In our first B-side episode, we sit down with creative entrepreneur Deun Ivory and discuss her current projects and her thoughts on Living Corporate's mission. Length: 00:19:23Host: ZachDeun Ivory Contact:http://www.deunivory.me/https://www.instagram.com/deunivory/Shout outs: Luvvie https://www.instagram.com/luvvie/?hl=enBlack Girl In Om: https://www.instagram.com/blackgirlinom/?hl=enAlex Elle: https://www.instagram.com/alex_elle/?hl=enHanahana Beauty: https://www.instagram.com/hanahana_beauty/?hl=enAdrienne Raquel: https://www.instagram.com/adrienneraquel/?hl=enCrwn Magazine: https://www.instagram.com/crwnmag/?hl=enTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up y’all? Welcome to Living Corporate B-sides. So B-sides are essentially random shows we have in between our larger shows. These are much less structured, and somehow, even more lit, if you can believe it or not, than our regularly scheduled shows. Now you may ask “What do you mean by more lit, Zach?” Now watch this - sound man, give the them horns. [air horns] Zach: See what I’m saying?  For these shows it may just be the Living Corporate team talking about the last episode and more recent events. It may be one of us, it might be three of us, or we may have a 1 on 1 with  special guest to talk about their perspective on the latest topic on our show and plug their stuff… you know, just kick it. The guest may be a corporate professional, they may be an entrepreneur, who knows? Right? They may even one of the fastest rising stars in the world of creatives, especially around holistic wellness for black women. Yes, we have her here folks: Deuncye AKA Deunbra AKA “momma, there go that woman” AKA D.I. AKA your fave photographer’s fave photographer, AKA kween, AKA “whoa why you do em like that sis?” AKA Essence AKA Crwn Mag AKA VSCO Vixen AKA I’m saved but don’t push me AKA “whoaaa is that her?” on the poster at your apple store AKA IG Influencer AKA your intern wishes they could work for HER! Y”all! *the* DEUN IVORY! What’s up Deun? Deun: [laughs] Oh. My God. You are literally a boost. You are literally a boost. Oh my god, I am completely done, I’m about to fly out of here. That was - wow. That was an amazing introduction. I feel great! Zach: I’m really glad. So off top, major love to Deun because she was actually encouraging me to start Living Corporate like last year and she been told me I should be doing podcasts. For those who don’t know you, Deun, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Deun: Yes absolutely, so once again my name is Deun Ivory and I am a creative entrepreneur AKA a woman who does the most. I am a photographer, I’m an illustrator, I’m an art director for Black Girl in Om, which is the number one platform for women of color on their wellness journey. I do brand consulting and  brand design for women of color who start their own businesses. I’m an influencer, I do brand partnerships, I do a little bit of modeling. Ooh lord, it’s just- I mean the list goes on and on. Like, I do a lot and I really love what I do because it’s primarily focused on how I can help black women thrive. How I can help black women live their best lives and be unapologetically themselves. So I affirm you, I love on you, I celebrate you through a series of creative practices and I love it and I feel like I am created to do this  work that I’m doing. So yeah. Zach: So Deun, we’ve talked about the fact that your space is holistic wellness for black women, right? So talk to me about what it looks like to be mindful of yourself and to take care of yourself and to practice wellness within, let’s just say, like the corporate context. Like if I’m sitting at my desk and I’m stressed out. I got a funky email or someone’s really riding my back -- What are some  practical tips that you could give us around just taking care of yourself? Deun: Yes, so one thing that I think is really really important is to be mindful of the breath, which is something that we highlight all the time in Black Girl in Om. Like breathing easy? What does that mean? What does that look like? And I think that a lot of time we aren’t aware of how important a breath is. Like when you’re angry, you know your heart is racing, you’re breathing really fast, you’re just really upset, you know? And sometimes it’s good to just sit and meditate. In meditation? You are focused on breathing in and breathing out. You are bringing your focus to this one thing, which is breathing in and breathing out. And within that sitting still, that time of sitting still and breathing in and breathing out, exhaling, right? Inhaling love, exhaling anger. Inhaling growth, exhaling whatever it is that you’re trying to release. You kind of become more balanced and grounded in your own space. You’re able to think more clearly without being driven by emotion, y’know? So I think it’s a beautiful practice and beautiful space to create because you can access it or do it anywhere. You don’t have to pay any money for it, you know, god gave you this breath, use it, be mindful, be aware of it, and meditate as much as you can. And that can be for two minutes. Breathing in and breathing out. What do I want to release, what do I want to I want to bring in, you know. Kind of like aligning yourself with how you want to feel. So, that is  one thing. Journaling is so important because it’s a brain dump. And I think it’s really important to release, especially - I was talking about this with a friend today - black people internalize so much, right? And I think it’s important that we begin to externalize, you know? I mean obviously don’t do anything that’s gonna harm other people, which is why you can turn to writing. You know, you can write out your feelings, try to get to the root of why you may feel a certain way about something. Writing is so important for your self-care journey because you’re able to keep track of like who you are, where you are, how do you feel at this moment, okay? How can I realistically and practically get to this next level or this next whatever in my growth. Also gratitude.  Gratitude is something that is talked about a lot because it’s  so powerful. When you just sit and you really just immerse yourself in the blessings that surround you, you can change your mindset and perceive things differently, and look at things just like god trying to show you something.  Or you may be mindful of the fact that you are living in abundance despite the fact that you may be lacking this or might be lacking that. Yeah so I would say meditation and breath, journaling, and gratitude. Zach: Man those are great answers. And it’s funny, you said it at the beginning but you’re absolutely right. The tips, the advice that you’re providing here- it’s free! All it takes is intentionality and making sure that you actually do those things, but it’s not like I need to go sign up for something way out here. Deun: RightZach: That’s really cool, and I think it’s funny because the other point you made around us internalizing things like black people we do internalize things like as a culture. And when I talk to other people, like other minorities, those experiences are not so exclusive to us, right? So I think that’s really good advice. Man, thank you for that. Deun: Definitely! I’m happy to have shared it. Zach: I love your story and I’m excited because we’re really just still at the beginning of it. Now I know you’re not in Corporate America, but you have friends who are and you’ve done partnerships with actual Corporations, so it’s not like you’re completely alien to the concept of Corporate America. I know that you have been listening to Living Corporate, can you kinda talk to me about how you feel about the show so far?Deun: Yes absolutely! I mean when you first brought this idea to me, I was like “hey, this is definitely a space that needs to be created” because there are black people who, you know, have these narratives that need to be shared about their experiences in the corporate world and from my understanding, there was no space like this, especially for black millennials! So I think that this is very beautiful, very necessary, very transformative. I feel like it’s a safe space for people to feel like ‘I can come here and talk about everything that I’ve gone through and help other individuals who work in corporate america get through what they’re going through’. And although I have the blessing of not working in corporate america, you know, like you said, I do know a lot women, and work with them often through Black Girl in Om, to talk about being in corporate spaces where they’re the only black woman, and you know, they need to know like “how do I practice meditation? How can I cultivate a self care practice?” It’s all necessary, it’s all connected, and I’m happy to help in any way that I can and I’m so happy that you guys have created this space. Zach : Man, thank you for the love, Deun! And straight up, this is heartwarming, it really is. The thing about it is, it’s just so funny that because of the space that you engage and some of the work that we’re doing. So we actually have a show coming up in a couple weeks around mental wellness in corporate america, so what I’m really excited about as we get that show going is really pointing people to some of the resources and some of the things you’ve been doing, right? That you’ve been working on around wellness and just holistic wellness for in your case, specifically black women, but I think a lot of the things you actually create will be helpful for any non-white person in majority white spaces, right? And so when you think about what we’re doing is we’re trying to, to your point, create that safe space and beyond a  safe space, a courageous space. Like for people to really lean in and be themselves, and to be affirmed and built up. So for those who don’t know, we’re in Houston, we’re in my home. We are in my abode Deun [laughs] Okay. Zach: And I noticed, I’m looking around, and I see art, right? And for those who don’t know, I’ve been a fan. I’ve been a Deun fan. Deun: This is true Zach: Right, and I’m looking around and I’m looking at artwork adorning my walls and it just leads me to ask, you know, who was your first true blue client? Who was  your first client? Deun: You are so extra. YOU, Zachary Nunn, was my first client. And I thank you so much. You had me design a custom illustration for you and your beautiful wife, and man, you know, that really just started something special. Because, I mean I really started poppin then, people were like coming to me, requesting me, and it was amazing, so thank you! Zach: [laughs] Self serving on my side for sure, and jokes and stuff aside, I want to thank you for taking the time to sit down with me today. And I know you’re busy, right? So talk to us about what you got going on right now. Get your rounds off. Like, what are some of the brands that you’ve worked with, who are the favorite celebrities, I know that I saw recently that you worked with Luvvie, but just talk to us about some of the things that you’ve got going on and some of the things that you’ve recently completed. Deun: Right, so like I told y’all from jump, I always have a lot going on, and I’m just so blessed and so eternally grateful for that. Speaking on previous achievements or goals  or whatever you want to call them, I was featured in Essence in their April issue for Black Girl in Om, which is really really beautiful. If you have not been to an Apple store, you need to go their right now because you will see my face and my work shown all throughout the display monitors, on the phones, on the little gallery wall, on the iPads, all of that good stuff. And so that was really beautiful too because I was reached out to by the creative director of Today at Apple personally, who told  me that he was a really huge fan of my work and I was like “dang, this is crazy!” You know, so he had me create and curate these beautiful images on my iphone, and so I had a chance to put my friends on, you know, and so they’re in this international campaign which is crazy, and my self portraits! So that was really beautiful. And recently I became one of VSCO Voices grant recipients and I’m gonna be taking on this 6-month project about sexual abuse within a marginalized community, specifically black women. And that is a story that is very personal to me because I too am a woman who is now thriving in the aftermath of such a traumatic event. So that’s something that I am currently doing right now and yes I did have a chance to shoot Luvvie for the cover of this magazine with Design Sponge that will be coming out really soon. I have some amazing things in the works for Black Girl in Om, you know we have some retreats popping off, some live podcasts, I’m going to be doing my first keynote address at a photo conference in Palm Springs next year in 2019. Be sure to follow me on instagram and I will keep you updated with tickets and all of that.I mean, I don’t even know. Literally the list could go on and on and on, but those are some of the major projects that I’m doing, and I’m so excited about them, so. Yeah, that’s what I got going on. Zach: That’s really cool, so you know, you said something about your Instagram,  so where can people connect with you? Where can they buy your art? Where can they engage with you further? Deun: Yes, absoutely, so you can follow me on instagram @deunivory. I’m on that on instagram, I’m also on that on Twitter, and Black Girl in Om, you should follow us on instagram as well because we curate and create amazing experiences and art Zach: yes  y’all do Deun: Thank you. Oh yeah, I have another baby, Ivory and Ashe Life on Instagram which is a company that I founded with Lauren Ashe who is also the founder of Black Girl in Om. It’s like a mindfulness goods brand for women of color. And Hello G&G which is an activation series that I just started with my friend Abena Boamah, who is the founder of Hanahana Beauty. If you are in need of some lotion that’s gon get you your entire life, and have you glowing and shining like none other, you need to check out Hanahana Beauty on instagram. So I know those were a lot of handles, but I got a lot going on, and I’m pretty sure you’re going to be receiving so much beauty and affirmation from all of these platforms. Zach: Oh absolutely, and you know, I can specifically vouch for - well fist of all, Black Girl in Om is super dope. I visit your website, I visit your IG page all the time, beautiful work there. And then also I can vouch for Hanahana Beauty because I’ve actually met Abena a couple months  ago, and she gave me some of her cocoa butter. Deun: The shea butter Zach: The Shea butter, excuse me, that’s  right the shea butter and it was fire Deun: yeah! Zach: Yes my fingers were very very supple Deun: HA! Zach: My skin was lustrious Deun: [laughs] that’s literally - yes, like that’s what it is, it’s just what it is. And she’s been featured in essence and numerous other platforms because this  stuff- it’s the truth. Zach: So the thing about it is - this  is our inaugural kick off for our b-sides but eventually we definitely want you, Abena, Lauren Ashe, we could make it just like a Black Girl in Om party because we really want to talk about entrepreneurship while being other, and you know, like you guys have really burst on the scene, and yall -  the space that you guys are inhabiting, you guys are really rocking that domain Deun: Thank you! Zach: No problem, I mean, thank y’all. Let’s do this- before we kinda wrap it up, do you have any more shout outs? Deun: I wanna shout out to everybody! I mean relationships are such an integral part of my success, for one. You know, I would not be here if god had not blessed me with the relationships I have with these phenomenal black women who are intelligent and brilliant and who celebrate me and have shown me how to celebrate others. So definitely my creative partners Lauren Ashe and  Abena Boamah, my best friend in the whole wide world, Victoria Banjo. My good friends in Houston, you know Eunice and Selma and Unique and everybody from Good Hope, my amazing husband Eric Michael Ward, who is also an amazing photographer and is the reason why I’m in photography now. He’s so dope. Oh my god, who else? Alex Elle for really just trusting me to create her logo and allowing me to be on her podcast, which gave me great exposure and also the reason why I have so many clients and you know, people who kinda know me, yknow, I’m grateful for that. And Sarad at Essence for reaching out to Lauren and I for the Essence cover, well not Essence cover, but you know, I’m manifesting that- Zach: Yes, c’mon Deun: -for the Essence Feature. Crwn Magazine for always putting us  on, if y’all need to be in the know of like a black magazine that caters to black women, our hair, our experiences, Crwn Mag, C-R-W-N. They are legit. Adrian Rochelle who is another phenomenal black woman. Just-- Brilliant! Ahead of her time. Please follow her on Instagram, she’s amazing. If I have missed you, please know it is  not on purpose. Okay, I just came back from a memorial party, it was real lit, I was eatin real good and I’m tired, but know that I love you and I mean well. But thank you to everybody who has been supportive, who has loved on me and shown me support and held me accountable and also been very honest with me from the jump, so. Yes, those are my shout outs. Zach: Dope, well, we’ll make sure to include all the @’s and links for all that you’ve referenced so that folks can make sure to connect with you. Definitely shout out to you ma’am, shout out to your wonderful husband, E-Mike, who is  my best friend, right? Best man at my wedding. Shout out to LaurenAsh and Abenah and HanaHana and Grow & Glow, and shout out to Black Girl In Om! Deun: yes! Zach: Okay, well look, I think that might do it. I think that does us for the show. Again, guys this is our first b-side, these are just gonna be loose,laid back, more fun episodes, and you can kinda meet friends of the show and kind of just get to know some of the hosts and some of our guests. You know, we don’t typically do it like this on the regular shows, but Deun would you mind signing us off?Deun:... okay! [laughs] alright, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through.  If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. Once again, my name is Deun Ivory! Zach: my name is Zach, peace!

In this episode, Zach and Ade discuss the role of education and building wealth with Accenture senior strategy consultant, Richard Odior.Length: 00:33:33Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTAde: “Research and public policy have traditionally focused on education and income as drivers of upward mobility. There is compelling evidence, however, that education alone does little to explain the source of different levels of economic well-being, especially across race. Observing an association between higher levels of educational attainment and higher levels of net wealth and concluding that education produces wealth is tantamount to observing an association between the presence of umbrellas during rainfalls and concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. It's more likely that the relative wealth of different races explains the educational attainment differences across race groups.” This excerpt is from “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans” a joint report between The New School, Duke Center for Social Equality, and Insight, a non-profit research entity. What does this mean for people of color trying to secure the bag? What role, if any, does education play in affecting our income? And if education alone won’t secure the bag, what will? Hi, my name is Ade. And this is Living Corporate.Ade: So today, we’re talking about greenery. Cheese. To be more specific, we're talking about paper, stacks, racks, looseleaf, guap, benjamins, all that. Zach: So we're talking about money? Ade: Mhmm, getting to the bag. More specifically and more to the point of this show, what role, if any, does education plays a role in securing said bag. Zach: You know, this is a great topic, I'm really excited that we're talking about it. Because I know for me growing up, education was a big deal. It was a big deal for its own sake because my mom is a principal now and before that, she was an English teacher. Butt off top she told me, look, the expectation is for you to get a Masters. We didn’t even talk about me going to college because we knew that we were going to college, no joke. I didn’t even walk for my undergrad degree. Not because I don’t believe college matters, but because it was so much the expectation. Ade: Same here - it wasn’t even a spoken thing, my family just expected me to go to college. You need to go to college to get a job and you need a job to get money so it was an automatic thought process there. Zach: Right, and to be honest I just figured the more education you got, the more money you’d make. But as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that isn’t always the case. Ade: Well, to keep it real for a second, how many people do we know who, at the barest minimum, have a bachelor's degree, but have not secured the bag?And before we go any further, this is certainly not to disparage anybody with a bachelor's degree under their belt, or who have terminal degrees. This is just a process of trying to understand what the secret sauce is. Listen, if there's a formula, somebody needs to put me on. I was on Fishbowl, which is, for those who don't know, it's an anonymous posting app for consultants and there were just so many different stories and conversations going on around compensation that I've never been exposed to before. And it’s even more unbelievable because that study I referenced at the top of the show, again it's called “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans”, it calls out  median wealth by education level, and it shows a disparity between black and white families- where Black families with a post baccalaureate have a combined wealth of 84k white families at the same level have a combined wealth of almost 300k. The numbers get even more bleak with fewer years of education. Zach: Right, and I appreciate you sharing this data. It's a great report "Umbrellas don't make it rain", we'll make sure to have it in the actual show description but I look at those numbers myself like “HOW SWAY? HOW!!” How is that possible?!  The thing about it is, though, neither one of us has finished grad school, so most of our talking points are gonna be second hand, right? It would be great if we could talk to a 1st generation Corporate professional who, maybe they graduated from a top 3 grad school in the nation. You know, someone who could share their story about their experiences Ade: Right, right Zach: What the job hunting was like and maybe how they used their degree to get to the next level, perhaps? Ade: Like our guest, Richard Odior? Ade + Zach : whaaaaaaa? Zach: Sound man - I need you to go ahead and drop them thangs in here for me! [air horns] Ade: [Laughs] alright, so next, we’re going to get into our interview with our guest Richard Odior. I hope you guys enjoy-------Zach: Hey y’all, we’re back! Annnnd as Ade said, we have Richard Odior on the show! Richard, welcome to Living Corporate man!Richard: Thanks for having me, guys, I'm glad to come to the show, I guess. This is exciting, man.Zach: So, for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing your story a bit? Specifically of how you (1) got into Corp America and (2) what led you to pursue an MBA?Richard: Yeah, so I went to the University of Houston and majored in Finance, and like anybody else in Houston, there's one option - oil and gas. So I quickly hopped into a career in finance in oil and gas for a couple of years, worked in commodity trading, then like financial performance analysis, pretty much all the board for a while. And then luckily I was able to gather with a group of friends who were trying to do some entrepreneurial things, and we opened up a chain of gourmet donut cafes in Houston. Shout out to Glazed. And so one of the things that the experience let me know is that I loved building things. I love growing things. But it also let me know I liked growing things fast. And what I learned about through that experience is that brick and mortar is a bit slower and so I went back to school in a sense to move back to a faster paced growth, and so for me that was tech, right? Tech enabled businesses. So, I went back to business school with two things in mind- either going to Venture Capital, or going to Consulting. Because I wanted to see a faster paced growth, that's kind of how my mission to go back to school started.Zach: So talk to me a bit more about growing things and growing things fast. When did you realize that the pace that you worked at was perhaps a little bit faster than that of your surroundings?Richard: Oh man, it was as soon as week three of work. I think at the time, oil and gas was moving slow, companies were paying people crazy amounts of dollars to do little work, and so I joined my new  group, and I was probably the only other person under 30 in my group of like thirty five people. And primarily because companies were paying people to do work that could have been automated and people were not motivated to move up because they were getting annual promotions, annual raises, and it was outlandish. And I just realized this was very slow. In the first 6 month of being there, I had already surpassed a lot of people of the floor because everybody was coasting, and it wasn’t because I was doing anything amazing, I was just putting in more effort than the average individual, right?Zach: Right, right.Richard: And for me, that just kinda wasn't what I wanted to do. I figured 'while you're young, do as much as you can as fast as you can, and learn as much as you can.' So I just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing, and through the experiences I was able, and great mentors at the company, I was able to build really fast, get into new roles, get new  opportunities that a lot of people probably wouldn't get into until several years into their career. And so that was pretty amazing, but then I realized I didn’t have ownership of anything. I didn't have anything that I could call my staple item. When you're working in oil and gas, you don't own an oil rig, you don't build an oil rig, you don't make any of  that, so I was like 'what is my impact?' and I didn't feel it. And I felt like there was a way to feel it, that I wanted to tangibly know that I had changed something. So, I looked at somewhere else. And luckily I had some friends who were into the same thing, into building, into cultivating, into doing some really cool things. And we just started chatting and we said 'hey, what can we do?'Zach: Were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven right when you got there? And were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven wrong?Richard: One preconceived notion, at least for business school, and I'll speak to business school, the hardest part was getting in. Once you're in, it's busy, it's difficult, it's kind of like a ride. You're growing yourself and learning and meeting new people all the time, and sometimes a lot of the work gets masked, if that makes sense. You don't realize how much work you're doing because it's  masked in so many other experiences. The opportunities really feel global. Like, I traveled almost thirty countries in two years, it was ridiculous.Zach: thirty countries in two years?Richard: Yeah I think the final number was like twenty-eight. And I can speak for myself, I don't want to speak for all minorities, but it's just one of the things that a friend of mine told me - speak up, raise your hand, and don't be afraid. Minorities tend to feel like our voice is not going to be on par with the rest of everybody. We think about what we're going to say so carefully because we want to seem a  certain way, and what I realized, and what my buddy told me, he was like 'you're here because you earned it. Don't ever feel like you didn't earn it, and don't ever feel like you can't compete.' Those were really really big words for me because I think often times I went to a public school, I went to the University of Houston, right? And a lot of b school classes have students coming out of Columbia, Harvard, Yale, and so sometimes you get this mindset like 'yoo what am I going to do, I'm not on the same level.' And then you get in there and you pull something out of yourself that you don't understand  that you have. And you understand that you're here because you're valuable, you're here because you bring something to the table, and I think that was one of the things that I had to shake off when I first got there.Zach: It's funny that you bring that up, talking about 'you look around the room and you see all these people that got really big collegiate names next to them' and how you question yourself like 'do you really belong there.' it's funny because a couple shows ago we had- we were talking about imposter syndrome and how you battle that. And it's funny that you kind of bring that up when you say 'not feeling like you should have to prove your seat at the table.' But that if you're here, you earned it, and you're here for a reason.I hope that people take that away and that they're encouraged by it. That's a really good message. And I think it's actually applicable in and outside of Academia, right?Richard: I always tell people like 'Let someone else turn you away,' right?Zach: Straight up, yeahRichard: The amount of times we (and I talk about we as the minority population), We self-doubt ourselves, right? We say oh-- I remember in undergrad, there was a career fair and there were several companies recruiting. And my buddies, we walked in and they veered off left and I veered off to the right and I was like 'yo guys, why don't you come in here?' and they were like 'well my GPA's not this and my grades aren't that' and I said 'let them tell you no'. I'm not going to tell myself no, you know? Someone needs to pat me on the back and say 'Hey Richard, what you're doing is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your product is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your grades aren't good enough', because I'm not going to tell myself I'm not good enough.Zach: Man, amenRichard: I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to hand in my resume to whoever's there, and we're going to have this conversation, and then you're gonna tell me I'm not good enough.Zach: No, straight up, I'm cheering you on when you're talking because man, that's my philosophy. Like, look man, there's plenty of people out there who will tell me I'm not whatever. I'm either too academic or not academic enough, I'm either too strategic or too tactical, or I'm too this or not enough that. Listen, man. There's enough out there already of all of that. So I'm not gonna be an additional voice for that, I'm going to tell myself I am enoughRichard: You are enough, yeah!Zach: You know, like what's the point? So you gonna sit back and join every other voice that's out there? Not to be super pessimistic and say that the world's against you, that's not what I'm saying. But there's more than enough voices  and perspectives and opinions, be that for whatever reason, that are gonna discount you, so don't discount yourself! Let them tell you, Let them push you out the room, let them tell you that you shouldn't sit at the table. Then you fight, but don't kick yourself before you even get started.Richard: 100% you gotta walk in like you already have a seat at the table every time you walk in the room.Zach: RightRichard: Every time. Every time you walk in the room. Now, I'm gonna let you pull my chair out, but I'm not pulling my own chair out of underneath myself.Zach: I'm saying! [Laughs]Richard: I have a  seat!Zach: That's rightRichard: I don't care what room it is. I walk in, I have a seat. That's how you have to operate.Zach: No absolutely. Well look, man, today as you know, we're talking about getting to the bag, right? And so the context was all around, like, we looked at a study called Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain and it's essentially  dispelling certain myths about wealth inequality and income inequality. And one of the things for me and Ade that we were talking about on the show, growing up, I just thought that if you got a grad degree, that they were just going to hand you money, right? That you're just gonna walk out of that thing with a thick six-figure salary, and so my question to you - what would you say to people who just make that assumption? Like look, I went to grad school, I got my MBA, and now it's time for me to get that 160,000, 180,000, 220,000 dollar bag. Like, what would you say to people who make that assumption?Richard: Whew, uh, I think a couple things to get the bag, you gotta be ready, first what are you bringing to the table? What industry are you looking to go into? What were you doing before? And how are you going to change the organization that you're going to now? So, for example, even me going to business school was interesting. I remember when I was making the decision, I was basically a finance guy, so I had to put it in a spreadsheet, right? And so, I had to say 'okay, if I go to business school and pay X and come out and get paid this, then it's valuable.' And I hate to sound like a snob, in a sense, but I think a lot of times people don't understand what they're investing in when they go to grad school. And I say this to say - not to knock any program -  all programs are not created equal, all opportunities are not created equal, so going to any grad school is not the same as going to certain grad schools, if that makes senseZach: YeahRichard: And it all depends on where you are in life, right? At a certain point, I usually say it's a premium spot is maybe 4 to 6, anywhere from 4 to 6 years is a premium spot because you've probably made good enough money at the place you're in, but still have enough value from the MBA to get the post-MBA salary and still be worth it. Let me give an example - if you work 8 years and you've made your salary is now at  X dollars, it's harder to leverage the MBA because the jump that you can make is smaller, right? But if you go at prime time, which is usually, for most people about 4-6 years, a jump is still very sizeable. So for example, I was blessed with a really good job before, like I said, it was great, I was making really good money. But post MBA, I was still able to increase my overall salary by more than 50%. At that point, the numbers still made sense. But if I had stayed in my current company for maybe another year or two, the jump would not have been as large.Zach: RightRichard: Also, I think some of the big things - it's not just about the bag now, it's about the bag later. And I say that in the sense that if you go to the right program with the right resources and the right network, the beauty of it is, it's not just about you getting the bag today, but your network will also be getting the bag. And so your network is your bag as well. Because whenever they're looking to hire a consultant down the line? It's you. Whenever they're looking to hire someone for an acquisition? It's you. They're gonna operate in the network of other people that they believe are competent. One of the things I noticed - I work in consulting- one of the things I noticed was some of the best managing directors, what they leverage is their MBA network. What they utilize is their other classmates working in industry, at whatever company it may be, and they reach out to them and they sell these huge million dollar projects back and forth. And because that bag is not just a today bag, it's a future bag, right? And so I won't say that knowledge isn't something that you can always google. There's a lot of aspects you can Google about the knowledge you can get, the documentation, but a large part of business school is  the in-person interaction. I used to sit with my classmates from Colombia, India, Indonesia, all over the world, and we would talk about different concepts and I'd learn directly from them. And two things that I got - I got unique knowledge, but I also got to know them better. So, when I tell you I went to 28 countries, I was going with these people from those countries and I was learning business through them and with them and now in the future, they know that if an opportunity comes, I can knock on their door, they can knock on mine.Zach: When we talk about wealth or the bag, I know for me that my default is "how much money am I going to make off of  this job?' Individually, me, right now. As opposed to, to your point, pulling from your network, right? And thinking about, you said, the bag in the future. I would say even if your bag is only, you know, in the context of a yearly salary, your bag isn't big enough, right? Like I would say you need to be thinking about really what encompasses the bag. And to your point, it's that network. When you think about MDs and Partners and Principals, especially cats who have been selling work for 5, 10, 15 years, they typically are selling work back and forth to like the same what like 7 or 8 people?Richard: 7 or 8 people!Zach: Like it's not like they're like 'oh I found this brand new guy that just popped out of nowhere' No, they have a network there.Richard: That's part of the bag. The relationships are part of the bag because ideally, one of the things I realized, and if you go to the right program, if you do it the right way, you don't have to get to the bag immediately. And I've seen it multiple times where someone went to grad school, they might have not gotten the exact job they wanted, but they take another job, they did well, they got promoted, then two jobs down the line, when a great opportunity comes with that company, well their friend works at that company and is high in that company, and they pull them over. You see a gravitation of 'oh that company's run by a bunch of X people that go to that school, that company is  run by a lot of people that go to that program.' It's because there's a relationship that's being built, that's being carried over in so many ways. There's a reason why certain companies recruit at certain schools, because those relationships, someone high in that company is from that school and has that relationship, so there's definitely value. And if you're changing industries, there's definitely a value there. And that was one of the factors that if you're putting it into a spreadsheet, you won't be able to put that part in the spreadsheet. Your bag might not be actual cash, it might be your happiness and your enjoyment of getting into something you wanna do. I have a lot of friends from school who might have been doing things like banking, investment banking previously, making north of 200 [thousand] a year, and took jobs that make maybe half of that post because their ideal goal was to get to something that was different, and that was  the bag for them. And so identifying what your bag is is a big thing. If you identify what your bag is, then you can identify how to get to the bagZach: That's a really good point, man. I like that a lot. So to your point, I think perspective matters. What you're thinking about what your goals are. Which actually is a good segue to my next question, so as a follow up to that, what was your strategy for you on leveraging an MBA for where you want to go? So when you think about - man did you even plug the school? Did you plug the school that you went to?Richard: Oh I gotta plug my school, I was waiting for the end, but I went to Kellogg, man. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, man. That's my home, man. They took care of me for a good two years, man.Zach: There we go. So my question is when you think about Kellogg and the degree that you earned, what was your strategy on leveraging your MBA for where you wanted to go? Like how did it fit into your master plan?Richard: I'm still leveraging it now. I mean, in multiple ways. I think for me, the school, ideally chose the school for one a few reasons, right? One was the programs that had the learning that I like to learn. It had a lot of hands-on learning, but mixed with class work. And they promised that you would work in over 400 groups before you left. And I was like wow, 400? I was like alright. And the importance of that was that I work best when I get to know people. Like I'm not the best, but I've always been good at managing relationships and I wanted to go to a school where I'd get to interact with people, manage and harvest relationships, and be able to develop with these people. So when I chose the school, that was definitely in mind, and then on top of that, since I've been in school, the network is amazing. I've been able to reach out to so many people and I've made mentors and connections through our network that have been beyond anything I could have dreamed about. And I'm still making networks and connections, I'm still making calls, and I'm still giving back in the same way. And so I'm always in this realm of gratefulness to the program, but it's leveraged me to be able to have conversations with individuals who probably would never, if I had just tried to make a certain transition, would answer my call. In my phone, to this day, I have the numbers saved of at least 5 millionaires. Easily. And that's a minimum. And those came through the experience of when I got to Kellogg, connecting with certain people, being continuously connected to my goals. For me, I had several short term and long term goals. I was able to utilize my network very early on. I remember the first week of school, we did an exercise, and it was in your sections, sections  were usually around 60 people, and so our professor said I want you to tell me something that is one of your largest goals and I want you to put it on the board. And we're one by one putting it on the board. And anybody who could help you get to your goal would come write their name on your sheet.Zach: oh wow, that's powerful.Richard: and it was  interesting because he said 'you don't realize what you have alone in this room. Not even the whole school, but what you have alone in this room.' And from that first week of school alone, from the people who wrote their name on my list, I've been able to go so far. It's been crazy, I've met some of the millionaires I was said I connected to was through one exercise. And they leveraged me to introduce me to other people and it's been amazing and so, because of that, I naturally have been given experiences where I don't even have to leverage the MBA, the MBA gave to me directly, if that makes sense.Zach: No it does, that makes a lot of sense, man. So look, I have a last question for you - do you have any other plugs, other shoutouts?Richard: Whew, um, I got a lot of shout outs, a lot og plugsZach: Do your thing man, do your thingRichard: I gotta do a Glazed Donut Café - if you’re in Houston, for sure, check this out. They're my family. Love you. Kellogg's School of Management, Bauer was my undergrad, go Coug's, I learned everything I know from them. I also wanna plug Impact America Fund. One of the firms I used to work at, and I got connected to them during business school. It's a double bottom line venture capital fund which focuses on investing in minority entrepreneurs and underrepresented minorities. I learned a lot from the people at that firm and I've grown a lot through them. I want to shout out to Living Corporate for doing what they're doing. You guys don't know how major this is right here. Honestly, as someone who has constantly worked in corporate america, this is something we used to talk about in business school is - we often have to cover and hover and hide who we are constantly, and what you guys are giving people is the opportunity to really be open, and also an opportunity to see that you're not alone in the workplace. Which is often times when you're the 'other,' you always feel alone. This podcast alone has excited me so much because it lets me know I'm not alone, and lets me hear the stories of people who are doing great things that are also considered an 'other' at work.Zach: Aw man, that's amazing, well first of all Richard, bro thank you for the kind words. The thing about it is, what excites me is your energy is - and spoiler alert for those who don't know, Richard and I are friendly, and we've known each other for about a decade now-Richard: yeah man, a decade!Zach: But what's crazy, and what excites me is the fact that when you say something, especially when you give praise, and also when you constructive criticism, but when you speak all that energy, it comes from a really authentic place. And so, we wanna thank you for joining us today, and definitely all the shout outs- I want to endorse. Eat Glazed. Glazed is  a great donut spot, good donuts, great flavors, if you're in Houston, check it out. You'll probably see us shout them out on our IG stories, so stay tuned for that, but anyway, Richard man, thank you for joining us todayRichard: Yeah, and any minorities who are listening and you're thinking about grad school or business school, I can speak specifically to business school, if you're thinking about business  school, feel free to hit me up. Honestly, I'm an open book, I like talking, I'll have a conversation with you, anyone who needs anything honestly. My goal is to see more of us in those spaces, because honestly something I will say is it's a leveling ground. It evens out the field and I've seen it multiple times, for people who were not given a silver spoon to start off with. So if you want to have a conversation, if you just have questions in general, these guys have my contact info, feel free to reach out and we can chop it upZach: We'll definitely put the contact info in the podcast description. Drop your stuff, man, what's your twitter, your IG-Richard: yeah so my email is richard.odior@gmail.com, my IG is r.odior. That's it, you can find me on facebook, find me on LinkedIn, feel free to touch base any time. Let me know that you came from Living Corporate first so I can show these guys some love.Zach: [laughs] yeah man, that's what's up. Richard, again brother, thank you. We look forward to talking to you again soon, brother. Alright, Peace.--Ade: And we’re back. Yo, that was a great interview and Richard was a fun guest. He had some great insights on how you can leverage a degree for your goals, but I think I’m more certain now than I was before that that degree isn’t a cheat code. Zach: Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I was raised to think that having a graduate degree would give me one two three four five six seven eight Ms in my bank account. Ade: Right, but at the same time I do believe the degrees have their time and place. They just need to be part of your plan. Which is it’s own thing. Zach: Real talk. I know for me I genuinely want to get a grad degree, right? First it was an MBA, but now I’m thinking an I/O Psych PHD but -- Ade: Oh, ok you fancy huh? Zach: I am very fancy, for sure. The point is, I’m trying to think it through, like the why of the degree, because school isn't free. Definitely not even cheap Ade: Sure isn't, sure is not. And, listen, we started off the show talking about wealth inequality and how it isn’t fixed purely by education. I don’t think this should discourage people from pursuing a degree. I do hope that this conversation helps us think critically and analyze fairly common assumptions many of us were raised to believe about how wealth is generated and distributed. Like Richard alluded to, we’re going to have to re-think what “the bag” is for us and what our strategy to secure it, it has to be more than an annual salary. Zach: Right! That’s a soundbite for sure. This is a huge, complex, and yes, frustrating topic, but I believe the starting point is awareness, then thoughtful dialogue, then planning and then action. Ade: Agreed! Anyway - let’s get into our next segment - my favorite things, where we talk about what our favorite things are these days. Zach : Yes! My favorite thing right now has to be this book I’m reading called Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge. It’s so frank and honest. I also have a bias towards aggressive book titles. Book titles that let you know exactly what it's about when you pick it up. I just, I really enjoy that. Also, shout out to Glazed Donuts. Glazed Donuts is a gourmet donut restaurant based in Houston TX. I can tell you they have a great product - donuts, sandwiches, kalaches, juice, allat. Shout out to Richard, Bobby, Edose, TJ and all the members of the Glazed Donut team. Ade: So currently, I have at the absolute top of my list of one true loves, I have this  book called Children of Blood and Bone. It is by Tomi Adeyemi who wrote just an amazing, amazing work. And I'm looking forward to reading more from her. I'm Nigerian, I'm Yoruba, and it's really beautiful to see the Yoruba pantheon of gods incorporated into a literary work. So go check that out if you are interested at all in, well, reading. But also if you're interested at all in any fantasy novels, really really good book. My other favorite thing- I don't know if you've seen I just got a new dog. His name is Benji. Well, technically his name is Maximillian Benjamin Gold the third. There is no first or second, but yeah. We are extra over here around these parts. I call him Benji because I'm the more sane mama. I'm well grounded and down to earth and all of those things. So my beautiful beautiful baby husky is just my newest ray of sunlight and I just, I cannot get enough of him. I've taken 262 pictures and I've posted maybe 3 of them, so like I'm not being obsessive and I'm not being 'that guy' but. He's a gorgeous pup, and I do say so myself. Zach: Dope! Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com.   If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. This is has been Zach. Ade: and I’m Ade Both : peace!9:19 -> 10:18

In this episode, Zach and Latricia discuss effective salary negotiation strategies with experienced Walker Elliot senior recruiter Kyle Mosley. Length: 00:39:55Hosts: Latricia | ZachTRANSCRIPTLatricia: Federal Reserve research shows that Black workers earn less than their white counterparts in a worsening trend that holds even after accounting for differences in age, education, job type and geography.In 1979, the average black man in America earned 80 percent as much per hour as the average white man. By 2016, that shortfall had worsened to 70 percent, according to research from the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which found the divide had also widened for black women.The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (that's 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056. The excerpts I read from Bloomberg and NBC respectively speak to historical inequity that people of color face when it comes to equal pay in the workplace. Considering the nation’s history, this itself should not be a surprise, however the question is what if anything can we do as non-white men do to tip the scales in our favor? This is Latricia. And you’re listening to Living Corporate.Latricia: So, today we’re talking about effective salary negotiation and career management strategies.Zach This is a great topic and I’m glad we’re discussing it. The data you shared at the top of the show was… I’ma be honest, it was like really depressing - BUT it points to the reality of where we are and we can’t move forward without being honest about where we’re starting.Latricia: Right. It is frustrating to see the data and it’s reminder that racial inequity goes beyond the typical talking points that aren’t often explored and understood.Zach: Right. Latricia: I mean, let me read this again-“The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (which is 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056.”Zach: That. is. Crazy. And I know this show is about salary negotiation and career management, but that particular point from those articles reminds me of conversations you and I have had around how so many companies promote Diversity & Inclusion but don’t actually discuss anything beyond gender representation.Latricia: Right we just talked about that - so this is a great example of how that binary view is so problematic. From looking at the analysis from the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and again be reminded that all women aren’t treated equally, having that intersection of race and gender matters if we’re going to have completely authentic conversation around these issues.Zach: Man, I completely agree. So with that in mind, let’s talk about salary negotiation. I think this is a great topic because I’ll speak for my own experiences and what I’ve observed, I feel as if people of color don’t really advocate or encourage the idea of just negotiating. I’ll hear more stuff like “you just need to get in the door and work your way up, you don’t want them to look at you sideways or think that you’re all about the money or whatever, whatever, whatever”. I hear a lot of those talking points from other people of color.Latricia: Right, right. And I’ve heard the same thing. A little bit about me, my background is in public health and I’m in this facebook group with other women in public health, I won’t say the group specifically, but I’ve seen how black women with master’s degrees are working jobs out of their masters for almost minimum wage. And I can’t believe it. And even just the idea of a six figure salary is something that they don’t dream of until they’re at the top of their career, maybe close to retirement, we’re talking like 50. That’s when they’re thinking they’ll be able to get to that six figures. And then I’m sharing stories about kids I know coming out of undergrad within 3 years at some of these firms, and they’re making six figures in 3 years and you’re talking six figures 20 years into your career. And I’m really passionate about this episode and it’s important for us to talk about it. Like I said, in public health, for some reason people are too ashamed to talk about the money because we’re more focused on social justice and healthcare for all and I totally understand that viewpoint, but we can accomplish social justice and still secure the bag. So, I really think that this is going to be an important show.Zach: Right, and I guess I’m a little taken aback to be honest, because you’re talking about these women. And like I said, you and I have had this conversation in private, but you saying it again is just mind-boggling. You’re talking about women who have advanced degrees taking, like, pennies on the dollar. And that’s nuts to me. And it honestly makes me sad but I’m not surprised, like where do you think that comes from? The idea of not negotiating or not negotiating enough? And let me be clear guys, this is not just an issue for black women. The main people I’ve gotten this whole “chill, take it slow, get in the door and grind” talk are actually from male people of color. But where do you think that comes from, Latricia? What are your thoughts there?Latricia: It’s definitely not exclusive to women of color. These realities still create practical, micro level challenges for all of us day-to-day. And like we said from the start, the issues we’re pushing up against are systemic and institutional and we get that… but, I don’t think that means we just say “whelp, racism, woe is me” and don’t at least figure out ways to fight and be more strategic in how we push for that bag you know? Zach: I definitely do. That’s funny “whelp, racism” that should be a meme. “Nothing we can really do.” It’s not funny but it’s kinda funny at the same time. Anyway--Latricia: That’s gonna be the hashtag for the show, by the way.Zach: Anyway, to your point, I definitely do. And like you said, just talking about some of the larger data points, who’s to say that we’re not able to do some things and mobilize at an individual level that could impact the whole thing? There might be things that we can do, just as Latricia, as Zach, as the person listening to this podcast that could actually make a dent in some of these trends. Latricia: Absolutely. And really, it’d be great to have another, more seasoned perspective. Like someone with over 25 years of experience in career coaching, or corporate recruiting, salary negotiations, and strategic relationship building. Not to say this discussion hasn’t been great, but just to have that extra perspective, you know?Zach: Hmm… you mean like our guest for today’s show, Kyle Mosley?Latricia, Zach: Whaaaaa-?[air horns]Latricia: Alright, so next, we’re going to go into an interview with our guest, Kyle Mosely.Zach: So we have Kyle Mosley on the show - Kyle, welcome!Kyle: Hey, thank you for having me, Zach.Zach: Not a problem, we’re really excited to have you here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind just sharing your story?Kyle: Oh definitely. Well, Zach, I’ve been a recruiter for about 25 years here in Houston, Texas. I started off in 1992, so really I’m going into my 26th year pretty soon. So I started as an engineering recruiter, as well as I delved into some executive recruiting. I owned my own recruiting firm for 8 years before getting back into connecting with an old buddy of mine in the recruiting network and I’m still recruiting until this day. It has been a very lucrative field, my wife is a recruiter as well. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be able to share and help other people.Zach: That’s awesome, and congratulations on coming up on 26 years, that’s amazing.Kyle: Yeah long time. Long, long time, man.Zach: So as you know today we're talking about effective salary negotiation. Can you explain from your point of view why salary negotiation matters?Kyle: That’s a good question. Salary negotiations are much like a relationship negotiation. It sets the tone for what relationship you will or will not have with the prospective employer, okay? So ideally everybody wants to have a win-win situation when it comes to salary negotiations. But, we know eventually one side will either concede or compromise or the other side will not. And somebody either will walk away or, if there is the compromise, there still may be some expectations there from one party that didn’t quite get what they want. So when you go into a salary negotiation, you must know that before you finalize the negotiation as well as come to terms with the other party, what are you prepared to be able live with? I think right now, Zach, in this day and age, it’s no different from when I started recruiting, to be honest with you. It’s that everybody expects to get something out of the deal, right? So if you go into the salary negotiation expecting your top ten list to be fulfilled by the employer? I think you’re delusional.Zach: [Laughs]Kyle: [Laughs] And the reason why I’m saying this is let’s be honest, and I always back to the relationship principle - when you and your wife first started dating, there was some give and take. And it’s the same with your employer, or prospective employer. There will be a give and take. Now, your employer may concede certain aspects of the job function or the salary that you’re going to get, but there are going to be some high expectations the higher that salary goes.Zach: Okay.Kyle: And are you willing and ready to be prepared to accept that responsibility, you see? So if you cannot accept that responsibility and take the ownership of what’s going to happen once you become gainfully employed with that prospective employer, you are going to really have a difficult track with that organization.Zach: So to your point though about, I guess, being more practical regarding companies’ expectations the higher the number goes, do you have any examples or stories of how that plays out?Kyle: Over 25 years I’ve been a part of hundreds of salary negotiations, right? The issue comes into play and it always comes back to “who’s going to be bitter about this situation or not?” [Laughs]Zach: [Laughs] ‘Kay.Kyle: and who’s going to have the higher expectation there. So let’s kind of do a reverse engineering type deal - Let’s start from - you’re on board with the employer, but that employer is going to be expecting certain things from you. So before you go into any salary negotiation, you’ve got to be able to do your homework, number one. And also, number two, you have to know your value. If you don’t know your value and you don’t know anything about the employer or where you’re going to work, you’re really going to put yourself at a disadvantage in this whole negotiation scenario. Now when I talk about knowing your value, is the fact that a lot of people believe that ‘okay. I came out of school, went for 4 years, got my bachelor’s’ and let’s say ‘I went to get a master’s degree or MBA or some sort of advanced college degree, right?Zach: Right.Kyle: So therefore when I go onto these career sites like glassdoor or salary.com or monster or careerbuilder, these guys are telling me I’m worth 80k dollars to start off with. And the employer wants to know ‘yeah, you have great credentials when it comes to your educational credentials, but what about when it comes to your real work experience credentials?’ Ok, and the value comes into - if I offer Zach an opportunity to come onto my company XYZ Executive Firm, right? I need to know that Zach from Day 1 is going to enhance my company. Versus Zach is going to be a person extracting from my company.Zach: okay, yeah.Kyle: So then, that’s when I’m saying if you know your value from day 1, you’ve got to be able to articulate this to your prospective employer. That’s a part of the negotiation cycle. Alright so, I have an entry-level kid coming out of one of these big name Texas schools, and he’s an engineer, and he has his PhD in engineering. So then I have a 5 year engineer who has worked in the oil and gas industry, he only has a bachelor’s degree and they’re vying for the same opportunity. So the firm is telling us ‘ Ilike the fact that this guy went to my alma mater. However, I need a guy that from Day 1 can hit the ground running.’ So who does he offer the job to? The one who has the practical, real-world experience. I’m not trying to alarm people who have done well in their educational pursuits, but you cannot say that I’m gonna walk in day 1 expecting x amount of salary if I don’t have practical experience. That’s when knowing your worth comes into play.Zach: ‘KayKyle: What are you willing to concede in order to get a start in the real world? That 1 if you’re entry-level. 2, let’s say you are the 5-year person or 10-year person or 20-year person - You have some achievements that you’ve done in previous jobs, but if you don’t have that information, if you’re just going off of your emotions-- see, you have to take the emotion out of the equation. You have to also articulate what you believe you’re worth.Zach: Okay. So when we’re sitting down and we’re having conversations with the employer, and you’re answering questions and things of that nature, how do you articulate your value?Kyle: Okay that’s where you do your homework. And a lot of doing your homework is what type of questions are you asking in the interview yourself. A lot of people go into an interview believing that they’re sitting down and the employer is going to ask them all of the questions and they’re going to answer questions and that’s it. No, you have to be prepared to be able to ask certain types of questions to the employer like How long has this job been open? How long have you been looking for the right person? What expectations do you have of that person when they walk in the door? 90 days, 120 days, 180 days, a year, whatever. What are those time tables? What are those things that we can quantify that you’re going to expect me to come in with through the door. If you’re a sales person, they’re going to want to see X amount of revenue that you bring into the organization, right?Zach: RightKyle: if you are an engineer or technical professional, they want to see how many projects you work on and complete in X amount of time. If you are an operations professional, how many projects have you brought to the table and how many projects have you been able to find the right people to work on those projects and be able to complete in this particular time frame as well. So those are the types of things that you have to be able to flesh out in the interview process. If you’re not able to flesh values from the employer, how can you negotiate effectively? Because a lot of people believe ‘It should be on my resume, and you should be able to give me what I’m worth’. So what is that? How does that look? How, as an employer, would I be able to know that Mr. Nunn is worth 60 or 80,000 dollars? 80 or 100,000 dollars to my organization? Because what’s going to be my return on my investment in Mr. Nunn?Zach: For those who don’t know, Kyle Mosley is a black man. And Kyle, I’m curious, as a black professional, I’m curious, have you seen any differences when you look at how white and non-white candidates pursue job opportunities?’Kyle: First of all, audience, let me just say this - I’m a Morehouse man. So when I came out of college, I believed I could conquer the world. I’ll be honest with you though, back in 1989, that’s when I graduated, and I believed I could walk into any room, boardroom and get an offer. That’s how i felt. As a matter of fact, when I first got to Houston, I interviewed at 5 companies in one day and got 4 offers. I had confidence, right? So the confidence I had was I did not go into the interviews with fear. When an African-American engineer, not all- this is what I have noticed.Zach: Okay.Kyle: When an AA engineer goes into an interview, they usually are not as well prepared on the company, who’s the interviewer, who’s going to be a part of the interviewing process, understanding what makes the people tick. If you ever have dealt with a recruiter or have a relationship, a recruiter can possibly give you some inside information on the company, what’s happening with the position, how long these people have been looking, if it’s a high turnover type of situation, or if it’s going to be a tough interview, and how you need to present yourself. We do the whole gamut of setting the person up for as much success during the interview versus if you’re winging it by yourself. And you can always use me, I’m just putting it out there, as someone - you’ve probably heard my voice and said ‘alright I need some help, I’m going into this, I don’t have a recruiter’ - call me. I’m open to help people out. What I would suggest is not only building a network with recruiters or with other talent professionals, being able to study who you’re going to speak with and the market. Also go on LinkedIn. Man, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool. I’m just going to use fictional ABC company.Zach: Sure.Kyle: So, sometimes Human Resources is going to say ‘Ok Sally, you have an interview at 8am tomorrow, be here, be early so you can be prepared to fill out paperwork...’ And you hang up the phone. ‘Wow, I got an interview!’ and you’re excited. Zach, who will you meet? Who will be a part of this process?Zach: Yeah.Kyle: Now I’ve seen other engineers say ‘ok that’s great, but when I walk in the door, who do I need to be expecting my arrival? And how long will I be with this person? Who else is going to be a part of this process?’ They ask more questions.Zach: Right.Kyle: They want to be educated. They want to go to the person’s linkind profile, look at let’s say, where the person went to school, how long they’ve been at the company themselves, what type of hobbies they may have, sometimes people have their hobbies on there. Let’s say it’s photography or hunting or whatever it is.Zach: Right.Kyle: Those are things that you could bring up in the interview, okay? Try to find some common ground with the person outside of just being about the interview or things of that nature, right?Zach: Right. Kyle: So those are things that help you build a successful way to get in the door, interview successfully with that person, and ask the right questions- typically I don’t want people to speak about money on the first interview.Zach: Okay.Kyle: You typically do not want to be the one to come out with the money first because you don’t want to look like it’s only about money to you. Most of the time, they’re going to ask you. So if they ask you, yes address it. And address it confidently. Now, you can also say this- let’s say I’m Mr. Interviewer. ‘Well, Zach, how much money do you want for this particular job?”Zach: Right. [laughs]Kyle: ‘How much are you expecting from us here?’‘Well, Mr. Employer that’s a great question. Can I answer this at the end of the interview so I can be able to get an assessment for what you guys are looking for, to make sure that I’m able to answer that correctly and address it properly.’Zach: Right. So I hear what you’re saying, but at the end of the interview, what would you suggest saying?Kyle: Well, you can give them the number you feel that would make you happy. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Kyle: but you say it in such a way - ‘well, based upon what you guys are looking for, Joe, you’ve been looking for 5 months, you’ve been trying to find the right person who can execute this type of project. I have been able to execute this type of project in several occasions, I explained that in the interview. You’ve been looking for someone to come in and work well with the team, with different teams... so based upon what you’re looking for and my background and feeling like I can make a contribution immediately, I want 100,000 dollars.Zach: Straight like that.Kyle: If you already know that this is what the salary range is bearing, right? Zach: Right. Kyle: You need to have a good feeling, and you can ask that question with HR on the phone , say ‘Hey you know I’m just kind of curious. For this type of role, thank you for this interview first, but what’s the salary range for this?’Zach: you know, I think- Of course we live in a capitalistic society, right? Like you have to have money to survive. So I’m really trying, and I appreciate you clarifying, asking directly about the money piece because I’ve also been in situations where people reach out to me and they’ll be really excited and you know, their salary range is like 15-20% under what I’m making right now. And everybody wants to always make more. You know like ‘how much do you want to make?’ ‘I want to make more than I’m making right now whatchyou mean?’ So I think it’s really important if there’s a way that you can kinda get in front of that and in a way, to your point though, that isn’t so money hungry or just makes it seem as though all you care about is money but at the same time, being transparent about where are we with this thing financially.Kyle: Can I just adress one thing, Zach?Zach: You sure can, yes please.Kyle: Okay, notice when the person asked the question, I didn’t just immediately answer the question, but I asked another question. So there are a couple of techniques you can use. Person asks a question? You can answer the question with a question. Answering a question with a question - Kids are great at that, you know? They do the same thing. My son is about to be 13 next week and now he’s into - he’s not just going to give me a straight answer. And What I learned early on in my career in recruiting is that the person who answers the question first usually loses. Okay, so what do I mean by that? I’m glad you asked, Zach.Zach: [ laughs]Kyle: So what I mean by it is the fact that if a person says ‘we’re prepared to offer you 80,000 dollars.’. Now you can answer it ‘great! I accept! I’m ready to go to work!’ Because you must know in the back of your mind thats where you are and what you’re willing to accept. But if you want to negotiate, you may say ‘ hmm.......’ Notice that long, uncomfortable pause.Zach: Yes, I did.Kyle: right, it’s an uncomfortable pause so sometimes the HR professional who may be extending the offer verbally or the hiring manager may extend it verbally, sometimes they just send an email these days which is a horrible, horrible way of presenting an offer to a prospective employee. Yes I said that, Mr. and Mrs. Employer. You guys need to stop that.Zach: [laughs] Amen.Kyle: So you’ve got to be willing to answer the question, follow up and say ‘look, this seems like a great offer, let me study it, let me be able to review it. I may have some questions, will I be able to call you back? What time is good for me to do so? Let’s make an appointment, can we talk at 3 oclock on Monday to be able to go over the offer in detail, so I can be able to make sure I’m on the same page with you.Zach: Okay.Kyle: So you’re going to have them doing what? In the next day or two or the next hours that are coming - ‘did I really extend it the best offer I could’. Now I always ask my employers whenever they extend an offer to any of my candidate, I’ve been taught to ask this from day 1 - is this the best offer you can extend?Zach: I like that.Kyle: Why? Because I’ve got to be honest guys, 80-90% of the time, that’s not the best offer they can extend. Now, is that the best offer they’re going to extend to you? Maybe. But the bottom line is there are other variables. So you want them to be able to explain why they were eager to prepare this offer for you. And listen, don’t get emotional. Don’t get mad and feel you’re being lowballed. Or you’re being underappreciated or feeling discriminated against. You can’t do that. You have to listen first. Listen to what they have to say, say ‘Okay, I’m taking all of this into consideration. Can I get back to you’ Now here’s the fear part. And this is where many of my minority friends come into the fear part. ‘They’re going to rescind the offer. Because I asked to be able to think about it’.Zach: Right.Kyle: No. It’s how you prepare to ask about. If you have an attitude? Yeah, most likely they’re going to rescind the offer. But if you’re trying to make a well educated decision and let them know ‘I’m trying to make the best decision for me and my family’ or ‘for me and my professional career’. Even if you are fearful they’re going to rescind the offer, say something like this- ‘well, I need to see the benefits, can I speak with the human resources professional and go over the benefits first?’Zach: Oh that’s awesome, yeah.Kyle: Then they’re thinking ‘well yeah, it’s just the benefits, yeah sure. Sure sally why don’t you do that, I’ll set you up with Joe Best and you guys can go over that’ you know? How well you frame it is going to make sure you have your house being supported - your career is your house - what type of foundation you lay, what type of framework you put into your home, will it support the weight of everything else that’s going on? And I’m only saying this because I want the audience to be more in a power type of position versus being passive when it comes to this. Once you start your career, guys, you have to be able to say ‘This is what my goals are going to be’.. And every year you have to redefine your goals, you have to please please redefine your goals. Make sure you check on your goals, make sure you’re on point. You also need to have an outside coach or someone to help monitor you with your accountability as well.Alright, what I would say is this, to any professional, it doesn’t matter how young or old you are- make sure you learn as much as you can to platform yourself to your new situation. Build your career, have a solid foundation so that when people, they look at your track record, they see a progression. That’s it right there, a progression. OKay? Because I had a client of mine come to us and say ‘look, I don’t want to see anyone who’s unemployed’. It’s like ‘ok, this is oil and gas country, there may have been some people out of work’. And the guy says ‘yeah I understand that, but for this role, because this person will most likely become a manager within the next year or two and I need to train this person because I’m going to become the VP of the company, I need to see somebody with a career track record that they progressed from one job to the next. So the person wasn’t just engineer day 1, then he went to another company to be the same type of engineer. You know, I want to see the person go to the next step, supervisor, next step department manager, next step this that and the other, right? If the person’s going to be Analyst 1, don’t go to another job where you’re just going to be Analyst 1. If you can bear not to do so, just for the same type of functions, but more money.Zach: Kyle this is great. And I actually think that’s a good place to end it. You know I really appreciate your time, Thank you. Before we let you go - do you have any shoutouts?Kyle: First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has been in my career my 25+ years. Thank you very much for helping me to be highly successful. My wife, of course, and my family, and thank you for this opportunity as well. But most of all, audience, I would like to thank you for listening into what Zach is presenting because this is some good information. And you may say ‘Hey, Mr. Mosely, I think you made some nice points but I don’t quite agree with you’. That’s okay! It's a discussion for you to think about what you want to do with your career and how you’d like to progress with your career. So you can always follow me on twitter @ExecRecruitPro, I’m on twitter there. And if you want to connect with me, my firm that I represent is called Walker Elliott. So you can always email me at kmosley@walker-elliott.com.Zach: And there it is, Kyle Mosely thank you so much again.Kyle: Hey thank you Zach, anytime, let me know and remember - don’t be as good as, be better than.Zach: Amen. Peace, Man.Kyle: Take care, bye.Latricia: And we’re back! Zach that was a great interview. Kyle has a lot of knowledge and I just love his energy.Zach: Yeah for sure. Typically I feel like I’m the bombastic one but he was keeping up with me pretty good. What did you think about his feedback on clearly articulating the number you want and the reason why?Latricia: Yeah, I really enjoyed his practical perspective on things. For example, response methods. So not just blurting out concerns like ‘that’s not enough money!’, but pausing before you speak, and making it a little awkward. That was really funny, but it makes sense because it’s that psychological approach. There were some mind games there and I just really enjoyed that.Zach: Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. I also appreciated that he said how this is his perspective and not Gospel. We definitely enjoyed having him on the show, and we definitely want to have him back.Latricia: Yeah he was great. We need to make sure we drop his contact information so everyone can reach out to him if they have any additional questions or concerns.Zach: For sure! Ok - Well look, let’s get into our next segment - favorite things, where we talk about our favorite things these days. Latricia I’ll let you start.Latricia: Yeah, so my favorite thing right now has to be biking. So, it’s very important that you stay fit. I recently participated in BikeMS in Dallas, it was a 160 mile bike route. Of course I did not do the 160 because I am a beginner. So I did the beginner route, but I love biking, it’s a great way to exercise without feeling like it’s punishment, and I’m hoping that next year I can actually complete the entire course.Zach: Man that’s really cool. And we definitely, definitely wanna stay fit, and I’m really excited actually because I know down the road we want to actually have a whole show about personal wellness. Right? And that’s a big part of it. Physical wellness is a huge part of it. Well, cool. My Favorite thing right now has to be, believe it or not, this Snoop Dogg Gospel album.Listen, y’all--Latricia: Ohh, that album is fire!Zach: It is Fire, it is really really good. I mean, welcome to 2018. Like, I can say that Snoop Dogg, at this point -- and again I didn’t want to be a prisoner of the moment, so I said welcome to 2018--where Snoop Dogg has dropped one of the coldest gospel albums I have ever heard. And it’s been some months now and this album is still heavy in my rotation, especially when folks trying me at work. To be honest.Latricia: [laughs] I actually listen to that song when I’m at work, too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show - Like The Read , make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. My name is Latricia.Zach: and I’m Zach.Latricia, Zach: peace!Mrs. Jackson: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post Production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on twitter, facebook, instagram and living dash corporate dot com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned.

In our first episode, Zach and Ade discuss the topic of impostor syndrome and welcome former fortune 50 executive, Amazon best selling author, and entrepreneur Fenorris Pearson to share his story. Length: 00:47:30Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTZACH: It's 2011 and I just graduated from the University of Houston (go Coogs!). I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed and I'm scared out of my mind. It's my first day and a large retail company an HR Manager and since I'm an "Executive Team Lead", there's a big orientation with all the other "Executive Team Leads in the region. At 20 years old, I'm easily. One of the youngest managers in the company. I look around the room and I see folks way older than me and seemingly much more comfortable in their own skin. I should be excited. I should be thankful. I should be happy. Instead, I only had one statement seared in my mind. First a whisper, then finally, a clear assertion: I don't belong here. This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. ZACH: So today we're talking about imposter syndrome. An hbr article defines it as a collection of feelings of inadequacy that persists despite evidence success. Ade, can you relate to that? ADE: Absolutely. On our website, which you also check out by the way, there is a quick little blurb about the fact that I'm an aspiring software engineer. I knew nothing about code before I started exploring it and I can't tell you the number of times I sat in a room and I was like, OK, I heard the words that came out of your mouth and I'm pretty certainly were in English, but I could not tell you for the life of me what they meant to. There's just this repeated feeling of, I'm in the wrong group. You have you ever had that dream where everybody around you can see you naked and you're not aware until he looked down and realized, oh crap, they're laughing at me. I'm just that repeated feeling of I'm in the wrong room and everybody can see it. Also in like my own job, my current position, I'm always feeling like I'm always hesitant to answer questions even though I know the answer to them because I'm often either the youngest person in the room or the least experience. And I find that despite how confident I might be when it's just me and I know that I've done my homework and I know that I've done all the background necessary, I always find myself like second guessing myself for that one, very brief, split second, and sometimes that's just the difference between somebody else getting the position or somebody else getting an accolade for something that I already knew the answer to. ZACH: That's so real. Speaking for myself, I know that there's been multiple times where I know that I've done the research. I know I've done the homework, I know that I've done everything that's calling for me to do. And yet when I get in those rooms where you have those moments, there's always like the sneaky thing where I'm like, "ah, I really don't this, this whole thing is a sham", right? Like where I feel as if like at any point at any moment, like they're gonna pull back the curtain just kinda like where's it at the end. The one that was a great and powerful Oz. And you look behind the sheet and it's like just a regular dude. And I know for me like that's a genuine feeling of mine, right? I know that this is a relevant topic because even like on Fishbowl, which is like a, for those who don't know, fishbowl is an anonymous posting essentially like think like, um, like twitter, but there's no user names, don't know if it's completely anonymous and even we look across like, you know, when you just look at fish bowl, which I would say the predominant number of users are white folks. They talk about this all the time and like it leads to all types of issues, it's the source of so many different types of stresses and frustrations for them. They'll say things like "I'm really depressed here", and "you know, I really just felt as if anyone was going to find me out", "I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing and everyone else is an expert", and so on and so forth. I mean, I've seen people who are engagement managers and partners and directors, postings like that, right? And so I don't feel like it's necessarily something that's so isolated to me or definitely to you. And I know you've done some research on this. What insights can you share about how common or uncommon the feeling of being an imposter or just how common or uncommon imposter syndrome is? ADE: So we found a research that suggests that up to 70 percent of people, in professional settings report I'm having felt some sort of, um, anxiety related to impostor syndrome. And I know I've done personal research back in my graduate days. I'm on particularly students of color and feelings of inadequacy in school settings, but I didn't really find any that, that spoke to the experiences of underrepresented groups in corporate America. I would venture to say that the present is of those particular groups that are higher for people who are already one of the few where you find yourself being the only black person. The only black woman, the only gay person or the only the only used in the room and I've always wondered what it must be like for people of color to climb any corporate ladder because the higher you go, the less there are of us.ZACH: Straight up. No, you're absolutely right. I mean I definitely agree when you look at the data and I definitely reviewed the research that you shared and thank you for that. It didn't break it down by the "only" one in the room, to the language that you used. It didn't break it down by you know, how present that feeling must be for the only black woman or the only first generation immigrant or like ow much stronger those feelings must be. Because for me, when I think about imposter syndrome, I think about the fact that not only do I feel like this, but there's no one around who looks like me who I can actually have a conversation with either. So I feel like doubly alone, you know what I mean? ADE: Yeah, I do. I mean, it would be great if we had a guest who could speak on their experiences. I mean, they will need to be like, I dunno, executive at a couple of fortune 50 companies they wrote an Amazon bestseller or where does, because that won't be an entrepreneur. ZACH: Oh, you mean like our first guest of the pod, Fenorris Pearson? ADE: Yeah! We're going to get it to her interview with the first guest of our show, Fenorris Pearson. ZACH: Hey, y'all went back and as I said we have for Norris s'mores. Welcome to Living Corporate.!First official show you kicking us off, how does it feel?FENORRIS: It feels great. Feels great, man. Excited. And I'm excited to be a part of this groundbreaking podcast show. ZACH: I appreciate it, man. So you and I have a history. We've, we've worked together. You've been a mentor of mine for years, but for those who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit of your story? Let's just start about how you got into corporate America. FENORRIS: Absolutely. So I come from, I grew up in a family of 10. Seven boys, three girls. Grew up in the projects. I was the first one and they only one want to get a college degree andcertainly our postgraduate degree in business and organizational development. I always aspired, even though it was a pretty good athlete, there was a division one scholarship athlete, student athlete, a lot of success in basketball, I was always inspired to be a businessman. So I, graduated and moved into a corporate America. I always believed in myself, but I know God always has provided grace and favor in my life. So as I entered into corporate America, um, it was one of those things where I had goals, I had certain aspirations to get to. Certain things were more important than anything I wanted to not lose myself, who I am, and who I was as an individual as I aspired and as I transitioned into bigger roles and bigger responsibilities within corporate. So I became, be at the age of 38, the youngest senior vice president, African American executive at that at Motorola. I became a senior vice president of organizational development in Motorola, had over 300 some employees that worked for me around the world. And that was after, at that time I was probably in my... I was 38, but I had probably been with Motorola for about six, seven years. Ended up transitioning from Motorola to go and work for Dale. And I worked for the number two man at Dell who reported to Michael Dell. And that was a huge experience as well too. So before the age of 40, I was a part of two fortune 50 companies that I was a senior level executive and two of the biggest companies in the world before the age of 40. So getting there was an interesting journey to the point where it sparked me to run a book. And the book was called "How to Play the Game at the Top" and that was inspired in my conversation that I had with one of the most senior executives in the world, this guy was the founder and the visionary of a phone called the Razor. Many out there may recall this phone, it was a thin, sleek, they called it the razor and it was one of their iconic phones within this time and I was part of the leadership team, the executive leadership team to develop and put that phone on the market. So am I hitting what you want to talk about? ZACH: Absolutely. This is exactly what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to hear essentially how you got here. And so your story that you're sharing the answers that question. I'm curious if you're talking about these experiences and you're working for these individuals and working at extremely senior levels, was there ever like one specific moment that you realized like, wow, wait a minute, I'm in rarefied air here. Like, this is a special position, like was there a specific moment? FENORRIS: There was two moments that I recall that I'm like, wow, OK, there were two distinct, different learnings from them. The first learning was about me standing up and sticking true to who you are, particularly from a male and from a man's perspective and just about your character, who you are and what you stand for. That story is, there's a, there's a woman tthat I had hired. She was from Kellogg. I brought her on board as a director, but she was extremely qualified and so, and, but she happens to be a minority. She happens to be a female and African American. And her and I at one point were visiting an we were taking on a restructuring of a, of a 14, 15 billion dollar business. And so my job was to begin to do an org diagnostic and assessment of the strengths, the weaknesses, what's working, what's not working, typical diagnostic stuff. And I'm, this young woman, uh, was part of the, um, the team that I would take in and we'll go on and sit down and discuss with an executive. And one particular executive really was not feeling, he time that we had set aside and that we had documented that this is when we're going to meet, this is the nature of this conversation, this is what we're going to be trying to accomplish. What are you doing this time? So it was two of us, myself in this young female who was extremely qualified and competent. And so we get into the office and this man for whatever reasons, in a bad mood. And he is, he apparently had just got back from Europe over London and was tired. But, he was very rude to us and he was extremely rude to me in front of this young African American female and the better, calmer nature of me decided to handle this individual in a professional way because the point, the decision that I had to make was what's more important? Do I continue with trying to move forward with doing this my job? Or do I sit here and let this young female who I just hired a watch me kowtow and belittle myself and lose sense of who I am as a man, forget my job or getting my responsibility just as a man and have this young woman forever look at me as a senior African, "oh, so this is what you have to do in order to be an executive in corporate America." I made a decision at that time that at no point will allow this woman's memory, ah, to be as a man and as an executive, to accepted such disrespect from this senior executive sitting across the table from me. So I said to him, I said to her, I said, I started off. I said, sir, if this is not a good time, um, shall, we can, we can come back and continue this, um, this, uh, this interview. And he was like, no, this is a good time because it's a good time, which doesn't appear to be because I'm the, I'm feeling some tension here. And then so I asked this young woman, I said, "you know, what, could you, could you excuse us?" And I said her name and he said, "no, she can stay here." [Then I said] "As you know, she's, she's my direct report and requesting that she excused herself from this conversation." And so is she excused herself from this conversation. I looked at him, I got up on the edge of my seat and I looked at it across the table and I said to him, I said, "you and I know sir, if you and I were outside of this organization, there is no way you would approach me like that because you would be fearful." I'm six, seven tall, sexy, OK. And he's about six feet. OK. And so, so my whole point to him was that, that, that you wouldn't dare approach me and this manner, and I'm, I'm not going to let this young woman's memory be a of me as a man, as a senior executive that happened to me, a man of color. I'm someone that was just allowing himself to be treated with such disrespect. OK? So, so, so that moment, Zach was a moment that, that changed my career because at this, at this point I was I was a vice president of a business unit, but not of the entire corporation. OK? So at this moment, this man changed his attitude, uh, you know, kind of backpedaled a little bit. I asked for the young woman to come back in. And, uh, we continued to interview. Now, the second aspect that I talked to you about the change when I realized I was in rarefied air, uh, as an, as an executive and Corporate America was when two days later this man calls me up and I'm like, "Oh crap, OK." You know, he's going to be on some, some, some Caucasian man stuff. And he's going to exert his power. He's going to exert his authority and you know what, I may get fired. OK? All right. So cool. So I made the decision at the time, decided to address him and I decided to ask this young woman to, to leave the room that I was willing to suffer any consequence for the sake of keeping my dignity. My mom used to always say, if you don't fall for something, you'll fall for anything. And I wasn't about to fall for having him berating me. And more importantly, have this last impression of this young woman who's at the beginning of her career, I'm thinking that she has to or she has to be a certain way besides just being who she is in order to be successful in corporate America. Little did I know that, uh, when this call came was the call was totally the opposite of what I thought this call was. And so he asked me, he, um, so first of all, his assistant called my assistant and assistant asked me, did I ask my assistant and I have done, was I available? I said yes. I picked up the phone. And um, he said, so interesting conversation Finnaris - he didn't say for "Fenorris" as my name, but he said from "Finnaris". Interesting conversation. So here's what I want to do. I want to, I want you to go on a trip with me. And so I'm like, what do you mean go on a trip? At Motorola, we had all these corporate jets and so we had these corporate jets, and so being on the corporate jet, certainly I've been on commercial airplanes, but I never been on my own private jet. And so, so he asked me to meet him, at our hanger where we keep all our corporate Jets outside of Chicago.And so I met him there and I was lgoing to say, as a lot transpired between the time of him asking me to meet him there and the conversation that we had on the phone. But I'm thinking when I get there, it's going to be a group of people I'm just going off to Sunnyvale, California. Little did I know at the time that he called me. He had just got promoted to be the president, the number two person and pretty much it as running a motor roller or he had just got promoted at that time on the phone call. I didn't know it. So when I get there at a hanger, I'm thinking it's going to be a bunch of the people that's going to be on this jet is just, it turns out it's just him and I. So we get there - and this is a true story. We get on the jet and we're getting ready to take off. So you're, you know, on a jet is, is everything in all kinds of food. So I'm trying to be cool and act Like I've been there before, but at the same time, like this big lobster over there, some shrimp, like, wow, this is nice, you know? I got my leather seats, I got plush leather everywhere, communication equipment, et Cetera, et cetera. So he said, so you're probably wondering why it's just me and you. I said, "absolutely" So we're taking off getting ready to head out to Sunnyvale, California from outside of Chicago. He said, "the reason why I put you on this, I got you on his plane because what want to share with you is something that most of us never talked to you guys about."So two words. "Most of us", meaning mostly Caucasian white men and "you guys", I'm sure everybody that's probably listening to refer it with, uh, you know, Kinda get the meaning of you guys as meaning African Americans or people of color. Never really get a chance to, um, understand how we operate. And so I got on a plane because it's going to be my word against your word. I have no idea how you may react to what I'm about to say to you. But, um, what I want you to know is when I spoke with you and I came at you that I'm at that, um, at that meeting we had, it was all by design. I'm like, why? Wha? What do you mean? "I want to see how you would react to see if you would stand up for yourself. I see so many of you guys out there that are so motivated to be, um, to be, uh, to get ahead, that you will, will allow anything, ah, or had someone to do anything or say anything to you in order to get your stripes. OK? In order to get your where you feel like you belong. Rightfully belonged in. A lot of you guys depend on succession planning. A lot of you guys depend on, uh, the affinity groups like the African American group or the Hispanic Mba group, that those groups are going to allow you all to be in a certain, um, I'd be a part of certain conversations." So as I'm listening to this, I'm like, I can't believe I'm hearing all this. So he's like, "what I wanted you to know is that it was a test" and a little did you know that at that time I saw you got promoted to the president of this business unit, this business. And it happens to be the biggest business unit in Motorola. Motorola was probably about a 55, $60,000,000,000 business. So one of the biggest business units in the world. And I was certain he says he's the number two man in control. And so, um, so he said "what I wanted to do was to see if you will stand up for yourself. I wanted to see because most of you guys to try and aspire in to the next levels, you lose a sense of who you are and what you're all about. Some of you guys even change your voice. You even change your voice." This is interesting coming from, from a white man, this white man, it's assessing and able to have been around enough by people to know. And if we're all real, we all know some people. And just because that to them, just because we change our voice means that we're, we're trying to be like them or not. That's how they accepted. Some of us may talk proper, all right? And so there's nothing wrong with them, but from his perspective, OK. And so this is his thought process, but he continues, "even some of you guys try and change her voice to be in, to feel like you're, you know, you're more accepted with us. What really sparked my interest to have you on my team was that you stood up to me because I'm trying to build a team with this new role that I just got. I don't want yes-people around me and I don't want people to just tell me what they think I want to hear because that doesn't do me any good. "He continues, "I've also been inspired in my life by two African Americans" and I'm like, wow, this is really getting great. Keep in mind we're 30, 40,000 feet up in the air. We're on a plane talking about this is that there's these two African American men. I said, so why me? Why me? He says, "there were two African American men in my life that inspired me, right? What most of my white counterparts don't know is that I grew up poor. I grew up with a single mom. All right? Because of my white male. See me. They see me, they see the wharton school, a business school, they see a harvard, they see all those degrees. But what they don't understand this, that, you know, I had a single mom that raised me. And then so I had two African American men that, that, that, um, uh, sowed some seeds into my life that inspired me to not do bad things because my mom worked all the time. And I was out in the streets getting into trouble and these two African American men on the boxing gym out in New Jersey and they, and they, you know, they just took me in and they gave me, they made me, you help me become more disciplined. And I was so appreciative of that because it wouldn't have been no telling what I would've done." I kind of referred to him as rain man, if anyone ever seen the movie rain man, he was half genius and half crazy. So, so that experience that he had always inspired him to want to do something and give something back to a minority because those two, those two men changed his life to the point where I thought it was bs in down the road, but he even donated money back in New Jersey to named schools a school after this man, after these men. So he put up hundreds of thousands of dollars donated so the school could be named after these two men. So as he's telling me, the reason why we're on the plane is because it's my word against your word and this is stuff that we would never ever talk to you about how, how we do things, how, how things go down, how decisions get made. There are meetings before meetings...that the meetings before the meetings proceed and take decisions are made before we actually get into the meeting that was supposed to be making the decisions and you understand what I'm saying? You guys are never exposed to those things. What I want to know if I want you to, I want you to know someone on my team and what you need to understand that there are consequences for, for that there are, there are good consequences and there are consequences that, that just happened and the light, but corporate. So explain to me what he meant by that is that, for example, he talked to me about the difference between mentors and sponsors. He said, "what I'm offering you is not to be your mentor, but to be your sponsor." A mentor is someone is going to provide coaching, provide guidance, helped you prepare for an interview. A sponsor is someone that's going to say, "that's my guy."I'll give you give you an example. When I left Motorola and went to Dell, typically you would go through an interview process where - particularly people of color - you're going to meet, you're going to go two or three times. I interviewed one time and I interviewed with Michael Dell and no one else and my salary, my sign on bonus. I had a sign on bonus about $300,000. I had a golf membership at a country club out at the place that we built is built the place outside of Texas Dell headquarters since in round rock, Texas and build a 10,000 square-foot home out in Lake Travis. I had everything. OK. But my point here is not on the material things. My point is under the process or how they do stuff and trying to help people understand the difference between the mentor and sponsor. The fact that he sponsored me, only have to see one person. I didn't have to go through all of these interviews, all of these parading me then come back here, come back for the next round of interviews.That's the process that they typically take us through. But how they do, if they bring someone in that they want, they don't have to go through that process. They don't have to go through. And if they do go through several interviews, you can bet it's just, it's just a formality there justtsomething to make it look like it's a competition for the job, but they've already made a decision. That's the difference between mentors and sponsors. And he wanted me to Kinda understand that he was offering me something totally different from what I ever even thought about. I always thought the name of the game was mentorship, right? I always thought the name of the game was, if you know, if you work, you and I, you know, I was smart. I thought if I work harder and smarter than you, I'm going to get promoted. That's not how the game works. We could be the smartest, we could. We know we work work harder because are who we are and how we were raised, but that's still, it's not a deciding factor. And then, so he talked to me about the difference between the electorial vote in the popular vote. I want you to understand that a lot of minorities spend their time on focusing on the popular vote in the popular vote means a, if you think about the election many, many years ago with Al Gore and President Bush, at that time, first time the whole thing ever came into play is when Al Gore won the popular vote, but he did not become the president of this country due to electorial vote, which is a lot less votes than the popular vote. OK? So his whole point from a business perspective is that sometimes we get so concerned on trying to please and make everybody happy, but when you take a step back and look at your career, there's only one or two people that could really influence and impact your career to getting it to where you want to go. And that's what he called instilled like electoral votes. And he said, what I'm offering you is an electoral vote, not a popular vote. So the question that you asked early on was, what were some of the events that that allowed me to know that I was in rarefied air? One, no pun intended, been 30, 40,000 feet up in a private jet. I'm certainly up and rarified air, but a meaningful perspective from a, from a development perspective, hearing how he explained and what he shared. And they said there like they're the reason why I'm sharing this with you on this claim this because you can't record what I'm saying. You can't. If you don't, if you think this is racist or whatever, you can't go and call a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. He sent these names for real. I'm serious because it's just my word against your word and it gives you a word and one of the things that you should understand is never, ever dance between two big two elephants. Because if you dance between two elephants, you might get crushed. And what he was saying is, is that you know, if you choose to, if you choose to make this a big deal, then it's going to be my word against your word and I have my word and as I have a whole corporate hr machine that's behind me, and you may, you may get your impact. You may get your story out, but at the same time it's my word against your word and I think we could understand how that would end so that those were two major events that changed my mind. That made me really know that while I was in rarefied air. Amazing stories that has really guided the way that I lead and the way that I now transition from corporate world to a entrepreneur world where I'm the CEO of a company called pursuit of hope. This is a whole different background from, um, from the corporate world and being executive into an entrepreneur and that's a whole different... a segment that you can do down the road since transitioning from corporate to be an entrepreneur and just huge differences there. And how success in one area doesn't necessarily equate to an another area is totally different thought process and that's something that I'm more than willing to share about my experiences. ZACH: Those are amazing stories. I have like two more questions for you. So you know that we're talking about my imposter syndrome today. Essentially that's just a feeling of inadequacy or that you're somehow out of place and a space that everyone else from your perspective clearly is rightfully placed in. So did you ever feel that way? Do you ever. Did you ever feel like you had to battle imposter syndrome? And if you did ever feel that way, how did you manage those anxieties and kind of keep that stuff at bay? FENORRIS: So I think that's a great question. First of all, to be totally candid with you, that question goes back to how I was raised. I never felt like just because I was an African American man that I was less than or better than anybody because my mom always raised me up...my mom used to refer to me and my older brother that grew up together as - and it sounds corny - but, she would refer to us as my Kennedy boys. And so I'm like, my mom is my mom thinking me like the Kennedy Boys. And this is me. I was like eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. My mom, because I knew who the Kennedy boys were talking about, Robert and about John. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about some very successful people. So my mom said that in her own way to make us feel good about ourselves and to make us, you know, where our self esteem about ourselves and she always taught us that we wasn't a better or worse than anyone. And so those, that mindset, um, traveled with me in every aspect of my life and every aspect of the involvement in my career now to proof of that is when I got tested and I didn't know I was getting tested as I told you all about this story because what he had observed was a, I'm a person who was truth in it to themselves and a person who had a tremendous amount of influence in the organization that, uand we'll talk about a skillset. I didn't at that time when this man talk to me with this young African American woman in his office, I didn't have to know the, the corporate a title than the big corporate type of foot on time for the business unit did, but not for the entire corporation. And what I learned that is that you don't always have to have the power or title that title in the organization in order to have the biggest impact on the organization. Because of the fact that I stay true to who I am, who I was, and that I didn't compromise and if I can give the people who are, are aspiring and trying to, um, you know, in a corporate position, they're struggling, they don't know where they're not promoting a shameless plug here, mark my book, "How to Play the Game at the Top", a book that's on Amazon, where people can go and read more new and pretty much you're going to hear the same stuff in it, but a lot more detail about what I'm talking to you guys about your career now and how to progress further, which really comes down to being true to yourself. Never ever compromise who you are just for money or just for to get a title or just to fit in, because it may pay off in the short term, but the thing that I can do and look back at all of myexperience in corporate and say that I'm very, very pleased with the the decisions that I made and why I made them because there's nothing worse than feeling like you gained something at the expense of losing something. ZACH: Man, that's amazing and this is really powerful Fenorris. I really appreciate this man. I was going to ask if you had any plugs but you already plugged your book to Amazon bestseller, "How to Play the Game at the Top". And I wanted to reinforce that because as you know, I read it some years ago. Great read. We will have the things that we've referenced in this conversation on during this podcast. We will have all those things and make sure you actually look at our descriptions. You will see a link for how to play the game at the top in the description. So you can go ahead and check that out as well. Fenorris, I just want to thank you for joining us today. FENORRIS: Hey, thank you guys for being able to allow me to be a part of this. I really believe it's a groundbreaking show. More importantly is just it just thankful to you guys to want to put together a podcast like this here and so you guys could be doing a lot of other other things besides trying to educate andmake people aware of the challenge, challenges and opportunities as they grow in starting career. And so I thank God for you guys having an vision to put together a program like this. ZACH: Man. Thank you for Fenorris. We're going to go ahead and take a break. We come back, we'll have it back in the studio. We'll talk about this discussion and then we'll continue on with the show. ADE: That was a dope interview. ZACH: Yeah, I liked it. ADE: Yeah. In my little story at first I thought to myself like, wow, this is a really, really unique story. Like a great journey. Yet, at the same time, so much of it resonated with my own experiences, like even now in the earliest stages of my career, you know? ZACH: Absolutely. I was glad he was able to make the show really, really interesting stories and I hope he comes back. ADE: For sure. Um, OK. So now let's get into our next segment, which, you know, I kind of enjoy. It's called favorite things. It's where we talk about, um, what our favorite things are these days we can, you know, big up yourself a bit. ZACH: Absolutely. OK, well let's go ahead and get started. I'll start first. You didn't invite me to start, but I will start.ADE: The floor is yours.ZACH: Thank you. OK, so yes. So my favorite thing right now has to be mumbo sauce is now listen. So for those who don't know, for all of my southern gentleman and uh, and women in the audience listening, listen, mumbo sauce is like this sweet spicy sauce that originates out of the DMV and yeah. So, um, our favorite cousin, our favorite big cousin, favorite Auntie, she was on First We Feast, which was hot ones hosted by Sean Evans. Shout out Sean Evans, hot ones. All y'all. Anyway, she's on the show and one of the first things she eats is covered in this stuff called mumbo sauce. And so I'm, I'm taking, I'm tasting, I'm, I'm fast forwarding - first off all I did not taste the mumbo sauce - this is when I first heard about the mumbo sauce. Let's be clear. Then I was like, eh, maybe, I don't really know. Whatever, whatever. Cool. So then you know, because the feds always watching on facebook and I see a mumbo sauce and I'm like, what is going on with his mumbo sauce? So then I see a Facebook ad and it literally said, "Taraji P. Henson endorses mumbo sauce on hot ones with Sean Evans. You like Taraji P .Henson, you should buy mumbo sauce. I was like, golly. I mean I was kind of creeped up that it was so on point and that it clearly, it was watching my activities... but at the same time, I was like, well sang. I mean you, you are right. I, I did like Taraji p Henson in that interview and I am a Taraji P Henson Fan. I do like SOS. Let me buy some. So I bought three bottles of this mumbo sauce. I know, right? And I'm on my last bottle, but listen.. Don't judge me - well you can judge me. That's fine. It's delicious. I actually will put up with the scrutiny. It's great. I put it on everything. Anyway, so I got a two for one. So my other favorite thing right now is this upcoming captain America Comic. I love comic books and so there's a new run starting with captain America and it's been written by the Don Ta-nehisi Coates. So those are like my favorite thing is right now. What's up? What you about it? ADE: So first of all it's Ta-nehisi Coates. I just wanted to hit you with the. Well actually, ZACH: Wow. I'm Embarrassed.ADE: I can't let you be out here just like meg league his name. You know ZACH: that's true though because he is a hero of mine. I don't even know how to say his name.. It was a great point. . ADE: All right. Um, that's random by the way. I want you to know that that's like the weirdest. "Oh yeah. By the way, I'm shouting out mumbo sauce for the week." So my two favorite things this week and I don't know why we're sticking to two, but it's probably for the best because I'm indecisive. So currently actually, literally, you know how when you're on the Internet and be like, what's to the left or the right of you to the left of me is this book, I don't know if he can hear it. It's called a children of blood and bone by telling me it. I mean, um, and as a voracious reader, as a long-time lover of the written word, um, I can tell you right now that she could have all of my clients, like she can literally have all of them every last day. Um, you know, why? Because this will, I can write her booty off. I'm reluctant to even say, booty. ZACH: This is a clean show. So keeping going. ADE: Yes my mom may be listening to this. But yeah, like if you're looking for a new literary suggestion, if you need a new book, if you are a consultant or you're traveling for days out the week and you need a book to take on the plane with you, it might really only last you depending on how fast you read two trips, but it's absolutely worth it. I think my second favorite thing is I've been sick this week and anyone who knows me actually noticed that I have a deep and abiding love of, but it's just like sky rocketed to the top of last of the favorite things this week because my word is good but it is so good and I was down for the count but you know, fa. And since your tea really held me down so it doesn't have to things for the week. ZACH: Do you have any shout outs? ADE: Yes. Um, so shout out to us first of all because I feel like we're dope. We put an amazing thing together and even if you know, this is just us talking to ourselves. This is still like one of the dopest projects had been on. Yeah, we put this whole thing together in less than a month. Bask and how amazing that is. ZACH: I feel the exact same way that I was going to be my shout out to like, shout out to us straight up. We've got a team of five and like they're all going to be on the show. They're all gonna be, they're all leading and participating in like heavily involved because it takes a lot to get this machine up and going. It's all. ADE: One more shout out, one more shout out. I have a new nephew in my life, um, because name is Haleem and he is the absolute, like the brightest star in the night sky right now and I'm just so proud and so happy to have him at the moment. ZACH: No, no, that's dope. That's dope. You know what, in fact, let me go ahead and shut out my nieces and nephews. We can go ahead and put them on a shout out to my nephew Aaron and then shout out to my niece Alayna. They are absolutely wonderful. So, uh, yes, that will actually be the Hashtag for this show. #auntieuncle swag. So thank you all for joining us. My name is Zach.ADE: And I'm Ade.BOTH: Peace.

In our teaser, Zach, Ola and Ade introduce the Living Corporate Podcast, where we will be discussing topics relevant to black and brown people groups within the Corporate American context. Length: 00:02:16Hosts: Ola | Ade | Zach