Theologian Stanley Hauerwas has written some of the most influential books on religion in the 20th century. But behind closed doors, he was suffering more than most of us knew. Here, Kate and Stanley talk candidly about his rollercoaster highs and lows of being married to someone with severe mental illness. And why doesn’t God fix our pain? They have some spicy opinions about that. In this episode, Kate and Stanley discuss: Why Christians are not exempt from difficult circumstances Why people need fewer explanations (and why Stanley is suspicious of anyone who demands them) Stanley’s advice for going through something difficult CW: bipolar, mental illness

Melissa Urban’s (CEO of The Whole30) experience of chronic illness forced her to accept her body’s limitations. You are going to love her practical advice for setting healthy boundaries as a way to protect our relationships, manage our limited capacity (especially for those of us navigating chronic pain or illness or caregiving), and remind ourselves of our inherent worth (regardless of how much you can do). In this episode, Kate and Melissa discuss: How boundaries help us better live inside our limitations The signs that a better boundary is needed How to manage the awkwardness of saying no How the Spoon Theory helps us understand limited capacity CW: sexual abuse, addiction

Writer Jeff Chu was raised in a devout Chinese Baptist community, yet struggled to reconcile being gay with the conservative faith of his family. And the feeling of not-quite-belonging gave his life a strong purpose. He became a journalist and a pastor determined to make communities a place where you don’t actually have to “fit in” to belong. In this episode, Kate and Jeff discuss navigating certainty and doubt when ambiguity is so uncomfortable, why great resumes sometimes mask lives of pain, and how Jeff has discovered grace for himself and his family (and others who many have different versions of faithfulness).

Writer Mary Laura Philpott had all the regular kind of parental worries until her teenage son had his first seizure. She had to learn to balance her fear alongside her love all the while recognizing that everyone has something they are dealing with. In this episode, Kate and Mary Laura discuss why love sometimes makes us afraid for all we have to lose, why remembering that “everyone has something” can make us feel less alone (and more likely to bring snacks), and why worry isn’t the mental work we think it is.

Thomas Lynch is an essayist, poet, and funeral director in Milton, Michigan, where he has served since 1974 when he took over the trade from his father. Thomas speaks honestly about life and death and mortality from what he’s learned, standing so close to the edge. In this episode, Kate and Thomas discuss what elements make up a good funeral, how the habits of love are hard to break, and how those we grieve know our hearts and our love more fully. I don’t know quite how to express this, but holy crap. This is one of the best conversations I’ve ever had. I can’t wait to hear what you think. CW: suicide, death

Arthur Brooks was a professional musician and spent his twenties touring all over the world. Until one day, he stopped being able to hit the notes. He had to reinvent himself entirely, and wonder… what does happiness look like after I lose the career I had worked so hard for? Now, Arthur writes about high achievers and how they might find meaning and purpose as they experience decline in their bodies or minds or in careers through his bestselling book, Strength to Strength. Not everyone in this community is #winning at life. For those of us who have been forced off the productivity train, fallen down the success ladder, and now find ourselves wondering if we could be more than the sum of our jobs, this conversation is for you.

Many of us miss the churches of our childhood and are trying to figure out what pieces of our faith to keep and which to leave behind. My guest today knows that better than anyone. Randall Balmer is a historian of American religion at Dartmouth College, THE expert of American evangelicalism, and a pastor’s kid (PK!) of a fundamentalist preacher. In this conversation, Kate and Randy talk about: how to reconcile the evangelism of today with its progressive past, the cost of a more manufactured worship experience, why they both value those stray moments of faith, what (if any) hope is there for evangelicalism, and maintaining faith when you’ve been hurt by the church. Kate ends with a blessing for when faith sometimes breaks your heart.

Ibram Kendi and Kate Bowler have more in common than they would have liked. Historians and professors. Parents of young kids. Diagnosed with Stage IV colon cancer at age 35. No history of the disease in their families. In this conversation, Dr. Ibram Kendi (who Time magazine’s called one of the most influential people of 2020) and Kate discuss: How a diagnosis like the one they share creates a sense of urgency in their work, How to address the policies behind health care disparities, Why addressing racism with your kids is an act of courageous living, The importance of recognizing our own fragility, and Learning to celebrate scars as evidence of life.

So often people want us to say the easy thing like something terrible happens and we're supposed to say "everything happens for a reason." Or "it made me who I am today." We find ourselves surrounded by a culture who loves us for our positive mindset or our willingness to buy essential oils from our cousin named Jennifer. But on this podcast, we're going to do something different. There will be no easy answers. There will be no trite, Precious Moments type wisdom. They'll just be suggestions of how to live and breathe and walk through the things that we didn't really want to carry.

In this special episode, Kate visited the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, at Lambeth Palace in London. In this funny and poignant conversation, the Archbishop and Kate discuss: Why sometimes we feel God’s love (or don’t) How to pray when you have run out of words (he gives us permission to be impolite with God) Why he is suspicious of joy, and why they both use the theology of Winnie the Pooh How people in emotionally expensive professions can feel permission to do small acts of love (and angry when it’s not enough)

How is it that joy and pain seem to coexist at once? Susan Cain (author of the bestseller Quiet) explores this question in her new book, Bittersweet. In this conversation, Kate and Susan discuss: How we are literally hardwired for compassion Susan’s advice for pushing back against compassion fatigue How that feeling of longing isn’t something to be ashamed of but allows us to see things clearly—the beautiful and the terrible If you ever feel like you didn’t have a word for the sweetness of longings (and why your compassionate heart is a gift), this conversation is for you.

When a random weight-lifting accident left cardiologist Dr. Haider Warrach in chronic pain, he went from being a physician to being a patient in one moment. His experience of chronic pain gives him a hardwon insight as he reexamines how we understand and treat pain. In this conversation, Kate and Haider discuss: the difference between pain and suffering why pain might be subjective, yet should be taken just as seriously (and perhaps invites doctors to not just treat blood work or an x-ray, but the patient in front of them) why we should erase the arbitrary demarkations between mind and body when it comes to understanding and treating chronic pain the value of accepting the reality of pain as a fundamental truth of being human (and why that doesn’t mean “it’s all in your head”) If you are someone (or loves someone) who suffers from chronic pain, this episode is for you. Haider talks with such gentleness about when your pain isn’t believed and how doctors can do a better job at treating their patients in pain.

What do we do when our families are sources of pain, confusion, or harm? How do we (or can we) outgrow our complicated childhoods when we no longer need the defenses we created? Today, I am speaking with Tara Westover. Tara earned her PhD in history from Cambridge, which is incredible on its own, but particularly when you remember that she had never stepped foot in a classroom until she was 17. She is the author of the bestselling memoir EDUCATED which describes growing up in a survivalist family and her costly pursuit of learning and unlearning.

Our culture seems convinced that going off-script is unbecoming. Instead, we are rewarded for being buttoned up, perfect (or at least appearing to be), and never ever no-matter-what admit weakness. But… don’t we need each other, especially when facing the most difficult moments? Author and Death, Sex, and Money podcast host Anna Sale leans into every hard conversation no matter how difficult the topic. In this conversation, Kate and Anna discuss how conversations might engender the intimacy we need to get by, fostering the right interpersonal and listening skills it takes to approach a difficult topic (especially when you’re feeling nervous), best practices for responding to someone’s hard news, and how learning to listen might bridge differences of all kinds. What do we lose when we don’t talk about hard things? And what might we gain if we do?

We often have very romantic expectations about parenthood. Parenthood is about a mythical child who will be perfect in a way we haven’t quite put our finger on, and the journey to love them will teach us something reasonably easy about ourselves. But what if we are not the parents we thought we’d be? Or our kids are not the kids we thought we’d have Writer Cammie McGovern’s oldest son, Ethan, was diagnosed with autism as a small child. Soon though, he was not just a toddler learning how to play or a child needing adjustments in the classroom. He is an adult who wants to participate in the world, and Cammie is still determined to learn what it means to be an advocate for him and others living with disabilities as they enter adulthood. In this conversation, Kate and Cammie discuss the myths parents of children with autism might face, how to build inclusive communities (and how both parties might benefit from them), how the role of every parent is to discover their kid for the mystery and wonder they are, and why parenting shouldn’t always be about becoming heroes or martyrs and how we might need communities and systems that better support our needs. This heartwarming conversation covers everything from love to policy and everything in between, as Cammie describes her son and his future. CW: children with autism

Bestselling author Mitch Albom was at the height of his career when his favorite professor was dying. Mitch then spent his Tuesdays with Morrie—conversations that would change the trajectory of his life and career. Mitch continues to walk right up to the edge with the complicated questions around grief, loss, and hope in his books and charitable work. In this conversation, Kate and Mitch discuss why the loss of a child feels so different than the loss of someone farther along in years, what questions we ask of God when we encounter death (and why we might not get the answers we hope for), and how we might count our somethings (our people, our blessings) without imagining that God is teaching us “a lesson”.

Bestselling novelist Ann Patchett knows how to walk right up to the edge with people she loves. She is the friend who sits with you during chemo, or lets you spill your secrets in the car. She shares what powerful lessons she learned early on about how to approach suffering with humility, knowing you can rarely change a life, but you can be there to witness and be amazed. In this episode, Kate and Ann discuss why no one cares what you write about (and why that should give you freedom), how to bear witness to someone’s life—even when you can’t change their circumstances, and why the question of the fullness of a life isn’t how long you live but something else entirely. CW: addiction, death of friends, cancer

Everyone loves to get VERY BOSSY when it comes to our fears. “Don’t worry, be happy!” Just be brave! But maybe ‘being brave’ doesn’t mean ignoring our fears but living alongside them. After all, we live in a world that offers us few guarantees, don’t we? Writer Taylor Harris has dealt with severe anxiety since she was a child. But when she became a mom, she had to learn to hold her fears alongside her love, especially when her son has an unsolvable illness. In this conversation, Kate and Taylor discuss balancing fear with love, what it means to be brave in a world that is so unsafe (and how to parent kids you can’t protect from everything), how to live in the uncertainty of a non-diagnosis, and how to make sense of God and faith without guarantees that things will work out. This conversation will give you courage to hold both your faith and fear, hope and disappointment, especially when we don’t have problems with simple solutions. CW: a sick child without a diagnosis

Author and priest Liz Tichenor lost her mom and her baby in the same year. Brand new to leading a church and reeling from the grief, the pain was enough to break her. But it didn’t—because other people carried her through. In this conversation, Kate and Liz discuss how in the thick of tragedy we need the church and shared rituals of grief, how to be faithful and authentic when going through the “unimaginable," the courage it takes to show up for another in the midst of their worst days (and why we are called to do so… no matter how uncomfortable), why Lent is the season for the brokenhearted. This episode will restore your hope for communities of faith that can show up for our most tender moments.

Poet Kate Baer found herself inundated with the demands of motherhood and little time to write. Nothing was easy and then, at a breaking point, it felt impossible. If she wanted a creative life, she was going to have to redefine “perfection” (perfect mom! perfect woman!) and learn to tolerate a lot more imperfection instead. On this episode of Kate & Kate, they discuss how friendships give permission to speak honestly (and why your friendships are actually important), why not every experience (motherhood, marriage) is “fulfilling,” how they each went off-script to find meaning, and Kate Baer’s great love for Panera Bread. CW: postpartum depression

Rick Mercer didn’t exactly know he was allowed to be proud. As a teenager, he was barely making it through high school and traveling the island province of Newfoundland, Canada, as the sidekick to a kindly clown. But being an outsider gave him a unique perspective. His razor wit, biting political commentary, and celebration of small town dreams would make him one of Canada’s most beloved voices. Together, Kate and Rick talk about: Their shared love of being Canadian (and why the Meech Lake Accord was so funny) The rather unhelpful suggestions people offer one another Why it feels so good to be proud of people doing what they love This episode is sure to make you laugh (even if the Canadian references go over your head) and feel proud to be where you’re from—no matter how obscure.

Katie Couric is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author. Her hustle and ambition not only served her career aspirations, but when faced with the unthinkable, she poured those same qualities into tireless advocacy. In this conversation, Katie and Kate discuss, The gifts (and limits) of hyper-agency The courage it takes to not fix things Why it is so scary to acknowledge our limits and our losses Katie has so much to teach us about what happens when our problems cannot be easily solved—no matter how hard we try. In this vulnerable conversation, Katie shares candidly about the lengths she went to avoid grief, but why she had to learn to face it nonetheless. We need the courage to try (and the wisdom to stop).

My name is Kate Bowler, and I'm a professor at Duke, a writer of some books that have joyfully sarcastic titles, wife, and mom of a boy that is mostly made up of giant flashlight eyeballs and the kind of Canadian that reminds you that she is Canadian this quickly into the conversation. On the road, less traveled. I took the bumpy one, the kind with those giant moguls. At 35, I was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. So I have spent a lot of time trying not to die while living in a world that is drunk on the idea that everything will always work out if you are extremely cheerful. We might not have fewer problems, but we can make each other's lives more bearable when we let go of the embarrassment of not having it together. And then we can begin to feel the love and hope and truth that can be found right here where we are together. I would love it if you joined me. New episodes begin on February 1st. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so you don’t miss an episode.

How do we reach for wisdom instead of self-help solutions? Much to their embarrassment, New York Times columnist David Brooks and Kate Bowler often find their books in the “Self-Help section.” David sat down with Kate at the historic Sixth & I Synagogue in Washington, D.C. to talk about her book, No Cure For Being Human, and the twisty-turny journey of living without easy answers. In this live, funny and poignant conversation, David and Kate discuss: If a life is ever complete How to define hope if it isn’t just a type of optimism The limits of stoicism What I wish healthcare professionals would do instead And you cannot miss David’s unplanned pun at the beginning. It was so bad and so funny and nothing can be better.