Zach and Ade respond to a couple more listener letters. Keep sending them in, y'all! The topics discussed in this one include being pregnant at your job and finding yourself unable to verbally fit in with your coworkers.Connect with us on our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: You know what? Wait a minute. Why do we always do me first? What is that about? You never go, "Hey, y'all. It's Ade," and I go, "It's Zach." Like, we always--we always do it like that. What's up with that?Ade: I don't know if that's true. I feel like I have gone first. I don't know. 'Cause I do the countdown, so I expect that you do the--Zach: Well, there you go.Ade: Yeah, I just--Zach: I don't know. I just feel like--I feel like if we're gonna dismantle patriarchy, like, we need to dismantle it at every--you know what I'm saying, every corner.Ade: I feel like you're just using that as an excuse to not go first.Zach: [laughs] Maybe it's 'cause--so when I walk around with people, like my wife, with women at my job, I open the door, and then I push for--I encourage for them to go first, and I kind of feel like it just doesn't rub me right 'cause--it rubs me wrong rather, because it's like I feel like I'm walking through the door first. Anyway, it's okay. Listen, y'all. You're listening to [inaudible]--Ade: Does anybody ever hold the door for you, Zach?Zach: You know what? My coworkers on my current project. They are--they hold the door open, and it's kind of awkward, and they go, "Yeah, that's right, Zach. I'm opening the door for you," and we laugh, and then I walk in the room. Ade: Wonderful. I was about to say I'd open the door for you.Zach: I believe that. I believe you would. I believe you would.Ade: Totally.Zach: Well, look for those listening in, you are listening to Zach and Ade on Living Corporate, and today we have--da-da-da-daaa--more listener letters. What's up?Ade: Sure do.Zach: So it's interesting. It was like--I feel like we've been asking for listener letters, and now they're coming in. Really excited about that. Please continue to send 'em in. We're gonna try to do at least two per episode, like, episodes that we do this, so--and we're trying to, like, churn through them, right, so we can get back to them, so that way y'all know that we're actually responding to y'all's notes. 'Cause y'all do be sending 'em in, and I feel bad--like, some of these we've been sitting on too long, but--[laughs] so I feel bad, so we're gonna start actually being a little bit more--I don't want to use the word aggressive--intentional, right, in getting these back to y'all. All right, well, go ahead. This first one I'm looking at, Ade--I'ma let you go ahead and ride on this one, and I may provide color commentary, but I feel like this is definitely a space that you would probably be better to speak in.Ade: I actually disagree. I think this is one that we should tag team, primarily because I have--I've never been in this dilemma before at least, so I don't know that I have the full range of context and experience, but I think it would be good to share this. Anyway, the subject of today's listener letter--it's called "Bun in the Oven." All right, let's go. It goes, "Hi, Zach and Ade. Thanks so much for this platform. I am dealing with a situation at work and I'm not certain what to do. I work in a relatively conservative area, and I'm pretty far from home. I've been in my industry for three years and in my current position for one. I'm used to working 60-80 hour weeks--whoo--at work, and I'm not alone in this. Most of my team tends to work long hours, but the pay is great and it's really rewarding work. Here's my problem - I recently discovered that I'm pregnant. I do not have a long-term partner, and I'm concerned about my ability to keep up with the pace at work and how my coworkers might react. What should I do here? Any advice welcome. Thanks again. Leah."Zach: Hm.Ade: All right.Zach: So now why do--what commentary or insight do you think I could add in this? I'm curious. What do you--how do you think I could--I could [laughs] provide--what value could I add to this conversation as a man? Like, you help me understand.Ade: I just--I feel as though, as someone who is more senior in their career, you might have more strategic ways of approaching this conversation than I might. You want to take a stab at it?Zach: Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. Of course I've been in a variety of situations. I work with folks all the time who get pregnant. I think what I've seen--I'm just gonna talk about what I've observed that I've seen go well is people just being really open about kind of what's going on if they are pregnant, utilizing their resources. So they talk to their leads, they talk to HR, they understand and, like, really explore their benefits, and then they just start making plans and saying, "Okay, well, look. You know, I'm pregnant, and this is gonna be--" "And I'm looking at my benefits so that I can go on leave. This is my work plan up 'til then." Talking, and, like, you know, just kind of being transparent with your leadership about, like, "Hey, because I'm pregnant, my work schedule may need--I need to adjust my work schedule in this way or that way." You talked about the fact that you're used to working 60-80 hour weeks. Like, those things may need to shift or change if possible, but again, I think it's--what I've seen is people who are really just open about it, because the last thing of course you want is stress. So the more things you can do to kind of destress the situation the better, and that's what I've seen--that's what I've seen work.Ade: That sounded like a lot. I don't know why you discounted yourself from the conversation and sharing your knowledge to begin with. Yeah, I just had to fact-check you right quick. Anyway... all right, so, Leah, first of all, thank you for writing in, and congratulations on this new journey on which you're about to embark. I think I would say, first and foremost, that you wrote about a couple of different things here, one that you're in a conservative area, two that you're far from home, three that you're working really, really long hours, and four that you're kind of doing this alone, and I would say that all the more reason to find your allies and your sponsors and your mentors at work and disclosing to them, as you feel comfortable, the situation you're in. Two would be that you don't concern yourself with keeping up with the pace at work. 60-80 hour weeks are great when you are not growing a whole other human being inside your body, but those are the circumstances in which you find yourself. So I don't think that it's wise to put the expectation upon yourself that you'll be able to keep up with 60-80 hour weeks. That's not even something that people who aren't pregnant want to do at a sustained pace for a very long time, let alone someone who's literally sharing resources with another human being. So don't put that pressure on yourself. Don't put that expectation on yourself. Definitely be realistic with what you can and cannot handle, and like Zach was saying earlier, start figuring out what your work plans are, what your contingencies are, and have honest conversations with your leadership about what it's gonna take from now 'til, you know, Baby Drop Day for you to continue being fulfilled and content in your career and also preparing for, again, this new part of your life that you're going to have to deal with. So Leah, the one thing that did concern me about this letter was that you--you mentioned that you were concerned about how your coworkers might react. I feel as though that is not something that should even pop up on your radar. I hope that you feel supported at work, and if you do not I think that it is--this would be the chief time to get some time on your--on the calendar with your HR person or with your allies or with your mentors and get a sense of what it means to split your time or to start removing some things from your plate, and it's OK to do that. It's OK to say, "Hey, I do not currently have the capacity for this at this time, and it's only gonna get--my plate is only gonna get fuller from henceforth, so how do we manage this in such a way to ensure I'm still having a fulfilling career and, you know, not being worked to death?" Leah, take care of yourself. Zach, is there anything else you'd like to add?Zach: You know, I think--the other piece is that you said that you're--you know, you're by yourself. Like, you're far away from home. So, you know, maybe there's an opportunity--and, again, every job is different. I know something that I was told, especially coming into the consulting space--and I don't know if you're consulting or not, but coming into consulting--I think it applies to just jobs in general, but it's like, "Hey, look, you don't get what you don't ask for," and so I wonder if there's any opportunity for you to work remotely on things, like, just for your whole working situation to change. I don't know the context of the role that you have at your job or, you know, how much of that is dependent on you being in the office, but, like, even if, like, a couple months, even before you take, you know, official leave for your baby, you could--you know, maybe there's an opportunity for you to work from home. Like, you know, there's other things. So I guess kind of going back to what I said at the beginning, which is, like, just being really transparent with the people that you trust, with your leadership, so that you can have a plan. I think that's part of it, is, like, being, like--just ask, like, you know, "What options are there for me?" I would also network within your business, right? I'm certain that there's other women at your job--well, let me not say I'm certain. Perhaps there are other--Ade: I was about to be like, "How certain are we?"Zach: "Are you certain?" But there may be other people at your job who have been pregnant and had children and had to navigate, so it's worth, like, networking and asking around as well. So that would be what I'd add, but nah, I think what you said is super spot-on. I agree. Ade: And sort of to pick up on that as well, if there are any employee resource groups at your firm, at your company, for women, I would certainly look into that. I just realized I didn't even, like, finish my train of thought with the whole mentors and et cetera, but also look into what support looks like after you give birth as well.Zach: Oh, that's a good point.Ade: Because again, you're going at this alone, so that means that you're going to have to figure out what childcare looks like, you're going to have to figure out--see, I don't even have a child, so I don't know--Zach: All the things?Ade: All the things. But postpartum care... shoot, I am ill-equipped for this conversation. But, you know, finding out what it means to be both a career woman and mom, that's a whole conversation in and of itself, a whole exploration process, and the more resources, the more conversations, then the more people you have around you who are able to support you in that exploration process, who are able to point you at the resources that you need and who are able to say, "Look, I don't know, but I am going to find out for you." That's the environment that you need--that's the support that you need, and I hope that you're gonna get that, and if you do not, I am hoping that you're able to find a space in which you can be both. And the other thing that I wanted to bring up--I read this post on Fishbowl. This just occurred to me. I read this post on Fishbowl a couple of weeks ago about this senior consultant who had just given birth and her team was already emailing her work to do, and she still has six weeks of leave left.Zach: Mm-mm. [disapprovingly]Ade: Don't ever feel pressured to take time away from your baby for your job, because your job will still be there, and should they ever find reason to fire you--and honestly, if you live in a state that doesn't require reason, then you're SOL anyway--I strongly advocate that you--when you do take time off work, be present entirely and let them figure out, right? No offense, but ABC Corporation will be just fine without you, and you're not gonna get the hours and the days and the weeks after you first give birth back just to just feel like yourself again, to bond with this new human, to breathe. You're not gonna be able to sleep for a little while, per my sister. So just being able to enjoy, step into the fullness of that experience... do not worry about the 60-80 hour weeks that are waiting on you or whatever it is that you left behind in your absence, because everybody else is getting paid for that. Like, they're getting paid to ensure that there is no lapse in the work that goes on, so I wouldn't worry about that.Zach: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point for everybody. I think a lot of times we can think that, like, if WE don't do something the whole world is gonna stop. It's like--it's a big company. Like, even if it's not a big company, you're not the CEO. Like, there's other people around. They get paid to help and be thoughtful and strategic on how to solve a problem. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's gonna be okay. It's navigable. Ade: Listen, just take a break. It's okay to say, "You know what? I'm a human being, and I have a life outside of this, and I'm not particularly interested in splitting my attention or my time with something that's not this. Like, this is the most important thing to me right now. You can keep the job."Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: It's okay to say that.Zach: It is. Okay. Well, Leah, congratulations as well. I apologize. I did not say that in my little initial response, but congratulations from the Living Corporate fam. Yearp.Ade: We should have a Living Corporate onesie made.Zach: Listen. Actually, I think that's a really cute idea. I just question, like, if we're--if we're big enough. But I would like to make one. If we get big enough and we start making, like, baby merch, we have--we have arrived.Ade: Officially made it. Mama, we made it.Zach: We have made it. We making baby merch? Not even just regular people. Baby merch. What? Anyway, one can only dream. The next letter comes from--oh, here we go--Jamal. Oh! ...I'm not hating on you. I'm not hating on Jamal.Ade: Why did you do that? Nope, now we're gonna--now we're gonna have to have a conversation, Zach.Zach: [laughs] It's just like--no, it's just funny, man. It's tough. It's tough out here, like, just the way that, you know, internalized depression is set up. Like, you know, even I see certain names and I'm like, "Oh, okay."Ade: I can't. We're gonna have to unpack that.Zach: We do. We need to talk about it. We need to talk about it in an episode about respectability politics, right? No, I'm just laughing at the name--I'm laughing at the name Jamal because it's just--it's so stereotypically black, and I love--Ade: In the context of the conversation that he's trying to have?Zach: And in the context of the conversation that he's trying to have. It's just funny. It's just all funny to me. Anyway, so look. Jamal, I'm not hating on your name. My name is Zachary. My mom named me that very strategically. I show up very well on resumes.Ade: You should also say your middle name.Zach: Sinclair.Ade: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] So I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.Ade: I just also want to say that that was the only, like, American name for, like, a very, very long time. Any time I ever thought about "If I ever have children, what would I name them?" That was the only, like--Zach: Zachary?!Ade: No, no, no. Sinclair. That was the only non-[Yoruba?] name that I ever thought of, and it was because of Upton Sinclair. Zach: Sinclair is a dope name though.Ade: It's a very beautiful name. And then somebody was like, "Okay, but then they'll nickname your child Sin, and--"Zach: That's true. Call him Sini.Ade: Even worse. Even worse.Zach: I know. It's just ridiculous.Ade: Thank you so much for ruining this name for me, Sinclair. All right, let's move forward.Zach: Nah, kids are so mean. Anyway, that's another subject for another time. So this letter is from Jamal, subject line: Finding the Right Words. Finding the Right Words. "LC fam, I'm a new hire, and my team is very casual. Like, they use slang and don't even talk--do not talk very proper at all. They use more slang than I do outside of work. Maybe I'm old-school, but I speak fairly properly at work, to the point where I'm noticing I'm alienating my team. They'll say things like, "Hey, loosen up," but I really don't know how--"Ade: [laughs]Zach: "But I don't really know how. I didn't even know it was a problem until I got here. What advice would you give me to help me adjust? Thanks. Jamal." Oh, Jamal.Ade: Jamal. Jamal.Zach: J!Ade: First of all, my apologies... I just jumped right into that. Zach, is it all right if I go first?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I am so sorry. I am not laughing at you, Jamal. I am tickled by the situation that you find yourself in. My apologies. I do not mean to be dismissive in which you find yourself. I am not minimizing your feelings. I just--I simply do find it humorous. OK. So Jamal, I want to know precisely what is said, you know? I don't--I do think that--and we've said this before on this podcast that--and Jamal, I'm assuming you're black 'cause I've never met a white Jamal, but--Zach: If we meet a white Jamal, he's coming on the show. I don't care what he does.Ade: If we meet a white Jamal?Zach: If there is a white Jamal--hey, if you're listening to this and you are white and your name is Jamal, email us and you will be on the show. I have never met a white Jamal. I've met a white Jerome. I've met a white Terrell.Ade: I have actually met a white Jerome. I used to date a white Jerome. Zach: Wow.Ade: That may have been too much information for this podcast. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: No. Oh, no. JJ, do not cut that.Ade: JJ. JJ.Zach: Was he a Kappa?Ade: Do me--oh, my God. We can discuss this offline. All right.Zach: I feel like--I feel like a white Jerome has a code shimmy. Ade: Can we--can we go?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: All right. Anyway, Jamal, again, I am so sorry. We are acting like plumfuls right now. First and foremost, again, thank you for writing in. Secondly, I feel like I need a little bit more context. What did it--what is it that makes you feel like you're alienating your team? Like, it's one thing for your team--I just have so many questions. One, I feel like there's a context necessary, right? If you work in an ad agency, the culture--or in a startup--the culture is not going to be as formal as if you worked in a bank, and that is not to say that you need to change the essence of who you are to fit into the context of your team, but I do think that it makes you more noticeable when you don't fit into the context of your team. Now, that said, there are fully ways that you can be who you are at work, not change an iota of who you are at work--see, you got me using--anyway, not changing the context of who you are, but also making more of an effort to be more accessible to your--to your team members. We've had this conversation before on an old episode where we were saying that people don't trust who they don't know. If you are inaccessible to your team members, it's harder for them to trust you, feel like they know you, go to bat for you in the same way that they would for other members of their team, regardless of how amazing you are. Like, I don't think that that is necessarily fair, because if you are a perfect coworker you just don't pop up at Happy Hours with the other coworkers simply because you don't drink. There's no reason why that should have an effect on your career trajectory. I do also think that there are other ways in which you can make people more comfortable with you without necessarily feeling out of place or like you're faking it. I think that you can--if you are a coffee drinker, you could invite people out for coffee. So they'll walk out for an afternoon coffee with you or coffee, or bring pictures of your family to put up in your workspace, or taking an interest in your coworkers, asking them questions about themselves so that you can listen to them use their slang and having a full conversation with them, because if that is not who you are, I wouldn't fake it. And I don't think you should have to in order to make anybody else comfortable. I do think that there are ways and strategies that you could employ to simply get to know your coworkers so that it's simply a part of who you are, Jamal, that you say, "I would not like to go to breakfast with you," instead of "Nah, I'm straight." You see what I'm saying? Does that make sense, Zach?Zach: It does make sense, and I do--I do think more context is needed, and I recognize, you know, you're not trying to get into all the details or whatever, but some--it's a challenge, especially, like--and I can really relate to this letter. That's why I was also kind of laughing, just because recently I've been getting feedback that I'm too--you know, that basically--not even too formal, but it's just like, "Okay, I'm getting lost in what you're saying, right?" And so what I have to challenge and what I have to question is how much of this is really me needing to adjust how I speak, because I'm almost 30 years old, and up 'til this point in my life I've been told that I'm a good communicator. I think that's one of the--one of my strengths. So how much of this is things I need to change? How much of this is, like, just personal style? You know, like, maybe what you're not used to? And then how much of this is just, like, you just maybe not being comfortable--like, maybe something about me makes you uncomfortable and there's, like, some unconscious biases there, right? Like, those are all--those are all things that are real, and, you know, when I think about--when I think about being at work and someone telling you to loosen up, it's like, okay, well, if you're communicating and kind of getting the message across, or if, you know, you're just saying what it is and they're still not really hearing you, then talking to someone you trust, right, outside of that team and being like, "Hey, look. Here's the feedback I've gotten. This is what I've been trying to do." You know, "What do you think?" Right? Like, getting some outside feedback I think is gonna be really important, because what you don't want to do is feel like you're having to--I think, like, to Ade's point, like, change your entire self. Like, you're trying to, like, rebuild yourself. Like, you're enough. Like, I imagine that you know how to put words together, so it might just be about making, like, some small tweaks and adjustments, but at the same time I think kind of trusting your gut as well and knowing who you are and then just kind of leaning into that. I think--the other point Ade made which I really like is, like, getting to know people and just kind of, like, building those relationships and then letting them see you, as comfortable as you are let them see you, but yeah. Like, that's what I would do, and then that way when they talk to you and you say, "Yes, I'd rather not," they don't go, "Oh, here you go again." Or maybe they do, but they've seen you, and they've seen you be consistent, so they know you're not putting on some type of, you know, air. That's my take.Ade: Right, and I do think that it's important that you separate who you are at work from who you are in general, and it's okay to not--it's okay to not want there to be an overlap. That's not to say that you have to hide yourself or lie or be unfriendly, and again, that's part of where this context that we're asking for comes in, because it's difficult to tell from this--from this letter whether the issue is that the coworkers don't feel as though they know you and that it comes out in them saying that you need to loosen up or that you are too straight-laced or if the issue is that you're not a culture fit for whatever reason. And I hate that phrase, "culture fit," because it's been used so frequently to exclude people of color, but again, some context is needed here, Jamal. I hope this conversation that we had helped, and if it did not, if you'd like to write in to further explain what's going on, we would love to have you, would love to hear some more from you, and if not, we hope that you get more comfortable, whether it is at this job or a next one. It's okay to be like, "You know what? I'm gonna take me and my suit and tie onto somewhere where we're respected." I think I'm perpetuating that "Break up with him."Zach: You are, you are. Ade: 'Cause I think I've said that about every single letter so far.Zach: You have, and I'm like, "Okay, Ade." I mean, everybody's not gonna just pack up and leave their job. I mean, you know, people do though. People leave. People find new jobs. I don't think this is what he's talking--I don't feel like this is the answer on this one though.Ade: No, I don't--I don't think that it is either. I am saying that it's OK if you feel like you don't want to and you want to kind of just pick up your things and go. The reason I say that is largely because you're a new hire, so I feel as though if they're trying to make you comfortable, singling you out is not the way to do that. And that may not be what they're doing. I fully admit that this letter's a little light on the details, et cetera. I'm just trying to address the full breadth of the experience that Jamal might be having. Since you're a new hire, it might be that they're trying to explain to you what the culture is without necessarily being the most obvious about it, because I know for a fact that I've, like--I've walked into a job in a full suit and the director was wearing jeans.Zach: Yeah, that happened to me recently. Like, I came to work and I was wearing, like, slacks and a blazer, and he was like, "Don't wear those slacks again." Like, it was super casual, you know what I'm saying? It was funny. And I got mad love for him too. He's funny. He's a nice guy. It was just super funny. And I wore a blazer. He wasn't super happy about the blazer, but the blazer has grown on him. I think he was like, "You have to take the slacks off." He was like, "I'ma kind of give you a little bit of a time about the blazer for a couple weeks, and then I'ma let you, but you gotta wear jeans." And so I got some--you know, I got some designer jeans. Anyway. We're on a tangent now, but anyway, I feel you. I feel you.Ade: Yeah, so I'm really honestly just trying to address the entire range of experience that might be going on here. It's entirely possible that they're wilin' and they need to relax and let you be who you are. It's entirely possible that they are trying to say, "Hey, you know what, a three-piece suit is not necessarily the way to go here," and they might also be saying that you're not a culture fit for whatever other reason. Either way, I would like for Jamal to feel comfortable in owning his experiences and in saying that, "Hey, I'm cool with this," or "Hey, I'm not cool with this," and either way, your life is yours, your career is yours, and you are able to make whatever decision you feel is necessary for your own growth and comfort.Zach: That's real. That's real. I gotta snap on that.Ade: Thank you, friend.Zach: You're welcome. You know, something interesting... we're saying these people's real names, and I wonder... should we not? Ade: Hm. You know what?Zach: We might need to do this whole thing over. I don't know.Ade: I feel like if they had wanted us to, like, bleep their names out or give them different names they'd have said so, but if you do write in and you prefer--and there are a bunch of Jamals out in the universe, so I don't--I don't expect--Zach: There's a lot of Jamals.Ade: Right? So if you do write in and you'd prefer that we do not say your actual names or the names with which you sign these letters--because these are just the names that signed the letters, so they may have given us fake names in the first place. Plot twist.Zach: That's real.Ade: But if you do prefer that we don't say your names, please let us know that, and we will do our best to find a repository of fake names to substitute.Zach: There we go. I like that. I like that cleanup. Thank you, Ade. It'd be so funny. What if, like, someone gave a fake name, we go, "You know, we don't really--" You know, "We're not gonna say this name," and then we give a fake name and the fake name is their actual name. Whoa. Ade: The universe really just needed you to say this with your chest then, because the odds of that--Zach: That's tough. That's tough tough.Ade: If you write in here, please note that I'm giving all of you [Yoruba?] names.Zach: Straight up. Okay, so--all Yoruba names, really?Ade: All of them.Zach: I like that.Ade: I mean, I might throw in an [?] name in there or an [?] name, but [?].Zach: Like Oshioke. That'd be dope. Ade: What? Oh, we're gonna have to coach you too.Zach: [laughs] I actually know an Oshioke. That's why that's so funny to me. Goodness gracious.Ade: It was just the way that you pronounced it. Zach: I know. No, I gotta do better. I need to grow. There's some opportunities for growth there.Ade: There are way too many Africans in your life for this to still be--Zach: There are so many. There are so many Africans. Shout-out to all my real Africans out there, but yeah. Okay. Well, look here. It's been--we got about 30 minutes? Okay, not doing too bad. Look, that's two listener letters. I feel like let's go ahead, let's do a Favorite Thing, you know what I'm saying, and then let's get on up out of here. How does that sound?Ade: All right, that sounds good.Zach: All right. What's your Favorite Thing? 'Cause I do have one.Ade: Okay, then you go ahead.Zach: All right, cool. So my Favorite Thing is actually this video, this music video, by this artist named Russ.Ade: [sighs] All right, and we're done. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, no. You don't like the video?Ade: I'm just being a hater. Go ahead.Zach: Oh, okay. I was about to say, this video was fire. So I opened up the video, 'cause I love music. For those who don't know, like, my background, before I changed my major, was music, and so I love music. Like, I'm really passionate about it, right? And so I'll listen to--I'll listen to really any genre. So anyway, I'm on YouTube like billions of others on this planet, and I open up a video and there's, like, this beautiful, I mean beautiful black woman, like, very, very dark, very dark-skinned, and I was like, "Man, this is incredible." And, like, the lighting was great, 'cause I'm also--like, I'm also really into photography and videography, so I'm looking at the lighting, I'm looking at the way--I'm just looking at, like, everything. Like, the color pallette. I'm like, "Wow, these are the prettiest black people." Like, on a--for this to be just a regular music video. This isn't, like, Black Panther. This is, like, just a music video. I was like, "Wow, the color--the lighting on the skin is so nice." So anyway, then the music starts playing, and then it's like--you know, it's an African song. Like, it's kind of African style. You help me, Ade, but it's--Ade: I'm gonna let you flounder for a few seconds.Zach: No, it's fire though. So anyway, then this random dude--I guess his name is Russ, I don't really know, so young people, help me out--this random dude, like, petite white man with very long hair is in, like, this really--Ade: Did you just call this grown man petite?Zach: I mean, he's like--he's only, like, 5'1". It doesn't matter. He's like--and he looks very out of place. He's wearing, like, a jersey with, like, baggy jeans, and, like, everybody else around him is, like, Nigerian or Cameroonian or, like, they are clearly, like, African, right? And they're all dancing, and, like, they look great, and he looks, like, super bummy, and the juxtaposition was really interesting, but it was a beautiful song.Ade: You just called this man bummy. You called this man bummy on his own music video? You called him petite and bummy on--are you sure this is your Favorite Thing?Zach: Everybody looks super--everybody looks so regal, but I like the fact that basically--to me, what I got from that was he was being himself, right? Like, I'm being myself. I'm chillin'. He also had, like, some--he also had some Nigerian cuisine references in his song, talking about "mix the jollof with the suya." I said, "Whaaat?" It was crazy. And so I just really enjoyed the video. I really liked the fact that you have, like, this really--apparently after I did some research on the Wikipedias--fairly [?]--on the Wikipedias. He's very popular, and, like, he really, like, centered--he centered black identity and experience in the song. And then the guy who sang with him, Davido... Davido? How do you say his name, Ade? Ade: I'm not doing this with you.Zach: He is cold! He snapped on this song. I said, "Yo, this is a fire song!" And so I sent it to Ade. I was like, "Yo, this is my Favorite Thing." Like, "The next time we talk about Favorite Things, I'm bringing this up." Yo, I loved the video.Ade: Do you know I completely forgot about that? I had to go, but, like, I'm literally watching the video right now as you talk about it. I had to go back to the text to go see what this is. I still can't believe you called this grown man petite, but yeah, he does look a little bit... slight.Zach: Listen, man. If the extra small fits. Like, I'm not trying to be mean. There's nothing wrong with being petite. You can--you can [?]--Ade: You are 6'3". Everybody is smaller than you.Zach: I'm 6'2", first of all. But yeah, I think--I wish I was 6'3". Man, that'd be great. I'm, like, 6'1" 1/2, almost 6'2". If I was, like, 6'3", what? If I was 6'3" with a beard--that's gonna be my next Favorite Thing, beards.Ade: There, so now you're only, like, 9 inches taller than me instead of 12. Great.Zach: There you go. But no, so why are you--why are you hating on the video? Do you not like the video?Ade: I'm not hating on the video actually. I just hadn't seen it, but I had heard a bunch of people, like, talking about it and how amazing it was, but I haven't seen it yet, so I'm just kind of like, "Ugh, God, I don't have anything to add to this conversation." And then you started the conversation about this, calling the man petite, and I had to go look.Zach: It got your attention though, right? See? There you go. Ade: I cannot. Okay.Zach: But what do you think? So you're looking at it. Like, well, how do you--is it not dope or is it not dope? Ade: Well, I haven't actually heard the song accompanying it, but yeah, it looks like a ton of fun.Zach: And don't the people look beautiful?Ade: I mean, yeah, of course. Wait, I think I just saw, like, a gay man in this.Zach: I'm saying. See? No, they're doing it. No, it's dope. Ade: Okay. All right, anyway, let's focus. All right.Zach: So that's my Favorite Thing. So what's your Favorite Thing?Ade: My Favorite Thing? So my Favorite Thing this week is a website called egghead.io. I've been struggling with--actually, two Favorite Things, 'cause, you know, y'all know how I am. Egghead.io is a website that has a bunch of lessons and tutorials for people who are learning programming, and they are, like, super short videos, which is great, because if you have a shrot attention span like I do, there's nothing in the world worse than signing up for sitting down for a 2-hour-long tutorial. It is so painful. And the concepts are [?] and robust, and you often get to, like, code along, so it's fun, for me at least. And then the other thing, my other Favorite Thing, it's the React training course. So I didn't tweet very often about it, but I went to--early last week I got the opportunity to go to a React training. It was on hooks specifically, but they essentially took us through the basics of React all the way through this new concept called hooks which uses [?] context and [?] effect, et cetera, which probably makes no sense to you right now, but I only got to go because I emailed the team behind React training and I just asked them. I was like, "I don't have $1,000 to drop on training, but I'd really like to come," and they said, "Cool, come on." And it's one of the things that I love the most about tech and tech spaces. It's that if you are--if you ask, more often than not somebody will try to find a way to make sure that you can get it. At least the spaces and the people that I have met have been super generous and awesome with their time and are willing to help you learn and help you succeed, and so for people to just go out of their way to support you simply because you say, "Hey, I'm a learner, and I would like the opportunity to attend this training. What can you do for me?" And they go, "Okay. Girl, come on over." It felt really good, and the training was amazing, and I am now using it to build a couple of apps with my friends. So I am--yeah, I'm super thankful for the tech community and thankful in particular for Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson. His name was really Michael Jackson. And Danny [?] over at React training. Yeah, love those guys.Zach: You said--you said his name is Michael Jackson?Ade: It's really Michael Jackson.Zach: Does that not make you nervous? 'Cause he might be so... BAD at his job?Ade: All right. Well, guys. You just had--you just had to get one in. Okay. All right.Zach: [laughing]Ade: Y'all, it was so awesome. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, you're not even gonna do your second favorite thing? You're just gonna--Ade: That was my second Favorite Thing, and my first thing was egghead.io.Zach: Oh, right. You just weaved into the next one. I'm sorry. You're right. Go ahead.Ade: You were so focused on your dad puns that you weren't even paying attention to me.Zach: I was paying attention to you. Relax.Ade: You were not practicing your active listening skills, Zachary.Zach: Man. I had some other ones I was gonna say, but I was like, "Dang, nah." 'Cause I don't wanna--you know what I'm saying? I ain't trying to mess the bag up, the future bag, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, "Eh, let me go ahead and not have a problematic joke."Ade: Your dad joke was amazing actually. Thank you.Zach: No, I believe it. I believe it. Okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry. You were wrapping it up. Okay.Ade: Yeah, caught Michael Jackson while he was on tour for once. All right, no, that was even worse. That was even worse than anything you came up with. Okay. Anyway, that's it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us. Actually, I'm gonna stop saying guys. It's not very inclusive.Zach: I be trying to say. I'm trying to tell you. We need to relax on all these, you know what I'm saying, gender-limiting terms.Ade: You're right. Thanks for joining us, y'all. Next time we will see you--when's the next time we're gonna drop an episode, Zach? Do you know?Zach: I mean, next Friday. Ade: Word.Zach: We drop an episode every week, so.Ade: I've been using a contextual--like, weekly contextual language in this episode, 'cause I said last week, and I didn't know if it was actually gonna be last week by the time they hear this. Anyway, y'all, we're Living Corporate everywhere. We are on your LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. Wherever you be at we be at, so come check us out. If you would like for us to read one of your letters, please send us an email at our gmail. It's livingcorporatepod--podcast? Oh, gosh.Zach: Yo. It is livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us on Twitter and Instagram. You don't know--we're, like, 71 episodes in--or 72, I don't know when this one's gonna drop--you're talking about... goodness gracious. Yes, it's livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: I had "livingcorporatepod" on--Zach: You probably--what you probably did, you was probably thinking about our Twitter, @LivingCorp_Pod.Ade: Yes, that's the one. Uh-huh. I just--I'm not a terrible person. I'm just tired today, y'all. All right. We are on the world wide web at www.living-corporate.com. I got that one right that time.Zach: You did. Good job.Ade: Pats on the back, pats on the back. [laughs] Until next time, it's been Ade.Zach: It's been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

On the fourteenth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield (@LayfieldResume) shares a few methods on how to get the most out of where you are in your career. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumehttps://www.facebook.com/LayfieldResume/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna discuss making the most of where you are. Are you eyeing that executive-level role and don't understand why you aren't there already? Are you consistently overlooked for promotions? Are you wrapped up in your side hustle and feel like your day job is getting in the way? So let's be real here. If you said yes to any of those questions, odds are you may either hate your role or you may be slacking a bit and don't even know it. You probably dread going in and are wondering, "Why am I here?" Believe me, I get it. I've been in that same exact spot. Nonetheless, you are in that job, and you need to make the most of it while you're there. Sometimes it's hard to see where the opportunities are, so I'm gonna try to make it plain for you. Is your 9-to-5 boring? If so, listen to educational and business podcasts and audiobooks that may help you get to that next level. Do you need new skills? Utilize the company's learning management system to take courses and learn skills that would be valuable in your current role or for the roles you're seeking. Are you planning on starting your own business? Study your 9-to-5's business concepts, strategies, and tools. It's like free business school. You get to learn from their mistakes. Want to know what another department does? Sit in on meetings if you're allowed to or request some informational interviews of your own. You'd be surprised who will actually say yes. Do you need a certification or another degree to take your career to the next level but you're strapped for cash? Utilize any tuition reimbursement programs or certification programs that the company has as a stepping stone. No matter how horrible we think a job is, we have to stop and realize how we can leverage our current roles to get to our future ones. We have to get out of the habit of asking for more when we haven't mastered less. The resources your current job provides can assist you in getting to that next level. If you treat every day in the office like it's practice, I can guarantee you'll set yourself up for whatever your next move is. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach takes care of a little house cleaning and touches on a few important topics, such as our blog, 5-star reviews, listener letters, and our monthly newsletter. Back to regularly-scheduled programming next week!Connect with us! https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Zach here with Living Corporate. Now, we have some news, okay? We all know from time to time we'll shout-out JJ. You know, we'll ask him to drop a Flex bomb or the Jamaican air horns or some applause. So listen, he's actually married to the woman who y'all hear on the outro. Her name is Kiara. Mind-blown. Crazy, right? I know, I know, I know. Anyway, look, my wife Candace and I are godparents to their eldest child, and we're all pretty close. Like, we've known each other for many years. So they're actually bringing in their second child very soon. In fact, they may even be here by the time you're listening to this podcast episode. So look, I feel like that gives us a healthy moment to pause and shout-out Kiara and JJ on their expanding family, and it gives me a reasonable excuse to give y'all some other updates, right? All right, so boom. First thing is our blog. Y'all, look, we have content coming out nearly every week now, so make sure you check us out on the website, living-corporate.com, and actually share it on your platforms, especially, like, LinkedIn, Facebook. You know, it's a--remember, like, we're Real Talk in a Corporate World, right? So the more that we can share this type of content in professional spaces--quote unquote professional spaces--the better. So I definitely want to shout-out our regular writers and our guest writers. Y'all need to please keep it up, and y'all--that y'all was to the writers. Now, this y'all is to y'all. Check us out, right? Check us out, give us a read, and just share it around. Okay, so second thing is our 5-star reviews. So we talked about this in our Season 2 Kickoff, but we have some giveaways planned for those who show us love on the iTunes, okay? So do this for us. After you give us a 5-star review, screenshot it and email us with your address. You will then get into a drawing where you can win a mug from us. This is a good mug too. Like, this is not, like, a little, you know what I'm saying--this is not your grandma's mug, okay? It might be your grandma's mug if your grandma's mug would be big, right, with a huge cup. This is a big mug, right? It's a good mug. Like, you could almost actually eat, like, a little small thing of cereal out this mug. Like, it's a good mug, so check it out. But for you to get the mug, again, for free, we're just asking that you give us a 5-star review, and we'll definitely shout y'all out on the show, just like we did so many episodes ago. Third thing is listener letters. Now, look, y'all, we're not just trying to talk AT y'all, and I know that's kind of weird since we're a podcast, but we're not, right? Like, we actually want to dialogue with you, and so make sure you keep sending in listener letters. Ade and I have had fun thus far in what we've gone through, but we could always use more. So continue to send them in, and encourage your friends and your people to do the same. Fourth thing is our newsletter. So every month we drop a newsletter on what we got going on. Our latest episodes, our blogging content, giveaways, partnerships, all of that, so make sure you subscribe to the newsletter through our website. We have--I'm not gonna say the exact number. We've got a few thousand, you know, folks on the newsletter list right now, but our goal is to get to 25,000 by the end of this year, and we're coming up on the halfway mark of the year. We've got a little ways to go, but we want--we want y'all to be on this newsletter, so make sure y'all actually subscribe to the newsletter. Okay, cool. So then last thing, shout-out to y'all. There are so many spaces that I'm seeing in, like, these formal corporate contexts that--they try to talk about culture or D&I, but there's just such a thick veneer of, like, respectability and, frankly, an aversion to discussing race and gender in an intersectional way that--long story less long, rant less long--I just am continuing to understand and value what it is Living Corporate is trying to do here. And this is not me tooting my own horn or trying to pat my own back, but really thanking y'all for supporting this journey that we've been going on, right? It's been a little bit over a year. And our goal was just to create courageous, transparent content that talks about and aims to center identities that are not often centered, right? I mean, kind of what I'm speaking to is I've noticed that, even when we talk about race and we talk about gender within the corporate context, it still centers whiteness, right? Like, it rarely actually centers the perspectives and experiences of the people that are actually being marginalized. It somehow makes racism or discrimination or bias either something that is innocent or unintentional, but it doesn't really, like, seek to empathize, again, or center how those experiences make the non-white party feel. And I believe that Living Corporate is an exercise in empathy, right? Like, we're aiming to really drive and put you, our listeners--especially if you're not a person of color--in those shoes of the people who are experiencing these things and having real, honest, transparent conversations about these topics. And, you know, this platform was kind of birthed out of a certain level of frustration. That frustration has not necessarily gone away. It won't go away, but the frustration is not our fuel for Living Corporate. The love that we've gotten and the support that we've gotten from y'all has been our fuel, so again, shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to Kiara and JJ. Congratulations on y'all's little one. Hope to see them soon. And yeah, we'll catch you all next week. Back to regularly-scheduled programming. This has been Zach. Peace.

On the thirteenth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield illustrates the importance of performing a skills gap analysis when we find we need more skills, credentials, or experience to position ourselves as the best candidate for the job we want. He helpfully breaks down how to conduct one step-by-step.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumehttps://www.facebook.com/LayfieldResume/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today, we're gonna dive into what a skills gap analysis is and how you can conduct one. When we finally figure out the exact job we want to get, often times we are not qualified right off the bat to apply and get it. We may need to gain new skills, credentials, or experience to position ourselves as the best candidate, but the question is "How do you figure out what skills and steps you need to take?" While this can be answered in many ways, a skills gap analysis is a great place to start, so I wanted to take a moment to walk you through how you can conduct a skills gap analysis to help you figure out what skills you need to develop to get into that new role. Step 1, analyze the requirements. When doing this, there are a few questions you want to consider, for both the job you want and the employer you're considering. For the job you want to ask, "What are the roles and responsibilities? What task will I be performing? What technical skills, language skills, or industry knowledge is needed? And what type of education, certifications, or experience is required?" Now, for the employer you want to ask, "Where is the company headed? What skills do they need, not only now but in the future?" And what are their objectives or values? Now, in the next step, Step 2, you want to do a self-assessment. This step requires you to assess what skills and qualifications you currently have. Now, sometimes it's a little hard for us to really identify the skills and qualifications we currently have, so you may want to consult your manager, your mentor, or your professional network to gain a more holistic view of your skills. You just want to get perspective on what knowledge, skills, and ability you currently have. Step 3, identify the gaps. Here you're going to compare your skills to the skills required by the employer, which you identified in Step 1. You're comparing where you currently are to where you want to be. Anything that is present on the employer's required skills list and absent on your skills list is a gap, and that is where you want to focus for the next step. Step 4, create an action plan. Here you figure out how to bridge those gaps that you've identified throughout the analysis. Some of the items that you can do to bridge those gaps may include things like mentoring, interning, more schooling, online courses, certifications, training programs, conferences, reading, volunteering, et cetera. You want to make sure that the goals that you set here in your action plan are S.M.A.R.T., and when I say that I mean that they are Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Step 5, the last step? Execute. This last step is get out there and get it done. So I thank you for joining me again. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn. I'll be talking to you soon.

Ade sits down with community builder and career/life coach (and Mentors & Mentees founder) Tim Salau to talk about what it means to take ownership of your career. They also discuss the future of the workforce and what shape it will take in the next 5-10 years.Connect with Tim on IG, Twitter, or LinkedIn!https://www.instagram.com/timsalau/?hl=enhttps://twitter.com/timsalau?lang=enhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/timsalauTRANSCRIPTAde: Hi. Welcome back to the show. If you're listening, this is Living Corporate. My name is Ade. I'm one of your hosts for the show, and with me today we have one of our favs here on this show, Tim Salau. Tim, you want to say hello?Tim: Yeah. Hey, y'all. It's Tim Salau.Ade: How are you doing? How are you doing, man?Tim: I'm doing well, Ade. I'm doing good.Ade: Welcome back. How have you been all of these days? Like, you just dipped off, left Living Corporate Land, haven't, like, shown your face back around these parts.Tim: I've been doing well. Some big, great things have been happening since then. I've recently started working with WeWork, leading product marketing management and focusing on really unleashing the future of work.Ade: Wow.Tim: Yeah, and I continue to grow the Mentors & Mentees community and have onboarded a few brand partners since then, including Living Corporate as one of them. So a lot of great things have been happening.Ade: That's amazing. That was a perfect segue into the conversation that we're having today. When you say the future of work, could you talk a little bit more about that?Tim: Absolutely. So the future of work is this really general, broad view of how, in the next 5-10 years, we're no longer gonna be working in a workforce where things are static, where you only see salaried employees. More so you'll see a mix of freelancers, salaried employees, and even contract workers in the workforce. So it's this very broad view with most of--you know, that looks at how the organizations of the future are gonna look, that thinks about how the gig economy is gonna affect, you know, what the workforce is gonna look like in the future, and most importantly, how will workers have to adapt in this future. And when I think about the future of work, I often define it as, from a worker perspective and a professional prospective, you being able to take control of your career as a worker, as a professional, and I think there are other elements of it where you can look at it from a gig economy perspective, you can look at it from an organizational design perspective and a more business perspective. How do organizations adopt and adopt a leveraging AI and all of these different tools that will allow them to stay digital in an ever-changing digital landscape? But my definition of it is more so taking control of your career as a worker and pursuing the opportunities that are tailor-fit for you.Ade: That's awesome. So question for you, then, to follow up on that. What does taking control of your career look like as an individual? I want to come back to what it means for organizations to make this kind of [C-?] change into the workforce of the future, but as an individual, as someone who's gonna be working for a few years, I want to know what it's like--what taking ownership of my career looks like and what that means for an individual.Tim: Well, you know, there's a lot of elements to that, Ade. I believe that taking control of your career, first and foremost, is starting to invest in what you can control. I think I often talk to professionals, and they don't realize that the future of work you have to be pushing yourself towards being an asset, not a commodity. So really starting to outline what are the strengths, the skills, the unique aspects of you that are fit for a role that you're interested in, right? For example, if you are someone looking to get into product management, right, and potentially work for a media podcast company, you would have to take control of the opportunities or the platforms that allow you to put yourself out there, whether it be a LinkedIn, you're having a website or networking the right circles that give you visibility to that network of media podcast professionals and product managers who are working within that industry, right? So I think that, for a long time, there's been traditional expectations, traditional behavior, that workers have adopted in which we no longer see our careers as in our control, as being proactive and really working towards where we want to be by doing the right things. Instead it's always been you wait to climb the corporate ladder, you wait until your manager says you can get promoted. You wait until, you know, you see the opportunity that comes to you instead of really taking that self-agency and pursuing the right opportunity. So I think that's one element of, you know, you taking control of your career. And I think another element of it is being very clear at investing in your personal brand. I do believe, from a worker's perspective, that personal brands are gonna matter in the future, 'cause your personal brand is what differentiates you. It's what allows people to start seeing you as an asset. Ade: Right. Okay, well, now I have to put some thought into my personal brand beyond, like, jokes and talking about food. Okay, thank you. I'm gonna put that on my to-do list. So you mentioned earlier the Mentors & Mentees community. Let's talk a little bit more about that. What are the top three tips that you give within Mentors & Mentees about the intentionality that you put into your career?Tim: Yeah. I think, first and foremost, it starts with introspection. I don't believe that, you know, you have to force your personal brand. I don't believe that you have to start investing in things, whether it be courses or coaches, who tell you that this is your personal brand, yet it's not. It's not something that you feel is true to you. I believe that one of the best ways, and what I often tell my community, is that you start realizing your strengths, what your gifts are, by really going deep, going deep and evaluating "What are prior roles that I've had that have led me to this point in my career?" "What do people that I spend my time with intimately--family, friends, coworkers--what do they think are some of the unique strengths of me? Let me ask them those questions," and then from there you get to a point where you start--and then you soul-search and say, "Okay, what am I great at? What do I want to be great at? What do I want to be known for?" And then when you take all of those different factors--what your coworkers say about you, your prior experiences, and then you dig deep, you start to see--you start to see some patterns, and you, more importantly, start defining what is it that makes you unique. Is it your cultural background? Is it certain industry experiences that no one else in your domain has? Are there certain skills that no one else wants to do or has acquired that you bring to the table when it comes to being, you know, an employee for a company? You really get that holistic perspective. So I always tell my members of my community and my friends that look, dig deep, right? And then from there, start being a giver. Start finding opportunities where you can give your strengths away, where you can really stand out because you're playing in your zone of greatness. So that's really when your personal brand starts unlocking for you. I'll give you an example. For me, I realized my purpose and kind of what I wanted to kind of be uniquely known for and that I wanted to kind of live day in and day out two years ago when I was at UT Austin pursuing my grad degree. And, you know, I had deep moments of reflection, and I realized, "You know what? If there's anything I want to be great at, it's to strengthen the bonds that people share through compassion and empathic action," and, you know, I eventually found a title for it in kind of an area that I really, really love, which is community building. From that point on, I created a community. I've invested myself in that community day in and day out, and to a degree now people know me as that. That's my brand because people know how great I am at it, right? So I've uniquely differentiated myself, and I also operate within this overlap where I do product management work and I'm in tech, so now I have this really unique characteristic of me where I stand out. I'm not only a community builder, but I'm somebody that can talk to you about product management. I'm someone that can talk to you about how to get into tech, so I get hit up about that a lot. So that's really how you go about saying, "Okay, how do I stand out in such a competitive job market so I can thrive in the future of work?"Ade: Right, and I love the phrase that you used earlier, "zone of greatness." I'm probably gonna--I'm gonna co-op that for my own use a little bit later on. Thank you. Snatched. [both laugh] All right, so before we go--those were some really great points that we're gonna take forward, and I'm probably gonna start sending, like, surveys around to my friends and my family members, like, "Hey, take this three to five question quiz about what I'm good at, 'cause I'm trying to develop my personal brand."Tim: Yeah, and you should. You should.Ade: So if you are my friend and you're listening, please note that you will be receiving a survey within the next three to five business days.Tim: And you know what? The ones that do, Ade, the ones that answer that survey, they care about you. They want you to be great. The ones that don't, you gotta question that relationship. [laughs]Ade: My woes. Listen, if you receive a survey from me and you do not respond to my survey, our friendship is dead. DEAD. [both laugh] All right. So before we go, let's talk about WeWork really quickly. You mentioned at the beginning of this interview that you now have a position or relationship with WeWork. I personally attend a ton of events at WeWork, especially at Flatiron School. Tim: [woos excitedly]Ade: Yeah, I'm a huge fan. So talk to me. What attracted you to WeWork? What are you doing there? How can I get a membership for the low-low? [Tim laughs] Tell me all about it.Tim: So I'll see what I can do about the membership, but to give you a little bit of clarity as to, you know, why I'm really excited to be working with WeWork is that what WeWork does in the community space in terms of their core business, which is, you know, obviously selling space to entrepreneurs and creators who want to, you know, do the best work of their lives and build their business and connect with others. The fact that WeWork is really just a framework for creating community, that's what attracted me to the company, and as a community builder, someone that is obsessed with community and someone that does it day in and day out as my life purpose--it is what I'm building my legacy around, 'cause that's what drives me, I saw that there was a unique opportunity for me to contribute my value, contribute my perspective as a black man in tech, and as someone who's an avid community builder and understands there's strength in numbers, there was great potential in me, I believe, working with a company like WeWork that's really building that next generation of what community will look like, right? Whether it be at work, in cities, and at a global level too, because we work as a multi-national company, and I felt as if, you know, I'm at a point in my career where I want to be able to do the best work of my life, and I know what my strengths are, I know what my gifts are, so the opportunity now for me to really lead the future of work, something I talk about often online with my community, with my friends, and what people know me of, it was a perfect fit. And, you know, that's why I encourage people to think about too--when you think about the future of work and you think about how you want to build what you're known for, you have to think about what are companies, what are the opportunities that are a unique fit for you? Because I could say working with WeWork is a unique fit for me. This role that I'm in, I'm gonna be doing a lot of community building. I'm gonna be doing a lot of evangelizing about the future of work. I'm going to be doing all of the things that really unleash all of the best aspects of me. So when you find that fit, you know, you become on another level.Ade: Right, right. That's awesome. I think an additional thing that I love about WeWork is that as a space it's almost inclined to support interaction, right? Like, you come in, and there are a lot of open spaces. Like, yes, you can find your privacy, and there's some really interesting areas and nooks and crannies that you can hide yourself if you are, like me, not interested in extended human interaction, but there are also times where you walk into WeWork and there are a bunch of people there who are complete strangers, or were complete strangers 20 minutes ago, and they're now talking about their interests and their companies and "Oh, I formed Such-and-such LLC, and I can help you form an LLC," and all of these really amazing conversations, particularly with young professionals in tech, many of whom are transitioning, many of whom aren't even sure what the vastness of the possibilities exist within tech. So yeah, I'm gonna wax poetic about WeWork a little bit more later on, but yeah, thank you so much for sharing that experience and sharing your purpose in that manner. And I especially think, for those of us who are underrepresented in tech in general, no one who wants longevity out of their career goes at it alone. It's one of the things that I discovered when I started self-teaching, is that isolation will hurt you more than it will help. There's some times where you need to shut the entire world off and really, like, buckle down and focus, but more often than not somebody has done what you're doing. They--Tim: Someone has done it.Ade: Right, you're not the first person in the world to be stuck on binary search trees or hash tables. [both laugh] And it's probably a better use of your time to seek out the wisdom of those who have done it before than to kind of bang your head at it for six months at a time, not because there's no utility in teaching yourself those things, but because you're joining a community, you're joining a community of learners and teachers, and there's no better place to be than people who are eager to share their experiences within their understanding with you, which does not minimize your experience as a learner. Again, waxing poetic. All of that to say that WeWork is such an important space, and building a community for yourself is such an important aspect of your career.Tim: I couldn't agree more. You need to come work with us at WeWork. [both laugh]Ade: Is that how I get a space? Tim: That's it.Ade: Because, I mean, I'm down.Tim: You got the job. You got the job! [Tim laughs]Ade: Just like that. See? 2019, getting jobs I didn't even interview for. Look at me. Shout-out to God. Okay. Before we go, Tim, is there anything else that you'd like to add, anything that you'd like to touch on that we haven't spoken about?Tim: Absolutely. For all of y'all listening right now, join the Mentors & Mentees community if you want to take control of your career and achieve career fulfillment. That is the focus of our community. We are in growth mode, and, you know, we are booming. As a community builder, I will welcome you, I will show you love, and our members will do the same. And I also want to share that if you've got a friend that needs a career coach, let them know I am a career coach as well. Aside from all of the things I do--I do a lot of things 'cause I'm living in the future of work literally as I speak about it--so if you need a coach that will take care of your career and help you, position you to thrive in the future of work, that is moi. So, you know, hit me up on LinkedIn. For y'all who are following me on LinkedIn, thank y'all. For y'all who are not, please get to it. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook as well if those are your preferred channels. But connect with me. I would love to continue to carry this conversation with you all.Ade: I just want to add that your hustle is unreal, because, like, I think I've counted--I think I've counted, like, the three positions just now. [Tim laughs] I think the only--like, the only people who work harder than Tim are, like, Jamaicans and Beyonce. Tim: I've gotten that before. "Are you Jamaican?" I said "No, I'm Nigerian. I'm Nigerian-American."Ade: [laughs] That's hilarious, and know you're doing Nigerians proud. Very happy to have you in your corner. Tim: I am happy to be a part of the Living Corporate family.Ade: Thank you so very much for joining us, yeah. So happy to have you. Please don't be a stranger.Tim: Oh, of course not.Ade: That's it from us, guys. We're signing off. Remember, per usual, you can catch us on pretty much, you know, everywhere. If you're on Facebook, if you're on LinkedIn, if you're on Twitter, if you're on Instagram. We are Living Corporate everywhere. You can also catch us at www.living-corporate.com. Tell Australia to free livingcorporate.com for our use. That's it for us today. I was so happy to speak to you today. Thank you so much for joining us, Tim, and until next time, Living Corporate family, go out and be great.Tim: Be great!Ade: Peace.

On the twelfth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield shares why we should prepare for our one-on-ones and how to do just that. No meeting is ever productive without some preparation beforehand, so take 10-15 minutes either the day before or morning of to prepare!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumehttps://www.facebook.com/LayfieldResume/TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. So today, let's talk about why you should prepare for your one-on-ones and how to do just that. Most of us in Corporate America have bosses who are pulled in many different directions, so we should really be making the most of our one-on-one time with them. No meeting is ever productive without some preparation beforehand, so take 10-15 minutes either the day before or morning of to prepare. By coming prepared to your one-on-one, you can get your questions answered, make sure you're aligned with your boss, and most importantly, show the work you've been doing. So let's talk about some ways you can prepare. First I'd say check your notes from the last time you met. This way if you all didn't get to a topic, you can come back around to it, but you'll also know what follow-ups are needed. Now, that takes me to my next point. Check your follow-up and task list. If your boss gave you some things to follow up on or to do, it's the worst when you get together and realize you didn't complete those tasks. At least now you may be able to get in a few calls and a few emails to say you've reached out. Also, it will refresh your memory on things your boss took away that they're supposed to be checking on, so you can bring those up as well. Next, I would say check any email exchanges you or your boss have had since your last meeting. Maybe there's something in those messages that you didn't understand, and this is a great time to ask. Maybe there's something you know your boss will want an update on, and now you can make sure that you have it. This shows your boss that you're paying attention to their correspondence. Last but definitely not least, review your goals. At the end of the day, everything in corporate comes back to your annual goals. This will allow you to know where you stand, ensure your goals are aligned, and potentially gain feedback if you need assistance. Preparing for a one-on-one can make a world of difference in how your boss views you. Take the time to do so, and I'm sure at the very least your working relationship will improve. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On today's episode of the Living Corporate podcast, Zach and Ade read and respond to two listener letters. They provide their unique perspectives and offer up helpful advice on how to best advocate for yourself while encouraging others to do the same.Connect with us on our website!https://www.living-corporate.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you know what? You're listening to Living Corporate, and, you know, today--Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp. And today--[both laughing] we have listener letters. So for those who don't know, we encourage, at the end of every episode, to send us some listener letters. You can submit them through Instagram DMs, through Twitter DMs, through our email, through our website Contact Us section. Just hit us up. Ask us things and we will provide our perspective. We are not certified coaches. We are just--Ade: Or psychologists.Zach: Or psychologists.Ade: Or counselors.Zach: Or counselors.Ade: Let's just put all of our disclaimers out there. All of this is just from our perspectives, and we love y'all, we care about you, and we want to make sure that you succeed. However, you know, this is not a binding contract. Cool. Let's move forward.Zach: Yep, that's right. We're just two black folks out here trying to help other people of color, you know what I'm saying? That's all we're trying to do. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna read a couple of these listener letters. We'll talk about 'em, wax poetic, and then we'll wrap it up. Ade, what else do you think we need to add to this? Ade: Sit back, relax, grab a glass of water if you're listening, and sip with us. Take a sip. Oh, and also, just side-note - this is a thing that my mother has been making me do recently - drink some honey lemon ginger tea or honey ginger lemon or ginger lemon honey tea, whatever combination works for you, to just, like, soothe your throat while you listen.Zach: You got the--you got the recipe? Or--Ade: I mean, I'm not gonna be responsible for my mother's recipe getting out there. Look on the Internet. There's a whole bunch of different recipes. Zach: Okay, so just Google it basically. So they won't be drinking your mom's recipe, but that combination of tea would be good. Okay, I just wanted to make sure we [?]. All right, cool. Okay. Well, look, our first listener net--listener letter--Ade: Listener netter.Zach: Listener netter, which is a new type of listener letter, is coming from Raquel, and the subject is--Ade: Hi, Raquel.Zach: What's going on, Raquel? Also your phone's making noises in the background. Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Huh?Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Wasn't you? Was it me? Might have been me.Ade: Probably. Zach: No. Oh, it probably was me.Ade: It was totally you.Zach: Yep, it was.Ade: Narrator: It was actually me.Zach: My bad. [?] [laughs] First listener letter is coming from Raquel. Hi, Raquel. Subject line is "I need a promotion." Here we go. "Hey, guys. End-of-the-year performance reviews are coming up, and I'm really anxious about getting promoted. I've had some serious wins this year and positive feedback from my boss, and I've been bringing up my desire to get promoted. I'm not sure if it's enough though. Performance reviews start in about six weeks. What advice would you give in my final stretch? Thanks." Hm.Ade: Do you want to start, or should I go?Zach: You go.Ade: Okay. First of all, Raquel, thank you for writing in. This is a pretty big one. I think everyone in general is invested in the course of their careers, and feeling as though your review is coming up and you're not quite sure that you can advocate for yourself is a huge deal. So that said, I will give you the advice that my senior, the senior associate on my project, gave me when I first started. It was that you write down all of your wins. Like, in the next few weeks, start taking stock of all of the things that you did really well, all of the pats on the back you got, all of the shout-outs, all of the wins, and then also write down all of the not-so-great situations. All of the sit-down conversations that you had to have, all of the after-action items that you had to take down, so that you have all of the knowledge necessary to advocate for yourself once it's time for those reviews, because it's very, very easy for you to personally recall all of the times that you didn't do so well more than the times when you killed it, like you had a three-hour turnaround time for some huge deliverable or you owned that client meeting and all of the clients left looking at you like you were the second coming of the messiah. Just really take stock of all of the amazing things that you did, because 1. it makes you more confident in these conversations, 'cause you can walk into those meetings like, "Yeah, I am that person." Of course the term I'm using here is not "person," but whatever. But also it's very, very difficult for managers to miss the million, million, million things that you did that were amazing because they're overseeing a whole bunch of people, and so it's easy for some of your big wins to fall between the cracks, and that big win falling between the cracks can mean the difference between a $2,000 bonus and a $10,000 bonus. Maybe not that significant, but you get what I'm saying. What do you think, Zach?Zach: Yeah. So, you know, my experience in getting promoted is all about having more than just one advocate in those rooms, right? So one, to your--everything you said I 100% agree. You have to make sure that you're writing down and that you make it easy for people to advocate for you, and the way that you do that is what you just said. So writing down your wins, writing down your growth, like, documenting those things in something that is easy to read, like a one-pager or a couple of PowerPoint slides that you can quickly just send out and folks can, you know, review and speak to or reference. That's gonna make it easy. And then also, you know, you used the language "my final stretch." It's really important--and, like, again, recognizing where you are, but any time you're thinking about getting promoted or you know that you're looking to get promoted or you're looking for a huge raise, you're looking for--you're looking to get something out of the--you're looking to really progress, you want to--really want to treat your entire performance almost like a campaign run, right? So, like, mapping it out, thinking about who are the folks that you want to connect with, what are the things that you want to accomplish, and then like we've been saying, making sure that you document those things and that you equip the people who you want to be your promoters, your advocates in those rooms, in those spaces, give them plenty of heads-up, right? So you said you have six weeks. I would, like, look across, think about what you've done this past year, think about the people that you've worked with and say, "Hey, I'm looking to get promoted this year. This is my goal." And, like, don't be afraid, right? It's a goal, and ask, "Would you be willing to support me?" If so, if they say yes--depending on how you want to frame it, "If so, would you please review this here?" Or "Would you be willing to write something for me?" Right? So every company has something different. Some companies have kind of, like, in-time reviews. Other people have, like, informal kind of, like, write-ups and positive notes. Other people--like, there's various things, right, that you can--there are various ways you can document, but it's about gathering those points of evidence, and then that way when it's time for your review and people are looking for your--you're basically building a case for yourself, there's a variety of things people can pull from. That's really important. So, like, you said you have six weeks. I would really, like, kind of put your nose to the grindstone, reach out to the people that you know that you've had a positive impact on, have a conversation with them, make it easy for them to advocate for you, and then, again, kind of depending on who it is--if you know who's gonna be the person who's gonna, like, explicitly gonna be talking about, "Hey, this is why this person should get promoted," have a conversation with them as well. Let them know what you're doing. Give them all of that evidence, and then make sure that y'all have a conversation about what it looks like for you to be properly spoken about and advocated for. Ade: That's not to say that this process is easy, especially, Raquel, if you are feminine-of-center, it's not--you're not often taught how to advocate for yourself and how to really push for what you want. It's something that I'm personally learning how to do, and I think that there's no better place to do that than at work, because it's work, so yes, it bleeds into the rest of your life and et cetera, et cetera, but it's really just a microcosm of the greater world around you, and what it means to advocate at work is also what it means to advocate for yourself in your personal lives, in your friendships, in your relationships, and so treat this as a proving ground for--it's not just about work here, right? I would treat this as, "Okay, if I'm able to really push for what I want here, whether or not I get it"--and yes, you will, girl--"Whether or not I get it, I know that I've had the experience of what it means to advocate for myself period, regardless of where I go." So once you get this one out of the way, every successive conversation that you have that might be difficult, that might feel uncomfortable, cannot possibly be more difficult than the very first one. So either way, we got your back. Thank you for writing in.Zach: Yerp. Ade: Did you have anything else you wanted to say, Zach, before I cut this entire conversation off?Zach: Nope.Ade: [laughing] I realize that that's what I did, my bad.Zach: No, it's good. I feel like my contribution was the "yerp." I'm good.Ade: [laughs] I can't stand you.Zach: [laughs] Cool. Yeah, so all--godspeed to Raquel. Definitely excited for you. Hopefully you can give us an update and let us know how it goes.Ade: Right. Drinks on you next time around.Zach: Drinks on you next time, 'cause you ballin'. Maybe one day, you know what I'm saying, we can all work together, you know what I'm saying?Ade: Big ballin', shot callin'.Zach: Right. Right, right. So cool, cool, cool. We have another one here.Ade: Yerp.Zach: Ade, you want to take this one?Ade: Most definitely. All right, so this one, the subject says "GET ME OUT OF HERE!" In caps, so I really had to give it the respect that it was due. So Xavier writes in saying, "Hey, y'all. I am so close to just walking out of work and never coming back it's not even funny." Oh, my. "I seriously need a mental heatlh break, just go on a trip and never come back. JK." He really said that. "JK, I come back. My problem is that even though we have "unlimited PTO" at work, it feels like we're discouraged from taking PTO." Hm. "My co-worker went on a trip a few months back, and she's had to deal with jokes about her work ethic." What?! "She's been made to work really hectic schedules and just overall painted like less of a team player. I don't want to deal with this while at my job. I can't keep living like this. Please help. Frustrated and about to burn out, Xavier." [exhales] Ow.Zach: Oh, man. Xavier.Ade: You want to get started with this one, Zach?Zach: X. Yes. [laughs] Ade: Professor X.Zach: X! Ah, X. Nah, I mean, I've definitely been there, and I feel like I sadly--like, I'm closer to being there than other places, so this really resonates with me. It's tough when you don't feel like you can--you can take off work, right? But at the same time, I mean, when you start getting to the point where it's like, "Man, I'm about to quit," or "Man, I just gotta get up out of here," then I think that's when it comes to making sure that you have, like, really transparent conversations, right, with your boss, like, "Hey, I recognize we're in a really busy time, I recognize what's going on. I am--I am burnt out. I am exhausted. I am--" Just be honest, right? There's ways to phrase it in a way that does not come across like you're whining or that you're being fragile or dramatic, and these are insecurities that I deal with all of the time, 'cause, like, I'm always trying not to be the diva. And I'll say that. I'll be like, "I'm not trying to be a diva. I apologize for bringing this up." Like, there have been things that I've had to raise at work in my career that were perfectly right to raise, but I don't like being the center of that attention, right? But you gotta think about this. Xavier, he's saying--he's saying that he's, like, thinking about not coming back, and he says JK, but, I mean, like, he's not really--he's not really kidding. Like, he wrote this, right? Like, he took the time, wrote it, and sent it, so there's a certain level of seriousness to this. So I would say have a conversation with your boss, be transparent about where you're--why you're feeling this way, and then move forward and take the time off, right? If your job provides you unlimited PTO, and you have a--and you're about to burn out, then take it. I think the only thing is that make sure that whatever work that you need to get done or that you won't be tackling during that time, make sure that you're working with your boss, with your team, with whoever to make sure that those things are covered, right? That's the challenge. So, like, with your co-worker who they were saying, like, people question their work ethic and everything, it's like, some of that is cultural. Like, that might just be, like, just the culture of that space, but also if you're really proactive and you say, "Hey, look, for the next three days I'm gonna be off, 'cause I need to recharge, and these are the things that are gonna be happening in these three days." And again, like, not--I would not give them a day heads-up. I would tell them, like, you know, a couple weeks in advance and say, "Hey, look, these are the tasks. Can--who--" Like, make it very simple. Like, "Hey, these are the things that need to get done. This is the way that you're gonna have get these things done," and that way people can just kind of take it, drive it, and then close it. That way when you come back you're not staring down the barrel of a bunch of work that didn't get done. Your team isn't having to kind of pick up the--isn't having to, like, deal with the impacts of stuff, just the dependencies and anything like that that you--the things that they were depending on you for. You're able just to--you're able to kind of, like, have a clean transition, but if you do that and you're transparent with your supervisor, hey, man, you gotta take the time off and take care of yourself. Ade, what do you think?Ade: Agreed. I think my very first point was that succession plan that you were talking about earlier, creating just an Excel spreadsheet and listening the discrete tasks that are yours, that you own, and who is equipped on your team to deal with them, and then having a come-to-Jesus moment with your--with your boss, because I think of it as a sign of poor management that you would even have to justify you leaving and taking a mental health break. The reason I say that is because if you're experiencing this, like, heavy workload and this hectic schedule and you feel like you're about to burn out, then somebody has noticed. Somebody has noticed. I can say from my own personal experience, like, when it's incredibly hectic at work, my director comes up and is like, "All right, we're taking everybody. Stop what you're doing. We're going for a coffee break. We're just gonna walk and go outside and experience the sunshine on our faces," or my lead goes, "Okay, everyone has to leave at 6:00 p.m. tonight. Nobody needs to be in this building." Like, they're being proactive about caring for you as a person as much as they care for you as a co-worker or as a resource at work, because everybody knows that you are less valuable to them as an institution if you're honestly not on top of your game, and there's no way that you can be on top of your game when you are a ball of nerves and anxiety. That's one. Two, I am genuinely concerned, actually, about your co-worker having to deal with being treated poorly. So it's one thing to leave your team in the lurch and, you know, not have adequate support for all of your--all of the times in your workstream, or your co-workers feeling like you left them holding the bag on several items, but this sounds like she was just punished for--and it might just be your own current perspective based off of how you're feeling currently--but it sounds like she's being punished for having the audacity to leave. To, like, just go and take a mental health break, and I would look into--I know you say you love your job, but I would look into alternate employment, simply because--Zach: [laughs]Ade: I am so serious.Zach: [laughing] I know. I know you're not joking.Ade: I am so serious, because the same way that they find it comfortable to alienate someone just for doing what they say to do--like, a lot of these companies will go, "Yeah, we absolutely--we give you unlimited PTO because we care about you and we want to make sure that you're okay and your life continues, just because--" Yada yada yada yada yada yada. Okay, whatever, but if the truth of the matter is that when you do in fact take this time off and when you do in fact take advantage of all of the perks associated with your job you get treated a type of way for it, that doesn't sit well with me personally. It feels like you're being set up, and again, this may not be the truth of the matter. I'm just reading, inferring from what I see here, but it does feel like, or it does sound like, there is no winning, that you are either going to be working your butt off until you have, like, a sincere breakdown, or you take breaks when and forever long you need them and you're punished for it, and that just in general doesn't sit well with me personally. That seems like a bad practice. It seems retaliatory, that you would take a break and then be given all of these hectic schedules upon your arrival. So yeah, I think in general I advocate that you come up to your boss with full honesty, like Zach said, and a succession plan, and by succession plan I mean literally take every single thing that you do over the course of a week and list them, and also list the people who are able to take on those tasks, 'cause you generally--I don't know about everywhere else, but I know that I don't work in a complete silo so that if I ever have to take a break from work, there are people who know and understand enough of what I do that they're able to take--to pick up the slack in my absence, and it's just--for those of you out there who own your own companies or are senior management in companies, it is such a toxic work culture to create to say that people aren't able to take breaks when they need to, that people are punished for just living their lives. Like, people's lives don't start and end at work, and it's unfair and it's toxic and it's abusive to decide that your employee's whole world should revolve around work, and when it doesn't you punish them for it? That's jacked up.Zach: Nah, I agree, and I was laughing about you saying, you know, "I would really advise you to seek somewhere else to work," 'cause it kind of reminds me of The Read where people will be like, "Dump him." Ade: Absolutely.Zach: "Dump him" is, like, the main thing they'll say.Ade: But also, if you've ever--if you notice, like, people who write into The Read--and this is a complete sidebar, but I have felt this on my spirit for a while--people who write into The Read or the Relationships subreddit generally are, like, at the end of their rope. People don't just go seek advice from strangers for funsies. They're like, "Okay, I really can't talk to anybody else in my life about this. I need some kind of help," and it's usually just, like, a wild situation, and everybody needs to, like, scream at them, "Please leave. Please."Zach: No, that's 100%. You're not wrong. It's just funny, but ultimately, because of the capitalist society that we live in, right, like, life is becoming increasingly about work. There's an unspoken but ever increasing expectation that you're just gonna work, and work and work and work and work, your mental, physical, emotional, spiritual wellness be damned, right?Ade: Right, and you are validated only through your work, and I am here to tell you that that is not it, friends. That's not the truth of the matter. It doesn't have to be the truth of the matter. Please take breaks.Zach: Yeah. No, no doubt. So Xavier, I definitely hope that this helps. I pray that you don't burn yourself out, give yourself the break, and it's crazy because--what's really interesting rather is if you don't give yourself the break, your body will give itself a break eventually, right? Like, you'll pass out, you'll get sick, and, like, you know, that vacation, like, you'll get a different type of vacation. So make sure you--just make sure you take care of yourself.Ade: There are no beaches in hospital beds. I'll tell you that right now.Zach: That's true. [laughs] Oh, goodness. Okay. Well, cool. So we have--you know, we have a few. We try to do two or three listener letters, you know, per each of these episodes. We're not trying to inundate y'all, but we do have more, so we'll be back with more listener letters in another episode.Ade: Yep, and thank you to everyone who wrote in. We hoped this helped. Again, please seek out the advice or help of people who are even more professionaler than we are.Zach: Yes, professionaler. Who are betterer than us.Ade: Who are betterer at us than this, who are able to physically be there for you in a way that we may not be able to. We love y'all. Stay safe. Stay lifted. You have anything else you want to add, Zach? Do you have, like, a Favorite Things? I know I sprung this one on you, but you sprung it on me the--well, a few weeks ago, so.Zach: Nope, nope, fair enough. So my Favorite Thing this week--I do have a Favorite Thing, so that's gonna be crazy socks. So crazy socks are--and when I say crazy socks, I really just mean, like, socks with unique designs. So socks with unique designs, like, they've been kind of, like, in style, like, they've been normalized now, but I still really enjoy them. So I'm not gonna say the website I procure my socks from, but I've been really excited 'cause I recently just got some socks that are, like, pink with, like, little black and white puppy dogs on 'em.Ade: [scoffs] That sounds really cute actually. I was gonna make fun of you, but...Zach: Aw, look at you.Ade: I mean, I'm still gonna make fun of you, but they still sound cute.Zach: Okay. Well, I appreciate that. I respect that. So then I got some, like, lime green ones with, like, some red t-rexes on 'em, but they're, like, cartoony kind of t-rexes. So I love socks. I think it's an easy way to show a little bit of style. People laugh--so I know on my current project people laugh because--like, I'm the only person on the project that wears a blazer, but, like, from a style perspective I think blazers are cool, and so I'm gonna rock a blazer. Like, no doubt, and so--and I also have, like, a little pocket square, and then I have my crazy socks. And it's not like I'm wearing, like, high--what's the word, high-waters? I'm not flooding, so it's not like you're gonna just see my socks, but, like, if people go, "Hey, like, what's the drip looking like?" I'ma be like, "Ayo." I'll pull up the pant leg one time and let you know, like, it's dripping. I'm dripping.Ade: "What's the drip looking like."Zach: [laughs] When my boss--if my boss ever walks up and he says, "Hey, Zach, what's the drip looking like?" I'll be like--Ade: Why in the world--see...Zach: No one ever--no one ever at my job would ever say "What's the drip looking like?" No one would say that.Ade: Yeah, I just--I need--anybody from Zach's job, if y'all are listening to this, I encourage y'all to write in and please tell me the accuracy of this man's statements, not because I think this man is lying, but, like, I just want a first-hand account of his dad jokes at work.Zach: But I have taught my--I have taught my supervisor the concept of drip, and it's funny, like--Ade: On that note, we're gonna roll out of here. That's gonna be--that's gonna be it for us on today. Zach: [laughs] Oh, you're not gonna--you don't have a Favorite Thing?Ade: [whispering] Damn, I really thought I was gonna escape.Zach: [laughs] What's your Favorite Thing?Ade: So my Favorite Thing currently is Victory Lap by Nipsey Hussle. If you've heard of Nipsey Hussle--or if you haven't, Nipsey Hussle was a rapper and an entrepreneur who was murdered recently, and because it was essentially his final project--I don't know if there's anything in his vault that his family will eventually decide to release--it really was a spectacular album. It was nominated for Grammy of the Year, I think. If I recall correctly. If not, then whoops, my bad. But yeah, my Favorite Thing. I haven't been able to stop listening to it, and I encourage you all, if you are a fan of rap, of hip-hop, of storytelling in general, even if it's not a medium you've ever enjoyed, it's a worthwhile album to listen to just because it's such an incredible story. That's it. That's all I got.Zach: That's dope. Well, cool. I guess we're gonna get up on out of here. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast.Ade: Yeah, thanks for listening.Zach: Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate or Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Ade's already talked to you about submitting listener letters, but I'm just gonna say it one more time. If you want to submit a listener letter, make sure you get at us at Instagram DMs, Twitter DMs, our email, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: We're also on Al Gore's Internet at living-corporate.com, because Australia refuses to let us be great.Zach: That's true, but we're also at livingcorporate.co with no dash. We own all of the domains really except for livingcorporate.com. We have livingcorporate.net, .org, you know what I'm saying? We have 'em all. We just don't have livingcorporate.com.Ade: Which is wild.Zach: Which is wild. We have everything else but that. Anyway, appreciate y'all. We'll talk to you all soon. This has been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Both: Peace.

On the eleventh installment of Tristan’s Tips, our esteemed guest Tristan Layfield illustrates the concept of time management and offers up a few of his very own methods to help you get more organized and productive.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumehttps://www.facebook.com/LayfieldResume/TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna talk about time management. There are so many things we aren't taught in school that are necessary to be a functioning part of society, including things like career readiness and personal finance, but there's one essential skill that is necessary or everything else might crumble, and it's time management. While there's no one correct way to manage your time, I figured I'd talk to you about a few things that I've tried or currently use to see if you can adopt some of them in hopes that they help. The one thing that has always worked for me is a handy-dandy to-do list. Many people make to-do lists, but quite a few of them do it wrong. They jam their list with tons of things, knowing that they won't get to them all, and then wonder why they don't feel accomplished at the end of the day. Always be smart about your to-do lists. I keep a large list of all of the things I have to or want to do, then I use that to make my daily to-do list the night before, prioritizing items as needed. This helps me know what I'll be focused on on the next day. I also ensure that I look at my calendar to determine how many tasks or how much I can take on. I don't overdo it, because stuffing your to-do list with things you know you're not going to do defeats the purpose. Now, the way I've created my to-do list has varied over the years. I used to use my Notes app, then I tried what's called bullet journaling, next I moved to Trello, and now I use the Google Tasks app. It's clean, it's simple, and I can see my to-do list and on both my Gmail and Google Calendar. This makes my list readily available no matter what device I'm on. So, you know, really the message here is don't be afraid to go out and find the tools that help you do what you need to do, and for those of you who are more analog in a digital world, keep that handy pen and paper out and make your list. Don't try to fit into the mold of what others are doing, especially if you know it doesn't work for you. Lastly, if you're having some issues managing your time, there's a couple things I suggest. First, consider doing an activity log or journal. This is where you keep a record of all the things you do throughout the day and how long you do them for. Not only does it include work tasks, but it also includes things like eating, social media, or even watching TV. This provides an accurate picture of what you do during your day and how you invest your time. Your activity log will help you understand whether or not you're doing your important work during the right time of day, and it also helps you clearly see how much time you're spending on things that aren't getting you towards your goals. So there's some of my time management hacks. Hopefully they help you get more organized and productive. If you try any of them, please be sure to reach out and let me know how it works for you. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On today's show, Zach and Ade discuss and expand on last week's D&I episode featuring Chris Moreland. They relate some interesting statistics and share a list of five important things to know to actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy.Connect with us on IG, Twitter, and Facebook!https://www.instagram.com/livingcorporate/https://twitter.com/LivingCorp_Podhttps://www.facebook.com/livingcorporatepodcastCheck out our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: Oh, man. What's going on, y'all? It is Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Sho are.Zach: [laughs] Yes, they are. Now, listen. It's funny. You know, we've been around for over a year, and--[both laugh] we've yet to explicitly talk about diversity and inclusion. I mean, our podcast is about--essentially about diversity and inclusion, right? But we've yet to talk about it, like, explicitly on this podcast, like, as a subject, and I find that kind of--kind of weird.Ade: Super weird. Super odd.Zach: Okay. Yeah, it's kind of odd. I mean, you would think it's kind of low-hanging fruit. It's, like, right there, you know? You know, we start off with these concepts and, you know, every-man topics, and we didn't really, like, go straight at it, you know? I don't know why we are just now getting into this. I don't know. Anyway, diversity and inclusion. Ade, what is--what is diversity and inclusion? Like, when we use the words "diversity and inclusion," like, what do we typically think of? Like, what are we--what are we talking about?Ade: We're talking about an actual effort by an organization, big or small, to ensure that their workplace, their groups, their team members, are representative of the world at large, that their spaces are not these homogeneous microcosms, and that they are really and truly including everybody in their missions. I think that would be my personal definition of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Well, you know, it's fire because you said homogeneous and microcosms back to back.Ade: Bloop. Get at me.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] No, I agree with that. You know, it's funny though, because often times I do believe that's the definition in theory, but a lot of times the term "diversity and inclusion" is just kind of used to make sure that folks don't get sued, right? Like, "We're not racist and we don't discriminate against people, so we're gonna use the term diversity and inclusion." You know what I'm saying? Like, if you look--I've seen some organizations--listen, I can't go into all of the details, but I've walked into a variety of companies, okay? And organizations can be as homogeneous as a pot of peas, okay?Ade: As a pot of peas...Zach: As a pot of peas. They all look the same. Everybody looks the same. [laughs] That's right. I'm country. I said it. A pot of peas. But on their website, oh, boy... boy, they got all the--all the jargon, all the lingo.Ade: Every stock photo of every [?] you can imagine.Zach: I see the same five black people in all of these diversity and inclusion photos.Ade: I mean, at least they have the common sense to actually have photos of people that they actually employ on their website. I have seen some egregious cases of literally stock photos on these websites.Zach: That's what I'm saying. That's what I've seen. I've seen the same--oh, I see what you--you thought I was saying the same black people on one website. No. Well, I've seen that too, but I'm saying I've seen the same stock photo images across multiple companies.Ade: Wow. Like, have you no shame? Have you no decency?Zach: [laughs] My goodness. There's millions of us out here. My gosh.Ade: There's literally billions, but I think the additional point, though, is that, like, it tells me what you value as an organization when you're willing to put more time and effort into planning your happy hours than you are into truly representing, not just racially but with the gender diversity makeup, the disability diversity makeup, with--like, there's so much that goes into thinking through what it means to have a diverse organization, and y'all will blow your HR budget on beer. And not even good beer.Zach: Not even good beer, lowkey.Ade: It drives me nuts that the conversation that we have about diversity and inclusion is about making it more palatable for everybody else as opposed to being like, "No, let's center this on what the truth of the matter is and what reality is as opposed to let's center this on what makes people comfortable."Zach: That's real. You're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but I feel you. I feel you.Ade: My bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good. I'm excited. I mean, like, now I'm activated, you know what I'm saying? I'm here. Let's go. [both laugh]Ade: Get active.Zach: But no, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting because--so I had, like, a crazy idea, right? So we know that companies actively--you know, like, when you look at black and brown unemployment, disabled unemployment, it is drastically higher, right, than majority unemployment. It would be dope though if companies, when they interviewed people and, like, they know--you know you're not about to hire that black or brown person, so you say, "Hey, listen, I'm not gonna hire you, but I'd love to take your picture for some of our diversity and inclusion stock photos."Ade: Excuse me? First of all, lawsuit. I'm not even gonna say anything. I'll just nod, smile, and, like, put Voice Memo on on my phone and just--Zach: [laughing] I couldn't even say that with a straight face, but it's--but you know what, though? There's some money in there somewhere, man. There's some business in there somewhere.Ade: All right. If you're done being ridiculous, let's focus.Zach: No, I'm not--listen, I'm not really being ridiculous, because as an--as an aside, y'all, I just read some article at random about this little 12-year-old white kid who was getting six-figure deals to create dances for rap songs, and then people buy the dances, and then, like, they pay him. But he's not doing--he's not doing new dances though.Ade: These dances he's creating are a compilation of dances that black people came up with.Zach: Black dances. Yes, yes.Ade: I just also--I think this is a separate conversation actually, but I wanted to have a conversation about what it means to monetize blackness divorced of black people.Zach: I'm here for it. Well, this is--so I feel like I'm--Ade: We're going down this rabbit hole.Zach: [laughs] We are, but no, seriously though, the reason I was being--I was, like, making a joke--it's kind of a joke, it's kind of not--is like, people are out here monetizing and getting bread off of this, off of the concept of D&I, without actually doing any D&I, right? And so I'm just saying, like, at least if you did that, you--at least some of these black people who are unemployed that have a little bit more money in their pocket while they look for their next job. I mean, something--I don't know. There's something there, but anyway. Okay, cool. So we've talked a little bit about what we think D&I is. We've done some research, right?Ade: Oh, actually, I also want to have another example of this.Zach: Yes, keep going.Ade: Did you see recently that Twitter Detroit posted a picture of their office space? And all white people. Every single person in that photo.Zach: Mm-mm, did not see that.Ade: Yeah, every single person in that photo was white. Now, I think it later came out that the--all of the black people that they had employed at Twitter Detroit was at NSBE, although I don't quite--I don't quite know the truth of that statement, but it was just a really striking photo, that you are in Detroit, a city that is 84 or 85% black...Zach: Detroit is black black.Ade: Blackity-black as hell.Zach: Detroit's the kind of black that makes other people, you know, kind of uncomfortable. [laughs] Like, it's black. It's a lot of black people.Ade: Kind of. Detroit--up until, like, three, four years ago, Detroit was the kind of black that these type of white people were not going into.Zach: I mean, to be--to be honest, that's true. That's true.Ade: Anyway, I say all of that--Zach: So they said all of the black people was at NSBE?Ade: I don't know if--again, this is not something that I did a ton of research into, because they posted an apology tweet attached to that first image... and I can read the tweet to you actually. It says, "We hear you on the lack of diversity. We're committed to making our company reflect the people we serve, and that includes here in Detroit. We've got a lot more work to do. We have a team at NSBE now, and we look forward to connecting with the amazing people there." I just have two questions. The first is there are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine maybe people in here, all of whom are white-presenting. There are a couple of people who are out of the photo or they have their backs turned, so I don't know necessarily how true that is, but it's incredible to me the--because I was able to see that photo, and obviously a lot of people were able to see that photo, and immediately see the problem, but what does it say of your organizations that you are so deeply homogeneous that you don't recognize right off the bat that, "Hey, we're in Detroit. Every single one of us in here is white. What does that say about this organization?Zach: Well, you know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say it's about diversity of thought, Ade. Diversity of thought.Ade: That's cute.Zach: [laughs]Ade: And let me not poo-poo that idea out the gate. Let us treat that as a serious, intellectual argument. Okay, so you were saying that diversity of thought is more important than physical diversity, gender diversity, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. However, what does it say that you think the only diversity that matters, diversity of thought that matters, is the kind of diversity of thought that represents you? Because there's no way you're telling me that you have the exact same thoughts and the exact same experiences and the exact same lens as, say, a black queer man who grew up in Detroit. There's just no--I don't believe that could ever be the case. Like, if you are from--if you're a queer man from midtown Chicago, you don't have the same thoughts as a queer man from Detroit. So I don't understand how that is even an argument that anyone could make, but I say all of that to say that diversity is important. So is inclusion, because it would suck even more if the person taking that photo had been a person of color or had been the only disabled person in the office or had been the only neuro-divergent person in the office, and they're not even included in the photo. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's--Zach: Oh, I hear you. Yeah. I'm letting you cook.Ade: There's so many different--[laughs] there's so many different--thank you, friend--there's so many different layers of complexity to that that on the one hand, why don't you have any of these--any of these types of diversity represented in your office? But also I don't know that it would be a safe space for anybody to walk up and say, "Oh, I'm the only black person in here." Having to represent at all times, that just sounds exhausting. So it's just--it's a very difficult conversation for me to--for me to really think through. Do you have some thoughts, friend?Zach: You know, I do, I do, and I appreciate you actually, like, slowing us down a little bit, 'cause I was gonna say that, you know, we did some research, right, and we've read a few things--just a couple thinkpieces, you know what I'm saying? Some Gallup data from the civil rights movement and some other things, you know what I'm saying? And labor data all around what does it really mean to be diverse and inclusive in an organization. And, you know, we've seen, like, you know, five things organizations are doing wrong, the top three reasons why D&I doesn't work, you know, what makes an effective D&I organization, what makes an effective D&I strategy, da-da-da-da-da, and so, look, as opposed to us reading all of our--all of the findings that we've had and just kind of reading it to you--boring, right--we decided--we, Living Corporate, right, Zach and Ade--decided to give y'all our own list of what you need to know about diversity and inclusion so that you can actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy. Yo, JJ. Drop the Flex bomb. Whoa.Ade: Not the flex bomb. [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Boom.Ade: I'm really looking forward to you being a dad, because you're just so equipped, and I'm tired of hearing your dad jokes.Zach: Nah, drop the Flex bomb. [dropping] In fact, JJ, drop it again. Yes.Ade: JJ, please stop. [he stops] Thank you.Zach: Nah, but it's--you know, it's important. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give y'all some game for free. We're gonna give you some of our thought leadership for nothing at all. All y'all gotta do is listen. I mean, come on. I ain't trying to brag, but I'm saying, like, we're pretty dope, right? Am I wrong, Ade?Ade: I mean, no.Zach: Okay, here we go. So how many of these do we have? We've got five, right?Ade: I mean, something like that, but you know we can always expand on our lists if we start riffing off each other, et cetera, et cetera. We got five. We got five on it.Zach: All right, we got five. We have five on it. We're not messing with that endo weed, because it's not federally legal, but we do have five on it. [both laugh] Okay, here we go. First things first. [Ade continues laughing] You're really laughing. That's funny. First things first, diversity and inclusion are two different things. I know.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars, I know. Diversity and inclusion are two different things. Often enough times, we kind of just throw the terms "diversity" and "inclusion," like, we just smack 'em together, but they're actually very different, right? So a lot of us understand what diversity is. Diversity is the concept of having a variety of experiences, perspectives, in gender representation, ethnic representation, able-bodied representation, sexual orientation representation, right? Like, geographic representation. Having different types of perspectives in a space. Like, that's the concept of--Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: [?] Sorry.Zach: It's good. Hey, JJ. Just cut all that out. That part is diversity, right? Inclusion though is different, right? Inclusion is not just about--it's not just about having people have a seat at the table, but making sure that those voices are actually heard at the table. And so a lot of times we'll say, "Well, inclusion means making sure people feel included." Inclusion means the power not only to sit at the table but to speak and have your voice equally heard at that table, right? And so it's not just enough to have a variety of voices at a table if only a certain number of voices or a certain type of voice is gonna be heard. Then it just kind of becomes, like, a dog and pony show, right? So no, I mean, that's really what it means, all right? Inclusion is all about making sure that those voices that have a seat at the table actually are heard, and typically, because of the hierarchical natures of these companies, voices that are not high on the totem pole are not heard, right? So it's about making sure that those voices are actually supported and given authority and access so that their ideas can be mobilized, right? I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion it's like, "Oh, we have you in the room," but you're, like, over in the corner, or you're just kinda--and it also just kind of makes you feel tokenized, right? It's about actually making sure you have a voice. So that's the first one. Diversity and inclusion is--the first one is people don't really understand that diversity and inclusion are two different things, and they don't understand what those words mean.Ade: My turn. So beyond, you know, expanding the table and inviting people to eat--that's one of the phrases that I've used to describe, or that I've heard used to describe, diversity and inclusion, empowering people. I also would like to make the point that it's not the responsibility of marginalized people to diversity your workplace. What I've seen happen time and time again is that these embattled corporations where people realize "Oh, no, we treated diversity and inclusion as an afterthought, and now everybody looks like [trash?]. What do we do?" And they will hire somebody, usually a high-profile person, black person or a queer woman, they'll bring these people in and do nothing to change the fact that the culture that fostered this homogeneity continues, and so--and in so doing make it the responsibility of this person that they invited into this hostile workplace, make it their responsibility to improve everything. And then when said person starts making points like, "Yeah, you really shouldn't be making rape jokes during our lunch hour. You shouldn't be making them at all, but it's especially not appropriate in the work space," or saying things like, "Yeah, I'm actually not gonna let you touch my hair, Karen. I don't want to do that, and you don't have my permission to do that, so great talk." They're treated as though they are the problem, and we don't address the institutional racism. We address the black women talking about the institutional racism. We don't address the institutional--just general lack of respect for people with disabilities, and it's something that you would know if you spoke to the people who are experiencing these things, but it is instead more expedient to pat yourselves on the back for your awesome allyship and employing someone in a wheelchair and doing nothing to ensure that this person in a wheelchair is safe, comfortable, and can do their job without feeling belittled or patronized or outright ignored. So to restate my point, it is not the responsibility of the marginalized person to do the work of diversity and inclusion. It's not their job. It is everybody's job to ensure that the workplace is open and accessible.Zach: That's good. That's good.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] You like that. That makes you--that makes you giggle. Bars makes you laugh. I've noticed that over the past few episodes here. Okay, my turn. So in the spirit of your last point, my third--the third entry here is that diversity and inclusion will only go as far as the majority allows it to go, okay? So I'ma say it again. Diversity and inclusion will go...Ade: Bars.Zach: Only [laughs] as far as the majority allows it to go. So what do I mean by this? Let me give y'all some statistics from some Gallup polls back in 1961, in the throes of our U.S. civil rights movement. I'm gonna give y'all a few data points. Here we go. Do you approve--and this is a poll, right, a Gallup poll, given to white folks in 1961, again, in the middle of the civil rights movement. Here we go. "Do you approve or disapprove of what the Freedom Riders are doing?" 22% approved, 61% disapproved, 18% had no opinion. Here's another one. "Do you think sit-ins at lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes will hurt or help the Negroes' chance of being integrated in the south?" 57% said they believe it will hurt, 28% said it will help, 16% said no opinion. Here's the last one, okay? This is the [Survey Research Amalgam?]. This is April, 1963. "Some people feel that in working for equal rights for Negroes, Reverend Martin Luther King is moving too fast. Others think he is not working fast enough. What do you think?" 8% said he's moving too fast. 71% said he's moving at the right speed. 21% said he isn't moving fast enough. And so, you know, when we talk about--when we talk about, like, historically, right, civil rights, not just for African-Americans, but it's the easiest one for us to point to because historically, like, when you kind of--like, there's the most data points around it, and, you know, really, if we were to go by the data and the survey data and what people were really comfortable with, then we would still probably not really be--I mean, we're not really integrated, but we wouldn't have even the civil rights laws we have, right? And I think an uncomfortable reality is when you talk about diversity and inclusion and you talk about creating a truly diverse and inclusive working environment, it can only go as far as the majority is comfortable with it going, right? And when you think about the fact that--like, when you look at the civil rights laws, and you especially look--if you look at our present, right, like, we're fighting to maintain some very basic civil rights laws that we achieved over 50 years ago, just over 50 years ago, like, and we haven't really made, in terms of legislation, much progress since then. In fact, again, we're fighting just to keep what we established 50 years ago, and really, if you think about historically, what we fought to get 50 years ago, we should have already had, like, 50 to 60 years before that. And so, you know, I think that's--like, again, just kind of pointing to your point--like, really reinforcing your point around the fact that, like, it's not--it's not about making people comfortable. It's not about, like, just kind of checking a box, and ultimately, it's gonna take all of us, but the majority, to drive and make sure that we're actually moving forward. It can't be the responsibility of the marginalized to move the needle. We don't have the numbers. We don't have the power.Ade: Facts.Zach: So that's number three. I'm volleying it back to you.Ade: Okay. I think I'm gonna expand on a point that I made at the end of my last--my last rant. So diversity and inclusion is all of our responsibility. It is not a position. It is not--the term Chris Moreland used was a function, and it's also not about how good it makes individual people feel. It's not about the money that it makes for the organization. Like, sure, yes, there are stats out there that show how good it is to have a diverse workplace, but--and I'm starting to realize that it's really not a common thing or a common opinion anymore to do things because they're the right thing to do. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis on this, and that's trash.Zach: That's really trash.Ade: Yeah, I don't--I don't know what's happening. Maybe I shouldn't say that. I know what's happening. It's capitalism.Zach: Right.Ade: But the point is that diversity and inclusion is about you as the individual respecting the whole of other people who are individuals in your workspaces and recognizing when there are individuals who aren't welcome in your workplace and doing something to change that. Even beyond what it means to be an ally. You are actively doing the work of being a good human being and encouraging others in your workplace to do the same. I think I--when we were working on the Disabled At Work episode, I read a story about a guy who got a job working at one of these big tech companies, and he just knew it was gonna suck, right? Because when he had interviewed there, he did not see anybody who was wheelchair-bound as he was, and he had a very large electric wheelchair, and he was like, "I can't turn it down because of the money, but I feel like this is not going to be great." But he then told stories of how everybody was inclusive. They would ensure that he could get his scooter up and down these hills in San Francisco. They would ensure that he wasn't just stuck being wet when it rained or that he could have a standing desk as opposed to the lower desk that wouldn't work for his electrical chair. So there were all of these different parts of what it means to be inclusive, and not just empowering and recognizing the diversity in your coworkers, but also saying--taking it a step further and being like, "I'm right there with you." Like, "Whatever it is that you need in order to feel comfortable in this space, in order to feel human in this space--" Like, we gotta be here at least 8 hours a day, dogg. Like, the least we can do is ensure that you are your whole self while you're here, and I think that is such a significant thing to highlight. It's such a significant thing because it very, very easily goes unspoken that you have a responsibility to your coworkers to not just be kind but be supportive.Zach: You know, I think a large part of diversity and inclusion just comes--like, a large part of it is driven by empathy, right? Like, really--and I know that Chris talked about this too in the interview. It was just about, like, understanding someone's story. Like, building a connection with them. Like, really understanding them. It's challenging for me though, because, like--and I really--I love what Chris is doing, not only at Vizient but with his own start-up--with his own start-up at Storytellers, you know, but I don't have to hear your story, right, like, for me to treat you and recognize that you're a human being, you know what I'm saying? Like, I shouldn't have to. I get it. I get it from a relationship-building perspective. Maybe I need to hear your story for us to, like, really build trust, but I shouldn't have to hear your story for us to, like--for me to just empathize and recognize that you breathe--you're breathing and walking, or--you're breathing and existing and having a human experience just like me. It's heartbreaking, to be honest, when I think about it like that. But okay, cool. So last one. I think I'm--I think it's on me.Ade: Most definitely.Zach: All right. So really kind of pigging--piggy-backing off of my first point, but it's really important. Ayo, if you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Say it again. If you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Listen, it's not enough for organizations just to hire non-majority people, right? Because often times if you look at the turnover rate of non-majority employees, they're significantly higher than majority employees, and if you do a cross-analysis with non-majority turnover and minority representation, you'll see some connections--you'll see some connections there, right? Like, you'll see in organizations that are not truly inclusive, that do not have representation and some level of power, distribution of power for non-majority people, those organizations struggle to retain non-majority talent, and I think something to continue to keep in mind--organizations, I'm talking to y'all--listen, man, these gener--like, millennials and these Generation Z, the people coming behind us, we're aware. Like, we pay attention, and we're sensitive to that. Like, we peep game. Like, we're gonna look and be like, "Oh, there's no--there's none of me here. I don't see myself here. Okay, so I know I probably got only so much time to go before I gotta find somewhere to be," or when something goes wrong or they feel like they're not getting the coaching that they need or they're not getting the development that they need or they're getting passed over for promotion, if they don't feel like they can talk to somebody and they're not represented in the decision--in that pool of people that actually make the decisions and make the company grow and grow, then they're not gonna feel like they can talk to anybody, and they're gonna leave, right? They're gonna be even more discouraged to, like, even try to stay, because they'll be like, "For what? I'ma be the--I'm the only person here." They're not gonna be as comfortable when it comes to networking and trying to build relationships and--Ade: Correct.Zach: Right? Because they don't know who they can talk to. Like--and then, like, many of us, we're the first people from our families in Corporate America. That's my story. Ade, is that your story?Ade: Like, only one.Zach: Exactly. [laughs]Ade: Solo dolo.Zach: Solo dolo, and so, like, ayo, like, inclusion is important, and I guess part B to this one is listen, diversity of thought by itself is not real. Okay? That's right. I'm giving y'all two, so we got six now. Diversity of thought is not--diversity of thought on its own is not real. It's a term that some group of people in some laboratory made up just to kind of pat themselves on the back and create diversity where there really isn't any.Ade: Not a laboratory.Zach: [laughs] They made crack and diversity of thought in the same place. What's up?Ade: I am...Zach: JJ, give me them air horns right here. [laughs]Ade: Okay. Okay, [?].Zach: Nah, but for real though, like, it's not real. Like, so diversity of thought is as relevant as diversity of experience, and if you look at American history, experiences are sharply divided along racial, gender, and sexual orien--lines of sexual orientation. Ade, you got another one?Ade: Just a final thought.Zach: Do your thing.Ade: I think that paying lip service to diversity is almost worse than not doing anything and not paying attention to diversity and inclusion in the first place, because you--when you pay lip service to diversity, you delude people into thinking your workplace is a safe space and that they can come to your jobs and bring their own selves and come and do what they love to do for you. When you don't even pretend, it lets everybody know who to avoid. When you pay lip service and you end up being these ultra-toxic, ultra-just all around disgusting places for people, it's almost heartbreaking, right, because people want to come into these places and do good work and go home and love their families, and instead they come into these places, you gaslight them, pretend that nothing is actually happening when, you know, they're facing all of these micro-aggressions, they are being passed up for promotions, their careers are stalling, and they have no allies and no way out. It's a pretty abusive relationship, I'd call that, and even further than that I would say that, you know, you're actively oppressing them in that scenario. So I say all of that to say that if you know that you have no investment whatsoever in diversity and inclusion and the success of everybody--and the growth, too, of all of these folks, then just leave us alone. Love us or leave us alone. That's all I ask.Zach: No, real talk though. No lukewarm DM--no lukewarm stuff, right? Be hot or cold. Either you're in or you're out.Ade: The man came through with a word from the church for y'all.Zach: [laughs]Ade: Don't think I didn't notice, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Man, okay. Well, y'all, so this has been a dope B-Side, just sharing our thoughts about the interview with Chris Moreland. Really enjoyed him, and yeah. Ade, anything else? Do we want to do Favorite Things? Are we good?Ade: My Favorite Thing right now--we can if you have something.Zach: I got something. Go ahead, yeah.Ade: Okay. Okay, so my current Favorite Thing is the voice of a young reggae artist known as Koffee. Love, love, love--I have just been listening to her on repeat lately and finding out--finding her music, where I can find her, but amazing. I love her.Zach: That's what's up.Ade: That's it for my Favorite Things.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, you know--Ade: Oh, wait. I lied.Zach: Keep going. Go crazy.Ade: Sorry, one other Favorite Thing. I have this book I'm currently reading. It is the AWS Certified Solutions Architect Study Guide.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, it's my second Favorite Thing. It's just a personal--as a reminder to myself to keep working.Zach: I respect that. Okay, okay. I have one Favorite Thing, and this Favorite Thing, it's--you know, it's something that I partake in every day. It's actually a beverage, and this beverage--this beverage is called kombucha.Ade: Oh, I thought you were gonna say water. I was about to be like--Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. I definitely do drink water every day though, and shout-out--ayo, if you're listening to this, go ahead and get yourself some water. I don't care what time it is. Ayo, get some water and take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip. Okay, so--[both laugh] Okay, so--Ade: Some ASMR peer pressure for your head top.Zach: That was incredible. Yo, we should actually do an ASMR episode of us just, like, drinking water quietly. [whispering] "Ah." [like his thirst was quenched, laughs]Ade: No. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: "Ah, these ice cubes." We could, like--no, but seriously though, 'cause we got these--these mics are pretty good. Like, we could just take--like, make sure the ice hits the glass. Clink, clink, clink. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, all soft. All right, so listen here. Kombucha--and please don't--y'all, don't kill me in the comments if I'm saying it wrong. I'm country. Forgive me. It is a fermented, slightly--only slightly--alcoholic green or black tea drink, okay? It is so good. Like, think about it like--it's like a soda. It's like a healthy soda, right? And there's--Ade: [?]Zach: Say it again?Ade: I wouldn't go that far, a healthy soda.Zach: You wouldn't go that far? It's like a healthy soda.Ade: No, it's not.Zach: It's carbonated. It has some bite to it.Ade: You know what? You're right. Who are me to disagree with your Favorite Thing? My bad.Zach: [laughs] It's so good though, y'all, and it's like--and so, like, you know, it comes in all kinds of flavors. You can--and it's a fermented tea, right? So you take the tea, and it's fermented, and then you put, like--you know, you can put whatever you want in there to flavor it. So, like, I'll--my favorite flavor is ginger-ade. It's like ginger and lemon and honey and fermented, like, fermented with the kombucha. Man, it is so good, and it's low-calorie, right? So, like, a bottle--like, the same amount of this drink that would be, like, I don't know, 200 calories in soda is, like, 50 calories. And it's good for your digestion, so it helps keep you regular. That's right, we're talking about health. We talk about wellness on this podcast, so part of wellness is making sure that you're regular. Come on, Ade. You know what I'm talking about.Ade: Please leave me out of this narrative.Zach: [laughs] But it's important, y'all. It's important. It's important to be regular, and so anyway, kombucha, it helps. It has those live cultures and bacteria for your stomach, and it's just delicious. It's just so good. So yeah, that's my Favorite Thing. I don't have a brand, 'cause we don't have no sponsors for kombucha yet, just like, you know, Capital City Mambo Sauce ain't wanna show us any love, but we still love y'all. It's okay, it's okay, but I'm not giving no more free ads, okay? So I'm not gonna talk about the brand. I'ma just say I like kombucha. Or is kam-buka? What is it?Ade: I'm pretty sure it's kombucha.Zach: Okay, cool. I just wanted to make sure I said it right.Ade: But then you said it really, really wrong, so I really don't know if you saying it right in the first place even counts.Zach: [laughs] Dang, that's jacked up. You're supposed to be my peace.Ade: No, sir, I'm not. Candice would have my head.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I just--first of all, that was a setup. Secondly--I forgot everything I was about to say because I was--I was so startled and taken aback at that--at that statement, wow. Candice, if you're listening to this, I don't want [?]. That is all.Zach: Candice gonna show up--Candice gonna show up to D.C. with that Yao Ming on her all 'cause of me being silly, and I apologize.Ade: All of the choppas just aimed in my direction, and I want none of it. I'm good.Zach: Yeah, nah, 'cause I'm joking. It's jokes, it's jokes. Candice don't listen to this podcast.Ade: Wait a minute. Now [?].Zach: [laughs]Ade: All right, y'all. That does it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and please subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question for us that you'd like us to read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. We're also taking any wins that you've had lately. We're taking any [refuse?], any thoughts that you'd like to share with us. That's it for us. This has been Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

On the tenth entry of Tristan’s Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield details the importance of getting it in writing. He focuses on three key areas this often comes into play.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumeTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today let's talk about the importance of getting things in writing, A.K.A. having your receipts. When I started at my current job, my boss said, "You really like to get things in writing, don't you?" And while that question is rhetorical, the answer is "Uh, yes." I've been burnt in the past, so I've learned from my mistakes, and I wanted to make sure that I always had something to refer to. Getting things in writing ensures not only that everyone is clear but that you're also covering yourself. There are so many times where getting it in writing comes into play, but I'm gonna focus on three. Have you ever led or been on a project where people weren't clear about their responsibilities? That is the worst, but imagine if you put everyone's duties in writing and distributed them out to the team. Some of the confusion wouldn't happen, and even if it does, there's more accountability as everyone was made aware of who was responsible for what and had the opportunity to question it. The next situation where getting it in writing could come in handy is during a meeting with your boss. Sometimes these meetings are scheduled and sometimes they're not, but either way, I always suggest sending a follow-up email summarizing the topics of discussion, no matter if you were discussing a new project you'll be taking on, getting their approval for PTO, or even talking about your best sales incentive. If they don't respond, you'll have a record to refer to at any given point in time, and it puts the onus on them to correct anything you may have misunderstood. Lastly, I know when you get that verbal offer for a new job, you want to quit your current job right in that moment, but do not until you receive that offer in writing. I've seen this go wrong one too many times with candidates just like yourself ending up burnt. You don't want to have to retract your resignation and end up looking like a fool. Also, make sure you get any contingencies, like a signing bonus or 90-day bonus in writing, too so you can hold your employer to it. There are so many instances where getting it in writing can not only help you out, but really could save you from so much turmoil. Do yourself a favor and start documenting things a bit more so you can pull out those receipts. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Moreland, the chief diversity and inclusion advocate at Vizient. He explains why he puts inclusion first and talks about the top three things most companies are getting wrong when it comes to D&I.Connect with Chris on LinkedIn!https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjmoreland/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: It's Ade.Zach: So listen, y'all, we gonna get straight to it this time, 'cause we have a really special guest. I'm really excited. Today we have the opportunity--we had the opportunity rather to sit down and speak with Chris Moreland. He's the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient Incorporated, based out of Dallas, Texas, and I'm just gonna read a little bit of his profile so we can kind of talk about what we're talking about today. Known for possessing a contagious regard for winning, a bias for action and a healthy disrespect for insurmountable challenges. A street-smart C-level leader with a diverse industry background, an indispensable partner for innovative organizations, people development, and building teams. Chris is best known for leading organizations through change, developing innovative solutions, and deciphering ambiguity. He established a track record of performance and execution at Fortune 500 icons like Vizient, Microsoft, Expedia, General Electric, Johnson & Johnson, Pepsi, and Mobil, okay? So this person that we got to speak to today, he and I had an amazing conversation about inclusion and diversity, and in the conversation that you're gonna hear, you'll hear why he puts inclusion first, but we're really excited and want y'all to hear the whole interview, and so we don't want to make it too long by, you know, adding to it, so--Ade: We're gonna keep it short and sweet.Zach: That's right, we're gonna keep it short and sweet. So unfortunately, Ade, no Favorite Things this week.Ade: Nope, but we have an amazing, amazing, amazing interview, so it's good.Zach: It's dope. And after the interview, you know, we'll wrap from there, but the next week we've got a B-Side, and it's me and Ade talking about the interview, talking about D&I, and, you know, having fun. Hopefully y'all laugh. Maybe y'all will cry. Maybe you'll laugh and cry at the same time. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe. [strange noise]Ade: What was that noise? [laughs]Zach: It was like a [strange noise]. It was a shrug. That's, like, a shrug if I was to put a noise to it. [again]Ade: I'm gonna pass on your sound effects skills once again.Zach: Man, my sound effects skills are fire, but that's okay. In fact, you know what? Hold on. JJ, go ahead and give me some air horns, one time for ya head top, for Chris Moreland, 'cause he gave us a fire interview. [imitating air horns] Let's go. [JJ drops 'em] I'm giving him the air horns before we even get to the interview. That's how fire the interview was. What's up?Ade: Look, I don't disagree. Shout-out to Chris. Amazing conversation.Zach: Shout-out to Chris.Ade: You on the other hand are a walking dad joke store.Zach: Yo, I really feel like--so watching that movie Us, I really feel as if that character that ya mans was playing was really just me in, like, five years with no beard, but that's me.Ade: Like, Winston Duke's character?Zach: Yes, I feel like that's me.Ade: I have not heard great reviews, so you probably should not--Zach: No, first of all, Us is fire, and we can talk about that later.Ade: Well, not--you know what? Yes, let's close this out.Zach: So shout-out to Chris, shout-out to Vizient, and yo, shout-out to him being the chief storyteller at Storyteller's Consulting. He's gonna talk a little bit about that in the interview as well, and we'll make sure we have all of this information in the podcast notes, but look, until next week, it's been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Zach: Y'all check out this interview. Peace.Ade: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And so as we shared before the break, we have Chris Moreland on the show. Chris, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Chris: I'm fantastic. Thanks so much, Zach.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself and how you got into your field?Chris: Absolutely. Well, my name is Chris Moreland. I reside in Dallas, Texas, and I am now the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient. Vizient is basically a supply chain company that does GPO for health care systems. We do about 100--maybe 105, 110 billion dollars worth of hospital spend on an annual basis.Zach: That's awesome. You know, I guess for me--so let me just say as a quick aside, and this isn't even in my questions, but I just wanted to say it--it's really inspiring to see a person of color, and frankly a black man, in such a position of influence, and I'm just really excited to have you here. So I probably should've said that at the beginning. I don't really care. This is our show. I just want to tell you that I'm happy that you're here.Chris: It's good to be here. It's good to be here.Zach: Absolutely. So look, let's get into it. So I'm on this app, right, called Fishbowl, and it's an anonymous posting app for consultants. Every now and then diversity and inclusion comes up, and most are disillusioned by the topic because it's being seen as a lot of talk and very little walk. So what do you think are some of the top three things most companies are getting wrong when they talk about diversity and inclusion?Chris: Right. That's a really good question, Zach, and it's not a simple answer, but I'll try to simplify the answer. There are several things that companies are not getting right, and if you--if you look at the most recent research, I think it points to some very important things that I think, going forward, we really need to focus on. The first thing is that most companies tend to put diversity and inclusion into the bucket of human resources as though it is part of a function which is different than the function of marketing, which is different than the function of, you know, research and development, which would be different than the function of sales. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes, by putting it specifically in a function. The second thing that I think goes wrong often times with the way companies approach diversity and inclusion is around--they use education as a way of changing behaviors, and we can talk about this a lot more later, but education has been proven now as being the least credible way of changing a human being's behavior, okay? And then the third piece, which I think a lot of people get wrong as far as diversity and inclusion, is how they think about diversity and inclusion relative to accountability. It's one thing to talk about it, but it's a whole 'nother thing when no one ultimately is accountable for the changes that they would like to make relative to diversity and inclusion.Zach: Expound upon that a bit more if you could.Chris: Absolutely. So the first piece around which function generally owns diversity and inclusion, and that being human resources. The reason why that normally doesn't vet out very well for companies is that the organization then feels like their [?] human resource officer is ultimately responsible for diversity and inclusion, and that's an error. Diversity and inclusion should be part of every function. It should be part of the culture of the organization. It should not be quarantined off into a specific function, because it should flow just like values, just like goals, just like culture. It should be part of the way we do business. It should be used as an enabler, not as a functionally-constrained part of an organization. You know, the second piece, which points education--education, as you know, is something that people try to use to make different decisions and result in different behaviors, but as you know if you've ever gone to church, if you've ever seen students in school, education doesn't necessarily mean that once a person knows what they should do, knows the right thing to do, understands the impact of certain actions, that they are going to then adopt those habits, those practices. Each of us go to church every Sunday, and we--depending upon what denomination you may be part of, but you can see the same church crowd that sits in the pews on Sunday, they go out and cut each other off in traffic immediately following the service in some cases, and so it's--you know, it's a bad way of thinking that "I'm going to change the behavior by telling you the right thing to do." And in the last piece, which is what I call just accountability, is that, you know, again, if it's in HR, a lot of times HR feels accountable solely, but no one else in the organization feels as though they have any accountability. They feel as though it has been quarantined off and thus there is a function that is accountable for it, but that is the only function that ultimately becomes accountable for it in that instance, so yeah.Zach: Man, that's incredible. When you and I first met, we talked about diversity and inclusion, and you told me--you said, "Zach, you know, a lot of times people get those letters--the order of those letters wrong, and they should be putting inclusion first." So let me ask you this - what does inclusion really mean practically, and how can companies actualize inclusion in the workplace?Chris: Right. So inclusion, in my title and at least at Vizient, we actually put that word in front of diversity, because inclusion has more to do with the actions that you are taking. Inclusion has to do with "Who's in the conversation? Is the conversation being had? Does everyone's perspective, opinions, and backgrounds matter? Is there value seen in my difference?" Not "Am I different?" Diversity, which really comes from a Latin root word meaning "divertere," or "to divert, to separate." It's the differences between us. It's pretty much meaningless in any organization unless you have the inclusion part first, and the inclusion means that I see you, I see your differences, and I see the value in those differences, and ultimately I don't want to move forward with any decision, with any strategy, with any proposal, until I get all different sides of this idea understood and heard, because understanding that when I am inclusive I actually get a much better outcome. It should always precede diversity. Diversity by itself is pretty meaningless unless it is preceded by inclusion.Zach: Yeah. No, absolutely, and so I'm curious - what methods have you seen that are effective when it comes to organizations really leaning into the inclusion piece of their I&D strategy?Chris: Right. That's a great question, because there is a--there is a huge difference. It's like night and day when it comes to organizations and effectiveness of those organizations when you do lead with inclusion. A couple of practices. One, there is--there are very few human beings that I've met thus far who are openly and consciously biased. In other words, open and conscious bias means that I see you, I see your differences, and I am absolutely just going to deliberately exclude those differences from my decisions, from my thoughts, from my practices, from my campaigns and everything else. When I lead with inclusion, what it does is it says I understand that I have this subconscious, this subliminal, this unconscious ability or need or desire to assimilate with those things that look similar to me, and we all have this in our personalities. We all want to assimilate with like things. We want to be around people who look like us, act like us, talk like us, have the same backgrounds as us, because it makes us more comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in order to actively have an inclusive culture, you have to understand that it's an uphill battle. It goes against our natural tendencies, and so when organizations actually adopt a truly inclusive culture, it doesn't start with just education, making people aware of the subconscious knack to go away from things that are not like you. It actually does more than that. It goes to creating an understanding of what those differences are and why and how those differences can and should be used to create greater value. I'm not talking about, in this case, educating you on unconscious bias. I think you may remember more recently in the news Starbucks had a situation with one of their restaurants, and they shut their stores down for an entire half-day, and what they did was they focused on educating people on unconscious bias. So there was a training that was done around unconscious bias, and the net effect of that training based on all research is that it had a shelf life of about 90 minutes.Zach: 90 min--an hour and a half?!Chris: 90--an hour and a half. It had a shelf life of 90 minutes, but then our natural, innate tendencies go back to exactly the way we were before we were exposed to that education and training. And so the good thing is that they at least acknowledged that there needed to be something done. The bad thing is that they're using the same tools that we used in 1962, in this country, in order to make civil rights the rights of everyone, and you can see, you know, 50 some odd years later, the outcomes are the same. It's because the techniques and the practices are the same. A lot of it is education, and then the second piece to that is legislation. So when you educate and legislate, you believe that, "Oh, things are going to change." They don't change. These are behavioral tendencies that we have to tap into in order to try and counteract things and make people's behaviors actually change.Zach: Well, see, it's interesting that you say that because--in terms of the historical lens by which you're looking through to discuss inclusion and diversity and facilitating change, because I don't necessarily know if I--if I see a lot of the historical narrative being engaged when we talk about effective methods and approaches to really driving inclusion and diversity, and often times, in my experience, these programs rarely even engage the subject of race explicitly, even to the point where they may create, like, different points of diversity. Like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, and yes, I'm not saying that those points don't exist, Chris, but historically, like, those points, they're strongly interwoven with the intersection of gender and ethnicity, right? But I don't know if I necessarily 1. see a lot of invoking of history when we talk about education and effective methods moving forward in the future, and I don't know if I see a lot of--in fact, sometimes I hear diversity of thought or diversity of education or diversity of background really used as replacements for diversity of race and intersection between--intersectionality of gender and race. Have you seen that? And if you kind of see where I'm coming from, why do you think that is?Chris: Yeah. So let me answer both questions pretty quickly, and then I'll get into a little detail. So the answer is yes and yes. Yes, I have seen it happen. Yes, it is very, very frustrating, and yes, I do understand why it is happening the way that it is happening, because--first let's go back to the terms of diversity and inclusion and why most people tend to use the word diversity preceding the word inclusion. It is because it is a lot easier for me to point out all of the differences between, you know, the 7.5 billion people that are in this world. I can tell you there are differences for all of us, and we should all be aware of and appreciative of all of those differences, but let's think about that at a neurological level, because that's where change happens. It happens at a neurological level. So Zach, if you walk into a room, and a person who walks into a room--and you're originally from where, Texas?Zach: Yes.Chris: Okay, so you're originally from Texas. So you walk into a room, and then right next to you a straight Caucasian male walks into the room, and his background just happens to not be from Texas. Let's say he's from L.A., okay? So he has diversity of experience. You have diversity of race. You both walk into the same room, and you're both seen by a group of executives that are sitting around the table that you're about to engage. Sitting around that table, what do you physically think the reaction will be of your presence versus your male straight white counterpart's presence who just happens to be from L.A.? Both having diversity, you know, based on just them walking into the room. And again, the audience--let's say the audience is full of Texans, okay? So if you--go ahead. Please answer that question, and then I can go on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, I think--I think that if it's all Texans and they are, let's say, all white men, I think they're gonna gravitate and presume that the white--my white counterpart is the more senior, more competent authority in the space.Chris: Exactly. There are a certain set of assumptions that go into your brain, in other people's brains, the second you or I walk into a room. The second you or I walk into a bus, the second you or I walk into an elevator. And again, I do not blame the neuroscience behind the minds of the individuals who make assumptions as soon as you or I walk into a room, but it is very different when I used the word diversity talking about race versus when I use the word diversity and I talk about a person's background or a person's education, because certain people have certain assumptions that are attributed to their physical being. They can't help it. You can't help what I think about when I look at you as you walk into a room. You have no control over that. It's just like the white straight male from L.A. cannot help what I may think about him when he walks into the room, but some of these assumptions, some of these thoughts, some of these implicit biases are nothing--they have nothing to do with who's standing in front of you, okay? So I think--going back to your question, I think a lot of times--in the field of diversity and inclusion we've now migrated away from the cornerstone of diversity and inclusion, which had everything to do with gender and race, and we've migrated now to diversity of thought, diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of a lot of different things, and I'm not saying any of those things are wrong, but I am saying that neurologically, when I think about the word diversity, the reason why I believe we have to go back to the cornerstone of diversity, which has everything to do with gender and race, because of that reaction when you walked into the room with your white male counterpart. Until I can get this country and individuals in corporate America past the fact that they have no control over that implicit bias associated with that initial impression, then I cannot move forward and start thinking about other forms of diversity because there is an implicit association associated with just your physical presence that, quite frankly, has a stereotype associated with it, and it has a whole set of thoughts and assumptions associated with just your physical presence, which is where I think the work needs to be done, which is where I think we need to start building from.Zach: So you've made mention about making authentic connections and those neuropathic pathways. I'd love to hear more about that. When we first spoke, like, you talked about that. I'd love to hear more about that, because as you and I know, the real change happens at the executive level. So one, please expound a little bit about those pathways and those genuine, like, connections, and then what methods have you seen be effective in driving that sort of openness to be connected outside of one's comfort zone at, like, the top and highest of levels?Chris: Wow. So big question. [both laugh] I'm gonna start with three words, and then I'm gonna dive into each of those words just briefly so I can uncover some of what you've asked. The first word I want to talk about is a word called covering. The second word, or words, I want to talk about is safe place, and then the third word that I want to talk to you about is change and change management, okay? And these are all different, but they're all connected. So covering, let's start off with that. The reason why men and women who look like you and I, who work in corporate America, spend a large percentage of their time covering is because we understand that there are certain stigmas associated with our physical presence and there's no getting around it. The reason why you or I might not necessarily be as open to talk about some of our childhood experiences in the corporate setting is because we do not feel as though they are appropriate, and so we hide them, we cover them. Covering is an actual term that was coined back in the mid-'60s by a sociologist who talked about stigmas associated with all different types of people, and we all have them, you know? Straight white men also have the habits of covering, but they are a lot deeper when it comes to some of the underrepresented races in this country. So if you're either foreign background or of a heritage that puts you into a category as far as being called brown of some sort or shade in this country, you spend a lot of your physical energy covering, covering up who you authentically are, because you do not feel as though it's appropriate. You do not feel that you will have a good opportunity to assimilate unless you cover. And covering goes across the board. It's everything from how you groom yourself to, you know, as you're getting older, some of us, you know, color the gray hairs that may be popping out of our heads, and others of us cover even things like our bodies. Our bodies are a lot of times covered. There's a--the first billionaire female in this country made a billion dollars by covering women. It's the woman who started the SPANX brand in this country. The first billionaire woman under 40, I believe it is. SPANX. SPANX is nothing more than us having an openly bias toward a thinner physical person, and thus SPANX helps us do that, and so we like to cover the fact that we are not necessarily of a certain physicality, and we hide that through things like SPANX. So covering is where a lot of this starts. Go ahead. You have a question.Zach: I was gonna say--you were talking about SPANX. You know, it kind of reminds me of the first black--the first black female billionaire, Madam C.J. Walker, right?Chris: Absolutely, absolutely.Zach: Right? With selling perms and relaxers, right? Like, that was--I think that kind of falls into the bucket of covering. Please continue though. This is amazing.Chris: Yeah. No, you've hit something that is extremely important. I wasn't gonna talk about it because a lot of us suffer from this, but the reason why weaves, the reasons why straight hair, the reason why the European look for African-Americans in this country has been such a phenomenon and has made so many millionaires and billionaires in this country, is because of this thing called covering. When we view something as being the way that we need to better assimilate, we spend our entire lives trying to fit that image, trying to mold ourselves into the image of what we want to assimilate into. We bleach our skin. We straighten our hair. We change the way our body is shaped, all with an effort to cover who we actually are. So a lot of this starts with the idea of [or phenomenon?] called covering. Let me move to the second piece, which is safe space. Safe space is what your executive leaders at every major corporation in this country need to create in order for other people not to feel the need to cover. A safe space is basically an environment or a culture where inclusion is part of what they just do. Inclusion means that I am going to allow you to show up and be your authentic self because I think there is so much value in that. "Chris, I want you to come to work. I want you to dress, act like, be like, you know, fashion yourself after who you really are versus who you believe we want you to be, because we see value in that. We see and understand the value of your differences. We want to know who you are really, and through that story we're actually going to use it to create a better organization, a better company, a better culture." So the idea of creating a safe space can only be done when senior leaders see and understand the influence that they have on an organization and in a culture. If you've ever been in an organization where you felt like there were certain things you can't do, you can't say, certain ways that you just can't act--and not because they're inappropriate, but just because the leader, who creates the culture, has already deemed certain things as being inappropriate, and if you've been in any corporation in this country you know, depending upon which company you're a part of, there's certain things that are just not allowed, and those certain things often times are usually authentic parts of who you are. They're not abusive. They're not distasteful. They're just part of who you naturally are. One key example is my administrative assistant, who for the longest time had been wearing hair pieces and weaves and wigs and everything else, and she had been working for me for about two years, and she called me one weekend in almost a panic, and I answered the phone and I said, "What's going on? What's happening?" And she just happens to be African-American, and she said, "Chris, I'm going to text you a picture of me, and I want you to let me know if it's okay." I said, "Okay," and I thought it was--I thought it had more to do with clothing that she was wearing. She texted me a picture of her wearing her natural hair.Zach: Oh, wow.Chris: Wearing her natural hair, and she said, "Is it okay if I show up to work on Monday without my wigs?" And I said to her--and I'm not gonna use her name 'cause I don't want to embarrass her on this podcast, but I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "You look beautiful." I said, "You look like my sister. You look like my daughter. You look like my mother. You look like my friend. You look like the person who is my partner at work, and I love your authentic self." I said, "Do not ever feel like you have to cover who you are to show up at work." She says, "Well, I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate," and I told her--I said, "You are beautiful as you are. Please show up just like the picture has you," and again, all she did was allow her hair to be natural, and it was just curly, a little kinky, but it was the cutest, most beautiful picture I have ever seen, and since time she has worn her natural hair every day of the week.Zach: That's beautiful, yeah.Chris: Exactly. I could not make this story up. So as a senior leader, your job, your accountability, is to create a safe space so that people who are different can actually show up as themselves. The third piece that I would talk to you a little bit about is called accountability or change management, and when I say change management/accountability, what that to me says is that's, again, the job of the senior leaders in the organization, and that has more to do with if they show up as what I call Pepsi perfect, then they have already set the standard. If they do not or are not willing to show any humility or vulnerability, then no one else will feel like they can make mistakes or be vulnerable. They set the stage, the culture, for the organization and how the organization is going to evolve, and when they believe that they have to be perfect or show up perfect or set requirements such that there can be no mistakes, then you get very unauthentic, unengaged people showing up. The last piece of your question was methodology, and "Chris, how do you think we can use--what methodology have you used to try to create this environment of safety, this culture of inclusion and the ability for people to show up authentically?" And I'll tell you, it starts at the neurological level, and that is it has everything to do with your ability to articulate who you really are, and I call that story-telling. And the reason why I call it story-telling is because there is actually a neuroscience change that happens in your brain when you hear a person's story. When you take the time to understand a person's background, when you take the time to understand what has gotten a person to where they are in life, you change yourself. The reason why you change is for two things actually. One, the reason you change is because your brain doesn't know the difference between an experience and a story. So if I tell you a--if I tell you about a story, it is the same thing as if you were to experience it yourself. If I talked to you about my story of growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, and basically having to take two buses and a train to get to school every day and some of the experiences that I had going through, you know, high school and college, after I finished my story, Zach, you will neurologically change, because your body--your brain doesn't know the difference between my story and you actually experiencing some of that yourself, and so you get this flood of hormones that go through your body which actually change the neuro-receptors in your brain and make--because your brain has this thing called plasticity, you actually change. You feel different about me, and the reason why you feel different about me is because you see a part of you in me. Because it may be a completely different experience that I had in high school or college or even in the work environment, but as I tell you my story, you see yourself in me, and it brings you and I together. And it's not just you and I, it's me and the CEO. It's me and the chief marketing officer. It's me and the chief operating officer. So as opposed to that person or those people relying heavily on what they physically see when I walk into the room, when I tell them my story and I learn their stories, they can no longer look at me the same way because they have neurologically changed. We have created relationship where was none before.Zach: Wow.Chris: Yeah.Zach: [both laugh] Hold on. You know what I like about you, Chris? Well, I like a lot of things about you, but I like the way that you be--you be hitting, like--you be hitting [?] bars, and then you'll be like, "Yeah." Like, "That was fire and I know it. React to that." [both laugh] No, no, no. There's so much there, and I think--first of all, we're probably gonna--we're definitely gonna have to have a part two to this podcast because I want to get deeper. At the same time I don't want us to go have a two-hour podcast, but I do want to follow-up on something. So then when you're talking about creating these--like, sharing these stories and making these connections, you know, what are ways that black and brown professionals coming into an organization can facilitate that in a way that manages up? Like, what are ways that they could do that and help move the needle forward in their favor? What are ways that they could--they could share their stories and create those connections that would support and help them in their careers?Chris: God, that's a great question. So I'm gonna use a term which is based on education, which I told you at first that education does not necessarily change you, but I want to use this term from education 'cause you can start using it and applying it in your day-to-day. And it's a whole study and science around this thing called emotional intelligence, okay? So emotional intelligence, a quick definition of what it is - it's just your ability to take everything that's going on today in your life, Zach, everything that happened, you know, this morning--you know, you, you know, getting out of bed at a certain time, having to, you know, get certain things done, worrying about certain other things that probably lingered from the weekend--your ability to take all of those things that are just clawing and drawing at your attention and put them to the background and focus on Chris during this podcast. Your ability to do that is the quick definition of what emotional intelligence is. It's all of our ability to take everything that's going on in our lives and put it as a backdrop and to be present and able to listen to and serve the person who is sitting in front of us. So taking ourselves and putting ourselves secondary to another human being, but how does emotional intelligence actually help us as we're trying to create these inclusive organizations, to your point or your question, "How do we manage up?" We do it by being emotionally intelligent, and I'll give you a little bit more definition about how that application actually works at work. First of all and foremost, emotional intelligence is the best-correlated skill set to career advancement that there is. Let me pause and say that one more time. Emotional intelligence has the greatest correlation to career advancement than anything else. It is higher than IQ. You may get a job because of a high IQ. You get promoted because of a high EQ, and in this case EQ is emotional intelligence. And so how does that show up and how does that work? It works like this. As you get into an organization--and let's just say that you are different from an ethnicity or from a race-based perspective--first of all, all eyes are on you, and you probably know that if you've been employed by any of the major Fortune 1500 companies in this country, and because all eyes are on you, you get a lot of exposure that you had not even really anticipated or asked for, but the way you manage that from an emotional intelligence perspective is that you spend all of your time trying to find out and figure out what is going on with other individuals and people around you. One of the first things I did when I came to Vizient seven years ago--this is the truth--is that I went up to the CEO--first of all, I didn't take the job until I got a chance to meet the CEO, and I made that a prerequisite before I even came to the organization because I knew that the CEO creates the culture, and I wanted to figure out exactly what type of culture he had created. The first meeting that I had with him, the first thing that we talked about was his dress, the way he dressed, and the reason why we talked about the way he dressed is because he dressed the way I had always wanted to dress. It was very colorful. He had--you know, custom jeans on. He had designer shoes on. I mean, even to this day I can't afford everything that he wore, but it was so well put together that our first conversation was around his dress. I then wanted to understand how did he progress through the organization, so we had a really long conversation about the fact that he started out as an analyst, you know, 30 something odd years ago and then eventually was promoted up through the ranks of CEO. I found out about his wife and her background and the fact that she started out as a CPA. I also had many, many conversations with him about his son. He only has one son, and his son at the time was just about to enter college, and he had an incredible attraction to African art. I also found out that he spent a lot of time in New Mexico, and the reason why he spent a lot of time in New Mexico is because 1. it gave him a chance to get away from Texas, and 2. he was able to basically walk down the street and people really not know who he was or what he did. So he could kind of not have to be a CEO for those periods of time where he got a chance to get away. The reason why I tell you this story is because I immersed myself in understanding who he is, how he thought, how he worked, what was important to him, what his likes were and what his dislikes were, and as I did that, as I immersed in his life, he then paid the same respect to me. He paid the same respect to me, because he began asking questions about me and my story and what brought me to where I was in my career, in my life, in my work and everything else, and we built a very strong relationship. I'm gonna pause on that word relationship, because a lot of times the things that hold us back in corporate America, especially if we show up either from a gender difference or from an ethnicity difference, is that we don't take the time to form those relationships, and they have to be formed very selflessly. Very purposefully but very selflessly. You cannot walk into a relationship and expect a person to just automatically, you know, ask you about your family or your spouse or your education or anything else like that, even though that's a big part of your story. You have to first start out by asking them about themselves. I always tell people when they're about to go to an interview or if they're about to, you know, have a first conversation with another human being, and I tell them, "Use the 80/20 rule," and the 80/20 rule says that you should only talk 20% of the time, because when you're talking, you're not listening. When you're talking, you're not able to hear the story of the other person who is in front of you, who emotional intelligence tells you should be the center of your attention for that interaction. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense. For sure, for sure. So let me ask you this, because I'd like to get, you know, your prediction. Based on your expertise as an I&D subject matter expert, like, what is the future of I&D if it stays its current course?Chris: Yeah. I will tell you if it stays its current course--we've seen the current course trajectory for inclusion and diversity over the last 50+ years. We still have the same representation of minorities in CEO positions and board director positions and females in CEO positions and board director positions that we've had for the last, you know, 30+ years. That course has not changed. We have the same make-up as far as individuals who are moving into C-level jobs. We've got the same make-up that we've had, you know, for the last 35, 40+ years. That trajectory has already been put in place, and it continues to be there even though the demographics of this country have completely changed. As a matter of fact, if you're under the age of 18 right now, the majority in this country have actually become the minority and the minority have become the majority, but it doesn't mean--because the numbers are there, it doesn't mean that there will be change in organizations and corporations and boards of directors and people making key decisions. If you look across the world, we see where that phenomena has happened in other countries, where the minorities in a country are actually still in powerful positions over the majority of people who actually happen to be part of the organization or the countries, because they have not changed. They have not understood how to change the mindsets and really tap into the value of the vast majority of people who actually inhabit the place that they're at geographically. So the current trajectory has already proven out that it will remain the way it is, and the bad side, the down side of that trajectory, is that we don't have the ability to tap into one of our greatest resources, which is the true, rich diversity of people that walk into organizations every day, that walk into churches every day, that walk past you down the streets every day.Zach: Hm. That's a heavy--that's heavy, but this has been a great discussion, Chris, and, you know, before we wrap up, I'd like to know - are there any other projects that you're working on?Chris: Yes. Yeah, so the one--the latest project that is just unfolding at the conclusion here of 2018 has been a small I'll just call it boutique consulting firm that I just decided I'm going to create, because I don't see the current trajectory changing, and I said, "You know what? At the end of the day, one person can make a difference if they just figure it out and start doing it in a very meaningful way," and so I just started a small firm called Storytellers Consulting, and Storytellers Consulting has a lot to do with what we just discussed on this podcast, and that is teaching executives how to tell their stories and how to bring the stories out of the people who they work with and how to create inclusive cultures and how to create safe spaces and how to evolve organizations into becoming more inclusive. If there is nothing that is done at the neurological level, change will not happen, period. So here's my final thought on how change happens and why I know for sure this is true. So January. January is the most important month of the year for a lot of people, because they make a lot of promises to themselves. Most of us--most of us make promises like, "I'm going to lose that 10, 15, 20 pounds that has burdening me for the last, you know, 15 years of my life." That resolution lasts 'til about February 15th. I always give people right up 'til about Valentine's Day, and then the behaviors go back to what they used to be, right? And the reason why the behaviors go back to what they used to be is because change management requires for people to actually change neurologically, and the only way that that happens--let's call it for the sake of losing weight--the only way that you're gonna physically be able to lose weight and keep it off is if something triggers you to know that my behavior has to change or else there's either a consequence or else I see the benefit so much that I'm not gonna go back to my bad habits, and for a lot of people, those changes happen only when you get burdened with something like--something bad is gonna happen to you if you don't lose weight. Like, you get a call from the doc and they tell you the consequence of you not losing the weight. So short of that--because most people are not faced with that--short of that, we've got to change neurologically, which means that in order for me to physically make sure that you're going to stick to your commitments, I've got to explain to you in a way that makes so much sense that you are not gonna go back to your bad habits regardless of the temptation. The reason why this is so important is because, again, for most of us, we get off the diets by February 15th, and the reason being is because we've done nothing to convince ourselves that we have to be on that diet or we have to change our way of living. In diversity and inclusion, that neuroscience change starts with creating a relationship. The same exact thing would happen if you were to--as opposed to telling someone else that you're gonna lose a whole bunch of weight, if you signed up and created, let's say, a partnership with someone and said, "You know what? For the next year, you and I, three times a week, are gonna meet at the gym. We're gonna go together. I'm gonna hold you accountable, you're gonna hold me accountable, and we are going to change our lives together." When there is that partnership, that relationship, that neurological change inside of your head, inside of your body, it has a lot better of an opportunity of sticking, and so that's exactly what we want to do with Storytellers Consulting. That's exactly what we want to do when it comes to change management just in general across the country.Zach: This has been a phenomenal conversation. I just--I really appreciate it, Chris. Before we let you go--I know you just shared some--first of all, you've been dropping sauce this entire conversation, but do you have any final thoughts or shout-outs?Chris: Yeah. I guess the final thought or shout-out I have is 1. I really want to just let people know that one, there is no criticism associated with, you know, where we are today in this--in this country relative to diversity and inclusion. I do not feel like it is anyone's fault. I don't want anyone to, you know, hear this podcast and believe that, Zach, you or I are saying that there are so many social injustices going on in this country that, you know, this is just a throwaway or there is someone to truly blame for everything. That is not the message whatsoever. The message is that most of our current existence, most of our decisions, most of our behaviors, they are so subconscious, unconscious, subliminal, that we're not even aware of it a lot of times, and so all we're doing, all we're saying, all we're advocating for is for people to actually do things that are more consciously driven, and when you do things that are more consciously driven and there's a motivation and a methodology for you to do that, then we can actually make change, and that is exactly what we're advocating for, is that we just really think about this from a historical perspective, realizing certain things have just not been that effective, you know? The legislation that we did back in the '60s and, you know, all of the affirmative action pushes that we've done through the '70s and '80s, you know, as great as they've been, you know, to make people feel better, they really have not necessarily touched on the--on the real metrics associated with businesses and corporations in this country, and our organizations are missing out on an incredible opportunity to tap into what is now going to become the majority population in this country. And so again, my shout-out [?] to take a very introspective look and approach at what are we personally doing right now to build relationships that actually go beyond our racial differences, go beyond our gender differences and create true, meaningful, authentic relationships with other human beings by getting to know them at a neurological level. A lot of times, that is done through stories and through the art of storytelling.Zach: Chris, we definitely appreciate you being on the Living Corporate podcast today, and we consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back, man.Chris: Thank you so much, man. It has been a pleasure and a gift and a blessing. Thank you.Zach: Amen, man. Peace.Chris: Amen. All righty, be well.

On the ninth installment of Tristan’s Tips, our esteemed guest Tristan Layfield shares a few tips on how to gain skills without going back to school and potentially running up costly student loan debt.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumeTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, let's talk about how you can gain new skills without going back to school. Sometimes we utilize the skills we currently have to their maximum capacity or we need to learn something new in order to advance our careers, but we don't want to go back to school. I get it. School is expensive, and it isn't getting any cheaper any time soon, so here's a few ways you can gain some new skills without going back to school. First, consider professional certifications. Maybe you want to get into project management. Consider taking a project management professional PMP course and certification exam, or if you want to get into HR, maybe you can work towards a Professional in Human Resources certification. Next, utilize the internet. Places like Coursera and Skillshare, among many others, offer free and low-cost courses to gain new skills. Also, let's not discount YouTube University. Not only can you utilize YouTube to learn a specific task you need to complete, but there are even whole courses on YouTube. Next, consider entrepreneurship. I think many people discredit the skills you can learn through entrepreneurship. Take me for example. In my business, I didn't just learn more about recruiting and resumes. I learned digital marketing, social media marketing, more operation skills, bits of accounting, sales, and so much more. While this may not have been taken into account previously, this idea of intrapreneurship or having an entrepreneurial mindset while working in corporate is taking off, so skills gained like this are becoming more valuable. You can also utilize entrepreneurship to break into new industries that you've been trying to get into in order to gain some experience. Next, consider internships. I know working for free or at a discounted rate is not usually what we want to do, but sometimes experience is just the best teacher. It can also open new doors if you give it your all. This is also a great way to break into new industries. So those are just a few ways you can gain some additional skills without heading back to anyone's campus and amassing student loan debt. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

On the eighth entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield touches on the difficulties of finding jobs in a new location. He offers three useful tips to help navigate the process.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/https://www.instagram.com/layfieldresume/https://twitter.com/layfieldresumeConnect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's poppin', y'all? It's Tristan Layfield of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna talk about how to find a job in a new location. Sometimes we find ourselves in a position where we want or need to move to a new city, but one of the hardest things to narrow down is a new job, so I'm gonna provide a few suggestions to get you well on your way. #1, localize your hiring info. Maybe you have an address in the new city or maybe you'll have a friend that will allow you to use theirs. Put that on your resume and application. Recruiters narrow down their searches using geographical locations, and many in larger cities rarely entertain out-of-state candidates, so by changing your address you have a better chance of being seen. This tip also applies to your LinkedIn profile, and if you're worried about your phone number giving you away, then get a Google Voice number with a local area code. #2, attend regional conferences and events. Many organizations that have national conferences typically host regional conferences and events as well. Try to get to the city and attend those, as they will be filled with people who are in your industry and in the city you're trying to move to. So make some connections, and then begin leveraging them by setting up informational interviews, fostering real relationships, and maybe even asking for a referral. #3, spell out your move in your cover letter. So for those who can't localize their info or can't get to those regional conferences and events, you want to spell out your move in your cover letter. Many employers may assume that you just seeking relocation fees, which you might be, or that you're just sending your resume across the country, so you want to make sure that you calm their fears by starting your cover letter with something like, "As I prepare for my cross-country relocation to XYZ City." This is short, sweet, and gets the job done up front. Finding a new job in a new city can be a tad bit difficult, but if you prepare before going on your job search, you can make the process a bit more manageable and potentially land that job in the city where you want to move. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the pleasure of speaking with mentor, entrepreneur, and businesswoman Kethlyn White to expand on our Season 1 self-care discussion. She shares both her personal career and hair journey and talks about the business she runs with her friend, Coil Beauty.Connect with Kethlyn on LinkedIn! https://www.linkedin.com/in/kethlynawhite/Check out Coil Beauty! https://coilbeauty.com/Click here for more Living Corporate! https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, check it out. Y'all know by this point in Season 2--wow, that is crazy. It's been over a year. It's Season 2, and y'all know from time to time we'll have, you know, B-Sides where we just kind of have a real talk conversation with a special guest, and listen here, today's special guest is pretty special. She's pretty great, is pretty talented, and I'm excited to have her here. Actually, she was one of the first black women that I ever have worked with in consulting. Great background. She and I met in person, and she has a great story. We talked a lot about, like, strategic change management at the time and just kind of navigating these spaces. She has been a great mentor to me. She's one of the main reasons that I was able to be promoted to manager at my last job, which helped me transition to my new job, and yeah, she's great. I don't want to spoil too much. I'm gonna go ahead and introduce her. She is a mentor, a public speaker, a businesswoman, an entrepreneur, a creative, right? Her name is Kethlyn White. That's right, y'all, Kethlyn. So right, so Kethlyn, right, it's, like, a combination of, like--it's black, but, you know, it passes the resume test. Like, you'll still--you will still interview a Kethlyn, right? So it's a really nice combination there. Kethlyn, what's up? How are you doing?Kethlyn: Hey, Zach. Thanks for having me. I'm glad I--I'm glad I passed your sniff test.Zach: No, no, no. It's not my sniff test you need to pass. You know what--[both laugh] Kethlyn will make it past the resume test. It's not like a LaQuanda is my point. And Zachary of course is very respectable. Like, Zachary--I mean, how many black Zachs do you even know? You live on the West Coast, but, like, do you know a lot of black Zachs?Kethlyn: I don't.Zach: Exactly. So that with being said, today we're talking about black, and we're just talking about self-care and what that really looks like practically. A lot of times, you know, we talk about--we talk about self-care, we talk about--we talk about it from the perspective of natural hair becausae it's an easy entry point into self-care, but I'd like to really, Kethlyn, give you some space to kind of talk about yourself, talk about your journey, talk about some of the things that you've got going on, and then we can go from there. How does that sound?Kethlyn: That sounds good. So tell me where--tell me where you want to start. You know, self-care, especially in the black community, is a very large topic, and it could cover a wide range of things. I probably would need more than just a podcast episode to really dive in.Zach: Big facts.Kethlyn: Where do we want to start?Zach: You know, that's a really good question. How about we start with your journey in terms of, you know, your transition from, you know, adolescence and high school to college to then--you know, again, I don't want to tell too much, but I know that, you know, you spent some time out of the country and you came back, and you've continued to grow, and your personal image and how you manage your image has continued to grow and shift as you've been in Corporate America. I think that would be a really cool story to tell.Kethlyn: Okay. Well, I mean, from adolescence 'til now would probably be, again, another novel, so we could probably cut it back, but I think it is an interesting point to talk about, you k now, how do you grow with yourself, especially within not just what you're doing individually but how you do and how you grow within your job, your entrepreneurial ventures, et cetera. So, you know, for me, you know, I was blessed to go to Spelman College. Well, [I went to] two HBCUs actually. I started at Hampton and I transferred to Spelman, but one of the wonderful things about going to a historically black college is that you really are left with this sense of beauty in all shapes and sizes with people who look like me, who have my skin color and who therefore have very similar experiences. And we all have different backgrounds. We all are completely different people, but leaving an HBCU, you leave with a sense of pride that no one is allowed to take from you, and it gave me--it boosted my self-confidence that I didn't have going to predominantly white schools as I matriculated, you know, teenage years, right, all the way through high school graduation, and it was extremely impactful for me as I started to navigate the corporate world and entrepreneurship, and one of the biggest legs up I found was that, you know, when it comes to self-care, a lot of that starts at the root with how you manage your time and manage your space, and it's not easy to do, because when you start on your first job, when you start taking on and tackling, you know, your first venture, you find that there are a lot of people who don't look like you when you're a black person, and because of that you end up with a lot of different, sometimes negative, experiences. Sometimes it's hard to feel comfortable, it's hard to not feel so challenged. So having that spirit already from the HBCU provided me with a support system that I couldn't pay for, and so it really did--it really did make a big difference for me as I started to do and started to grow into my roles. I started out in consulting, one because I love technology. My mom, who is a boss in the technology space, she was a CEO of a tech company for about 15 years and now sits on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper, you name it, right? And the list will go on and continue. So, you know, she was a huge influence to me, as well as with my dad, around making sure that--you know, they always told me I can do whatever I wanted to do, and I knew I wanted to be in technology 'cause it was the space that it was always going to be there, so I wanted to understand it. [?] an engineer. I didn't really have an interest in being an engineer, but I loved how engineers think, right? So I wanted to be in the space, and I went specifically into technology consulting because I was gonna get my hands dirty. That was awesome, and so I enjoyed Capgemini out the gate, and man, do they let you get your hands dirty, and I'm talking about drinking from the fire hose.Zach: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Kethlyn: Very quickly. And, you know, so you're balancing and managing how to learn how to do that and start your new job and all that good stuff while also managing your space. So I had to set some rules for myself around how I was going to navigate. I had to make sure that I was networking and getting to know people within, you know, my company while also knowing that there might be some boundaries there that I will have to set for myself because I'm not as comfortable in different areas. So it was an interesting journey, but again, you know, my foundation was set, so from there I really was able to, you know, take it a bit further, and, you know, my self-confidence and my comfort level with who I was as a black woman really made a huge difference as I navigated the workforce, and you can probably ask anyone who I joined and started with. They knew who I was. I commanded every room I went in, and it was not necessarily because of my skills, it was moreso because of--obviously that was a part of it, but it was moreso because of the presence I had in the room, and that presence came from me understanding what my self-worth was out the gate. So no one was going to be allowed to determine that for me. I don't care whether I was taking meeting minutes in a meeting or I was facilitating a session, right? No matter what it was, I commanded that space and that presence, and that allowed me to not only grow very quickly, get promoted very quickly and network really well, it also afforded me opportunities to travel and ultimately move to Australia for an awesome four-year opportunity after I got married. So, you know, that's--I think that's at the root of where a lot of my, you know, self-awareness comes from as a black woman is, you know, what my parents and family instilled in me, plus, you know, the foundation that an HBCU provided me.Zach: So that's really dope, right? And can we--and I want to double down on the part that you said that, like, everyone who--when I was working with you, and I think that, you know, continues forward of course, is that, you know, it's like, "Hey, Kethlyn knows who she is. She knows what she's about, and no one's really gonna shake her from that." Can you talk a little bit about how your appearance and, like, how you managed--how your hair journey, like, came into play with that, like, from--yeah, from graduating Spelman to then, like, I don't know, today.Kethlyn: Sure. Well, I think it's important to mention that, you know, yes, I am that way now, right? I had to grow into that person. It just so happened that going to an HBCU really helped, you know, catapult me into that. But I still had my awkward--all kinds of awkward phases, especially when it came to my hair, 'cause God bless my mom. She just did not know, right, how to do it, because, you know, unbeknownst to most people, all African-Americans, we all have different types of hair, right? We don't all come out with the same type of hair. We have different curl patterns, different textures, different thickness, right? My mom's hair is extremely bouncy, right? It is very bouncy. She's got these big spirals. So when I came out, you know, she was looking at me--I had a huge head of hair. It's definitely tighter curls, but it wasn't just that. It was the fact that the texture was different. So very early on she permed my hair, and it's not rightly or wrong. she didn't know what to do, right? And she--and her mom and her family, they all had--they didn't have that type of hair. They didn't know what to do. So she permed my hair, and it was straight, and for, gosh, all the way up until I went to college, I stayed perming my hair because that just seemed like what I needed to do in order to get it straight, and at that point in time, straight was all I really saw. My mom's hair was wavy, so even when she had her curls [up], her hair was still semi-straight, and because I grew up in fairly monotonous areas, I still saw a lot of straight hair, and even with my family--a lot of the black women in my family, they also had perms or, you know, would press out their hair, et cetera. So I saw never really saw curls in their natural state on different types of people. I just didn't see it. I wasn't exposed. So when I went to school and I kept trying to keep up that perm process, first of all, that stuff is expensive. It is very expensive. I had--you know, there was only so much I was going to be able to do. My parents would side-eye me when they would see some of these bills and they would think--I was absolutely blessed. My parents were able to support me through college, but they were not trying to hear anything about this hair care stuff. They were, "You need to figure that out." So I stopped perming my hair, and then I just got it pressed, and I remember talking to one of my hairdressers in Atlanta once I transferred to Spelman. She was like, you know, "Why did you perm your hair in the first place?" I said, "I don't know. It's just what happened." So then she started showing me how I can do things without perming my hair, so then I was straightening it, right?Zach: Right.Kethlyn: But again, that's just what I did. Fast forward, move to Australia, and I didn't realize how humid Australia was, but I also didn't think about it. I don't know where I was in my mind, right? But I did not consider the fact that there were not gonna be many African-Americans--forget African-American, people of different types of color, right, over there in different parts of the world.Zach: Right, but you have the aboriginals.Kethlyn: Yeah, you do have the aboriginals. They do--they live in specific places, and that's a whole separate podcast conversation, and that is an absolutely an issue in Australia, but I'll have to put a pin in that. But either way, there wasn't a lot of different types of cultures, especially when it came to hair, so I spent a couple months over there just trying to find somebody to even help me with my hair because I didn't know what to do, and, I mean, I had hairdressers come at me with this, you know, fine-toothed comb trying to detangle. I was like, "I don't know what you're doing with that. There is nothing you're gonna do with that on my head, because you're just gonna break it in my hair." And so after about three or four tries of that I just said, "You know what? Forget it, this isn't going to work. Obviously I can't wear my hair straight. I'm gonna have to figure out what it looks like when it's curling. So me and YouTube all day, that's what it was, and one of my favorite, you know, YouTube channels was Natural85, mostly because not only was she making her own products, she made it very easy for me to understand what she was doing. And to be fair, her--I don't have the exact same hair texture she did, right? So I knew I was taking a risk by trying some of the stuff, but I did it anyway, and I made everything. I made the shampoos. I made conditioners. I made gel. I did it all, and because I was in Australia nobody knew what my hair was supposed to look like. I went through this really weird, awkward, "I don't know what my hair is doing" probably for, like, a year and change, and nobody knew any better because they didn't know what it was--people would be like, "Oh, Kethlyn, your hair's so cool." I'm like, "Little do you know I look crazy." But it was--it was definitely liberating, and then once I kind of saw what my hair was doing I was like, "Oh, this is great," right? You know, I could start to see how amazing my hair really is, because it can do all the things. Yeah, sure, I can have it straight, but it can be curly, I can twist it up, I can braid it, I can let it be out, I can [?] it if I want to, and I was like--it was an empowering and inspiring thing for me to just get in there in my scalp and really figure out what was going on. So that's really how my journey came to be with my hair, and it was just an extension of me learning about and embracing my self-confidence and my identity and who I was. It was just another level, right? 'Cause we continue to evolve, right? So this was just another piece of my evolution, connecting more to my hair and my [crown?] in this space, and it was awesome.Zach: It's just incredible for me, Kethlyn, to watch you, 'cause I was like--'cause by the time I saw you, like, you were kind of, like, at the end--not the end, but you were at a different part of your journey when you and I met, right? 'Cause when I met you, you--Kethlyn: Yeah. You mean specifically with my hair and my awareness? Is that what you mean?Zach: Right, right, right. So I saw the glory, but I didn't see all the story--you know, I wasn't there for the story, you know what I'm saying?Kethlyn: Mm-hmm.Zach: And so, like, you know, your hair was all big and stuff. I was like, "Oh, wow. Her hair's just like my wife's. Oh, wow. That's amazing." [?]. That's really what's up. Okay, so now as you've continued forward, you know, let's talk a little bit about some of the business ventures that you're involved in and that you've started kind of, like, as an extension of that. Kethlyn: Sure. So actually, funny enough, when I was in Australia going through this, my best friend Aisha. So Aisha Bates, she went to college with me, she went to Spelman with me, and she came to visit me in Australia. We are--she is definitely my travel partner in crime. So when I was moving to Australia, I mean, she's looking at tickets. She's like, "All right. Well, I'm coming." So she came, and she saw where my hair was at that point in time, and she was like, "You know, Kethlyn, your hair looks great," and I'm like, "Thanks. Honestly, I feel like that this is just the start, and I feel like it's still in this awkward phase, but I'm enjoying figuring this out." Huge caveat here. I had the time, right? It was just my husband and I over there. [?], right? So my hair at that point in time was kind of like my kid. It took a lot of time, so I want to make sure that's clear, because not everybody has all that time to spend, and Lord knows if I had half of what's going on what I do now then it probably would have taken me at least a good 2-3 years to figure it out. So that's just my huge caveat. When she came to visit me, she was like, "You know, I'm gonna try to do this back, you know, in the U.S. Obviously you're having a hard time here 'cause there's nobody, right? And there's no beauty supply stores and no help." So she went back home to Chicago at the time, and she started going through her own journey, and it was struggle, right? She was [?]--she was subscribing to all of the boxes and everything and, you know, just like, you know, a lot of people will tell you, right, they're a product junkie. You know, you open your bathroom cabinet and there's, like, 20 million things in there. And, you know, she remembered--she had a very vivid memory at the time where she went to a beauty school just looking for conditioner. I think she might have gone in there, like, just having washed shampoo out of her head, 'cause she ran out of conditioner. Because, you know, for a lot of people, we use a bottle per condition, depending on how much hair you have, right? And so she walks into the beauty supply store, and, you know, it's a little dingy, a little dark, but whatever. She just needs to get conditioner. And the person who was there supposedly was helping her, right? But who owned the store was really not giving her any information. She was like, "I need some conditioner. This is the type of hair I have," and they're kind of like, "Well, here's the aisle," right? And the aisle has, like, you know, 50 eleven products, and she's like "Which one?" And she started to describe her hair. They had no idea, right? They're like, "There's the aisle," and then before she even leaves the store, you know, they point her towards weave, and she's like, "That's not actually what I want," and, you know, at that moment she really kind of felt something in her spirit. She was like, "This doesn't make any sense, plus I could probably do this better than they can do this. I have all of these products in my cabinet. I could probably sell these to somebody else better than someone else could, because I now understand," so she started Coil Beauty. You know, she--literally she just said, "You know what? Screw it, I'm just gonna do it," and so she created her business. She got a website, all kinds of stuff, right? And she was a couple months into her journey, and we were talking about it. One of the things that she mentioned is she was like, "You know, the problem is I don't know where to begin. I know I have a website, [?], these are all the things that I'm doing, but I'm not quite sure, right, if this is really the right way." [?] and all this stuff, so we started--we started vibing off of that, we started talking, and after a while, not only did, you know, what she talking about speak to me--obviously I lived through it, but there was also a part of me that was like, "You know, we could do this much better. Let's just try." So at this point I said, "Listen, I'd love to join you. I'd love to--I'd love to become a part of this journey," and so I joined her as her COO, and at that point in time I was able to not only help find, you know, a brand manager and a product manager to really help us think through this, right, I was able to bring my obviously IT expertise to it to figure out how we wanted to go through this, right? What journey we were gonna take, and it has been a journey of love and frustration and irritation. We have definitely become closer, but the best part about this is that we've created this space for, you know, African-American men and women who are looking for products that are made with them as the primary idea in mind, right? They are made for them. We carry skin care and sunscreen that's made for people with color--you know, with skin of a darker hue, right? We've gotten nail polish, right, with different colors, and it's vegan, right? Because a lot of our skin can be sensitive, right? So why aren't we thinking about that? So we carry vegan nail polishes because it's super important to us. Same thing with lipstick. We have a lipstick brand that literally all they do is make lipsticks for people who want to see bright tones, nude tones for black skin, right? Everything. And once we started digging in--and she really found a ton of different product lines that were made like that. We said, "Well, let's help them get out there. Let's give them a platform." And so, you know, once I joined her vision, it's--you know, the sky has been the limit. So Coil Beauty is definitely, you know, my love child, and I'm so excited and happy that my best friend was wanting to have me along on this journey with her. But, you know, she has definitely brought her vision to life, and I'm out here executing it for her, and we are continuing to grow, and we love it. And so we're always looking for new brands. We're always excited about what people are building. I think eventually we'll probably have a line of our own, but I think one of the best--one of the best things I've seen is, you know, friends, family, people I meet on the street, when they ask me, you know, what color lipstick am I wearing or what kind is it or, you know, what am I putting in my hair, I tell them, and I say, "Oh, by the way, here's where you can buy it." They're like, "I've never heard of this brand before," and then we give them a place to go. So it's been awesome.Zach: That sounds incredible, and that's amazing. And, you know, it's interesting because I think what we don't always consider or think about is that, like, we as people of non-white identity, we exist in a space that was not created inherently with us in mind, and so--Kethlyn: Correct, especially in the beauty space, right? Because beauty standards were European at best, so all of the stores that sell beauty products were aligned to that, and it's only within a recent year, right? Now, mind you, it's 2019, right? So it's only within the recent year that you've started to see more of a push, and that's because we've got people, you know, like Pat McGrath and Rihanna, you know, people who are taking, you know, their stuff and putting it in your face to say "We exist out here, and we're important." Not only that, "We're the ones spending the money." Zach: Right, they're the ones spending the money. We spend the money on these products that don't even--that aren't even good.Kethlyn: That don't even exist. So we're--like, there's no reason why there's not a shopping experience that doesn't have to be so painful. We want it to be fun. I shouldn't have to go into Sephora and it's, like, really hard to find someone to talk to who I can say, "Listen, I am a black woman, and this is what I'm looking for," and they're like, "Oh, yeah. It might be difficult to match--" No. You come to Coil Beauty, what we wanted to do is make it fun. Shopping is still fun. We like to play with makeup. We like to try new hair stuff. We like to see new things, discover new products, where I know when I'm looking at them, all of them were created with me in mind. So why wouldn't I want to do that, right? That's really where it came from.Zach: No, absolutely. That's amazing. No, that's super dope, and I just think again, like, anything we can do to, like, just further affirm, like, our perspective and experiences and, like, validate those needs, 'cause they're real needs. They're real, valid holes and gaps to close, right? And I mean, even, like, in the simple things around, like, Band-Aids. Like, it took me until I was, like, 23, 24 to realize that, "Oh, the color of a Band-Aid is--like, that's white skin," you know what I'm saying? Like, that's not--like, being the default comes with a myriad of privileges, and I think--and, you know, I think, like, any time we can push up against that by just simply creating platforms, avenues, companies, quote unquote movements to affirm our own identity and perspective and experience and affirm those things, like, all the better. So that's amazing. So Kethlyn, look here. Before we get up out of here, do you have any shout-outs? Anybody you want to, you know, speak to? You want to let the--we'll let the air horns go. Anybody at all?Kethlyn: Shout-out my village. My village is awesome. You know, I have--it's a beautiful thing, you know? I think that we have downplayed how important is the village is in general. So for me, between my parents and my friends and my brother and my husband and my kids, you know, these are--you know, these are all different aspects. My mentors, people I work with, my colleagues. Everyone helps shape me as a person and continues to challenge me in all of that wonderful stuff. Obviously I have to shout-out my, you know, business, Coil Beauty, which I'm so excited about, and all the brands that we carry, you know, from Mielle to [?] to Pear Nova. I love all of them. Soultanicals. There's too many to name, right? I could go on forever, but it has--it has been an amazing journey, and I'm excited to see where we go, and my business partner and, you know, the CEO and founder of my company, Aisha Bates, who's also getting married this year--so excited for her.Zach: Aye. Come on, Aisha. Aye.Kethlyn: Right? And I just--honestly, you know, shout-out to you for creating a platform in, you know, Living Corporate, because I think there's always a need to have conversations about everything. Who knows why and where and what type of impact we'll have on each other and who might listen to this and get inspired and do something else or have a question, and please let your listeners know I'm always open to questions and, you know, figuring this whole life thing out isn't easy, especially when it comes to, you know, self-care and self-confidence. It's not--you know, it's not a 20, 30-minute conversation. It's a lifetime worth of experience and challenges and hardships all rolled into lessons learned.Zach: Man, that's so real. And yes, Kethlyn, we're gonna make sure we have all of your contact information as well as Coil Beauty all in the show notes so people can click it and check it out. Now, listen, y'all. Y'all have been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. I've been your host, Zachary Nunn. You know you can follow us on Living Corporate @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. Follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then you can find us online at living-corporate.com--please say the dash--or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We have all of the Living Corporates except for livingcorporate.com. So you know what, Australia? So check it out. Not only do y'all need to do the aboriginals right--this is the second time I've said this, and I'm not playing--you need to do the aboriginals right, and you need to go ahead and give us that livingcorporate.com, 'cause somebody over there, Kethlyn, it's, like, they own it. It's, like--not the country, but, like, there's a company over there that's--like, they rent out, like, corporate space, and they call it livingcorporate.com. I'm like, "Come on, y'all can give that up." You know what I'm saying? Kethlyn: Oh, can they? [laughs] That sounds like you need to work on your negotiation skills, is what it sounds like.Zach: [laughs] Me and Ade were, like, terrifed at the thought of, like, how much money that would actually cost. I'm certain that it--there's, like, livingcorporate.com.au. I was like, "Oh, no." So anyway--yeah, they got it on lock, but anyway, thank y'all. You have been listening to Kethlyn White, mentor, entrepreneur, businesswoman, mother, wife, overall dope individual. Peace.

On the seventh entry of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield talks about lateral moves and debunks some common misconceptions around them. He explains how they can be a great way to expand your skill set, diversify your knowledge of the business, and help you make a name across your organization. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. This week, let's have a discussion around lateral moves. Just to make sure we're on the same page, a lateral move is where you take a job that is on the same level or in the same band as the role you're currently in. These typically take place within the same company, but that's not always the case. Most people cringe at the thought of lateral moves because there are some pretty big misconceptions out there about them, so join me while we debunk a few of them. So the first one is "I'm not advancing my career." Well, actually, lateral moves give you a greater exposure to the business and therefore more marketability down the road. Gaining an understanding of multiple areas of the company makes you better-suited for executive roles. The next myth is "I have to start all over." So OK, while that is true--your immediate work circle will change--you have an existing network from your old role. Utilize those networking skills to have them introduce you to connects in your new world. Now, the third myth is "I'm going to be making the same amount of money." Now, this isn't 100% inaccurate. You know, lateral moves typically equal the same level, which equals similar pay, but make sure you do your Googles. Sometimes the market value of your new role is higher than your old role. If that's the case, you can use it to negotiate a bump in salary. The next misconception is "This won't be challenging." In theory, moving laterally means the jobs will have some similar aspects, but many times the responsibilities can change drastically. Maybe you're moving from having no direct reports to managing people, or maybe you'll get some larger or more visible projects. I know no one wants to start something new only to feel like they've ended up in the same spot, but I'm telling you, lateral moves can be a great way to expand your skill set, diversify your knowledge of the business, and help you make a name across your organization. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

On the sixth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield expands on why it's so important to narrow down your job search before setting off in search of new employment. He also offers valuable advice on how best to navigate the job search realm. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's poppin', y'all? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're gonna talk about why it's essential to narrow down your job search. Have you ever decided you were going to search for a new job, so you take your laptop out, you look at your resume, and you think, "Eh, that's fine," and then you head over to your favorite job search site, like Indeed or Monster, to start searching... then 10 to 15 minutes in, you're completely overwhelmed? Well, that's because you didn't go into it with a plan. We often set ourselves up for failure by setting our sights too wide. We say we want to work in HR, but HR is an expansive industry. You can be a generalist, a recruiter, a trainer, a manager, a director, a VP - the list goes on. The name of the game in the job search realm right now is tailoring. Yes, you could adapt your resume to all of the various roles you would apply to on a whim, but you'd be spending an endless amount of time tweaking resumes and cover letters, and that's precisely why you feel exhausted before you've even really gotten started. While many roles inside of an industry require similar skillsets, they each have their own unique requirements. By thinking too large, you tend to miss what skills you can highlight and what skills you need to brush up on to make you the best candidate in the applicant pool. So take a step back and try to figure out one or two areas or jobs that you're interested in, then develop a targeted strategy for each of those areas. This strategy includes signing up on specific job search sites, highlighting different achievements in your documents, attending certain networking events, using certain social media platforms, or even reaching out to particular employment agencies. While this process varies wildly depending on the industry you're trying to break into, by being aware of what you want, you can better prepare yourself to attain it. Remember, it's a process. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with Role Tea CEO and co-founder Mike Johnson to discuss the topic of entrepreneurship while other and what building an effective network looks like for underrepresented communities. Connect with Mike (and Role Tea) on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikecjohnson1/https://www.linkedin.com/company/role-tea/about/Learn more about Role Tea:https://www.drinkroletea.com/https://www.instagram.com/roletea/?hl=enhttps://twitter.com/getroletea?lang=enhttps://www.facebook.com/GetRoleTea/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: My grandfather was born in Mississippi and was a sharecropper on a cotton farm. With only an elementary education, he eventually moved to a small Illinois town to work for John Deere. After working for over 20 years, he established his wealth through entrepreneurship, namely real estate. "Remember," he would say to me as a child, "jobs are to pay your bills. If you want to be successful and make real money, do something else." Though he was successful, his journey was challenging and fraught with various hardship. It actually reminds me of an excerpt from a piece from Inc Magazine authored by Web Smith called "What It Really Means to Be a Black Entrepreneur in America," and I quote, "Regardless of race or ethnicity, entrepreneurs always begin at a disadvantage. However, blacks tend to need to reach levels of traction with our own money since seed money is often unavailable. This contributes to the rarity of URM entrepreneurs. Richard Kirby, vice president of Vinrock, recently compiled a list that reported a total of 23 African-American investors in the U.S. It should be of no surprise that black founders receive less than 1% of institutional capital. As important as money is the ability to realize your potential through mentorship and direction. This begins with confidence, belonging, and familiarity." End quote. Listen to that. Confidence, belonging, and familiarity. Networking is the catalyst for each of these things, but what does building such networks look like for underrepresented communities? My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: So today we're talking about entrepreneurship and what it means to be an entrepreneur as a non-white person.Zach: I'm glad that we're dedicating an episode to this. Living Corporate isn't just about working for someone else, but also we want to explore ways in which you can work for yourself.Ade: For sure, and shout-out to your grandpa. That's an amazing story.Zach: Yeah, it's inspiring for sure, and while it's impressive--you know, he built his empire through real estate in a small Midwestern town after building up decades of social equity by being in the community, right? Like, he bought homes, like, no one else was really wise enough to invest in, then he fixed them himself, then he managed all of his own maintenance on this homes.Ade: Wow. Yeah, I mean, he weaved his own boot straps out of thin air and then pulled himself up by them. Like, he's an amazing success story, no doubt. To your point, in 2019, the world is just way more connected and social, which is cool, but it also creates more invisible hurdles and roles and just stuff to navigate in being a full-time or even moderately successful part-time entrepreneur, right? And those three things that you quoted--confidence, belonging, and familiarity--those are all needed in the hyper-connected world.Zach: It's just funny, 'cause I was telling a colleague that because of that fact that entrepreneurship success is built on access to capital, which lie in relationships, that people of color are well-benefitted by having partners and backing that don't really look like them, and I remember I had this conversation, and you would think this person, like, thought that I had said, I don't know, just something, like, really racist or, like--"What are you talking about? What are you trying to say? I mean, anybody can do anything." I was like, "OK, all right. Yes, we can do anything." And it also helps to know the right people so that we can have access to things, so that we can do the things that we want. I mean, like, let's be realistic. It frustrates me sometimes when we talk about, like, success and striving to do better and building things that we don't acknowledge, like, the very real capitalist structures that exist, right? Not even that we're fighting against, but that we have to plug into to be successful. Like, come on. Like, this is America. Everybody does not--everybody with a great idea does not wake up and then work really hard towards that idea and then somehow, like, become successful. There's plenty of people out there with great ideas who work very hard who are never successful, right?Ade: Right, and because people of color often don't have access to power or the relationships or the rooms in which these bills are being made in these countries to be movers and shakers there's a bit of a disadvantage. Let's look at the most prominent black clothing brand ever, FUBU. Long story short, FUBU popped off by having a relationship with LL Cool J, and yes, that LL Cool J. He is black, but guess who else LL Cool J had a commercial partnership with? Gap. He plugged FUBU in the middle of a Gap promotional commercial, and he did it while he was rapping, so nobody who was on set or was clearing the ad afterwards really noticed.Zach: Right, and it's a crazy story, but people just forget about that and the fact that Damon John, he had a ton of creative methods to promote FUBU, right? Like, he had a ton of different ways he was kind of getting it out on the street, but it was that Gap commercial--that's the one that really got 'em on the map and really--anyone who studies FUBU and studies, like, advertising, they know about the LL commercial, right? Like, it's common knowledge that's--that was the tipping point for that brand, and so, like, the point is entrepreneurship is changing already. Like, the majority of entrepreneurs don't make it, but being someone who doesn't have advantages built on centuries of historical inequity makes it even harder. Not to say it isn't possible. I'm not saying that it's impossible at all, it's just--it's just hard.Ade: Correct. Wouldn't it be dope if we had an entrepreneur with, let's say, over a 15-year track record of successfully launching dozens of new products or services in the food and beverage media and industrial goods industry? In fact, I would love to hear from someone who has experience maybe launching a brand from concept to the shelf of three of the top ten grocery chains in the country.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest Mike C. Johnson?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns, then Sound Man supplies them] Y'all thought we weren't gonna have these air horns this season. Y'all thought. That's right. We still here with these air horns. We are here with these air horns. More fire for your head top. I'm not playing.Ade: This is really all Zach. I'm blaming it on you.Zach: Aye, drop the air horns. In fact, hold on, drop extra air horns, because we had someone who was actually from Jamaica hit us up on Instagram and say, "Please keep the air horns coming, and make them louder."Ade: Make them louder?Zach: Make them louder, so we here for y'all. We here for the people, 'cause we got it like that. We love y'all, okay?Ade: Not surprised. Not surprised in the least. All right, y'all. Keep listening for a really dope conversation.Zach: And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Mike Johnson with us. Welcome to the show, Mike. How are you doing?Mike: I'm doing good, man. How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, man. So today we're talking about entrepreneurship. So can you tell me--where did your entrepreneurial itch come from or start with?Mike: Oh, man. I really can trace it back to my early 20s. I had a couple ventures around that time that I went after. I had a website called VirtualREGallery, which was basically a website that displayed virtual tours of real estate listings before virtual tours were pretty popular. I was a realtor for a little while, and I also did some construction on the side. So I've always kind of had that aspiration to somewhat control my own destiny, but I would say what really motivated me to start Role Tea was just as I learned more about marketing and innovation, I always just had this dream to want to turn an idea or a vision to a concept and go start to finish and pretty much have complete control over how that product will come to market. So that to me has been the most gratifying part of entrepreneurship. Even to this day when I walk into a store or restaurant and I see someone, you know, drinking Role Tea and, you know, just randomly, that to this day still makes me a little excited, 'cause I'm like, "Man, 3 years ago that product was just an idea in my head, and now people can actually purchase it and consume it in a store." So that's just probably the most gratifying thing, to have that control over the idea from start to finish.Zach: That's amazing. And, you know, you talking about your previous ventures, it reminds me of another question that--you know, in season 1 we had a guest who brought up the concept of failing forward--failing quickly and failing forward, so can you talk a little bit about that concept and perhaps what some of your biggest Ls--and we'll say Ls are lessons--that you've taken in your entrepreneurial journey?Mike: Yeah, man. That's a great question. The crazy thing for me about failure that I've learned in this experience is that--you know, I've realized that you really only fail at almost anything when you quit. Like, going into this venture, you know, sometimes your mind can play tricks on you. You start thinking about the worst things that could happen and failure and whatnot, but when you get into it you realize that, man, virtually everything that happens to a business can be resolved if you have the fortitude to try to work through it. So, I mean, you know, we're no different. Like, you know, everyone talks about the great side of entrepreneurship, but man, we've had at least four or five near-death experiences with our company in 2 years. Like, you know, from running out of cash, which a lot of startups have that issue with running out of money, to, you know, having key suppliers back out last minute, literally weeks before launching into Wegmans, which is a 95+ grocery chain from Virginia up to upstate New York, to having distributors back out the last minute. I mean, all of these things have taken out other companies, but for us we just looked at it as, you know, "Okay, here's another problem." You know, "What are our options just to get past it?" And you kind of take it on the chin and move forward. So, you know, you really only fail at almost anything when you quit or when you run out of, you know, hands to play. So once you realize that and you realize that, "Wow," you know, "what happens with me and this business is largely up to my control," it's kind of empowering once you realize that. But as far as just lessons in general around business, to me the two biggest lessons that come to mind for me is--the first one is just starting as small as you can until you can completely the validate the concept, and when I say validate the concept I mean that, you know, you have a product or a concept that people are gonna want to buy, where the economics of it will actually be able to create a business, right? There's a lot of ideas out there that you can sell, but you're never gonna get the price point that you need to actually have a business. Making sure that you actually know who the consumer is. You know how to talk to them or the channels to sell to them. Those are all the things that are required to really validate a concept, and it's best to try to do that on a very small scale to start. That's definitely been a lesson that we've learned early on, and then I think the second big lesson that I've learned in this in terms of failure as well is just trying to get the business to a point where it can be self-sustainable as quickly as possible, right? So right now we're going through some pretty, you know, dramatic changes around our operations to get a little bit more margin back in house versus giving it to a supplier or an outsourced vendor, and that's just all in an effort to get our business to a point where it can pretty much eat off of what it kills, right? We can sustain ourselves based on our own selves as opposed to relying too much on outside investments. So that's a piece of advice I would give to any aspiring entrepreneur. Even if you want to raise capital, it's just good to have financial discipline to try to get your business as self-sustainable as possible as quickly as possible. So there's many lessons, but those two stand out the most.Zach: And so, you know, you've talked--you talked a little bit about Role Tea, and we're definitely gonna get into that as we get further along in this interview. I'm curious to know about your ventures. Could you--would you mind walking us through? Typically when I meet--the reason I ask your ventures is because typically when I meet entrepreneurs, they may have, like, one big thing, but they have a few other things kind of cooking around them. So I'm curious to know, what are your ventures right now?Mike: No, yeah, that is very true. We tend to have short attention spans, so it's easy to kind of get involved with different things. You know, we launched Role Tea in December, November timeframe of 2016, so we're right at the 2 years, and to be honest, man, aside from, you know, being a new father, which I actually became a father the same year I became an entrepreneur with Role Tea, that's been my primary focus. Now that Role Tea is a little bit more established in terms of distributors and it doesn't take as much of me doing virtually everything to keep it going, I am starting to get back a little bit into consulting. That's something that I did prior to launching Role Tea, so I do like to work with other startups and help them however way I can, but aside from that, man, the bulk of my focus right now is with Role Tea.Zach: What challenges do you believe that you've had as a black entrepreneur? And I ask that because in the research that Ade and I have been doing, we've noticed that there are some challenges that are unique to being a non-white builder of businesses, and so I'm curious to know, like, if you--have you run into any challenges that you believe are unique juxtaposed to your white counterparts? And if so, what are they?Mike: Entrepreneurship, just inherent in the way it is, is already built with plenty of challenges. White, black, yellow, whatever. So sometimes it can be a challenge to understand, "Okay, is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm simply an entrepreneur, or is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm a black entrepreneur?" And that can be difficult sometimes to decipher, but one challenge that I think is definitely tied to us being, you know, African-American [and own a business,] especially in the food and beverage industry. It's just the fact that, you know, we are launching a beverage brand that is--our intent is to scale to 100+ million in sales and potentially exit, so we're treating our business like a true startup, not like a family-owned business where we're just, you know, looking to sell locally and et cetera, and I think that that's a very different thing in the food and beverage industry amongst a black entrepreneur that most people would expect. So I think that just simply not having a whole lot of examples to point to of black-owned food and beverage brands that have been able to do that successfully makes it hard for a lot of people to see the vision and see the potential in our concept, and I think that's especially true primarily with investors. We've actually had, you know, pretty good success with, for example, some major retailers. We've gotten our product onto the shelves of Whole Foods, of Wegmans. Those are two of the top-rated grocery chains in the country. Hy-Vee is another one. You know, but from a business standpoint, I think that's where we've seen most of the challenge in terms of, you know, working with investors and things of that nature, and I think that's largely because there's just not a whole lot of examples of African-American-owned food and beverage brands that have done it to that level, which is what we're aspiring to do. So I'm sure that there is plenty more, but that's definitely one that I can say for certain I think is unique to us.Zach: So what advice would you give to the person who thinks, you know, entrepreneurship is an all-or-nothing thing and it isn't--they're not starting their journey because they're afraid of missing a steady paycheck?Mike: Yeah, man. That's definitely something that is--I find is very common amongst a lot of people. I struggle with that myself. The first thing is you don't have to be all in to be an entrepreneur, right? Don't listen to everything that you see on Instagram and, you know, social media. There's a lot of people out here glamorizing entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship is great, right? I spent 12+ years in the corporate world, and now I'm 2 years as an entrepreneur, so I can give you the perspective of both sides, and there's definitely a lot of advantages on the entrepreneur side, but there is nothing wrong with side-hustling it for as long as you can, right? That extra paycheck from your job is--it actually can position your business to be more successful, you know? Thankfully I have 12+ years of experience in the corporate world working for other people, learning, collecting that nice six-figure salary so that I can actually build up a savings to even have a chance to do what I'm doing now. So it's all about when is the right time for you, even if you ever want to go all in, right? All in meaning you're full-time with your entrepreneurship venture, but that's the first thing. Don't feel pressured to go all in, right? And when you go all in is another big question that I hear a lot, and it's also one that I--challenge that I dealt with, and, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. Everyone has to lok at their particular situation to know when is the right time, but I will say that there's probably about four or five things that, you know, anyone that's in that situation is looking to do, to transition, to go all in, they should be looking at. Like, the first thing is, you know, what does your business require? Like, for example, if you're gonna launch a catering business versus a restaurant, you know, they're two very different demands and requirements, right? When you're talking about a restaurant, you have to deal with a storefront, which likely comes with remodeling, et cetera. Not the typical type of thing that you can get, you know, to market on the weekends and evenings, right? Whereas a catering service, you can do that evenings, weekends. You can pretty much side-hustle that until you actually get paying customers before you even have to leave your job. So the type of business that you're looking to start a lot of times will dictate largely when you can actually go all in or if and when you can actually cut the 9-to-5 path. The other thing you've got to look at is, you know, what type of support do you have going into it, right? Do you have people, whether it's family members or friends, that can help you out early on without having to get paid, right? I mean, early on there's no cash coming in. To get it stood up, you're gonna need people to help. You're gonna need your team. What type of support do you have? If you have a pretty good support system, you may be able to go all in a little bit sooner. Also you've got to look at, you know, what are your responsibilities in terms of financially and with people, right? Are you 21 years old, no kids, no family, very low bills? You know, that gives you a whole lot more flexibility in terms of what you can do sooner and the risks that you can take, whereas if you are--like, in my situation, I started, you know, Role Tea already in my mid-30s. Like I said, I'm a father, newly father, so I have to move a lot different in that situation.Zach: Congratulations on that, by the way.Mike: Oh, I definitely appreciate it, man. Fatherhood is a lot of fun, a lot of fun. But yeah, you have to move a lot different if you have a lot of financial responsibilities and people responsibilities. Obviously you have to be a little bit more smart about when you go all in. You also might have to look at are there skills that you just don't have yet but you need to develop before you go all in, right? And then lastly, this is probably often times, you know, skipped and not really taken into consideration, but you definitely have to look at what's your appetite for risk and uncertainty, right? Once you pull the plug on that 9-to-5 and you're all in, you know, on the good side is it really motivates you to have a sense of urgency, to move forward fast, but at the same time it can also be stressful by not having that paycheck coming in every week or two or whatever it was you got paid, and that can definitely cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and if you're the type of person that doesn't deal well with that type of uncertainty and stress, #1: you're probably going to struggle as an entrepreneur, 'cause that's gonna come naturally, but that may also dictate you keeping your business as a side hustle a little bit longer. So I never tell someone exactly what to do in that situation, but I would definitely tell you that those are probably the four or five things that you should be thinking about in your situation to determine, you know, when you go all in or if you go all in at all.Zach: And so, you know--and I alluded to this earlier about some of your challenges as a black entrepreneur, but the research I was speaking to specifically had to do with the variance in acquiring capital, right? So venture capital, angel investments, and other types of non-business loan-sourced funding. I'm curious, have you had any challenges in acquiring that type of funding, and really what's been your journey in building those relationships with those with access with the capital to help your ventures?Mike: Yeah, that's a great question. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges that I'm finding with not just our business but other black-owned entrepreneurs, and it's a complex one, which I--I know that this is probably an area of business that's foreign to a lot of people, so I definitely want to make sure I kind of break this down because, you know, I have an MBA, but yet 3 years ago I didn't understand hardly anything about the idea of raising capital. I've had to learn a lot through this venture, and the challenges that are unique to African-Americans is--it's kind of a snowball effect, so let me explain it like this. So investment in startups typically happens in a progression, right? So, you know, the first step is typically money out of your own pocket, right? So that's called bootstrapping, right? Maybe you've worked in the corporate world for a number of years, you've built up some savings. Maybe you got an inheritance. Whatever the case may be, right? But you need some sort of cash to get things going very early on. That's typically the first step. Second step is you look to friends and family, right? "Who do I know in my own personal network?" Friends, family, associates, that have the means to write a $10, 20, 30, 50,000 check or more, right? That's the second step, and then once you get past that, then you get into what's called angel investors, which are typically either high net worth or high-income individuals who choose to invest in startups, right? And then lastly you get to venture capital, which essentially are, you know, funds that investors who are called limited partners, or LPs, invest in, and they then have managers of those funds look for startups to invest in, right? And they can go from $500,000 up to, you know, $100,000,000, right? They write very large checks. So that's the typical progression of a startup raising capital for their business. So let's think about that, right? Now, what we know about African-Americans is we traditionally have a lower income than non-whites. We also traditionally have a lower net worth, which is probably more significant, than whites. So going back to the very first step in that progression, right? Most of us could struggle with having the means to even bootstrap, to have that $20, 30, 50,000 just to get started, right? Because of the points that I just made, right? And if you get past that hurdle, then now you have to find friends and family that also can write that $10, 15, 20,000 check or more. Again, that's a struggle that's unique for African-Americans moreso than others because of the points that I just made. So right out the gate as an African-American entrepreneur you have some disadvantages, right? And VCs and angels, you have to get past those first couple stages typically before they're even interested in looking at your business, right? And the crazy thing about investment, the investment world, that I've learned is investors rely significantly on their personal networks to even be introduced to an entrepreneur to invest in. So they're--again, how many African-Americans have the social network, the connections that people that have that kind of means to write those checks, right? So it's a snowball effect that, collectively speaking, puts us at a disadvantage, and again, that's definitely a challenge that is well-documented. We've experienced it. Other founders that we know have experienced it, but, you know, how you deal with that is--again, I don't want to make it sound simple, but the first thing that we've tried to do is just bridge that gap in terms of relationships, right? And that's really done largely by just putting yourself out there, putting yourself in situations to meet people that can invest in your brand. So, you know, the very first angel investor that we had we met at the Black Enterprise Entrepreneurs Summit last year. We were chosen as a finalist to pitch in that competition, so, you know, we got a lot of visibility at that show down in Houston last year. We met with our first investor there, our first angel investor I should say, and, you know, months down the road after the rapport was established he decided to invest in us, right? So that was an example of where we had to kind of bridge that gap by just going out and making those connections, and then the second thing really is just--you know, you have to have the mindset that you're gonna make your startup undeniable, right? You know, if someone says no now, which we've definitely heard tons of nos, and you're gonna hear nos. Raising capital is very difficult for any startup, so you have to have the mindset that, you know, "Okay, you say no today, but we're gonna build up the traction that we need over the next 6 months to 12 months to the point where if you say no you're basically foolish," right? So you just have to make your startup--you have to make your startup undeniable, 'cause everyone likes to make money, and I think it's a little bit more of a challenge to show that we can do that, but, you know, if you can definitely demonstrate that, people will invest in your startup. It's just a little bit difficult for us for those reasons.Zach: That's just such a great point around--especially when you started--when you talked about, like, the various levels of investment, right? So I'll even use Living Corporate as an example. For us, you know, I'm one of the few people in my family even in corporate America. We don't all have money like that. I certainly would not--I don't even feel comfortable. I mean, and some of that might just be culture too, Mike. I don't feel comfortable walking to a member of my family talking about, "Hey, would you mind investing $10,000 to help us hire writers and videographers and so on, so on, and so forth," and really invest in Living Corporate. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like, just the thought of that, right? And then, you know, we had an episode again in season 1 when we were talking about family [inaudible]--like, the wealth gap. The wealth inequality gap, and there's plenty of research to show that in the next 10, 20 years, that the average value of a black home will be zero dollars, right? So you're talking about the fact that starting up and getting all this capital, for a community who has no money--like, we don't have the centuries of privilege and things of that nature to have an uncle or a second cousin who can write a check, right? And I think that's just a really good point. You know, I'm curious about Role Tea, so let's dig into that a little bit more. So first off, when can Living Corporate get a case of the tea?Mike: I'm always open to giving Role Tea to whoever wants it, so yeah, I'll let you go with the second question.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so we're good on the tea. And then why tea? Why Role Tea, and then what was the inspiration behind Role Tea?Mike: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we definitely got you on the case. No problem there. As far as the inspiration for the tea, we always say on the--we launched the tea 2 years ago, but the idea for Role Tea really started probably in my early 20s more than 10 years ago where I had the experience of losing 100 pounds, right? So, you know, I'm like 22 years old, and I get that scale shock where I go to the doctor and--I know I'm obviously way too big, but I didn't realize I had actually gone over 300 pounds, and I'm like, "Man," like, "Okay, something's gotta change." So at that point my relationship with food changed, and I learned that, you know, a lot of the traditional foods and beverages that I had consumed, that were, you know, typically less than healthy, right, if I'm creative I can remix those recipes to be better for me, still taste good, and actually serve a purpose to either help me feel better or perform better, and so, you know, over the course of the next 2 to 3 years I lost 100 pounds just, you know, changing the way I ate and exercising more, et cetera. So fast forward to 2015. At this time I was training for a boxing match. I'm a huge boxing fan. I've boxed for several years. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm passionate about boxing just as I am about business, but I was training for a boxing match in 2015, and I noticed--again, now in my mid-30s, you know, after training, what used to take a day or two to feel normal again, not feel sore, not feel stiff, was now taking 2 or 3 days, right? So I started to research beverages that I could drink--you know, not supplements, but just every day traditional beverages--Zach: Natural.Mike: Yeah, natural beverages that I could incorporate into my diet that may help, and so, you know, that's when I learned about ingredients like tumeric and ginger and, you know, green tea and tart cherries, which all have natural anti-inflammatory properties, and so I looked for options in the store, and virtually everything I saw was $6 or $7 bottles of juice, [inaudible] sugar. So, you know, my background is in innovation, new product development and launches, so I immediately saw a business opportunity. I went to a friend of mine named Corey Benson with the idea, and he has an operations background. He was running a manufacturing plant at the time, and he said, "You know what, man? Like, I see people every day that are standing up at the job for 9, 10 hours a day. They're popping Aleves. They're, you know, popping Advils and drinking Mountain Dews to deal with the soreness from just their job," right? So he immediately saw the pain point that, you know, the concept that we were thinking about would address, but he saw it from a regular 9-to-5 job, whereas I was dealing with it from a weekend warrior boxing perspective, right? So we immediately saw, like, "Wow, this whole thing around inflammation and a functional beverage that can help with that has some legs, and it probably could impact a lot of people." So from there we were ready to go. We started to research the industry a lot more in 2015 and 2016. We worked with a development company to take our recipes that we had created with tea and juice and spices, like tumeric and ginger, to basically create a product that could be sold on a shelf. We chose tea because, you know, tea is a very popular drink, and it still is. Shout-out to Guru, even though he talked about lemonade. But tea's a very popular drink, and the great thing about it is, again, you know, a lot of the options before were juices, which is more expensive. Tea is a much less expensive catalyst to use to deliver functional spices and benefits, so we figured we would be able to create a functional drink that's also affordable, right? So we're probably one of the first functional beverages in stores like Whole Foods and Wegmans that was under $3 per bottle, and again--plus I'm a huge iced tea fan, right? So that was a natural ingredient, or product, to use. So, you know, we worked through the recipe process in 2016, and we launched a product literally the night before Thanksgiving in the D.C. Metro area in 2016, and, you know, we started off just very independent, selling out of the trunk of our cars, and, you know, now we're currently sold in over 100 locations, from Virginia up to upstate New York as well as a few states in the Midwest. So right now we're just, you know, looking to continue to grow the business, bring on more partners, bring on more investors, and just see how far it can go.Zach: Man, that's incredible, man. You know, and down the road, once, you know, we get this tea and we drink it, we'll make sure to shout y'all out on the podcast on the part of our Favorite Things.Mike: Definitely. Definitely do that.Zach: Yeah, man. Now, this has been a great conversation. I really want to know where people can learn more about Role Tea and where they can get some.Mike: Yeah, yeah. So Role Tea--and that's R-O-L-E, as in, like, play your role. Role Tea is sold online, so you can see us at RoleTea.com. R-O-L-E-T-E-A dot com. We're also sold on the East Coast, primarily in stores like Wegmans as well as some independent stores in the D.C. Metro area. So yeah, check us out online, RoleTea.com. A lot of good information there. You can order right through that website. Yeah.Zach: That's what's up, man. Now, look, before we get out of here, do you have any parting thoughts or shout-outs?Mike: Yeah, I definitely want to shout-out everyone that has tried Role Tea, everyone that will try Role Tea, including you, Zach. Yeah, everyone that's worked with the brand to help get us this far, to this point, definitely appreciate the support. I definitely want to shout-out my co-founder Corey Benson. Definitely want to shout-out, you know, again, everyone that's listening to this podcast. I didn't get a chance to say this before, man, but when I first heard about this podcast and what you guys are attempting to do as far as help educate people in how to navigate, you know, the world of corporate America, I'm like, "Man, that's definitely something that's needed." Like you mentioned yourself, you're a first-generation corporate professional, right? Did I hear that right?Zach: Right.Mike: Yep, so same here. You know, first in my family to, you know, get a bachelor's degree, master's degree, corporate world and, you know, going into the corporate world I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm ready for success based on my education," but I quickly learned that most of what determines your success in that world is the things that are not taught in the classroom, right? It's the soft skills. It's the implied cultural norms that are often times a little bit different than what we grew up with, so, you know, a lot of us learn those lessons on the job as opposed to being prepared beforehand. So this podcast is doing a great service to help educate young professionals on those waters before they get into them, so kudos to you guys, and again, I'm glad to be a part of this.Zach: Man, Mike, thank you so much for the kind words. Again, the drink, Role Tea--like know your role, R-O-L-E T-E-A, and we're excited to give it a little review. So I appreciate your time. We consider you a friend of the show. Can't wait to have you back, man.Mike: Definitely appreciate it, man.Zach: Peace.Mike: Peace.Ade: And we're back. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview, Zach. I mean, I've known Mike for a little while now. He's been a great friend and supporter. Like, he's always good, not only to listen to you for advice but just listen to his experiences, and how he's been able to grow Role Tea as a brand has been very inspiring, and I'm so glad that we got so much of that in that interview.Zach: No, for sure. In our discussion, and outside of it too, we talked about--just talked about his history and talked about the challenges of building up his brand and really, like, trying and failing at some other things too, but super happy he was on the show, and hopefully we'll get some--we'll get some tea out of this. He told me he'd actually send us a couple pallets. I don't know about pallets, but he said he'd send--Ade: Word?Zach: Yeah. Not pallets, 'cause pallets sounds like--Ade: 'Cause that tea is delicious.Zach: Yeah. No, I've heard it's--I haven't had any yet, but I'm positive that once I have it I'm gonna enjoy it.Ade: Okay. Well, I am keeping an eye out, because Role Tea is amazing. Anyway, awesome. Thank you, and shout-out again to Mike Johnson and Role Tea. I'm looking forward to that tea.Zach: Salute to Mike. Okay, so Favorite Things?Ade: Favorite Things. Let's go. All right.Zach: All right, cool. So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Now, some of y'all are like, "Super Smash Bros.? What's that?" But let me tell you something, those who know--Pusha T voice. "If you know, you know." So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on my Nintendo Switch. It's super fun. I play in the evening after a long day at work, and I love it because I can just kind of pick it up. I don't have to, like, sit down in front of a big TV, boot up the game. I can just pick up my handheld, boot it up. And for those who want to know, my favorite--my main character is Chrom. So again, for those who are kind of, like, outside of this whole video game space, Super Smash Bros. is a Nintendo game, right, but it's like you can, like, pick Nintendo characters against each other to fight, right? But, like, not in a, like, super violent Mortal Kombat way. More, like, kind of, like, a cartoonish, fun way, but it's a deep, deep game, right? So you can put Mario against Sonic. You can put Princess Peach against Captain Falcon or Fox or Falco or Ganondorf versus Kirby. You can do all kinds of crazy match-ups, right? Super fun, and so it's been cool. It's a really good stress reliever. That--you know, working out sometimes, you don't want to necessarily want to get up and work out. Forgive me. I don't want to work out all the time. Sometimes I just want to kind of veg out, and it's great. It's great for that. So that's my favorite thing.Ade: Okay, self-care. I see you.Zach: That's right.Ade: So my favorite thing lately has been a book called Cracking the Coding Interview. It's been invaluable, I think. I struggle--for those of you who are just joining us, just in case this is your very first Living Corporate episode ever, I am switching careers, or I'm in the process of switching careers. I'm becoming a software engineer, and part of that process is self-teaching both foundational concepts and computer science, but also understanding algorithms, binary trees. Just how the very technical elements of software engineering, something that you are supposed to pick up in a classroom that I did not have the luxury of doing, therefore I have to teach myself. And there are also books that exist out there that kind of help you through the process of thinking through and developing strategies for coding interviews. I'm discussing it like it's a journal or something like that, [inaudible], but yeah, it's been a really important book, and I've kind of been adding more and more base computer science books and algorithm books to my library, right next to Frantz Fanon and Audre Lorde. So yeah, those are my favorite things.Zach: That's a sick combination though. That's dope.Ade: I want you to know our library in our home consists of tax law code and regulations and vegan chef--vegan cookbooks and regular cookbooks and Sister Outsider. [laughs] And computer science books and data science books.Zach: That's dope though.Ade: Oh, and [Ola had a?] self-help book. So there's no way you can walk into my home and not have something to read.Zach: You're gonna have something. You're gonna learn about something.Ade: There will be something available to edify you. I even have, like, fiction novels, everything from John Green to Grisham to Tomi Adeyemi, which, again, shout-out to her.Zach: Shout-out to her. No, straight up. She's great.Ade: I'm looking up to the next book in the series, by the way. Okay, we have veered so far off track. Did you have--Zach: Good. It's a Favorite Things segment. We're supposed to turn up. It's cool.Ade: You know what? You're right. You're right. Sir, sir. Sir. [Not turning up. Cruise?]. I'm tired. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] [Turn me up. Cruise?]Ade: Nope, I'm tired of you.Zach: Okay. No, no, no, but that's dope. So look, you know, y'all, if it wasn't evident by our kickoff episode, as well as our Supporting Black Women at Work section, the B-Side that we had as well as the full episode, we're here, man.Ade: We outchea.Zach: We're gonna have a good time this season. Make sure you keep checking us out. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Please say the dahs.Ade: The dash.Zach: If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, just email us or hit us on DM, right? We out here. Don't forget to give us 5 stars too. Now, look, some of y'all actually been responding and gave us some stars, but not all of y'all though. That's right, I'm looking at you. That's right. We need those 5 stars, okay? Right? Am I tripping, Ade? Do we need the 5 stars or nah?Ade: We need the 5 stars.Zach: We need the 5 stars. Okay, cool. Look, y'all. That does it for us. We'll catch y'all next week. This has been Zach.Ade: And this is Ade. Free 21 Savage.Zach: Free 21 Savage. Peace.Ade: Peace.

On the fifth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield advises us on what he considers to be the most effective ways to ask a question with 5 helpful tips. Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, y'all? It's Tristan from Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. Today we're going to discuss how to properly ask questions. Have you ever asked a question and gotten a response that doesn't make sense? The issue may not lie with the other person but in the way you asked your question. Questions are the cornerstone of communication, and yet many of us don't frame or ask our questions appropriately. Questions allow you to learn, get answers, give answers, mentor people, and ultimately develop a reputation, but that's all only if you utilize them correctly. So here's a few tips on how to ask great questions. Number one, try to stick to one sentence. You may have to give some background, which is okay, but try to limit the actual question to a single sentence. This helps in keeping your questions open-ended. Number two, don't offer answers unless those are truly the only options. In doing so, you limit the other person, which you never want to do, because I can guarantee you've only thought about a few of the possible options. Number three, try not to sway the other person. While you may know the answer, your questions should be answer-neutral, allowing the person to answer them naturally. Number four, keep your talking to a minimum. The entire essence of a great question is to find out what the other person knows. If you ask the question in the right manner, you'll probably learn something. Number five, rinse and repeat for follow-up questions. Keep them neutral, open-ended, and as brief as possible. Asking better questions almost always results in better outcomes. Incorporate these tips when asking questions and start getting the answers that you're seeking. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

The founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls Alicia Davis joins the show to discuss a very important topic: what to do when you're unemployed. She also relates her own experience with unemployment and shares effective advice regarding how to handle it. Connect with Alicia: LinkedIn, Cubicles & Curls website, IG, TwitterConnect with us! LinktreeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a special B-Side. For those of you who are new here, B-Sides are essentially episodes we have in-between our more formal episodes, and they are even somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled content. That's right, more lit. Now again, this B-Side is special, because we have Alicia Davis, CEO and founder of Cubicles and Curls. Alicia, please introduce yourself.Alicia: What up? This is Alicia. I am the creator and founder of Cubicles and Curls, which is a blog or blog, you know, platform, for black professionals doing their natural hair thing, doing their career thing. We talk about hair care, we talk about hair styling, we talk about career advice. The whole thing.Zach: Come on, now. That's right, and it's special also not just because Alicia is here--that's plenty special of course, but because we're doing, like, an interview/collab episode. That's right. Alicia, why don't you walk through how we're gonna do this today?Alicia: All right. So today's episode is something that I felt was very important to talk about, 'cause we don't talk about it enough. We're talking about what to do when you are unemployed, and that could be, you know, you got fired, laid off, underemployed, you know, just haven't found a job yet. [Everyone?] goes through it at some point in their life, and we really wanted to get into the whole nitty-gritty of how that feels, what to do, how to look for a next job, and, just, you know, letting you know it's okay and it happens.Zach: That's a great subject. I'm excited about this because--you know, labor statistics show that non-white professionals are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to be unemployed for longer stints of time, so it's really important that we, I believe, have this conversation. Have fun with it of course, but really just address it, and address it courageously, because it's part of your career journey. And there's a quote here. Do you want me to read it or do you want to read it, Alicia?Alicia: Sure, I'll read it if you're talking about the Anna Wintour quote.Zach: Yes.Alicia: So Anna Wintour, who is the editor of Harper's Bazaar--sorry, no, I think she's the editor of Vogue. She used to work for Harper's Bazaar, and she said, "I worked for America's Harper's Bazaar. They fired me. I recommend they all get fired, because it's a great learning experience."Zach: For sure, for sure, for sure. So right, we want to talk about our experiences of losing jobs, what we did during unemployment, and what we did to find a new job. So Alicia, do you want to start or do you want me to start?Alicia: Yeah, sure. So I'll start.Zach: Okay.Alicia: You know, I would like to say that I've probably been unemployed a total of three times, under different circumstances. You know, once when I was in college. You know, another time it was just kind of, like, an issue of lack of work. You know, the company had to downsize. And another time I actually got fired. So, you know, those experiences really resonated with me, because, you know, something that I think we're ashamed of a lot, and one thing--when I was going through that at first I was just so down, but once I got out of it I kind of saw it for the gift that it was at that time.Zach: Yeah. No, for sure. So I was thinking about this--as we met of course and you proposed this topic, I was thinking "Okay, so I don't think I've ever been fired," right? And I haven't really ever been, like, asked to resign or anything like that either, but I do remember in college just not having a job and desperately wanting a job, and that journey of, like, getting into the workforce for the first time for real and trying to, like, prepare myself for a real career after college. I also remember--though I did not get fired and I wasn't asked to resign, I do remember quitting a job because the environment was so toxic, right? It was super racist, and I was getting called out on my name and threatened and things of that nature, which was, like, genuinely a dangerous and toxic environment, and I remember for about 3 or 4 months I was just, like, freelance consulting. I remember that, and that was a major part of my learning journey as well. So I'm excited about this for sure. And so then what did you do to find a job? Like, in those instances--Alicia: [inaudible] fired?Zach: Yes.Alicia: Oh, sorry.Zach: No, go ahead.Alicia: I said not everyone's been fired, but I think everyone faces unemployment, either after college or underemployment, you know? Sometimes things just happen where you're in-between jobs or, like you said, you quit 'cause you just can't take it anymore, and so I think at some point everybody goes through one of these phases where you're just, you know, in-between jobs.Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, something I've also realized is how big--so the gig economy, which is, like, a whole 'nother podcast episode, but in that same vein, contract employment, right, and working through temp agencies and contracting agencies where you're not, like, a--you're not your own boss, but, like, you're working through someone--you're working through an agency that if they don't staff you on a role, then you don't have any--you don't have any paper, right? And there's--that type of work lends itself to being underemployed for months at a time.Alicia: Exactly, and even if you are making paper you don't have benefits.Zach: Right, right. You don't have benefits, right. So yeah, I mean, let me ask you, what did you do--in those seasons of unemployment, what were you doing to find a new job?Alicia: Right. So the first time, you know, when I got laid off, my company was downsizing, you know? It just was a matter of how scared--I had moved out, like, boldly moved out of my mother's house for a year, and I was like, "I have to make ends meet." So, you know, I reached out to, like, my contacts. I was, like, really just kind of nervous about it, you know? And I found a job kind of quickly, just 'cause, like, I needed something to do. So I found a job. It was decent. I was like, "Okay, we can do this." It wasn't really what I wanted to do. It was outside of my field, but it was a job. It had benefits, and I was happy for it until, you know, finally it kind of came out that really that job wasn't gonna be a good fit, and, you know, they agreed it wasn't a good fit. We had to part ways. After that, I was unemployed for a year, but this time moreso voluntarily. I wasn't looking for a job at first because I really wanted to use the time--you know, 'cause prior to that I was unemployed for 2 months, and I was like, "If I ever find myself in that situation again, I'm gonna use the time a little differently." So I used the time to kind of reassess the kind of person I am, what my goals are, work on projects that I didn't get time to do when I was working full-time, and I was really--you know, I had saved up enough, so I was really just working to, you know, get myself ready to work and to come back to the workforce before I started looking for a new job.Zach: So those are great points, and it's interesting 'cause I think, for me, when I took a step away from that really toxic job, I was doing a lot of freelancing, like, contract work and kind of, like, staff agency stuff, and I really had to really take--for me, what I learned and what I really had to really pause and--there was a certain level of intentionality on my side of "Okay, well, before I just throw myself headlong into something else, what do I really need to, like--" 'Cause that was--I probably need to find some healing from that situation, right? And everybody who quits or leaves a job or--you know, it's not that it always is gonna be traumatic per se, but listen, man, leaving a job is hard. Like, even if you leave a job for something else that might be better, you kind of got to wash some of that old stuff off, right? Like, you need to--like, there needs to be a certain part of you that needs to kind of let it go. It's kind of like getting out of a relationship or--to be honest, right? Like, platonic or romantic.Alicia: Yeah, 'cause when I was [single?] I was like, "Am I describing my breakup?" Or "Am I describing when I left a guy?"Zach: And then, you know, also, you know, your living situation and your--you know, your savings and your severance and unemployment insurance, stuff like that. I mean, having those things lined up too. Thankfully for me, when I was doing the contract work and the checks were not as steady because I was freelancing and doing a bunch of different other consulting work, my wife had a job at the time, so--and because of the way that we had budgeted and we lived under our means, you know, nothing went under, by the grace of God, but it's important to think about those things too. So, you know, regardless of what they say, when you resign--when you leave a job, regardless if you leave--if you leave a job for another job or you leave a job just because "I got to leave"--people say "Don't make an emotional decision." Listen, it's always gonna be an emotional decision. You will never be able to, quote unquote, take the emotions out of it. There's gonna be some emotion involved with you transitioning away. At the same time, it's important to think through, like, "Okay, what are my plans once these checks stop," right?Alicia: Mm-hmm, yep. And, you know, to that it's really--one thing I want to tell people is if you're quitting, you need to make sure you have the financial means, but however if you're getting laid off, you might not have had that stacked up, you know? And one of the first things I did when I was laid off, I was like, "Well, can I get--" You know, talked about severance and all that stuff, and I was like, "Can I get unemployment?" And, you know, there's different--I don't know how it works in every state, but, you know, some states you have to have certain reasons. So if you're fired you might not be able to get unemployment, but if you're laid off you could, you know? So really that's a conversation--and it is emotional like you said, but that's really a conversation you do want to have with HR no matter what the circumstances and apply for unemployment right away if you can. If you can't apply for unemployment, you know, what I did too--you know, when I had left the second job that I got after I, you know, was laid off for a year, I actually applied to be an SAT teacher, because I was like, "Well, what other skills do I have?" And randomly I got an email, and it was from Kaplan saying, "Hey, do you want to do SAT teaching?" And I was like, "Oh, I can do that," you know? You might want to--like you said, you tapped into your freelancing. You know, think of some other things you can do with the internet. You know, there's so many opportunities to, you know, make a little money on the side to hold you over until you can find something else. And I really want to stress, you know, utilizing those resources as best as you can. If you're in your home town, you know, you might want to live with your parents. You might want to, like, rent out your apartment, you know, temporarily, Airbnb, whatever you need to do to make sure that you're stable, 'cause if you feel like you're drowning and you're on the verge of, you know, going into bankruptcy, you're not gonna be able to concentrate on getting better and healing.Zach: That's a good point, and it sounds as if really you were having to flex a few different creative muscles.Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yep, that's exactly what happened.Zach: And I think--which leads to another point. You know, not everyone is super creative and, like, industrious in that way, and so I think it's important to talk to people before you decide to leave, or if you know you're about to get fired or let go or there's some type of downsizing, have some trust and confidants around you that you can talk to as things are happening so they can maybe help you kind of navigate or they can point you in the direction of someone who can help you figure out how to--what the next season looks like.Alicia: Exactly.Zach: I know for me--I know for me, when I did leave--and I was depressed. Like, we've talked about mental health and mental wellness on Living Corporate before. I have no shame in saying that. When I quit that job, I was genuinely depressed and ended up gaining a lot of weight, and so--and did not take care of myself, and it took me--it took me some years to, like, lose that weight--and a little bit more, but to lose that weight that I had gained, and it was crazy because by the time, like, another opportunity came up that was, like, a great opportunity, and I got the job, but I wasn't in the best of shape. I wasn't at my best self, and so I think it's important as well, like, when you're in that season, that off-season, quote unquote, that you don't fall off, right? Like, go to the gym. Like, if you have--if you have some type of--whatever your belief system or structure is, pour into your local community. Like, continue to invest in yourself, that way when you show up at the next job you glowed up. Now, again, they hired you, so you have some level of [gold regards?], but for you to be at your best self--'cause I tell you, I regret not being healthier when I started my job, because I would've--you know, I would've enjoyed some things better. When I took business trips, I would have--I would have been more comfortable. I would have been able to explore the cities more, things of that nature, but I wasn't able to because I wasn't--I was not at a healthy--I wasn't physically healthy.Alicia: Yeah. And you know, I want to peel that back a little bit, you know? Like, when I was laid off as well, I was depressed, and, you know, I gained weight. I remember when I did have an interview I couldn't even fit into any of my suits, and I didn't have any money to buy a new suit 'cause I'm, you know, unemployed, but I really want to peel back. You know, a lot of people, when they find themselves in a situation, they do fall into these depressive episodes, and it's really important to--I mean, it's important to let yourself feel the emotions, but you have to tap into your support system, and I think a lot of times why we fall into those depressive episodes is because 1. because of the trauma of what happened and 2. because we assign a lot of self-worth to having a job, you know? I was embarrassed to go to, you know, events or leave the house 'cause I didn't want anyone to ask me "What are you doing? When are you finding a job?" Because I felt so ashamed to just not be having a job for the first time, you know? And I think it's really important. One of the things I did, you know, when I was, you know, unemployed the second time and I was using that me time was detaching my self-worth from what I do to get paid, you know? What my full-time employment is, and I think that's something, you know, a lot of people need their support system and help to get out of, and I think if anything I just really want to stress that part alone, that you are not your job. You're more than your job. Your job is gonna change 20 times over, and you're still gonna be that person you are.Zach: That's so true, and I believe--well, we live in a capitalistic society, and the cost of living is going up, and wages aren't necessarily matching the cost of living as it continues to increase, and so more and more folks are switching from work/life balance to work/life blend, because really our lives have become work, right? By some degree or another. That's why the gig economy is popping like it is. You know, a lot of people are doing full-time jobs and they're also Uber drivers and Favor delivers. Shout-out Favor, shout-out Uber. Y'all are not sponsors, but if y'all hear this, holla at your boy.Alicia: What's Favor? We don't have that here.Zach: So Favor is a food delivery service. It's kind of like--so y'all have Uber Eats, right?Alicia: Like Grubhub?Zach: Yeah, like Grubhub.Alicia: That's what we have.Zach: Okay. Yeah--Alicia: Okay.Zach: Y'all also have DoorDash though, right?Alicia: We do. We just got that.Zach: Listen, they getting all this free pub.Alicia: I know.Zach: But whatever, it's cool. Favor is similar to DoorDash. Anyway, it's hard not to disassociate yourself from what you do that keeps food on your table, but the more you can really align yourself with whatever--your family, your community, volunteer efforts, and things that really keep you going spiritually, mentally, emotionally, that's gonna help you, because if all you are is your job, and you lose your--Alicia: Zach? Sorry, you cut out real quick.Zach: Oh. Can you hear me now?Alicia: Sorry. Yeah, I can hear you now.Zach: Okay, cool. Because if all you have is your job and you lose your job, then what do you have? So it's important that you're always thinking about that, and I think we're in a really interesting season of self-care and mental and emotional wellness. I think those spaces have been rapidly growing over the past 6 or 7 years, especially for black and brown people, and so I think it's important, like, to invest in some things of that nature just while you have a job. Like, invest in those things while things are good, that way you're not scrambling if something changes.Alicia: Mm-hmm. It's all about foundation.Zach: It is, it is. So to your point though about, you know, being laid off or fired, it's not a mark of shame, and really there's only so much about you keeping your job that's in your control, and I think that's the thing about--there's a term when you talk about--oh, yes, job security. Yes, that's the term. So job security is a myth, but most people think "If I have a job, and I'm getting paid a salary, then I'm going to--" Like, "Nothing can happen that's gonna change me from having that job." Like, we are--we buy into a certain level of--we buy into a narrative that our jobs are extremely stable and that having a quote unquote "steady paycheck" is more reliable than, like, being an entrepreneur or whatever the case is, but, you know, the reality is unless you're, like, a VP, like, someone very senior at an organization, you're really only, like, one or two decisions away from you not having a job, right? And it's interesting as I've gotten a little bit older. Like, I'm 29, and as I've gotten a little bit older and I'm kind of moving up the ladder a little bit--I'm a manager, so I'm not in any real--I'm not making no real moves, but I see a few things differently now than I did at--like, when I was an associate or an entry-level employee, because I'm starting to see how things kind of move and push together.Alicia: Behind the scenes.Zach: Behind the scenes, and, like, when I was--and even before my current industry, which is consulting, I was an HR business partner, and I was working with the--like, with the CHRO. I was working with the COO of a start-up, and I was just noticing, "Okay--" There'd be people, like, three or four, five, six, seven levels under him, under me at the time, and in their world they're thinking, like, everything's hunky-dory, it's all great, blah-blah-blah. They don't know, like, their boss is about to get fired. They're about to get moved to a whole 'nother department. And the higher up you go, it doesn't seem like anything to you. Like, you have to really practice empathy as you get higher up because at the higher--it doesn't seem like anything to you, but to them, like, their whole world has changed, and so I'm just thinking more and more about that. Like, if you're an entry-level employee, if you're a non-executive employee, they can make one decision, and you end up moving from Department A to Department G or Department G to unemployment, and it's like that. So there's--it's not in your control. What's in your control is your attitude, your level of gratefulness, and how you show up to work every day, and then--and how flexible you're being and prepared you're being to find that next thing, but I think sometimes, because we buy into the fact that, like, these jobs are promised and that--and that things are just so secure that we can't fathom, or we kind of--I know I did. I'll speak for myself, that I really was shook when I walked away and I was like, "Wait, but I thought this was gonna work out. I thought this. I thought this. I thought that." You know? Am I making any sense?Alicia: Yep, absolutely, and I think that--I really like that emphasis of "it's not in your control," you know? You could have been the best worker, and sometimes it's just a numbers thing, you know? And I feel like once you accept that, you know--if you did your best, fine. If you didn't do your best and you got laid off, you know, really just take time to just learn from, "Okay, what could I change for next time?" I think that, you know, focusing on what you can control really can help prevent you from going into that whole spiral afterwards.Zach: And it takes a while. Like, sometimes it may take--you know, so for me, like I said, I quit that job. I was doing some freelance stuff, and I was underemployed for about 3.5, 4 months, and I've talked to people and they'll be like, "Man, Zach, that is no time." Like, "There are people who are unemployed, you know, 6 months to a year." It happens. Okay, so let's--go ahead, go ahead.Alicia: Well, I mean, speaking of that, you know, we should probably pivot into what do you do when you're unemployed and looking for that next job?Zach: No, that's super true. Okay, so figuring out what you liked and didn't like about your last position and crafting--can help you craft an ideal position and picture for your next job, right?Alicia: Yep. You know, I think a lot of times we either over-romanticize our jobs or over-demonize them, you know? So we're like, "That place was terrible," or "This is the best place I'm ever gonna work," you know? And I think it's really important to really think about what you did and didn't like about that job, and when you're going into interviews or applying to jobs, look for the signs. Again, it feels like I'm talking about a relationship, but, you know, I guess we spend so much time at work it might as well be.Zach: But it is though. You spend more time at work than you do with your family.Alicia: You do, exactly. So, I mean, I guess the same tenets apply here. So, you know, you might have really noticed, "Okay, this is what I enjoy about my position. I enjoy doing these things, and I don't enjoy doing these things." Sometimes I was even able to, like, look at job descriptions, and I could tell "This isn't the place." It wasn't gonna--like, you know, "can work without structure," you know? "Quick on her feet. Doesn't need much direction." And I was like, "So you're basically saying you don't know what you're doing, and you want me to come in and figure it out, and you're not gonna help me at all?" And I was like, "I'm good," you know? Like, you learn how to read in-between the lines after a while. I remember I said to one of my friends, "This job wants me to work 20 hours a day, I can tell." They didn't say it, but I know what "fast-paced environment" and "willing to go the extra mile" means, you know?Zach: Oh, wow. Mm-mm.Alicia: Mm-hmm. They're setting you up to be like, "This is gonna be hard," and if that's not something you want, you know, you've got to read in-between those lines. Even in the interview, you know, we get so scared asking people questions, like, the real questions about these positions, but that's your only chance to figure out if it's gonna be right for you before you get in there. So, you know, ask them, "Why did the last person leave?" You know? "What's the hardest part about this job?" You know? Or "What are the challenges of this job?" Or "Who do you think is gonna be a fit for this?" And be realistic with yourself of if what they're saying sounds right to you.Zach: Those are great--that's just great advice. You know what? Alicia, you should really have, like, a blog or something. Oh, wait! [both laugh] Okay. So no, you're right though, and it's also recognizing what your non-negotiables are, right? So for me, I know--like I said, I quit that one job 'cause it was just super toxic, but I've quit some other jobs too. Like, some of my first--I was working at a major retailer, and I realized that for me--I had to walk away from that job because the scope was way too small. Like, it was focused on a store. That was it. And so I knew that when I quit my--when I quit that job I said, "Okay, I gotta find a new job that's gonna give me more space to be autonomous and be creative and really flex some other muscles that I believe I have," and so a non-negotiable for me was working in the retail industry at a store level. Like, that was a non-negotiable--that was a non-negotiable for me. A non-negotiable was having an extremely limited scope. That was a non-negotiable for me, but you learn that after you reflect and think through what you did and did not like about your last place of employment. There's things I did like from that job, and so I took that things forward as well, but--we're just gonna keep on relationship references. Sometimes we have friends--and if you don't have any friends like this, then look in the mirror and then point at the mirror, and then you're that person--they kind of date the same person.Alicia: Mm-hmm, over and over again.Zach: Right? Over and over again. It's like, "Yo, like, you kinda got, like, a type." "No, I don't. I don't have a type." "Eh, you kind of have a type." And, like, you keep making the same mistakes with this one that you did with this one, so... and I bet your friend, or you if you look--the person looking in the mirror, you probably haven't, like, paused and reflected, "Okay, well, what is it that I like and don't like about this?" 'Cause there seems to be a pattern here. And a lot of us do that in our careers too. It's like--I have people who, like, they are serial careerists. They have--like, they'll take the same job and quit for the same reasons over and over and over and over. So it's really important that you're thinking through what's working and what isn't working.Alicia: Yeah, I agree. I agree.Zach: So this resume/cover letter refresh. Now, that's important.Alicia: Yes. So, you know, I thought my resume was pretty bomb. Like, I think my--I've always had a pretty solid resume, but you know what? I was putting out feelers, and I was getting--like, I was getting phone interviews, but I wasn't getting past the phone interviews, so I was like, "What's going on here," you know? Like, my resume's dope. One job, like, I matched it exactly. Like, and it was a pretty [inaudible] job, so I was like, "How could you not hire me?" Like, I am the one, you know? But what I did was I actually at some point got a career coach, 'cause one I was kind of not--like, I was ready to apply, but I was still feeling a little bruised from, like, you know, past experiences, worried. So, you know, a lot of the times when you're writing these cover letters, it requires you to reflect on your experiences at these past jobs, and sometimes that's causing you to live in the hurt and the trauma all over again, you know? Just writing the cover letter can be an ordeal 'cause you're just like, "Wow, that job was really terrible," and it's coming out into your cover letter how wishy-washy you were about that job, you know? So what I did was I actually got a career coach to rewrite my cover letter for me, you know? Like, I [hired?] her, and she gave me advice. She rewrote my resume, because one thing she said was, you know, "You're listing out the things you've done, but you're not really giving me that, you know, "I'm a star" kind of thing in your resume. You're mostly like, "I did this, I did this," but you're not really telling me "I accomplished this" or, like, "I'm the winner," or, like, "I'm the best 'cause of X, Y, and Z." It wasn't shining, and my cover letter was much of the same, more just listing things that I did but not really, like, spelling out why I stand out, you know? And she was teling me that, you know, I think that comes from a place of you trying to be over-humble, and you're trying to, you know, downplay yourself a little bit because you're bruised. And so, like, getting her to refresh my resume really--honestly, the results were instant in terms of call-backs, in terms of moving on to the next level, in terms of even just changing my interview style, 'cause I realized, yeah, you know, I was kind of--like, I felt like, "Okay, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am," because, like, I had been laid off before, but I was like, "No, I am as good as I think I am, and that was just an isolated incident," you know? And it's really just about your attitude, but sometimes you just need someone else to step in and do that work for you because it's too painful to do it yourself.Zach: Man, I just--I 100% agree. I think the other thing I'd like to add to the idea of a resume/cover letter refresh is a LinkedIn refresh, right? So, you know, LinkedIn is like the--I mean, LinkedIn first of all, as--I'm gonna put my futurist hat on real fast. So as millennials and Gen Z get more into the workforce and they start engaging LinkedIn, it's gonna become--and it has already, if you've noticed, become way more social and, like, almost kind of, like, Facebook in certain ways, good and bad, the point being that it's gonna become an indelible part of your identity, professional and personal. I mean, even if you Google someone's name, their LinkedIn pops up. Their LinkedIn pops up more than their Facebook does, and so, you know, make sure that you have a professional and accurate depiction of who you are and what you want to present on LinkedIn is huge too, because that can have instant results as well. I've seen certain companies--if your LinkedIn isn't popping it's kind of like, "Eh, I don't really know." Like, that can be the difference maker, to your point, between, like, a phone interview and, you know, an actual in-person--Alicia: Yeah, 'cause let's face it, everybody looks everybody up nowadays. As soon as I hear your name I'm looking you up, you know? "What can I find?" [laughs] So either--if you have a generic name you might be safe, but if you don't you better have that LinkedIn popping. And, you know, just real quick on that, you know, make sure your picture is great, or--you know, it doesn't have to be a professional head shot, but it shouldn't be, like, a selfie. It shouldn't be inappropriate. It should look like how you would probably come for an interview.Zach: It really should though. And I'ma say this, at this point--so again, a lot of this speaks to financial privilege and access. Everyone can't afford, like, a professional head shot. At the same time, these cell phones... really?Alicia: Right? [laughs] If you have an iPhone X, just go against a white wall and take that picture.Zach: Take that picture. Get a nice outfit, you know what I'm saying? Get some drip. Okay, side-note, 'cause we're in 2019, and Ade and I, we would insert slang in 2018, but we did not always give context to the slang, and I have--Alicia: Explanatory comma.Zach: Absolutely. And we have aspiring allies and non-black and brown folks who listen to the show, and people will hit me up and be like, "Hey, what does "the bag" mean?" And I'm like, "Oh, the bag is, like, the money and the wealth or the opportunity." Anyway, so drip--for everyone who's listening who doesn't know--so drip is your fit, right? So drip is not to be confused with sauce, which is more influence and swag. One can have swag and sauce but not have drip, and one can have drip but not have swag. So with all that being said, you'll be dripped out, right, in the picture. White background, iPhone X. It'll be great. Now--Alicia: As a friend of mine said, "Drip or drown."Zach: [laughs] Oh, that's funny to me. Yes, drip--Alicia: I think that's my favorite thing I've heard all year. [laughs]Zach: Drip or drown. You better--you're gonna have to drip or drown. That might be the subtitle for this little B-Side, Drip or Drown. That might be the hashtag, #DripOrDrown. And then the last thing, don't let desperation lead you to another job that won't be a good fit. That's real.Alicia: I think that's important, because you know what? I get it. Your bills are coming down. You feel like you need to get a new job ASAP. You really need to take--like I said, just make sure you're making the right decision for you. The money could look good, but, like, if it's something that's gonna make you be working 20 hours a day, and you're not the type of person that likes to work 20 hours a day--if it's something where you're gonna be working from home a lot or you're gonna be traveling, you need to make sure it's a good fit, else you're gonna end up quitting or they're gonna end up letting you go again, you know? Like, you really want to make sure that 1. this next move--a lot of times what people do is they'll start applying to any job. It's not even in their field, you know? But it's like, "Okay, well, I think I can do that." That's when you're getting desperate, and people can tell, you know? You really want to stick to what you want to do, 'cause, you know, you might be at that job for a long time, and if you want to be--Zach: You never know.Alicia: Exactly. If you want to be in consulting but you're taking a job over at hospitality, you imght end up staying there for a year, and now you have a year of something outside of your field on your resume, and you're gonna have to work to explain, you know, how it lines up, 'cause--what I always think is funny is, you know, people are very narrow-minded when they look at your resume, and they're really only looking at your last thing, and you have to do so much explaining. Like, I had a whole major in health care. All of my jobs were in health care except for one, and people only focus on the one that wasn't. And I was like, "I was only there for 3 months," you know? And it's so crazy how things like that--so that's what I'm saying. Being intentional about, you know, your next move, even if it means passing up, like, a bunch of other, you know, could be easy wins, you really want to make sure your next one is gonna move along in your career path and not just pay the bills.Zach: No, I super agree with that. You know, I kind of make--see, now, this is your fault, Alicia, 'cause you brought up relationships, 'cause now I'm thinking about all these relationship jokes. But it's kind of, like, you know, when you--you might have a breakup, but it's cold outside. Like, it's cuddle season, and so, you know, it's like, "Man, I gotta find somebody."Alicia: Oh, no. Yeah, don't get a warm body job.Zach: [laughs] Yo. Don't get anybody. Don't get a rebound joke is my point. Like, you've gotta, you know, find somebody that is going to put a ring on it or that you will put a ring on. I don't know. You know, everybody's proposing to everybody. It's no problem, no judgment, but the point is figure out what is gonna really be stable for you, 'cause--this is two things. First of all, people very much so underestimate time, and underestimate it in terms of how fast it can go by, and the fact that you can't take it back. So to your point earlier, you said about a year in hospitality. Like, you can look up, and you're gonna have--there are people who are like, "I got this job 5 years ago 'cause I just wanted something 'cause I got laid off and I was just trying to find something," and you look up and it's like, okay, this is your job now, and you don't like it, or you've been doing this thing for a year and a half, 6 months to a year, and then you try to interview somebody--you try to interview for what you really want, and people are like, "Okay, well, why were you doing this?" Like, what are you going to say? And not to say that you're stuck. I mean, it happens, but it's gonna take a little bit more work in how you craft your story and convince interviewers that, "Okay, no, I'm really actually interested in this." Now, I would think that folks with a modicum of empathy and logic would recognize that life happens and that we don't always find--land in the jobs that we want, but often times, like you said--like, it's weird. Like, people put on these weird blinders during interviews and don't always think about context and how just things shift and change and everyone isn't the same, but anyway, this has been great, this has been great. Alicia, what else do we have? Before we go--you go ahead.Alicia: Before I go, I just want to ask--the last question was, you know, if you're an interview and it comes up "Why did you leave your last job?" And it's not exactly an easy answer, that's something you want to practice ahead of time, 'cause that's always gonna come up, you know? You know, one of the things I said when I was laid off was, you know, "My company was going in a different direction. We were shifting from the work that I was doing to a different sector, and that's not something I wanted to do, so, you know, we agreed it wasn't a fit and I left." And another job, the one that I was there for 3 months, I told them, you know, it was a temp job, 'cause basically [inaudible]. It just didn't transfer over into full-time, you know? So don't lie, but have some sort of, you know, palatable truth into your interviews, and practice your answers so that you're not coming off nervous or, you know, it feels like there's something shady going on there. I think that's really important, but I do want to stress that most places, at least in New York--you know, your employer--your past employer shouldn't tell your next employer that you were fired, because that would mess up your chances of getting a new job. I think there's some legality to that.Zach: No, that's illegal.Alicia: Yeah. It is, right?Zach: It's illegal, yeah.Alicia: Exactly. So I want you to have that comfort in knowing that, you know, you kind of are getting a fresh slate as long as, you know, you kind of know how you're gonna work it. Don't feel like it's gonna be, like, a scarlet letter that follows you for the rest of your life.Zach: No, that's super true, and it's interesting because you really gotta figure out ways to politicize--not politicize, but politic that answer. So for me, you know, I was at a major retailer for, like, less than a year, and so even now--I'm 7 years into my career, and people will say, "Okay, well, you know, why were you here?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, that really gave me the--" Like, my answer now is "That really helped me baseline some HR knowledge and best practices. However, I realized that the scope of that retailing context was not conducive for my professional development, and so I ended up finding X, Y, and Z," and I just kind of transition. And I think it's also important, now that we're talking about just how you interview and walk through your career, that you have, like, a story and a overarching narrative that you're speaking to. So if you talk about it from that perspective, then you're kind of--you're talking about these jobs as just points in your journey and not necessarily "I was this, I was this, I was that." It's--for me as an example, I'll say something like, "My name is Zachary Nunn. I'm very passionate about people." And so you'll see in my career, as you look at my resume, all of the roles that I have involve people, and then from there I just kind of walk through the story of "I was here, then I was in oil and gas, then I was in pharmaceuticals. Now I'm in consulting," and it makes sense, as opposed to, like I said, having, like, a really segmented story, 'cause that's how people like to--that's an older way of thinking, but just remember we're transitioning now into a much more fluid workforce, and it's okay to be in different places and have different experiences, but--Alicia, to your point, I 100% agree that you have to have some practice and verbiage behind how you're gonna spin that.Alicia: Yep.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been dope, and like I said, this is the first one of its kind. This has been pretty fun for me. Have you had a good time?Alicia: I had a great time.Zach: Okay. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about Cubicles and Curls?Alicia: Okay. So you can learn more about Cubicles and Curls on our blog, CubiclesAndCurls.com, or you can follow us on Instagram @CubiclesAndCurls. Sometimes I'm on Twitter, and that's just @CubiclesCurls, but, you know, Instagram is definitely the place where you'll usually find me.Zach: Aye. Awesome. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com or living-corporate.co or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org.Alicia: Ooh.Zach: I know. Yeah, that's right, Alicia. We got 'em all. We don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia owns livingcorporate.com.Alicia: Hm.Zach: I know, right? It's crazy. It's crazy. Anyway, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Alicia Davis, founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls. Peace.Alicia: Peace. 

On the fourth installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield discusses what constitutes an effective elevator pitch and shares his advice on how best to come up with your own.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, and Twitter!Connect with us on our website!TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's happening, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all a weekly career tip. So today, let's discuss our elevator pitches. Most of us have heard of what an elevator pitch is, but for those who aren't aware, elevator pitches are short, concise statements that explain who you are and what you do. It's called an elevator pitch because apparently you're supposed to imagine that you get into an elevator with another person, and they ask you what you do, and then you only have that brief moment in the elevator to give them a meaningful response. Now, I don't know about you, but I very rarely talk to anyone in elevators, let alone strangers, but let's flow with it. While most of us may have an elevator pitch, I'm here to tell you that we need to rethink the way that we do them. We've been taught to lead our elevator pitch with process rather than leading with results. When we do that, we leave the other person wanting to know "What's in it for me?" So let's listen to one of my old elevator pitches as an example. I used to lead with "I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development by combining my client's personal brand with their career field through strategic coaching and the development of resumes, cover letters, and LinkedIn profiles marked by their consistency, infusion of key words, and unique formatting that helps my client stand out. Are you looking for help in elevating your career?" While it sounds good, it doesn't lead with results. It doesn't immediately tell the person what's in it for them, and it puts the other person on the spot. In order for us to make faster and more valuable connections, we need to talk about how we create wins for our companies or clients and provide those within the first 60 seconds. By doing this, we don't make the person guess what's in it for them. We give them examples of what could be in it for them. So let's replace the process in my first elevator pitch with some results and see how it transforms. "I'm the head career coach and resume writer at Layfield Resume Consulting. As a result of the coaching, resumes, and cover letters and LinkedIn profiles I provide my clients, they not only landed roles in Fortune 500 companies, but they're better equipped to position themselves as experts and become their own biggest advocate in their careers. I'm looking for individuals who are ready to level up their careers. Can you think of anyone who needs some help?" Which one do you think is better? Reach out and let me know. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check out us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Marty Rodgers of Accenture stops by the show to discuss the concept of lifting as you climb. He also tells us his career journey, from the beginning all the way to his current job at Accenture, and talks about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. Check out Marty on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Look, I got a question for y'all. I'm kind of talking to--I'm talking to us right now, recognizing that we have allies listening in, we have various types and hues of melanin who check out the podcast, but I'm kind of talking to us right now. Have y'all heard of the phrase "all skinfolk ain't kinfolk?" Have you ever heard of that phrase? Okay, so if you haven't heard of that phrase--this is education for everybody now, so shout out to everybody who listens and checks in with the podcast, but the idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk means that just because someone looks like you doesn't mean that they're actually out--looking out for you, right? And the whole idea of all skinfolk not being kinfolk is really illustrated and articulated well in corporate America. You know, for me, I think because I am one of the few if--I mean, arguably the only person in my family really actively in corporate America doing what I'm doing, coming into these spaces, and I see other folks who look like me. Initially, early in my career, I would run up on 'em and be like, "Oh, what's going on, man? Da-da-da-da-da. What's going on, brother?" And they'd hit me with, "I'm not your brother. I'm not your pal, buddy. Go find something else to do," right? Like, they hit you, and you'll be like, "Whoa, what is this?" All skinfolk not kinfolk, and so as I had those experiences and disappointments in my professional journey, finding folks who were actually kinfolk became all the more satisfying, right? And so I'm really excited because even though this Black History Month has been trash, with Jussie and Gucci and whoever else making blackface clothes and folks just wiling in general, people having actual--putting on blackface in 2019 or acting as if the '80s was, you know, 89 years ago. This episode is really powerful for me, man. And yeah, Ade isn't here this week. She'll be back next week. So I'm kind of sad, but this is a silver lining, because I got to actually have a conversation with someone who really epitomizes the concept of lifting as you climb. This man, his name is Marty Rodgers. Marty Rodgers is a managing director out of the D.C. offer at a firm called Accenture. Great man. You're gonna hear about his profile, hear about his story, and so I'm really excited for y'all to check this out, okay? So don't go anywhere. The next thing you're gonna hear is us getting into this interview with Marty Rodgers. Now, look, the computer crashed and we had to redo the interview, but I want y'all to know--and I say it in the conversation--he did actually show us mad love at the top of the interview about Living Corporate. He actually checked out the platform and stuff. He's actually a fan. Shout-out to you, Marty Rodgers, and shout-out to all the folks listening. I want y'all to check this out. Talk to y'all soon. Zach: So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Marty: Sure, absolutely, Zach. So in terms of my background, I've always wanted my career to go back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. I very much believe that all three sectors would be required to come together, to work together, to understand each other, to understand the respective, you know, why each sector exists, what their purpose is, how they're incorporated, what their incentives are, and then all three would have to figure out a way to work together on the greatest issues and challenges of our time. So whether that's the environment or civil rights or education or health care, we've got to find a way to get all three of these sectors to come together to tackle those great challenges. And so when I was coming out of undergrad--I went to the University of Notre Dame, and as I was getting ready to graduate, a guy named Dr. Cliff Wharton became the first African-American CEO of a Fortune 500 company. He became the CEO of TIAA-CREF, and Dr. Wharton had a distinguished career at the UN and also in non-profits before assuming that position, and also as an educator as well, and so he kind of embodied kind of what I wanted my career to be, and so that's very much what I set about the course of doing. So my first row and assignment I started working with Aetna Life and Casualty. I was doing economic research and economic portfolio analysis for a big real estate investment--holdings that the insurance company had. That was really awesome and great, because it happened at a time and a moment in our--in our country when the SNL crisis was happening and properties were getting dumped and affecting our portfolios, and so I'd have to do lots and lots of research on the impact of those--of what government was doing and its impact on the private sector, and so I did that for a while, and I had an opportunity to go to work for one of my mentors in the non-profit space, a woman by the name of Dr. Marian Wright Edelman. She was the president and founder of the Children's Defense Fund, and I originally started and worked for her as her--on her staff as her assistant. That was an awesome experience for me. I got to work directly with her, learn from her, and here was a person that had and is still changing the country. She was the first black woman lawyer in the state of Mississippi and had worked to help create Head Start and a whole variety of other programs for children. That was a great experience. It was the first time I was working really on helping her launch a race-specific campaign for African-American kids called the Black Community Crusade for Children, and we launched that in a whole series of freedom schools all across the country. And then I left there--I kind of had the advocacy bug at that point and went to Capitol Hill. In fact, that was another great experience where I got to work for another mentor of mine, somebody who I'd always looked up to and respected. I went to work for a guy, senator Harris Wofford, who--he's a white guy who had gone to Howard and became one of if not the first graduate of Howard Law School. He went on to work with Dr. King. He went to work with Robert F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. He headed up civil rights in the Kennedy administration and [inaudible] the Peace Corps and was the college president of a couple universities, and so, like Cliff Wharton, he was somebody who I had looked up to and wanted to be more like, and so it was a great opportunity to go work for him and with him. He was very passionate, having co-founded the Peace Corps, about the idea of bringing the Peace Corps home to serve American families and American communities, and so that's very much [what we did together?] was--we worked together. I was in charge, as his staff person, of working on the Americorp legislation and creating a program called Americorp to allow young people a chance to make a difference through full-time national community service efforts, and then we also worked together to create in turn--since he was a friend and an adviser to Dr. King, we worked with congressman Louis to turn that holiday into a national day of service, and so that was my time on the Hill, learning, you know, how does legislation work, how does politics work? How do you get things done on the Hill? And then after that, after spending, you know, almost 5 years trying to convince people about the importance of service and giving back and making a difference, I thought it was quite hypocritical that I hadn't served myself, and so I went and I did a stint serving Native-American kids out in New Mexico and then went to grad school, and then it was after grad school that I joined Accenture, and I've been at Accenture for 21 years, and the great thing about Accenture is it's allowed me to continue to do those things that I was passionate about, and that is, again, moving back and forth between for-profit, non-profit, and government. So I started my career at Accenture in the for-profit space, working in our financial services group. I moved over and joined our government practice, then I started our non-profit practice and launched that literally 10 years ago, almost to the month, and then after that I've now moved into our health and public service group, which is a little bit of a combination of both.Zach: So first of all, that's amazing, all of the things that you shared. Of course there's a clear pattern of service and partnership, and I also, think, Marty, what's really interesting about when you share your story and just your introduction, a lot of us, we have a perspective on one of those three spaces, if it's, like, the legislative space or the non-profit space or the for-profit space, but--and I'm certain that you've heard this many times before. I think your perspective in having such dynamic and deep experiences in each of those spaces gives you a unique perspective, especially when it comes to effectively actualizing change and supporting and lifting as you climb. And so as you know, today we're talking about mentorship versus sponsorship. And, you know, before we started recording the call, and we didn't get--we didn't get this because the computer crashed, but, you know, you said a lot of great things about the podcast, so thank you for that. But everywhere I go--so when I joined--when I started with Accenture, and I've been to some other firms, but everyone has either heard of you or they've worked with you or they aspire to work with you, and so I'm excited to talk to you about this topic, because when your name comes up, often times, especially within the black consultative community, there's a desire for you to be a mentor to them or a sponsor for them, and so I'm curious, could you explain a bit in your mind about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship?Marty: Sure, absolutely. And there really are--it's critical to know the difference between the two and to understand the difference between the two, especially as you're navigating your career. So as I think about mentorship versus sponsorship--and they're both important, but again they're both very different--I think it's important to kind of realize that at different points of your journey you're gonna need mentors, and at different parts of your journey you're gonna need sponsors, and in some cases they can go back and forth. You know, you can have a mentor that can be a sponsor and a sponsor that eventually becomes a mentor, but they are fundamentally different, and if I can take a second just to kind of delineate how I think about that. Let me go through that. So first--and again, just for you and the audience, Zach, it's just I think helpful to think of it just really quickly in a couple of kind of compare and contrasts. So first, mentorship is someone who speaks with you, and sponsorship is someone who speaks about you and for you. Mentors advise. Sponsors advocate. Mentors support. Sponsors steer. Mentors are folks that can help you think about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that can include work, but it doesn't have to exclusively be about work, whereas sponsors talk about career and work, right? Like, that's the purpose of a sponsor. Mentors help you translate kind of the unwritten rules, whereas sponsors are the rules. Mentors have mentees. Sponsors have employees. Mentors talk about paths. Sponsors talk about trails. And then a couple other last ones as I was kind of quickly thinking through this, mentors are someone you look up to, right? And they're folks you want to be like. So for me it was senator Wofford, it was Marian Wright Edelman, it was Johnneta Cole. It's Cliff Wharton. It's all of those folks, you know, that have shaped who I am and who I want to become and who I want to be like and who I look up to, aspire to be like. Sponsors, that's not a requirement, right? But a requirement of sponsorship is power, right? So my mentors have been my heroes and my sheroes. Sponsors don't have to live up to that high of a status. And then lastly, as I described in the beginning, mentors can be sponsors and vice versa. So that's sort of, like, how I quickly kind of think through the compare and the contrast of all of those.Zach: No, absolutely. You know, I'm curious, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions around mentorship? So a lot of times--I rarely ever in conversation, when we have our conversations about our careers and career management with my colleagues and even folks that are non-managers and things of that nature, do I hear people say, "Man, I really want him to be my sponsor." Like, most times we're like, "I need somebody to mentor me." What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions when it comes to black and brown professionals? Or just professionals in general of course, but what you think when you say the word "mentorship" and the expectations. What do you think are some of the largest misconceptions around that?Marty: Well, especially for mentorship, right? Well, let me just actually start with both. So both mentorship and sponsorship are two-way streets, and I think a popular misconception is, you know, it's kind of a one-way relationship, but both--the key thing is that it IS a relationship, right? And there are costs and risks and investments of time, of capital, of attention, on both sides, and both sponsorship and mentorship require kind of nurturing care and feeding, and you can't have a mentorship or a sponsorship relationship where all of the value is going in one direction. It's got to be--it's got to be both ways, and so that for me is the biggest misconception. Like, there's this perception that, "Hey," you know, "I'm gonna get something from my mentor," versus, you know, what are you gonna give your mentor? Or "Hey, I'm gonna get something from this sponsor," versus what are you gonna give your sponsor? I talked earlier about, you know--one of the things I like to say is, you know, mentors can help guide you on a path, right, and talk about paths. You know, like--and again, like, that whole notion of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your path is a bigger thing than just your career and just your--you know, your work and your job, and a path is--it's something that you're cutting yourself. It's your way of moving forward, and a mentor can talk to you about the ups and downs of that journey and how that happens. A sponsor is really about the trail, right? And when you talk about trails, you're following after someone that's already blazed that trail. You're going--you know, with a sponsor you're sort of the protege. You're the person that they're investing in, that they're expecting something from, that you're gonna be a reflection on them. And again, that's the notion that--for a sponsor, you're an employee, right? And you're somebody that they are investing in 'cause you're gonna do something for them and for the firm, and it's a--it's a transaction. And again, that's not--that's not the same type of relationship that you would have necessarily with a mentor, where a mentor is more somebody you're gonna--you're gonna want to be like and look up to.Zach: That's just so perfect, man. And first of all, Marty, it's 4:00, so are we okay to go for another 10 to 15 minutes?Marty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good. We're good.Zach: Thank you so much. So let me ask you this. What was a moment for you--'cause you talk a lot, again, when you kind of talked through your journey just before grad school and before joining Accenture, you mentioned your mentors a lot and the multiple mentors that you've had. Did you ever have a moment where the difference between mentorship and sponsorship impacted your early career?Marty: Yeah. I mean, I think the story, Zach, that really kind of brings home the difference between mentorship and sponsorship would actually be when I first was made a partner--and maybe we will come back to that at the end, right? But when I was made a partner--now we call them managing directors--you know, I was sort of, to be blunt, kind of clueless. I was potentially--there's far too many of us, as black and brown folks, that--you know, my attitude was not what it should be, and what I mean by that is I was of the mindset of, you know, "Hey, I'm doing what I need to do. They should make me a managing director or a partner, and if they don't, you know, it's not why I get up in the morning, so, you know, their loss," right? Somebody, one of the folks that I was reporting to who, you know, now I would call more of a mentor, said, "You know what? That's probably not how you want to think about it, and if you want to accomplish a lot of the things you want to accomplish for other people, for other causes, for other things you say you believe in, then I need you to care about making it to partner, to managing director." When I started on that journey, I had no clue, you know, what was the process was. I was sort of, to be blunt, almost disinterested in the process. I just kind of figured--again, it would happen if it happened. When I was first up for managing director, for partner, I got what we call the paperwork without even knowing that I was up that particular year. I filled out the paperwork. Not even--you know, kind of rushed. Didn't even really think much about it, and went through the process, if you will, and Zach, the crazy thing was I was brought into meet with one of our executives, who told me that particular year I was not going to make managing director, that I was--hey, I had a good run. Glad I was part of the process, but I wasn't going to make it. And hey, you know, it was one of those things where I was like, "Okay," you know? "No big thing." I wasn't--I didn't even know this process existed. I wasn't sure of the process. I wasn't gonna lose sleep about it, right? 2 weeks later I was called back into that same person's office and was told, "Hey, guess what? You actually are gonna make it." And the difference between that and two weeks later was a sponsor had got the list, didn't see my name on it, and had decided, "Hey, nice list, but it's missing somebody," and that's the difference between a mentor and a sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's just so powerful, because I've--you know, from mentors that I've spoken with about--the higher that you climb on these ladders and levels of leadership, you know, the more of that type of support you're going to need, right? And that there needs to be more and more consensus on who makes that list. So that's a powerful example. Marty: Absolutely, and in this particular case, right, and this is something more and more corporations are wrestling with, dealing with, and trying, and we do it formally here at Accenture, but this was a person who had been named as my sponsor that I didn't know that they were my sponsor. So they had--they had been kind of assigned to be my sponsor, and I didn't know until much later that they had been formally assigned to be my sponsor.Zach: Wow. And that's also particularly amazing, and I would imagine humbling for you, Marty, in that, to your point, you weren't even super invested in the process at the time, right? Like, your attitude was not one of, you know, "I need to get this." You know? And so for that to be the case, that's just--that's incredible, but I think it also speaks to your earlier piece when you were talking about people being invested in you that sometimes--I know for me, at least in my career, there have been people who have been more invested in me, in me getting to a certain place [that I was?] at a time because they had the insight and wisdom to know what me getting there meant, and that's invaluable.Marty: And that's the key thing for a sponsor, right? A sponsor has to decide, "Hey, I'm going to give some of my capital to you, and the reason I'm going to give you that capital, the reason I'm going to invest in you, the reason I'm going to sponsor you, is because you in turn are gonna be a good reflection on me," and/or "You're gonna be a good reflection on the firm, and net/net." Normally what that means is, in for-profit firms, you're gonna help us make money.Zach: Yeah. So, you know, in my career, I've seen--the folks who go the furthest, they have sponsors, right? Of course. And frankly I've seen people of color attempt to build sponsor relationships and fall flat a little bit, and so I'm curious, what are some tips that you have for black and brown professionals--particularly millennials, but of course Gen X and baby boomers as well--who are seeking sponsors, and what advice do you have for senior leaders and executives who may not be used to engaging professionals that don't look like them and really establishing those types of relationships?Marty: So [that was?] kind of a two-part question there, Zach. So if I take the first part, right, in terms of the black and brown folks that are seeking sponsors. Well, the first should be, again, to remember that it's a two-way street, and there has to be mutual value shared in both directions, right? And you have to know that when you enter into that relationship, you are a reflection of your sponsor, and that bears with it certain responsibilities, right? And you have to help them, and they have to help you, so to speak. Second thing is you have to ask the question, you know, "Where do I find a sponsor," right? And a sponsor ultimately, going back to those original definitions, right, has to have power. They have to have a seat at the table. They have to be in the room when decisions are being made, and that usually means you've got to look at the org chart, and you've got to look at, you know, who has the budget, and who has the chair, and who has the--you know, the P&L statement to--or, you know, who's filling out the final performance reviews, and how high up in the ladder are they doing that, right? So that would be kind of a second point. Like, you've got to know where to look, and make sure that you're actually identifying folks that are at the table. And then the last part of that is--I always encourage folks to--just like with mentors, you've got to have more than one, and you've got to look for multiple sponsors, because--especially in a lot of organizations nowadays, folks are moving around all of the time at the top, and so you never know, you know, who's gonna shift where when, and the worst-case scenario is, you know, you're planning and investing in a certain sponsor that then moves, and that person no longer has influence where you need them to have influence and you don't have any fallback. So you want to have multiple sponsors in multiple different places, multiple different folks that can speak for you at the table and can be at the table as things move and change. And my last thought in terms of our folks as they seek sponsors, I think it is incumbent upon young professionals in particular to put themselves out there and to realize that that takes courage, but you've got to put yourself out there in terms of being willing to sign up for assignments that you might not--you know, that are stretch assignments that have risk in them. You're gonna have to do a lot of networking and additional relationship development above and beyond kind of your day job. The table stakes, the price of admission, is that you're gonna, you know, perform exceptionally well and what you're doing day in and day out. The last part of that is your sponsor is going to--in terms of that relationship, they're going to be helping you remove obstacles and barriers. They're gonna be helping pick you out for certain assignments, and they're gonna in some cases be helping--they'll help you get that promotion, but you're then responsible, not just for what you were doing before. Now you're responsible for achieving in that new role, and that--you know, that's sort of your next test case, and then that relationship will continue to develop or evolve based on how you perform after that, that kind of first reach-back or reach-in. So it's an ongoing evolution, and that relationship and that dynamic will change over time, and so I think sometimes we get into these relationships and we think they're sort of--they're always the same and they're always sort of static in terms of the relationship. What you'll find is those things actually change, especially as you climb and as your relationship and the proximity sometimes between you and the sponsor, that gap, closes. In terms of the second part of what your question--and sorry for being a little bit long-winded, Zach, but in terms of the second part of your question, senior leaders that are--you know, in terms of how they can best engage with young professionals that don't look like them, I always talk about the opportunity to create space and to have grace. So space and grace, and there's really a need for both, whether it's our employee resource groups or it's our offices or whatever profession you might be in, or if it--or even sometimes those senior leaders themselves, to create the space to come together to get to know folks, to have an opportunity to interact with folks and see who those folks that have that promise, that have that ability to rise, are and can be. And so in the case of folks that don't look like them, that creation of space is really essential, where both a person of color, but also they themselves can feel comfortable in that interaction, and then the grace is, you know, there are gonna be some moments where neither of you feel comfortable, but that's okay. It takes a little bit of courage, but that's part of the price of being a leader at your firm.Zach: Right, right. So I'm a new manager at my company, and I've been recently promoted to manager--Marty: Congratulations, that's awesome.Zach: Thank you, Marty. I appreciate it. It's been about--Marty: You see, man? You just keep climbing. It's awesome. And you keep giving back, which is this podcast. Represent.Zach: Right? Man, you're gonna make me blush on this podcast, man. They're gonna see it through the app, man. Thank you. But it's been about a year, but let me be honest. In my career, often times--and I'm gonna have a bit of an inside conversation outside the house, but often times when I see folks that look like us--and this is has been my experience--they're more--they more often act like referees than they are true avenues of support, and so--and interestingly enough, some of the most prominent mentors that I've had, they've shared that some of the biggest roadblocks have been from them being at a junior level and from people who were at a senior level that do look like them, and so I'm curious, you know, what advice do you have for black and brown leaders to better lift as they climb? And what, if any, roles do non-minority leaders play in helping to support that culture? And I know I'm giving you a lot of, like, two-parter questions, but the reason why I'm asking that second part is because I do believe that there's some type of--there's a reason why we don't always lift as we climb. There's some type of factor in that, and so I'm curious to know if there's a greater cultural influence at play for that. So that's the purpose of the B part of my question.Marty: Yeah. So it's a great question, so let me just kind of unpack it. So first, I love the expression "lift as you climb," which comes from Mary McLeod Bethune, right? And ultimately, right, that's what life should be about. I always talk about the difference between ambition and aspiration, and in our world and our society and in way too many of our corporations we talk about them as though they're the same thing, and they're fundamentally different. Ambition comes from the Latin, and it literally--"Ambit" means to walk around, and what it meant, Zach, was back in the day, you were gonna walk around and you were gonna buy votes. You know, you were gonna, like, literally pay people off to vote for you, and it had a very negative connotation. And aspiration is also from the Latin, but it comes from the Latin word that means to breathe, to give air to, to give life to, to give oxygen to, and we have to be people of aspiration, and we need our firms and our companies to be companies of aspiration, right? And fundamentally what that boils down to--when you're ambitious you believe kind of in a scarcity model. You believe "I've got to hold you down so that I can lift myself up," whereas aspiration is about lifting as you climb. It's about abundance. It's about saying, "Hey, I only get lifted up by those coming after me, and it's my responsibility to reach back, give back and make a difference, to pay it forward." And so--and that I'm only there as a result of others that made my being there possible. And so with that mindset it becomes incumbent upon all of us to, you know--especially as leaders of color--to realize that we're sitting in chairs and we're occupying chairs as a result of others that came before, and sometimes we get in those chairs, and there's this sense of, "Well, hey, I'm the only one, and if there's another then they're gonna have to knock me out or knock me down." And again, that's a scarcity model. That's an ambition model. That's not an aspiration model, and we have to realize that, you know, we have to be about the business of lifting others and making a difference in that way. In terms of advice and roles for non-minority leaders, I think the simplest thing can sometimes be just an expectation of something that simple. You know, sometimes there's this whole idea of, you know, "Well, gee, if I'm here--" You know, when I first started and took on a leadership role at Accenture and was leading several of our accounts here, I very consciously wanted to have the most diverse accounts, right? And I believed if I could create the most diverse accountsand if I could create accounts that were the best accounts at the firm that people would be fighting, you know, against each other trying to get on these accounts, and if I had the best talent, then the rest would take care of itself, and some of that has to be the same spirit and ethos that non-minority leaders would have in terms of creating a culture that rewards people that recognize diversity, that bring in diversity, and say to minority leaders themselves, "You know what? You are diverse, and if you bring in more diversity, that's a good thing. And if you're helping advance other diverse leaders, that's a good thing, and we're gonna reward that." And that's a positive thing. It's not a negative thing. It's not a scarcity model. It's an abundance model.Zach: Marty, this has been a great discussion. Before we go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs? In fact, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but I know that--I know that I have a colleague who--this is from years ago, and you might not remember saying this, but she made mention of the fact that you said something like we as a people--that black people, we're, like--we're the blue note. Do you recall that statement? I wasn't there, but she said you had a statement--Marty: I have lots of statements, but yes.Zach: Man, could you just wax poetic on that please? Because--and I don't--the reason why I ask is because I wasn't there, and she wasn't even able to fully articulate what you said, but her eyes glowed when she said it, and I was like, "Man, when I speak to him--" And this was literally 4 years ago. I said, "When I speak to Marty, I'm gonna ask him to talk about this."Marty: Hm, okay. Well, the concept of the blue note comes from jazz, right? And so there's this idea that--and it's something that, you know, in our firms nowadays, and Accenture is no exception, we talk all the time about the need for innovation, right, and the need for creativity and the need for--you know, as things are going along, there might be a disruption, or there might be something that comes along that creates dramatic change, and so really that's the idea of the blue note in jazz, right? It's the moment of improvisation. It's the moment when you don't know where or how the story's going to--the music and the story is going to unfold, and really that is--you know, whether you read Cornel West or Eric Dyson or others, that's really been our history, right? That's our story, of every time we've been on a journey as a country we have served in the role of the blue note, the improvisation that moves our story forward around the realization of those very first principles that were first embedded in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution. And so, you know, whether it was--you know, our battle, originally as enslaved people or later in terms of the Civil War and fighting for freedom or the battles for reconstruction or through civil rights, or now even today as we move forward with Black Lives Matter and other movements to more fully recognize the process of more fully recognizing our humanity and more fully recognizing our citizenship has been one that has caused the country to confront and to look at itself and its values in the mirror, and we've been that blue note to help the country evolve its definition and its story as we've gone along.Zach: Man, I love that. I love that, and now it's captured on this podcast. Marty, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I'm beyond honored. I appreciate your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Marty: All right. Well, thank you, Zach, very much for having me. It's been an honor to be a part of it, and if I can ever be of help to folks on a journey, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter or otherwise. Happy to be of help.Zach: All right, Marty. Appreciate it. Peace.Marty: Take care. Bye-bye.

On the third installment of Tristan's Tips, our special guest Tristan Layfield discusses a personal expertise of his: career coaching. He also tells us which three questions we should ask ourselves before we pursue a career coach. Check back next Tuesday for another tip!Tristan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanlayfield/Layfield Resume Consulting: https://layfieldresume.com/Layfield Resume social media: IG, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate fam? It's Tristan from Layfield Resume Consulting, and I've teamed up with Living Corporate to bring you all another weekly career tip. So today let's discuss career coaches. The first career coaching firms started back in 1946. Back then and through the '80s, career coaching was largely reserved for CEOs and executives, and career support for workers lower in the ranks typically took the form of apprenticeships. By the time millennials got into the workforce all of that was gutted, and we were left to figure out our careers on our own. Now, fast forward to today, and the times have definitely changed. There are companies now that provide their employees career coaches on day one, not necessarily so they can figure out their next step but so they can make the most of their current step. With job searching becoming increasingly difficult, career coaches like myself have risen to the occasion to try and assist job seekers and navigating them. Now that coaching is on the rise, it's imperative that we have a discussion around who should seek out a coach and why you should be selective about the coach you decide to work with. If you think you need a career coach, you more than likely do, but there are a few questions you need to ask yourself. #1: Do I understand that a career coach won't do all the work for me? #2: Am I ready to put in work to obtain the career I want? And #3: Do I have the budget to work with a coach? If you answered no to any of those questions, odds are you aren't ready for a career coach just yet. Think about a career coach like a basketball coach. They don't play the game, but they help you practice and give you all the tools you need to win. In order for you to take your game to the next level, you have to be zoned in, and you have to be ready to invest in yourself to get there. Most coaches are going to take you through a process that requires Dedication with a capital D. If you aren't ready to execute on your goals, then more than likely you aren't ready for a coach just yet. Also, remember that all coaches do not have the same methods and every coach is not for every person. You should do your research on your coach. Google them, take advantage of any free consultation or exploration calls, and if you want to go further, don't be afraid to ask for a client reference. Believe me, any good coach is vetting you just as much and should encourage you to assess if you all are a fit. After all, you're spending money, and they're spending time, and I'm sure neither one of you want to waste those precious resources. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume, or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

We have the honor of speaking with battle rapper and musician Chilla Jones about his unique career journey, pursuing your dreams, navigating between the full-time and entrepreneurship space, and the difficulty of juggling your passion and your 9-5. Check out Chilla's website, IG, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to another B-Side. Now, look, we talked about B-Sides in season one. This is season two of Living Corporate. For those who don't know, B-Sides are basically random episodes in-between our larger episodes where we just kind of kick it, you know? Sometimes we have conversations with just me and Ade. Sometimes they're, like, kind of extended monologues, just me or Ade. Often times though, most times, they're conversations with, like, special guests, like, one-on-one discussions, and I'ma tell you, this time--this time this one's special for me, okay? Now, y'all might not know, but I'm actually a huge--I love rap in general, right? I love rap, and I love battle rap a lot. Y'all know those air horns y'all hear in the shows, like [imitating them]? That's actually inspired by battle rap, specifically Ultimate Rap Battle League, URL, and the reason why is because battle rap, to me, it combines public speaking, retention, charisma, improvisation, crowd control, all at the same time, right? And clearly y'all can tell I enjoy talking, so it's obviously a clear intersect for me. Anyway, I was always a big follower of it as a kid, but, you know, life goes on. I kind of let it fade. Well, back when I was in college I stumbled upon a battle rapper who really got me back in the game. If you can imagine Jay-Z but as a battle rapper, that's a crude reduction of who and kind of what this style is, okay? So our guest for today's B-Side is Jerome Jones, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Chilla, A.K.A. Bosstown, A.K.A. your favorite writer's favorite writer, Chilla Jones. Chilla Jones is a musician and battle rapper hailing from Boston, Massachusetts, New England. He has released several projects, but you most likely know him from battle rap. He's traveled all across the world. He's making a name for himself as one of the biggest writers to ever engage the arena. Chilla, how's it going, man?Chilla: My guy. What's going on, man? Peace up. What's good? We out here, man.Zach: We out here, man. Look, man--so look, today, man, we're talking about pursuing your dreams, you know, navigating between your full-time and the entrepreneur space. What was it like for you, and like--and you working your 9-5. When did you start really being like, "Look, I need to pursue this battle rap thing. I want to pursue this music thing."? What has it been like to juggle that? What did it look like when you got started? You know, of course we see you now. You're in--you know, you've gone to London, you've been all over the world. Of course all over the U.S., but [inaudible], you know, you've been to parts in Europe. Of course you've been in Canada often. You know, what has that journey been like for you?Chilla: It's huge, bro, and, you know, back in the day--you know, I'd been, you know, doing the 9-5 thing since I was, you know, fresh out of high school, 18 years old, and so, you know, that's kind of always been a part of my adult life, but, you know, as time went on I really devoted more and more of my personal time into music or into battle rap, depending on the era, and so--it's very interesting having to juggle both because--you know, especially nowadays. I have so many opportunities that present themselves that might require me to, you know, as you said, be in Canada or be in London or, you know, I went to Australia recently, which was a really eye-opening experience, you know? I get offers to go everywhere from, you know, Ireland to New Zealand to Amsterdam to--you know, all off the strength of my talent and my ability, so, you know, I never quite thought that I would get to travel the world and, you know, kind of expand my horizons just off the strength of my God-given talent. It's definitely a blessing, but it definitely is a sacrifice, man. You know, it's definitely--when you're thinking of transitioning from that 9-5 to, you know, doing something you love full-time, or even if you're not doing it full-time, if you're deciding to kind of devote a little bit more time to it than the normal person, you're literally having to decide and juggle between, you know, kind of having that steady income or, you know, kind of--kind of diving into something where you might be eating ramen noodles for a week, you know, waiting on your next gig, you know what I'm saying? And so I've kind of--I've kind of balanced both sides of that, and so, you know, luckily I have a job that is very understanding. They're aware of my career and very supportive, so, you know, they give me all of the flexibility that I might need, whether that's--you know, I might only be at work a couple days of the month because I might be, you know, traveling so much during that particular month, you know? And they support me, and they're very supportive in that, and I'm very lucky to kind of that situation to where I can always know that if I don't have any battles or if I don't have any shows or, you know, if I don't have anything on the rap side that's helping to contribute to my income, I have a job that I can--that I can kind of rely on for that, and, you know, when I do have all of these gigs and stuff like that, I'm not--you know, I'm not having to sacrifice the 9-5 that I have, and so I kind of have a really, really good situation worked out for me right now, but it's definitely--you know, I've been in situations where my job wasn't so supportive, and so I've had to make decisions like, "Okay, I can take this offer and go to Canada for 4 days, and I don't have any more paid time off at work, and I know if I can't make these two shifts, then I might not have a job when I get back. So, you know, I've had to make those decisions and kind of try to--try to do what's best for me in the long run, and so you really just gotta believe in yourself at the end of the day. You really just have to believe that you're doing the right thing, and you gotta follow your dreams, man. There's nothing--there's nothing worse than, you know, feeling like you didn't give it your all, and that's always just kind of what I've--what I've always kind of gone by and stood by, is like I would rather, you know, go for my dreams and fail than to stay stuck at a 9-5 and just always wonder "What if?" Like, you never want to wonder--you never want to wonder "What if," you know what I mean? That's my stance.Zach: Yeah, man. Yeah, and it's funny you talk about your job. That was actually another question I had. So, like, what does it look like, right, when you--so you show up--of course for those who don't know, right, like, who haven't seen you do your thing, whatever whatever. You know, you're a black man, and you're a moderately tall person. You're a--I wouldn't say, like, you're a scary, imposing--you're not, like, you know, sloppy like Suge or nothing like that, but, you know, you're a large black man. Like, what does it look like when you articulate to people, "Hey," you know? When you talk to your employer, "Hey, I'm a battle rapper." Like, how do those conversations go, and how does that--you know, you say they're supportive. You know, what does that--what does that look like, just to kind of, like, broach the topic and then talk about your profession?Chilla: Right. I mean, honestly it was--you know, initially it was something that I--that I hid, you know? And I think a lot of us, us battle rappers, do that, you know? I hid my career from my job, and so, you know, at first I would say "Oh, I'm going out of town for this reason," or that reason, and, you know, "I need to be off. I need to leave on Friday," and, you know, "I'll be back Sunday night or Monday morning," and so I'd name this shift or that shift that I'm scheduled for, and, you know, doing that a couple of times, they really--they really don't trip, but as it--as it happens more often and more consistently, I kind of--I kind of just thought in my head, like, you know, "The only way this is going to work and work in my favor is if I'm honest," and so I actually had just got offered a promotion, and, you know, the promotion was kind of to a lofty position, and they--you know, as we were in the office and we were discussing salary and everything like that, you know, I figured that was a really good time to kind of be honest, and so--you know, I told them I was interested in the position and I would love to the job, but I have a career, and this is what I do, and this is what that looks like, and this is what I need from you if you want me to do this position for you. And so, you know, I need flexibility on your end for me to be able to do A, B, and C, and if I can do that, then when I'm here and I'm working I will give you flexibility on D, E, and F, you know what I mean? And so it's definitely a compromise there, and like I said, they are in support of it. They will even watch my battles, and they'll come to work and quote certain things that I've said, and it's so weird because it's such a--you know, the environment that I work in, you would never expect, you know, to have, you know, 40-year old, 50-year old, you know, Caucasian men and women or [inaudible] with all types of different, you know, backgrounds and, you know, all types of different, you know, places that they've grown up in and things that they're interested in. Like, you know, I don't think anybody where I work is even interested in hip hop to be for real, you know what I mean? It's other things like that, but, you know, they take an interest in it because, you know, they see that I'm good at it, that I have a talent, and they see where it takes me and where I go and how long I'm gone and the kind of money I make when I'm not there, and so it's just a--it's just a really, really beautiful situation, and so, you know, it really, really helps to have the support of your higher-ups, because they, you know, are just so understanding, and they allow you to do what you need to do, and they understand that, although it is a priority, you know, it's just a means to an end, you know what I mean? So that was a--that was a big turning point for me in my career, to have their support and to have their kind of--you know, them behind me in terms of me being able to go after what I'm trying to go after.Zach: Well, I would imagine, man, it's also, like, a weight off your back, right? Because it's one less thing you gotta worry about, right? The more transparently you can move while you do--while you pursue your passions, the more energy you're gonna have for your passions, right? So, like, I would imagine you just being able to just kind of be more of yourself and bring more of yourself frankly to work. Not that you're gonna be scheming on your boss, but you can just kind of--you know, you can be yourself and let people know what you're about. When you leave, you say, "Hey, I gotta go." Like you said, you're not having to kind of create stories and excuses and narratives and things of that nature. So, you know, you talked about--you talked about the travel and the doors that battle rap and your really--again, just kind of beyond just battle rap, your music has opened for you. Would you mind talking a little bit about Drop the Mic? I'm not asking you to share any secret sauce or anything like that, but kind of talk to us about how that opportunity happened. And for those who don't know, y'all, Drop the Mic--when y'all see, like, these celebrities and they're, like, rapping against each other, that's a TV show called Drop the Mic, right? And Chilla Jones is involved in that. So yeah, you go ahead, man.Chilla: Yeah. You know, so the opportunity first presented itself through another battler named Rome, and so Rome at one point was one of the contributing head writers on the show, in the very first season, and so, you know, he had a little leverage and a little leeway to kind of be able to--you know, he and the executive producer by the name of Jensen Karp. You know, Jensen was formally a battle rapper in the California, Los Angeles, scene. And so, you know, he is a big battle rap fan. You know, he knows, like, you know, the sources and the [inaudible] and a lot of those people from back in the day, the early [inaudible]. WRCs, [inaudible], in that kind of era. So, you know, it was very important for Jensen to incorporate some of the new age, you know, battle rappers into the show in terms of having them contribute by, you know, either assisting in the writing process or in coaching some of the celebrities to, you know, make sure when they go on stage they sound as good as possible. And so during that very first season, you know, they both reached out to me in regards to helping and contributing on the show, and, you know, obviously my kind of reputation as, you know, the Kingpin or, you know, one of the greatest writers in battle rap, it kind of seems like a no-brainer to have me involved in that process. And so, you know, they reached out to me. I went out to Hollywood. I was able to work with, you know, Wayne Brady, Jake Owen, Boyz II Men, Rascal Flatts. A bunch of different--a bunch of different people who were all really dope, humble, down-to-earth celebrities, and, you know, I got a chance to work with them and, you know, help them construct their lines and teach them the best ways to rap it or flow it over the beat, and man, I've been on every season since, you know what I mean? And so it's a very dope process. I've got a chance to meet and network with a lot of dope people. I love the concept of the show. I think it's a genius show. Salute to Method Man as well, who had a big hand in bringing me on as well. Method co-hosted my battle with Daylyt in 2014. He's been a big fan as well as a mentor ever since. He always keeps in touch and, you know, he also was somebody who cosigned bringing me on the show as well. So it's just been a really humbling experience, man. That's just one of the many things that battle rap has done for me and has allowed me to do, and it's just--it's really humbling, you know? I never thought that battle rap would lead to so many different avenues, you know, that could [inaudible], you know what I mean? It's just--it's really been a humbling and a wonderful thing.Zach: You know, and speaking of that battle, when you hit that blue meth line in that battle against Daylyt, I saw Method's face in the background and I was like, "Oh, I bet they're gonna be cool after this." Like, that was one of my favorite battles also. Yeah, so let's keep it going. So I'm curious, man, and I don't want to get you in trouble, and this is not a battle rap podcast, but you know I'm a battle rap fan. Let me ask you this. If you had to look at--if you look at the battle rap scene today, who are--out of the new guard, right, who out there is in your atmosphere, right? So are you looking at Loso? Twork? A-Ward? Like, who out there this year are you like, "Yo, you gotta face these bars."? Like, who out there is on your list?Chilla: As far as, you know, people I want to see in the near future, A. Ward for sure is in there. I would love to battle Nitty. I would like to battle Loso, but you know what's funny? Me and Loso, as well as me and A. Ward, we're actually al pretty close, you know what I mean? They're both two guys that are humble. They're smart, they're talented, and, you know, I kind of make it a habit when I come across certain people to reach out and just be like, "Yo, if you need something, if there's anything I can do," you know, any advice I can give you. You know, I always extend myself to the new guard to let them know that, you know, I'm here as a support--as a veteran, as a support system. You know, if there's anything you need, like, you know, I'm here for that, and those are two guys that have both definitely taken advantage of that, but the funny thing is I still want to destroy A. Ward, you know what I mean? Like, me and A. Ward are so competitive that, you know, that battle is still gonna happen, and, you know, it's still gonna be an amazing battle, but on the flip side it's--like, I don't know that I can see myself battling Loso, and it's not even that I'm closer with Loso, but me and Loso just have a different type of--a different type of relationship. I'm not saying it could never happen, but I guess I'm just saying that I'm more anxious and eager to battle A-Ward. But A-Ward, Nitty for sure, Ave--I'm really close to Ave too. I think Ave is amazing. Ave is also on my list. I would love to battle him. I think it would be a really good battle.Zach: That'd be a great battle. Now, you skimmed over Twork. Was that on purpose? Are you--Chilla: Those are the names that come to mind. I think Twork's dope, and I would battle Twork as well, but I don't know. Zach: All right, bet. Bet, bet. So, you know, it's interesting because--so to your point about the people that you named, right, I definitely think--so when I look at, like, that four horsemen group--so of course, you know, you and I have had conversations before, like, when you and Saga battled and you was kind of clowning him about the thing, and I was like, "Aye," you know? Whatever whatever, but out of the four horsemen I actually think A. Ward has all of the elements--like, his pen to me is the most aggressive and impressive in terms of the fact that he can do--he kind of does everything really well, right? Like he has the--he always has a crazy scheme in the second round. He starts off with some nice personals. He wraps it up at the end with, like, a Christian gospel presentation at the end, which of course I find is dope. I'm biased in that way. [laughs] And then of course you got Nitty, who I just think--I really think, man, he's up there, man. Like, I think he would--I really think--so A. Ward would be an entertaining battle, you know? Loso would be cool. I think that Nitty, like, honestly, man, would give you, like--I think Nitty would give you your best challenge though, I do.Chilla: Oh, for sure. No, I agree. I think Nitty--right now, you know, my honest opinion is that me, Nitty, and JC are kind of the three best pens.Zach: I agree with that.Chilla: And so, you know, obviously me and JC have already gone to war and so have JC and Nitty, and so yeah. I agree with you 1000%. If we're talking bar for bar, if we're talking pen for pen, yeah, nobody's gonna give me a tougher match than probably Nitty and, you know, maybe Twork, you know what I mean? If that ever happens.Zach: Yeah, if it happens, if he--you know what I'm saying, if he comes ready and all that stuff, you know, all those various elements, I think--I think what's scary about Nitty is I don't think we've--I think he's had a couple of stumbles, but when you talk about consistency, man, like, he's up there. Like, him, when you talk about--let's take, like, a kind of, like, pivot for a second. So when you talk about consistent battle rappers, it's like, what, him--A. Ward's pretty consistent, but him, DNA, Danny Myers. Like, them cats are, like, very, very consistent, man. You ain't gotta really worry about if he's gonna come at you--not even if he's gonna get his bars out. So being that you never have to worry about him getting his bars out, but sometimes you're like, "Eh, these bars are kind of [inaudible]," but then, like, Nitty it's like--not only do you not have to worry about him getting his bars out, them bars gonna be crazy when they come out, right? And so, you know, it's just--I'm really curious, man. I'm trying to see what's going on, you know? Of course we're all--I follow the news and stuff, and I'm hearing about, you know, people that you might be battling, but I'm really excited to see some of 'em, and I think 2019 is gonna be a crazy year. You've been on top for a while, you know? And you talked just a second about, you know, being a mentor. You know, what--and you say, you know, you offer your services and your time. You know, what are things that you wish folks would have helped you with as you kind of got into it? Like, after you whooped Interstate Flames, and after you beat Gatman Jones, and then after you beat M. Ciddy, and then you beat Cash Eatin. And, like, at what point--at what point was it like, "Okay, can somebody help me?" Like, did anyone kind of help pull you aside and kind of pour into you, or did you kind of have to find out things the hard way? Chilla: For the most part, man, I had to find out things the hard way, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't really--being that, you know, A. I was from Boston, and, you know, there was kind of nobody before me from Boston, and so I--you know I didn't have a path to follow. I had to create one, and, you know, there was kind of nobody that I could reach out to or anything like that. So I'll tell you for the most part I had to kind of learn everything, but I can tell you back in those days, you know, there were some people that helped, you know? Mickey Factz was a big mentor for me, you know, in terms of helping me make certain career decisions, and a great person to spar with, and he's a very, very tough critic as far as you let him kind of hear your material. Stuff that you might think is amazing he might hear and be like, "Eh, you can do better," you know what I mean? And so he was a really, really important part of the elevation of my pen and the, you know, versatility that I began to show over time, but I do wish I had more of that on the battle rap side, you know, from somebody who actually battled back then, because at that time Mickey hadn't really jumped in the ring yet. He was still just, you know, an underground artist that everybody kind of knew about and followed the culture, but I didn't have anybody within, you know, as a battle rapper within the culture really take me under their wing or anything like that, and, you know, leading into the DNA battle and even after the DNA battle, I feel like that's something that that would've been the time where I would've needed it the most, you know what I mean? And I kind of didn't have that, and so that's part of the reason why I extend myself, especially to certain people. Like, when I look at Loso I'm like, "Man, you don't--there's nobody else that I know of from Tampa that's, you know, making as much noise as you are as far as battle rap, and so you probably don't have that person." I mean obviously he has John John, 'cause he came up through BullPen. So I know he definitely has some people in his corner, you know, and it's kind of the same thing with A. Ward. He's from Missouri, so obviously there's the Hitmans, the Verbs, but he's also from Kansas City. He's not from St. Louis.Zach: Right, it's different spaces.Chilla: Exactly, way different spaces, and so, you know for a lot of those guys that I know are coming from maybe some towns or some markets where, you know, they're kind of creating a path for their town or their city, I like to kind of extend myself and say, "Yo, if you ever need anything, if you need to run your bars by someone, if you have any career questions about what battles you should take or anything like that, you know, inside and outside of battle rap, man. Just, you know, in life in general, man. Just know that I'm a resource here for you that you can use whenever necessary." And so, you know, at the end of the day I just--I see it every day, and I think we all see it as black men. We see talent go by the wayside a lot of times, whether that's, you know, people falling victim to the streets or jail or whatever the case, and then, you know, even within battle rap there's a lot--there's a lot of people with extreme talent that we see don't live up to their potential.Zach: So look, man. Let's talk about it. You're absolutely right. Then to your point though around just people in your circle, making sure they're holding you accountable and being like, "Hey, you know that bar wasn't really that great." You know, you can kind of tell if you're a fan and you're listening to the--you're watching these battles, like, who had someone who they sparred with who told them the truth, and then who had maybe just a bunch of yes men or they rushed it and wrote it at the last minute? They didn't really have anyone holding them accountable, and I think--you know, I think in any realm, in corporate, creative, music, whatever the space is, you need someone who's gonna kind of keep it 100 with you, otherwise you walk out here talking about that Surf/Twork battle when he said, "Think witch's parking lot - all brooms." I was like, "What does that mean, sir?" Like, what does that--what does that mean? Like, what are you saying, right? You know? And there's plenty of people we can name. This is not a--it's not no disrespect to nobody, but it's just--like, there's value in that mentorship, and to your point, right, as black men, like, it's obvious when you see talent go by the wayside in a variety of spaces for a variety of reasons, and when you--and it hurts because you can see the potential. You're like, "Man, I know you want it. I know you want to do better than this. I know that you don't want to be rapping like this," right? "I know that you don't want to be performing like this. I know that you want to be the best you can be," and what sucks about battle rap is that it's on such a public stage, right? So it's like you can't--you don't have the luxury of failing in moderate privacy. Like, you're failing in front of, like, potentially hundreds of thousands of people online, right? Well, look--go ahead. No, keep going.Chilla: No, I was gonna say it's--you know, that was what I learned with, you know, the DNA battle and, you know, I mean, even though I feel like I won that battle, I feel like it was [inaudible].Zach: It was a--it was a body bag, but yeah. [inaudible].Chilla: Yeah, but there was a lot to be learned, because that was--you know, I went from battling in front of 400-500 people to battling in front of 3,000 people. I went from getting, you know, 200,000-300,000 views on my battles to 700,000-800,000 views. Like, that was a huge step up for me in terms of name and tier and everything like that, and so coming into the--coming into the sport, you know, the DNA battle was maybe my sixth battle ever, and so it's different--it's different when you look at other people, like, say, John John Da Don. John John Da Don had maybe 12 battles on Grind Time before he even walked onto URL, and so he was able to take that experience with him to a new league and kind of dominate, because he had already kind of worked out the flaws in his style. He had already figured out the best way to memorize his bars. He had mastered performing in front of certain groups of people. And so for me, I had to learn in front of the world, and so it was--it was such a big, different--it was such a different environment for me than for a lot of the other people that we look at as stars today, because they had--they had the opportunity to groom themselves in their leagues and have between 10 and 20 battles before they went to URL. I had the two battles that you had talked about earlier on this podcast, which was the Gatman Jones and the Interstate Flamez. Those were the only two battles I had in this format before I stepped foot on the biggest league in the world. So imagine--so, like, imagine LeBron playing two high school games before he gets called up to the NBA, you know what I mean?Zach: It was a crazy jump, man, because you went from--yeah, you did. So you went Gatman, Interstate, and they were crazy body bags, so then--so the buzz got quick, right? Your stock went crazy up, then you went--correct me if I'm wrong. Was it Cash Eatin then M. Ciddy then JC?Chilla: Yeah.Zach: Yeah. So it was Cash Eatin, bodied. M. Ciddy--you know, at the time classic, whatever whatever, then JC of course a certified classic. Then from there--in that room, how big--how many people were in that room with you and JC? Like, 500? Like, how many people?Chilla: Me and JC was probably like 250, 300. It was a really small room, intimate space.Zach: Small room, yeah.Chilla: Small room, intimate space, but the energy in that room, man, I'll never forget it. Such an amazing energy.Zach: Crazy energy in that room. So you go from a small--and again, a small room battle where everybody's gonna feel the bars more, whatever whatever, to this, like--and admittedly, 'cause I came from--when I was watching battle rap as a kid, Chilla, I was watching it, like, with--you know, of course everybody, every millennial who watches battle rap knows the Serius Jones/Murda Mook battle. So, like, that was the kind of vibe I was used to, [Jin's battles?]. Like, those were the types of the spaces, and so I was even kind of taken aback when I was watching you rap, and I was like, "Dang, okay. This is crazy. This stage is really big." Like, "This is completely different." You got Kevin Durant in the background. You got a huge--it's like an auditorium, right? It's a theater. And so yeah, it's crazy, man. It was a crazy jump, man, but it's interesting, and, you know, I'm trying to take my fanboy hat off, 'cause part of me is like--1. it's great that you chose to learn and grow from that. I've seen--I could see another angle of--and I've seen this in other battle rappers that we don't have to namedrop, right?--where it's like you can be stubborn and be like, "Nah, I was just ahead of my time. Y'all weren't ready at the time. If I was to do that now it would be crazy, and I'm not gonna change," right? But you made a decision to start doing other things, right, what you kind of highlighted in that Prep battle when you talked about you got--you got angles, personals, you know, you have all these different weapons now, and you grew from that. Man, this has been a great conversation. I'm curious, you know, you have a ton of bars, right? Like, you have a ton of schemes, battles, people that you've battled. You know, if you had to say, like, one of your favorite punches, your favorite schemes, you know, what--do you have one that you kind of, like, think about often? If so, would you mind kind of, like, breaking it down?Chilla: Let me think. I mean, recent memory... there's a couple. So there's one in my battle versus Iron Solomon, and it's in the first round, and it's a Celtics scheme. And so it says something--it's something along the lines of--so first I'll do the scheme, and then I'll break it down. So it goes, "My fans strong in the building, of course I'ma sell tics so save the hatin'. You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." Right, and so it actually starts before that, but I'll get into that in a second. And so how I introduce the scheme is I say something like, "I'm hands on. You came for God, and hey, word. I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope his punches don't land wrong. My fans strong in the building." So you came for "God, and hey, word," so that's Gordon Hayward. "I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope your punches don't land wrong." So that's about his injury last year when he--you know, he broke a leg when he jumped and he landed wrong. And so then it goes into "My fans strong in this building. Of course I'ma sell tics, so save the hatin'." Sell tics, Celtics. "You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement." So that's "you think it's Rozier," Terry Rozier, on this side. "Well, be Smart," Marcus Smart, before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Jaylen Brown. Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Marcus Morris. "Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'." So back then we had a backup point guard named Shane Larkin. "That Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." So it's like, Gordon Hayward, Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Morris, Shane Larkin, Jayson Tatum. So it's, like, seven or eight Celtics players in that Celtics scheme. So for personal reasons, battling a legend like Iron Solomon in Boston--and I don't get very many battles in Boston nowadays--to be able to do a Boston Celtics scheme while they were in the middle of a crazy playoff run without Kyrie Irving was really, really dope to me. The other scheme that comes to mind [inaudible] that I really like was a scheme I did versus Gjonaj. It was the Super Mario scheme.Zach: Oh, yes, yes.Chilla: Let me see if I remember this one off the top of my head. I wish I could also remember what he said, because he had a line about Super Mario in his third round, but I kind of rebuttaled it with lines of Super Mario 3. "I'm making moves behind the scenes. Who's whistleblowing?" Zach: Oh, I remember that, yeah.Chilla: Yeah, which if you're a Mario fan that's dope. Super Mario 3, you can run behind the level, behind the background, and when you blow the whistle you warp to a different--to a different world. And so in response I said, "I needed talks like this when I got in the game. This is a lot like--" I said, "You're right, this is a lot like Super Mario. I know, I first thought it was strange, but they battle rap 'cause a good job is not in their range, and they don't want to jump up to hit the block for change. Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they the jealous type. The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she let you pipe. Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life."Zach: Oh, my God.Chilla: "But the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stay with you, but when you get bigger, they'll do anything to belittle you. But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So the whole scheme is--the whole scheme is, like, all Mario'd out. So "Jump up and hit the block for some change." Obviously if you've played Mario, you jump up, you hit the blocks, the coins come out. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet." So there are bullets in Mario that have faces on them that fly at you. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe," so Princess Peach, and obviously in Mario you go down the pipes into the different levels and warp zones and things like that. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night." So Boo is the name of the ghost that if you run toward it it stays still, and if you turn your back to it it flies towards you to get you. So "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." So 1-up is the green mushroom that gives you an extra life. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." So when you're an up-and-comer and you're learning and developing, everybody's on your team, but then also in the Mario sense, when you get a mushroom you grow. "When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you, but when you get bigger they'd do anything to belittle you." So whether it's on Mario when you get hit with a shell or a fireball or a plant or something happens, you get smaller. They'd do anything to belittle you. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." When you get the star, nothing can kill you. So the whole--that whole scheme is--yeah, it's just, like, 8, 12 bars of just Mario references, but also relating it to him. Kind of funny it ties into what we were talking about earlier, but it's like I'm almost mentoring him. I'm telling him--you know, the whole thing is me saying, you know, "We battle rap because some of us can't get a good job for whatever reason," so we battle rap because we don't want to go to the streets. We don't want to jump up and hit the block for some change. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they're the jealous type." People will try to kill you for your fame. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe." Just because she sees you're famous and has sex with you doesn't mean she's really down for you. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." She's gonna do you dirty because in the end, if you guys end up breaking up, she wants to feel like she has something on you. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." They love you as an up-and-comer. "When you get bigger, they'd do anything to belittle you." When you hit a certain tier and you stop being the underdog, all fans want to do is see you lose. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So whether or not you're winning or losing battles, if you have that charisma, if you have that star power, you'll continue to grow and [inaudible]. So I was, like, totally mentoring him, but at the same time breaking him down using Mario references. So that's probably one of my favorite schemes ever, but that's from the battle I did with Gjonaj. I want to say this was 2017--Zach: Was it 2016?Chilla: I don't know if it was 2016 or 2017. I want to say it was 2017 to be honest, but--Zach: Oh, right. It just hit 2019. You're right. It was 2017, man. Yeah.Chilla: It was 2017, yeah. So it'll be 2 years in April that that battle came out--that that battle happened, I'm sorry. But yeah, that's easily--especially because he had the Mario line in the third round and this kind of came after it. Easily one of my favorite schemes that I've ever done. Like, the way it's put together, I just think it's so good. So good.Zach: Nah, man. It was phenomenal. I remember that battle, and it was--so my homeboy E. Mike--I'm actually gonna drop his name--we were watching it at his apartment, and man, he heard that, and he had--I think he had his phone, and he threw his phone across the spot. Like, he was shocked. It was so funny. I was like, "That is crazy." See, I thought you were gonna say--first of all though of course, phenomenal choice. Like, how can I critique you on the choices? I asked a question and you gave me your favorite schemes. I thought that you were gonna talk about that third round scheme against JC when you said, "We handle MACs well, so whatever I'm aiming will leave your baby face on that black street." Chilla: Oh, the R&B scheme. Zach: Yes, that was crazy.Chilla: I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many schemes that I can reference. I mean, obviously that's a really good one. The music instrument scheme in that same battle, the car parts scheme in that same battle. M. Ciddy I had the Out of This World scheme, which was like--there's so many schemes that I could mention. I tried to pick something that was fairly recent.Zach: And they were clean too.Chilla: Yeah, but there's so many, like--man, I probably have 25 to 30 schemes that I could have picked, you know, that I really, really like. Like, I have a--especially over time, man, I've--my standards for schemes have gone up because A. because I have a reputation for them, but also B. because people do them so much that, you know, I have to separate myself. So it would be different if I was the only person doing it. You know, my standards wouldn't have to be so high, but the fact that every battler tries to scheme at some point in their career and at some point in most of their battles, like, I have to--I have to have a--I have to be at a level that shows a clear difference of, like, "That's why they say he's the best at scheming. He's way better than everybody else." And so I try to put it together in a way that gives people that impression.Zach: Well, you know, what I'm excited about, and I'm just happy that you were able to join the podcast, because, you know, we--the type of people we try to interview, right--so we try to interview corporate professionals, social influencers, and then creatives, right? Non-white in all those different spaces, and I think, you know, your space is unique because, you know, there are just very few people who can do what you do, and it's exciting because I feel as if on our podcast, the guests that we have, they all have, like, really unique talents, skill sets, experiences, perspectives. So as I let you go, and before I do that rather, what, if any, projects do you want to shout out? Do you have anything you want to plug? Anything you want to talk about? Any parting words? Anything going on at all?Chilla: So shout-outs, first and foremost King of the Dot Championship, London, England, March 3rd. Make sure you guys tune in. It's Chilla Jones versus Head Ice for the King of the Dot Championship. If you're not into battle rap, if you don't follow battle rap, this is a really good event for you to get started. You can get a pay-per-view and watch it live on your computer, your mobile phone, your Xbox, your PlayStation, your Amazon Fire Stick, your smart TV. However you want to do it. Definitely get involved with the culture. See what we're about. See what I am about. Also I want to give a big shout-out to my bro. Me and my brother have a big project coming out in 2019 musically. I haven't put out a music project since 2014. I'm super, super excited about it. A lot of big features. I got Method Man on there. I got a couple other people on there. Man, I'm so happy with this project. I can't wait to start letting you guys hear it. We're planning on releasing the first single with the Head Ice battle, as that drops on King of the Dot's YouTube channel at the end of March, so be on the lookout for that as well. Otherwise you can follow me on Twitter @ChillaJones. Follow me on Instagram, @ChillaJones as well, or tune into the website, www.ChillaJones.com. I got all types of Kingpin merchandise. You can see all of my battles there. You can read my bio. You can check out my last music project. Anything Chilla Jones-related, I promise you can find it on www.ChillaJones.com.Zach: Man, first of all, again, I'm just--I'm shocked that we were able to get you on the show. We've been scheming trying to--no pun intended--trying to get you on here. We've been plotting this for some months. Chilla: Yeah, for a while, man. I'm happy to be here. Happy to do it for sure.Zach: Yeah, man. Well, look, man, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Of course you can check us out everywhere on living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. We're also at livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv. Just know livingcorporate.com, we told y'all this before, Australia owns livingcorporate.com. I don't know what's going on. They've got, like, some type of apartment selling website over there, so we can't get that domain, but we have every other domain. Like, it's crazy. You can also follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. This has been Zach. You have been listening to Chilla Jones, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Martin Luther Kingpin, A.K.A. Bosstown.Chilla: Yes, sir.Zach: Peace.