On the seventy-ninth installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield brings us another career tip, this time talking about when to take jobs off your resume. Remember, there's no one right way to write a resume, but the purpose of one is to show the employer how you can help them solve their problem. Drop your attachment to certain parts of experience if they don't fit with where you're trying to go and keep them if they do and simply focus on how you can make yourself relevant!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week let's talk about when to take jobs off your resume.Many of us have heard the rule that after 10 - 15 years, you should take experiences off of your resume. I used to give this advice too, but now I don't think the experience you should include on your resume is as cut and dry as that rule tries to make it out to be. In conversations with my clients, I focus less on the time limit and more on relevancy. When we are writing our resumes, we want to focus on providing the most relevant experience and skills in the shortest amount of time.So during my intake calls when we get to those experiences that are 10 - 15 years back, I always ask, "Does this role contain a relevant skillset not already represented by a more recent job?" If the answer is no, then we discuss either completely removing it from the resume or putting it an additional experience section with only the job title, company name, and dates if we still want to showcase the background or career trajectory. But if the answer is yes, then we have a conversation on what skill sets that role showcases that differ from recent experiences, and we keep ONLY that portion and ditch the rest.Now, some people, resume writers and career coaches included, don't necessarily like this advice. They may believe this begins to create gaps in the resume, and to that, I would say that completely removing anything 10 -15 years back already creates a large gap between college and the first employment experience listed. They'll also say if the skillset is 10 -15 years back that it is probably outdated to which I would say if that's the only place that represents the skillset, then why risk the chance of not getting the job because you omitted it?Remember, there's no one right way to write a resume, but the purpose of your resume is to show the employer how you can help them solve their problem. So drop your attachment to certain parts of experience if they don't fit with where you're trying to go and keep them if they do. Simply focus on how you can make yourself relevant.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach chats with Dr. Lily Jampol on this special Saturday episode themed around allyship and privilege. She and Zach discuss the diversity, equity and inclusion space at length, and Dr. Jampol shares her perspective on both where the industry is going and what the next step is to really take it to the next level. Check the links in the show notes to check out the work of several prominent Black authors and thought leaders!Connect with Dr. Jampol on LinkedIn and Twitter.Dive into the work of Stephanie Jones-Rogers, Ibram Kendi, Rachel Cargle, and Ijeoma Oluo.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we're back. Yes, we're back from outer space, having another great conversation with someone who is passionate about amplifying Black and brown voices at work, 'cause that's what we do, right? Like, we exist to highlight and center underrepresented perspectives and experiences and identities at work, and we've been around, shoot, now going on a couple--like, it's almost up to year 2 now, and I'm just really thankful for all the support. So shout-out to all of our listeners. Shout-out to the folks working 9-to-5. Shout-out to the people working 10-to-9s. You know, whatever y'all working, man, shout-out to y'all. And then of course shout-out to our allies, you know? Our Buckys, our White Wolves. So, you know, for those who are not Marvel fans, Bucky was Captain America's sidekick, and then when he had to be rehabilitated because he was brainwashed by Dr. Zemo, Baron Zemo, he then went to Wakanda, and when he went to Wakanda he became "the White Wolf." And, you know, Wakanda's all Africa. You know, it's all a bunch of African people, 'cause it's in Africa so it's all Black people. But he was the White Wolf. Like, he was trusted. You know, he was a true ally of the people. So all of that to say we also engage allies on Living Corporate, right? So this is not, like, exclusive, right? Like, if you are less melanated, then as long as you're down for the Wakandans, hey, we're down for y'all, right? So with that being said, we have a really dope guest - Dr. Lily Jampol. Dr. Lily Jampol helps organizations solve difficult challenges and ensure that their workplaces are happy, productive, and equitable. She primarily works with the diversity, equity and inclusion firm ReadySet based in Oakland, California, and a people scientist and strategist. Dr. Jampol is also a frequent speaker and writes on diversity and inclusion from a behavioral science data perspective. She believes that one of the keys to moving forward is understanding how people think, behave, and relate. Lily, Dr. Jampol, Dr. L, Dr. J, what's up? How are you doing?Dr. Jampol: I'm doing pretty great. I'm almost always doing great. I'm feeling super fulfilled by my work right now, and I'm generally speaking a pretty positive person, so it's all good. I feel like it's a rare thing when the anger and disappointment that you feel about the world and society can be channeled into your actual day job, so I'm constantly grateful for that and all of the other wonderful things in my life.Zach: Man, you know, and you've been a few different places, right? So I know that you're at ReadySet today, but you've had a journey, right? Like, can we talk about your background and how you got into this world of diversity and inclusion?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, definitely. Well, so I've always been a pretty curious person about other people and society in general. I've also taken some non-traditional routes in my career trying to follow that curiosity, and in terms of background I actually grew up in an eco hotel in Costa Rica, and that was a really interesting experience for me. It was the first time that I really saw inequality, and yet also I had to confront how my white privilege played out there even while I felt like an outsider myself. So growing up in a different country and also a hotel made me super curious about just how people relate to each other, how differences play out in society. I also came from a pretty social justice family since they're all eco warriors, so I knew I wanted to do something social justice related. I started off in political science, but I ended up getting my Ph.D in social psychology where I was examining human behavior, specifically gender bias in organizations. So for a while I thought I was gonna be in academia, and I spent 3 years as a professor in London at a business school, but while I really enjoyed my research, I really was also feeling like I could make a bigger impact working to implement that research in organizations, and this all came to a head when I was going through the middle of a pretty nasty divorce and I was like, "Screw everything," so I quit my 10-year [track?] career and joined a tech startup here in Silicon Valley, and after a few months there I realized I wasn't really working as much on issues that felt really socially important, so I transitioned to working with ReadySet, my amazing team, doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I've done serious amounts of learning since then. So I came into this work thinking that I was an expert in my field, and I didn't realize how much of a novice I was when it came to actual equity issues. First of all, I barely knew or used the term "intersectional feminism" before starting this work in the field. So part of what I love about my job now is how much I've been able to grow as a person and also help others who are just beginning their journey to be able to do so too, and I really do have my colleagues and my network to thank for that.Zach: That's incredible. And, you know, you talk about your privilege and you talk about, like, you coming to learn things and experience things on your own and develop certain levels of fluency and awareness. I couldn't help but notice myself that you're white, you know what I'm saying? Like, it leapt out to me. [laughs] I'm curious to know about how your whiteness intersects with the work that you do within behavioral and data science and, like, you know, when I say how it intersects with the work you do, like, how does it impact how you show up, and what observations do you have in, like, being in this space?Dr. Jampol: Yes. Right, I am very white, or unmelanated as you put before. I'm literally half-Viking, half-Ashkenazi Jew. Zach: That's incredible actually. Shout-out to both the Ashkenazi Jews and the Vikings. That's--wow.Dr. Jampol: My mom is basically, like, 100% Swedish, Norwegian, so yeah, definitely have some Viking blood in the background. My whiteness really does impact my work in a pretty big way. So when I started my Ph.D I was actually focusing on behavioral economics, and the reason that I'm telling you this background is because I want to explain how my behavior and my work has changed since then. So when I was doing behavioral economics, in that field it's mostly dominated by white men, still is, and when I was doing that work I always felt like I had to prove myself to be taken seriously, and when I started transitioning into looking at gender biases, I was told to stop doing that work by many of my advisers and colleagues because I was told no one was gonna take me seriously as a scientist. Now, of course that made me want to do the work more, but now that I'm a white person and I have a data and quantitative background, I realize how privileged that identity is. So I can come into a room with a bunch of tech executives and lay my Ph.D out on the table, proverbially speaking, talk data with them, and they give me the validation and respect that many of my colleagues who have been doing this work much longer than me and who are not white just don't get, and it actually impacts the way that I play a role on my team, and for good reason. So for example, we had a company who we were working with who were just not taking the CEO of my company seriously, who is a Black woman, and she has a JD from Harvard. She worked as an international human rights lawyer. She's the CEO of her own successful company, has been doing this work for, you know, 5 times as long as I have. You put me in the room, and I had only been working in this space for a few months, and their attitudes just totally changed. They went from, you know, defensive and aggressive to, "Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, this sounds great. What do we need to do to get there?" Zach: Can I pause right there though? 'Cause, like, I'm so--I'm so triggered. [laughs]Dr. Jampol: Okay. I'm sorry about triggering you. [laughs]Zach: No, no, it's not your fault. [laughs] So the reason why I'm pausing is because I think--and we haven't done these studies because of white fragility and the fact that I think academia is still, like, very much so, like, a white space, but I wish--and maybe we have and I just haven't seen it, but I'd love to see a behavioral study done on how the majority tends to treat Black and brown professionals with a certain level of hostility and defensiveness that they don't treat white counterparts, right? Like, your earlier point about the CEOs, like, why--and I've been in situations where I've been on the receiving end or I've observed. Like, "Why are you talking to me like I'm your enemy or like I'm trying to get you?" Like, "Why are we not able to have, like, an actual dialogue?" Like, "Why does everything feel really transactional and, like, a zero-sum game in this conversation," you know what I mean?Dr. Jampol: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I totally do, and I think, you know, you're totally reading my mind about wanting to do some behavioral studies on this stuff. I think about this all the time too, and I think you're absolutely right. There is quite a bit of evidence showing that people from underrepresented backgrounds in different domains, including women, have to prove it again and again and again and give more and more legitimacy in order to be taken seriously, but I do think that the aggression and hostility is an interesting component of this, and I have a lot of theories about why, and I think--and I don't want to go too down the rabbit hole, but you got me excited about this topic, so just for a second... so [a study] I've been really playing around with in my head is the entitlement to the good will and patience of people of color towards white people to learn and to get to where they need to be, and I'm talking about not just, you know, average people, but well-meaning, progressive, liberal people who still believe that it is your work, people of color's work, to be able to get them to where they need to be. And it is my job, and it is our jobs as, you know, a company, but I would love to see research showing that there's an entitled expectation to how we're supposed to be doing this work for people and also putting up with them when they don't want to do it and don't want to, you know, put their 50% of the work in. So there's lots of other studies I want to go over, but that's just one I've been playing around with as well, that entitlement aspect.Zach: Yes. So I'm not trying to cut you off, 'cause you're telling a story, so I'm not trying to--ironically--mansplain and jump all over your stuff, so please continue with the story. It's just that you said that and I was like, "Oh," and I wanted to just ask the question. So please continue. So you come into this space. You're relatively new. The CEO, the person who actually built the company and has the education from a fairly elite, recognized institution is not as well-received, but you come in and the whole vibe changes.Dr. Jampol: Yes. The whole vibe changes. Not only that, but we just have more--you know, an easier time getting [?] and actually comvincing people, but I think I also want to talk about one interesting other thing that I observed, and this is something that I've observed in a couple of different companies and situations in that a lot of the people who do this, I think that we have this idea of what that person looks like, the CEO of a company or who sits on the board of a company. White women are very much involved in the same process, and in fact I see this pattern from white women almost more than I see it from white men, and I think there's something interesting in that.Zach: Wait a minute. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Dr. Jampol: I think that often we see white women putting up the most resistance to doing diversity, equity and inclusion work within companies, especially if they've already achieved a position of power. And, you know, there's a litany of reasons why that happens. A lot of them are psychological. A lot of them are just where women sit in the power hierarchy of society. So they sit in the middle, not at the highest point--which is where white men sit--and not at the lowest point, which is where a lot of people of color sit in terms of how much power and influence you have. So they have a lot to lose, and a lot of the ways that women have managed to achieve a semblance of power is by either mimicking white men or upholding the very systems of oppression that have, well, essentially benefitted them for a long time, but also benefitted white men. So there's a lot to lose by getting rid of that power, but there's also a kind of "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" attitude of "Well, I got here, so why does anyone else need help to do so?" But I do think that there's something greater in terms of how white women have benefitted from systems of oppression compared to women of color and men of color.Zach: And I wonder, like--and so, you know, I am not a Ph.D, so when I say things like, "You know, I haven't seen this," I'm not trying to say that it doesn't exist. What research or what, like, written work would you recommend, if any, that explores, like, the historicity of white women and their relation to systems of power in America?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a great question, and I also want to, before I continue, just say that I don't have, you know, quantitative research to back that observation up. It's an observation I made. However, this idea that white women uphold systems of oppression can be seen in lots of other data that we have. For example, who is the group that voted Donald Trump into power? We have lots of other data to show that white women are upholding systems of oppression, but I think, you know, we can go back and look at historical data about how this happened. Stephanie Jones Rogers is an amazing academic who wrote about how white women were complicit in slavery, essentially, in the American South, and it really starts there. You know, it starts in other areas of colonialism, but there's quite a few academics who are writing about this, and there's also thought leaders who are writing about this as well. Rachel Cargle. Robin DiAngelo. I mean, she's a white author, but she's written extensively on white fragility. Ibram Kendi, Ijeoma Oluo. Those are all folks that I think are really interesting to read and have [?] a lot more on this than I have.Zach: And again, like, just shout-out to you for, like, highlighting Black authors and other thought leaders in your quick list that you just, like, sprouted off like it was nothing. That's super dope. So let's talk about that then, right? We've talked a little bit about how we've seen, like, power abused or taken advantage of, but I'd like to talk a little bit more about what, like, effective allyship looks like, right? And we've had a few of these types of calls, like, these conversations on Living Corporate. I don't think that, like, they ever get old. I think it's really important that we have advocates and aspirational allies on this platform, because there are a variety of people that listen to Living Corporate. A lot of diversity and inclusion professionals listen to Living Corporate, and I can say that I just--I don't know if I've even seen a lot of programming that is really explicit on what it means to build inclusive behaviors as a leader. I don't know if I've seen training that's really, really intentional in building that fluency or building that capability or that muscle, whatever word you want to use, and so I'm really curious from your perspective, what do you think it looks like, specific to white women, what does effective allyship look like in the workplace? Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's such a great question, and I think we're talking about allyship more and more, and it's something that we talk a lot about with the organizations we work with. I think that first of all--let's talk about intentions for a minute. I think I feel sometimes when I talk about white women that there is this assumption that there is an intention to be racist, for example. I don't think that that's necessarily true. I think there's a strong desire to be good people, and I think that, you know, women, having been marginalized themselves, feel like they have been victims of that marginalization as well. The problem is that strong desire to be a good person, when they are told that their actions are contributing to racism or they are complicit in a system of white supremacy, it makes us feel threatened that our own progressiveness, our own willingness to help others, our idealism of ourselves as good people is super threatened, and that makes us shut down, and I think that's because we've been--and I'm not the first person to say this obviously as lots of people have written on it, it's what we teach--we have not had to grow up and experience the discomfort of having to talk about race and racism and systems of oppression. And so for a lot of people this is the first time they're even hearing about it. So the first thing is just being comfortable with that discomfort of understanding that it's not about you, it's about systems of oppression that you still might have behaviors and even attitudes that are formed through your experience with the world, with culture, with television, with radio. The way that we learn how to stereotype is just ingrained in our society, and so we have to start slowing down and be able to recognize how we actually are contributing to that. We have to also be careful in terms of allyship with how we show up. So I'm always trying to be conscientious about not taking up too much space and making sure that I'm amplifying non-white voices and work and also listening more than I talk. I think this has been a big change for me over the last couple years. This is also part of the framework that we teach in our Ally Skills workshop, which I co-facilitate with my colleagues Willie Jackson and Kim Tran at ReadySet, and it's really about moving from passive allyship to active allyship, what we call being an accomplice. So it means centering impacted communities rather than yourself, owning your impact when you hurt somebody's feelings over your intentions to not have hurt their feelings, listening and learning and expressing humility and amplifying other people's voices, and it's also about how we demonstrate growth and are humble when we mess up, and we will mess up. So I myself am trying to be a better accomplice in this work. I think in terms of D&I practitioners there's a huge place for white women who are working in this space, and I know a lot of white women are trying to figure out what exactly their role is. I think one of our roles is to be able to do some of the emotional work and the burden of carrying some of these conversations and some of this work forward so that it's not only people of color who are doing it. So there's also--you know, my white privilege as a white person, I can get angry and I can push back in a way that doesn't have the same repercussions for my Black colleagues. I can lend my voice or carry conversations that are triggering or exhausting for people of color to do, for example, convincing white women that they play a part in white supremacy or that feminism has to be intersectional for it to work. So I think there's very specific roles that we can play that can help us be better allies, both personally and to other folks in the DEI space. Zach: And, you know, it's just such an interesting dynamic too when you talk about, like--so, like, the things you're talking about around feeling threatened or feeling attacked or feeling just various levels of insecurity, like, it's really interesting as it intersects with having white women managers, right? [both laugh] Or then, like, being even more complex is having a white woman manager who is, like, supposed to be the czar of diversity and inclusion, and you're working for this person and it's like, "Okay. I recognize that you've been invited to these very, like, exclusive white spaces to sit on a panel and, you know, to word diarrhea on diversity and inclusion and, like, the latest thing that you read in Cosmopolitan, but I also have insights and life experience, and those life experiences mean things, and I know things by merit of my life that you may not understand or you just frankly don't even think about." And it's just interesting to me when I think about, like, this dynamic of, like, the corporatized diversity and inclusion space and how you have often times white women in these positions of leadership in these groups, and they themselves are either--I mean, everybody has blind spots, so it's not, like, even this huge knock. It's not, like, this huge indictment. It's just the reality of you're trying to lead a space that it's critical for you to be empathetic, coachable and humble in, and if you think that you have nothing to learn or you think that everyone around you, especially people of color, Black and brown folks, are just there to do your bidding, like, that is just cruelly ironic, you know what I mean? But I see that though. I see that often, like, in these corporate spaces, where, you know, Whoever is, like, the leader of D&I, and it's like, "Why are you here?" And I know there's tension, right? Like, I've had conversations with Jennifer Brown, and she's talked about, like--I'm not gonna say she's on one side and I'm on the other, but my impression of our conversation was, like, "I feel like we're--" We being white D&I professionals--"are constantly questioned and have to really show and prove that we should be here," and I'm kind of like, "Well, yeah. You should though." I mean, I'm not trying to be, like, a jerk. It's just like, "You should. You should show and prove that you should be here, because we don't have a historical track record of--" Like, I don't know of a model, like, a person, a white diversity and inclusion, one diversity and inclusion that is like, "Wow, this is the model." And I've asked other--you know what I mean? I know I'm kind of ranting, but I'm asking--Dr. Jampol: No, no. I hear you, I do, and I actually really agree with you. It's something that I've thought a lot about, even as I'm thinking about my own career trajectory, right? Because I want to help do this work, but I don't want to occupy a position of power first of all on my own as a white person, like, I don't think I should be the head of diversity and inclusion at a company, at least not right now in this societal context, because I think context really matters too, and I think we often don't think about that. We think in terms of meritocracy, you know, about, like, "Who has worked hard and who deserves to be here and who doesn't?" But we're talking about representation. We're talking about justice. We're talking about repairing harms that have been done over hundreds of years in our society, and right now diversity and inclusion is often one of the places where people of color can have influence and power within a company. And it's important too because--well, I'm not explaining it to you, because I'm hearing all of your points and I'm just saying that I agree with you, because I think you have to be in a position of taking a step back and learning, and I think you can find your niche as a white person in this area--I mean, mine is behavioral science data right now. I'm also still trying to figure that out, but I'm also really focused on learning, 'cause if we're not doing that personal learning, we're just repeating those same things that have happened throughout history, and we're repeating those hierarchies and we're maintaining that status quo. So yes, short, TL;DR, you're right. [both laugh]Zach: It's interesting too. I want to talk about your work, right? I think something we first talked about, like, when we first did an introductory call is I'm curious about what does it look like because--so, like, I've met people who are in D&I and, like, they purport themselves to be, like, data strategists, right? But they don't actually have any actual context--and I'm kind of jumping ahead, because this is a part of a question I'm gonna ask you in a little bit, but they don't really have, like, the empathy or the, like, fluency and, like, understanding of American history that would then inform how they do their work. So in my mind, and this is based off just my very limited experience, right, is it feels to melike you're almost sitting in two camps. Like, you're sitting in, like, this hard, quantitative, scientific, measured space, but then you're also--because of your own background you still do have a passion around, like, connecting inclusion and diversity and equity with justice and the historical foundations of the work itself, as well as the work and writings of Black and brown women and activists and people who came before you, right? So, like, do you feel a duality there? Do you feel as if, like, you're uniquely placed, or do you feel as if your profile is common within, like, this data science and behavioral space that you work in?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a great question. I think about this a lot. I don't think that it's common. I think if it was common we'd see a lot more data scientists doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I mean--there's other reasons for that. I mean, I could be making a $300,000 salary if I wanted to do data science in a tech company. We don't do this work for the money. But I do think that I've had different relationships with data and how I approach this work, and I think I do want to start this by saying that it's really because of my team at ReadySet that I have become this hybrid that I feel comfortable [?] and that I am able to do both the quantitative aspects of my job and also the very human aspects of my job. I think when I came into this field I had been taught my entire career that quantitative evidence-based scientifically published data is the only type of data of value. So evidence-based work, evidence-based in general is such a buzzword now. I think everybody hears it, and I think people believe "evidence-based" means that it has to be couched in [?] methods and scientific papers and outcomes calculated in ROI, and I definitely did when I started with this work. So I'll just tell you a quick story. I think in my first week of working with ReadySet I was analyzing data for a company, and I was doing it the way that I had always been taught to, which is trying to find significant statistical difference between groups in a sample, and in order to do that, when you have fewer than 5 people in a sample you usually just take [?] out because it's not gonna be statistically valid, and I remember having this conversation. I think in the room was [?], one of my colleagues, and Kim Tran, and we started this conversation, which was started by them, which was, "Why are we leaving out a small sample?" Now, this sample had been a sample of transgender people within a company, and in my mind I was just like, "Well, we'll just leave them out 'cause they're not a big enough group," and they were--you know, that was how I had been taught, and they were like, "Wait, but the whole point of doing this work is to represent the voices and the opinions and the feelings of underrepresented, small numbers of people within a company," and I was like, "God, that makes total sense," and it's ridiculous that I had even thought in my mind that that was an appropriate thing to do, you know, in terms of getting these major insights. So that's just a story about, you know, how I first started thinking about this, so I really want to give credit to my teammates for helping me get there. I still think that evidence-based research is important, but so much of that research is based on white, Euro-centric idea samples and methods. Quant data can be super useful, let's say if you want to track representation in your company or show that a bias exists, but it should not be necessary for doing this work. It's just that our concept of data, what data is and what kind of data is valid and important is biased, and I've been writing about this a lot recently. I'm trying to publish it soon, but I've just been getting--I feel like this idea is so complex and interesting, but I have noticed that there has been a trend with the people that we work with, and that is people's responses to DEI work in particular, they use data--and data with a big D, I call it--to stall and delegitimize or otherwise reject diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Zach: Yo! Yo, wait a second! Golly, Dr. Jampol on here dropping crazy, crazy, crazy Flex bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] Oh, my gosh. And then also--Dr. Jampol: Yeah, and please feel free to, like, stop me whenever. I tend to just go on [?].Zach: Yo! Yeah, I'm trying not to cut you off. I'm trying not to be rude. And also air horns for your team, 'cause I know you shouted them out. [air horns sfx] Okay, so first of all, yo, man, tell me why you're talking about--you said people use big Data, big capital D data, to discount D&I initiatives and--like, say that again.Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think that people are using data to basically put off doing the hard work, to delegitimize the work itself or just reject, like, having to do any of that work itself, and I'll explain a little bit why I think this is happening. So I think it's happening in part because the way that people in power use data in relation to diversity, equity and inclusion work is similar to other ways that we inadvertently uphold systems of oppression. It's essentially gatekeeping, and it benefits white people, and I think one of the ways that I've seen this is overly demanding evidence from DEI best practices. So wanting to know, like, what exactly is going to work here in my specific context, but then also refusing to contribute to those best practices by actually being innovative and taking risks in that space so that we can add to the knowledge base. And then another way is through dehumanizing human data by not looking beyond the quote-unquote "hard data," so not wanting to listen to people's stories, not wanting to hear the voices of employees that already exist within their organizations, by not wanting to listen to experts, people like my teammates who have been spending years doing this work, and then finally using data or the need for more evidence to block the efforts to actually go forward on that data. And so often, you know, we'll have a conversation with people that often sounds like, "Okay, here's why we should go forward with this program," and they'll come back and say, "Okay, okay, but do you have any data on whether this is gonna work?" And I'll come back and say, "Look, we don't have a ton of data yet. This is still a pretty new field, and there's lots of different people doing it. It really depends on what your context is. But, like, here's what we know." "Okay, but that's not enough data. Like, we really can't go forward with this until there's something that's not gonna be as risky." So then we'll come back and say, "[We] collected all this data from inside of your organization. Here's this group, this group and this group that are saying, "I'm not happy." Please do these things," and they'll say, "Okay, but how many people actually said it, and can you actually go get us some [?] studies of other companies like mine that have done this so we don't take a risk and don't make people upset?" And then we say, "Which people are you making upset?" And then they look blankly and say, "Wait a second." And we're like, "Yeah, [white?] people." Anyway, I think the reason I put it this way is that I think that data is important, yes, [but?] data is used as a tool to block this work because it is inherently uncomfortable and it involves having to do [?] and it involves having to do some money and some priorities into it, and I think people ultimately just don't think it's that important, and so they're able to use data as this kind of delegitimizing or scapegoating force that they can say, "Well, we don't have enough to do it." That's my thoughts on that in a nutshell.Zach: First of all, again, shout-out to you 'cause, man, that's incredible. You know, I might have to go ahead and drop another Flex bomb... [Flex bomb sfx] 'cause that's incredible. So it's interesting though, because you're talking about how organizations can use quote-unquote "data" to slow down or block efforts to make organizations more inclusive, but I also think, like, there's something to be said about how data itself is reported, aggregated or analyzed, right? So how do we account for, and how in your experience as a data scientist do you account for, the biases that exist within, like, data analytics itself, right? So let's just say you get the data. How do you account for biases on the day that you receive it, and how do you account for any biases that you have, conscious or otherwise, in how you analyze and report that out?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a really great question, and--I mean, there's a lot to be said here, and I think this conversation is happening in other places like AI as well. I think first of all, like, the way that we use--so let's go back to the evidence-based question for a minute. So when people talk about evidence, they're often talking about academic research that has been done. As an academic researcher myself, I know that a lot of this research is really not legitimate for talking about any bit of this work with any kind of intersectional lens, because most of this work has been done using a super white sample at an Ivy League institution in a lab where all of the variables have been held constant except for the one that you're researching, and that unfortunately has translated in a lot of cases to best practices where people say, "Oh, well, we have to change this one thing in our organization because research has shown when you change this one thing, this happens." Of course that doesn't really incorporate a lot of people's experiences, and I want to say also that I am fully guilty of doing this in my past research. So as a gender bias researcher, I often talked about women and men as this very, like, homogeneous group, and really when I'm talking about women and men I'm talking about white women and men, because that's my sample and that's the lens through which I was doing the work. And, like, Black women's experiences are gonna be super different and my affects might totally change. You know, one of my affects that I found is that women--and I should say white women because that was the majority of my sample--are given less accurate performance feedback than man. So even though they're judged to be doing poorly, their managers will tell them that they're doing okay. By the way, this work was done in a lab with a primarily sample of white people who were Ivy League educated and through samples in, you know, Mechanical Turk online. So just thinking about that through an intersectional lens, do I know that that is going to happen in the same way for women of color when we're thinking about different types of women in the workplace? No, and yet we still use these words, you know, "This is a gender bias effect," you know, without really knowing what some of the different groups might experience. So I do think there's that bias. I also think in terms of the data that we're analyzing. This is another really important thing. When we get survey data, often companies just want to rely on that survey data to make decisions, but the problem is there are certain groups--especially the ones that feel less safe in organizations--that do not answer the survey, and so you're leaving out groups of people who are the most important to hear from if you're just looking at one type of information. Instead it's better to go and do a qualitative assessment on top of the data and make sure you're getting down to the bottom of some of the trends that you see, but also you're including voices that wouldn't necessarily participate in a written way. So there's lots of different ways that bias can creep in, and the way that we analyze it and the way that we do that research is really important.Zach: I'm really curious about your opinions on this, and I've shared this on another interview but I want to bring it up here. So your work heavily focuses on partnering with organizations to help them set up their D&I strategies, and when I talked to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, a lot of time this work is delivered in the context of office hours or workshops or, you know, trainings. I'm curious though, like, have you helped groups transition from seeing diversity, equity and inclusion as, like, these isolated, singular events to being more of, like, an iterative journey that they're on to develop and grow and, like, partner with them? Like, have you seen that or have you helped any organizations kind of pivot in that way?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think it's hard. I think it's really hard. Most of the work we get is for "check the box" type work. Initially a lot of organizations want to come in and hire us to do a workshop or an assessment and then go from there, which is totally fine. Often the people who are initiating those programs are internal HR and DEI practitioners who have a very limited budget that they're working with and need something to be able to convince stakeholders that this is worthwhile and that there's a desire for it or they just want to get it flowing. So we love doing that kind of work because it allows us to be able to impart important knowledge. For example, we focus a lot on systems bias, not just interpersonal or unconscious bias. We focus on biases that are structural and how those relate to historical systems of oppression. So we do get our education in there, but in order to do this work successfully it has to be integrated with other business objectives and as an outcome itself. So we know, you know, you can make the business case for it. It's tied to ROI. It's tied to innovation. I mean, it's a really important part of culture. I've found that in order to convince stakeholders I often offer the risk side of this as well. It's really risky to not do this work for many reasons. I mean, talent attraction for one, but there's also your culture can fall apart, and that can actually lose tons of money. But ultimately our aim is to get people to see why it's more than a business case, and I think we've had this success with a couple of companies. I'm thinking of one in particular where--and actually this is one that I've mentioned before in some of my stories, where we came in and did a series of conversations with the executive team trying to convince them that, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is a good way to go, and it took a long time. It took 6 months of really educating people, bringing them in terms of conversation, letting them contribute their thoughts and fears, and really we use, you know, empathy, but also just vulnerability there to understand, like, where the pain point is, and now we've got, you know, a multi-year scope with them, and they have fully understood, and we're working with every single organization and team within their company, and its become a priority, but it did take some time. So I think there's hope to be had, but I think you have to do it really intentionally and really methodically in order to get people there unless you have someone who's on board already.Zach: That really leads me to my next question. What do you think the next step is for diversity, equity and inclusion, like, as an industry, as a corporate for-profit space? And I ask because I see--it's weird, and again, like, I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a behavioral scientist. I'm just a change manager who is also passionate about diversity and inclusion who's doing his own thing and kind of creating his own path. It's almost like you have this growing activist wing and, like, community organizing wing within this diversity, equity and inclusion space. There's also, like, this growing academic wing that is almost, like, a white moderate, but then I see this other group that's almost pushing against the community organizing activist attitudes and sentiments, almost to the point where--'cause I've seen things like this on LinkedIn, no doubt, where I've seen things that people say, "Just because you're a person of color doesn't mean that you should be in diversity and inclusion," right? There's these narratives of, "You're passionate, but your passion doesn't equal education or credentialing." And so I'm really curious about, like, where do you see this space going next, and what do you think is, like, the next step to really take this work to the next level?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a big question, and I'm just gonna kind of share some thoughts. I don't know that I have a perfect answer for you on this, but I think to your comment around--you know, you see these kind of different camps on social media and practitioners and different approaches and ways of doing this work, and I think actually that that's a really important dynamic to have to move the work forward. I think it's the same thing we see, say, like, in the Democratic Party, where there's a more radical left side and then there's the centrist side and then there's this push and pull constantly of, like, "What do we do and where do we go?" And through doing that we're creating new definitions and understandings. And, you know, I get a ton of education from just reading through Twitter on a daily basis of, like, "Oh, I didn't know that word. I hadn't thought about it in that way before," and trying to see, like, where my values align, but I think that in order to progress we need pressure from the outside. We need radical pressure, and we also need the more compromising inside pressure of "Okay, we're gonna take this slow and do this methodically and bring people along," and I think you need both those forces. I think the outside pressure is the social pressure that really validates some of the inside pressure that we're putting on people. So let's say I'm taking a company along, trying to get them to understand using empathy, and they're doing okay, but then they have a PR crisis because something they posted on their social media site gets called out, and those two forces operating together create a really successful way forward, and I think that's also why there's different roles for different people within this space. I do think we should be pushing boundaries, and I do think we should be pushing people to get there, and I think some of the comments that are happening around this stuff is really just evidence that that's happening, and I think the third part of this is just that we need companies to lend more support to actual innovation within this space. Going back to that data conversation, you know, by demanding best practices and more evidence to prove the things that we already know work and to prove that we're actually legitimate in doing this work, it's stifling innovation. We need organizations and leaders who have the privilege of being in these spaces already to put money and time and effort and spaces towards creating innovation in the DEI space. We need more collaboration between academics, leaders, corporate employees, and we all need to work together to be able to create new pathways forward, but I think we have to get out of that head space of thinking about, "Best practices, best practices, best practices," and start taking a little bit more risk, because I think we're seeing risk the wrong way. We're seeing risk as like, "What if I do this work and it goes wrong?" when we should be seeing risk the way that any other company sees innovation and risk, which is sometimes you have to play around with the parameters in order to do the work the most effective way. But I as a data person would love to see data on this, just so we can keep track of what we're doing and what works and what doesn't. I think I would love to see more data like that, but it means that companies have to release their data on what works and what doesn't, and when diversity and inclusion stops being a shameful thing, you know, when companies stop thinking, "Oh, gosh. It's so horrible that I only have 20% women or 5% Black people in our company. Nobody knows, so I don't want to talk about it." Like, everybody knows. Everybody knows. You're a tech company. Like, it's bad. Talk about it and, like, actually publish it and support new ways of thinking about this stuff. I think we need all three prongs of pressure there to move forward.Zach: Man, Dr. Jampol, I have to just thank you again. Like, this has been a super dope conversation. I want to give you the last word. Is there anything else? Like, any shout-outs? Any parting words before we let you up out of here?Dr. Jampol: Thank you. I feel the same way. This has been such a fun conversation. Thank you for letting me nerd out and be on your podcast. I think your podcast is wonderful. Thank you for doing the work that you do. I also just want to give a shout-out to my team again because they're so amazing and I feel grateful for them every single day and for all the authors who have helped educate me to get here. And Twitter. Honestly, like--not Twitter the company but, like, the people who are actually being brave and voicing their thoughts on Twitter and helping educate us, even if it means that they are taking flack for it. I think it's been such an important part of my own growth. So thanks to everybody.Zach: Oh, man. That's beautiful, and yes, we'll make sure that we list all the authors and we'll have all of that content in the show notes, y'all, so make sure you check it out because, again, believe women, listen to women, believe Black women, believe all women. There's a lot of great work that's being done, you know? For those of y'all who are--you know, it's funny. There's an understated, like, expectation or kind of, like, tension around who really deserves to talk about these things, and those conversations don't really happen until Black and brown people start trying to talk about diversity and inclusion, but that's a whole other conversation. But the point is a lot of the work that comes into really educating yourself, what I've been learning is, is about reading the work that Black and brown women have written about this space, right? And so I just want to encourage, like, if you're listening to this and you're passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, check out the show notes, use that as a starting point, and just start reading. Like, educate yourself something. Like, don't depend on these super Ivy League white institutions to tell you what diversity is. It is one of multiple data points. I would say start with the Black women and then work your way outward from there. All right. Well, cool, cool, cool. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this. You know we're posting content three times a week. We're all over the place, so if you just Google Living Corporate we're gonna pop up, 'cause we got it like that. Ow. We're also on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and again, if you want to check us out, if you just gotta--let's say you old school and you wanna type it in the browser, then it's www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We're also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org--Lily, we have all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other ones. We're trying to--what's that thing when you... SEO. We're trying to take it over, okay? One domain at a time. So we're out here. Let's see here. Until next time, this again has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Lily Jampol, data scientist, behavioral organizational just beast, general researcher, all over super dope White Wolf ally... what else we got? I don't want to say edge-snatcher because, I mean, you're still white. I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but just super cool Viking Ashkenazi Jew hero. How about that? Is that cool?Dr. Jampol: That's awesome, and I'm someday hopefully gonna fit that all in my LinkedIn profile. [both laugh]Zach: 'Til next time, y'all. We'll catch y'all. Peace. [both still laughing]Dr. Jampol: Bye.

Zach sits down with comedian Roy Wood Jr. to discuss Black comedy and the impact of the coronavirus on our working routines. They talk about their shared experiences as Black fathers, and Roy explains some of the difficulties he experiences working from home in the wake of COVID-19. This episode is explicit, so listener discretion is advised!Connect with Roy on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. You can also check some of his work out on Comedy Central's website.Visit his official website.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Really excited for this episode. You know, you probably noticed this week we had two big episodes. We had Ken Miller, CEO in the healthcare industry, and now, you know, we're about to bring you another incredible episode with Roy Wood Jr. Roy Wood Jr., y'all know who Roy Wood Jr. is, man. I mean, if you don't, I'm about to read this crazy bio. I'm gonna read the entire thing. Shout-out to Roy Wood Jr.'s team. His comedy has entertained millions across the stage, television and radio. In addition to stand-up comedy, producing and acting, Roy is currently a correspondent on Comedy Central's Emmy & NAACP Award winning The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. During his tenure, he has used The Daily Show’s brand of satire to shed a light on serious issues like Chicago gun violence, police reform, LGBTQ+ discrimination, ICE deportations and PTSD in the Black community. Wood's recent credits include guest starring roles on the Netflix comedy series Space Force, the AMC series Better Call Saul, and The Last O.G on TBS. Roy expanded his already large role on Comedy Central with a comprehensive “first look” deal and is developing his comedy pilot ‘Jefferson County: Probation.’ In addition, he recently created the Comedy Central series "Stand-Up Playback" in which his fellow comics revisit vintage clips of them performing and see if their old jokes still hold up. Roy also wrote and starred in the Comedy Central web series The Night Pigeon, the story of a Black superhero with minimal powers fighting the biggest baddest gang in his community, The Gentrifiers. Additionally, Comedy Central is committed to produce and air Roy’s third one-hour standup special. His second special, Roy Wood Jr.: No One Loves You, premiered as part of Comedy Central’s Stand-Up Month in January 2019, the network’s highest rated original stand-up premiere since his February 2017 one-hour, Roy Wood Jr.: Father Figure. In 2017, he was also named the new host of Comedy Central’s storytelling series, This is Not Happening. Roy is a graduate of the Florida A&M University with a B.S. in Broadcast Journalism. True to his roots, he is a strong and outspoken advocate for reshaping the image of Alabama and the American South as a whole. In 2018, he penned a New York Times piece on the subject. He is actively working with the Birmingham City Council and the Film Commission to bring more entertainment jobs to the state. During the pandemic, Roy has spent time raising money for the staff of his hometown comedy clubs in Alabama through tipyourwaitstaff.com and Laugh Aid. In October 2006, he made his network television debut on the Late Show with David Letterman. In 2008, he appeared on HBO’s historic Def Comedy Jam, and in 2010 he was selected by America as one of the top three finalists on NBC’s Last Comic Standing. He has appeared on The Late, Late Show with Craig Ferguson, Conan, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, Late Night with Seth Meyers and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. He has also performed for the troops on numerous USO tours in the Middle East and the Pacific Islands. Prior to The Daily Show, Wood co-starred for three seasons on the TBS sitcom Sullivan & Son. Listen, I read that whole bio. I want you to check this out, okay? We didn't cut this show. It's explicit. We cussin' in there. I'm not cussin', so Mom, please don't--please, y'all, don't get me. I'm fine. I'm not cussin', but we did say "nigga" a lot. Ooh, this might be the first time we've said "nigga" on Living Corporate. But listen, I just need y'all to just prepare yourselves, okay? So there's some listener discretion advised if you're sensitive to that type of language, but I think it's also really important for you to understand how Black folks talk. Some of us, not everybody. Everybody don't say nigga, but I say it often. Let me just go ahead and be transparent. I say nigga a lot. I feel it is liberating, and it affirms me as a person. There's plenty of thought pieces about uses and variations of the N-word within the Black community. You should educate yourself on that. Maybe we'll talk about it another time on Living Corporate with some type of like, I don't know, professor of Black studies or some linguistic person or--I don't know, we'll figure it out, but I just wanted to let y'all know that I'm really excited about this episode. Stay tuned. Here it comes. Peace.Zach: Roy, man, it's an honor. Welcome to the show. I feel like this is a loaded question, but I'ma ask anyway. How are you doing these days?Roy: I'm doing about as decent as I can, you know, considering these quarantine times that we're living in. You know, that's it, man. You know, we makin' it. We makin' it.Zach: Right, and we're gonna get to that a little bit about, like, just the working from home dynamics a little bit later in the conversation, but I've been asking folks this fairly regularly, especially people in my Gen X cohort--you know, I'm not calling you old, I promise, but I think it's important--Roy: [laughs] Nah, I'll wear it. It's fine.Zach: Okay, okay, cool. So, like, regarding the protests and the collective call to consciousness around anti-racism, like, you know, you were around during the Rodney King protests. Like, have you ever seen anything like this?Roy: Ooh, no. No. I mean, for Rodney King though, just to give some perspective, that was my freshmen year of high school, and there definitely wasn't any real rioting going--there was some rioting and protesting in Birmingham. I only remember that because I have an older brother, at the time he was a news anchor, so I just remember his coverage of a lot of that stuff. I'm trying to think, man. I don't think there's a time that's like where we are now in terms of the ripple effect. I'm also feeling like for the first time, as a Black person, feeling heard to a degree. Like, I think that's the biggest issue.Zach: I think what's also been really unique in this moment is, like, seeing so many white folks get beat on camera by the police. I don't--Roy: Oh, yeah. Them white folks. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to think. Yeah, white people getting beat in record numbers, but that's coming because they're trying to protect Black people. If you're trying to protect niggas, you might have to take this billy club. And them white people is like, "Go ahead!" Did you see the white lady butt naked in Portland a couple weeks ago? Man. Just Google "butt naked white lady Portland protests." Zach: She was out there--Roy: Man... as they would say in the Black community, "Bust it wide open."Zach: Oh, no... I gotta check it out, but, you know, that's an important part of allyship. I mean, like, even with that in mind, like, there are a lot of white folks out here putting their capital on the line, you know what I'm saying? It's wild to see, especially in this scope and scale. So okay, let's get right into it. You know, your career started over 22 years ago, right? How would you describe, like, the collective shift that Black comedy has taken since you got started regarding, like, mainstream consumption? Like, is there anything surprising as you kind of look across the landscape today?Roy: I think that there's more diversity in the voices of Black comedians. I don't think it's fair to even say Black comedy is restricted to creatives whose origin points are solely in the performative arts. Issa Rae didn't start in standup or improv as far as I know. Standup for sure she didn't, improv I don't know, but I would consider her a part of the Black comedy diaspora and what they've done over there. That show doesn't get made 20 years ago. I feel like a show like Blackish--like, I think the biggest shift is that there's been a bigger trust in having creators tell the story instead of sort of a network coming in and going, "Hey, we just want to give you a show and plug you in it," you know? I think that someone like Kenya Barris, who dabbled in standup early on but really made his name as a writer. You know, this brother's able to bring a bunch of different comedic voices and a lot of different comedic content out to the world, and so, you know, I think the biggest change in Black comedy is that Black comedians aren't the only gatekeepers of what is funny, you know? You got the young bucks too, you know? A lot of--if this was 10, 15 years ago, a nigga like DC Young Fly woulda had to wait his turn, as they say, you know? Waited, "Do enough standup and then somebody will put you in the show, and then--" No. That boy picked up his phone and, "Fuck you mean just wait?" Into filming television, you know? "Y'all not gonna ignore me. I'm out here. I have an audience," and it's he who has the audience that has the power. [The streets?] don't care where the jokes come from. They just wanna laugh. So if you're out there and you're funny and you find the people who agree, you're gonna have a career, and if you're nice you're gonna have a long career, you know? So I think that there's a real element of--I don't know how to put it. I just think that there's more variety, you know? A Black lady sketch show on HBO, you know? There isn't a single comedian in that cast. Not a standup I think. I would have to check and ask around about Quinta B, but as I recall Quinta B comes from improv. Very funny woman. Ashley Nicole Black is an amazing writer. You know, Gabrielle, like, always been an amazing actress. Can do comedy, can do drama. Robin [?] is an amazing comedic mind, you know? She's been writing--like, her pedigree on the writing side, the comedy writing side of the game, that's a 15-year... I don't want age her, so I'll say 10-year, that's a good 10-year run, you know? I don't know, but her name is rang out with any of the bigger names in comedy. That show probably doesn't get made 20 years ago, or they would take Robin's show and go, "All right, but we gotta put in Monique or [?] or someone who's more forward-facing and prominent, because then we believe people will watch it," where as now networks are like, "Fuck it. If it's Black and it's funny, it's gonna go. We don't care whether or not the faces are familiar." Get to know us. There ain't a nigga on Insecure that was a household name before that show with the exception of Amanda Seales. Yvonne was doing--and I say this lovingly. You know, Yvonne Orji, that's the homie, and she was doing comedy, she was doing standup, but the level of prominence that they had when they got cast as leads on that show comparative to any sitcom you can name in the Black comedy diaspora from the 70s until, like, Martin, you had to have already been a star somewhere else to get the shot, where now if you're talented and it's a good idea, "We're gonna take a chance on you," and I think that's the biggest difference, you know, that I've seen. A show like Atlanta doesn't get made 20 years ago. It's too specific. And they wanted Black comedy to be broader. Black comedy has always had to be this broad thing where now it's like, "No. It is a show about three niggas in Atlanta and their daily struggles." But what's the theme? "Hey, there might be an alligator in one episode. There might be a nigga in whiteface whispering in another episode." But yeah, that only happens if you have network execs that are bold enough to get out of Black creatives' way and let them tell the specific stories that they want to tell, and that's what's finally starting to happen, you know, all over the place, you know? So I know that was a long ass answer, but you asked, so... [laughs]Zach: No, I did. I appreciate it. Thank you. [laughs] To that point though about the execs, like, there are a few different articles right now discussing Comedy Central's programming shift in the content that centers more Black and brown voices, stories and perspectives. Like, do you think I'm overstating that your work on The Daily Show, along with Dulce Sloan's and Jaboukie Young-White and Ronnie Chieng have helped to influence that? Because I feel as if--and the reason I ask is when I think about when Trevor Noah took over for The Daily Show, I mean, I would watch [it] before, but when he took over it was just like--I kind of looked up one day and I was like, "Man, there are a lot of Black folks on The Daily Show." Like, a lot--Roy: Yeah, Trevor snuck 'em in. He snuck 'em in one by one, yeah, then you look twice and you're like, "Wait a minute, where'd all these Black people come from?" I think that the network--The Daily Show has been a great incubator of talent as a franchise full stop. So as Trevor diversifies the show, Comedy Central ain't dumb. "Let's start working with these folks to do more stuff with them." So that's been the cool part of it, you know, is if you can get your foot in the door with The Daily Show--I've had two hour specials with the network. Respectfully, I couldn't get two hour specials with Comedy Central before I got on The Daily Show, and I know because I tried. So there's a different world, just different opportunities open up to you once somebody's able, once you get a look. Half of Black entertainment is just a bunch of talented niggas waiting for somebody to throw 'em the oop. That's it. And once you get thrown the oop, look at all these slam dunks that's comin', that's just been coming down the pipe in Black comedy in the last 5 years. So, you know, Dulce steps in, Trevor threw the oop, boom, now she's working on a half-hour. Dropped a half-hour comedy special. Jaboukie's been writing on animated shows and doing his thing in LA, and Trevor threw him the oop. Boom. Comedy special for him. So there's a lot of other opportunities, but then I think as--I also think part of it is maybe jealousy from network to network. You don't want to be the one to miss out. "Oh, they got some Black shit. Shit, we need to get our Black shit." Now, man, if I could tell you--I can't, but if I could tell you all of the shows and the diversity inquiries that have been coming down the pipeline since the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor protests started, you know, just with regards to people--even if it's just performative diversity, fuck it. I'll take that.Zach: It's an opportunity though.Roy: Yeah. "Hey, Roy. We're looking for Blacks. Do you know any Blacks that can work on our show?" Man, I been recommending niggas left and right for the past month and a half, most I don't even talk to no more. Like, bro, I'm out of Black people. Like, I gotta recommend Black people who I know don't even fuck with me no more, but you right for the job, and I want you to eat because it's a victory for everybody. Ain't no hate in my heart when it comes to making money or watching somebody make money.Zach: Right. I think that leads me into my next question, because there was this article I read today in Black Enterprise about--and it was a critique from a Black lawyer--about how Black Hollywood has a responsibility to have more Black representation within their teams, right? So first of all--Roy: Oh, yeah. Jaia Thomas, the lawyer. Yeah, yeah. I read that.Zach: So first of all let me ask you - is it fair to say you're a member of Black Hollywood, and then two, what has been your approach to how you even, you know, hire folks for your team on the behind the scenes stuff?Roy: Huh. Am I a part of Black Hollywood? Yes, full stop. I almost said some shady shit. I ain't gonna say nothing. I'm gonna be respectful. I'm a part of Black Hollywood. Here's how I put it. If Black Hollywood was the cafeteria in high school, I wouldn't be at the cool kids table. But I'm in the cafeteria, so shut the fuck up. Be blessed and be thankful. Fine. My approach to diversity is it has to be deliberate. I've tried as much as I can when I'm on the road as a touring comedian to take a Black woman comic with me. That choice is usually dictated by the number of tickets you sell in a market in markets where I'm not as popular. I don't have the leverage, so I'm not gonna sit here and act like I've done it every single time, but about 85% of that time, yes, I try to do that. The wonderful, wonderful, highly acclaimed Nina Shaw, Black attorney on the team. Part of the reason why I switched agencies to where I am now was because of diversity, and there was a little bit more diversity on the team that was presented to me at William Morris, and so that was very important to me as I started getting into a place at Comedy Central where I wanted to start selling more television programs, and some of this stuff is specifically Black, and you need someone on your team that understands that. It's just an ease of execution. So having that mix on the team, that's all beneficial, and I think more importantly for me is that I was able to benefit from being with a creative partner in Comedy Central who understood this importance for diversity. You know, I'm talking two, three years ago, man, before everybody was, you know, priding and preening around. I shot a pilot for Comedy Central where I play a probation officer. It's a project that's still in development, but Comedy Central made me roll that bitch straight to Birmingham, and we shot a network television show--we shot an episode of a network television show in fucking Birmingham, Alabama. That's... I can't even overstate how unprecedented that is. There's film production in Alabama, but not a lot of TV. Not scripted. So that's jobs. We shot in the middle of the Civil Rights district. So when the conversation about staffing came up, you know, we're talking 13, 14 roles on the show, everybody Black. Black woman director who went and got a Black cinematographer who went and got a Black VP [?], like, just straight diversity through and through, and that was something that Comedy Central never pushed back on, you know? It's one of those things where, you know, you throw somebody the oop--somebody threw you the oop, so you gotta throw the oop to somebody else. And so I think that's the biggest part of it, you know, and I read that article from Attorney Thomas in Black Enterprise, and I really think that she makes a lot of fair points, because a lot of the power and leverage and control in Hollywood and what gets greenlit comes from that executive side that is still disproportionately white. You just have to be able--the unfortunate thing that most minorities are pushed into, if you're in Black Hollywood but you're not powerful enough yet. I'm not powerful enough yet. I'm not Will Packer. I'm not Lena Waithe. I'm not [?]. I'm not Kenya Barris. So when you're not powerful enough yet, you have to fight harder to get people in there to actually do the job for you, and a lot of people won't listen to you. They straight blow you off. They'll play you to the left, you know what I'm saying? So there's this contingency, and when you say Black Hollywood you're including the whole cafeteria, but really that shift has to start with the cool kids table, with a lot more people who have the power, and a lot of those people in power, they are making those changes. So that's been the cool thing to see, but when we talk about the overall critique of it, just because you're in Black Hollywood doesn't means you have all of the power and leverage just yet. Thankfully I had the leverage because I was with a partner. You know, my show was at a network--I don't know if any other network would have agreed to shoot a television show in Alabama and straight give me all of the inclusion that I was asking for in 2018. They'll do it now because they don't wanna get they ass roasted, but in 2018 I was shocked. Like, I was legit shocked. I was like, "I want to shoot it in Alabama, and I want Black people and real Blackness! And I'll have Black caterers and Black locals and Black actors, and we're gonna hire and we're gonna bring jobs! I want interns to be Black and gay and [?]," and they was like, "Cool." "...Okay. Well, motherfucker, I want a Black woman director! What you think about that?" "Yeah, fine. We'll get you a list. You can choose and go do meetings and meet and choose one." "Oh... okay. Well, then, let's start. Let's start production then." I went into that bitch charged up, bro. I was ready for a fight.Zach: You were ready to demand, and that's a pleasant surprise though. So look, Roy, we're both now comedians. I have a pilot and stuff I'm writing on, but we're both--so different spaces, but we're both fathers. I'm curious, how has it looked for you to manage your time with a toddler and managing such a high-visibility profession and kind of time in your career? Like, what has that been like?Roy: Um... good creative, good father, good boyfriend. Every day, choose two. That's pretty much the deal, you know? Every day I know I can do two of these really well. One of them I'm going to suck at, you know? And that's just what it is. I really underestimated how traveling for standup comedy gave me the alone time I needed to create content. So I struggle sometimes with being alone or trying to be alone, because I have people in my space that I can't ignore because they mean a lot to me. So you can't just--you know, your kid's sitting there coloring, doing backflips, and you're like, "Shut the fuck up! I'm trying to type this shit!" You can't do that. So I've learned how to budget--I've literally learned how to partition my day into activities that can be done in his presence versus the ones that cannot, and so the stuff that I know--like, if I'll catch myself at 11:00 at night doing something I know that I could do around him, I'll switch to a different activity so that I could spend time and kind of burn the candle at both ends, but, you know, it's hard. It's not--this is not ideal. This is not the way that I've ever created anything in 20 years, so it's an adjustment. So you're trying to decide constantly, "All right, well, I need to write." Let's say the goal tonight is to write 10 pages of a script. I got a couple of hours. Can I knock out 10 pages? Let's see. Well, if I'm trying to do that around them all day and it takes 3 hours, I know if I'd have had solitude I could have done it in an hour and a half, you know, or two hours. So then it's like, "Well, I'll just wait 'til tonight," but then now you're not sleeping regularly enough. So now you're groggy around him and her and ain't nobody getting anything done, so that doesn't help anyone. So, you know, it's interesting. It's very interesting.Zach: I mean, let me push a little bit. Like, you kind of alluded to how it's impacted your comedy or how you do the work you do. Do you ever feel anxiety about the world you're raising your child in? 'Cause, like, I'm struggling with that right now, and I'm still trying to--so my daughter's 4 months old, and I'm still trying to deal with--Roy: Ooooh. Zach: Yeah, man. So I'm just trying to deal with the anxiety of--first of all, of course I've been Black my whole life, right, similar to you, so these challenges and anxieties aren't new. They wouldn't have not been here before, but I think with everything happening--you got a pandemic, plenty of people that I know and love have, you know, contracted COVID, so I'm curious, like, if you have those same anxieties considering everything happening in the world as a parent.Roy: Yeah, I definitely have some level of fear of what type of world I'm preparing for. I'm trying to make sure he's not completely unarmed. The biggest thing I struggle with right now is how soon until I have to make my son aware of his Blackness. You know, we're already working on temper tantrums and how to behave in class, because I feel like, you know, Black kids get unjustly disciplined more, you know, stuff like that. So it's definitely a concern, but I think the thing that I'm trying to teach him more about is not necessarily how to solve these problems but how to manage his emotions around these issues, when you get frustrated, when you get angry, how to hold on, how to keep believing, how to continue to fight. That's gonna be the most valuable weapon that I can give my child, because that's what he's going to need by the bucket loads, resolve. "When the police do this do this, and then do this, and then when they tell you this--" Okay, fine, but what if a cop still punches you in the mouth?Zach: Right. You could do everything perfect. Then what?Roy: Yeah, and then what? And that's where trying to manage emotions--that's where all that comes into play.Zach: I feel like there's a certain level of absurdity that we're in right now, that--like, honestly, Roy, there are things that would be funny to me if they weren't simultaneously so sad and terrifying. I know that, you know, The Daily Show--I mean, y'all do a phenomenal job, of course, at, like, pointing out the absurdity and laughing at it, and I think of course there's a certain level of performance to that. I'm curious for you, like, how do you even keep joking in times like this, and has there ever been, especially right now, moments even when you're kind of, like, writing a script or getting ready for the show that, like, you're frustrated? Like, what does that look like right now?Roy: I think on the days where we aren't in a mood to laugh, more than likely America's in the same place. So if that's the case, I think you tap into the outrage of what people are feeling, you know? You're not always going to land every single joke, and sometimes there isn't a time for a joke. Sometimes there's just time for a conversation and a discussion. We were off for the first two weeks of the George Floyd protests, and when we came back, those first two episodes, there were not a lot of jokes. It was just real talk and honest conversation, and I think that was the right thing to have at that time. I think we did a panel on that Tuesday back as well where we just dialogued, and I think that was the right choice, you know? I don't think we're ever in a place to always be funny. I think we're always in a place to add levity and, you know, analysis and reason, and sometimes that's just from a controlled conversation and sometimes that's from jokes. Most of the time it's from jokes, you know, but I think that knowing that, you know, a lot of people turned to us for that. You know, I think that a lot of people, you know, watch The Daily Show to laugh, but I think there's even more people who watch it just so that they can know for sure that they're not alone in feeling the way they feel about the world, and if you feel a little less alone at the end of an episode, we did our job.Zach: I love it, man. You know, you talked a little bit about time to jokes and time to not. I mean, I'm really curious, as a comedian with the commentary you have, are there jokes that you can let fly now that you know you wouldn't have got off, like, 3 or 4 years ago?Roy: Ooh. Well, it's hard for me to say because I was doing stuff 2, 3 years ago that I felt, you know--like, cats was reposting my stuff about... like, I had a joke last year on my hour-long special about getting rid of the National Anthem 'cause it's got a whack beat and we should be singing Bruno Mars as a country, and so when the anthem debate kind of popped up, that was one of the first jokes that I saw recycled, you know, online. I've always been trying to fire away, you know? I do think that the trick now--I think a better way to answer your question is I can be a little more angry in my material now and it's okay, 'cause you know that we're angry, where as before I had to smile a little bit more when I talked about shit that I was angry about. I always felt this impulse where, "Well, I don't want to make 'em uncomfortable, so let me show 'em a little teeth. I'ma still talk about police reform, I'ma talk about some heavy shit, but I'ma try to smile every now and then." And now I just don't. If I don't want to I don't have to, and it's okay. And I really believe that that's probably the biggest difference between pre- and post-COVID comedy is that we have the freedom and autonomy to be upset. Kind of like--it's similar, and I don't know if enough people tracked this but I did because I'm a comedy nerd, but it's similar to what happened around the rise of the #MeToo movement with a lot more women comics being much more outspoken on stage with their material and feeling confident and going, "Nah, this what the hell I'ma talk about, and this is what y'all gonna sit here and listen to." The freedom to be angry is something that, you know, I think is a beautiful thing.Zach: It is, and I'ma tell you, like, that freedom that you're talking about, it translates into the corporate world too, right? So I'm in consulting, and so there's much more space I feel like I have than I'm quote-unquote "allowed to have" without immediate retribution. We'll see what happens with this whitelash, man. I'm still not trusting it. I don't know what's gonna happen in the next 6 months, but for right now we're able to speak, you know, our minds a little bit. So no, it is a beautiful thing. Look, Roy, this has been great, man. You went over time with me. I appreciate you. Roy: It's all love.Zach: I feel it. Before we let you go, man, any parting words or shout-outs?Roy: Nah, man. I appreciate you for doing what you're doing, and just keep bringing some good shit to the folks, man. When I got my little podcast and all my stuff off the ground, man, I'd love to call back in and check in with you.Zach: Oh, man. I'ma hold you to that.Roy: All right, man.Zach: All right, now. Talk to you later. Roy: Yeah, have a good one. Zach: Peace. All right, y'all. That's been Living Corporate. Man, that was a really laid-back, real conversation. First comedian we've had on the pod, and I look forward to catching y'all next time. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Roy Wood Jr., comedian, speaker, leader. Peace.