like, those were the types of the spaces, and so I was even kind of taken aback when I was watching you rap, and I was like, "Dang, okay. This is crazy. This stage is really big." Like, "This is completely different." You got Kevin Durant in the background. You got a huge--it's like an auditorium, right? It's a theater. And so yeah, it's crazy, man. It was a crazy jump, man, but it's interesting, and, you know, I'm trying to take my fanboy hat off, 'cause part of me is like--1. it's great that you chose to learn and grow from that. I've seen--I could see another angle of--and I've seen this in other battle rappers that we don't have to namedrop, right?--where it's like you can be stubborn and be like, "Nah, I was just ahead of my time. Y'all weren't ready at the time. If I was to do that now it would be crazy, and I'm not gonna change," right? But you made a decision to start doing other things, right, what you kind of highlighted in that Prep battle when you talked about you got--you got angles, personals, you know, you have all these different weapons now, and you grew from that. Man, this has been a great conversation. I'm curious, you know, you have a ton of bars, right? Like, you have a ton of schemes, battles, people that you've battled. You know, if you had to say, like, one of your favorite punches, your favorite schemes, you know, what--do you have one that you kind of, like, think about often? If so, would you mind kind of, like, breaking it down?Chilla: Let me think. I mean, recent memory... there's a couple. So there's one in my battle versus Iron Solomon, and it's in the first round, and it's a Celtics scheme. And so it says something--it's something along the lines of--so first I'll do the scheme, and then I'll break it down. So it goes, "My fans strong in the building, of course I'ma sell tics so save the hatin'. You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." Right, and so it actually starts before that, but I'll get into that in a second. And so how I introduce the scheme is I say something like, "I'm hands on. You came for God, and hey, word. I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope his punches don't land wrong. My fans strong in the building." So you came for "God, and hey, word," so that's Gordon Hayward. "I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope your punches don't land wrong." So that's about his injury last year when he--you know, he broke a leg when he jumped and he landed wrong. And so then it goes into "My fans strong in this building. Of course I'ma sell tics, so save the hatin'." Sell tics, Celtics. "You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement." So that's "you think it's Rozier," Terry Rozier, on this side. "Well, be Smart," Marcus Smart, before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Jaylen Brown. Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Marcus Morris. "Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'." So back then we had a backup point guard named Shane Larkin. "That Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." So it's like, Gordon Hayward, Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Morris, Shane Larkin, Jayson Tatum. So it's, like, seven or eight Celtics players in that Celtics scheme. So for personal reasons, battling a legend like Iron Solomon in Boston--and I don't get very many battles in Boston nowadays--to be able to do a Boston Celtics scheme while they were in the middle of a crazy playoff run without Kyrie Irving was really, really dope to me. The other scheme that comes to mind [inaudible] that I really like was a scheme I did versus Gjonaj. It was the Super Mario scheme.Zach: Oh, yes, yes.Chilla: Let me see if I remember this one off the top of my head. I wish I could also remember what he said, because he had a line about Super Mario in his third round, but I kind of rebuttaled it with lines of Super Mario 3. "I'm making moves behind the scenes. Who's whistleblowing?" Zach: Oh, I remember that, yeah.Chilla: Yeah, which if you're a Mario fan that's dope. Super Mario 3, you can run behind the level, behind the background, and when you blow the whistle you warp to a different--to a different world. And so in response I said, "I needed talks like this when I got in the game. This is a lot like--" I said, "You're right, this is a lot like Super Mario. I know, I first thought it was strange, but they battle rap 'cause a good job is not in their range, and they don't want to jump up to hit the block for change. Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they the jealous type. The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she let you pipe. Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life."Zach: Oh, my God.Chilla: "But the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stay with you, but when you get bigger, they'll do anything to belittle you. But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So the whole scheme is--the whole scheme is, like, all Mario'd out. So "Jump up and hit the block for some change." Obviously if you've played Mario, you jump up, you hit the blocks, the coins come out. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet." So there are bullets in Mario that have faces on them that fly at you. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe," so Princess Peach, and obviously in Mario you go down the pipes into the different levels and warp zones and things like that. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night." So Boo is the name of the ghost that if you run toward it it stays still, and if you turn your back to it it flies towards you to get you. So "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." So 1-up is the green mushroom that gives you an extra life. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." So when you're an up-and-comer and you're learning and developing, everybody's on your team, but then also in the Mario sense, when you get a mushroom you grow. "When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you, but when you get bigger they'd do anything to belittle you." So whether it's on Mario when you get hit with a shell or a fireball or a plant or something happens, you get smaller. They'd do anything to belittle you. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." When you get the star, nothing can kill you. So the whole--that whole scheme is--yeah, it's just, like, 8, 12 bars of just Mario references, but also relating it to him. Kind of funny it ties into what we were talking about earlier, but it's like I'm almost mentoring him. I'm telling him--you know, the whole thing is me saying, you know, "We battle rap because some of us can't get a good job for whatever reason," so we battle rap because we don't want to go to the streets. We don't want to jump up and hit the block for some change. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they're the jealous type." People will try to kill you for your fame. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe." Just because she sees you're famous and has sex with you doesn't mean she's really down for you. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." She's gonna do you dirty because in the end, if you guys end up breaking up, she wants to feel like she has something on you. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." They love you as an up-and-comer. "When you get bigger, they'd do anything to belittle you." When you hit a certain tier and you stop being the underdog, all fans want to do is see you lose. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So whether or not you're winning or losing battles, if you have that charisma, if you have that star power, you'll continue to grow and [inaudible]. So I was, like, totally mentoring him, but at the same time breaking him down using Mario references. So that's probably one of my favorite schemes ever, but that's from the battle I did with Gjonaj. I want to say this was 2017--Zach: Was it 2016?Chilla: I don't know if it was 2016 or 2017. I want to say it was 2017 to be honest, but--Zach: Oh, right. It just hit 2019. You're right. It was 2017, man. Yeah.Chilla: It was 2017, yeah. So it'll be 2 years in April that that battle came out--that that battle happened, I'm sorry. But yeah, that's easily--especially because he had the Mario line in the third round and this kind of came after it. Easily one of my favorite schemes that I've ever done. Like, the way it's put together, I just think it's so good. So good.Zach: Nah, man. It was phenomenal. I remember that battle, and it was--so my homeboy E. Mike--I'm actually gonna drop his name--we were watching it at his apartment, and man, he heard that, and he had--I think he had his phone, and he threw his phone across the spot. Like, he was shocked. It was so funny. I was like, "That is crazy." See, I thought you were gonna say--first of all though of course, phenomenal choice. Like, how can I critique you on the choices? I asked a question and you gave me your favorite schemes. I thought that you were gonna talk about that third round scheme against JC when you said, "We handle MACs well, so whatever I'm aiming will leave your baby face on that black street." Chilla: Oh, the R&B scheme. Zach: Yes, that was crazy.Chilla: I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many schemes that I can reference. I mean, obviously that's a really good one. The music instrument scheme in that same battle, the car parts scheme in that same battle. M. Ciddy I had the Out of This World scheme, which was like--there's so many schemes that I could mention. I tried to pick something that was fairly recent.Zach: And they were clean too.Chilla: Yeah, but there's so many, like--man, I probably have 25 to 30 schemes that I could have picked, you know, that I really, really like. Like, I have a--especially over time, man, I've--my standards for schemes have gone up because A. because I have a reputation for them, but also B. because people do them so much that, you know, I have to separate myself. So it would be different if I was the only person doing it. You know, my standards wouldn't have to be so high, but the fact that every battler tries to scheme at some point in their career and at some point in most of their battles, like, I have to--I have to have a--I have to be at a level that shows a clear difference of, like, "That's why they say he's the best at scheming. He's way better than everybody else." And so I try to put it together in a way that gives people that impression.Zach: Well, you know, what I'm excited about, and I'm just happy that you were able to join the podcast, because, you know, we--the type of people we try to interview, right--so we try to interview corporate professionals, social influencers, and then creatives, right? Non-white in all those different spaces, and I think, you know, your space is unique because, you know, there are just very few people who can do what you do, and it's exciting because I feel as if on our podcast, the guests that we have, they all have, like, really unique talents, skill sets, experiences, perspectives. So as I let you go, and before I do that rather, what, if any, projects do you want to shout out? Do you have anything you want to plug? Anything you want to talk about? Any parting words? Anything going on at all?Chilla: So shout-outs, first and foremost King of the Dot Championship, London, England, March 3rd. Make sure you guys tune in. It's Chilla Jones versus Head Ice for the King of the Dot Championship. If you're not into battle rap, if you don't follow battle rap, this is a really good event for you to get started. You can get a pay-per-view and watch it live on your computer, your mobile phone, your Xbox, your PlayStation, your Amazon Fire Stick, your smart TV. However you want to do it. Definitely get involved with the culture. See what we're about. See what I am about. Also I want to give a big shout-out to my bro. Me and my brother have a big project coming out in 2019 musically. I haven't put out a music project since 2014. I'm super, super excited about it. A lot of big features. I got Method Man on there. I got a couple other people on there. Man, I'm so happy with this project. I can't wait to start letting you guys hear it. We're planning on releasing the first single with the Head Ice battle, as that drops on King of the Dot's YouTube channel at the end of March, so be on the lookout for that as well. Otherwise you can follow me on Twitter @ChillaJones. Follow me on Instagram, @ChillaJones as well, or tune into the website, www.ChillaJones.com. I got all types of Kingpin merchandise. You can see all of my battles there. You can read my bio. You can check out my last music project. Anything Chilla Jones-related, I promise you can find it on www.ChillaJones.com.Zach: Man, first of all, again, I'm just--I'm shocked that we were able to get you on the show. We've been scheming trying to--no pun intended--trying to get you on here. We've been plotting this for some months. Chilla: Yeah, for a while, man. I'm happy to be here. Happy to do it for sure.Zach: Yeah, man. Well, look, man, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Of course you can check us out everywhere on living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. We're also at livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv. Just know livingcorporate.com, we told y'all this before, Australia owns livingcorporate.com. I don't know what's going on. They've got, like, some type of apartment selling website over there, so we can't get that domain, but we have every other domain. Like, it's crazy. You can also follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. This has been Zach. You have been listening to Chilla Jones, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Martin Luther Kingpin, A.K.A. Bosstown.Chilla: Yes, sir.Zach: Peace.

On the second installment of Tristan's Tips, our esteemed guest Tristan Layfield discusses the best day of the week to apply for a job. He also cites an interesting study. Check back next Tuesday for another tip!Tristan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/Layfield Resume Consulting: https://layfieldresume.com/Layfield Resume social media: IG, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today I'm gonna let you in on a little secret - shh, don't tell anybody. We're gonna talk about the best day of the week to apply to jobs. Do you even think about what day it is when you're applying to jobs? If your answer was "no," then I was like you not too long ago. I used to apply for a new job sometimes during the week after I got off work or on the weekends when I had time. I never really thought about there being a quote-unquote "good time" to apply, but apparently research says otherwise. A study conducted by Bright.com, a job search site, looked at more than half a million job submissions and found that applicants are more likely to advance in the hiring process--A.K.A. receive an interview--if they sent their resume in on a Monday as opposed to any other day of the week. According to the study, one out of three people who applied on a Monday moved forward in the process. I'm sure you're wondering, "Well, why is Monday the best day?" Unfortunately Bright.com's study didn't really have an explanation, but one of their senior analysts hypothesized that recruiters received these resumes at the start of their work week, which means they're more likely to read them while the week is still fresh. As the week continues on, the resumes pile up and get lost in the job searching black hole we know as the recruiter's desk. Now, keep in mind, there are factors in play other than just the submission date or time. These can include industry differences and the length of time the job has been posted, not to mention a significant variable - your professional documents, like your resume and cover letter. So no matter what day or time you're applying, be sure to have your resume, cover letter, and LinkedIn ready so you don't have to get ready. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We're thankful to be able to speak with Mentor and Mentees member Crystle Johnson as we continue with and expand on our discussion of how best to empower and advocate for black women in the workplace and why it's so important. She also talks about her exciting new job and her foundation, The Red Lip Collective!Connect with Crystle on IG and Twitter!Learn more about The Red Lip Collective! IG, TwitterTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. We actually have a very special episode, a co-branded, co-sponsored episode between Living Corporate and Mentors and Mentees. We have Crystle Johnson, a member of Mentors and Mentees, on the podcast. We're very excited to have her here today, excited to talk about her story, her journey, as we talk about supporting black women at work. Crystle, how are you doing, ma'am? Welcome to the show.Crystle: Hi, I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here.Zach: Now, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Crystle: Of course. So I'm an inclusion and belonging strategist, serial collaborator, and founder of the Red Lip Collective. I believe that our stories cultivate empathy, and empathy is the key to creating inclusive spaces where we can all belong and thrive. So a little bit about me early on in life is that I was adopted at 2 weeks old, and neither of my parents finished middle school. So from a really young age my parents did push me to do well, and they sacrificed a lot to ensure that I had the things that I needed to succeed. My mother was a CNA, and my father worked at the same company for nearly 50 years. The most memorable moment, or I would say example, of someone reaching their goals no matter what was actually my father. He had never learned to read or write well, but with perseverance and commitment he actually passed his CBL exam in his late 50s. He didn't give up no matter what, and I will really never forget that.Zach: That's incredible, and I love the fact that most of us, black or white frankly, but we can look back at someone in our life, in our family, who's had to overcome and persevere. At the same time, because of just the way that America is set up, definitely every black and brown person has some story of someone in their family who had to really overcome something pretty serious to really move forward. I know an example for me, my grandfather, he had--he could not read or write well either, but that didn't stop him from being extremely successful as an entrepreneur in the real estate business. And so it's the fact that we're able to kind of reach back and look at our family, look at our lineage, and see stories of resilience and adaptability, it helps us in our day-to-day to kind of overcome some of the challenges that we have and can help us really kind of keep things in perspective for some of the things that we think are so hard or so challenging. Like, you know what? There are people who came before us who had much bigger challenges who were able to be just as successful if not more successful, so I can do this too. So look, today we're talking about supporting black women at work. Can you talk a little bit about your professional journey? Maybe talk about when you did not feel supported at work and then also when you did feel supported at work and what it did for you.Crystle: Yes, for sure. So my career has been a whirlwind. So in 2013 I earned an MBA with an HR management focus, and over the next few years I would apply for many roles in HR, but because I didn't have any years of experience I was continuously rejected for these roles. And then somewhere along the way I learned that I shouldn't share my dreams or my aspirations, because if they left my lips they would never come to fruition. So at some point I decided to do something a little bit different. I hadn't been sharing my goals and aspirations, and I wasn't getting anywhere, so I decided to flip what I learned on its head and start sharing my goals and aspirations. One of the first people that I shared with was actually a leader at the organization I was working at at the time, and I've always been very ambitious, but he really let me know that I was too ambitious and that I needed to be a little more patient and lower my expectations. And although I accepted the feedback very respectfully from him, I had no intention of following it 100%, but what I did learn from that piece of advice is that I needed to be more patient with myself, because no one's career--most people's careers have not been linear. But a time when I really felt like I was supported was sometime after that I shared these goals with a black woman, who was a leader at that same organization, and she took some interest in me, and she supported me. She shared really practical tips of how I could gain experience, and most importantly she helped me to focus on one thing that was of importance to me, that I felt passionate about. So through those conversations with her I really narrowed down my area of focus as the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So not too long after that I landed my first role in this space at Bosch, which is a global engineering organization. I'm also excited to announce some breaking news about my career if you're interested in hearing it, Zach.Zach: Hold up. Breaking news? On the Living Corporate podcast? Come on, now!Crystle: So as of next week I'll actually be starting a new role with Pandora Media as the senior manager of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Whoa! That's crazy. Cue the air horns for that, whoa. That's crazy. Congratulations!Crystle: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: Who are you gonna be reporting to?Crystle: So I'll be reporting to the chief diversity officer, and I'm super excited to build on the work that Pandora has already done in this space, and if you'd like to learn more about our diversity efforts, there's recently been a post on LinkedIn, actually, about an update about diversity and inclusion at Pandora. Zach: Absolutely. So we'll make sure to get that link, put it in the show notes. That's awesome. Okay, wow. So Pandora? You know, what's really interesting too is that I know that Pandora has a podcasting platform. I know that Living Corporate--we're, like, on every platform, right? Like, we're on iHeart, Stitcher, iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, but I don't think we're on Pandora yet. We need to get over there.Crystle: Yes, absolutely. Pandora actually just launched podcasts, so it would be great to have Living Corporate added as a great addition to the list of podcasts that are there.Zach: Man. Okay, okay. So now let me--let me ask you this, 'cause I thought about this while you were talking about the fact that you met a black woman who kind of helped--not kind of, she helped. She mentored you. She gave you the advice that you needed to help kind of narrow and focus in on what you--on what you wanted to do. What was the emotional impact of seeing a black woman in a position of authority at work?Crystle: Yeah. So I would definitely say that I felt really empowered through her. So throughout my career I hadn't really ever seen very many black women in leadership. Obviously there are lots of women in leadership, but there aren't very many black women or other women of color in leadership. So she really made me feel really empowered, like I could actually do it, and that's why I have this mantra of "representation matters," because you can't be what you can't see. So being able to see myself in her really helped to propel me forward.Zach: "You can't be what you can't see." I love that. That's so true. And, you know, my experience is very similar to yours, Crystle. Like, actually, all of my bosses really, save for, like, one or two, have actually been women, but I haven't had many, if any, women of color who were my--who were my bosses or my leads or my managers in my consulting career or before consulting in industry. I never had that, and yet, you know, when I see--when I see black and brown people in positions of leadership around me, or even if I just see it in the media, I see it represented, I do--I feel more empowered. And I'm a manager now, right? But when I think about if I want to continue climbing the ladder and I want to be, like, a director, or down the road be some type of an executive, seeing people in those positions, it empowers me, right? It makes me feel like there's hope for me, like there's a reason for me to really continue to push and get this, and it makes it seem attainable. It helps me--it encourages me that it's attainable, so that's amazing. What advice would you give to those who say, "I know black women are underrepresented and undersupported, and I want to help them, but I don't really know how or where to start. I don't really know how to, you know, build a relationship or really make sure that they know I'm their friend and I'm here for them." Like, what advice would you give to folks who are in that space?Crystle: Yeah. So definitely I would say that anyone can support black or brown women at work, or women in general at work. So I actually like to call--I like to call this process the "LEO" method. So Listen is for L, E for empathize, and O for offer your support. So when you listen, you actually need to take a step back, take in what it is that the person is telling you about their career aspirations, the opportunities or obstacles that they're facing within their career. Then you need to empathize with them, so you have to realize that your experience isn't the only experience. So don't minimize what this woman has gone through within her career. Just empathize and take it all in. And then third, you want to offer your help. So don't tell her how you can help her, but really just ask the question - "How can I help you to be more successful? How can I leverage my resources?" Or "How can I be an ally for you to assist you with propelling you forward or for you to get through these barriers or obstacles that you're facing?"Zach: That's incredible. And, you know, let me--let me ask this. Yeah, let me ask this. So while it's definitely--there's definitely value in being able to ask, and I think that shares a certain level of humility, right? Because I think sometimes when you--when you don't ask people, like, "How can I support you? How can I help you?" It kind of can turn kind of like maternalistic or paternalistic, where you're treating them like they don't know what they want as if they're kids, but at the same time--at the same time I'm curious. I would challenge that we also need people who will make suggestions on how they can help us, because we don't always know what we don't know, right? Like, we don't know the doors in the rooms that we need to be in, or we don't understand the processes and stuff like that, so we also need people--I mean, you tell me what you think, but I would say that we also need people who are gonna be able to say, "Look, you don't know how to get over here, but I do. This is what I'm suggesting. This is what I think you should do." Like, do you think there's value in that too?Crystle: Yeah, I definitely think that there's value in it, and I think that you should collaborate with that woman that you're trying to assist. So I think it does work both ways, but I think coming out of the gate you should definitely ask the question - "How can I support you?" And then from there collaborate on next steps on how you can get her to the next level.Zach: 100%, absolutely. Okay. Well, this is great. The LEO method. I love this. And you can't see--you can't become what you can't see. Man, you got some gems, Crystle. I see why they got you over there at Pandora. I see you. And you finessed this thing and turned it into a promotion for Pandora, and we're not even sponsored by them. So you finessed me a couple times! This is actually pretty dope, I'm not gonna lie. I'm actually very impressed. So I know we talked about Pandora, but let's talk a little bit more about your group in 2019, and, like, what are you--what are you looking to accomplish this year? What are you excited about? What are the products that you have kind of cooking, and what would you like to--you know, what information would you like for the audience to have that they could kind of look up later after the podcast episode?Crystle: Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier in our conversation, I actually recently founded an organization by the name of The Red Lip Collective. So I founded the organization because the thought just kept pulling at my heart, because when I wear red lipstick I feel very confident. I feel fearless, and I feel empowered, and I wanted to share that same feeling with other young women of color. So the Red Lip Collective was born, and it does empower young women of color through professional development, mentoring, and through networking events. So the hope for me within this organization, that officially launches in February, is to connect young women of color who are very early on in their professional careers or just feel kind of stuck to successful mentors who are also women of color who can really give them tips and practical tricks on how to navigate their careers in Corporate America or [as an entrepreneur?].Zach: Now, where can people learn more about you? What's the information for your collective? Like, drop all of your information so we can put it in the show notes.Crystle: Yeah, definitely. So on Instagram and Twitter you can follow my personal page @CrystleSpeaks. That's C-R-Y-S-T-L-E S-P-E-A-K-S. And also on Instagram and Twitter you can follow the Red Lip Collective @TheRedLipCollective.Zach: Okay. Now, look here. We got LEO. We got you can't--I'm serious, I'm so excited about "you cannot become what you can't see." Like, that is fire to me. That might--that's gonna have to be a quote somewhere, but we got Red Lip Collective, we got Pandora. We got all types of amazing news and gems on this particular episode. I'm extremely excited about this. Before we get out of here, any final thoughts or shout-outs?Crystle: Definitely. So I'd like to shout-out everyone who has been a motivator for me in the past, who told me that I could do it even when I felt like I couldn't do it, and then also those who told me to slow down, that I was too ambitious. So those two types of people combined together are exactly what I needed to propel myself forward in my career and also in my personal life. Zach: So y'all, take notes. Notice how Crystle not only shouted out the folks who showed her love, but she also shouted out her haters too. But it was tasteful. It was tactful, right? That was crazy. Yes, so shout-out to Crystle's motivators. Motivation comes from a variety of different places. It's all about your mindset and what you do with the feedback that you're given and how you're gonna convert it into fuel. So that's amazing. Crystle, this has been a wonderful conversation. You've been listening to Living Corporate. Our Twitter is @LivingCorp_Pod. Our Instagram is @LivingCorporate. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv. We're really all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, because Australia has it locked up, and we haven't really been able to get to 'em yet. However, make sure you catch us, you check us out. This has been Zach Nunn. You have been listening to Crystle Johnson. Peace.

On the first installment of Tristan's Tips, our esteemed guest Tristan Layfield answers the question of whether or not cover letters are relevant anymore and provides an effective, actionable method to write a great one. Check back next Tuesday for another tip!Tristan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/Layfield Resume Consulting: https://layfieldresume.com/Layfield Resume social media: IG, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna dive into an effective cover letter method that will better help you sell yourself to your future employer. One of the questions I'm asked quite often is "Are cover letters still a thing?" And my answer to that question is always yes. A cover letter can set you apart from other candidates who don't submit one. It also allows you the space to sell yourself, explain your situation, and even sometimes seal the deal. There are many ways to write a cover letter. Let's focus on one I find to be most effective. Number one, address a person. Hiring managers and recruiters hate to see the generic greeting of "To whom it may concern." Do your Googles and try to find out who the hiring manager is and address them directly. If you can't find the name, consider addressing it to the department or committee. Number two, identify a problem. Let's be real here. Companies could care less about what you want out of this or what you're excited for. They want to know if you can solve issues for them, and the only way to do that is to identify an issue that may be plaguing them specifically or the general industry. So identify the problem that you know that you have experience in or experience solving. Number three, exploit that problem. Now that you've identified the problem, remind them of how irritating their problem is and how great a solution would be. Number four, offer a solution, and if you haven't figured it out by now, the solution is you - your experience and your expertise. Go beyond what you've written in your resume and explain to them why you are the best candidate, not only for the job but to help them solve their problem. And number five, tie it together strong. Your conclusion is a great spot to reiterate your interest and confidence, then close with a call of action such as "I look forward to the opportunity to discuss how we can leverage my abilities as an asset to your organization." A well-written, strategic cover letter can't ever hurt, but just make sure you aren't sending out a generic one for every job you apply to. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn. Thanks for joining me. I'll be talking to you again soon.

We have the honor of speaking with author, social worker, and community activist Feminista Jones about the importance of supporting black women at the workplace and the ways in which people can help lift up and advocate for them. We also talk about her new book, Reclaiming Our Space, and announce a giveaway of some free copies!Connect with Feminista on IG and Twitter!Her new book, Reclaiming Our Space: AmazonPatricia Hill Collins’ catalog: AmazonTRANSCRIPTAde: "An extensive survey of hundreds of books, articles, and white papers concludes that women leave the tech industry because they're, quote, treated unfairly, underpaid, less likely to be fast-tracked than their male colleagues, and unable to advance. A study by the Center for Talent Innovation found that 20% of women in tech feel stalled in their careers and 32% are likely to quit within one year. 48% of black women in tech feel stalled." This excerpt from Rachel Thomas called The Real Reason Women Quit Tech (and How to Address It) speaks to the ever-present challenges women, especially those of color, face at work. The common narrative is that diversity and inclusion drive innovation. If so, why are black women so often on the short end of the stick, and what does it look like to effectively support them? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women at work.Ade: Yeah. So why do you think we're focusing specifically on black women and not talking about women as a whole?Zach: Well, one I think because the reality of intersectionality is real, right? The fact that we exist in multiple spectrums, not just one or the other. I think that when you talk about--when we have conversations about gender, they often can be overly binary in a way that really erases the very real experiences and perspectives of millions of people, particularly when it comes to black women. You know, often times we ignore the fact that, historically, the feminist movements of the early 1900s ignored or aimed to kind of like neutralize and minimize black women's voices. We ignored the fact that black women have endured a history of abuse and negligence by our country. I think that we really often enough just don't talk about and really seek to empower black voices and experiences, particularly black voices and experiences who are women. So that's why I think we're talking about--we're zooming in on black women today.Ade: So you can't see me, but I nodded so hard throughout all of that. I want you to know that if I have whiplash in the morning, I'm billing you directly.Zach: Don't bill me. Don't bill me please.Ade: No, thank you for sharing that. To kind of expound and share some of my own personal experiences, I mean, I've been in situations where I had my bonus docked at work, and I'm asking for concrete reasons as to why I don't have all my money, because I earned this bonus, and the manager is making excuses like, "Oh, well, your computer failed, therefore you didn't get this deliverable in on time," and I'm like, "Okay, so you acknowledge that this was something that this was not within my control and I'm still being punished for it anyway?" And I had no allies. Like, I had plenty of people who were nice to me, plenty of people within that space who would listen to me and bring me coffee and acknowledge that I would be, you know, one of the few people who would show up to work on Sundays to get work done, which I'm never doing again. But nobody felt the need to go to bat for me the same way that they did for other people, and I think in retrospect there were a lot of people who were like, "Oh, she's got this. Oh, she's strong enough to deal with this. Oh, she'll speak up for herself." I mean, and I did, but nobody was listening to me, right? And that's just one of several occasions in which I felt alone. I felt like I was being punished for things that were outside of my control, and even when I spoke up for myself people would treat me as though as I was overreacting or disturbing the peace by just asking to be treated fairly, right? And I found that ultimately I have had to be my own best advocate, and I think in ways that others don't even have to think about, right? Thinking about ways in which I am communicating. For example, I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor.Zach: Yep.Ade: Thank you for backing me up. But I found that there are situations in which I have consciously dialed back, because I recognized that there were people who would say that I am being mean or that if I am not relating to the topic at hand--for example, people are just kind of talking through experiences that I've never experienced. I'm not gonna get up every day and wash my hair. That's not how my hair functions. And so if I'm quiet in that conversation, people will report that I'm being standoffish. And so there are all of these things and all of these micro-aggressions that ultimately lead to me feeling isolated and unsupported in various workplace scenarios and situations. And so ultimately I want a world in which I don't have to feel different. Like, I want to feel as though I can bring my whole self to work, my whole self, whether my twist-out is bomb or not, whether I feel like I need to go on every single coffee run with every single one of my coworkers just so that I feel like I belong. But that's a conversation we can have a little bit later. Can you think of any situations that you've observed in which you felt that the black woman or black women in your spaces weren't being taken seriously or were being treated differently?Zach: So for sure, right? Interestingly enough though in my career, I have not--I haven't really worked with a lot of black women who were not actually much more senior than I was, right? So, you know, my first experience when I think about it was I was in industry. I was in the oil and gas industry, and she's now a mentor of mine. She's easily one of the most learned, most educated people that I know period. Like, she has an MBA, a Ph.D. She teaches. She's a college professor. And it was interesting watching her navigate these spaces, like, despite her education, people still, like, kind of, like, looking past her or, like, looking through the things that she would say and kind of just cutting her off and making a lot of very presumptive statements.Ade: Ooh. Cutting her off? Good lord.Zach: Cutting her off. Cutting her off, yeah, and watching her handle those situations with a lot of poise and grace and a still certain level of, like, firm confidence. Like, "Okay, nope. I got it." And she's--you know, she's about, like, my mom's age, so certainly she's had a litany of experiences that I would imagine have, you know, helped her kind of deal with what it means just to be who she is in the spaces that she exists. But yeah, I think--I think that that's been, like, the most common experience that I've seen, like, black women in the workplace who would be directors, senior managers--again, they were always senior to me--and they would be--they'd just be dismissed. Like, their opinion would be kind of, like, taken with a pound of salt, slight eye rolls and things of that nature, or kind of to your point, even I've seen situations--and this has been my experience as well, but we're not talking about Zach's experiences, we're talking about black women's experiences--where people will--you know, they'll smile and they'll nod, and then they'll go off and they'll do exactly what they want to do anyway.Ade: Oh. Oh, my God. This is--this is just bringing back so many different flashbacks.Zach: [laughs] No, but it's real though. I've seen that, like, where it's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, for sure," or like I said, you know, they'll say things--they'll be very nice, but then, like, they don't really support you, and I think that kind of, like, speaks to a larger phenomena of people who think that you being nice is in some way you being an advocate, right? Like, no. Like, you're just being nice. Like, there's a difference, and I think to your earlier point about, you know, people saying you're overreacting, I think people--it's so funny. Like, when it comes to--in my experience when it comes to people of color, particularly women of color, folks are really able to see the implications of their decisions with folks' careers when it's their career.Ade: Mm-hmm, say that.Zach: But they don't understand--like, they don't understand the reality of your decision when it comes to my money, right? So, like, when you sit back and you say, "Oh, okay. Well, yeah, you know, your computer didn't work, and so we cut your bonus." You understand, like, you're taking away my money? You're taking away my livelihood. We live in a capitalistic society. Like, I need bread to live.Ade: Right.Zach: So when you sit back and you make decisions that are gonna impede my promotion, they're gonna impede my ratings, they're gonna impede my bonus, like, you're actively taking money out of my pocket. So if you're gonna do something like that where you're gonna take money out of my pocket, you need to have a quantitative, valid, ethical and legal reason--Ade: Have an ironclad reason.Zach: An ironclad reason to do so, and it's just crazy that people don't grasp, like, you know, you're talking about my bread. We're gonna have a problem. But guess what though? I bet if somebody came at you like that, you'd be the first one to run to a lawyer, to run to whoever you're gonna run to who's gonna listen to you.Ade: You'd be on the phone with [inaudible].Zach: On the phone [inaudible] lickety-splickety. So, like, why are we playing?Ade: [laughs] Lickety-splickety.Zach: Lickety-splickety.Ade: But yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. I spoke only of my own experiences, but there's, like, a litany of experiences of the women in my circle and the women who are well above me who are just dealing with things that I don't think they would be dealing with if they were white men, right? Just being excluded or people being condescending to you or people either treating you like you're the third rail and they can't speak to you like you're a regular human being, or when they do speak to you it's with this air of condescension like they know better than you what to do when you're the subject matter expert, and it's just--I can't list literally every single one of things, but I do know this. I know that the tide is going to have to turn, not just because that it is so, but because people who have been studying and working and putting in time and effort to elucidate just what it means to be a black woman in America have extended themselves, right? And so I know that the work is being done. I know that I am just a small piece of a much larger universe of women who are like, "Yeah, this is cute and all, but we're not having it. Thank you." And of those, I think you had the opportunity to speak to one very, very amazing writer. You want to introduce her?Zach: Yeah, so absolutely. So I got the opportunity, or rather Living Corporate had the opportunity, to speak with Feminista Jones. For those who may not know her, she's an activist, she's a black feminist. She's a wonderful person, great writer, and she actually has written a book called Reclaiming Our Space, and we'll get into that in the interview. The next voice you're gonna hear is in the interview that we had with Feminista Jones, and we'll talk to y'all soon.Ade and Zach: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Feminista Jones on the show. Feminista, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Feminista: I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?Zach: I'm doing great. Now, let me--let me ask you this. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself?Feminista: Sure. For those who don't know me, I am a writer. I am a social worker. I am an activist. I am a speaker, I am a mother, and I am a really amazing friend.Zach: Let's go, yes.Feminista: I do a lot around really advocating for girls and women, advocating for racial justice. I do a lot of anti-poverty work. That's, like, my main primary focus is anti-poverty work. And I'm located in Philadelphia. I'm a native New Yorker, but I moved to Philadelphia a couple years ago because I really wanted to do work to fight poverty, and this city has such a high poverty rate that I wanted to come here and see what work I could help, you know, get done while I'm out here.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women in the workplace.Feminista: Mm-hmm. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I am familiar with your content and your work through social media. We're excited to have you here because of your thought leadership in this arena. So what do you think are some practical ways black women can be better advocated for and supported in their 9-to-5 jobs?Feminista: This is a really great question. I'm someone who is in a senior management position in the social work field, in the community activism fields, and a lot of people have misconceptions about, you know, community work and social work and think that it's just about low-paying work all the time. And some of it is, but there is a lot of opportunities to move up, and when you're in a senior-level position you've got to use multiple skill sets. And I think, just for black women, you know, people make a lot of assumptions that we can do so much all the time, and they rely on us to do that. So I think a lot of times people take for granted the contributions that we make or they take advantage of them, and they may expect that, you know, black women will just handle it, you know? Whatever the fires that need to be put out, black women come with an extinguisher. You know, we're the problem solvers, and a lot of times, you know, we have no choice. We have to because we're looked at, you know, one as being black, two as being women. We're looked at it being doubly, you know, incompetent, and I feel like we've worked so hard to prove otherwise. And you're working alongside men or alongside white people or reporting to men or reporting to white people. You have to, like, be mindful of how you're gonna be perceived, and I think one of the biggest challenges facing black women in the workplace is this idea that people make assumptions about our attitude and our personality and just based on our affect, or, you know, they say we have attitudes or we have issues with communication. And that's one of the things that I struggle with, because I feel like men are celebrated for being, you know, direct and blunt and forward and aggressive. I feel like white people are celebrated for, like, not taking no for an answer and, you know, really kind of just putting it out there and taking risks, but it's like when black women do it, you know, people kind of look at us like, you know, we just tried to suggest something really radical. They kind of look at us like, "How dare you?" almost, and it sucks because we are smart and we are capable, we are talented, and sometimes it's just we're not appreciated simply because we're black women.Zach: That's just--that's so true, right? So, like, as a black man in the workplace--so I'm a consultant, and I don't often really work with black women on projects. I don't really work with other black people often, but when I do I notice that there's this--there's this pattern where if a black woman speaks up--I've noticed where if they speak up and they're being assertive, it is taken completely different than when a white woman speaks up as being assertive and certainly when a man, especially a white man, speaks up and is being assertive. Now, speaking for myself as a black man, there's also, like, a weird balance, right, because we--like, black men do participate in patriarchy of course, and we also--we also sit higher on the privilege pyramid than black women, and at the same time there's a--there's a certain level of balance in terms of not being too assertive but but not being assertive enough at the same time. It's like you truly can't win for losing, so I definitely--I relate to that, and I have--and I've seen it more than a few times with black women, especially if they're, you know, a bit more seasoned in their careers. Let's say if they're, like, over 35 and they really know what they're talking about, they're often seen as a--they're often seen as a threat as opposed--Feminista: Absolutely, absolutely. And I just wanted to touch really quickly what you were saying about, you know, black men in the workplace. Like, I've had situations where I've been, you know, on the same level as a black man, and, like, he's made mistakes, and I'm like, "I'm not trying to have this brother go down," you know what I mean? Because he messed up, or I'm not gonna make him look bad in front of these white people that hired--you know, that are over all of us, but at the same time I'm looking like, "Bruh," like, "I need you to get it together."Zach: And support me.Feminista: "You can't rely on me to fix all your things, you know?" Like, you know that I have a certain skill set. You know that I'm not gonna let you fail 'cause you're my brother, but at the same time don't take that for granted.Zach: That's so true.Feminista: And then when you do have the space to advocate for me as, like, a woman, I need you to do that, and I think, you know, one of my colleagues, I had a great conversation with him, and he said, you know, "I can get the race stuff with the snap of a finger," he said, "but every time you point out something about gender," he said, "I think about it, like, what if this was being said about a white person?" And he's like, "And I feel so stupid that I don't get it," you know? And so it's--like, there's work to be done, and he's acknowledging that, like, some of his gender stuff is still real, and it's almost like I have to compare it to race to help him to see it more, and he hates it. Like, he feels so bad, and he, like, resents it, but, you know, definitely he's getting better, and I respect him for at least doing the work. But there are, like, those boys' club kind of environments that while I know a lot of brothers say that, you know, they have their own experiences, they're still invited into those clubs before we are.Zach: That's true. Absolutely, absolutely. So I've been married for about 5 years, 5 1/2 years, and being married has really helped open my eyes to male privilege. And again, like, it's a--I think black men, like, we can get really sensitive about kind of broaching that topic 'cause it's like, "Well, there's still racism." It's like, "No." Absolutely, like, white supremacy still exists, and it subjugates all non-white people. At the same time, there's still a nuance, an element of privilege that we participate in because we are men, and it's important to realize that. Also to your point around women helping--you said you've helped your colleagues in the past 'cause they're a brother, and shout-out to the countless black women in my career who have pulled me aside and helped me and taken the time to just--felt the need to just educate me or mentor me. Really that's really the inspiration behind Living Corporate, because I didn't have a lot of those people in my family coming up giving me, you know, professional wisdom and insights, but it would often be black women pulling me aside and being like, "Hey, look now. [I know that you did this?]."Feminista: [laughs] Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, if my colleague listens to this he'll laugh, because just the other day we were at the--we were at a conference, and we went to the bar, and I sat him down and we were drinking, and I turned to him and I said, "Look, I'ma need to get your ass together," you know what I mean? Like, I really--he said, you know--and he got quiet. He's like, "I know it's coming from love. I know it's coming from a good place," but it's like--it is, because it's like, "Brother, I don't want to see you fail, but, you know, some of the things you're doing is like--I need you to do better," and I said, "I'm gonna help you because I have the resources and I have, you know, the ability to do that, because I want to see you succeed," and I think sometimes, you know, I think within our spaces, particularly as black women, it's like we are so few when we're in, you know, these upper spaces, it's like we look to each other to build community, and it's like that's all we got, you know? That's really all we got, and so it's hard when there's tension there, 'cause it's like, "We shouldn't have tension between us." We can disagree on things, but honestly we all we got.Zach: We've got to work together.Feminista: That's the approach I'd take, yeah.Zach: Absolutely, and you know--I don't want to get on too much of a tangent, but your other point around there is, like, this desire and, like--'cause I cape for black women every day. Like, I have to. My mom is black. My wife is black. Like, I have black sisters. I love--I love black women, right? And what I realized is a lot of times I do believe that there has--there is a pattern of black men, like, using up black women, like as means of support and encouragement and all these different things and really taking them for granted. And I've seen it--I have seen it in the professional workplace. Of course I've seen it in the workplace. We see it in relationships. We see it--we see it in a variety of spaces, and I do believe to your other--to your point around black men need to play a more assertive part for advocating for, speaking up, and supporting black women as well. Okay, so let me ask you this. I do feel as if language is becoming more inclusive but at the same time not as explicit when it comes to centering blackness, specifically black women. So as an example, we hear things like "person of color" or "women of color," but often in my opinion our race is the uniqueness of black identity and black feminine identity. So my question is one, am I tripping, and if two--if not, what are ways to affirm and assert intersectional identity, do you think?Feminista: Mm-hmm. Well, you're not tripping, and I think, you know, anti-blackness is, you know, a quite valuable currency, even among black people. We have all internalized the idea that black is bad, and it's going to take generations, centuries of work, to collectively divest of that idea that blackness is tarnishing, blackness is a blemish. And so there are people who will say women of color, people of color, rather than just saying black, because people have been afraid to say black. And, you know, of course for some people, you know, black means a black American, but for me, you know, when I say black I mean, you know, inclusive of everyone in the diaspora, whether you are from the continent, whether you're from South America, North America, Asia, wherever, Europe. For me that's just a unifier. For others it means different things, you know? So a lot of times people shy away from that, and then when they say people of color or they say women of color, in many ways it does dilute the focus, and what happens is this. So much of what happens to women, like, say, in a negative way, happens to black women, and so people want to use our statistics to make their points. And so they'll say "women of color," right, but of those 10 women of color, like, 7 of 'em are black, and so they can say, you know, "70% of women of color experience this," and it's like, "Yes, seven black women experience that." [laughs] We see that in the feminist movement. We see that in the queer movement. We see that wherever black people exist. Folks want to use our statistics to push their agenda, and I have a problem with that. I have a very serious problem with that, and I agree with you. Like, we need to name blackness for what it is, or if you want to say African-American or Afro-Latino, whatever you want to say. They need to name it for what it is, because it's real. Like, if you look at some place like Brazil, it's--like, you can't say there's 55 million, you know, women of color in Brazil. No, there's 55 million black women in Brazil, you know? And that's more black--there's more black women there than there are black people in the United States. So no, we have to name these things, and it's powerful. It's powerful when you name blackness for what it is, for its achievement and success but also for its struggle, because it puts the focus and the spotlight on us. So, like, when you're talking about black women and black feminine identity, particularly, like, in the workspace and beyond, we have to focus specifically on that, because an Asian woman is not facing the same hair issues. She may have similar name issues on her resume, right? But she's not--she's not facing the hair issues, right? An Indian woman may be seen as, you know, she's super smart with tech, because that's an assumption that is made, you know? It's very different for us, you know? Either a biracial woman, you know, may not have the same issues with color if her skin tone is lighter. You know, there's a--there's a lot of things that are going on there that we need to name explicitly.Zach: And see, I think--and my anxiety about even bringing that question up is that people will hear that and say, "Oh, okay. Well, now you're excluding other people," when not at all. Really what we're trying to do is push that we're explicit with identity language across the board, right? So you just gave three examples, right, of why it's important to be specific when it comes to speaking to identity and intersectionality. I believe that we see it at a larger point, and we talked about this in season one, around the pay gap, and we talked about--we talked about that from the perspective of, you know, when you conflate gender across the board and you say, "Well, women believe this, and men are like--" Well, no. Like, that's--I mean, just being a very, like, initial cut, black men and white men do not have the same experiences. Black women and white women do not have the same experiences. Asian women and white women don't have the same experiences. So it's really empowering across if we can have the courage to just speak explicitly to who we're talking about.Feminista: Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, the experiences are different. People will say, "Oh, women make 77 cents on the dollar," but that's not true for a black woman. A black woman is more like 56 cents, 54 cents or something like that.Zach: It is, yeah.Feminista: Like, it's different. Again, but that's, like, padding the numbers, and things like that to bring down the average, 'cause I believe, like--I think I read something like Asian women are on par with white men, and white women are, like, 80% or something like that. Like, they're--Zach: So it's crazy. Like, the numbers absolutely agree [inaudible]. Like, you know, I've seen numbers that are, you know--so, like, white men are 100%, and then white women might be at, like, 77 cents. Black women are at 64 cents, and black men are at, like, 67 cents or 68 cents. But, like, we never talk about--we never talk--not we never talk about, that's not fair, because there's plenty of people driving those discussions, but when you talk about, like, the major narrative talking points in the media, we don't ever talk about the fact that, like, white women make more than black men. Like, that's--I've never heard that, right?Feminista: Oh, I've heard that discussion quite a bit. I mean, it just--we may just be in different circles.Zach: I defer.Feminista: You know, I've heard quite a bit, and it is important, you know, to discuss, because, I mean, it's the truth, right? So it's like--you know, but black women just kind of sit back and be like, "Y'all have at it," because you're either gonna bicker over the race thing or you're gonna bicker over the gender thing.Zach: It's never both, right?Feminista: And we're both. We're the ones that are saying it's both, you know? [laughs] And nobody wants to listen to us on either side, so you all hash it out.Zach: You're absolutely right. No, you're absolutely right, and so--and no, I defer. I would trust that if you've heard it then it's--then those conversations are happening in the right places. So I believe that leads us well into your book, Reclaiming Our Space. Can you talk a bit about the book and how you arrived at that title?Feminista: The title was really interesting. It took us a while to get there. I didn't know what I wanted to call it. What I did know was, you know, shout-out to my editor, Rakia Clark at Beacon Press. She's amazing. She's fantastic. She helped me along the way. On--okay, so if we talk about the book, I--she came to me, right? I guess she was among a bunch of folks who thought I had already written something like this, because my first two books were self-published and did really well, and so I was never--like, I wasn't looking for a publishing agent or a publisher or anything like that. I wasn't looking for a literary agent. I was like, "I can just do it myself," you know? And cut out the middleperson, but when she came to me and approached me it was like, you know, "Have you written anything like this?" And I was like, "No." She was like, "Well, do you want to?" Like, "We're interested in this," and I was like, "What? Sure, okay," and the idea was really to write about not just modern black feminism but specifically kind of speak to my experiences and those of my peers of existing as black feminists in these digital spaces. So ultimately the book is about how black feminists and black women, even those that don't openly identify as feminists, have been able to build community by using digital platforms and how social media has been a--you know, basically a change agent in how we do activism or how we connect across the world and how it's changed our ability to get our messaging out and to change the face of feminism, and we've been able to educate people and influence popular culture and shape laws and everything, you know? I talk about our political influence. I talk about our, you know, influence on television and, you know, this whole live tweeting thing came from us. And, you know, we're talking about black women voting. We're talking about critiquing white feminism. We're talking about--even things down to, like, quote tweeting and threading tweets and things like that. Like, all these things really became popular because of us. So I do a deep dive into that, but I start off with basics of, you know, what is black feminism? I wanted to write a primer for black feminism that was accessible to people of today. We know that people have shorter attention spans. They really want the hot takes. They want the summaries and things like that. They're not going to sit down with a thick Patricia Hill Collins book, although they should. They're not going back and reading, you know, everything from bell hooks, everything from Toni Morrison. They may not even know who Florence Kennedy is, right? But they need to, and so I was like, "Well, how do I tell our story? 'Cause I need to show how we got here," and so I do give a very straightforward quick primer on black feminism, and I go back, like, 125 years or so, and then I bring us to the present, and I'm like, "Well, here are your modern black feminists of today," and so I'm talking about, like, my sister Jamilah Lemieux. I'm talking about Imani Gandy. I'm talking about Zerlina Maxwell. I'm talking about, you know, these really--CaShawn Thompson, who created Black Girl Magic. You know, I'm talking about these women who, right now, in present day, are making history. I'm talking about Trudy, you know? And just a bunch of others. They're currently making history. Not just black history, not just women's history, but they are making history in the ways in which they are transforming these social media platforms. We are creating campaigns. We are, you know, changing literally the world and culture, and I'm writing all about it, 'cause I felt that it needed to be documented. We needed to have something that encapsulated this entire moment right now.Zach: So for our audience, I think many have heard of the term feminism, but the modifier black is still new for a lot of people. So would you mind explaining the difference between what we often think of as feminism and black feminism?Feminista: That's a great question. I get it a lot, and I think the difference is just we are directing people to our identity as black women, which we believe is important in every discussion about our womanhood, and I think, as I said earlier about kind of looking at the both sides of things, the gender and the race, there's a really great collection of works that really references this idea that, you know, all of the men are black and all of the women are white. When we think about, within our black community, you know, blackness really is depicted through a black man, and those are our leaders, and those are the people we care more about when they're killed by police and all these other things, but when it's for a woman, when we think "woman" it's white women, right? But some of us are--we exist in the middle, and to say that we are feminists is--you know, it's a collective idea. All people, women--all women of all races can be feminists, but when we say that we are black feminists, we are saying yes, we believe in women's rights, yes, we support gender, you know, equality, and yes, we support equity, but don't forget that we're black and that we have different issues on top of all of these other issues that women deal with, right? So we have all the feminist issues AND those that come with being not just black but black women within the black community.Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that because, you know, I have a colleague who is a very senior leader, and she's a white woman, and she said, "Yeah, Zach. I mean, I'm a woman, but I'm white, right? Like, I don't have it that bad," and so--and she kind of chuckled about it, and she was like, "But let's be honest, I don't." And I said, "Okay." You know, with that being said--Feminista: Well, she's right.Zach: She is right. I said, "Yep." [laughs] Yeah, and I laughed. I was--you know, kind of as an aside, I laughed because I was so shocked because she's so senior and she was being--she was speaking so frankly that I said--I laughed and I said, "Well, you know, you're right. You're right," and so it leads me to this question. What are some practical ways you believe white women can support black women generally and at work? And what have you seen be helpful in your journey?Feminista: If I say get out the way, is that too harsh? [laughs] Nah.Zach: It's your energy.Feminista: You know, I mean, ultimately--the bottom line is this. There is no single person I believe that is willing to totally divest of whatever privilege they have if it means staying alive and it means that their children are fed, and I don't care who you are. You will cling to some privilege, whatever privilege you have, to make sure that you can stay alive and that your children are fed. With that said, there are white women who I have really come to know and love and respect, who value my opinions, my thoughts, my work, and amplify it without adding qualifiers to it. They'll share my work. They'll share information about my articles and my books, and they'll direct people to events that I'm having or things like that. They'll use their platforms to really kind of boost, you know, the work that I and other people are doing, which is super important. In the quiet spaces that I don't even have access to they'll stand up for me and folks like me. They'll call out people that are close to them, you know? Even at the risk of losing those connections. Those are women that I find to be truly amazing when you're talking about in the corporate space. I'm coming from, you know, the social work/non-profit field, and we know that that field is ripe with white saviors. Many liberal white women, and men, you know, kind of get into this work 'cause they want to "do good" and they want to "help the needy," and sometimes that can really be actually racist, 'cause the assumptions they make about, you know, people in need or poor people or black people or things like that under the guise of wanting to help can be rather violent. So I've had my share of run-ins with white women in that space, 'cause I'm like, "You'll never tell me that you know what's better for a black child than I do." [laughs] I don't care who you are. We have the same education and experience. But what you can do in that space is really just listen, and I think that, you know, social media definitely has made it a lot easier to listen and to access the voices and experiences of marginalized folks, whereas a lot of white women never really had exposure, you know, in such even and equal platforms. I can tweet just as much as you can, so we have an even playing field right there, and you can listen and you can read and you can learn from me as I'm telling you my experience that I just had today. You don't have to pick up a book later on in the year of anecdotes. You can see right now that I am telling you that 20 minutes ago my white boss did this, you know? And I think that that's really helped white women come to understand more about the daily experiences of women of color and black women specifically. So a lot of women are actually--you know, especially millennials. The younger folks are really kind of just, like, "Eff it. I'm just gonna say what I need to say."Zach: Yeah, we with the smoke. Yeah. [laughs]Feminista: "I'm gonna stand up for this--I'm gonna stand up for this black woman right here, 'cause this ain't right," you know? And I love the energy. I mean, you know, for an older person like myself, I really love the energy that I'm seeing. So maybe we'll see some major changes coming.Zach: Maybe so. That's my prayer for sure. Before we get out of here, let me ask you this. What was the process like for you writing this book? I know you talked about that you were self-published before. This was a different journey. You know, did you learn anything about yourself from this journey?Feminista: Oh, my gosh. Yes. This is totally different. My first book I wrote over the course of 2 years. The second one I actually pulled some pieces that I had written before and wrote some new ones, but it only took me a few months. This one I was on a deadline. I had, like, "You need this by this time and this by this time, and you need to get this in, and you need to review this, and we need this back by this day," and I was like, "What is happening?" I've been the kind of person who, if you give me a deadline it starts to feel like work, and sometimes when it starts to feel like work it doesn't come as--you know, it doesn't flow as well. So I struggled a little bit with that. I had 6 months to write it, and the first 2 months I just was like, "What?" I was like, "What is going on?" I had just had, like, a really bad breakup. I was depressed. I was like, "I don't want to do anything with anyone ever, and I don't want to talk anyone, and I don't want to do--" I couldn't write a word, and then my editor gently nudged me and reminded me of that first check that I got, and I was like, "I should probably write this book." The other thing, you know, I'm also, you know, a mental health consumer and advocate, and I realized that part of my writing struggle was the medication that I was--that I had been taking. It evens my mood so much that I'm--like, I can't--I'm not creative. I don't think of things. I couldn't--I literally couldn't write, so for about a month I stopped taking my medication, and I'll tell people, I wrote about 80% of the book in a month, that month, and it was, like, kind of--it was such a negotiation for me because I knew that without the medication I would be a bit manic, I would be a bit frenzied, you know? I would have these bouts with, you know, depression or whatever, but I knew I could get it done. And so there were days where, you know, I would write until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and just write, like, brilliant stuff, like, that I don't half-remember now, so. But I knew it was a risk, you know, and I am being very transparent about it because, you know, I just think it's important to do that, but it was a risk, but I was able to get it done. And so what I learned--it helped me really learn how much of my, you know, mental health experiences have been tied into my ability to write, and it's been a fascinating, fascinating discovery. So after the book was done, you know, I went back on my medication, and I've been in therapy and what have you, but as I was doing rewrites and things like that and reviewing it, I was reading it, like, for the first time. I was just like, "I wrote this?" I just couldn't remember writing so much of it, and then I was like, "I actually wrote this," and I was like, "This is pretty damn good." [laughs] But that's--you know, so that is a very, very unique writing process, and it's funny 'cause this is the first time I'm talking about it. A very unique writing process that I won't recommend to anybody else ever, but you know what? The easiest thing I'm gonna have to say is this - I enjoy writing about my friends and myself, 'cause that's really what I was doing, and if you can imagine--let's imagine we go back to the Harlem Renaissance, right? And we look at all those people that we group together as, like, these collectives from the Harlem Renaissance. Imagine if one of them had been documenting what they were doing at the time. It's kind of like the crisis, like, I mean, you know, these other papers and stuff that they had, like, imagine if somebody actually wrote a book in real-time kind of documenting, you know, what was happening and that we were able to read it in their words. That's what I wanted to do, and so I get to write about all these women that I love and respect and love reading their writing, love having drinks with them, love--you know, and I'm privileged. I'm privileged, and it was an honor for me to be able to document their contribution to black feminist work.Zach: That's amazing, and--I'm certainly taken aback, and I'm excited and honored with the fact that you're able to--you're transparent enough to share your journey in putting this work together. The book is called Reclaiming Our Space. Before we let you go, do you have any parting thoughts?Feminista: I'm just really excited that the book is coming out and that people can read it, and I wrote it to make it accessible to teenaged girls all the way up to your mee-maw, your big momma. I really hope that it gets into the hands of people that need it, and then maybe it could start to shift this discourse a bit and get black women a little bit more respect for what we're doing. [laughs]Zach: Amen.Feminista: Yeah, that's it. So thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. This was great.Zach: No, this is great. So Feminista, something you should know is on our website we have something called Favorite Things, and that's where we highlight books and even sometimes food and just other items, things that we really care for, and your book, Reclaiming Our Space, will be #1 on our Favorite Things list. So we're gonna make sure that we push and encourage people to check it out, to buy it and to read it. So thank you so much, and we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope we can have you back.Feminista: Oh, I would love to come back. Thank you.Zach: All right, now. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Thank you so much, Zach. That was amazing. Enjoyed that conversation. I think it helped me really think through what it means to lift up the black women in your circle, not just your personal circle, 'cause it's really easy to uplift your friends, but also thinking through how you're uplifting the black women at work, in your corporate spaces, wherever you might hold sway or have some sort of influence that you might be able to use better help others. What part of the conversation did you really enjoy?Zach: So we had a conversation there where we talked about the fact that really, for me, black women have always been, like, the core of my support in my career, right? So there was always some type of either kind of like motherly or kind of big aunt or big sister type figure around me. Like, they would chastise me, but it would always be out of love, right? It would always be in the spirit of "I want you to do better" or "I know you can do better so I'm holding you accountable," and it was crazy because these women who would--again, who would help me, they were not getting the support that they needed, and yet they still found it in themselves to give me the support that they knew I needed, and, you know, I think there's gonna have to be a day eventually--I mean, the day is now frankly, right--that black women are poured into, right? They can't continue just to be the exporter of support and wisdom and empathy and effort, right? Like, they're going--like, they need to be imported into. Like, they need to be given support. They need to be empathized with. They need to be heard. They need to be--and their words should be--their words should be adhered to, right? Like, they need--the things that they are giving they need to also receive.Ade: Aye, reciprocity.Zach: Reciprocity, thank you. No, straight up. That's the word really, reciprocity. Like, they need that, because I think so many times--like, it's so interesting. Also I've seen women at work, black women at work, who will eventually just get kind of fed up with, like, the BS and kind of call people on it. Like, in a professional way, but it may be, like, a more assertive way, and then the narrative is "Oh, she has an attitude problem," or she doesn't know how to handle things. Like, no, she doesn't have an attitude problem. She's tired of y'all treating her like this. She's tired of--she's tired of being the work mule for everybody, from a work perspective, from an emotional perspective. She's tired of it. Like, that's what it is.Ade: And I just want to say how important that is, because very often you'll hear about the trip of the angry black woman. I mean, it follows us everywhere, especially to Corporate America, and everybody wants to talk about the angry black woman, but nobody ever wants to talk about what y'all did to make her angry.Zach: That's so true, wow.Ade: Okay, so one, anger is a valid emotion.Zach: Right? [laughs]Ade: I just--I don't feel like running away from the trope. To be frank, so much occurs that we get to be upset about. Like, everybody gets to be upset about whatever it is upsets them, because that's their right, so I don't understand why it is up to black women--I mean, no, I do understand. I'm just saying that I'm done with that.Zach: Facts. [laughs]Ade: Women very often will be graded on likability, and black women will be graded on likability and your ability to swallow a whole bunch of nonsense and just grin and bear it, right? But if you decide that you are A. not going to grin and bear it and 2. not only are you not going to grin and bear it, you're going to alert the folks who feel as though it's your duty to grin and bear it that you see through the BS and you will not be having any portion of it. Suddenly you're the bad guy, and so ultimately I think it's important that we take away from this - if you feel as though the black women in Corporate America or in your spaces or at your jobs are angry, perhaps they have a right to be, right? There is this phenomenon I've noticed. I mean, I haven't conducted a federally-funded study of this, so there's that. Most of this is from my own personal experiences.Zach: Right, right.Ade: But I've noticed that, you know, these companies will bring in somebody who meets their diversity quota. So in this situation we're talking about bringing a black woman in to your notoriously anti-black misogynistic spaces, and you just leave her to sink or swim, right? And so this woman is cataloging all the ways in which you could be doing better as an organization and saying, "Hey, I have noticed that this is trash, and these are the ways in which you could do better," and instead of, you know, actually paying attention and doing better like the [inaudible] claim that you are, you ignore her. You shut her down. You make her feel as though she is imagining things or pulling things out of thin air or that she is in fact the problem, and then when she finally gets fed up and goes, "You know what? Y'all got it. I'm good," suddenly she is the insane one in the scenario, or suddenly she's the one that's making a big deal out of nothing, or she's playing the victim, and this mass gaslighting of black women in Corporate America 1. is trash, 2. honestly, I feel as though we can't be the only ones who see it, right?Zach: No. We're definitely--no, definitely not. Definitely not.Ade: And even further, here are some concrete ways in which I believe everyone could reach a hand out to the women in your circle. One, it is not enough for you to simply have a diversity and inclusion program. I mean, that's cool and all, but a lot of your diversity and inclusion programs are--flimsy is the word I want to use. It's the one G-rated word that I have off the top of my head to describe your diversity and inclusion programs. They're flimsy, and they do not actually take into account the needs and experiences of the populations that you want to actually address. So for one, every person that you hire, period, should feel like they're able to bring their whole selves to work. And I don't say--I'm not saying that they should show up to work in an unprofessional manner or that they should show up to work and bring drama or chaos to work. That's clearly not what I'm saying, and I'm hoping that you people hear me when I say that. What I am saying is that I should not feel as though I have to decipher what it is that you want from me as an employee because you are uncomfortable just speaking to me like I am a regular human being. I should not feel as though I don't know what the company culture is, because it is your responsibility as the company who creates the culture to communicate that clearly and honestly and fairly. Give me a fair shot to show that not only do I belong here, I can thrive here. And more importantly, do not put the onus on your individual employees to change the entire company structure. It is unfair. It is irrational to say that, "Well, they didn't say that they wanted an employee resource group," or "They didn't say that they needed sponsorship programs that would, you know, put the black women on partnership track," or "They didn't say that they needed XYZ in order to be more successful." It is--it is your responsibility as the managers, as the directors, as the partners, to reach out, because you are the ones with power in your hands to do something about the situation and the environment that your employees are in. And if you are a black woman who finds herself at work and incapable of really navigating your career to the best of your abilities, for one I am sorry. It's trash. It is a terrible situation to be in, to feel as though you have walked a thousand miles, you've crossed deserts, you have swam oceans. You have done everything above and beyond where you felt that you needed to be, where everybody else needed to be, and you walk into the room and people are still questioning your right and your ability to be in there and succeed. That's trash. Secondly, find allies. Find a safe space. Find somebody who is able to look outside of themselves and see you and really want to help you, and I am sorry that, again, it seems to be your responsibility to do so, but we gonna be alright. And thirdly, and I can't stress this enough, find a therapist, and here's why I say find a therapist. You will have days at work, some days, that make you feel as though it is all in your head and you really have no idea what's going on, but when you write things down and you're able to really talk through what happened and why you feel the way that you do at work it really helps. It helps you see yourself, see the truth of the situation, and also create, like, a plan of attack as to how you're going to address the nonsense that you are--that you are facing. I wish all of you love and light. I think we said all of that--not to be performative, but in the show notes we'll have a list of suggested readings for anyone who is interested in really learning about the crux of the conversation today, which was black feminism. We'll have some books, including Feminista Jones's book called Reclaiming Our Space, to help those who are interested in really helping black women at work. Zach, do you have any thoughts?Zach: I mean, nah. You said everything right there. I don't want to really encroach on your space. You did a phenomenal job. Let's continue on with our Favorite Things. You ready?Ade: All right, guys. Favorite Things. So this week, my Favorite Thing, it's called The Self-Taught Programmer by Cory Althoff. Actually, let me read the whole title. The Self-Taught Programmer: The Definitive Guide to Programming Professionally, and I've been reading this book, I mean, for the last couple of days between studying, and it feels good. I mean, it's giving some super actionable advice. It's not, like, a code-heavy or an algorithm-heavy book. Instead it talks about many of the habits that you need to build to be--like, to be really successful and have a sustainable trajectory, and it's been amazing. What about you?Zach: Yeah, so my Favorite Thing right now is obviously Feminista Jones's new book Reclaiming Our Space. It was a great, powerful, approachable read when you talk about around all items of black feminism. I love Feminista Jones's work, and what's refreshing about this book is that it captures the same unapologetic energy that she has, like, that's really part of her brand, and it just captures it well in this book. I think a lot of times you can end up kind of reading someone's book and it's like, "Man, this does not really capture your voice at all." It just doesn't really, like, align with things that I've read or things that I've--other things that I've seen come from you." This is not that, and it's also really convicting, right? Like, it--again, I think--I know rather that black women are often---their voices and experiences are often minimized, even when it comes to inclusion and diversity discussions or equity discussions, often times with black men being the predominant character in the--in the narratives that we drive, right? So, like, even when you talk--like, a prominent example would be police brutality, and they always say, you know, "Black men are killed at XYZ rate that's disproportionate," and that's true, black men are killed at ridiculously disproportionate rates compared to their white counterparts, but do you know who's killed at even higher rates disproportionate to their white counterparts? Black women, right? But, like, we don't--but when you talk about, like, the common talking headline, we don't say that. We don't say--we don't even just say "black people," we say "black men," right? Like, there's a desire to center them, to center us, in a space that--it's not even accurate, right? It's not even the whole truth, and I think that, you know, it's important for black men to recognize--and we talked about this during the interview as well, but to recognize that yes, we are--we are on the receiving end of oppression and white supremacy. We also benefit from a patriarchal society, and there are ways that we benefit from patriarchy that black women do not, and it is important for us to leverage that little bit of privilege that we have to help black women, 'cause they don't have--they don't have it. And that reminds me, we actually have a couple copies of her book, and we'll be giving them away. Yeah. So if you want to be entered in the drawing to win a copy of Feminista Jones's book Reclaiming Our Space, @ us a screenshot of a 5-star review on iTunes and caption Living Corporate, okay? So go on Instagram, take a picture, screenshot your 5-star review on iTunes, and then tag us in it, and we'll make sure to put you in the drawing so you can get the book.Ade: Dope. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. That's it for us today. This has been Ade.Zach: This has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with Arent Fox associate Eva Pulliam. She discusses her career journey up to this point and shares valuable advice pertaining to privacy and security concerns. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Learn more about CBE Week here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now look, if you haven't heard by now, Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker Series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we highlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today, we have Eva Pulliam. As an associate at Arent Fox, Eva works frequently with issues involving cross-border data transfers and international data privacy law compliance. Additionally, she has experience with helping clients comply with U.S. federal and state regulations that impact data collection, storage use, and disclosures as they relate to children, financial institutions, and others. She also continues to review emerging laws in the privacy area as they impact clients' data collection, maintenance, and breach procedures. Eva has been recognized as a next-generation leader in The Recorder's Women Leaders in Tech Law from a pool of over 200 nominees for extensive work in the tech industry. Eva regularly presents on advertising, intellectual property, and privacy. Her recent presentations have spanned topics such as the European General Data Protection Regulation, online gambling, and social media influencers. Eva, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Eva: I'm well, thank you so much for having me.Zach: Thank you for joining us. Now, look, for those who don't know you--I know I read a little bit about your bio, but would you mind telling us a little bit more about yourself and a bit about your professional journey?Eva: So I grew up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on the East Coast. I started undergrad at Howard University, and I've always had a love for the real HU.Zach: Shout-out to Howard.Eva: Yes, shout-out to Howard. I finished at Old Dominion and then went onto law school at George Washington University. I had a great experience. I just have a love for D.C. and spent most of my career and adult life in the D.C. area, but once I became [about a mid-year?] associate, one of my mentors shifted from our D.C. office to our San Francisco office, and I was offered the opportunity to come along, and I took the opportunity as I never want to make a decision out of fear. That's one of my guiding principles. So I said, "You know what? I'm gonna not be scared to California, go cross-country away from family, and take the bar all over again," and here I am in California having a great experience. I've been able to work internally at technology companies and just really get to get a whole new grasp on tech from a hands-on perspective. So that's been--that's been my journey thus far, and it's ongoing.Zach: That sounds incredible, and, you know, I have a sister-in-law who moved--she went from Texas and then went to Spelman for undergrad, then went to University of Michigan for the rest of her undergrad. Now she's in San Francisco. So it's interesting to watch her and her path, and so I would imagine, you know, your journey was similar in that it's just completely different worlds, you know? Like, you jump from one coast to the other.Eva: It has been an extreme culture shift, which is part of what gave me the passion for CBE when I met Angela Johnson, the founder of CBE, and she spoke about it. The lack of unity or a united black professional community in the San Francisco area was a bit striking and unexpected. I had been slightly warned, but it was a different thing to see it. I found some really amazing friends and people in the community, and I think that CBE is gonna do a lot to help bring us all together and help to grow the community. It gives you the vibe of CBC Week, the Congressional Black Caucus Week, that I grew up with in D.C. So it's kind of bringing CBC to the West Coast, and I'm really, really excited about being a part of it.Zach: Well, it's incredible, right? 'Cause it's interesting for me, and I think black folks, we're not a monolithic culture, right? So me coming from, like, a Southern perspective, when I see kind of, like, what's happening in San Francisco on the coast, and I see all these black people with all these huge names tied to 'em, I kind of just assume there's an interconnected network or something there, but, like, not as much, right? And so that's why these types of events and these organizations, such as the Coalition of Black Excellence and CBE Week, are so critical and so important. Well, let's do this then. Let's talk a little bit about privacy, because I believe that's what you're--I believe that's what you're gonna be speaking on during CBE Week. So when I think about privacy, I think about making sure, like, no one has access to my social media, people can't log in to my email, but I know that it's deeper than that. I know that it's broader than that. So, like, could you talk a little bit about privacy and why it matters? Especially for black and brown folks.Eva: So I think that your definition of privacy is right on. The privacy law is concerning all things that make you you. And U.S. laws differ from European laws. European laws go a little deeper to include pretty much anything that would make you you. U.S. laws can be a little more limited in what's protected. In either case, the goal that I balance on a day-to-day is helping my clients to collect information and use it in a responsible way, so that when you provide information you know how it's being used, where it's going, and you're comfortable with that information. I think that the way that the individual consumer, or user, of various technologies and those providing their information online and offline, on paper, I think it's important that users empower themselves and actually read the policies and documents that are provided to them and understand what they're giving away. I would say that when I'm signing on for an app, for instance, if they ask to use my location, don't just click "Allow" right away. Know that when you click "Allow" you are agreeing to something, and I don't click "Allow" for location or use of my video or use of my contacts or my camera unless that's something that I actually need the app for and I understand how my data is being used. So I hope that users will walk away a bit more empowered. In the black and brown community, I think that it's something to always remember, that your data's being used, profiles are being created that, you know, you may know nothing about. It may be connected just to your IP address, the number that identifies your computer that you're using, knowing that this user shops here, eats this type of food, searches for this type of information, engages in these hashtags and conversations, and that you--people know who you are and that you're creating a profile for you and the type of advertising that you receive, be it positive or negative for your health or well-being.Zach: You know, it's just so interesting, especially when you used the word "profile." It reminds me of a story, and I don't remember the name of the comic. This was, like--hm, like, 4 or 5 years ago, but I remember I was--you know, I'm very active on LinkedIn. I have a--I have a very current profile. I have a headline. I have the image and all that kind of stuff, whatever. So at one point I got an email from a company that seemed on its face very legitimate. It seemed very established--well, it kind of had that startup feel, but very polished though, and the idea was "Hey, I see that you're on LinkedIn. Would you mind creating a profile on our page? 'Cause our website is mainly focused on mentorship. We will pair you with a college undergrad student, and you can help them as they prepare to graduate. You can be a mentor and a coach for them." And so, you know, it's like, "Eh, okay." I mean, whatever. And so it took me, like, just a little second, and you could essentially transfer your LinkedIn page to their website, right? And it would just kind of, like, lift and shift it over there.Eva: Yes.Zach: And so I did it. Like, I clicked it really fast. It said, "Do you agree?" Blah blah blah, and I clicked "OK." To your whole point, I did not read, did not really slow down and really read it read it. So then, like, I forgot all about the website. I forgot all about the thing. And so then, like, fast-forward, like, maybe 3 or 4 months later. I see a profile up on their website, and it's not my name, but all of the work information, all of the career history, all of the skills and stuff like that, it's an exact copy of my profile. And so I reached out to 'em and I was like, "Hey, you need to delete this, take this down," whatever whatever, and they took it down, but it's scary, the fact that, like, that was out there for months, and, I mean, it still might be out there now. I don't know. Maybe they just took that one version down. Who's to say how many shells they made, right? How many copies they made of that? Who knows?Eva: Exactly. Reputation control is a big thing, especially as black professionals. You are constantly mindful of the way that you are putting out yourself on the internet and just in the world. So having someone take over the identity that you've worked hard for would be a terrible thing, so it's good that you were able to at least--that you came across it. Far too many times I think we don't even find out when our information is used without our permission.Zach: Well, you know, it's becoming more and more commonplace when you hear these announcements of, you know, thousands and hundreds of thousands of passwords were leaked. It's more than common, and it's kind of like we just shrug our shoulders at it because--I think this whole world, like, the tech world and just technology in itself is so big and so hard to wrap your arms around that I think it's kind of easier just to default and be like, "Oh, it'll sort itself out," until you then get some notification that your social has been stolen or something crazy. Then you want to pay attention, but it's--like, there's plenty of, like, "little" things--quote unquote little. They're not little, but little things that kind of sprout up fairly common and often enough that we should be paying a little bit more attention I think.Eva: We should be paying a lot of attention. I think that, you know, identity monitoring is one way that you can help yourself, at least in the financial world, but then paying attention, like I said, to the privacy policies of what you're agreeing to. So at least when someone's doing something wrong, you're able to say, "Wait, I know I did not say yes to this. I know that you should not have this feature turned on on my phone. You shouldn't have any of this information," and sometimes people are using information that they--you know, they're not following the rules that they've agreed to. There have been FTC and Attorney General actions around that, and those are often who you have to turn to when someone becomes a bad actor. You're reporting them to, you know, regulators to help you sort these things out, but the more proactive we can be on the front end I think is going to help us a lot more in the long run.Zach: As technology continues to progress around us, right--I mean, it feels as if technology's almost growing at the speed of thought. Like, it just seems like there's so much happening. There's so many new innovations that are coming across month after month, year after year. As technology continues to grow, how do you see tech and privacy law needing to change and adapt, particularly around things like cryptocurrency?Eva: I think that cryptocurrency is a powerful tool that's still being worked through in some spheres. You know, we know that governments may be reluctant in some instances to give over control of the dollar. That said, where cryptocurrency's in place--and not just cryptocurrency but the actual blockchain, the bitcoin, the technology on which its built--it gives a lot of power in the sense that it provides anonymity. And so when we think of the black and brown community and institutional prejudices that have faced the black and brown communities, we have to remember that sometimes, you know, we can move in a bit of silence through cryptocurrency by trading and having finances and assets that are unidentifiable. It wouldn't be identified through black and brown until the decision to reveal, and that takes up some of the middleman, some of the potential prejudices that can arise when middlemen are involved. So I think there's a power to it, but I also encourage anyone interested in cryptocurrency to really research. Research the company or the type of currency that you're interested in purchasing. Research cryptocurrency itself. Understand the blockchain a little bit more, and do the work before following the fad. I think that that's the biggest--the biggest tip, is to never just follow the fad and, you know, "Someone did it, so I'm doing it too." Make sure that you actually know what you're doing. Know the technology and understand the finances behind it, and also understand the risks when you're doing any type of investment. But cryptocurrency and the blockchain, we'll have a lot more to do in the future I do believe, particularly with the potential uses for it. It can be used for polling and voting and a lot of ways, when we look at the recent elections and how the votes got mixed up we'll say or lost, and, you know, Atlanta and Florida vote issues. I think the use of the blockchain could be a beneficial thing in that you could submit your vote. It's all handled within the blockchain, and no middleman has any say in involving himself in that.Zach: No, I 100% agree. I think that there's so much power in kind of eliminating opportunities for bias, right? So a lot of times when we talk about bias, conscious bias, unconscious bias, a lot of times we try to figure out ways to change the individual, and maybe I'm being a bit of a cynic, but I think, you know, another angle that we could go from is let's just eliminate the opportunity for you to even be biased. Let's just make it anonymous, right, where can. Let's eliminate avenues for folks to be discriminatory, and let's make sure that, you know, where we can, we empower people, and empower the most, like, objective playing fields possible.Eva: Definitely. I think that there's a power in it, and that's because the black community holds so much power, and the brown community holds so much power, and I think that harnessing it and working together could create a very mighty force.Zach: Now before we get out of here, you know, any parting words? Shout-outs? Any special projects that you're working on? Anything at all that you'd like to share with us?Eva: I would--I guess my parting word is that everyone, please read your privacy policies and understand the way that your data is used, and from a professional standpoint I would say to just keep, you know, working hard and moving forward. I think that my career has largely been based on faith and intention, and things seemed to just work out the way that they're supposed to. Every setback has always ended up landing me where I want to be, including--I would say this move was an exciting and scary adventure, but it was definitely worthwhile. So I'd just encourage everyone to find their passion and work hard, and also protect your data. Protect who you are.Zach: Amen. You know, we might need to call this podcast episode "Protect Ya Neck." What do you think about that, Eva?Eva: Right. [laughs] I like that title.Zach: [laughing] Oh, man. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, a Special Series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about CBE check out their website, www.cbeweek.com. Make sure to follow them on Instagram @experienceCBE. Make sure you follow Living Corporate on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Eva Pulliam, associate at Arent Fox. Peace.

Zach and Ade officially kick off Living Corporate Season 2 by announcing new… well, just about everything! New guests and blog posts, weekly tips provided by Tristan Layfield, and even new background music! They also discuss the expansion of Favorite Things and listener letters for Season 2.Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com or send us a DM on any of our social media platforms to submit your Favorite Things and listener letters!TRANSCRIPTZach: Ayo!Ade: What's good?Zach: We're back, we're back. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Living Corporate Season 2.Ade: Sure is.Zach: Season 2, let's go. Look, more intentional--is it more intentional? Does more intentional--is that grammatically correct?Ade: I--I do believe so, yeah.Zach: Okay, great. More intentional. Bolder. More fun. What kind of topics do we have this season, Ade? I feel like we've got some hot stuff.Ade: We do. So this season we're gonna be talking about interesting stuff like supporting black when at work, which I personally am a fan of. Being disabled while other at work, respectability politics. I mean, the real behind the helpfulness of HR. Being Latinx at work. We have a ton more content. We got some great feedback from the blog last season as well, so we're continuing that this year. Definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you check us out. It'll be on our website, living-corporate.com, and on our Medium page.Zach: In the off-season, right, we actually made some moves, okay? So we bought more domains, right? Okay, so we got livingcorporate.tv. We got livingcorporate.co. We got livingcorporate.org. We really have every Living Corporate. We have livingcorporate.net, right? We have every Living Corporate besides livingcorporate.com, because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Ade: Hold on. Now, this is the first I'm hearing of this. I have to fight Australia for--what?Zach: So it's a company in Australia, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other Living Corporates without the dashes, right, and the hyphens, so we're making these moves. Definitely excited about the blog. Like, that's gonna be great. Like, everybody isn't a podcast person, right? Like, we have this podcast. We love our podcast. The podcast is probably 90%, 95%, right, as we currently stand of what we have going on, but we want to better diversify our media offerings, because people engage in content in different ways, and we really believe in what we're doing. I would hate--I would hate for all the great things that we have going on to not be captured or not be absorbed rather. And speaking of more content and engaging people in different ways... some of y'all probably remember Tristan Layfield. Ade: Aye.Zach: Yes. He was a guest on the show last season on the episode--it was a B-Side for Landing the Job of Your Dreams. And he's a resume subject matter expert in terms of how to write them, and he's a career coach. Doing great stuff, right? Doing great stuff, and he's graciously offered to be a part of the Living Corporate team for Season 2 to give y'all his own nuggets of wisdom, and he's gonna put 'em on the show.Ade: Amazing. Shout-out to Tristan.Zach: To me that's crazy, right? Shout-out to Tristan Layfield and Layfield Resume, man. Like, shout-out to those folks over there. He's doing great work. In fact, can we get some applause? Can we get some applause for us right now, like, collaborating, sharing spaces?Ade: Totally.Zach: I mean, come on. Let's do that. Let's do that. Maybe even some air horns too, I don't know. That reminds me though, [inaudible] sound effects, drops and stuff like that, we're also gonna new background music this season. Now, look. We got a lot of feedback. People are really feeling the background music. I'm gonna call it blackground music, right? It's jazzy. It's soulful. It's refreshing, right? It's good. It's good. We've gotten good feedback on it. So we're excited about the fact that we're gonna have some new blackground music this season and new mixes for our SoundCloud. So look, we have a decent amount of followers on SoundCloud. Of course we have our most followers on Instagram, but look, on our SoundCloud, y'all, we drop mixes and, like, custom music. I know, I know, I know. You're like, "What? Y'all doing a lot." I know. Ade: We got the aux cord.Zach: We got the aux cord, we got the aux cord. And listen, the mixes are fire. They're not--there's no profanity or nothing on 'em, so when your colleagues at work, when they ask, "Hey, Jamal, do you have any music you'd like for us to play? We're having a late-night working session here." This actually happened to me when I was in Japan working with my colleagues. They were like, "Hey, let's get some music going on. Let's get some music going on." So one of my colleagues, I'm not gonna say who it was, wanted to play some Nickelback. I was like--Ade: Now, hold on. Hold on, hold on. What? Zach: Okay. So Nickelback, yeah. And I'm like, "Hey, uh, Brock, if you could just hand me the charger--hand me the aux and I'll handle it." And I take the aux cord, I'm playing the music, and let me tell you. Fire. We had a good time. They were like, "Ooh, what mix is this?" Then--another example and I'll stop--I had an orientation. So at my job, my new job, orientation. For some reason they were like, "Hey, our music isn't really working." Like, "Our playlist isn't working." I said, "Okay, cool." I plugged in my little--plugged in the SoundCloud, right? Work and Weekend Vibes Volume 1. Man. The guy, right? Senior guy who was coordinating the whole thing goes, "Hey, this is--hey. Hey. Hey, guy! Hey. Music's pretty good." I said, "Thank you. Thank you." It was great. It was great. We had a great time. So the point is we're gonna have more of that, okay? And it's gonna be fire, so we need y'all to check it out. Now, I talked about drops, right? Like, we talked about kind of, like, sound effects and stuff like that. Ade, what kind of drops should we have? Like, we're not a hip hop podcast, right? Like, we're not gonna have gunshots, right?Ade: I mean, you know what? I just feel like there are occasions in which something so fire was said that a gunshot or two might be appropriate. Zach: [laughing] That's so problematic.Ade: Listen, listen. I just feel as though there are some celebrations that require a *brap-brap* or two.Zach: A *brap-brap*! [laughs] Well, the funny thing is that culturally, right, culturally, like, there are different--you know, it's just--it's different. I've seen videos, man, of cats, like, just--I saw a video at a wedding. Everybody had guns, shooting them thangs off at the end, right? Like, as opposed to throwing rice they was throwing bullets in the air. It was crazy.Ade: So listen, as someone who has been to many a Jamaican function, yes. That's all I'm gonna say to that.Zach: Word? That's the wave? That's the wave? I don't know. That's--wow.Ade: I mean, a graduation, a baby shower...Zach: A baby shower? They're shooting--wait, whoa, whoa. They're letting 'em go at the baby shower?Ade: Nothing is complete--no celebration is truly complete until there's gunshots in the air.Zach: Until you let them thangs go? Wow. So this is the scary part about gunshots, right, is that when you shoot 'em up like that, I mean, just because of the way that gravity works, they're gonna fall, right? They're gonna come back.Ade: [laughing] What goes up surely must come down.Zach: [laughing] They're coming down. Can you imagine? Like, that is scary. You're in your house and you hear [sound of bullets dropping], and it's not rain? Like, "That is the smallest, fastest hail I've ever heard in my life."Ade: All I want to say is that [the sound Zach made] is not how guns sound.Zach: [laughs] When they fall. When they fall though. When they fall.Ade: You know what? I still don't feel like metal sounds like [the sound] when it falls on the ground. Feel free to correct me on this one.Zach: You don't think so? [laughs] I just think--I just think because they're so small. Like, they're bullets. They've already been fired, so they're not--Ade: I mean, that's cute and all, but metal just doesn't sound like that.Zach: It don't sound like that? That's [inaudible].Ade: No. I also know that if I ever need some on the spot sound effects you're not gonna be the guy that I go to for--Zach: Wow. My sound effects are fire.Ade: Are they though? Because thus far you've given me [the sound] and *brap-brap*.Zach: So I've asked you--so look, we've completely derailed, right? I asked you what sound effects we need. You've only--you've suggested gunshots.Ade: Okay, first of all, I didn't suggest gunshots. I said that gunshots should not be entirely out of our arsenal--see what I did there?Zach: Wow. Bars.Ade: [laughs] Should not be entirely out of our arsenal of sound effects. That's all I am saying personally.Zach: So what are we thinking? Are we thinking, like, maybe stuff from, like, a different world? Right? Like, I don't know--Ade: You know what? I don't--I feel like we should stay away from, like, sitcom-y sounds, but also just not be dead... so there is an in-between here, and we just have to walk the road and find it.Zach: We do. So yeah, more on that. We'll figure out what exactly those sounds are.Ade: See the wisdom I just applied there without saying anything at all?Zach: No, no, you did. No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. Ade: I appreciate my roses when I get them. I'm sorry. I'm acting a fool today. All right.Zach: Okay.Ade: Back to it. Favorite Things are back.Zach: Yeah, they back.Ade: However, this year--stay with me here--we want y'all to submit some of your Favorite Things.Zach: There you go.Ade: That's right. I'm tired of being clowned for my Favorite Things. I feel as though it is only fair that we open up our space to include others, open up our horizons by sharing with us what brings you some joy or the next week or the week after that.Zach: And you know what? Speaking of, like, sharing things, like, let me just--let me just talk about what we're sharing today, okay? We're sharing space. So you may say, "Well, yes, Zach, we are sharing space in this corporate structure as non-white people in majority-white working places, and yes, we have to figure out ways to share and navigate space--" No, no, no. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about we're practically sharing space today. Ade is sharing space in a golf room of her--of her apartment. So if you hear this, like, whooshing sound in the background, those are not beheadings. That's a man swinging at a golf ball with fiber in his being. He is hitting it as hard as he possibly can. He knows--Ade: As hawrd? Zach: Hawrd. Hawrd, yes, as he--as he possibly can. He knows that we are in this room, and this is how he's choosing to share the space with us. So--Ade: I just--first of all, he's--like, this is--this is the intended purpose of the room.*SMACK*Ade: That's one. Two, let it never be said that I don't go to some extremes for Living Corporate, okay? Because I have recorded--Zach: No, you've made--this is up there with when you recorded that show with Christa in the closet with all the blankets on top of your body.Ade: I have contorted myself into some very interesting places for Living Corporate, so I just--again, I appreciate my flowers when they are given to me.Zach: No, you are--you are appreciated, it's just I don't want to be implicated in any type of murder.Ade: See? See? Why you gotta be like that? *SMACK*Zach: Because it sounds--because it sounds so scary to me, right? Like, it sounds--Ade: Imagine being the person.Zach: Man, no, no. That sounds terrifying. Okay, let's continue. So I know we talked about Favorite Things. Listener letters.Ade: All right. Listener letters. So we're taking both Favorite Things and listener letters, wherever you're choosing to submit them. So whether you want to email them, DM us on social media--preferably Instagram, but wherever we be at, you be at--submit your Favorite Things, and we will absolutely shout you out, share your Favorite Things, and maybe talk through some of the irritating things, or awesome things, that are going on in your corporate world. So if you want to talk about your coworker accusing you of stealing their lunch, drop us a line. If you want to talk about the amazing win that you've had or the proposal that you just won or the grants that you just wrote or just about the fact that you don't feel like you're getting anywhere in your career at all. Whatever it is you want to share, let us know. We're here. What else?Zach: I mean, that's a good--that's a good point. We really want--we definitely want the letters, right? And we definitely want the Favorite Things, so just submit 'em. Like, we're flexible. We're available, right? We're here for y'all. We got all these domains, right? We got all these different social media platforms. DMs open on all of 'em, you know what I'm saying? You just hit us up. Of course we prefer it in email, so who cares? Send it to us.Ade: [laughs] Who cares what our preference is?Zach: Yeah, who cares about our preference? We are here to serve y'all. That's serving leadership, you see what I mean? Because we love y'all, you hear?Ade: I see you, change manager. I see you. Zach: That's right. Look, you gotta put yourself last, okay?Ade: I don't know about all that. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "Wait a minute. Hold on."Ade: [laughs] Hold on, now. Nah, nah.Zach: "Hold on, hold on. Not last. Maybe not first." What about second to first? All right, so what else? Okay, yeah, yeah. So look. Now, we've said this--we've said this multiple times, and I need, like, some--I need, like, some softer sentimental music, kind of like the music before you donate to those dogs and stuff with their eyes all big and the cats, and they look all sad. I need that in the background. Ade: [supplies sad music acapella style]Zach: Listen, y'all know that we need 5 stars. Y'all know that we need 5 star ratings.Ade: You know I'm not about to do this with you, right? [laughs]Zach: For a simple two seconds. A one-time donation of 2 seconds. You can actually contribute to the over-arching health and promotion of the Living Corporate podcast if you just slide over to iTunes, the podcast section. Scroll down on Living Corporate's little page on the podcast. It's gonna say, "Leave a review. Leave a rating." You're gonna take your finger, and you're gonna just press 5. 5 stars. Ade: 5 of 'em.Zach: Do you have 5 on it? 'Cause I've had 5 on it, okay? Ade: [singing] I got 5 on it.Zach: Now, we're not gonna get copy--we're not gonna sued for that because we didn't play the audio. Ade: We didn't, and also Jordan Peele has made it kind of creepy, so...Zach: Yes, he has, and so we actually probably won't even reference that again. Ade: Yeah, that's gonna be the first and the last time we do that on the sh ow.Zach: Facts. But look, really, we need 5 stars, okay? So please do us the favor of giving us these 5 stars. And look, let me just go ahead--so that was the--that's kind of like the carrot, you know?Ade: Okay. First of all--there's no stick, number one. Number two, I just want to say we also appreciate your comments that come along with those. So if you want to share any feedback, if you'd like us to bring any guests back or a rerun episode or maybe get a little bit deeper on a topic that we've discussed in the past, let us know. But yeah, give us the 5 stars.Zach: So there's no stick, so I didn't mean it that way. That was me being softer, right? But, like, let me just be practical. We have, like, thousands upon thousands of downloads on our podcast every month, and yet we only have, like, 120 reviews. Ade: It's very hurtful.Zach: Right? It hurts me, right? I'm like, "Yo." And then people will be like--and then people be on Instagram, "This podcast influences me the most every day. I love listening to this podcast," and I feel the love, I do, but I would feel it more if I could get some of these 5 star reviews. So what can we do to, like, help support 5 star reviews? Like, how can we--how can we encourage the audience to participate in 5 star reviews, Ade?Ade: I have an idea.Zach: All right, go ahead.Ade: We could do giveaways. Zach: Giveaways? Giveaways is a--okay, okay, but what are we--what are we giving away? 'Cause it's not like we have--Ade: If you send us screenshots of your review, you enter a drawing. How's that sound?Zach: Right, but what do we have though? It's not like we have any, I mean--Ade: I mean, we do have Living Corporate mugs--hold on, I'm pretty certain we do. We have mugs.Zach: So that's an announcement, right? So that's, like, a two-in-one, right? We have mugs, and we're gonna do giveaways.Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay, so we do have mugs. I agree that we should do giveaways, so let's do that. Yeah, so we have, like, these Living Corporate mugs, y'all, and they're actually pretty cute. They're really cute. They're big, so, like, you know, you can put a lot of whatever your drink of choice is.Ade: Coffee. We're drinking coffee.Zach: Coffee. Listen, let's not--Ade: Although if you're making--if you're adding a little whiskey in there, that's between you and your cup.Zach: I've seen it. It's potatoes between you and your cup. Don't ask me about what's in my cup, you know? I won't ask.Ade: I really feel like that needs to be a thing. "Don't ask me about what is in my cup."Zach: Don't ask me about what's in my cup. No, I mean, I've seen it, and, you know--like, you see it on TV a lot, right? And I don't think it's, like, crazy, but I have seen people have a little something at the bottom of their drawer for the end of the day. I've seen that before. More so in industry. I've definitely never seen it in consulting, but I have seen it in industry. So okay. Cool, cool, cool. So yes, we definitely will do the giveaways. And they're not on the website yet, right? Like, we don't have the merch on the website, but we do have mugs. And we're not popping enough, I don't think, to justify us trying to sell y'all some mugs, okay, but we do have mugs that we can give out for free to encourage y'all to support the Living Corporate team.Ade: Word. Zach: What else? What else? Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, really this season of Living Corporate--so, you know, we learned a lot, right? Like, last season, of course it just being our first season--we're not even a year old yet. You know, coming in, just trying to figure out, like, what the tone is gonna be, how we address topics. And so y'all, really though, expect more intentional, like, commentary and content and just, like, general topics. Expect more fun, right? So we're gonna try to be a little bit more laid-back. Last year was really scripted. We got that feedback a lot, but we were trying to just make sure that we were keeping things succinct and tight, and we didn't want to miss--Ade: Because as you can see, we have a tendency to stray completely off-topic and wander down alleys of distraction, but--Zach: But, you know, it is what it is. And the thing--and the thing about it is, I think--I think the other point is, like, more people than not have said, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to, like, get to know y'all more." Like, "We'd like to get know you and Ade more, understand y'all's relationship. We'd like to get to know other people on the team. You said you've got other folks around." Like, "We'd like to get to know people more," and I think there's way that we can both approachable and personable and at the same time being, you know, still--like, still stick true to what it is we really ultimately want to talk about. But yeah, I just wanted to let y'all--just say that part, because we're really excited about this season, you know? Y'all know. Y'all know it's a crazy time out here. 45 got all us messed up. Yeah, I said it. I said it. Ade: I mean, these are just facts.Zach: They're facts. They're facts. They're facts. They're Facts Kellerman, okay? They're--[laughs] Hey, side-note. So apparently somebody in the DMV--Ade told me that some people be walking around saying "factory." [laughs]Ade: Hold on, what?Zach: So, you know, people will be like, "Facts." Ade: That sounds--that sounds like something that you say in, like, Waldorf. Zach: [laughs] You said "factory." Like, "factory?" That's not--no, factory is a whole different word. That's--no, that doesn't work.Ade: Nope, nope. And I know that there is, like, a trend of saying things are true when they aren't, word to your president, but...Zach: Factory.Ade: I'm here to categorically deny any and all claims that we say that in the DMV. We just--we do not.Zach: Yeah, no. That's not gonna work. Ade: Actually, let me not--let me not do that, because the teeny-boppers might. But what do they know? They're teeny-boppers.Zach: They don't know. They don't know. "Factory" is not the way. "Factory" is a whole other word. But the point is, you know, it's just a crazy time. Like, we know it is. We see--we're seeing stories of, like, blatant inequity and inequality and oppression and just general wrong-doing every day, and, you know, there's plenty of spaces that you can engage for, like, fairly moderate, semi-safe, (rarely?) wholly-safe discussions around--dialogues around race. Or, you know, you can tune into CNN or whatever for that. You can tune into anything else for that. Like, we're trying to have, like--Ade: Tune into who?Zach: I was saying, like, CNN. You know CNN. They'll be like, "A Dialogue On Race: Part 1." "A Dialogue On Race: Part 2." You know? Like, we're not trying to have quote-unquote a dialogue. Like, we're trying to really center and respect and give credence to the perspectives of people that are not often heard, right? Irrespective of how senior they may be in the organization or what their education level is. They're not heard, they're not seen, and so, like, we're trying to drive content that centers them, that affirms that, and that really continues to encourage folks to be thoughtful and empathetic to their neighbor. And, like, that's what we're trying to do. So, you know, this season is gonna be--our hope is it's gonna be way more courageous in that way. Not to say we weren't courageous in Season 1, but, like, I want to--I want to be more courageous season-to-season, right? Ade: Right, and to add to that and not interrupt you--my bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good.Ade: Part of centering the voices of black and brown folks in this space means we're not going to be doing the "there are good people on both sides" BS, because I'm sorry, like, you're not gonna equate my voice to that of a Nazi.Zach: Right, yeah. That's super true.Ade: That's, like--of all the things that we're gonna do, that's just not going to be one of them on this here platform. And I'm sure there are--I mean, there are plenty of spaces in which you could do that. This just is not going to be one of those, and I'm perfectly comfortable categorically saying that.Zach: Yeah, straight up. Because this is the thing, like, it's not--and I think that's the other issue, like a lot of times when we have conversations like these, we present it like, "Oh, well, you know, both sides just need to understand." Like, no, both sides don't really need to understand. Like, one side needs to be more empathetic and conscious of their behaviors, actions, and their privileges, and the other side--the other side don't need to do nothing. Like, nah. I was gonna say we should be more--you know, we could be gracious and just kind of, like, be willing to receive the help, but, I mean, nah. Like, a lot of times we don't even necessarily need help as much as we just don't need harm. You know what I mean? And so anyway, I--Ade: You're my fav, Zach.Zach: What'd you say, Ade?Ade: You're my fav.Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause you got there, 'cause I really was about to be like, "What was that?" No, but the fundamental premise remains that it's actually harmful that the conversation is constantly asking those without power to be gracious and to have mercy and be kind and do all of the emotional labor for those with power, and I'm not just speaking to racial dynamics. I'm also speaking in any and all forms of--and we know that intersectionality is a thing--but speaking to any and all forms of misaligned dynamics, power dynamics, and the onus is almost always on the oppressed to coddle the oppressor, and I'm just gonna say that 2019, it's not--that's not the wave we're on. You're either catching up or you're getting left behind, and I feel like we just took a very, like, sharp revolutionary turn [inaudible], so let's dial it back and talk about our social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Man, it did. I was like, "Dang, if I take that ball back and I continue with this wave, the next pivot's gonna be too aggressive." Let's transition back onto Instagram.Ade: [laughs] Right? This is the kickoff episode. Let's treat it as such.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ade: And we've definitely been going on for a nice little while now.Zach: [laughs] Well, this is the thing, right? Historically you're absolutely right, that it's often been the oppressed's job to massage the feelings, emotions, of the people who have--who are the oppressors, who are the people with authority, who have the power, privilege and access.Ade: One more thing and I promise I'll shut up.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I won't.Zach: No, don't shut up. Go ahead.Ade: Here's the other thing. I wonder how much more we could be doing, and by we I mean just people who fall on the wrong side of the power dynamics. I wonder how much more we could be doing if we didn't expend all of this time and effort and energy and just emotional labor on managing the emotions of others, right? I wonder how much more--I think of it as "If I spend all of this time thinking through what my words will sound like as a woman, as a black woman, as a black immigrant, as a queer woman, as a Muslim..." Like, all of these things. So I think about all of the time that I think that I spend expending time and energy on making sure that I present myself appropriately. If I just took some of that time back, do you know how much more time I would have? How much more energy I would have to expend on things like sleeping?Zach: Straight up.Ade: Right? Or...Zach: Exercising. Drinking more water.Ade: Drinking more water, which--by the way, if you're listening with us right now go ahead and grab yourself a glass of water and just sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip. Anyway, but I think the fundamental point remains that--and I'm not saying that everyone goes around all of the time carrying that weight, but it is a significant amount of time, and it's almost not even a conscious thing that you do anymore, that you, as a woman, apologize for speaking in a meeting. Like, "Sorry, I just wanted to say that..." What are you apologizing for, sis? Just say what you have to say. Say it with your chest. But that's part of this, like, training that you get as being the person on the wrong side of the power dynamics. In 2019, I would just like to say "That's done." That's canceled. That is over.Zach: That is canceled. We're not doing that, and, like, we really want for people to come here and genuinely feel affirmed. Like, I'll give a really quick story. So, like, when I was in Japan--first of all, Japan is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Beautiful country. I was in Tokyo. It's a beautiful city. And I'm walking just--like, I'm walking down the street, and I see, like, another young black man, and we kind of look at each other. I give him the nod, he gives me the nod, and I'm walking, and then, like, I kind of turn over my shoulder, and he's, like, turning over his shoulder at the same time, and, like, he's looking at me. Like, we're looking at each other again, and we smiled, and I just kind of--I turned back around and I was just like, "Dang," and, like, I ain't gonna lie. Like, call it corny, call it cheesy or whatever. That made me feel really good. Like, I felt great, and I carried, like, this little awkward smile with me for, like, I don't know, maybe like a minute, right? And there were no words exchanged. There was just a certain level of just--there was a certain level of power and just love that you felt from just being acknowledged and seeing someone in a space that you did not expect to see someone that looked like you look like you, and then they see--y'all see each other. And, like, Living Corporate, I think that whatever we can do to give--I would love for everybody to feel that feeling that I had that evening, for those, like, 65, 70 seconds. It was a great feeling.Ade: That's dope.Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: All right, let's close this out.Zach: Oh, yeah. Social media, social media. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, so follow us on social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. So on Instagram we're @LivingCorporate, on Twitter we're @LivingCorp_Pod, then we got--well, Living Corporate, if you just Google us, you'll see us on LinkedIn. We're everywhere, so make sure you check us out. We're everywhere that y'all are, and I think that does it for us on the show. Remember, this is the kickoff. We have more content coming for you. [in accent] More fire for your head top. Was that a good accent? Or not really?Ade: No, sir. Please never do that again. Be blessed.Zach: [laughs]Ade: No, be best. Don't do that.Zach: Be best. [laughs] Ade: Whoo, all right.Zach: All right. Well, this has been Zach. Ade: This has been Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with 500 Startups venture partner Clayton Bryan. He sits down with us to discuss his career journey up to this point and to share valuable advice for young leaders and founders, particularly in the VC space. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Learn more about CBE Week here! https://www.cbeweek.com/Learn more about Transparent Collective: https://www.transparentcollective.com/Learn more about HBCUvc: http://www.hbcu.vc/Check out the Dorm Room Fund: https://www.dormroomfund.com/Check out 500 Startups' VC Unlocked: https://education.500.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, CBE, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we will spotlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today we are blessed to have Clayton Bryan. Clayton has over 12 years of experience in the tech space, initially working as a marketer. He transitioned into business development and over the past 3 years has worked in venture capital. Currently, as a venture partner at 500 Startups in San Francisco, Clayton is focused on the media, e-commerce, and frontier tech. Clayton is also one of the co-founders of Transparent Collective, a non-profit launched to help founders of color connect with investors and mentors. Prior to returning to the Bay Area, as a member of the Dorm Room Fund team in New York, Clayton worked with and invested in some of the best and brightest student-funded startups on the East Coast. With that being said, welcome to the show, Clay. How you doin', man?Clayton: Zach, I'm doing great, and to all the listeners out there, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whenever you might be listening to this. Happy to be here, and looking forward to, you know, having a good conversation.Zach: Absolutely. So look, man. Of course I read your profile in the introduction, but for those of us who might be wanting to know a little bit more--I know I'm one of those people--would you mind talking a little bit more about yourself and your journey?Clayton: Sure, happy to hit on some of the high notes and the milestones. So I'm originally from the Bay. Big shout-out to Oakland. And, you know, growing up I always felt this gravitational pull towards technology. I was fortunate to be able to have an Apple II back in the day and played, you know, some games on that, everything from, you know, Oregon Trail to Mavis Teaches Typing, Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing. Yeah, those are some of the OG titles.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this real fast about those games though. Did you ever played this game called Gizmos and Gadgets?Clayton: I don't recall that one. That one--Zach: 'Cause man, it was really dope. Okay, okay, but you said Oregon Trail. Did you ever play that Mario typing game? Where you type and then Mario moves?Clayton: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was a classic too, you know? So for everyone from that era, you know, those were great, and I think that they did a good job of really kind of getting a lot of folks into technology and just, you know, bringing up that awareness. And so once I saw the application of that--and then I also was able to go to, you know, great places as a kid growing up in this area. Places like the Lawrence Hall of Science up in the Berkeley Hills, and, you know, really getting to see all of these cool things happen with science. And so when I got to high school I started to code a little bit, and I took CS in high school. When I got to college, I thought that was gonna be my track as well, but I happened to go to a school where there's a really tough computer science program, and I was like, "Actually," you know, "I think I'm a little more creative than this." So I wanted to touch technology, but not necessarily from the coding perspective, and so I became actually--I was a poli-sci and economics major, and then when I graduated I joined Yahoo as a content marketer, and I was there for a couple years. Then I decided I wanted to go do the startup thing, so I worked at a couple different startups, and that's when I first got--started to really hear the term "venture capital," and back in the 2000s it was a very different time and place within Silicon Valley and the way that we think of things. Investors weren't blogging, they weren't tweeting. It was very obscure as to what investors actually did. Now it's different. Now, you know, you see--it's kind of a who's who on Twitter. Twitter has a VC category you can follow. There's Medium. It's just very easy to kind of stay plugged into that scene if you really want to learn how different investors are thinking. There's a lot of information out there. Back in the 2000s that was not the case, but I was very fortunate at the time--one of the companies I was working with, we had done a Series A and a Series B--and also the check sizes were much different than a Series A and a Series B were today--but I was the seventh hire, and I got to really see, you know, what these meetings with investors look like, and I was exposed to that, and I was like, "This is kind of cool. This is interesting," and that's really, you know, kind of planted the seed for me to want to be on that side of the table. And so fast-forward a couple years. My first--my first kind of role where I was in an investor-like seat was running an accelerator program that focused on underrepresented founders, and so through that program I got to know a lot of folks who I'm gonna shout-out later on in, you know, our conversation. But I got to see--I was even closer, but the problem with that program was that we were not writing checks, and I wanted to actually deploy capital. In order for me to feel comfortable doing that I decided, "Okay. Well, I want to go back to school," which was kind of a controversial decision at the time, because I still think MBAs are not necessarily all that welcome within the space, but I think it's changing now. But for me it leads--the decision was to go back, learn more about finance, build up that skill set, and then finally venture out as a venture capitalist, and so that's what I've been doing since 2015, and I've been incredibly blessed to join a great team at 500 and incredibly blessed to be a part of something called the Dorm Room Fund. And yeah, that's my journey in 3 minutes or less.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And, you know, it's interesting--you know, to your point about some of your decisions being a little non-conventional, still--you talked about yes, there's definitely more information to learn about venture capitalism and being a venture partner. However, Clayton, I have to be honest, man, I'm still really kind of confused when I think about the role of a venture partner. So, like, would you mind sharing a little bit more and kind of breaking it down, what it is your role entails? On, like, what you actually do on a day-to-day basis?Clayton: Sure. And, you know, I think--before I answer that I'll answer a question that I think is a good kind of intro or good for just context in terms of, you know, "Well, how did I get here?" And "Is there a certain path?" Right? I think a lot of folks that want to get into venture are like, "Well, how can I also get into venture?" And I think, you know, a couple years ago there were maybe two different pathways in, where, you know, being a founder that had success. So exited a company, sold a company, right? That was a path. Another path would be, you know, becoming an executive at a top internet company, a big brand that, you know, everyone in the States would know, and then really develop a skill set in sales or marketing or even people ops, and then market yourself to one of these firms as being able to add value. But today, you know, there are so many different firms that are popping up, and I think that if you talk to the folks that are at these firms, they all have different pathways in. And so I think the primary thing is just to have that interest and really network, and be beneficial to founders. Be beneficial to folks that work at these firms. Do the job before you have the job, and I think that's a great way to do it. And there's great programs out there, like HBCUvc, Dorm Room Fund. There's a lot of different programs out there, depending on where you are in your stage of life. We have one at 500 that's called Venture Capital Unlocked. First Round Capital has one called the Angel Track. So there's a lot of programs out there that will help you, you know, kind of get the right skills, because things change so frequently within this space. So I would say that was a little bit of a prelude to the next thing, which is "What do I do on a day-to-day basis?" Well, you know, no two days look alike. I would say the core of my duties, really I'm out here trying to help founders, and so I'm meeting with founders all of the time. If you look at my calendar at any given point in time, there's a lot of meetings with some of the current investments that I have, some of the investments that are a little bit more mature, meaning that, you know, I'm not working with them on a day-to-day, because we have an accelerator program, and so we're--it's essentially like a boot camp for entrepreneurs. So we're helping them with their marketing, their sales. We're helping them really craft the way they're thinking about their investor strategy, and then also with the execution, because a lot of the folks that come through our program, you know, they might be really good at their core competency, whether that's, you know, data science or agriculture tech or spinning up something--you know, some kind of hardware play, but when it comes to the nuances around going out and fundraising and selling your business to the investor audience, it's a little bit of a different type of game. So just understanding and acquainting yourself with the language and the types of models and terms that are being used at this stage. I'm talking about things, you know, as far down as, like, customer acquisition costs, but just understanding things like, you know, your revenue, your different growth rates, right, and how to present that in a way that's meaningful, impactful, but translates well into the minds of investors. So a lot of what I do is coaching. I'm always looking for the next best--the next greatest thing, right, that I can invest in, but even if I can't invest in it right now, I still need to be able to talk to with those founders, help them as much as I can, because I'm always looking for potential, and that means a couple--that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I'm out there always looking for potential. So a lot of what I do I categorize kind of as just, like, helping founders. That would be one big category, and then other things that I do is meeting with other investors and really trying to assess how they're looking at the market or markets right now, what's interesting to them, because as someone that's at the seed stage, I--at the end of the day, I need to have confidence that I can help my companies raise money, and if the later-stage players are not as actively looking for deals in that category, it might be--it might not be the right time. Timing is so big in what we do, right? It's a huge--I would say timing and [seeds?] are so important. So you really have to get an understanding, if you're a founder, "Is this the right time for me to go and fundraise for this business? Should I try to hunker down, just focus on product right now, and come out in 6 months when things might be a little bit different?" Right? So again, going back to that fundraising strategy piece, but a big part of what I do also is just networking with investors, networking with other stakeholders in the States, folks that might be doing products at Slack or Pinterest or wherever and just asking them, "What are you seeing that's interesting within your category," right? Because that's helping me make more informed decisions when I'm looking--when I'm crafting my theses, my investment theses, and when I'm starting to go out and I'm meeting with different founders trying to see "Can I find founders that think similarly about the way the future's going to be, and then can I back those founders?" And that's--at the core of my job, as someone that's thinking actively about my fiduciary to my [inaudible] partners, I'm constantly thinking about that, right? Constantly trying to think about the trends that not everyone else is seeing just yet, right? Especially at the early stage. That's what we have to do. We have to be able to look across--look around not the next corner but two corners, because we're investing at such an early stage.Zach: Man, that's just--that's incredible, and there's--you know, I have--I have a couple questions about that role and how you show up. Before I ask that question, you know, all of the things you're talking about and the brands that you're mentioning and the conversations that you're having, I'm curious, how many--how rare is it to see black men moving in this space? And I'll say--I'll just say people of color. I'll just say non-white folks to start, but then how--but how rare is it? It seems like it would be rare.Clayton: Yeah. I mean, like, it's rare to see women. It's rare to see Latinx. It's rare to see black men. It's rare to see anyone that doesn't fit a certain profile of what you're already named, right? And so it is rare, but I think it's starting to get better, and, you know, I can't quantify that growth rate, but I think that more and more investors are starting to realize that there's a need to have multiple perspectives, right? We can't all think the same when we're doing an investment. We can't all, you know, have been trained at the same academic institution and travel in the same social groups, because we're gonna miss out on big movements. And even on a geographical note as well. There's big things that are happening across the continent of Africa, right? And there's big things that are happening all across the world, and we can't just think in that tunnel vision of "What's the next greatest thing that's gonna come out of Northern California?" We have to think--we have to think beyond that, right? And so there are things that are helping. There are things that are getting us where we need to be, but I think that the pace can pick up. And I mentioned, you know, groups like HBCU VC, which I think are great, but we need more of that. We need more of that, and we need more funds like what, you know, Chris Lyons is doing with the Cultural Leadership Fund. We need a lot of that. We need to amplify that times 10 at least, because I'm not seeing enough folks that look like me and have similar backgrounds when I go to these different conferences, different networking events, and I think that's problematic when we start to really see, you know, what's getting invested in, who's getting invested in, right? There's steps out there that talk a lot about that, you know? Talk about the amount of fundraising going to folks of color compared to, you know, folks that are coming from, you know, I'd say more common backgrounds within tech, and it's staggering in terms of the disparity.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we actually had an--we actually had an episode about that last season where we talked about--where we talked about being in venture capital while black, being in venture capital while other, and we discussed the disparity and fund allocation to the point where--they were talking about certain demographics, it was, like--to represent it in dollars would've been, like, basically zero, right? So it's nuts, and that--to your point though about the role, you know, it seems as if your role requires, like, a cocktail of being able to kind of influence without direct authority, a lot of emotional and social intelligence, and then also all of that still being backed up by significant business competence. Can you talk a little bit about how you show up being, you know, one of the few, and what is it that you're doing in these spaces that are--that are majority white? And what challenges, if you have any, have come with that?Clayton: Yeah. I mean, I think it's just, like, being able to paint pictures. Like, for one, I mean, you definitely need to have your facts, right? You need to have your facts and your stats down, and you need to be able to help those around you, and I'm talking about other investors, see what these trends are telling me. I need to translate that over to them, right? And I need to translate it over to them in language that they will be able to understand, because at the end of the day, like, we're all here to try to, at minimum, 3X our money, if not greater, right? 5X, 10X, and sometimes, you know, if these other investors lack that background, they might not be able to understand things in the same manner, right? And this is why I think every board room--and you're starting to see this within big tech companies, like the Twitters and the Salesforces and the Googles of the world, where they're realizing that they're building products for the entire world, so they need to have a team that reflects that, right? And so--but in the venture scene, we're not seeing that as--you know, we're not seeing it develop as quickly. So for me, in order to go in, you know, I need to be able to pound the table, have the facts, but really build these theses in a way in which can align with what my firm wants to do, right? And so I think a lot of it is just, like, you have to go the extra mile, right? You have to really put in that extra work, and it's making me a much better investor, but part of me is like, "It shouldn't have to be this hard," at the same time, right? Like, if I want to do a deal that's founded by a person of color and I think that--and I'm able to show the data, the trends, all of this is really supporting going in this direction, right? And it's funny, sometimes even money that's coming from outside of the United States sees it better than money that resides within the United States, because it's--like, they understand how emerging markets work, and sometimes, you know, if you put it in that lens, like--I mean, we're not emerging, but we have the same capability of an emerging market in terms of the growth potential. Then a lot of the dollars from overseas are like, "Oh, I want in on that," right? And so sometimes it's just you have to be creative, but, like, you just have to--you have to persevere. I think that's the biggest thing, is really, like, you just have to keep willing to push through, and that's the same note that I want to give out to the founders listening, which is, you know, you have to knock on--especially the seed level. You're gonna have to knock on a lot of different doors. I have founders that come in and tell me, like, "Look, I heard "no" 91 times, and I heard "yes" 9 times, but that's all I needed to close my seed." So don't get--you know, don't get, you know, depressed. Don't have anyone try to knock you off your hustle. You're gonna just have to find the folks that your message resonates with the most, and so that's the message I want to give to the founders that's out there.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely right. You know, my father--you know, he's a bit of entrepreneur, financial background, sales background, and what he would--he always tells me is he's like, "Son, you know, you don't need but one yes." Like, often times you just need that one. Like, people keep on--like you just said, you know, the majority said no, but you really just needed, like, a scant few to say "yes" for you to continue forward. And I think it's hard though when--you know, when you continue to present and you present and you present, and, you know, who knows what those no's look like, right? 'Cause a no is a no, but, like, you know, the way that they--sometimes the way people tell you, you know, can hurt. Like, maybe you were told no like, 10 times, even though you were just told no once. You know, so those types of experiences. It's tough, so that's great advice. Before we--before we let you go, do you have any other parting words, shout-outs, or special projects that you're working on?Clayton: Yeah. So I just want to, you know, give a shout-out to Transparent Collective. You know, it's a great initiative that we're trying to, you know, continue, and we're actually looking for sponsors for that. So that's a--it's a great initiative. It's a labor of love, and I want to see that continue in the future. So folks out there that might be interested in sponsoring, hit me up. Big shout-out to--you know, this is gonna be a little bit of a long list, and there's people that definitely if I--it could be a lot longer, but, you know, I want to keep time in mind. So big shout-out to Monique Woodard. She's done a lot to help me out professionally. Big fan of hers. Chris Lyons, Marlon Nichols, Connie LaPuebla, Richard Kirby, Eric Moore, Austin Clements, just to name a few. And then also I love what initiatives like Black VC are doing and also HBCUvc, which I mentioned a few times in this podcast. So that's it. And also one last shout-out to all the founders out there, all the hustlers, all the innovators that are grinding right now. You know, keep building. Keep moving forward. Keep persevering. I know it might be tough. I know that, you know, it might be disheartening when you hear "no" here and there, but you really gotta keep grinding, and you will find your path. And, you know, to the best extent that I can, I'm always willing to make myself available for folks that have questions on the businesses that they're building or the careers they're trying to build, because I believe that you really have to pay it forward in this world. So on that note, that's all I have, and signing off. Thank you, everybody. It's been a great pleasure to have this conversation.Zach: Clayton, man, first of all, the pleasure has definitely been ours. Wonderful feedback, thoughts, and points of advice here. We're gonna make sure that we list all of the organizations that you listed, that you named off, that you shouted out, in the show notes, and then we'll also make sure to have your LinkedIn information in the show notes as well so that people can reach out to you as they're able. Now, I think that's gonna do it for us, folks. Thank you for joining the Living Corporate podcast, a Special Series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about the Coalition of Black Excellence check out their website CBEWeek.com, and make sure that you actually sign up for CBE Week, which is gonna be happening February 18th to the 24th of 2019--that's this year, come on, y'all--in the San Francisco Bay Area. If you go to their website, you'll be able to learn more, get your tickets, and all that kind of stuff right there. Now, make sure you follow us on Instagram though, okay? @LivingCorporate, and make sure you follow CBE at @ExperienceCBE. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Check out our website, living-corporate.com. This has been Zach, and you've been speaking with Clayton Bryan. Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with Tucker Ellis partner Monica Williams Monroe. She sits down with us to discuss her career journey up to this point and to share valuable advice for younger leaders in the corporate environment. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Learn more about CBE Week here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual, week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we spotlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today, we are blessed to have partner at Tucker Ellis LLP Monica Williams Monroe. In her capacity as local national and trial council, Monica represents a variety of corporate and insurance interests, including those of property owners, service contractors, product suppliers, and equipment manufacturers. She defends clients in several litigation areas involving premises liability, including both premises owners and subcontractors and claims arising from construction improvements. Monica also handles client matters involving general council--sorry, general contract analysis, business disputes, real estate litigation, and bankruptcy proceedings. Monica, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Monica: I'm great. Thanks so much for having me, Zach. I'm excited to be here, and it's a super sunny day here in California, so no complaints on my end.Zach: There we go, and no, excited to have you here, and shout out to California. Definitely a beautiful place. Just got back from San Francisco a couple weeks ago. I had a great time. For those of you who don't know you, and I recognize that I gave a little bit of an intro, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Monica: Sure, yeah, and thanks for reading that background, but basically I'm a trial lawyer. I try cases here in Northern California and actually throughout the state, and I'm entering my 16th year of practice, which is kind of hard--Zach: Wow, congratulations.Monica: Thank you. It's kind of hard for me to believe that. I'm currently the Partner-in-Charge of the San Francisco office of Tucker Ellis, and the focus for my work is really on [inaudible] litigation, which is just business disputes, and product liability. Like I said, 16 years. It's really hard to believe, but I still love what I do, and it feels like a new challenge kind of every day. So that's a little bit about me.Zach: Wow. So now, you know, would you mind talking to us--so you talked about 16 years, [inaudible], and again, congratulations. Please talk to us about your professional journey and how you became a partner at Tucker Ellis.Monica: Yeah, yeah. You know, I was thinking about that, and just kind of even going all the way back, you know, my path was a little bit different than some others. I started out--I went to undergrad at Clark in Atlanta, and when I was in college I thought that I was gonna be in communications. I was really into marketing and PR. That's where my focus was. My degree was in communications. Then when I got out of undergrad, that's straight--what I went into was a media sort of focused career, and while I was there doing that work--it was really fun and exciting, but I still kind of wanted to do something different. So I had a few friends who were actually looking at law school. I had never thought about it. I'm the first lawyer in my family, and it just seemed like an interesting path for me. I've always, again, loved communication, loved words, and then kind of a wordsmith, and so I thought, you know, I should try. Some people encouraged me to go ahead and try and apply to law school, and when I did I ended up not just getting accepted, but I ended up getting full academic scholarship offers. So when that happened I was like, "You know what? That's probably something I should think about pursuing," and so I ended up, you know, going to Loyola Law School in L.A. I loved, loved, loved it. Had a fantastic experience there and practiced for a little bit after that in a few different areas. I did some transactional work and just dabbled in a few different things before I ended up at Tucker Ellis. And people really encouraged me as I sort of moved along, and when I found litigation, when I found myself in the courtroom, that's when I really found my love, and I was like, "Oh, you can do this. You can basically get up and argue with people, and people pay you to do this? I'm in." So when I really found my love and then found the right firm, I just matriculated through so quickly. I joined Tucker Ellis as an associate, and then I moved up later into the council position, and then in 2016 I was elected into the partnership, but for me it was really a natural progression. It was sort of just the thing I loved to do, and then I got lucky enough to be surrounded by people who really encouraged me and fostered me along the way.Zach: That's a beautiful story, and that's awesome. And, you know, it's interesting also, because I can count, like, the number of black lawyers that I know on one hand, and none of them are really working at a--at a firm. Like, they have their own kind of private practice that they've set up. What is your experience in navigating that space?Monica: Yeah. I mean, I think for me it's really been purposeful. It is a beautiful story, and I love my story, but it definitely didn't come--you know, it didn't sort of happen by accident. I really just surrounded myself with a network of folks, either, you know, both inside and outside of my organization. No matter where I've been, and that's been true for me now, is that I have a network of people that I can go to. When I'm figuring out my next steps, I'm definitely using them as much as I can as a sounding board. People who have done what I done and then some, people who are at positions that I can only dream about, right, that I think are really successful, those are the people that I kind of reach out to and say, "Do you think this looks right?" Like, "I'm headed in this direction. This is the next thing I want to do," and they give me honest and real feedback, and I think that that's the most important thing for me, is that I don't surround myself with people who just, you know, sound fantastic and tell me how great I am. They're real, and they'll tell me whether or not, you know, my goal or my expectation needs some more time to cook or if I really should be going after sort of that next thing. And so that's kind of how I got to the partner level, was really just having that strong network of folks, both inside and outside of the firm.Zach: So I'm--first of all that's awesome, and I know for me, in my experience, having folks who are in your corner, who you can talk to, who will give you honest feedback, right? Who are not just a cheerleader section, but at the same time ain't a bunch of haters too, right? But people who really care about you (laughing) and who actually will help you and help make sure that you're--you know, that you're staying on track and that you're--when you have ideas about the next steps that they actually make sense, and they're people you can trust, really. You know, as a senior leader who is also a black woman, do you believe that you have had any particular hurdles or challenges to navigate when it comes to building trust and establishing rapport and really building and leveraging influence?Monica: Yeah, that's a great question, and that's a very real, true thing. I mean, we have some very real stereotypes and perceptions I think, you know, for communities of color and black women in particular, that we have to deal with and sometimes break through, and for me, I think I've learned to try to find the commonality, right? I may look different than someone else. I may--you know, maybe come from a different background, but I try to find the commonality so I can develop the rapport and gain the trust, right, of others, whether it's inside of the firm, whether it's client relationships. Those are the things that I think bring us together, are the commonalities, and, you know, to be sure, I am--I've got a lot to work with. I am a first-generation American on my mom's side. She was from Panama, and my dad was born in the South and then later raised in New York. So I was constantly sort of surrounded by people of different cultures and different socioeconomic backgrounds. I spent a summer, you know, in Brazil one year, and then spent the next summer in Brooklyn. And for me, you know, I think my parents really--I look back, I think they probably did a lot of that intentionally, because I feel like when I walk into a room, no matter what it looks like, I'm comfortable, and I look for what I have in common as opposed to--you know, what might be different between me and the folks maybe at the table or in the room. So that's, you know, something that I talk to a lot of young lawyers about now, is when you're building your brand, sort of figuring things out and trying to develop a report, look for the commonalities. And like I said, I feel like I'm lucky, 'cause I have--I have a lot to dabble in. There's usually something I can find where I connect with someone. But that's important, you know? When you're working, particularly in the legal industry, you know, we're dealing with problems, right? People are not coming to me when they're necessarily happy about what's going on in business, and so you've got to trust me, and we have to have a good relationship to get through it sort of together, and same thing internally, you know? We are sort of building--we have a business and a law firm that's built on helping other people with their problems, so people in the firm have to trust me to move things along, you know, whether it's just in the office setting, with human resources or with clients, and we have to--you know, people always default to that. I feel like when, you know, things get tough, they default to just a common style of communication and the commonalities. So that's--that's what I try to do.Zach: So I definitely--that's just--that's great feedback to give, because often times I think it's easy for us when we feel--when we feel other, it's easy for us to, like, further otherize ourselves and be like, "Okay, well, of course. Of course you're not gonna," you know, "trust me, because I'm X, Y, and Z," as opposed to kind of leaning the other way and being like, "Okay, wait. Well, let's just--let me think about some of the things that actually are common between us that I can really leverage and really play to," and maybe even overplay to, in the spirit of creating those bonds. So when I talk to professionals--and you talked about younger lawyers, and so--you talked about 16 years. I've been working for about 7 years, and when I talk to professionals in my peer group--so, like, kind of, like--not mid-career, but, you know, early, early-career still professionals who are also black and brown, one of the things we always commiserate together is the feeling of not being heard at work, right? Like, we're speaking up in meetings to contribute or we're facilitating a meeting, and for some reason or another we're not connecting with our audience. Sometimes we'll even have the words that were shared repeated back to us as if we didn't say them. And so I'm curious, have you ever experienced that? And if so, you know, what advice do you have for younger leaders trying to manage that, you know, emotionally, mentally, and professionally?Monica: Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's definitely something that comes up. I think in various times in my career I've, you know, experienced that. We all have. The first--the first advice is just breathe and try not to take that stuff in personally, right? Especially if you're facilitating a meeting. That's tough, when you feel like you're not really connecting with your audience. That's just a tough kind of situation to sort of navigate through. And it may be an uncomfortable meeting, and it may not kind of go the way that you want it to, but my--you know, the way I dealt with it and the way I talk to young folks about that is just stay true to you and stay true to yourself. And you're talented, right? That's why you're facilitating the meeting or why you're raising your hand, because you have something of value to add and you know that, and so you're speaking up. And so just having that understanding that you are adding value to the conversation or to the room or to the group is huge, and if you stay sort of true to that and understand that, you know, it may just be that somebody is looking at you a certain way, and they're not seeing you or hearing you, or they're, you know, kind of overlooking what you're saying, or it may just be that that person, you know, is not in tune or connected for the day. It could be a variety of reasons, and so--those settings too are moments and opportunities where we try, as senior leaders, right, to listen to what's going on and to really validate, right, what someone's saying. Like, if I were in a meeting and you were talking, and I felt like people weren't connecting with you, I would probably jump in and say some things like, you know, "Another point that Zach made," and I would really try to validate what you said in order to get people to hear you, because now we're building consensus sort in the room. And that kind of goes back to that whole point, right, of having your mentors and your network and your allies around you, because people that are down for you will do that in the meeting setting, and they will make sure that they're kind of ushering things along for you. And I personally--when I look back now, I know I've had people do that. I just didn't know what they were doing at the time. [laughs] You know? And now I'm like, "Oh, yeah." You know, "That person was fully supporting me and kind of ushering my thought along," 'cause maybe somebody didn't hear it or didn't want to hear it, but then another voice came in of someone senior, and it was her. And, you know, that's just kind of the setting--the corporate setting, right? Sometimes it's unfortunate that it takes that, but it's helpful to have, and I know a lot of women in particular are very good about doing that. You know, for a lot of other women of color, when we're in meetings, they try to sort of support and really validate what the other woman has said, especially if we feel like someone wasn't paying attention or the room just doesn't get it, you know? So that's kind of how I look at it. And the other thing I would want to say about that setting is it might have just been a bad meeting, and you may get through it and it wasn't great, but debriefing afterwards is always huge. Like, if you feel like it didn't go well or you really weren't connecting, find somebody, you know, that you would consider to be an ally--if you don't already know that they are--in the room and ask them afterwards, you know? "What could I have done better?" "What did you think about it?" And, you know, take it from there.Zach: No, those are great points. Now, let's do this. Before we get out of here, any shout outs or parting words?Monica: [laughs] For sure. Well, definitely a huge shout out to Angela Johnson, the CEO and founder of CBE Week. This is an amazing opportunity for us to get together and not just network, but to build each other up and to improve on so many levels. So for all of the work that Angela's doing, I just want to give a shout-out to her. But for parting words, definitely--we'll be talking about this, these topics, at CBE Week, and I think it's a huge opportunity for us to get together and really, you know, talk about building our brand and being strategic and thoughtful about where our careers are going, so I'm really excited about the panel that I'm on. We'll have a whole host of people in legal positions, in diversity positions, really trying to help those, no matter what stage you are at in your career. You know, we can all use advice, right, on how to strategize and build ourselves up for the next step and make sure we have the support that we need. For me, this is, like, a true passion of mine, is trying to work with the pipeline and the next generation and making sure we all have access, you know, and opportunity, and so I'm so excited about CBE Week and our ability to, you know, talk about these issues. So I want to say thank you to you for giving us this platform.Zach: Yes. Well, thank you, Monica, and this is awesome. And actually, that's a great segue, 'cause that does it for us on this particular interview. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, a Special Series sponsored by, you guessed it, the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about CBE Week, check out their website CBEWeek.com. Make sure to follow them on Instagram at @experienceCBE, and make sure you follow us on Instagram at @LivingCorporate, Twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Monica Williams Monroe, partner at Tucker Ellis. Peace.

Zach and Ade stop by for a brief New Year's intermission in this special episode of the Living Corporate podcast. Living Corporate's CBE Week Series continues next week, but for now, enjoy this check-in! They discuss the importance of effective goal setting and share their New Year's resolutions.Find out more about CBEWeek here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? That's right, it's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: Aye. And listen, we're not back back, and we ain't even really back, but we're here in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series.Ade: Yes.Zach: Yes, that's right, just to say Happy New Year.Ade: Happy New Year.Zach: Happy New Year. So look, it's 2019. Now, I don't know how many of y'all do resolutions or how often y'all do resolutions, but we had some resolutions we wanted to, you know, just talk about as we think about 2019, as we prepare for 2019 mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, all of that different stuff. So yeah, here we go. So Ade, look, before we get into these resolutions, do you do resolutions often? Like, is this a thing for you? Or is this, like, a new thing or what? Ade: So it's weird. I don't really do New Year's resolutions. I do birthday resolutions. I think that starting with the new year is not necessarily as significant for me personally as starting with my birthday, because my birth--I mean, not to sound self-centered, but it's about me and on my timeline, and so for me it's more honest, actually, to say that in my 23rd year, or in my 24th year, or in my 25th year, I would like to make these changes, and this is who I aspire to be, and becoming a better person starts on November 1st because that's when my life started. Now, January 1st is great though because it sort of allows you to have accountability partners, and you're better able to say, "Me and my group of friends will be doing XYZ in order to get to ABC goal." Does that make sense?Zach: Yeah, it does, definitely. No, I get that. You didn't ask me, but--no. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] Haha, haha. Well, you--I asked to clarify.Zach: Also I didn't really give you any space to say anything. [inaudible].Ade: You really didn't, you really didn't.Zach: No, I didn't. I just hopped right in there.Ade: You did, so back up off me, bruh. [laughs]Zach: [laughing] No, no, that's a good point. I mean, it's funny that you say that, 'cause I think--I'm not a big resolutions person. This is probably, like, the--I don't know, maybe fourth or fifth time in my life that I've done New Year's resolutions, but when I think about making resolutions to myself, typically they're around my birthday or more recently, in the past half-decade, they've been around my wedding anniversary with my wife. So we'll make them together, right?Ade: Dope, yeah.Zach: At the same time, I think whenever you can identify some type of pace or cadence to create some goals and points of progress of yourself, all good, right? It doesn't have to be--it can be whatever date you want it to be, but I think as long as you're doing--you're mindful of that in some way, I think it's good for you. Okay, so let's get into it. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?Ade: You go first. I think I liked what you were talking about earlier, and I want you to share with the people, you know? Look at me, a gracious host. [laughs]Zach: Look at you. [laughs] Okay, so my resolutions--so the first one is to read more, right? So I feel like I read a good bit. Like, I read--I read okay. Like, I definitely read a lot of articles. I read a lot of, you know, just pieces as they come up, especially as the world has been going on today. I read a lot of political pieces. I read The Atlantic often. I don't really read The New Yorker as much, but I read. I'd like to read more. I'd like to read about a book every other month. You see what I'm saying? I didn't give myself a crazy--like, "a book a month." Like, I'm not gonna do that.Ade: Look at you.Zach: Right? So I'd like to read six books by the end of 2019. The second thing is of course just continuing to get healthier. I want to be around. The world is crazy as it is, you know? Plenty of things could take you out any day, so you don't want one of those things to be yourself if you can help it. Ade: Right. Don't be your own enemy of progress.Zach: Right, do not be your own enemy of progress, yes. And then the third thing, which kind of connects to the second thing, drinking a lot more water, right? Ade: Hallelu.Zach: Right? So, like, you know, there are people out there--Ade: I just--I just want to take a second here. I really hate to interrupt you, but if you're listening, go ahead and find a glass of water and sip with us. All right, carry on, Zach.Zach: Yes, a sip. Sip, yes. No, seriously, it's delicious. You can have it cold. You can have it room temperature. You can have it hot, but-- Ade: Wait, hold on. Do you--do you just run around drinking hot water? [laughs]Zach: Ayo. So listen, actually--I do not, right? But I have a good friend of mine who--no, he loves hot water. Like, he loves it. Man, listen. Ade: Okay, I would like to speak to your--like, bring him on this show. I have so many questions.Zach: No, no. I'ma bring him on this show. I'm not gonna--I'm not gonna drop his name, 'cause this is very impromptu, but--Ade: This is--this is a safe space. I just have some questions for you, young man, because... huh? Okay, sorry. Carry on. I got us so off-track just then.Zach: No, no, no. So no, he does. He drinks hot water, and it was funny--so he's one of the people--I don't know if you have people like this in your life. You look up to them, like, to the point where, you know, if they do something that you're not really familiar with, and if other people did that thing you would clown them, but if they do it you're like, "Well, dang, why are you doing that? Let me--"Ade: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl."Zach: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl." "Maybe I should give it a whirl." Okay. [laughing]Ade: Okay, so first of all, you're not about to come for me, sir.Zach: "Give it a whirl"?Ade: "Give it a whirl." I said what I said.Zach: No, it's funny. [laughing] No, so he--so he was like--I came into his home and he was like, "Zach, so I've been drinking--I've been doing this thing. I've been drinking hot water," and I said, "Really? What?" And he said, "Yeah, would you like some?" And I said, "Sure," and let me tell you something, it was just hot water. It wasn't--I was like--Ade: I really was expecting to be like, "And it changed my life. It revolutionized how I look at water intake." No?Zach: No, it did not. In fact, I was like, "Man, I really would like some cold water right now." Anyway, where was I? Yeah, so drinking more water. So, you know, this kind of a case of two Americas. So there's a--for my non-melanated folks, you know, there's a phrase called "drinking water and minding your business." So drinking water and minding your business, it just saves a lot--it saves you a lot of stress and drama, right? So you look at Paul Rudd. Again, speaking to my--speaking to the majority, right? If you look at Paul Rudd, Paul Rudd is the greatest example of drinking water and minding your business, right? He looks great. He hasn't aged a day. He looks the same as he did in 1993. Right? He does. He looks phenomenal, right? Drinking water and minding your business--you know, I plan on drinking a lot of water, but I--because of the nature of our podcast, I don't know if I plan on minding, quote unquote, my business. I mean--you know what I mean? Like, my business is--yeah, like, my business--Ade: Your business is sort of everybody's business.Zach: Lowkey, right? Like, I'm not messy. Like, I'm not out here, like, Messy Mya. RIP Messy Mya. Look, now I'm talking to the black folks. I'm more so trying to--but I am trying to, like, be more hydrated, right? And, you know, there's the--our bodies are a majority water, so it's--everyone knows at this point it's 2019. Wow, it's 2019. So I don't have to--I shouldn't have to debate with y'all to drink more water, but please, drink more water. And also, speaking of--'cause, you know, we also do Favorite Things. We talk about music and stuff. A sleeper, shout-out Joe Budden Podcast, is the Mick Jenkins' "Drink More Water" project he put out, it was--Ade: You have lost me. You have lost me. I don't know what you're talking about. I also don't listen to Joe Budden's podcast, so maybe that's where the disconnect is right now, my friend. Zach: So "sleeper" is a term, like, you know, this is some music maybe y'all have missed or y'all don't really know about.Ade: Oh, 'cause the first thing I thought was a sleeper cell, and I was like, "All right, well, I--I have to bow out of this conversation, because I don't know anything about sleeper cells."Zach: No, no, no. No sleeper cells. Nothing like that around here. Please. Feds, please don't--don't get us. Ade: Right? We've got to go.Zach: Yeah, right? Now, look, we're gonna have to delete all of this, because Aaron's gonna transcribe this, and then it's gonna be all on Google and stuff. There's gonna be "sleeper cells"--Ade: Oh, see--nah, mm-mm. Aaron, just go ahead and--Zach: Delete all of this.Ade: Yeah. Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, you know, I'm excited about that. I feel as if those are some smart goals. I feel like they're very attainable, they're realistic, and they're helpful for me for what I'm trying to do, right? They're very straightforward. So that's me. Those are my New Year's resolutions.Ade: Okay, okay. Now, I want to push back a little bit. Part of what is important when you're setting goals is to set intentional goals, right? There's this concept of SMART goals, and so that is--so you set Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound goals, and that way you have much more--you're more likely to achieve those goals. So by specific, I mean [inaudible] drink water--by smart I mean you want to drink water, so do you want to drink a gallon of water a day? Do you want to set time goals, like, "By 9:00 a.m., I've had 16 ounces of water." So I think goals and resolutions are all talk until you are able to really discern for yourself what those goals are, how you're going to make them happen, and what that timeline's gonna look like. So I'm gonna repeat what SMART is. You have Specific, you have Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound or Time-sensitive goals. So to give you an example, this year, in 2019, I want to get my solutions architect cert, my AWS solutions architect cert. I want to do that by July '19. So that is a specific goal. It's measurable because it's a certification, it's achievable 'cause, I mean, I can study for it. It's relevant to my larger kind of goal for my life, and it's time-bound. I have set a hard deadline of July 2019 to get that certification, do you see what I'm saying?Zach: No, I definitely understand what you're saying, and you're right. So opposed to me saying, "I want to drink more water," I should be saying, "I want to drink about a gallon of water a day." Instead of me saying, "I want to get healthier," I should say something like, "I'd like to work out at least two to three times a week and cut out sugary and processed foods." And, you know, I kind of did it with the book one when I said I'd like to read a book every other month. So no, I get it. You're absolutely right, and to your point, when we--when we're not specific and really truly smart--let's go ahead and just give out the acronyms to smart real fast. So it's--Ade: Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Now, there are also some people who say it's SMARTER, where you have all of those that I just mentioned, and then you have Evaluated and Reviewed, which I think are also important parts of the goal setting process, but we don't have to go quite that far right now.Zach: [laughing] No, no, no. This is great. So, you know, it's important, because I think we--the less specific we are with the goals that we say we have, the more of an out we give ourselves to short-change ourselves in the future, right? So--and then also, if they're not specific to you, then you can end up kind of moving the goal posts on yourself and not really ever achieving [inaudible]. So if you say, "Man, I really want to lose some weight," right? I'm gonna pick on losing weight because losing weight is--like, almost everybody feels like they either need to or would like to lose some weight.Ade: Or the alternative for those of us skinny-minis who want to gain some weight, but gain healthy weight.Zach: There you go. Some people want to gain some healthy weight. Thank you. Let's be inclusive of all of our body types and health spaces. Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. [laughs] So when you say, "Hey, I'd like to have this health goal," if you're not really specific in, like, the numbers you're trying to achieve or the--just what you're outcome is, then you can end up saying, "Well," you know, "I didn't really have to work out today. I just want to work out more," and you end up--you end up cheating yourself. Or you say, "Well, I didn't say I wanted to eat perfectly healthy. I just wanted to eat more vegetables," and it's like, "Okay..." And you just end up cheating yourself. So I think the more specific you can be and, like, more granular you can be with what your goals are, the harder it will be for you to ignore the fact that you're either off-track on them or not really driving towards them. So I super agree with that.Ade: Right. On that note, I'll share some of my goals. And I know I got on you for SMART, and some of mine aren't necessarily SMART goals, but we move. Anyway, so I would like to read and discuss five meaningful articles a week. Zach: Okay, okay.Ade: So that's whether they're in The Atlantic or whether I'm scrolling through Medium and some of the software engineering spaces that I follow. I'd like to be able to read and discuss five articles, and part of that is in finding some of the computer science fundamentals. Base CS has some really great--I don't know if I want to even call those articles, but some really great write-ups on computer science fundamentals, which are important for me to learn. So I'd like to do that five times a week. I would like to get my solutions [inaudible] earlier, my AWS solutions architect certification, by July 2019. This is--this next one I haven't quite figured out how I'm gonna do yet, but I want to reinvent my wardrobe. Now, I say that because I was having a conversation with my partner, and often times when we're out or we really have to go out, I'll just, like, throw on sweatpants and a t-shirt or whatever, and then when we get out I'll complain about looking like a hobo. Okay, that wasn't necessarily how I wanted to say that, but I'll complain about not looking my best self.Zach: Right.Ade: And part of that is just I didn't--I don't necessarily have all of the pieces that I want, and I want to show up, like, how I feel. I want to show up looking and representing myself in my best light, and so part of that--I'm still always going to be a joggers and tennis shoes kind of girl, but I don't have to be a four sizes too large sweatpants and t-shirt that I bought when I was in 7th grade sort of girl, you know? So that's important to me as well. I want to go to the gym once a week and work out of home three times a week. I'm going to create three projects for my portfolio, and I'm going to attend AfroTech in November this year. Those are my goals.Zach: That sounds--that sounds incredible. Those are great goals.Ade: AfroTech is also lit, and if anybody's trying to sponsor me to go to AfroTech, hit your girl up.Zach: Man, listen. Y'all want to sponsor Ade, y'all want to sponsor Living Corporate and we'll send Ade? Man, let's--come on. Get in our inbox.Ade: Let's go. Let us know.Zach: DMs are open for everybody. They are. True.Ade: Okay, uh, let's clarify. Not that open. [laughing]Zach: They are though. They're open on all the social medias. No, but that's--you know, to your first point, it's so interesting how, like--so as kind of, like, a fashion point, like, if you notice, like, there's--there's enough clothes out here to curate a bunch of different looks. Like, if you want to be, like, hobo chic, right, you could get, like, some really form-fitting--Ade: I'm trying to--I'm trying to really walk away from the hobo chic look, because I thought that was what I was doing. Upon further reflection, it's just--it's further towards the hobo end of the spectrum than the chic, so we're just gonna let that dream go.Zach: Got you, got you. 'Cause I was gonna say, like--and I don't know, like, what your preference is, but, like--you know, 'cause you could wear, like, some fitted--not fitted, but, like, nicely-fitting sweatpants, right? You could wear some nicely-fitting sweatpants.Ade: You're right, you're right. Look, if there are any listeners who are designers, who have an eye for fashion, hit your girl up, because I am confused. Okay? Okay.Zach: [laughs] And then [inaudible], that's also great. And then the five [inaudible] with these articles--you're gonna share the articles with me.Ade: Ooh, bet. I like that, yes. We can do that.Zach: Yeah, share the articles with me, 'cause I love--I love reading a good article. I think it's easier to read than reading a whole book. It's, like, typically one subject. It's not clearly as long, but I love articles, so yeah, please. I'd love to check out what you got going on. Then AfroTech of course, that's super dope.Ade: Yeah, yeah. I'm really ready.Zach: Okay. Now, look, I think--I know those are our resolutions. Before we get out of here though, what was the best thing you ate over the holiday break? Ade: Ooh. Oh, Lord. Jesus. I just want to let everybody know about the greatness of my girlfriend's shrimp and grits. So on New Year's Day, she made shrimp and grits, I made rum cheesecake-stuffed French toast, and we lived our best lives. Do you have actually--before we move forward, do you do the pork chop, collard greens, and black-eyed peas ritual?Zach: So I don't--it's not, like, a super traditional thing. Like, we don't do it every year, but I definitely have had it, like, multiple times in my life for New Year's. And, you know, outside of New Year's, but yeah. Ade: Yeah. So I did that as well.Zach: Oh, yeah. That's good.Ade: So for those of you who don't know, some African-American families, some black families, have a tradition wherein in the New Year they eat a pork chop or a pork product of some sort, black-eyed peas, collard greens, and some will throw in cornbread. And I made all of it. I don't eat pork obviously, but she enjoyed it. She seemed to like her plate, so that was great. And what else did we eat this break? We didn't spend a whole ton of time cooking a whole lot, but cooking is my favorite thing. I made a really dope burger for us both. It was--I don't know. I can't wait to cook for you honestly. I want you to come here so that I can feed you, and I'm honestly probably not gonna help your goals of losing weight, but the important part is that the food tastes good.Zach: No, I'm excited. I'll just have to--I'll just do a bunch of pre-workouts, you know what I mean? And post-workouts. It's all good.Ade: See? Yeah, there you go. There you go. And you might have to do two-a-days honestly, but--Zach: Wow, okay. Appreciate the honesty. So what else? So we talked about food. We talked about--we talked about our resolutions. Hm. Ade, what are you most excited about in 2019?Ade: I am most excited about leveling up. I think every new year is an opportunity to excel, and again, this is part of why I kind of count my new year at my birthday as opposed to at the calendar date, but it's a new year to kind of show the little person that you once were how dope everything could be, how dope you could be, how dope life could be, how dope you could make life be for those around you, and part of that is in wanting to wake up every day and crush it. And I don't mean to sound like we're in a huddle and I'm giving you a pep talk, but I think it's exciting when you're able to look your fears in the face, or look a whole new year in the face, and be like, "Yeah, I'm comin' for you." I was gonna say, "I'm coming for that" something else, but I don't think we're quite that explicit on this show.Zach: No, we're not that explicit. That's funny though.Ade: Okay. [laughs] Ultimately, I am excited about being granted another opportunity to get it right and get it right and excel at it, you know? So what are you excited about?Zach: Well, you know, it's funny. I really feel like I'm excited about the same thing. Like, 2019, it's an exciting time because there's so much positive momentum that I'm hearing from last year. Relationships made, some in-roads created with various things and people and projects, and of course Living Corporate. I'm really excited to continue that forward. We have a whole--[Lord say the same?]--we have another 12 months of this thing going on, you know, unless the earth ends, and so I'm excited about us just continuing forward. There's so much to do, especially when you talk about inclusion and diversity work. I feel like the whole field has just been blowing up the past few years, and it seems like every year, like, there's something new that comes along, some new, quote unquote, new piece of learning that everyone's gravitating towards, and I just think that, like, we're ripe in the season to be doing the work that we're doing. So I'm really, really excited about that. I'm excited about the content that's gonna be coming out of the Living Corporate platform. We have a writing team that we're very aggressively building up right now. We have some amazing guests that--you know, that you all will be hearing for Season 2. We just have a lot of stuff--we just have a lot of stuff cooking, and so I'm excited for us to grow, and then I'm really excited for our audience to see it and be a part of it and hopefully grow with us. I'm really excited about that.Ade: Yeah, that's amazing.Zach: Okay. Well, I guess that does it. I'm done. Do you have anything else, Ade?Ade: Yeah. So I just want to wish everybody a happy, safe New Year. I hope that, even if your year hasn't started on the highest note--if 2018 was not good to you, I pray that 2019 will, and I pray that, you know, this New Year is full of opportunities for you, and I hope that we are able to help foster a space that excites you and motivates you. That's it from me. Zach: Man, you always got the dope words. See, that's a great sign-off. [both laugh]Zach: That's a great sign-off. Yes, okay. Well, listen, y'all. You will be hearing more of us on the Living Corporate podcast later this month. This was just a New Year's hello kind of intermission type thing in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series. I hope that you all are listening to the series. I'm looking at the download numbers. Y'all are, but I need y'all to pick it up. That's right, I'm talking to you. Listen to the--listen to the show. Listen to the series. It's very good, and then make sure that you stay tuned, because we're gonna have more information about CBE Week as it comes up. So with that being said, my name is Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade. Both: Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with speaker, author, financial coach, and clinical psychologist Dr. Rosche Brown. She sits down with us to discuss her website, Doctor of Rethinking, and she shares some wisdom for young black professionals. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Rosche's website, Doctor of Rethinking: https://www.doctorofrethinking.com/Find out more about CBE/CBE Week! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, everybody? It's Ade, and listen, we're--Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, like some of you may know. Coalition of Black Excellence is a non-profit organization based in California, and we're bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, which is an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This special series is one wherein we'll spotlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today we have with us Dr. Rosche Brown. Dr. Rosche Brown is a PsyD--I don't know too many of those. Congratulations on your awesome.Rosche: Oh, thank you.Ade: And a licensed clinical psychologist based out in California. Thank you so much for joining us today.Rosche: Thank you for having me.Ade: Most certainly, most certainly. So like I mentioned before, we're just gonna have a conversation. We're great fans of mental health, mental wellness, on this show, and it's so great to meet and speak to other proponents who are not just, you know, talking the talk, they're walking the walk in a lot of ways. What brought you to becoming a mental health professional?Rosche: So I became a mental health professional mainly because of my background and my childhood.; There was a lot of dysfunction within, like, my family, and also my community, with violence and substance abuse, and, you know, lack of communication, as is always in most families, and so actually at a very young age, when I was about 14 years old, I actually decided that I wanted to be called a doctor, and I wanted to be able to help people. People were already telling me about their lives, and I was like, "I can do this." And so at a very young age, I had already placed in my mind that I was gonna become a doctor of some sort, either a (pediatrician or a psychologist?), so I began to figure out, you know, what the steps were to becoming a mental health professional, or either one of those professions actually. So I ended up going to Xavier University, which is an HBCU, so it's a historically black college, in New Orleans, and by going to that university, it was all about placing African-Americans into medical school, and so there was--like, that's when I really understood black excellence to a whole 'nother level, just being around so many people who were at the top of their classes that were actually there, and so I went through that process, and with my major being psychology/pre-med initially--I had enjoyed psychology, and actually from there continued to go into grad school instead of going the medical school route.Ade: That's amazing. For one, your tenacity--you were in school from 2001 to--to how long?Rosche: I graduated actually in 2009.Ade: Oh, my God.Rosche: Yeah. Well, it was a long time. You know, I understand that's a long time in school, but in the grand scheme of things, from, like, the way that my life was, I actually was done with my degree at 25 years old, which is very young, and I was--I had my doctorate. I had my Bachelor's, my Bachelor's and my doctorate by that point. Like, my 26th birthday was like, "Happy 26th birthday, Dr. Roche Brown."Ade: Wow, that's incredible.Rosche: Yeah, so it was awesome. I mean, so even though it took some time, I was so used to school that it was a lot easier compared to people who would take a break and then [inaudible].Ade: Right, yeah. You just went straight through. Yeah, that isn't easy. What are some of the biggest--I don't know, what were some of the biggest issues that you dealt with kind of pushing your way through school? I know you said from a young age you kind of made a decision about the path that you wanted, but did you ever come across any obstacles in your education? How'd that go for you?Rosche: Yes, I did. [laughs] So I went to school, you know, out of--I mean, in a whole other world, right? Like, going to New Orleans coming from California. So, you know, I did get a good group of people who were around me, and so that part was great. However, you know, like I said, I was pre-med initially, and one big challenge--which was kind of an interesting challenge that most people wouldn't think of--but one big challenge was mostly, like, the MCAT, which MCAT is the test that you take to get into medical school, and the part that was hard for me was actually kind of growing up in--you know, in the hood, in the community. I was so used to, more than anything, not having to--I didn't have to read that much in life. Like, (Pops?) would make me read. I wasn't a person who liked reading. Like, it was very, very difficult for me, and most people wouldn't think so 'cause I did well in school. It wasn't like it was so difficult where I couldn't excel, but it was difficult when it came down to the MCAT because it was all of those, like, reading comprehension tasks. You ever have, like, on SATs or anything like that? [inaudible], and they wanted me to comprehend, and I was like, "Oh, Lord. I got ADD. I know I do." Like, "I cannot focus for this long." It was, like, an 8-hour test, and I just couldn't--even when they were asking me certain questions that I could know the answer to, because the way in which they were asking it, it was very difficult for me. I took a lot of prep courses, and in the process of taking those prep courses, when they translated it for me, I was good to go. Like, when they translated it, I was like, "Oh, I know the answer to that," but I had difficulty with translating it on my own, if that makes sense.Ade: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense actually.Rosche: Yeah. So it was really hard for me to--so even when they were asking me about biology, any chemistry questions, physics questions, all of those had reading passages, and that's where I really struggled. And so I end up going through school doing pretty well. Like, my GPA was fine. I had, like, a 3.5 or more, so I was doing well, but I got to that place where it was time to, like, apply to medical school, and my MCAT scores were just not, like, really making the--making the cut, and a lot of it had to do with just really poor reading comprehension and the fact that I wasn't, like, in a school or--wasn't in kind of, like, a family environment in a household that really encouraged reading.Ade: Right, yeah. That makes a ton of sense, and I can absolutely see the repercussions. You mentioned that you struggle with a learning disorder. How does that affect--well, how did that affect your education generally, and how does it affect you now?Rosche: I don't know specifically if I have a learning disorder. It's never been diagnosed as a learning disorder at all, but it's a lot of--it's more about me attending to things. Like, I just don't stay long enough to pay attention to, you know, the words and everything for reading comprehension, and so it's always--and it probably was always a struggle throughout school, but I never noticed it until that point, and then currently with me being an entrepreneur and the aspects of being an entrepreneur, you really want to read as much as you can. You want to read Think And Grow Rich and How To Win Friends and Influence People, all of these, like, great books that are gonna just motivate you and inspire you to be better and push yourself. It's always a struggle for me to sit down and focus in order to even read those types of books because I--my mind goes all kind of different places. So I want the information in the book, but sitting down and having to read it can be very difficult. Even to this day, like, I still would say I dislike reading, even though (I don't often say that?), but I'ma make my book reports and everything. I'm just gonna make them love it. [laughs]Ade: I can totally get that. I get that. So what impact--just kind of pivot a bit and talk a little bit more about your career as a mental health care professional. What impact has, I guess, your background, coming from Oakland, going to this illustrious HBCU in Louisiana, what has that--how has that added to your practice? Rosche: It has added a lot, you know? When I first started in school, you know--considering that I was so young, right? I was 21, 22. Most people in my class were, like, in their 30s, and so I felt like I--felt like I was, like, an impostor. Like, "How did I get into grad school?" You know, "How did they accept me?" You know? And feeling like I just didn't have enough life experience initially in order to do the work that I was doing, so initially it was, like, a struggle just to be--to try to do therapy, but then after some time--I would say, like, after I graduated, maybe around 26, 27, coming into my own as just a woman in general and having had a lot more experience in it, I started realizing, like, my background of life experience actually was really helping me, because the places that I was working, I was working in, you know, urban communities. I was working in Richmond. I was working in Oakland. I was working in communities that were very [inaudible] the same community that I grew up in, and so I realized that the way to build rapport and the way to build connection was really by utilizing what I already knew, the stuff that was even outside of grad school. It was just knowing even just practical skills that I had learned on my own. I learned how to navigate certain worlds, you know? I learned how to even just--I guess you say code switch, but I learned how to navigate in the community, but I also learned how navigate when I was in professional settings, and because I was able to do that, it really worked very well for me to build the best relationships with my clients. And then also I served as a role model, even unintentionally, that you can be something better. So, like, even the idea of just striving for excellence, the way that I saw my clients was like, "You can [inaudible] a doctorate. No matter what." Like, "I see your skill, where you are right now and what family circumstances you come from. I have expectations of you to get a doctorate if that's what you desire." I don't have lower expectations like some of my--I would say my white counterparts would often sometimes feel. Just like, "At least they're coming." I'm like, "No, your expectations should be a lot higher for them."Ade: Right, right. I'm so glad you said that because I think--I've heard a lot of conversation around the danger of lowered expectations and how important it is to kind of expect better of yourself, and I imagine that it is much easier to do so when you are surrounded by people who are doing the same. Rosche: Yes, definitely.Ade: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.Rosche: No, no, no. Just definitely. I agree.Ade: Yeah. So tell us about--speak a little bit more about kind of your practice and how you--any suggestions that you might have for young professionals who are navigating their way and kind of noticing a decline in their mental wellness.Rosche: So I think you mentioned something really good on the last point of, like, just the level of surrounding yourself by good people. I think that's always the biggest thing, right? So I would say #1 - surround yourself with the right people. I have an--I have an acronym that I often talk to people about, and it's called Check Your Pace, and what it means is, like, you know--have you ever noticed, like, when you've been physically walking with someone, and that person maybe started walking slower, or maybe they're unhealthy, out of shape, and you find yourself kind of, like, slowing down your pace in order to stay in connection with them, and then vice versa, versus you end up going with somebody who's walking fast. They're super healthy, and you're like, "Oh, my God, I'm trying to keep up with you," and if we can physically do that, like, unconsciously take on the pace of the person that we're walking with in a physical way, we ultimately do that mentally and spiritually and socially and financially, right? That, you know, we'll take on just kind of the energy of the people that are around us without even paying attention that we're doing so. So I just believe that it's so important when we're in this--like, just levels of being professionals or wanting to strive for excellence, that we first, like--the first part of pace is P, [inaudible], check the people that you're around, right? Because you are the average of the five people that you're around the most, right? So you want to check "Where is their money like?" You know what I mean? "Where is their career?" Like, you know, "What kind of degrees do they have? What's happening around them?" It's gonna be a reflection on what's gonna ultimately happen with you, and then also I think when it comes down to people, you also want to check what's all the--I call the A, the A part of pace, is alignment. Like, who are you aligning yourself with? And alignment to me is more vertical, like, you know, who's doing better than you in your world? Significantly better than you. You want to make sure you're aligning with that person who's making good money. If you're, like, making $50,000, and you want to make six figures, you need to be around a six-figure earner, right? You're a six-figure earner and you want to make $250,000, you need to be around somebody who's making $250,000, because there's no way for me to get there if I'm not around somebody who's actually showing me the habits that's necessary, the skills that are necessary to get there, right? So I have to be, like, in alignment with somebody who's even doing better than me in certain areas. So I believe that that's another area. The C part of pace is choices, and so you want to check every single choice that you make, right? And I was just actually at specifically this thing--this lady named Renae Bluitt, she just did a documentary called "She Did That," and it was talking about black women entrepreneurs, and what came out in that a lot was the level of not--of self-care and not practicing self-care, you know? Having that, like, Superwoman type of complex. Like, "I can do it all. I can do all of everything," you know? Like, "I can do family life. I can be--I can do everything in my career and not even outsource it, and I'm taking on too much," right? And I know I've been there. I live in that space a little bit now still, right? Where I haven't really figured out a way to release all control over what's necessary in my business, but it's also--it's creating a level of stress, and I think that we're just so used--specifically within our community, I would say we're always so used to juggling so much. So the mental health thing, we need to learn how to take breaks. We need to learn how to, like, you know, do even just mindfulness breathing. All about mindfulness, and I often tell people, even if you think it's weird, start with just five deep breaths, you know? We should, like, have five deep breaths, like, into our nose, holding it and breathing out. In our community, we know how to, you know, breathe in and--well, not just in black communities, but all communities clearly because now it's legal. People know how to breathe in and hold, right? Like, that's part of something that they do, but there's a way to do that without needing a product or an assistant. You can actually just learn the power of just breathing in, like, life force, and then being able to, like, hold it and then breathe out just kind of the waste and toxins that are in our body and even just, you know, negativity, and be able to learn how to, like, you know--to think more clearly. Like, "What's my next move?" Versus us just kind of going and going and going. And so that's a level of--that's the C. So kind of checking your choices. Sorry, I'm all over the place, but that's a part of my checking your pace. The C part is just check your choices. What choices are you making, and are they making you get towards your goal or away from your goal? And are you taking care of yourself in that process? And the E part of pace is expectations. Like, what are you expecting from your life? Because whatever we expect in our lives we will manifest in our lives, things that we're expecting unconsciously or even consciously. We need to really pay attention. "What is happening? What am I bringing into my life?" You know, people call it law of attraction or whatever it may be, but, you know, what's always coming into my life that I dislike, and how am I on accident and unintentionally bringing it into my life?" So, like, kind of check your expectations.Ade: That is--I'd really love to, like, follow up with that so that we can have a quick write-up for our listeners, but that was a great framework for kind of understanding your mental health and taking charge of that. Thank you for sharing it. Is there anywhere that--do you have any material that we can follow up with [inaudible] or anything that you would like to share or plug?Rosche: Yeah. I mean, I guess people definitely can go to my website. My business name is Doctor of Rethinking, and so my website is DoctorOfRethinking.com, and that's D-O-C-T-O-R-O-F-R-E-T-H-I-N-K-I-N-G. So DoctorOfRethinking.com. So, you know, on there you can get information about, you know, how to, like--you know, doing, like, coaching with me, or doing, you know--it can be therapy as well. I'm in more state of more solution-focused levels where we kind of visit the past, but we don't stick in the past as much as what therapy does anymore. And then also I do financial coaching, because I've come to realize that there's definitely, like, a psychology to the way that people spend and save their money, and so you can also go on there and be able to get information around, like, the financial area and even setting up an appointment with me for us to, you know, maybe meet and check and get educated on finances, what should you do next with your finances, and see what kind of solutions that are out there that might be helpful.Ade: That's a great point. I know that for quite a few of the people in my circle, a lot of our stress is financial. Being, you know, kind of the first person in your family to be a professional or the first person in your family to "make it," as it were, is a burden. Like, it's a blessing, but it's also a burden in a lot of ways, and so just finding out ways to develop healthy relationships with your finances cuts out a bit of the stress that you experience, yeah.Rosche: I mean, I totally agree. I mean, when you're the first person in your family to even be making money, and everybody around you, right, never knew how to, like, manage theirs, then now you have a lot of it and you're mismanaging yours because you don't understand how to manage your money, right? And you may even have a lot of emotions tied to your money, and then you also have family expectations that are tied to the money, right? And how do you set boundaries that are correct? I'll give you, like, just kind of--it's a simple example, but when I was--I used to work with foster youth, and I used to work with them in the community, and my client, her mom was a substance abuser, and I had substance abusers within my family as well, and she had--she had just got her first job, right? And she was like, "My mom always asks me for my money. What do I do?" And, like, for me, I know, like, coming from the community, I couldn't just tell her, "Don't give her nothing." You know? It doesn't really work like that. It doesn't work in families to just say, "I'm giving you zero," but I do believe that you should have a budget in mind of what you're planning on or willing to give to your family, if that's--you know, 'cause that's kind of how it works. I mean, "I know that I'm gonna have to give them something, but if I don't pay attention to what I'm giving them, I'll give them too much," right? And so what I often--what I told her, and I think it's the same even as we get older, is I told her, like, you know, put your real money--like, if you have $100, you know, you might want to put $90 of it in one pocket and then the $10 in the other pocket, and then when your mom says, "Oh, I need something," you pull out the 10 and say, "This is all I have," so hopefully she'll only want to take 5. [inaudible] you pulling out the 90, she'll need all 90, you know? Because she'll think that you're in overflow, and I feel like that's the same type of concept that even as we get older and we start to have more money that you have an idea of what I'm willing to pull out for my family so they don't end up taking my all and I'm finding myself in debt and, you know, poor credit and all this kind of stuff because I'm always bailing them out, right? And I'm ultimately bailing out irresponsibility. I'm never really teaching them to the skills to be better. I'm just--they're irresponsible, and I'm just gonna keep on helping their irresponsibility, and they're gonna always need me, right? So I need to figure out, like, what's the best way that I could, you know, bless them and, you know, all of that, but also make sure that I'm still doing what's right for me and my future.Ade: Right. That was perfect. Thank you so much for sharing that. We've kind of reaching the end of our planned conversation for today, but if there's anything else, any other wisdom that you'd like to share for young black professionals who are just kind of figuring it out on our own?Rosche: Yeah. I mean, it's--it's a process is all I would say, and I feel like every single step of the way, you know, you've just got to get help. You've got to get support when you need to. I recently--this is my own personal journey. I've been saying that you need to break up with your old self, and you have to break up with your old self, like, daily. Like, you know? And so I would say, like--so for me I feel like there's always--there's a part of me that's kind of holding me back at times, and it can be based on whatever - your personal experience, your child experience, backgrounds and everything like that, but some things are always holding you back, and so you have to kind of get to a place where, like, "Hm, how do I break up with that part of myself that's not really, like, serving me anymore," you know? Maybe it served me when I was younger, but it's not serving me now, and I need to really think about that a little bit. [inaudible]. Like, how do I--like, how do I go through the process of breaking up with myself and moving into my new, better, excellent self? Like an upgrade to myself, on a regular basis, and it could be simple things. It could be breaking up with, like, self-doubt, right? It could be breaking up with, like, your fears, breaking up with insecurities, you know, breaking up with poor habits, a lack of discipline. You know, all of those things, 'cause those things are really holding you back from your greatness. And like I said, I notice it in myself, right? And though other people outside of me can be like, "Oh, you're awesome, you're doing this, you're killing the game," but you know what you're capable of, right? And so sometimes you know that there's more that you could--that you can pull forth and you're not pulling it forth, and so you kind of have to find time to just, like, "Oh, I got to break up with this part." Like, when I lack discipline, when I don't want to wake up, when I want to be a little lazy, like, "No, get up. You have to do this," because, like, there's a better you that's out there, and the world is gonna miss out on that person if you don't--you know, don't get out of your own way basically.Ade: Right. Yeah, that was amazing to hear, and I'm probably gonna right down "break up with yourself" on some Post-it notes and put them in my workspace. For one, it's important to know that you're not the only one having certain experiences, right? So when you said that there are things that have served you in the past that no longer apply or no longer fit into this new world you're in, I can't tell you how hard I relate to that, and even further, that there are people overcoming those circumstances, you know, that that path has been walked before, is good to know, good to hear, and very, very useful. Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Brown, for joining us, for spending time with us today and for sharing your wisdom. It's been helpful in a ton of ways, and I just wanted to know if you have any Favorite Things or any shout-outs, anything that you'd like to share with our listeners before we go.Rosche: I don't know. Just continue--I often say, like, you know, "Don't be ordinary when you can throw some extra on it," you know? Ade: That is so cool. I love that.Rosche: So I'm all about "throw some extra on it," so what is that little extra that you need to do? I have no idea what I'm gonna be talking about specifically during the CBE Week, so maybe some of these same concepts might come up again. Don't be mad at me. You might need it again though at that point, but just I'm all like--we always have to do a little extra, so go ahead and put some extra out there and be, like, the best you that you were designed and destined to be.Ade: That's awesome, thank you. All right, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast, everybody. Do make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Ade, and you've been listening to Dr. Brown. Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with the founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS Kiwoba Allaire. Kiwoba sits down with us to discuss her exciting non-profit and its commitment to advancing young girls of color in STEM. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Donate to GIRL STEM STARS today! http://www.girlstemstars.org/donate-todayFind out more about CBE/CBE Week! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we will spotlight movers and shakers and leaders who will be speakers during CBE Week, and today, we have Kiwoba Allaire.Kiwoba: Hi, everyone.Zach: Kiwoba Allaire is the founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS and an executive business partner at Google. She is inspired and dedicated to helping young girls build successful futures in the tech industry. Kiwoba sits on local non-profit boards for the United Way, the Sheriff's Activities League, The Family Network, and Ronnie Lott's All Stars Helping Kids. Among her many accolades, Allaire was named one of the top 50 mufti-cultural leaders in technology by the Coalition Diversity Council, Women Worth Watching by Profiles in Diversity Journal, recipient of the Sistahs Rock Beyond the Limits Award, San Francisco Business Times’ Most Influential Woman, Forever Influential Woman, and Silicon Valley Business Times’ Most Influential Woman. Now, listen, y'all. We typically have air horns. We're gonna drop the air horns right here. She got all the badges. She's certified, y'all. She is here. Welcome to the show, Kiwoba. How are you doing?Kiwoba: Fantastic. Glad that the fires have subsided. God sent some rain, and we have blue skies. It's nice to be in California today, to say the least, you know?Zach: Absolutely. Well, no, definitely happy that you are--you and yours are safe and sound. So I know I gave our audience your profile in our intro, but do you have anything else you'd like for us to know about you?Kiwoba: I'm from San Francisco, born and raised, and I'm married. I have a wonderful husband named Patrick, and I have a little boy who's turning 5 next month, Christophe, and they are the love of my life. I have a, you know, great family. I'm blessed to be alive, you know? You'll know why when I say it--when I tell you later, but I am very grateful to be healthy and alive.Zach: Absolutely. You know, what do you--you know, we're gonna talk about Girl STEM Stars today and your background at Google and the work that you've done within your organization as well as your job and your career. What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to STEM?Kiwoba: I would say that there's no room for creativity in the STEM fields. There are creative STEM careers, such as working in virtual reality, Pixar, making movies, or music data journalists or NASA, Spotify, Electronic Arts. There are even fun activities that I like to do myself, which is, like, paragliding and scuba diving. When I'm flying in the air with my husband, there's a lot of STEM. Scuba diving? There's a lot of STEM on my back, keeping me alive under 100 feet of water, underwater, and I generally don't see people that look like myself doing any of these activities, you know? It's the same with, like, golf. I mean, look, there's only one--we have one really highlighted person of color, black man, playing golf, and there's a lot of STEM when it comes to golf when you think about it. You know, just--there's a lot of fun activities that I just don't see people that look like myself doing, and I like to highlight that to the girls at GIRL STEM STARS.Zach: No, that's so true, and I will say that for me, as someone who doesn't really have a STEM background, it is easy to think about STEM and say, "Okay, well, it's just Xs and Os, 1s and 0s." Very binary, right? Kiwoba: It's everything we do.Zach: Right.Kiwoba: Yeah, it's everything we do. Zach: Absolutely, and when you talk about it--even, you know, in just, like, makeup. Makeup. You need deodorant, and I'm just looking--and the reason I said makeup, I'm looking--I'm in my bedroom right now, and I'm looking at my wife's nightstand, and I see deodorant--and I see deodorant on my--you know, just cologne. You know, print design. Just all types of things that it's integral to. So what impact, to your point around not seeing a lot of us in the spaces that you engage for--that you engage recreationally, what impact do you believe you are making when black and brown girls see a black woman featured so prominently in STEM, in the STEM field?Kiwoba: Huge impact. You know, I've been on both sides of it. You know, when I worked at an AI--artificial intelligence--company, tech company, called Rocket Fuel, I was the director of global giving, so we wrote a lot of checks, but I--like, thinking, you know, we need to do more than just write checks to charities. We need to actually--me, as the only black woman at the company at the time, I need to be able to lift girls up, not just give hand-outs. So in the position that I was in there, you know, I was the only black female executive, and I had the opportunity to bring children to our campus. Gorgeous campus, you know? It had a big gym and Olympic swim pool, rock climbing wall, the whole nine yards, and a cafeteria. Great lawns. And the kids would come and they're like, "Wow. What do I have to learn to work in a place like this?" Or when I bring them to NASA. Because of, you know, my position in the community, I have people that reach out to me from NASA, from, you know, Google in the past, and Microsoft, Yahoo. They reach out to me and say, "Hey, we want your girls to come." We bring them--we've had a relationship with NASA for the last five years, and some of the parents and the mothers will come as chaperones, and they start to cry. They're like, "Oh, my God. I didn't know anything like this existed." So being able to be in a position to lift girls up into what it looks like to work at a STEM--at a tech company, it blows their minds. Literally. I could imagine--I remember when we took them to Yahoo, and I had a bus to pick them up. Took them out to--I wanted to kind of give them a cultural experience. I took them out to dim sum. They loved it. And, you know, keep in mind, these girls are coming from either homeless shelters or they're coming from deep, deep in the unrepresented communities where, you know, some of the girls are--they live in a flat, an apartment, with 10 other people, and one bathroom, one bedroom, you know? Some of the girls are from very violent neighborhoods, right? So for them--you know, some of the parents are incarcerated. I remember one of the girls who was on the bus got a call from her father, who was in jail, in prison. So just getting them out of their community, one, giving them a good meal, and then I've got them now, or--[inaudible] I've got their attention, and then, you know, to step foot onto, like, the Yahoo campus. They literally all went, "*gasps*". Like, "This must be what Disney Land must look like." I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, it is," you know? And then they're like, "Ooh, look, there's some cute Asian boys over there." [inaudible]. And, you know, they come inside to the lobby and they see all the gadgets, and they're given gift bags and t-shirts, and they're like, "Okay, I'll make sure to give this t-shirt back at the end of the day." I'm like, "No, sweetie. That's for you." They're like, "*gasps* This new t-shirt is for me?" 'Cause some of these girls haven't had a new piece of anything all of their lives, right? And then when we get the ERGs, which is--Zach: Employee resource groups?Zach: Employee resource groups, exactly. When we get, like, the black networks and, you know, all the females--the female engineers coming, or I have--when we're at NASA, I have the black female rocket scientists come and speak to them. They're just like, "*gasps* Oh, my God." You know? When we're on the bus, I'll ask them "What do you want to be like when you grow up," you know? And they're like, "Ooh, I want to be like Beyonce," or I want to be, you know, "a dancer in a video," and at the end of the day they'll be like, "Ooh, I want to be like that pretty black rocket scientist. I want to be like her." I've had congresswoman Jackie Speier come, and I think that's actually one of your questions, so I'll go ahead and let you ask it.Zach: [laughs] Well, first of all, this is great, and we don't have to have--we can freestyle it too, but this is good. I'm curious, really kind of talking about the program a little bit more, can you give us the origin story? Like, what was the motivation behind it? And where in you building GIRL STEM STARS did you realize how big of an impact it was making?Kiwoba: Okay, so I'll start with the first question. And, you know, I'm Christian, so it's okay, right?Zach: Absolutely, yeah. Go ahead.Kiwoba: Okay, great. Okay. So I--GIRL STEM STARS was born very organically. So I had to have an emergency surgery, and after that surgery I was told everything was fine, and two weeks later everything was not. I wound up passed out on my floor in our home, and my husband had to rush me to the emergency room, and all I remember them telling me was that "Call your family," and I'm like, "Why?" And they said, "Call your family, because your white blood cell count is off the charts." I don't remember anything after that but my husband telling me, after it's all said and done, that I had three absesces in my abdomen, and they had to do an emergency surgery to get them out. Supposedly, I woke up after all the surgery. I was in a normal room for two weeks, and I was holding court. I had my computer on my food tray, and I was having people come in from work and working, right? And I guess I was late working. It was, like, 3 in the morning, I was told, and I was talking to a nurse, and the next thing you know, all of my major body functions crashed at the same time. My heart, my liver, my lungs, my kidneys, everything crashed and, you know, they sent the crash cart, and my husband said they called him at 3 o'clock in the morning and said, "We have induced your wife into a coma because she's dying," and I was in a coma for about three--a little more than three weeks, and they figured out finally what was wrong with me. I had--we had some help. God sent--at the last moment, God sent some--all of the chiefs of surgery, the chief of pulmonary, some guy from Stanford, and then they finally figured out what was going on, and I was septic, and they had, like--had me on, like 10 IVs, and I was all, you know, needles everywhere, hoses and wires. So when I came out of it, my aunt--I was in ICU for over a month. When I finally got home, I couldn't walk. I had lost 50 pounds of body mass, and I'm a thin woman, so I couldn't afford to lose it. So I couldn't walk. Everybody carried me up three flights of stairs in our home and put me into bed, and my aunt came and visited me, and she's my prayer warrior. She's amazing, Auntie [inaudible], and she said, "Honey, you know that God sent his [inaudible] angels to save you, to keep you," 'cause my doctor said that I nearly died. I was 5 minutes from death three times. She says, you know, "That is God working hard. Those angels are--they're warring over you," and she said, "The devil tried to take you out, but I'm telling you right now that you were saved not to go back and work at that tech company--yes, you know, do your job, but you were saved for a greater purpose than just working at a tech company. You need to think and pray about what that greater purpose is, because you have a greater purpose on this earth." And I said okay, and I believed her, you know, after, you know, my cardiologist. The fact that I had a cardiologist was crazy because, you know, I was, like, a gym rat. I had a trainer. I was all [inaudible] up, you know, and, you know, for my cardiologist--she was an Asian lady that stood halfway up me, right? And she's screaming at me like, "You must take your medicine! Do you realize you were 5 minutes from death three times?" I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'll take the heart pills."Zach: Oh, my goodness gracious.Kiwoba: So yeah. I was intubated. You know, they had a tube down my throat for breathing and all of that. I was out out. So when I was home, you know, I was home for about three months, and I thought about, you know, "What is this greater purpose that I would--that I was saved for?" And I started to think about what bugs me the most, and then I realized, you know, I used to complain to HR and recruiting, "Please start hiring people that look like me. Stop hiring people that look like you." And, you know, being the only black woman there, I mean, it started to get kind of creepy, you know? I'm married to a Frenchman, a Caucasian guy, and, you know, if I didn't go to--if I didn't go to church or my parents' house, I didn't see anybody that looked like myself then, you know? Our [cert?] wasn't around then, you know? We live in--we live in an Asian neighborhood, so it's like, you know, "When do I get to see anyone that looks like me?" Right?Zach: Sure, yeah.Kiwoba: So then I realized, "Hey, instead of complaining about the situation, be the change you want to see," and I picked up the phone from my recovery bed and called LegalZoom and said, "I want to start a non-profit that advances girls of color in STEM," and--at first I said black girls, but then I--like, let's be a little more inclusive. Girls of color from underrepresented communities, and that's how GIRL STEM STARS was born, you know? It took me nearly dying to realize I had a greater purpose in me, and that greater purpose was to have an impact on the young girls in my community, and--you know, my bigger vision is to take it globally. Zach: So what was the moment, or did you have a specific moment in building GIRL STEM STARS, where you saw the impact and you realized how global and how major this could be?Kiwoba: Yes. When I was at Rocket Fuel, I--you know, the program was growing pretty, pretty big, and I had 100 girls, mostly black girls, but we had, you know, Pan-Pacific girls we had Pan-Asian girls. We also had Latinas and such, and we had a room of 100 girls in the same t-shirt, GIRL STEM STARS t-shirt, and we had little goodie bags, and we fed them breakfast. I had a black female rocket scientist come in and speak to them, and I remember--she's gorgeous. Her name is Aisha, Aisha Bowe, and she's amazing. You should interview her one day, and she said, "How much money do you think I make?" And the girls are like, "I don't know, $5,000?" You know, 'cause [inaudible] where they're coming from, right?Zach: Sure. And they're kids, like, you know? Yeah.Kiwoba: "No, higher. Higher." "10,000?" "No." "50,000?" "No. Higher, higher." She says, "I make over $100,000 a year," and the girls fell out of their chairs. They're like, "*gasps* Whoa. Wow. You must be a millionaire," you know? And I have all of my speakers bring in their pictures from when they were the age of the girls, which is between 8-18, but I prefer pictures, like, from when they're, like, 10 or something in pigtails, you know, doing sports or whatever, and then show them now, like, in different countries and then in their home and whatever, and their families, so they can really relate and--you know, so she'll say, "This was me when I was a little girl in pigtails, and this is me now, standing next to a celebrity," or whatever it is, right? And the girls are just, like, going, "Wow. Wow," you know? And then she talks about the type of work that she does. I had another lady come in and talk about how she's looking for water on Mars, and the girls were like, "Wow." Then I had--you know you've got them hooked, right? And then I had congresswoman Jackie Speier come in, and she is a mature woman, and she's Caucasian, and, you know, they had--you know, she had her security guards and everyone come in, and, you know, we had--I had the girls line up and clap when she came in, and they were mumbling to themselves, "What's this old white lady gonna have to say [inaudible]?"Zach: [laughs] That's so funny because that's so, like, true. That's so black. That's such an honest--[laughs]Kiwoba: And Jackie's my friend, right? And she's spoken for me many times, and I know she heard them, and she's like, "Uh-huh." "Okay." And I know I heard them. So Jackie and I are looking at each other and, you know, we wink at each other. So we get all the girls to sit down, and I don't remember if Jackie showed a picture of herself young. I don't remember, but she started off--and, you know, I introduced her, "Congresswoman Jackie Speier!" And she gets up there and she looks at them and she gets--everyone's quiet. She's quiet. She waits for the moment, and she goes--and she pumps her--she beats her chest, and she goes "I got shot up five times, left for dead overnight, nearly died," and they're like, "Ooh, here she comes. Okay. Okay. Okay." Then she said, "Then I got married, I got pregnant, and my husband got run over by a car on his bicycle at Golden Gate Park," and they were like, "Oh! Oh! Oh!" And they're like, "Okay." She got their attention. They're all at the tip of their chairs. She goes, "Now I'm gonna talk to you about adversity. Now I'm gonna tell you how I need to know STEM to run this constituency. I am a boss," and then she ends it with a picture of her and President Obama. The girls jump out of their chair and they're like, "Oh! Oh, man! Oh, man!" And I'm like, "Oh, my God." I had goosebumps going up my arms, and--so then, you know, at the end of the day--they all had little notebooks, and at the end of the day--and Jackie spoke forever. First, you know, her people were telling me, "Okay, you know, she's only got 30 minutes, okay?" "Only 30 minutes [inaudible]," and they were, like, frustrated. They were so frustrated. They were all spinning around in the hallway going, "What are we gonna do? [inaudible]." She was in her moment. She was in her element, right? So at the end I said, "Okay, now you told me what you want to be when you grow up. You wanted to be like Beyonce. You wanted to be, you know, a veterinarian so you can play with puppies, or you wanted to be a dancer in a music video. Now what do you want to be?" They're like, "I want to be like that badass congresswoman. Can I get her autograph?" They all run up, and they get in line to get an autograph from the badass congresswoman and take pictures with her and do selfies with her. We have just created a new STEM hero and icon in their lives. That's when I knew we were making an impact.Zach: So of course all of this is amazing, and really--in alignment with the story you just shared as well as when I'm looking at your content on your website--what I'm noticing, and what I'm really excited about, when I look at GIRL STEM STARS is that there is a clear effort and intention around making STEM practical and available for the girls that you're trying to reach, and I think for me coming up, when I thought about STEM, I would think about being, like, a scientist, or being some type of engineer. For me, those things were, like, as far away as being, like, an astronaut. Right? I was like, "Okay, how do I even do that?" When I would think about some of the math and things behind, it just seemed so far away, and I think, again, one thing kind of talking about the program, you all, you have these camps that I believe, again, kind of bring STEM to life and kind of bring it up close for the girls, and so I'm curious, do you have a favorite camp? Do any kind of stick out to you or anything of that nature?Kiwoba: Yes, NASA. NASA is one of the most mind-blowing camps that we have. The parents, you know, they fight to get on that list. We've been doing STEM camps with NASA for the last five years, and we're grateful to be invited every year, and we will get a busload of girls, 50 girls, every year. They're all from underrepresented communities, and some of the mothers to chaperone, and when we roll into NASA, we stop at the big front gate, and one of the engineers will get on, the one that invites us every year. He will give us a driving tour of NASA, and the girls are just--their faces and noses are pressed to the windows going, "Wow. Wow. This looks like a movie set, like a sci-fi movie," you know? They're all just blown away, and some of the--like, the mothers crying going, "I never knew anything like this even existed in the Bay Area." And then we will go to a big conference area, and we will meet the interns, the summer interns, and we usually have our teenagers do this camp, and it's all day from 7:30 in the morning until about 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.Zach: Wow.Kiwoba: Yeah, and at first, you know, they're on the bus, and they're all tired, and I ask the same question: "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I tell you, Beyonce is famous. I mean, they always say Beyonce.Zach: She is beloved though, yeah.Kiwoba: I'm waiting to hear, like, Nicki Minaj. I don't know.Zach: Oh, no, no. I think Beyonce has--she has Nicki beat by a good mile or so.Kiwoba: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] So anyway, that's what they're saying on the bus, and I've got video of it too, you know? So when we get there, they all get into the conference room, we feed them breakfast, and they're--you know, they're tired. They're not used to being, you know, up that early in the morning, especially when they do these on Saturdays, you know? And I tell them, you know, you should congratulate yourselves, 'cause, you know, you're investing in your future, you know? You could be home like the other kids, watching cartoons and eating cereal, you know? You're here, you know, investing your future. And your parents, you know, thank you. And then a beautiful black woman with braids down her back comes in with a NASA jacket on, and they're all like, "Ooh." "She's pretty," you know? And she'll say, you know, "Hi, I'm Dr. Wendy, and I am a rocket scientist here at NASA," and they're like, "Ooh!" They're like, "Okay," and then the interns are all in their teens. They're, like, 16, 17, 18 years old, so the teenagers are seeing--will go from station to station. We probably hit by five different departments in NASA, and we also do breakout sessions, and we also [inaudible], and there was an engineer, a rocket scientist, that would take us--give us a tour, and we'd go around to these different locations. One could be drone testing. Another is a simulated space ship, where we can actually go in and see what it looks like to live in a space ship and touch things and hear what the interns are doing. They're creating little robots that fly in the air and bring tools to the astronauts. I mean, wow. Just amazing stuff, right? And there's other kids that are, you know, also working with rocket scientists to find water on Mars. That's a really big thing right now. Then we'll have a big--they host a big lunch, a big barbecue lunch, with a DJ, and the girls get out, and they dance, and they get--the black engineer group at NASA will come, and they'll dance with them, and they'll get to talk and get mentored by the black females at NASA, and at the end of the day of course, after Dr. Wendy will speak to us again and show videos, I'll say, "Okay, what do you want to be like when you grow up?" "I want to be like Dr. Wendy! I want to be like those other black women we were dancing with!" So I want them to have a real experience with these black female engineers and rocket scientists where they eat with them, they eat at NASA, they dance with people, they get to hear what they do, the type of work that they do, how they got to work they got to. So they're completely immersed in the environment, and, you know, it's like, "I did NASA." It's, like, you know, a major field trip to another country, to another world, really. Another world, because, you know, from their little perspective where they're coming from--some of these girls, like I mentioned before, you know, a flat or a homeless shelter--a flat with 10 people or a homeless shelter. This is--this is mind-blowing, and you see their little minds just go pop, and I'm like, "Yes, we got them." [laughs] Yeah, it's cool. It's really cool.Zach: It's easy to underestimate the value or the impact that that--outside looking in, what that has on a child. I remember for me, STEM wasn't really my background, Kiwoba, but it was music, and so for me, in middle school and high school, you know, I was one of the--one of the better players in Dallas, and I actually played in the Greater Dallas Youth Orchestra, and I was--Kiwoba: Very cool.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so I was able to play with the orchestra. I was able to play at the [Meyerson?], which is, like, this big concert hall in Dallas, and it was great, and so--Kiwoba: That changes your world, right? That changes your whole world.Zach: Yeah. It changes your entire world, and then even like, you know, when I did some volunteer work where you have underrepresented kids come in who are--who come from poor backgrounds and they get to see your workplace, and they view the work site, and they see you. You know, they see somebody like me. I'm a young, black man, and I tell them I'm a manager or, you know, I just did this, that, and the third, and I travel every week. Just them seeing me and them asking, "So wait, you do this? You travel?" And it just blows--it changes their entire perspective, so that's incredible.Kiwoba: Yeah. I do the same thing. I bring the girls by my desk, you know, like at Google or, you know, wherever I was, at Rocket Fuel. I would give them a whole tour of the whole building, and they're looking around, and, like, "There's where the engineers work. See, there's accounting," and one of my friends--they hired another black woman, who was the head of accounting, and she'd come out in all her glory--you know, she wore beautiful clothes. She was stunning--she still is--and she's like, "So I'm the accounting part of this tech company," and, you know, "You have to know math to be able to be in accounting, but this is another way to get into a tech company," is through accounting. Then I would introduce them to the--you know, the head of marketing, who happened to be a female as well. Not of color. And the head of legal was female as well. The head of HR was female. So I would have them--we would go by each of their offices in their departments. She's like, "I'm the boss of this whole department." They're like, "*gasps* Wow." They can see the different departments in a tech company, right? So they meet, you know, everybody. The engineers, everyone. So that also allows them to see the different avenues into tech companies or into tech in general.Zach: You're right. Like, I think it is really is, when you think about STEM or when you hear the word STEM, rather, it's easy to go to, like, some scientist with a white lab coat and their sleeves rolled up, and they're, you know, pouring mixtures back and forth, and again, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's much more far-reaching than that. Kind of going back to the top of our discussion, STEM is in every single thing we do. There's some version--there's some version in STEM in literally every single thing that we touch or interact with or think about, and I think to your point around having them see the various avenues of how it all intersects is really important. So where can people learn more about GIRL STEM STARS? And how can they support? Like, what are the various avenues and options they have to actually support your organization?Kiwoba: So they can go to GIRLSTEMSTARS.org. That is, you know, where the Donate button is. We really need donations because these camps are not cheap, you know? And I don't charge. I don't charge the parents at all. I've had parents from Google and, you know, from different tech companies try and have their kids come to my camp, to pay. They're like, "I'll pay you $300," you know, "for my kid to go to your all-day camps," and I'm like, "No." This is for kids that can't afford to go to fancy camps, right? Their parents can't afford to. So we want to continue to make the camps free for the girls, you know? That means paying for buses and food and all of that. T-shirts, you know? All day to keep a child all day long, you know? So donations are definitely how people can help. Please, please. Give monthly. A monthly donation has more impact than a one-time donation, but that's most definitely what we need to do.Zach: Well, so first of all, I don't want to--and I don't want to zoom past that part, because there's so many opportunities and things out there, but they're limited by economic barriers, right? Like, the fact that you're able to offer these programs for free. Not for a reduced cost, not for a discount, but for free to these families is so important, and it's one less excuse, you know? And it's a big deal when a parent gives up their child for a day, even if they're chaperoning them, to follow them--to allow them to go off from their direct care, and then to do that and then to ask them to give up something monetarily in a situation where they may not--they may not have the means to do so. So that's beautiful that you're able to do that, and we'll make sure to have the donation link in the show notes, and we'll direct folks to donate there. Now, this has been a great discussion, but before we go, I feel as if--I feel as if you have some more wisdom and some more jewels to share, so I'd like to ask if you have any parting words or shout-outs before we wrap up here.Kiwoba: I would say, you know, thank you, God, for saving my life, so that I can have this impact on girls around the world. Also, keep in mind that I'm trying to--GIRL STEM STARS isn't about getting girls just into tech companies, but we're also--you know, this is why our girls are from 8-18. We're also creating the future board members, the future decision-makers, the future entrepreneurs of the world, you know? And that--you know, we want to have our girls be in those higher seats that are making the decisions about the world, about, you know, starting their own tech companies maybe. Starting whatever. Being entrepreneurs, right? And we're trying to give them that entrepreneurial mindset that you are in control, you know? That these kids, they can make a decision to say, "Okay, I can watch cartoons in the morning, or I can go to a GIRL STEM STARS camp at NASA," right? So giving them the opportunity, picking them up with a bus, feeding them, doing this all day long with them, it literally changes their whole world. I've had parents constantly sending me emails going that one trip changed their whole daughter's perspective on life, and she's starting--you know, her grades are better. She knows that--she knows what she sees, you know? 'Cause we--a lot of the girls are regulars. Sometimes, you know, they're different, but for the most part, you know, when these girls to go to all of these different events, you know, Makers Faire, and to city hall, and be treated like absolute ladies, you know? We treat them like gold. We roll out the red carpet for them. That day will never--it will never leave them, you know? It changes their whole life, and we know that we've changed them in that one day and that they're looking for--they've seen and experienced a better future for themselves. Zach: Absolutely, and often it just needs that--takes that one spark to set off a whole new set of dreams, so that's incredible.Kiwoba: Exactly.Zach: Well, awesome. Look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Remember, this is a special series brought to you by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about the Coalition of Black Excellence and their CBE Week, look them up at CBEWeek.com. If you have a question that you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Kiwoba Allaire, founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS. Peace, y'all.Kiwoba: Goodbye. God bless you all.