Total SF

A San Francisco culture podcast featuring celebrity guests, non-celebrity guests, personalities from the San Francisco Chronicle and a celebration of Bay Area life. Hosted by culture critic Peter Hartlaub in the historic Chronicle basement photo archive, with frequent appearances by his #TotalSF partner, columnist Heather Knight. A Chronicle paperboy from 1983 to 1985, Hartlaub started writing for the publication in 2000. Hartlaub writes Bay Area culture stories, produces podcasts and digs through the Chronicle archives for his work authoring the Our San Francisco history column. He lives in Alameda.

TV & Film
Society & Culture
Richard Nixon rode on BART, and other transit s...
Michael C. Healy joins Total SF to talk about his years as a BART spokesman, which started before the transit agency opened in 1972. Host Peter Hartlaub and current BART chief communications officer Alicia Trost coax stories from Healy, including the time Atari put arcade games on a BART platform, whether BART could have really crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and comedian Henny Youngman's time in a BART marketing campaign. Healy is the author of "BART: The Dramatic History of the Bay Area Rapid Transit System."
47 min
Bart Shepherd interview, Steinhart Aquarium dir...
With the California Academy of Sciences reopening to the public on Oct. 23, Total SF is joined by Bart Shepherd, the senior director of Steinhart Aquarium. Shepherd and host Peter Hartlaub talk about Shepherd's early years working at the old aquarium, the move to 875 Howard Street, and what managing an aquarium has been like during the pandemic. Shepherd also provides an update on Methuselah the Lungfish, at 85+ years old the longest-living fish in captivity.
34 min
Emperor Norton interview | Total SF
San Francisco legend Emperor Norton joins Total SF co-hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight to talk about the early years of San Francisco and answer Knight's lightning round. Also on the podcast is Joseph Amster, who works in the tourism business in the city and is struggling like many others during the pandemic. Amster talks about how he got his start, and why he didn't pick Mark Twain as his character.
30 min
Our favorite Bay Area hikes during the pandemic...
With the pandemic leading to more outdoor hiking opportunities, co-hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight share their favorite hikes during the pandemic. Selections include multiple hikes on the 49 Mile Scenic Route, two hikes in the South Bay and one creative biking trip from the East Bay to San Francisco. Hartlaub and Knight also give a recap of their recent Walk SF Peak 2 Peak hike.
34 min
Looking back at Orange Skies Day, with Jessica ...
On the one-month anniversary of the day the skies turned orange in San Francisco, host Peter Hartlaub and SF Chronicle photographer look back at the phenomenon known as Orange Skies Day in the Bay Area and beyond. Christian talks about her travels that day, taking iconic photos that were shared on social media by former President Barack Obama. And Hartlaub and Christian talk about how the day will be remembered.
33 min
Muni lines we miss the most, with Muni Diaries ...
Total SF invites our Muni Diaries friends Tara Ramroop and Eugenia Chien to talk about our last Muni rides before the pandemic, our hopes for Muni's future and pick the Muni lines we miss the most. Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight also talk with Ramroop and Chien about the sounds of Muni, and the underrated joys of the 36 Teresita and the 39 Coit.
42 min
Raina Telgemeier interview | Total SF indie boo...
Raina Telgemeier is one of the most popular authors in Bay Area history, selling millions of copies of her young adult graphic novels including "Smile," "Ghosts" and her most recent memoir "Guts" — about her middle school anxiety and panic attacks. The San Francisco native joins host Peter Hartlaub as part of independent bookstore tribute month, talking about her relationship with Green Apple Books in S.F. — where she still signs copies of her books by the hundreds and thousands. She also talks about the first bookstore she fell in love with, what's she's reading during the pandemic and how she represents Bay Area landmarks and even weather patterns in her books.
49 min
What should we put in our 2020 Time Capsule? | ...
We're putting together an official "2020 Can Take the 38 Geary-Rapid Straight to Hell" Time Capsule. What should we put in it. Co-hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight offer their suggestions, including masks, off-brand hand sanitizer, murder hornets and a video of Kimberly Guilfoyle's RNC speech. There are some positives too, including all the great porch bands and wonderful photography.
25 min
The great stairways of San Francisco, with Alex...
Urban Hiker founder Alexandra Kenin comes on Total SF to talk about her project personally climbing and documenting San Francisco's 900+ public stairways, and sharing some of her favorites. Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight also ask Alexandra about coyote sightings, her favorite public restrooms and the most floors she's climbed in a day. See Alexandra's stairway project at
38 min
Corte Madera theater tribute, with Jason Snell ...
41 min
Jorma Taccone interview | Total SF indie bookst...
Jorma Taccone, director of "MacGruber," co-director of "Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping" and member of The Lonely Island music/comedy group, has written a children's book. The Berkeley native comes on Total SF to speak with host Peter Hartlaub about why he made "Little Fox and the Wild Imagination" with illustrator Dan Santat. He also talks about fatherhood, scraper bikes, the time he appeared in one of his father Tony Taccone's plays and the importance of indie bookstores. Jorma and Tony Taccone have a "Little Fox" event set for 2 p.m. Saturday, Sept. 26 at Mrs. Dalloways in Berkeley. More information at
33 min
Officer Edith interview, SF Animal Care & Contr...
Lt. Eleanor Sadler from San Francisco Animal Care & Control has been bringing joy to Twitter and Instagram as "Officer Edith" for years. Sadler joins hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight to talk about how the account started, some of her more interesting animal encounters over the years, the coyotes of San Francisco and how animal lovers sheltering in place can help her small and scrappy city-funded agency.
38 min
Joe Talbot and Jimmie Fails - "The Last Black M...
In a flashback episode from June 4, 2019, “The Last Black Man in San Francisco” director Joe Talbot and star Jimmie Fails come to The Big Event archive studio to talk about the scrappy road to making the indie movie that the longtime friends co-wrote. Host Peter Hartlaub asks about the 5-year production of the film, and the struggles (and heartwarming joy) of relying on the kindness of strangers for location scouting. And Hartlaub, Talbot and Fails all share their Danny Glover stories. The S.F.-based actor is a star in the film.
41 min
Chris Colin interview, Six Feet of Separation p...
When the shelter in place started, Chris Colin founded the newspaper Six Feet of Separation, written entirely by children with Colin acting as publisher. After national attention including a positive review by Dan Rather, the Bernal Heights newspaper has inspired many more local kid-staffed newspapers. Colin joins Total SF to talk about Six Feet, a writing project involving kids for the San Francisco Chronicle Throughline section and some of his favorite places in San Francisco.
36 min
Chuck Prophet interview | Total SF
San Francisco singer/songwriter Chuck Prophet returns to talk about his life in San Francisco during his longest touring break in decades, his last gig before the shutdown and his new album, "The Land That Time Forgot." Host Peter Hartlaub invites San Francisco Chronicle pop music critic Aidin Vaziri for a short conversation before the interview and to interview Prophet - Vaziri profiles the musicians in the Sunday Datebook section.
37 min
Peter Schwartz interview | Total SF
Peter Schwartz has been working as a futurist and scenario planner for more than 45 years, and he says the pandemic is an event like no other in his lifetime. But he also remains optimistic about where we can go from here. Total SF host Peter Hartlaub interviews the Salesforce senior VP of about his future-obsessed childhood, the changing attitudes about surveillance in the U.S. and the consulting work he's done on iconic movies - including "Sneakers," "WarGames" and "Minority Report."
38 min
Stephan Pastis interview | Total SF indie books...
"Pearls Before Swine: comic strip artist Stephan Pastis was a lawyer who hated his job before starting the strip 20 years ago. The Santa Rosa resident still feels pressure to perform, which has led to some of his best work — including recent strips tackling the COVID-19 crisis. Pastis also talks with host Peter Hartlaub about co-writing the Disney+ "Timmy Failure" movie, meeting his hero Charles Schulz — and he pays tribute to his favorite independent bookstores.
41 min
Jasmine Guillory interview | Total SF indie boo...
Romance novelist Jasmine Guillory joins host Peter Hartlaub to talk about the five novels she's written in the last three years, including the new one "Party of Two." The Bishop O'Dowd grad and lifetime East Bay resident talks about her love of Oakland, why she like to include food details in her writing and her favorite romantic movie. Guillory and Hartlaub also pay tribute to local bookstores - explaining how listeners can support indies during the pandemic.
42 min
Judd Winick interview | Total SF indie bookstor...
Total SF welcomes Judd Winick, author and former "The Real World" cast member, to talk about the 20th anniversary of his AIDS education graphic novel "Pedro and Me" — and to pay tribute to his favorite Bay Area comic book shops. To kick off Total SF indie bookstore month, Winick talks about his successful new series "Hilo," what kept him and his family in San Francisco and why local book stores are worth fighting for.
52 min
Pandemic reading list and indie bookstore tribu...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight talk about what they've been reading during the shelter in place, and pay tribute to the independent bookstores and comic book shops they hope will survive. Selections include "The Wedding Date" by Jasmine Guillory, "What Unites Us" by Dan Rather and "Cool Gray City of Love" by Gary Kamiya.
35 min
How to create an SF bike utopia, with Lily Jani...
Chronicle theater critic Lily Janiak joins host Peter Hartlaub to talk about her bike-first lifestyle as a critic, and her thoughts about the future of bicycling in San Francisco. With the San Francisco Chronicle's new The Throughline section mapping out a possible biking/walking future, Hartlaub and Janiak suggest a few priorities — and offer listeners help feeling more comfortable biking into the city.
42 min
Chronicle homelessness reporter Kevin Fagan | T...
The San Francisco Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan is once again at the center of the reporting on a new homelessness project, talks about his own experience with homelessness. He also introduces two songs that he's written about the homeless, and recalls his early music career, which included busking in the UK and New Zealand.
43 min
Extra Spicy hosts Soleil Ho and Justin Phillips...
34 min
David Perlman tribute and final interview | Tot...
After last week's death of David Perlman at age 101, host Peter Hartlaub and reporter Kevin Fagan pay tribute to the legendary former Chronicle science writer, who started at the newspaper in 1940 and worked until his 2017 retirement. After the tribute, we play our 2019 interview with Perlman, celebrating his 100th birthday. Perlman talks about his start at the newspaper, how he became a science writer, coverage from the moon landing to the AIDS crisis and his feelings about retirement at age 98.
42 min
Renel Brooks-Moon interview | Total SF flashback
This Total SF flashback is an interview with Renel Brooks-Moon, longtime Bay Area radio personality, and public address announcer for the San Francisco Giants since 1999. Recording on Aug. 13, 2019, Brooks-Moon visited the Chronicle archive, to speak with host Peter Hartlaub about her early years at KMEL (and one year at KFRC with Dr. Donald D. Rose), her work as a Giants PA announcer and the influence of her father Nathaniel Brooks, an educator who in 1968 became the first black principal in San Francisco.
49 min
Audrey Cooper exit interview & "Pursuit of Happ...
Chronicle editor-in-chief Audrey Cooper returns to Total SF after her surprise announcement that she'll take over as editor of public radio powerhouse WNYC. Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight talk to Cooper about her first time in San Francisco, her move to New York and the editor submits to Knight's lightning round. And the trio break down one more movie together, "The Pursuit of Happyness," the story of a homeless man struggling to raise his son and become a stockbroker in 1980s S.F.
51 min
Rev. Megan Rohrer interview | Total SF in Exile
Fresh off their appearance on "Queer Eye" Season 5, Rev. Dr. Megan Rohrer joins Total SF hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight. They talk about Rohrer's first time visiting San Francisco, ministry at a distance during COVID-19 and what it's like working as an SFPD Chaplain and with the homeless in these uncertain times. Rohrer also talks about their visit to the "Queer Eye" set, and completes Heather's lightning round.
40 min
Hunter and Alexis Pence interview | Total SF in...
San Francisco Giants outfielder Hunter Pence and "Let's Get Lexi" creator Alexis Pence join Total SF to talk quarantine life, walk-up songs, best SF cheeseburgers and make a special announcement — Hunter and Alexis' latest Pineapple Labs coffee has partnered with the San Francisco Chronicle Season of Sharing fund, with proceeds from their June coffee going to the fund. The coffee and mug are available at
41 min
The lost Jeffrey Tumlin episode | Total SF in E...
38 min
"Contagion" breakdown, with Audrey Cooper & Hea...
Total SF breaks down "Contagion," The Steven Soderbergh film was not considered a San Francisco classic (or even an S.F. movie) when it came out in 2020, but it has become iconic for its clairvoyance of the coronavirus pandemic. Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight are joined by Chronicle editor Audrey Cooper, and they talk about how a Chronicle desk got in the movie, the short life span of Gwenyth Paltrow and what the movie got right and wrong.
42 min
SF quarantine house draft, with Heather Knight ...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight make a round-by-round draft of the San Francisco residents they'd want in their quarantine house, battling each other for Marc Benioff, Hunter Pence and a few other surprises. Hartlaub and Knight also recap their first virtual movie night, "Inside Out," which brought #SFRuinsPizza to the No. 1 trending topic on Twitter.
31 min
Total SF "Inside Out" movie night pre-show | To...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight talk about their fifth Total SF Movie Night #5, a Saturday 4/25 screening of "Inside Out" with pizza and pillow fort making challenges. They also talk about keeping things ;positive in San Francisco, and Heather's big column writing award.
23 min
The 5 greatest SF movies, with Heather Knight |...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight reunite to rank their five favorite San Francisco movies to watch while sheltering in place — this is a happy podcast and all of the movies are funny, action-packed or inspiring. They also talk more about their first virtual Total SF event, an "Inside Out" virtual movie night at 7 p.m. on Saturday, April 25.
34 min
What the hell do we do with our kids? | Total S...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight reunite to talk about some more good news in San Francisco, commiserate over the recent school closures, and share ideas for what to do with kids in the coronavirus era. They also announce their first Total SF event since shelter in place, an "Inside Out" virtual movie night at a date TBD.
30 min
Chronicle health reporter Erin Allday | Total S...
Host Peter Hartlaub interviews San Francisco Chronicle health reporter Erin Allday, who has been at the center of the newsroom's coronavirus coverage. Part of the Total SF "Meet a Chronicle Colleague" series during the health crisis, Allday talks about how she fell in love with journalism, when she first heard about the virus and how it's impacting her life — in and out of the newsroom.
37 min
The all happy news episode, with Heather Knight...
Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight podcast together for the first time since the coronavirus crisis forced San Francisco Chronicle reporters to work from home. Hartlaub and Knight share some "good news" stories that they've come across. And they continue a new Total SF feature, "Things I took for granted," talking about the things we'll embrace most when the crisis is over.
30 min
Chronicle photographer Jessica Christian | Tota...
39 min
Warriors beat writer Connor Letourneau | Total ...
The first episode of Total SF in Exile - recorded in host Peter Hartlaub's living room in the work from home era — is an interview with San Francisco Chronicle beat writer Connor Letourneau. This "meet a Chronicle colleague" episode features Connor talking about how he got into journalism, his favorite things in Alameda and what it's been like covering the Warriors in the coronavirus era.
37 min
The San Franciscan magazine co-founders Erica M...
The new magazine The San Franciscan put out its second episode, and Total SF hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight invited co-founders Erica Messner and Amanda Legge on to discuss their endeavor. They talk about their love of S.F. that inspired the magazine, that stunning Sutro Tower cover and the surprisingly cool conversation they had with the New Yorker's intellectual property lawyers.
26 min
Kari Byron interview, with Jenny Buccos
Total SF welcomes co-host Kari Byron, the former "MythBusters" host who talks about San Francisco, her former job at The Chronicle, Muni, bike lanes and (most of all) her new project Crash Test World. Hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight are also joined by ProjectExplorer founder Jenny Buccos, who is teaming up with Byron on "Crash Test World," which will be on Discovery in September. (Episodes available at
37 min
Herb Caen tribute, with Gordon Harvey
Gordon Harvey lives in Alabama, but his heart is in San Francisco. The history professor created the Twitter account Herb Caen Daily (@HerbCaenDaily), sharing famous quotes from the legendary Chronicle columnist. In town to research a book on bike messengers, Harvey joins hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight to pay tribute to Caen and the city that the columnist loved.
38 min
SF Gay Men's Chorus members Chris Verdugo and M...
Gay Men's Chorus executive director Chris Verdugo and 18-year member Michael Tate visit the San Francisco Chronicle, to talk about the Chorus' past, present and future with hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight. The chorus is in the middle of Season 42, with several concerts including Penned in Pink at Davies Symphony Hall on March 26.
35 min
Van Mission, East Cut and other fake SF neighbo...
29 min
Vilaska Nguyen on comedy, being a public defend...
Vilaska Nguyen is an attorney in the S.F. Public Defender's office and stand-up comedian. He also is announcing his candidacy for District 7 supervisor, to replace Norman Yee. Nguyen joins hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight to talk about how Jeff Adachi inspired his comedy, why he lives in San Francisco and face the SF City Insider lightning round.
37 min
Western Neighborhoods Project hops in an SF tim...
36 min
Tom Tolbert on his first years in the Bay Area,...
KNBR host Tom Tolbert joins host Peter Hartlaub to talk about his first memories of San Francisco, and how a kid who grew up near Long Beach made the Bay Area his home. The former Warriors forward recalls when he realized a radio career might be a possibility, and his first day working with KNBR legend Ralph Barbieri. Hartlaub and Tolbert, both Alameda residents, share their opinions of island living. And Tolbert shares some memories about 7-foot-7 teammate Manute Bol.
46 min
A tribute to "Bullitt," with Heather Knight and...
As The Big Event becomes Total SF, we pay tribute to the movie "Bullitt," the Steve McQueen classic with arguably the greatest car chase in history. Host Peter Hartlaub is joined by Chronicle columnist Heather Knight and friend of the show Eric Kingsbury to talk about the San Francisco locations, why the movie has aged well and the horrible scene where Bullitt steals a San Francisco Chronicle.
45 min
"Roll Over Easy" radio hosts Chris Bunting and ...
"Roll Over Easy" is a popular radio show and podcast on the online radio station, where hosts Christopher Bunting and Luke Spray spread joy and San Francisco love every Thursday at 7:30 a.m. In their first interview since The Big Event became Total SF, hosts Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight talk to the pair about how they met, their favorite S.F. things and what (if anything) pisses them off. Produced by Peter Hartlaub. Theme song "The Tide Will Rise" by the Sunset Shipwrecks. Cable car bell-ringing by Byron Cobb
36 min
The Big Event podcast becomes Total SF
Peter Hartlaub is joined by Heather Knight to explain The Big Event podcast's transition to Total SF. All the old The Big Event episodes will remain and the general vibe of the podcast won't change, but we're doubling down on bringing you the best Bay Area characters and stories. Produced by Peter Hartlaub. Music is "The Tide Will Rise" by the Sunset Shipwrecks with cable car bell ringing by Byron Cobb.
11 min
Shea Serrano on his journalism start, favorite ...
Author and journalist Shea Serrano visits the San Francisco Chronicle to give his origin story as a writer, and talk about and his new book "Movies and Other Things." On Serrano's first visit to S.F., host Peter Hartlaub also asks him about his favorite San Francisco movies and stories of Mexican grandmothers.
49 min
Paula Poundstone on bike messenging, "M*A*S*H" ...
Paula Poundstone returns for her annual end-of-year trip to the San Francisco Chronicle archive. During the recording, right before her New Year's Eve show, Poundstone talks to host Peter Hartlaub about her year as a San Francisco bike messenger, shares some Comedy Day in the Park memories and talks about her love of the TV show "M*A*S*H" when she was a broke traveling comic.
49 min
Wendy Tokuda interview — memories of KPIX, Dave...
50 min
The greatness of "Sister Act," and a case for "...
39 min
Byron Cobb interview — SF Cable Car Bell Ringin...
38 min
Introducing ... your new 49 Mile Scenic Route
Announcing the finish of the #TotalSF reboot of the 49 Mile Scenic Drive, the 81-year-old route with the seagull signs that needed an update. Heather Knight and Peter Hartlaub talk about what they included, what they left out and why.
36 min
Pacifica Taco Bell tribute, with Paolo Lucchesi
32 min
Joey Avery and Andrew Orolfo interview — rising...
37 min
Scott Sampson interview — new Cal Academy direc...
25 min
Marc Benioff interview — on values, S.F. and hi...
38 min
49 Mile Makeover IV: Overrated Twin Peaks, with...
21 min
Leslie Sbrocco interview — The Big Event flashback
40 min
Best and worst Warriors jerseys all time, with ...
36 min
Total SF: Warriors president Rick Welts intervi...
28 min
KFOG radio tribute, with Peter Finch, Renee Ric...
50 min
Marine World Africa U.S.A. tribute — The Big Ev...
44 min
49-Mile Makeover III: What should stay and go o...
41 min
49-Mile Makeover II: Heather & Peter argue, mee...
31 min
"The Rock" tribute — SF Cinema Greatest of All ...
39 min
John Travolta interview — on fandom, history an...
28 min
Chuck Prophet interview — on music, SF and salu...
43 min
Renel Brooks-Moon interview — SF Giants public ...
49 min
49-Mile Makeover Part I: Scenic drive needs a r...
49 min
Dwight Clark tribute, with Brian Murphy, Matt M...
45 min
Ear Hustle co-hosts Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor
35 min
Sony Metreon 1999 tribute, with John King and P...
43 min
Will Durst interview — on San Francisco, and hi...
34 min
Apollo 11 moon landing tribute with David Perlman
36 min
Golden Gate Park roller skating tribute, with D...
45 min
Dan the Automator interview — on living in S.F....
44 min
Adam Savage interview — The Big Event flashback
46 min
Jerry Rice interview — The Big Event flashback
28 min
Jonas Rivera interview — "Toy Story 4" producer...
Jonas Rivera interview — "Toy Story 4" producer and Oakland A's superfan
38 min
Oracle Arena tribute, with Ann Killion and Demi...
33 min
Joe Talbot and Jimmie Fails interview — "The La...
40 min
Taron Egerton interview — "Rocketman" star talk...
23 min
Total SF Live! with Amanda Guest, Emily Silverm...
72 min
Penelope Houston interview — the Avengers singe...
52 min
"The Game" tribute — SF Cinema Greatest of all ...
47 min
Leah Garchik interview — Chronicle columnist on...
37 min
Kaseem Bentley interview — San Francisco comedi...
49 min
Art Spander interview — sports writer has cover...
39 min
The Bands We Follow — The Avett Brothers, with ...
Chronicle sports columnist Ann Killion talks with host Peter Hartlaub about her favorite band, living in Marin and how she became a journalist
42 min
Total SF: Tribute to the Richmond District, wit...
Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight record a The Big Event/San Francisco City Insider crossover podcast at the Balboa Theatre
32 min
Michael Pritchard interview — SF comedian rejec...
Comedian Michael Pritchard had a chance to be the next Robin Williams, be he chose to work with troubled kids and the homeless
45 min
"So I Married an Axe Murderer" tribute, with Au...
A tribute to the 1993 movie "So I Married an Axe Murderer," from box office bomb to classic, with Audrey Cooper, Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight
36 min
Total SF: Neighborhood theater tribute, with He...
Adam Bergeron, proprietor of the Balboa and Vogue theaters in San Francisco, joins Peter Hartlaub and Heather Knight to talk about city theaters past and present.
38 min
Soleil Ho interview - new San Francisco Chronic...
Soleil Ho talks about her first month on the job, anonymity, and what comes next, with Paolo Lucchesi and Peter Hartlaub
40 min
Total SF: Best and Worst Muni Lines, Part 1
Heather Knight and MC Allen help Peter Hartlaub break down the bus lines of San Francisco
45 min
Jesse Thorn interview - with Lee Thorn and Kevi...
"Bullseye" host and Maximum Fun podcast network owner Jesse Thorn is joined by his father, activist Lee Thorn
59 min
Tribute to S.F. Snow Day 1976 - History and Sto...
The last snow in San Francisco was Feb. 5, 1976. Bill Fox, Bill Van Niekerken and host Peter Hartlaub discuss that day.
43 min